Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (2:06)

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save 25%@LG.com with code fall25. Bring the boom x boom. BBC studios.

Maggie Robinson Katz (2:42)

Hey, I'm Maggie. Before we begin, I just want to flag that this episode includes some very strong language, contains some descriptions of violence and deals with adult themes.

Anthony (3:01)

We have a large painting of a astronaut laying in a field of roses and we bought it while we were in the US while I was working on SpaceX's first crewed flights, which is a huge, huge milestone.

Maggie Robinson Katz (3:16)

Can you speak a little bit about what you did at SpaceX?

Anthony (3:19)

So I was part of the software team and worked on, well, across the time there. Worked on everything from the flight vehicles, like, you know, launching Falcon, Dragon and so on, and myself and a few of the other.

Maggie Robinson Katz (3:30)

It's another drizzly and cold day in London. Okay, to be fair, it's January, but still, I'm sitting across from Liz and her husband, Anthony. American versus English question, Anthony or Anthony? What's the difference?

Liz (3:48)

Okay, so he says Anthony. I guess that's the British way of saying it. But I say Anthony because do you.

Maggie Robinson Katz (3:56)

Ever just like, ugh, I'm just gonna call you Tony.

Liz (3:58)

He hates that. He hates that so much.

Maggie Robinson Katz (4:01)

Oh, I won't call him Tone.

Liz (4:03)

Yeah, Or Ant. He doesn't like that one either. But I did get an ant tattoo. Cut.

Maggie Robinson Katz (4:09)

Cute. I love it. I'll follow Liz. Anthony it is. Anthony continues telling me about working with.

Anthony (4:16)

SpaceX through manufacturing satellites and the terminal to build the Starlink network. And, yeah, lots of different software problems over the four years.

Maggie Robinson Katz (4:24)

Amazing. I play in a Dolly Parton cover band.

Anthony (4:30)

I'm not very musical. I wouldn't be able to do that.

Maggie Robinson Katz (4:33)

He's being nice. But after getting to know Liz, it's clear she needs to be with someone as brilliant as Dirac, tramp stamp and all. Liz and Anthony met when they were teens. Anthony was working at a pub in Oxford and Liz was visiting with a cousin. He was smitten.

Anthony (4:52)

Immediately, I remember thinking Liz was the most beautiful girl I'd ever seen, very distinctly. Which, yeah, she would cringe if I told that story. And here we are. But, yeah, really captivated by her.

Maggie Robinson Katz (5:03)

Liz does cringe when Anthony says this, letting out a soft laugh under her breath. Anthony and Liz stayed in touch, took a trip through Italy together, where they fell in love, then later married and had kids. They're now settled in a cute Victorian townhouse in Wimbledon, South London. The robot Anthony and their son built on the bookshelf, a Rubik's Cube stashed between couch cushions. Anthony has been there through every moment in Liz's life, including the moment she found out her dad had been killed.

Anthony (5:41)

I just remember shock. It's just like kind of like getting hit by a car. You just have this thing come at you, this piece of information that you couldn't have expected, and you're out of your reference frame for, like, what normal is. All of this stuff happened at once. And it was like a very super chaotic time. Yeah, it was pure chaos.

Maggie Robinson Katz (6:01)

He flew back to Houston with Liz and did his best to support her through those first harrowing days.

Anthony (6:07)

It's like extreme grief, like overwhelming shock that this is real and not some horrible nightmare. And it's just sort of an extended waking disaster where everyone is reeling in different ways at different times.

Maggie Robinson Katz (6:22)

I ask what he thinks about the case.

Anthony (6:25)

I would say it's unambiguous to me that she's wrongly convicted. And it's overwhelmingly obvious that this. It shouldn't have gone the way that it did. And to have gone through everything, you know, the years leading up to the court case, the court case itself, it's staggering that this level of incompetence was allowed to be played out. And it really demonstrates that you can do everything right and you can get. And that's what happened here. And Sandy just tried to do everything correctly.

Maggie Robinson Katz (7:02)

He's angry at a system that has taken Sandy away from her family for a crime he believes she didn't commit.

Anthony (7:10)

When you kind of think about your life, like a change like that is just such a fracture to the way that things happen. Right. Normally you would have been going back for, you know, family events, reunions, holidays, whatever it might be. And things look different after. They look different for you, they look different for your kids, they look different for the extended family. And, yeah, he's just kind of like dealing with a new reality. Kind of. After a loss like that, how do you.

Maggie Robinson Katz (7:34)

How do you even process the loss? It's multiple losses.

Anthony (7:38)

Yeah, it is. Even now I think about it. So, you know, I think about, like, the children don't have the life that they would have had otherwise. And knowing him, knowing Jim as their grandfather. Yeah, it's difficult. I think now of, like, there's things that I do today that I know that he would have been interested in. And you kind of missed the dynamic that could have been.

Maggie Robinson Katz (8:00)

Which is a sentiment I completely understand. Grieving a reality that never came, but you were promised it. I remember thinking this after my dad died, if I had kids, they would never know their grandpa. And while Sandy is Still alive, their kids can't spend any time with her.

Anthony (8:21)

You know, I see a very direct pain in my daughter. So she was young enough to have had Sandy around early on in her life and be a significant figure that is still a significant figure today. But it's very difficult for her to talk about it, to think about it, to write letters because of very acute pain.

Maggie Robinson Katz (8:40)

But he says it's Liz who carries the pain most acutely. She's changed so much over the past few years.

Anthony (8:49)

When we first moved to England, you know, Liz would be the person who would talk to the stranger on the train and then, you know, by the time you get to the destination, you're going to a party with them, whereas I would be the person who's like, noise canceling, headphones on, don't even talk to me, let alone sit near me. So that dynamic definitely changed for her because, you know, everything that she experienced.

Maggie Robinson Katz (9:11)

Liz has told me about this past version of herself, and she often talks about how her life has split in two. There's the Liz before Jim's murder and the Liz after, where the Liz before was vivacious and gregarious. The Liz now is closed off, agoraphobic, and can have trouble getting out of bed. But in meeting Liz, I can see both sides. I think she is whip smart, funny and mischievous. We'd laugh together on her couch or on a trip on the tube. But during the making of this podcast, I experienced my own loss. My mother, who long suffered from Parkinson's and later dementia, passed away this year. And out of all of the messages I got, it was Liz who I felt understood the indescribable pain of losing a parent the most. She sent me the most beautiful messages filled with empathy because she walks this grief every single day. And in many ways, she's lost both of her parents. Liz really didn't have to do that, but nonetheless, I'm grateful. It's really hard to talk about death, but it is something that can unite us. While I don't know the exact pain Liz went through, I can understand through my own a tiny sliver of her pain. And I mean really, really tiny sliver. Because whether you believe that Sandy is innocent or guilty, you cannot ignore the immense loss that permeates every facet of the story. But the story isn't over yet.

Anthony (11:03)

I feel incredibly appreciative that you have an organization like the Innocence Project supporting you, because, frankly speaking, to try and deal with this yourself like it feels impossible. It just feels like you resigned to accept that you've been crushed. So you do feel hope?

Liz (11:19)

Yeah, I feel like there's a little glimmer of hope. We might not get the results we want, but at least we had the heavyweights behind us and at least it gives us a fighting chance.

Maggie Robinson Katz (11:32)

I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC Studios and I Heart Podcasts, this is hands tied Episode 8 Hope.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (11:48)

Straight Arrow News Find facts and context you've been craving. Quickly find trusted information you need to understand the news. Watch what you want when you want. Catch up on the news at home or on the go with your own news queue. Dive deep into the topics that matter to you and the world around you. Navigate everything you need to know about the topics shaping your world. Understand how every side of the political spectrum is reporting on a story so you get a full picture of the news. Welcome back to trustworthy journalism. San.com There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on.

Maggie Robinson Katz (12:21)

Top of it all?

Straight Arrow News Announcer (12:22)

Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new Day Daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (12:32)

Where do you see the business actually heading?

Straight Arrow News Announcer (12:34)

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co Editor in Chief Cynthia Littleton.

Maggie Robinson Katz (12:40)

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (12:43)

Open your free iHeartradio app, search daily Variety and listen now.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (12:48)

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save 25% at LG.com with code fall25. Bring the boom XBoom hey it's Brian Christopher. Ready to chill this summer? You're in luck. I'm hanging out at Champa Casino and.

Maggie Robinson Katz (13:25)

You'Re in for a treat.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (13:27)

Chillax. With hundreds of games, daily bonuses, exciting spins and epic prizes. It's all here. Always free to play, kick back, have fun and head to chumbacasino.com let's make the summer legendary. Sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary VGW Group Void where prohibited by law CT and CS21 plus.

Maggie Robinson Katz (13:48)

We see you listening to your podcast, picking at your split ends wondering is my hair really thinning? It's no mystery. Over time, cheap shampoos can weaken hair. The solve mowry. You could get less shed and more fuller looking hair in time for the holidays with your mystery date now first time customers receive 50% off their first order. Take the quiz for a tailored recommendation at a life that's carefree, needs hair that's worry free. Have both with Mowry. Results can vary. Mowry is not a substitute for medical advice. See website for more.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (14:24)

The Innocence Project of Texas is a nonprofit that I co founded back in 20092006 and ultimately we strive to exonerate the innocent people that we have identified and get them out of prison.

Maggie Robinson Katz (14:42)

This is Mike Ware, who, after getting a call from Sandy's legal team, started to review her case. He dove headfirst into Sandy's file, reviewing the various appeals court transcripts. He talked to Liz and met Sandy and has come to the conclusion that.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (15:01)

The accusations were unique and on their face. To me, ridiculous and preposterous.

Maggie Robinson Katz (15:09)

Why do you think the jury then believed it?

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (15:13)

Sometimes I think people prefer to believe the more elaborate and interesting story rather than the more logical and perhaps less interesting story. Perhaps it was more attractive to believe this crazy story that the prosecutors spun than it was to believe that someone or somebody invaded the home and committed this murder.

Maggie Robinson Katz (15:40)

So Mike and the Innocence Project of Texas agree to take on Sandy's case. But it's not going to be easy.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (15:49)

Despite all the rhetoric, it is so much easier to convict a completely innocent person than it is to exonerate a completely innocent person once they've been convicted.

Maggie Robinson Katz (16:01)

It's almost a Sisyphean task to try and get a jury verdict overturned. The only option left is for them to file a writ of habeas corpus, which is essentially asking a federal court to review Sandy's case because they believe that she is unfairly imprisoned. To succeed, they need to come up with clear and convincing new evidence. They can't rehash arguments made during the trial or appeal.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (16:27)

There are only very limited grounds you can raise in a habeas corpus. It's very tricky to even get heard because as the courts will tell you time and time again, you know, finality of judgment is very important to our system. Us.

Maggie Robinson Katz (16:44)

The odds are stacked against them, and Mike knows this. While the prosecution may have told a better story, that Sandy was a bitter housewife who killed Jim, tied and locked herself in a closet, Mike and his team hope that science will tell a different story, and they're relying on DNA.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (17:08)

Originally, investigators collected over 100 items of evidence to be tested for DNA.

Maggie Robinson Katz (17:13)

This is Mike's colleague, attorney Chase Baumgartner, who also happens to be a forensic.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (17:19)

Scientist, part of this investigation we're doing now, and part of the story of Sandy's case is the evolution of DNA testing.

Maggie Robinson Katz (17:29)

On the night Jim's body was found, the police swapped the crime scene for DNA. They also bagged up evidence for further testing, like the cord used to tie Sandy up clothing and the murder weapon. But the test results were inconclusive.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (17:48)

They generated all this data, and in most instances, they just said it's too complicated, it's too low level. So we can't tell you anything about the DNA profiles we developed. And has left us kind of in the dark of what all this evidence really points to and what it could.

Maggie Robinson Katz (18:05)

Implicate, meaning it's either a sample with too many people's DNA mixed together or a sample without enough DNA in it. The original testing was done more than a decade ago, and science has progressed since then. Now the Innocence Project of Texas is getting the samples reanalyzed in the hope this will throw up something new, possibly the new evidence they need to get Sandy's case back in court. And they've got news. They ask Liz to jump on a call.

Liz (18:36)

I'm really looking forward to hearing this.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (18:46)

Liz.

Liz (18:47)

Hi. How are you?

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (18:48)

Good. How are you doing?

Liz (18:49)

I'm all right, thank you.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (18:50)

Well, thank you for joining us. I think we'll get started by letting Chase catch you up on some of the new, in my opinion, very promising findings that we've gotten through additional DNA analysis.

Maggie Robinson Katz (19:06)

Liz lets me listen in on her call with the Innocence Project of Texas. They've reanalyzed some of the DNA samples and discovered something interesting on a knife that was found submerged at the bottom of the Jacuzzi.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (19:20)

The murder weapon, your dad's DNA, was found on the knife originally.

Liz (19:25)

Yeah.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (19:25)

But what we did do is we went to a new lab that specializes in low level data, and they were able to determine it for sure is a mixture of at least two people. They actually think it's best described as a mixture of two people and agree that it still is your dad's DNA on there. But they found an unknown DNA profile on that knife handle, and they compared it to your whole family, to your mom, to you, to your relatives and everything. And no matches. Everyone was excluded.

Maggie Robinson Katz (19:54)

So according to this new analysis, there are two people's DNA on the murder weapon. There's Jim's DNA and there's someone else's, someone that isn't Sandy.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (20:06)

The fact there's an unknown person who's not her, who's not Jim, who's not a family member, who's not a neighbor who's not on this murder weapon. Supports her theory, potentially even proves her theory that an unknown person was wielding this knife when they killed Jim.

Maggie Robinson Katz (20:25)

This is a game changer. In Mike Ware's view, this could be the missing evidence they need to get Sandy's case reexamined.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (20:34)

We don't know whose DNA it is, but it is definitely not hers. So it's highly likely that whoever last touched that murder weapon handle is the real perpetrator, and that person is not your mom. I think that alone almost certainly would have changed the outcome of the trial. So, Liz, just kind of as a quick refresher. Right. I guess there's a lot of information to take in and try to digest.

Maggie Robinson Katz (21:05)

Mike and Chase explain to Liz that they asked the lab to check if that unknown profile appears anywhere else in the crime scene. And it does. Showing up on a stool found outside of the closet where Jim was found.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (21:20)

Do you know the shower stool I'm talking about?

Liz (21:22)

Yeah, there's like a blood. Blood mark on it.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (21:26)

Yeah, exactly. And that is consistent with whoever touched that knife handle or whoever held that knife handle. So I think that, you know, there's a pretty strong connection between who was involved in this case, but the problem is we don't know who that is at this point.

Liz (21:43)

Yeah, that's a lot of information to take in. So what now? What, like, what do we do with all this information? Where do we, you know, how do we move forward from here?

Maggie Robinson Katz (21:51)

At this stage, they don't know whose DNA it is, but it's still a huge development, and Chase remains hopeful.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (22:01)

I think DNA could be the clincher for Sandy's case because it shows the state's theory that there was no one else in the house is false. The whole theory was based on that. There was no forced entry. There's only two people here. It's only Sandy, it's only Jim, and there's only one person alive. So it had to be Sandy. And the DNA shows that's a lie.

Liz (22:24)

So what, like, how long? I know. Like, this is more of a marathon than a sprint, right? We've already been here. Like, my mom's already been in prison for years.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (22:34)

Well, using that metaphor, yeah, there's some truth to that. Let's be optimistic, though. Let's say it's more like a 10k than a sprint.

Liz (22:43)

Do you believe in justice? Do you think that is something that is actually obtainable or given out by what is commonly referred to as the criminal justice system? Because to me, it feels like A penal system. It feels like a legal system. It doesn't really feel like a justice system. And I don't know if I'm just super jaded, but I was just wondering if you really do believe in justice, since, you know, you've dedicated your life to this project.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (23:07)

I can understand how you would feel that way, but the answer is, yes, I absolutely do. I think the truth has a power all its own, and I think it will eventually surface if you stick with the case. Not to sound hokey or corny, but the truth has a way of being able to claw its way out of a hole and climb out into the daylight. The pursuit of justice. I'm not sure there's a nobler pursuit, at least for me, to have enough faith in the power of the truth and the power of the pursuit to keep fighting day in and day out for it.

Liz (23:41)

Thank you. I appreciate that. And the time and energy that you've expended not only on this case, but for other people who are in similar positions.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (23:51)

Well, we appreciate you, Liz. Thank you.

Maggie Robinson Katz (23:58)

Can I ask you, Liz, how does it feel hearing all this new information? And how do you think your mom would feel hearing it?

Liz (24:05)

I just don't have any expectation that this is just how it is. And so if things don't go well, then I wasn't expecting it. And if things do go well, then it's even better, right, Because I wasn't expecting anything. So for me, I'm just waiting. I have information, and I'm gonna wait until I have more. My mom, however, gets her hopes up very easily. And so I have to do a lot of talking to make sure that she tempers her expectations and that she understands that time is going to crawl. I think she'll be. I think this will give her the extra, like, bit of hope that she might need to, you know, make it in person for a little longer, however long it might be.

Maggie Robinson Katz (24:59)

And more than anything else, this family needs hope. And they are not giving up. Offering a $100,000 reward for any new information regarding Sandy's case that would prove her innocence.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (25:19)

Straight arrow news. Find facts and context you've been craving. Quickly find trusted information you need to understand the news. Watch what you want when you want. Catch up on the news at home or on the go with your own news queue. Dive deep into the topics that matter to you and the world around you. Navigate everything you need to know about the topics shaping your world. Understand how every side of the political spectrum is reporting on a story so you get a full Picture of the news. Welcome back to trustworthy journalism. San.com There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on.

Maggie Robinson Katz (25:52)

Top of it all?

Straight Arrow News Announcer (25:53)

Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (26:03)

Where do you see the business actually?

Straight Arrow News Announcer (26:05)

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co editor in Chief Cynthia Littleton.

Maggie Robinson Katz (26:11)

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (26:14)

Open your free iHeartradio app, search daily Variety and listen now. Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (26:22)

And bring the boom.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (26:24)

Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (26:31)

Elevate your listening experience to new heights.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (26:34)

Because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save 25% at LG.com with code Fall25. Bring the Boom XBoom Looking for excitement? Jumba Casino is here. Play anytime.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (26:54)

Play anywhere.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (26:54)

Play on the train.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (26:55)

Play at the store.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (26:56)

Play at home. Play when you're bored. Play today for your chance to win.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (26:59)

And get daily bonuses when you log in. So what are you waiting for? Don't delay.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (27:03)

Chumba Casino is free to play.

Maggie Robinson Katz (27:05)

Experience social gameplay like never before. Go to Chumba Casino right now to play hundreds of games including online slots, Slingo and more. Live the chumba life@chumbacasino.com no purchase necessary.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (27:16)

VGW Group void we're prohibited by Law21. Terms and conditions apply.

Maggie Robinson Katz (27:19)

We see you listening to your podcast, picking at your split ends, wondering, is my hair really thinning? It's no mystery. Over time, cheap shampoos can weaken hair. The solve Mowry. You could get less shed and more fuller looking hair in time for the holidays with your mystery date. Now first time customers receive 50% off their first order. Take the quiz for a tailored recommendation at a life that's carefree, needs hair that's worry free. Have both with Mowry. Results can vary. Mowry is not a substitute for medical advice. See website for more.

Anthony (27:56)

So today we are marking the size of a traditional tattoo. Tattoos were really important, really special in our culture, but they were banned when we were colonized, so we're trying to keep the tradition, you know. Anyways, in a good way.

Maggie Robinson Katz (28:14)

I'm crouched somewhere between the bed and a stool in tattoo artist Adam's flat in London. Liz is here with me. Though I may have toyed with the idea of getting One as well. I'm really here to watch as Liz adds another piece to her inked altar.

Liz (28:33)

Like, around here, maybe right above the blue. Like, right on the blue or. Yeah, that's good.

Anthony (28:39)

Like, from there today.

Liz (28:40)

And again, it's part of, like, the whippy that my grandmother wore.

Anthony (28:44)

So do you have any picture of the.

Liz (28:47)

It's just a red. Plain red.

Maggie Robinson Katz (28:56)

Adam makes a quick sketch with a blue pen, creating a stencil that he then places on Liz's wrist.

Anthony (29:03)

So what do you think about this repetition of the stars? Yeah, they also represent flowers as well. And the four directions.

Maggie Robinson Katz (29:11)

Most of the time, he moves her hand left and right, seeing how the pattern changes, shifts, and changes with motion. The star is based on a piece of fabric Liz brought back from her dad's village in Guatemala.

Liz (29:24)

They take hours, hundreds of hours to shoot. I mean, months.

Maggie Robinson Katz (29:28)

Weaving.

Liz (29:28)

Yeah, weaving. It's all done by hand. It's all done on these backstrap blooms. They spin their own cotton. They use natural dyes. There's one plant that I can't remember which one it is, but depending on when in the cycle of the moon, it's. It's been picked and processed. It can be, like a deep purple or it can be a lavender color, and anywhere in between, it's. I don't know. I think it's just, like, really cool that they had all this knowledge.

Anthony (30:00)

Yes. It's a whole process. Right, I got it. I got it.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (30:06)

Right.

Maggie Robinson Katz (30:08)

So can you walk me through what you're doing right now?

Anthony (30:12)

Right now I'm just choosing the right size for this tattoo of needles.

Liz (30:18)

Yeah, just that.

Anthony (30:22)

And because it's gonna be hand poked, I need to use these needles over here.

Maggie Robinson Katz (30:28)

He takes a sterile needle out of its packaging and tapes a colorful macaw feather in the. Into the bamboo cane holding the needle. He then picks up a headdress made of these brilliant macaw feathers and deep teals, bright blues and vibrant purples, and wraps it around his head.

Anthony (30:47)

You've seen these headbands before, right? So we use them in the head as a connection, you know, with the. With the symbology and the ceremonial side as well. It's good to use it in a ceremony like this. Please stand up for me, please. Like over there.

Maggie Robinson Katz (31:06)

He lights a piece of copal, a resin from the Mexican copal tree, and swirls the aromatic smoke all around Liz while she stands with her eyes closed.

Anthony (31:16)

And now you can clean your face with the smoke by washing it.

Maggie Robinson Katz (31:21)

She uses her hands to brush the smoke up over her head and shoulders.

Anthony (31:26)

Also, take this move. Wherever you feel pain in your body. You're gonna say everywhere, right?

Maggie Robinson Katz (31:32)

Yeah.

Anthony (31:33)

Just be careful. It's really hot. All right, now we're ready. Come and sit down with me over here.

Maggie Robinson Katz (31:41)

Liz outstretches her wrist as he dips the needle into the deep red ink. The tattoo will be done by hand, dot by dot, a pointilless painting on skin.

Liz (31:54)

I mean, it shows who my dad was or where he came from, so that's important to me. You know, I think I didn't appreciate it when I was a kid, and now it's something I'm immensely proud of and very vocal about.

Maggie Robinson Katz (32:11)

As Adam presses the needle into Liz's wrist, I see her body begin to relax, as if the tension from the day, maybe years, temporarily releases.

Liz (32:22)

Today was a rough day. I definitely didn't want to leave my bed or my house today, but I definitely did want to get this done. Sometimes my brain just takes over and nothing helps. So, yeah, I think that's just trauma.

Maggie Robinson Katz (32:43)

Yeah, it's hard when your brain lies to you.

Liz (32:46)

Yeah, I'm constantly in fight or flight, so it's exhausting.

Maggie Robinson Katz (32:55)

Liz has a lot of tattoos, many of them with meaning, but this one seems quite special. A talisman against those dark days, you.

Liz (33:06)

Know, just something to kind of help me keep going when stuff gets hard. Yeah, and it's just like, really nice that I was able to meet up with somebody who is able to do this in a way that is kind of like the way that our ancestors would have done.

Maggie Robinson Katz (33:28)

Not only honoring her dad, Jim, but her own spirit, the spirit of a fighter. And being a fighter runs down the generations in Liz's family.

Liz (33:38)

And so it's a way to remember the struggle, not just of my grandmother, but, like, also our ancestors. And, yeah, that's just kind of a way to remind myself, like, my problems are not anywhere near what they experienced. You know, food insecurity or just general violence. It's important to me to remind myself that my problems are not nearly that bad.

Maggie Robinson Katz (34:12)

The tiny dots begin to form into a beautiful, textured, flowing shape around her wrist. A natural fit, as if she's had it for years. And as I watch each new dot pluck into her skin, I imagine each piece of Liz's journey and her enduring fight to free her mom and grieve her dad. I think about my own loss and the complexity of life, but grateful for the strength Liz has shown me in our short time together and her tenacity to keep fighting. While we may never know the answer to Jim's murder and wherever you stand on Sandy's guilt or innocence, I think we can all agree if anything bad were to happen to you, you'd want someone like Liz on your side of the ring. It's been nearly 13 years since Jim died and Liz had to turn into an investigator instead of a grieving daughter. After all that time, she's exhausted, wants to give up, but somehow tries to fight another day. As I look closer at the tattoo nearly complete, it starts to remind me of something else. The twisting linear strands and repeating double helix of the building blocks of all life DNA. And I can't help but wonder if DNA will be the key to unlock the rest of Liz's story. But I guess for now we'll just have to wait and see.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (36:11)

Foreign.

Maggie Robinson Katz (36:15)

You'Ve been listening to hands tied from BBC Studios and iHeart podcasts. If you like the show, please help us by spreading the word or giving us a five star review. The series was produced by me, Maggie Robinson Katz and Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignall. Our Script consultant is Emma Weatherall, Music research by Aisha Antwee. Production support is from Dan Marchini, Elena Boateng and Mabel Finnegan Wright and our Production executive is Laura Jordan Rowell. The series was developed by Anya Saunders and emma Shaw. At iHeart, the managing executive producer is Christina Everett and for BBC Studios the executive producer is Joe Kent. At iHeart podcasts, David Wasserman is the Brand Marketing Manager and Ali Cantor Graeber is the Director of Marketing At BBC Studios. Audio our Editorial Standards Advisor is Michael Fada, Ella Squire is our Podcast Marketing Manager, Lucy Mathias is Commercial Lead and Helen Penbury is the Commercial and Business Development Director. James Cook is the Creative Director of Factual for Audio and the Director of Audio at BBC Studios is Richard Knight.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (37:41)

Straight Arrow News Find facts and context you've been craving. Quickly find trusted information you need to understand the news. Watch what you want when you want. Catch up on the news at home or on the go with your own news cue. Dive deep into the topics that matter to you and the world around you. Navigate everything you need to know about the topics shaping your world. Understand how every side of the political spectrum is reporting on a story so you get a full picture of the news. Welcome back to trustworthy journalism. San.com this episode is brought to you by Uber Eats.

Maggie Robinson Katz (38:13)

Facing a beauty emergency? Need a last minute gift?

Liz (38:16)

Well, don't panic.

Maggie Robinson Katz (38:17)

Sephora is now available for delivery on Uber Eats. You can now get all your beauty essentials delivered in as little as 25 minutes for the same price as in store plus treat yourself to $10 off.

Liz (38:28)

When you spend $50 or more on.

Maggie Robinson Katz (38:29)

Your first Sephora order on the Uber Eats app. Order Sephora on Uber Eats today. Offer ends October 30th. One order per customer. Additional terms apply. See app for availability.

Liz (38:38)

Delivery fees may apply.

Anthony (38:40)

Goodbye.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (38:40)

Have you ever heard a story so unbelievable it just had to be true? Roofman is the jaw dropping new film about Geoffrey Manchester, played by Channing Tatum, a man who becomes infamous for breaking into over 40 Mc McDonald's through the roof, then secretly living inside of Toys.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (38:55)

R Us for six months.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (38:57)

With humor, suspense and heart, Roofman is a cat and mouse story that will keep you hooked until the very end. Don't miss Roofman. Only in theaters October 10th. There's a million things to stress about when flying overweight luggage, TSA lines, delays, overpriced airport lunches. Your rental car shouldn't be one of them with Avis. First, your rental comes with a personal concierge who meets you at arrivals, hands.

Straight Arrow News Announcer (39:22)

You the keys to a premium car.

Anthony (39:24)

And refills it for you at market.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (39:26)

Price when you're done. You've rented before, but trust me when I say you've never rented quite like this.

Anthony (39:32)

Welcome to Avis first.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (39:34)

Visit Avis.com to learn more. Thursday Night Football is on. And it's only on Prime Video. Wide open this week, the Seattle Seahawks face the Arizona Cardinals in an NFC west showdown. What a catch. Coverage begins Thursday at 7pm Eastern with football's best party, TNF Tonight, presented by Verizon. Not a Prime member? Not a problem. Simply sign up for a 30 day free trial. It's the Seahawks and the Cardinals Thursday at 7pm Eastern, only on Prime Video.

Anthony (40:04)

Restrictions apply.

Mike Ware / Chase Baumgartner (40:05)

See Amazon.com amazonprime for details.

Maggie Robinson Katz (40:08)

This is an iHeart podcast.