Bonus Episode: Who Am I Without Kids at Home? (Gretchen Rubin on “Laugh Lines”)

Summary

Happier with Gretchen Rubin

Bonus Episode: Who Am I Without Kids at Home? (Gretchen Rubin on “Laugh Lines”)

Date: November 23, 2025
Guests: Kim and Penn Holderness

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Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, Gretchen Rubin joins Kim and Penn Holderness (hosts of the “Laugh Lines” podcast and creators of humorous family content) to discuss her rebranding of the "empty nest" phase as the more optimistic “open door” phase. The conversation delves into handling the mixed emotions and identity shifts when children leave home, cultivating healthy habits and coping mechanisms, creating new family rituals, and balancing connection with appropriate boundaries. Rubin also explores practical strategies for parents (and anyone undergoing major life transitions) for maintaining happiness, self-understanding, and strong relationships.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reframing the “Empty Nest”: The Open Door Phase

• Timestamps: 04:32–05:50
• Gretchen describes how “empty nest” sounds hollow and abandoned, and introduces her preferred metaphor: the “open door phase.”
  • “Open door captures hospitality—children and parents can come and go. It has a freshness and a sense of possibility, not just being left behind.” (Gretchen, 05:32)
  • This reframing also includes autonomy for parents: “I’m here for you, but I’m kind of doing my own thing now.”

2. Distance and Adjusting Expectations

• Timestamps: 05:50–06:36
• Kim raises the difficulty of children living far away.
• Gretchen advises open conversations about expectations on when and how often children will visit, as both parents and children might have different assumptions.

3. Coping with Transition: Habits and Self-Awareness

• Timestamps: 06:36–13:39
• Gretchen shares her approach during stressful transitions—leaning into healthy routines:
  • She prioritizes sleep, exercise, social connection, and revisiting comforting childhood books.
  • Self-awareness is key: “Pay attention to our habits, not accidentally falling into habits that make us feel worse.” (Gretchen, 07:50)
• Kim and Penn discuss their own coping strategies—“airport rules” indulgences like cake and wine, which can backfire if they become habitual numbing.

4. Healthy Treats & Experiential Coping

• Timestamps: 09:53–13:39
• Gretchen recommends replacing numbing treats with “healthy treats”—special, restorative activities (e.g., a massage, an immersive art exhibit, a dance class, an outdoor adventure).
  • The goal is activities that require attention and get you “out of your head,” rather than passive consumption or rumination.
  • “If we hold open those…spaces, then you always see the gap.” (Gretchen, 44:10)

5. Starting New Traditions

• Timestamps: 14:06–15:11

• Marking transitions with new rituals can honor the stage of life and help heal the loss from “retired” traditions (like Halloween photo galleries).

  • Example: Making Fourth of July a bigger holiday, or starting a new tradition of shopping for “signature shoes” for her grown daughters.
  • “I am a huge fan of new traditions…[they] have to start sometime.” (Gretchen, 14:38)

• Naming the Transition Trip

  • The group brainstorms a name for vacations taken immediately after “drop-off”—suggestions included “buffercation.”
    • “It’s like a soft place to land…a buffercation.” (Penn, 17:30)

6. Boundaries and Communication: How Much Is Too Much?

• Timestamps: 17:52–21:48
• Parents wonder how often they should check in.
  • Gretchen: “I think once a week is plenty.” (Gretchen, 18:36)
  • Clarifies it’s fine if kids initiate more frequent contact, but recommends avoiding “interviewing for pain” (asking for negative details) to reduce pressure on children.
  • It's important not to make children feel responsible for their parents’ happiness.

7. Rediscovering Identity Outside Parenthood

• Timestamps: 23:38–25:56
• The empty nest transition often challenges self-identity.
  • Even with careers or hobbies, “parent” can be the primary identity.
  • Gretchen suggests revisiting dormant identities or passions, or going deeper into current interests—“Now is the time to begin to pursue those.” (Gretchen, 25:54)

8. Launching a Personal Happiness Project

• Timestamps: 25:56–29:40
• Gretchen recaps the methodology of her “Happiness Project”—choosing focus areas and manageable resolutions.
  • Top recommendations: Focus on physical wellness (sleep, exercise, healthy eating, clutter clearing) and relationships (creating regular social connections, reigniting social traditions).

9. Personality Matters: Four Tendencies and Empty Nest Coping

• Timestamps: 34:42–39:58
• Gretchen summarizes her Four Tendencies framework:
  • Upholder, Questioner, Obliger, Rebel
• Each has different challenges. For example, obligers feel the loss of external accountability more and may need to create new structures; questioners might try to rationalize away feelings; both must allow themselves to feel and adapt.

10. Splitting Ambivalence: Support in Couples

• Timestamps: 41:03–42:58
• Couples may “split ambivalence”—one takes the role of grieving, the other of optimism.
  • “Both people have grief and relief; both kind of polarize themselves. That can be bad because then you might not admit to yourself, or each other, your full feelings.” (Gretchen, 41:08)

11. Restructuring Time, Spaces, and Focusing on One’s Own Experience

• Timestamps: 42:58–44:16
• Gretchen encourages filling “gaps” (physical or time-based) with intentional new routines.
• Suggests pivoting focus onto personal growth, hobbies, and social connections.

12. Men and Emotional Processing

• Timestamps: 49:13–50:21
• Women typically have more support and opportunities to process emotion around these transitions than men.
  • Suggests men may need intentional opportunities to discuss or simply “be” together.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On open door vs. empty nest:
  • “I just feel like [open door] has a more...freshness and a sense of possibility, whereas empty nest just feels like very left behind.” (Gretchen, 05:47)
• On habits during stress:
  • “I just…go deeper into my healthy habits when I’m under stress.” (Gretchen, 06:54)
• On treat replacements:
  • “You want to give yourself healthy treats.” (Gretchen, 10:18)
  • “Massage can lead to rumination. ... Dance class—where…you’ll just get out of your head because you’ll have to be thinking about what you’re doing.” (Gretchen, 12:05)
• On boundaries with grown children:
  • “Even that child, like, it’s very burdensome to put experiences into words.... Managing the happiness of a parent is very, very hard.” (Gretchen, 19:00)
• On rediscovering identity:
  • “People will often say things like, I feel like I’m being fired from the best job I ever had, or like, I don’t know who I am anymore.” (Gretchen, 24:12)
• On starting a happiness project:
  • “Pick a few things that you think could really move the needle...practical, manageable things that…don’t take a lot of extra time, energy or money.” (Gretchen, 26:12)
• On couples processing differently:
  • “Splitting ambivalence is where one person says, this is over...and the other person’s like, look on the bright side.” (Gretchen, 41:05)
• On time:
  • “It…gets normal faster. Time is a big thing with this.” (Gretchen, 52:48)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• [04:32] – Gretchen reframes the empty nest as the “open door phase.”
• [06:54] – Using habits and self-care to manage transition stress.
• [09:27] – How to consciously redirect comforting “treats.”
• [14:38] – Creating new, meaningful traditions for family transitions.
• [17:52] – Guidelines for communicating with children who’ve left home.
• [24:12] – Identity loss and rediscovery after kids move out.
• [25:56] – How to start a Happiness Project—focus on body and relationships.
• [34:42] – Four Tendencies and their impact during life change.
• [41:05] – Splitting ambivalence in couples.
• [42:58] – Proactively filling empty time and space with new routines.
• [49:13] – Recognizing men's unique processing and needs.

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Takeaways

• Transitions like the empty nest are best handled with intentionality: Rituals, habits, new routines, and allowing both grief and possibility.
• Self-care isn’t just indulgent—it’s foundational: Sleep, exercise, connections, and purposeful treats are boosters, not distractions.
• Healthy boundaries enable growth—both for parents and children.
• Rediscovering or creating identity is crucial: Whether through old passions, new traditions, or new relationships.
• Communication style and personality (like Rubin’s Four Tendencies) influence adaptation: Awareness can help tailor coping strategies.
• Support systems matter—for both mothers and fathers.

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Closing Reflection

Gretchen’s empathetic, practical wisdom—delivered with humor and warmth—provides a compassionate roadmap for navigating the open door phase, making space for joy, growth, and ongoing connection in a changing family landscape.

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For more from Gretchen Rubin, listen to the “Happier with Gretchen Rubin” podcast or visit her newsletter, “Five Things Making Me Happy.”

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

For instance, have you heard of the Primrose Friends? In every Primrose School classroom, teachers use these 12 lovable puppets to make character development joyful, meaningful and memorable. From exploring generosity with Benjamin the Bear to practicing honesty with Peanut the Pony, every friend plays a special part in helping children learn important values while having plenty of fun along the way. We could all use some friends like that. You can learn [e-mail] now enrolling infants through children age 5. That's primroseschools.com for more information. Lemonada. Hello, we're here for a bonus episode of the Happier Podcast, a podcast where we get happier. This week, Jamie and I have our daughter Eleanor home from college for the holidays. And that got me thinking again about what I call the open door phase. That is my rebranding of the Empty Nest. We're two years into it now, and every time Eleanor is home, I notice something new about this stage of life. I was on Kim and Penn Holderness podcast Laugh Lines to talk about it. You may know them from their hilarious videos about family life. Their daughter just started college. Their son's still at home, so they're right in the middle of this season. My favorite part of our conversation was when we got to the question that, honestly, every parent wonders how much is too much? How many texts? How many calls? How many? Just checking ins before it's too much. Let us just say that my answer surprised them. Even if you don't have kids, I think you'll relate to this conversation. It's really about staying connected to the people you love without driving them bonkers. Anyway, here's our conversation.

[Kim]

Should we bring in. Let's bring in Gretchen. It's so funny. Every time I look down at her name, I'm like, is it Dr. Rubin? I just feel like she should have it.

[Penn Holderness]

I mean, she is incredibly impressive.

[Kim]

I know.

[Penn Holderness]

I feel like she's highly educated.

[Kim]

Like, I've talked to some doctors who are not as doctory.

[Penn Holderness]

She's a badass.

[Kim]

Gretchen lives in New York City with her family, and we are so happy to have her. Welcome, Gretchen.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I am so happy to be talking to you both today. Thank you for having me.

[Penn Holderness]

I've read your books. I've listened to your podcast. I have to say, this morning, when I was really. I was. I was feeling. Feeling my feelings. I'm like, I just need to. I just need somebody to tell me what to do and how to process this. And I was like, I'm talking to the person who tells you how to do this. So I'm very excited to talk to you.

[Kim]

Very good timing.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. No, and I'm excited to talk about this stage of life. Right. Because it's so new and it's so. Can be so overwhelming.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. So you've written about how instead of looking at this as an empty nest, you talk about it as an open door. So you have both of your girls are now out of your apartment, out of your home, out of your home. So how do you frame it?

[Gretchen Rubin]

So, you know, the thing about the empty nest is I don't think anybody likes it, you know, because it feels very kind of hollowed out and bereft and kind of like you've been abandoned and left behind. And so I like open door because it captures this idea of, like, hospitality because children will come and go, and the two of you can come and go. Like, well, you still have one at home, but you're a little bit more free to come and go. And that. It also captures this idea of, like, the threshold. Right. Because, like, now we're at a new stage of life. And it's also kind of like the manager. You know, it's like, I have an open door policy. Like, I'm here doing my own work. If you need to come by and have my attention, like, I'm here for you, but I'm kind of doing my own thing now. And I'm letting you do your own thing. So. And I just feel like it has a more kind of, kind of a freshness and a sense of possibility, whereas empty nest just feels like very left behind.

[Kim]

What if your open door is farther away than you would like it to be?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Meaning your, meaning your child?

[Kim]

Sorry. Yeah. We're a flight away instead of a drive.

[Gretchen Rubin]

No, no, no. Yeah, so am I. Well, I mean, I think part of what we have to do is adjust our expectations for like, what that's going to look like. And I think that's a really good thing for parents and children to talk about because often parents and children have very different ide. What to expect. Like, I know that often spring break is a time where many kids are like, oh, I'm going off with my new friends. And the parents are like, wait, you're supposed to come home for every, you know, every possible vacation. So part of it is, is kind of getting starting to adjust to new expectations of like, yeah, when are they crossing the threshold?

[Penn Holderness]

What I love about your work, you talk a lot about habits and, and, and, and, and happiness, so, and how habits can directly impact your level of happiness. So how did that work really prepare you to launch your girls into the world?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, part of it is that I just, you know, I always launch into my, go deeper and deeper into my healthy habits when I'm under stress. So I'm really careful to get enough sleep, I'm really careful to exercise. I'm really careful to connect with my friends and my, my, you know, extended family and my husband. I'm. One of the things that I do when I'm very stressed out is I will start to reread books from childhood. And the more stressed out I am, the further back in childhood I go, you know, like, am I reading Anne of Green Gables books? Yes, I am. You know, because I've gone very far back into my own childhood for that sense of reassurance and comfort. So I think part of it is knowing what comforts you and drawing on that and then not doing things that distract you. I know, Kim, you talked about like reaching for things. In a previous discussion you were talking about like eating more or like drinking more or kind of numbing out.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Paying attention to our habits, not accidentally falling into habits because sometimes we do something to try to make ourselves feel better that in the end just makes us feel worse. So we really want to say like, oh, going for a long walk is going to make me feel better. Sitting down and doom scrolling is going to make me Feel worse. Let me make a choice based on that.

[Kim]

You're really self aware about that. I will give you credit for that. Like when you, like when you're really bummed out and you do decide that you're going to reach for like a glass of wine and some cake, you actually say airport rules.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Kim]

Which is.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh yeah, okay.

[Gretchen Rubin]

No, in my, in my, in my book, Better than Before where I talk about habits, I talk about the loopholes. There are 10 categories of loopholes and that's the. This doesn't count loopholes, which is. It's an airport. This doesn't count. We're not even in an airport. We still have airport.

[Kim]

We're acting like it's 9:00am yeah, we just bellied up to the bar for like cake and a glass of wine.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, okay, yes, we, in our family, we call it airport rules. And I. Okay, Gretchen, teach me your ways. Because. Okay, I. We. The week before drop off, the week after, after drop, drop off, I was like, yes, I'm going to try to go for the walk and I'm going to try to read my book instead of doom scrolling. And I. Because I love to read and that's a comfort for me. But for whatever reason, I could not. I couldn't concentrate on the, the words on the page. I couldn't. I would go for a walk, but I would be so in my head. So the only thing that felt comfortable and I ashamed to admit this was a piece of cake, a glass of wine and my thumbs hurt. I was doom scrolling so much. So how do I train myself?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Because. But that.

[Penn Holderness]

And I woke up feeling like crap. I didn't feel good about myself. I felt even worse and more sad the next day. So like, how do I, how do I go for the walk? How do I read the book? How do I do these things instead of like, I know they're better for me. Just like I need like a happiness coach. I need somebody to like stand over me and take the fork out of my hand.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Look, I love talking about habit. Let's go deep.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Let's talk about the cake for a second. So was the cake, were you thinking of it more like, was the thought in your mind more like with everything I'm going through, I deserve this? Or was it more like given how drained I feel, I need a boost.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, okay. That's a really good clarifying question. I think it was. Given everything I've gone through, I deserve this.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. So what I would say is, so you need a treat and I'm a Huge fan of people giving themselves treats when they need a little bit of energy or a lift. But you want to give yourself healthy treats. So part of it is to say, what are some healthy treats that I could give to myself? Like, do you love getting something that feels indulgent? Like, not something that, not like, oh, a great cup of coffee that you can have every day, but like a 90 minute massage or a sound bath, or like, is there something, are there treats you can think of where you're like, that could be a healthy treat for me that I could reach for when I'm starting to say to myself, I need it, I deserve it, given everything I'm going through. I get to have this because you need a treat and that's fine, but maybe there are other treats that you could find. I don't know. Penn, can you think of treats that like, what would be a good treat for her?

[Kim]

I think she, like, she likes massages if they're firm enough.

[Penn Holderness]

I like a good elbow.

[Kim]

And then with a Swedish massage, she's like, this is not working for me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, Right, okay.

[Kim]

I do think, like, for her this has been interesting because one treat that she really likes is having a really good friend and going for like a two hour walk. She always comes back from that feeling better. But there was actually a period, Gretchen, last week where she didn't even feel comfortable walking with another person because she was feeling so much from that drop off. Am I, am I putting words in your mouth here?

[Penn Holderness]

No, that's right, that's right.

[Kim]

I, I don't know if many of her, like a ton of her treats involve like hanging out with me because she's, she does that a lot.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

[Kim]

So, you know, I, I, I think.

[Penn Holderness]

I think you're onto something though, Gretchen. Like more experiences rather than there's like a dance class. I found, yeah, I've been doing that.

[Kim]

That's been good.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Because one of the things is massage can lead to rumination. So if you're like up in your head, a massage is maybe not great because then you're just lying there having your thoughts. So maybe something like a dance class where like part of what is relaxing about it is you'll just get out of your head because you'll have to be thinking about what you're doing and you'll get caught up in it, but you don't have to talk to somebody. If you're feeling like it's too much to be talking, then I just get overwhelmed with my emotions. Something that gets you out of your head.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So not like going for a walk but like going rock climbing. Not that I go rock climbing, but like people say about, you just have to focus on what you're doing so much that it, it gives you a respite from yourself.

[Kim]

She's definitely an experiential person. I think like we'll go on vacations and there'll be a massage or there'll be a three hour hike and she's going to take the hike just about every single time.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think, okay, so maybe that's, it's looking for that. Maybe you do like an immersive like art exhibit, like something where it'll take a lot of your attention and, and feel like exciting and relax and relaxing, but you don't have to talk to somebody and you're not going to get caught up in your own thoughts.

[Penn Holderness]

I love this because obviously it's, I've been upset about other things than just like dropping my kid off at college. But my coping throughout my life, my coping strategies have left me, I think a little worse than the actual event or whatever the, you know, the hard talk with a family member. Whatever it was. My coping strategies have always been cake or wine or, or doom scrolling. And so I. Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And the fact is like there's nothing wrong with those if they don't make you feel worse. Because for some people it's like, look, I just want to have like my little biscotti and that's gonna make me feel like treat. Like that's the treat that I want and it reminds me of my childhood and it makes me feel great. But they don't look back on it with regret. Right. It's. The question is, does it in the end just make you feel worse because you don't wan, like trying to dig yourself out of the hole, just like dig yourself in deeper.

[Penn Holderness]

Right?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. Thank you for that. And I will, I'll, I'll report to you from my dance class. Okay. You encourage people. I think the beautiful thing about your work is to kind of add in the rituals into existing structures and traditions. So like what sort of new rituals? As you have your open door now, what sort of rituals can you even like a parent sending their kid off to kindergarten, like all these life transitions, can, can parents really start to incorporate?

[Gretchen Rubin]

I am a huge fan of new traditions. Okay, oxymoron. But they have to start sometime. And like marking these transitions can be really great. But I also think that something that happens, at least it happened in our family, is that a lot of traditions Kind of didn't work anymore. And that adds to the poignancy of this kind of the changing season of life, which is sort of realizing, like, wow. Like, we have a Halloween gallery where it's all the pictures of all my daughters and their Halloween costumes over the year. And I get it out every Halloween. And it's super fun, but I'm like, and now that gallery is closed.

[Kim]

College Halloween. Yeah, college Halloween's a lot of fun.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You already know that it's a lot of fun. But she's not sending me photos of that. And so it's like, that's over. So the thing is to have new traditions. So, like, one thing that I decided with our family was like, we never really did much for Fourth of July. And I'm like, this is a really good holiday for, like, older kids. Because it's like, if you're working or you're at school, it's like, easy to get that time off. We'd kind of never done anything with it. So, like, I'm like, let's make it big. So that's kind of one of my things, is to make Fourth of July bigger. We did a thing because my older daughter is in grad school, so both my daughters were going to school. I said, kind of trying to capture that back to school. You know how you go clothes shopping, like, buy the little sneakers and everything. So I was like, okay, I'll buy you a pair. This is for daughters, my daughters. I said, I'll buy you a pair of signature shoes. We're going to go to a department store and you can each pick out a pair of signature shoes to start the school year. And we did that last year. And then we did. And I'm like, okay, we have to pick our time to shop for signature shoes. And it was kind of tapping into that familiar feeling of back to school shopping. And then a thing that I want to name. So help me workshop this, right? Because I still haven't come up with a good name is, okay, so there's a lot of times what people will tell people about the empty nest is especially if it's like, really, you're truly the empty nest and there's no more child at home. Plan a trip right away. Go on a trip right away. Like from drop off. Or like, maybe you drop off your kid, you come home, and then you just immediately turn around and leave. And this gives you something to look forward to. It gives you a distraction. It makes time feel rich. There's a lot of reasons that this is sort of Something that works for a lot of people to help kind of create a buffer in that new zone. You're not just, like, staring at their empty bed and their empty place at the kitchen. You know, you have a break. So what is the name of that? Like, we have the baby moon. We have the push present. We have Galentine's day. Like, what is the name for that trip?

[Kim]

The crying Cruise.

[Penn Holderness]

No, but it's.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. Well, I feel like just a little bit. Okay, okay.

[Kim]

Sorry. Something with buffer in it.

[Penn Holderness]

Holiday buffer.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, yeah. Buffer.

[Penn Holderness]

The buffer.

[Kim]

What's. What is.

[Gretchen Rubin]

What.

[Kim]

What is it?

[Gretchen Rubin]

What.

[Kim]

What's like a portmanteau we can use with you?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I like the way you're thinking about this. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Because. But it's also like a. It's like a. As much as it's a buffer, it's like a soft place to land. It's like a buffer cation. A buffer cation.

[Kim]

Like a bifurcation, but it's a buffer case.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I like that because I love a staycation.

[Kim]

Yep.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, I love a staycation.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Buffer cation.

[Kim]

Better than crying Cruise.

[Penn Holderness]

You have to cry Creek. Can you imagine? You're just sending all the empty nest parents and you're putting them in one place, and it's just like, a lot of sobbing. No, I have to say, I am in the phase, and perhaps you are through it already. I hope you are where I'm checking for updates all the time. She's been very communicative. She always says, I'm getting updates, but I want to know, like, everything. I want to know, like, what was this class and how many people are in it and what was your favorite and all this stuff? So what. What's appropriate. What's an appropriate goal to shoot for in terms of asking for updates? Like, what do we. What's the boundary? I don't want to. I don't want to cross it and make her uncomfortable, but I want to know everything.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I mean, I think once a week is plenty. Really.

[Kim]

That was the dagger over here. I just got to tell you, the a. So we A very communitive daughter. I think it's gonna probably taper off, but, like, we've been getting eight or nine a day texts.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's fine. That's fine from her.

[Kim]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

From her.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's fine from her.

[Kim]

Okay.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's fine from her. The question is, like, what can you say is the minimum?

[Penn Holderness]

Okay.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think if you have a communicative child, that's wonderful. But even that child, like, it's Very burdensome to put like experiences into words. And sometimes, like, one thing you definitely don't want to do is interview for pain. Which is when you ask like, okay, are you fighting with, are you still fighting with your roommate all the time? Or like, oh, is the food still bad? Or like, how's that working out? Like, with all those girls sharing one bathroom. Right. Because you're asking for negative information. So it's good to keep it open ended. But I think it can be very, it can be hard to have to explain. And it just, I mean, we've all had that where it's like, it's very hard to put into words an overwhelming experience. And something I would say too is like, sometimes parents will say, well, they're really happy. So that's great, right? I'm so happy that they're, I'm sad, but they're so happy. They're having so much fun. But even that, I think is a lot of pressure for a child to feel like, well, I have to be happy because my parents are counting on me to be happy. So what if I'm not happy? What if I feel lonely? What if I feel left out? What if I feel like I made a mistake and I'm here? Like, I think that expecting our children to boy, like, give us like reassurance a lot of time. And I don't know about you, but I think sometimes it's that a parent wants reassurance. Even something like, you're safe. I know you're safe because I'm texting with you all the time, so I know you're safe. Even if it's like, well, yeah, they're safe or they're happy. Like, I need to hear from you all the time. Oh, you're meeting great kids. Oh, you have a great professor. Oh, the campus is really pretty. That's so great. And it's like, but what if it's not? What if it's not? And they have to be able to experience that. And I think some, you know, we always say, like, parents always say, like, you're only as happy as your least happy child. But I think for some children it's, I'm only as happy as my least happy parents. And managing the happiness of a parent is very, very hard. And I don't think that most parents want our children to feel that responsibility.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And I think there's a paradox that I'm constantly thinking about is on the one hand, I want to say to my daughters, you are the most important thing in the world to me. Your happiness is essential to me. And I also want to say to them, you are not the most important thing. You are not the center of my world. I have my own happiness. You don't have to be happy for me. You know, both things are true. And it's hard sometimes to keep that tension in our minds.

[Kim]

I can't. I can't pretend to experience the amount of empathy and connection that my wife has with her daughter as someone who birthed her and is of her gender and has helped her through a lot of, like, women's issues and has been, like, really there for her in every single step of the way. They've had a very relationship. So.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But.

[Kim]

And I think that she'll be. She'll do the work to try to do all these things you just said while we're on the topic, just like a specialized case, a lot of your friends, including you, are, you know, they are sort of like, making sure, even, like, looking at where they are, that they're home every night.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Sure.

[Kim]

And it. That occurs way after we're asleep. So it's led to some sleepless nights for a lot of these moms.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, sure. Find my. And.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, the tracking, I think.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

Personally, I think it's just because it's so new, right? Yeah, yeah. So I think that even for me, because I was like, oh, did she. She's so responsible. Like, she, like, of course she's getting to her class on time, but, like, okay, has she left? Is she going to get coffee? Like I was the first couple days, I was like, it's fun.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's. It's. It's. It's fun to. To follow.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, it's fun to follow along. But I have not let her know, so she doesn't listen to our podcast, so we're fine.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay.

[Penn Holderness]

But.

[Kim]

But that's. Okay.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, if you thought your daughter wouldn't like it if she knew, that's maybe tells you something.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And again, like, the first week or so, okay, fine. But then I think you have to start saying, like, okay, I need to let them have an independent experience, and I need to turn to myself. I need to think about my own experience. You know, we should think as much about our own experiences as we think about their experiences.

[Kim]

There it is.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Like, you're doing your dorm room. What about your house? You're thinking about, like, what. What classes they're taking. What class are you taking? You know, like, you're worrying about what time they're going to bed. Like, you go out and go to a party, you know.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah. And so we have worked really hard, but I still think we fell into the trap. Parenthood becomes a lot of people's primary identity.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, 100%. Yes. I'm so glad you mentioned yes.

[Penn Holderness]

And so we, we had those conversations like we, we wanted, you know, we have each other, we have work we love, we have all these other things. We, I always try to get hobbies, but still. And yet it is, it is such a huge part of your life you can't ignore. So I guess how do we, how do we, how do people reinvent this at this, at this point in life?

[Gretchen Rubin]

You know, I think this is one of the greatest challenges that people have. And it's true that even if you have a flourishing career and tons of friends and lots of hobbies, it is still for people their most important identity. And it's, you know, people will often say things like, I feel like I'm being fired from the best job I ever had, or like, I don't know who I am anym. And so I think it is something really important to think about. Like, one of the things to think about is are there identities from the past that you've let go of because of parenthood or for one reason or another that you could now reclaim? Like I'm a fly fisherman or I'm a cellist, or I'm fluent in French or whatever it is, or there are identities that you can go deeper into. Like things that you're doing now but that you could take to a different level. Like, I've always been an amateur bird watcher, but now I'm like, going to take it really seriously. And I'm going to get a great set of binoculars and I'm going to start traveling to like, look at birds and I'm going to keep my journal and do. I don't even know what bird watchers do, all the things that they do.

[Penn Holderness]

That sounds like that's what they do. Yeah, yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And, yeah. And like blow and like, make it into a thing and make it a way to have adventures and meet new people and learn new skills and like, you know, or sometimes we have to like, find a new identity and that's harder where you're like, trying to figure out, well, what would that new identity be and what is it that you want? And so you can ask yourself questions like, what would my ideal day look like? Or five years from now, what would my fantasy life look like? Not my fantasy life, but, like my ideal life look like. What might it include and what things have I always wanted to explore, but I never really had time for. Now is the time to begin to pursue those with this new time and energy.

[Penn Holderness]

If someone was wanted to start their own happiness project, first of all, if you can explain the happiness project. But if somebody wanted to start one, what, what advice do you have to give? But first start by explaining the happiness project.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So when I wrote my, when I did my happiness project, I decided like I would divide, I would spend a year working on my happiness. And I divided the year into 12 categories. And that I thought would make me happier. Things like work and energy and family and marriage. And then in each catego category, I gave myself a handful of concrete manageable resolutions that would help me do a better job in that area of my life to see if it would make me happier. And spoiler alert, yes, it did make me happier. I've been studying happiness ever since because it was so exciting to try all these things and see that they did make me happier. And I think if I were going to say to somebody else, I would say pick a few things that you think this could really move the needle for me. And think of three or four resolutions, practical, manageable things that you could do as part of your ordinary life. Things that don't take a lot of extra time, energy or money, which most people don't have a lot of extra time, energy or money and try to incorporate them into your life. And if I had to choose like two areas to suggest, I would suggest these two. First is your own body, which goes to energy. Everything is easier when we have energy. And our physical experience will always color our emotional experience. This is why something like staying up late to monitor your kids can be really bad. Because if you're not getting enough sleep, that's gonna make the rest of your life, you're just gonna feel so much more emotional, you're gonna feel so much more volatile, you're gonna feel drained and overwhelmed so much more easily just cause you're not getting enough sleep. And sleep is so important. So anything related to exercise, sleep, making sure that you're like eating, you know, you're not letting yourself get too hungry, you're not eating a ton of junk food that makes you feel lousy. Really focusing on your body and even like your physical surroundings, like for a lot of people, creating outer order creates inner calm. And when my daughter left, I went on this huge clutter clearing thing at our apartment because it just made me feel better to get everything organized. It was a way that I just dealt with my feelings. Not her room, though I was under very. She knew that about me. So she was like, do not touch anything in my room. You cannot clutter clear in my room. So one is your own body and then the other is relationships. And this is just. Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that the most important thing for our happiness is strong relationships. So something like you mentioned, like some open door parents coming together once a month. That is a great idea because it's a group, so it's a lot of people. You're maybe meeting new people or making stronger connections with people that you sort of knew but didn't know before. You can look forward to it because you're meeting regularly. If you miss once a month, you know, you can see them the next month. You can go and have adventures and do new things together. Or maybe you're now like, oh, we could have. We used to have monthly dinner parties when we were first married, but we haven't done that in years. Now we're going to get back to it or my husband and I, he really likes to eat at a bar and I really like to eat early. And so there's this new restaurant in our neighborhood and it's like we go and eat at the bar, which I love because I'm eating early and it's fun. And he likes, because he likes the festivity of eating at a bar. And it's sort of a new kind of way for us to connect as a couple that is, that is new to us. And so it feels like, it feels like a new kind of a new addition to our relationship. So things related to your body and things related to relationships.

[Penn Holderness]

I love that.

[Kim]

I'm glad, I'm glad you brought up your husband. I also love eating at a bar. And you love eating early. This might actually work out well.

[Penn Holderness]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Why is it festive? Why is it festive to eat at a bar? I do not.

[Kim]

Because, because you can. I, to me, the, the, the bartenders right there, it feels like a special occasion. It feels like special treatment almost because they're like right next to you. And also it reminds me festively of like Christmas and Thanksgiving when you just strike up conversations with people you've never seen before.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. So I, yes, there is a, there's a kind of a hospitability to it. Yeah.

[Kim]

And I love that. But another reason I'm glad you brought them up is because, you know, as we're going through this open door phase, we're definitely handling it in two different ways.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Kim]

Like I'm sad. It's. I don't, I don't think it's as obvious and I don't think. I think it's more of like a low, deep down feeling that maybe I'm not talking about enough. I don't know. It's just different. You have this, this great sort of personality test that you ask people to take about their sort of types. We both took them. I'm wondering what are you. I'm wondering if we told you what we were that you might be able to give us more insight on the way that we're processing some of these things.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Ye. Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

[Penn Holderness]

More on this after these words.

[Podcast Host]

The holidays are such a joyful time, but let's be honest, they can also be a lot. There's so much to cook, so much to clean, and unfortunately, so much food waste.

[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, Squarespace is the all in one platform to build and grow your online presence. You know, whether you're starting a passion project, you're promoting your comedy or your podcast, or you're turning a side hustle into a business, Squarespace makes it easy to stand out online. And if you offer services or run events, Squarespace lets you book clients, send invoices, and get paid all in one place. Head to squarespace.com happy for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code happy to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Kim]

I am. And Kim nodded her head, yes, you are. When I got it. I am a questioner.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

And I took it a million years ago. So I'm an obliger.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Should I briefly describe this?

[Penn Holderness]

Please, please.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. And anybody who wants to take a quiz, there's a quiz on my [e-mail] and it's free. But usually if I just give a brief description, people know what they are right away. Sure. These completely ring true for me. I would have guessed that about both of you. So good. So what this looks at is a very narrow aspect of your personality that ends up being really important, which is how you respond to expectations. And we all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, like a work deadline, and inner expectations, like your own desire to keep a New Year's resolution. And depending on whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectation, that makes you an upholder like me, a questioner like Penn, an obliger like Kim, or a rebel. We don't have one in this conversation. So upholders are people who readily meet outer and inner expectations. They keep the work deadline. They keep the New Year' resolution without much fuss. Their motto is discipline is my freedom. Then there are questioners like pen. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they resist anything irrational, arbitrary, unjustified. They have to know why. So they make everything in their expectations. They make sense.

[Penn Holderness]

They'll do it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It doesn't make sense. They won't.

[Kim]

Why is it so annoying to you?

[Penn Holderness]

It's not annoying. It is just that, like, oh, my God, we have to talk everything out loud. Just do it anyway.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Questioners often drain and overwhelm others with their questions, particularly obligers. Okay, I'm married to a questioner, so I know that well. So their motto is, I'll comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. And this, by the way, is the biggest tendency. It's the one that the largest number of people, both men and women, belong to. So, Kim, you are in great company. And obligers are people who readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So these are the folks who say, why is it that I always keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself? And the good news for obligers is that the solution for this is very straightforward, which is you just need to give yourself outer accountability. You have to have outer accountability even to meet an inner expectation. Like, if you want to read more, you can join a book group. Or if you want to exercise, you can take a class or go with a friend who's annoyed if you don't show up or think of your duty to be a role model. There's a million ways, ways to create outer accountability, once you know that's what you need. So their motto is, you can count on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. This is the smallest tendency. And rebels are people who resist both outer and inner expectations. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do that they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically, they don't tell themselves what to do. Like, they don't sign up for a 10am spin class on Saturday because they think, I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday, and just the fact that it's on my calendar is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me, and neither can I. So these are the four tendencies. And, yeah, you can take the quiz if you don't know, but we could do Game of Thrones characters, we can do the Office. These are so obvious when you know what to look for, they're very easy to spot. But I do think that the tendencies have implications for how you might deal with the empty nest. Okay, So I think for obligers, this is particularly hard because for obligers, that outer accountability, those outer expectations are so important to the way they go through their life. And so somebody being gone from that role, they really feel it, and it may be harder for them to figure out how to replace it. So if as an obliger, you're like, oh, I get up and I organize my weekend around what my kids need. And that comes very effortlessly to me as an obliger, because I don't have the same resistance that an upholder or question or a rebel might have to that now that it's gone, what organizes my time? They may find it hard to organize their time for themselves because it's an inner expectation. What do I want to do with my day? It's like, I don't know what I want to do with my day. That's not how I live my life. And so for them, that's a much bigger challenge. Whereas for an upholder, a question or a rebel, they have different ways of saying, oh, well, what would I do at that time? So I think for obligers, that could be hard. For questioners, I think questioners are often like, well, what does the data show? What does the research show? And they might try to convince themselves. Penn, it doesn't sound like you're doing this, but I think sometimes they're like, well, there's no reason for me to be sad because this is exactly what we wanted. There's absolutely no ground for us, for me to be feeling upset because she's off, she's independent, she's happy. Like, why would I feel that way? Therefore, I do not feel that way. And it's like, but guess what? You do feel that way, you know? So I think sometimes questioners can kind of like, get up in their heads because they're like, why should I feel that way? It's like. But sometimes you do. Even if there. Even if you kind of like, it might not be rational to feel that way.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And yet you do.

[Kim]

So my, my research is just looking at my daughter.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Her.

[Kim]

It's just like empirical evidence based. Like, she looks pretty happy.

[Penn Holderness]

So.

[Kim]

And, and yes, to that point, like, as soon as sadness tries to creep in, I think that I'm. I. I say to myself, and even outwardly, like, what am I doing? Like, this is like, look how happy she is. Isn't that, isn't that the whole point of. Look, I'm using it as a question.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But wait, but wait. But let me just say, what if she weren't happy?

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

She may not be happy. There may be a time where she is not happy. So then.

[Kim]

Yeah, so. So that happened. Like she, she had like her first, like, not perfect day and first of many. Yeah, right. And, and, and I've. It made me. It definitely broke down that argument. I also, I gotta say, I think that Kim and I, with our couple dynamics, we're gonna have to take turns supporting each other. And if one person is really feeling it, I'd feel like the other person can't be feeling it. They have to, like, wait until they have some time.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So that is called splitting ambivalence.

[Kim]

Sorry. I guess I'm doing that. I don't know. Yes, I'm sure that's right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Splitting ambivalence is where one person says, this is over. I can't believe they're gone. I'm so sad. Nothing will be the same. And the other person's like, look on the bright side. This is what we wanted. Now we can be free. Like, look on the bright side. And so instead of like, both people having grief and relief and like feeling a mixture of feelings, both kind of polarize themselves. And that can be bad because then you start acting out role and you're not allowed to sort of say what might be true for you on the other side. And like, to a certain extent, I think it can be healthy. If one person's kind of losing it, then one person has, like, sometimes it feels good to be like, well, now I have to step up and be strong. But you don't want to get stuck in those roles because then you might end up, like, not admitting to yourself or to the other person that you often also have feelings of freedom and excitement or grief and sorrow and loss.

[Penn Holderness]

And this is all tracking. Gretchen, get out of our house. I will say it was interesting because yesterday, at the time of this recording, yesterday was Sunday. And usually Sunday is kind of a. Not very organized, but always ends up being a family day, you know, just like, you know, she's around.

[Kim]

Usually it's the loss of tradition that we're dealing, like, trouble with.

[Penn Holderness]

Well, I. He's very good about. He played tennis. He played pickleball. He. But usually my Sundays are around, like, okay, who needs to. Let's go get this. Let's do this. Let's set up for a week. Let's make dinner. So my Sundays are usually around.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Penn Holderness]

My family and my kids happily. And so when she was gone, I was like, whoa, what do I do now? So that's. I do need to bring some structure that I. That's about me, you know, instead of just about her.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But that is a great point, which is if you see, like, a gap, either physically or in time, that's making you distressed, like, there's the empty seat at the. At the table, or there's, like, the hole in the sundae. Part of it is to very intentionally say, like, well, let. Let me. Let me change things around. Like, I remember one family was saying, like, brunch was always a really, really big deal in their family, and it just didn't feel the same. And so they started going on a morning hike. So they just replaced it with something different. So it didn't feel like a whole. It felt like there was just, like, a whole new routine or like a family that instead of sitting in the dining room or instead of sitting in the kitchen, they started sitting in the dining room, and they just, like. So that their seating was completely reconfigured. It didn't feel like anybody was missing because it was new. And so maybe you. Do you want to say, like, okay, well, now let me rethink Sundays. Let me put myself in the middle of it somehow. Like, what's something that would be fun? And so I feel like my time is occupied in a way that feels right to me, but it doesn't feel like, oh, I keep thinking, oh, this is when we would have done this, and this is when we would have done that. Because you're like. Like doing something completely different. You just shake it up. Yeah, because. Because if we hold open those. Those spaces, then you always see the gap.

[Penn Holderness]

More on this after these words.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Elizabeth. You know, I love this time of year, but one thing I do not love is how short the days are. I feel like I'm always trying to cram so many things into a limited number of daylight hours. But one thing that's helping me really stay on top of my routine during this busy time is the new PE Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq. The Peloton Cross Training Tread plus is Peloton's most elevated equipment yet with features that help you plan, stay motivated and achieve peak performance. You can let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go while Peloton handles the rest.

[Podcast Host]

Peloton IQ creates a personal workout roadmap with weekly recommended classes led by instructors who match your mood, vibe and personality. Go on a 45 minute run on the tread plus or do a five minute stretch routine off of it. With just one smooth spin of the swivel screen, it offers endless ways to train for a well rounded routine. No matter how busy you are. This is cross training reimagined. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go explore the new peloton cross training tread [e-mail] you know Liza, two things.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That we talk about all the time. One is the importance of relationships in a happier life and also holding onto memories, often through photographs. And a way that these two things combine is through holiday cards. Because holiday cards do so much to connect us with the people that we love. And staying connected with those people during the holidays can feel so meaningful. But it can also feel like a lot of work. And so then it's easy to let the tradition of sending cards slide because it feels overwhelming. I love Shutterfly. I have used Shutterfly for years, perhaps decades, because Shutterfly makes it so easy to work with photographs, to create all different kinds of things and in particular cards.

[Podcast Host]

Their designs let you create a card that reflects exactly who you are and the customization makes it easy to send something personal without stress. Find your perfect holiday [e-mail] happier and start customizing today. Right now. You'll get free shipping on your your order with promo code Happier. This promo code can be stacked with any other offer. Details are on the site. As the air turns crisp and the holidays draw near, comfort becomes the best gift of all. Quince delivers layers that last, sweaters, outerwear, and everyday essentials that feel luxurious, look timeless, and make holiday dressing and gifting effortless. Gretch, you know how much I love quince quints. Their cashmere sweaters are in my rotation a few times a week in the winter, and my latest quince purchase is something I'm going to be wearing all winter. It's a featherless, quilted, long puffer jacket in silk and white. You know, off white is my new signature color, so I needed a White jacket. I love it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to Quince.com Gretchen for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Gretchen to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Gretchen there is one thing that.

[Podcast Host]

All people on earth have in common. We move through the world in a human body.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Body.

[Podcast Host]

Bodies ache, they bleed, they desire. They hold the stories of our lives. And when people have power over their bodies, when they can access the care their bodies need, they can begin to write their own stories.

[Gretchen Rubin]

International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is the world's largest network for sexual and reproductive health rights and justice. They are sharing real stories of people around the world. People like Alina in Malawi who walked miles to the nearest clinic to birth her baby, only to give birth along the way. Everybody holds a story and you can read just a few of them [e-mail] everybody.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay. How are you feeling, Penn?

[Kim]

Good. Good. I'm, I'm glad that you mentioned that. Was it dual ambivalence? Is that the term?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Splitting. Splitting ambivalence.

[Kim]

Splitting ambivalence. I need to work on that. I think, like, there are. And then I'm glad you clarified it. Like, there are, were some. There was kind of a situation where, like, you know, if, if we really were both on the same side. Like, nothing, no one gets food.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Like.

[Kim]

And so, and so I just, like, I'm, I'm learning so much. I'm like, I know I'm, I know I'm sad.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Kim]

I just, I don't think it's going to manifest itself the same way, but I think that's all right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's okay. And I think fathers sometimes, because men don't talk about it as much is like, women are often like, they have a whole bunch of friends who are going to get together and start a group or like, people are talking about it or like, for me, like, the day of our drop off, like, friends texted me, like, hey, big day. Like, how'd it go? You know, just kind of like reaching out, acknowledging that it was a big milestone. Whereas I don't think that fathers and men typically do that. And so they sometimes I think, think, feel, and then maybe they, you know, they're managing somebody else's emotions. And so I think sometimes it can be harder for them because they don't have as much opportunity to get support or like to sort of be visibly grappling with it the way there. There is a lot of talk about it among women, and I think some men do, but a lot of men, not so much.

[Kim]

And I. I need to think about that with my male relationships.

[Penn Holderness]

I do think there is a space for men, I think, to have these conversations in your male friendships, and I think they would welcome it. Yeah, I think they would. And they just need somebody to lead that conversation.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But. Or maybe they don't need to talk about it. Maybe they just need to hang out.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You know? Yeah, they just need to, like, do something together.

[Penn Holderness]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

To feel connected.

[Kim]

Well, I got, like, I've got a boys trip with some empty nesters coming up in a couple of weeks, so you do. Not empty nesters, but like, first drop offs.

[Penn Holderness]

Oh, first drop offs. Got it, got it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

First drop offs.

[Kim]

We're calling those first drop offs.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay, Gretchen, I could talk to you all day. And I again, I do treat this podcast as a personal therapy session.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Love it, Love it. This is great.

[Penn Holderness]

Okay, so what do you have in the works? What exciting new projects are you working on and how can we help support you?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, well, I am going to write a book about the empty nest. So this has been absolutely fascinating to me. I've been taking notes all the way through, through to what you're going through, and you made so many interesting observations. Yeah, so I'm working on that. I just had a book called Secrets of Adulthood that came out, which is all just kind of like one line, Secrets of Adulthood, which I basically did. I started doing it for my daughters. It's like all the lessons that I'd learned with time and experience the hard way that I wanted to give to them, but I'm like, I need these just as much as they do. I don't know about you, but I keep learning the same lessons over and over and over. Yes. Yeah. Working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. I mean, I have to. Or something that can happen at any time is often happens at no time. I think about that constantly. So that was. That was my most recent project. And then I have a, you know, a podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. And I have a newsletter, five Things Making me Happy, which is a super fun newsletter that I get to do every week. So. And I'm on social media and all the places. I love, I love to hear insights and observations and resources. I. I feel like the world is my My research assistant. So if anybody has any thoughts, observations, books to read about the empty nest, send them my way.

[Kim]

We need to find some sort of AI where we can just put her in our pocket and pull her out A Gretchen Rubin.

[Penn Holderness]

AI bot Gretchen.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Or you can just call me. Just call me. I love talking about stuff. This is great.

[Penn Holderness]

Thank you so much for doing this. This has been so helpful for me and I hope it's helpful for people listening no matter the stage. I mean, it's very dramatic dropping a kid off to kindergarten. It's a mat. You know, there's so many different say.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Goodbye to our children many times. And yeah, I just did my second drop off and, you know, I was like, how is it going to be the second time? It's like it happens over and over and over in our life as parents.

[Penn Holderness]

It gets better. Question mark Easier. No, it does.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It does. It does. Gets normal faster. Time is a big thing with this. I think it's like anything. It's like, give it time. You guys are still in the very first throws. Yeah, give it time.

[Penn Holderness]

You're so great.

[Kim]

It's always a sign of a good podcast when Kim ends it with, oh, good, good.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I love it.

[Kim]

That means it was a good one. You can always tell there's just a.

[Penn Holderness]

Lot to think about. There's a lot to think about. So thank you so much. It was so nice to meet you and to get to talk to you in person. So after hearing your voice in my ears in the podcast, so thank you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Ditto. Listening back to that conversation, I'm reminded how many parents are in this stage. Especially now with kids home for the holidays, it's a good time to notice what is working and what is not working and maybe make a few adjustments before everyone heads back. If you're in this stage two or getting ready for it, I. I would love to hear what's been working for you. The world is my research assistant. Please tell me your insights, observations, resources, questions. Send your thoughts and responses to podcastretchenrubin.com until next time. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. From the onward project. Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson and my little sister Michelle here we host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. You know, Gretchen, a lot of our.

[Penn Holderness]

Listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions Craig.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me? Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition. For more great advice, search for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Wherever you get podcasts, you can listen to Issa Rae on letting go of certain friendships, Keke Palmer on why disappointment is actually the key to career success, Seth and Lauren Rogan on caring for aging parents and so many more.