Happier with Gretchen Rubin

Bonus Episode: Who Am I Without Kids at Home? (Gretchen Rubin on “Laugh Lines”)

Date: November 23, 2025
Guests: Kim and Penn Holderness

Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, Gretchen Rubin joins Kim and Penn Holderness (hosts of the “Laugh Lines” podcast and creators of humorous family content) to discuss her rebranding of the "empty nest" phase as the more optimistic “open door” phase. The conversation delves into handling the mixed emotions and identity shifts when children leave home, cultivating healthy habits and coping mechanisms, creating new family rituals, and balancing connection with appropriate boundaries. Rubin also explores practical strategies for parents (and anyone undergoing major life transitions) for maintaining happiness, self-understanding, and strong relationships.

Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reframing the “Empty Nest”: The Open Door Phase

• Timestamps: 04:32–05:50
• Gretchen describes how “empty nest” sounds hollow and abandoned, and introduces her preferred metaphor: the “open door phase.”
  • “Open door captures hospitality—children and parents can come and go. It has a freshness and a sense of possibility, not just being left behind.” (Gretchen, 05:32)
  • This reframing also includes autonomy for parents: “I’m here for you, but I’m kind of doing my own thing now.”

2. Distance and Adjusting Expectations

• Timestamps: 05:50–06:36
• Kim raises the difficulty of children living far away.
• Gretchen advises open conversations about expectations on when and how often children will visit, as both parents and children might have different assumptions.

3. Coping with Transition: Habits and Self-Awareness

• Timestamps: 06:36–13:39
• Gretchen shares her approach during stressful transitions—leaning into healthy routines:
  • She prioritizes sleep, exercise, social connection, and revisiting comforting childhood books.
  • Self-awareness is key: “Pay attention to our habits, not accidentally falling into habits that make us feel worse.” (Gretchen, 07:50)
• Kim and Penn discuss their own coping strategies—“airport rules” indulgences like cake and wine, which can backfire if they become habitual numbing.

4. Healthy Treats & Experiential Coping

• Timestamps: 09:53–13:39
• Gretchen recommends replacing numbing treats with “healthy treats”—special, restorative activities (e.g., a massage, an immersive art exhibit, a dance class, an outdoor adventure).
  • The goal is activities that require attention and get you “out of your head,” rather than passive consumption or rumination.
  • “If we hold open those…spaces, then you always see the gap.” (Gretchen, 44:10)

5. Starting New Traditions

• Timestamps: 14:06–15:11

• Marking transitions with new rituals can honor the stage of life and help heal the loss from “retired” traditions (like Halloween photo galleries).

  • Example: Making Fourth of July a bigger holiday, or starting a new tradition of shopping for “signature shoes” for her grown daughters.
  • “I am a huge fan of new traditions…[they] have to start sometime.” (Gretchen, 14:38)

• Naming the Transition Trip

  • The group brainstorms a name for vacations taken immediately after “drop-off”—suggestions included “buffercation.”
    • “It’s like a soft place to land…a buffercation.” (Penn, 17:30)

6. Boundaries and Communication: How Much Is Too Much?

• Timestamps: 17:52–21:48
• Parents wonder how often they should check in.
  • Gretchen: “I think once a week is plenty.” (Gretchen, 18:36)
  • Clarifies it’s fine if kids initiate more frequent contact, but recommends avoiding “interviewing for pain” (asking for negative details) to reduce pressure on children.
  • It's important not to make children feel responsible for their parents’ happiness.

7. Rediscovering Identity Outside Parenthood

• Timestamps: 23:38–25:56
• The empty nest transition often challenges self-identity.
  • Even with careers or hobbies, “parent” can be the primary identity.
  • Gretchen suggests revisiting dormant identities or passions, or going deeper into current interests—“Now is the time to begin to pursue those.” (Gretchen, 25:54)

8. Launching a Personal Happiness Project

• Timestamps: 25:56–29:40
• Gretchen recaps the methodology of her “Happiness Project”—choosing focus areas and manageable resolutions.
  • Top recommendations: Focus on physical wellness (sleep, exercise, healthy eating, clutter clearing) and relationships (creating regular social connections, reigniting social traditions).

9. Personality Matters: Four Tendencies and Empty Nest Coping

• Timestamps: 34:42–39:58
• Gretchen summarizes her Four Tendencies framework:
  • Upholder, Questioner, Obliger, Rebel
• Each has different challenges. For example, obligers feel the loss of external accountability more and may need to create new structures; questioners might try to rationalize away feelings; both must allow themselves to feel and adapt.

10. Splitting Ambivalence: Support in Couples

• Timestamps: 41:03–42:58
• Couples may “split ambivalence”—one takes the role of grieving, the other of optimism.
  • “Both people have grief and relief; both kind of polarize themselves. That can be bad because then you might not admit to yourself, or each other, your full feelings.” (Gretchen, 41:08)

11. Restructuring Time, Spaces, and Focusing on One’s Own Experience

• Timestamps: 42:58–44:16
• Gretchen encourages filling “gaps” (physical or time-based) with intentional new routines.
• Suggests pivoting focus onto personal growth, hobbies, and social connections.

12. Men and Emotional Processing

• Timestamps: 49:13–50:21
• Women typically have more support and opportunities to process emotion around these transitions than men.
  • Suggests men may need intentional opportunities to discuss or simply “be” together.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On open door vs. empty nest:
  • “I just feel like [open door] has a more...freshness and a sense of possibility, whereas empty nest just feels like very left behind.” (Gretchen, 05:47)
• On habits during stress:
  • “I just…go deeper into my healthy habits when I’m under stress.” (Gretchen, 06:54)
• On treat replacements:
  • “You want to give yourself healthy treats.” (Gretchen, 10:18)
  • “Massage can lead to rumination. ... Dance class—where…you’ll just get out of your head because you’ll have to be thinking about what you’re doing.” (Gretchen, 12:05)
• On boundaries with grown children:
  • “Even that child, like, it’s very burdensome to put experiences into words.... Managing the happiness of a parent is very, very hard.” (Gretchen, 19:00)
• On rediscovering identity:
  • “People will often say things like, I feel like I’m being fired from the best job I ever had, or like, I don’t know who I am anymore.” (Gretchen, 24:12)
• On starting a happiness project:
  • “Pick a few things that you think could really move the needle...practical, manageable things that…don’t take a lot of extra time, energy or money.” (Gretchen, 26:12)
• On couples processing differently:
  • “Splitting ambivalence is where one person says, this is over...and the other person’s like, look on the bright side.” (Gretchen, 41:05)
• On time:
  • “It…gets normal faster. Time is a big thing with this.” (Gretchen, 52:48)

Key Segment Timestamps

• [04:32] – Gretchen reframes the empty nest as the “open door phase.”
• [06:54] – Using habits and self-care to manage transition stress.
• [09:27] – How to consciously redirect comforting “treats.”
• [14:38] – Creating new, meaningful traditions for family transitions.
• [17:52] – Guidelines for communicating with children who’ve left home.
• [24:12] – Identity loss and rediscovery after kids move out.
• [25:56] – How to start a Happiness Project—focus on body and relationships.
• [34:42] – Four Tendencies and their impact during life change.
• [41:05] – Splitting ambivalence in couples.
• [42:58] – Proactively filling empty time and space with new routines.
• [49:13] – Recognizing men's unique processing and needs.

Takeaways

• Transitions like the empty nest are best handled with intentionality: Rituals, habits, new routines, and allowing both grief and possibility.
• Self-care isn’t just indulgent—it’s foundational: Sleep, exercise, connections, and purposeful treats are boosters, not distractions.
• Healthy boundaries enable growth—both for parents and children.
• Rediscovering or creating identity is crucial: Whether through old passions, new traditions, or new relationships.
• Communication style and personality (like Rubin’s Four Tendencies) influence adaptation: Awareness can help tailor coping strategies.
• Support systems matter—for both mothers and fathers.

Closing Reflection

Gretchen’s empathetic, practical wisdom—delivered with humor and warmth—provides a compassionate roadmap for navigating the open door phase, making space for joy, growth, and ongoing connection in a changing family landscape.

For more from Gretchen Rubin, listen to the “Happier with Gretchen Rubin” podcast or visit her newsletter, “Five Things Making Me Happy.”