Elizabeth Craft (3:11)

And Gretch, I just want to say this is a great gift for people graduating high school or college or anything else. So pre order your gifts now and then you'll have them ready for May.

Gretchen Rubin (3:23)

Well, it's interesting because one of the things if you pre order like I'll send you a personalized signed book plate or a couple if you want. And what I've seen, now that I've started filling these in a lot of people, that is exactly what it is. I could tell because it's like happy graduation or good luck on your next chapter. So clearly that is what a lot of people have in mind. So for anyone needing a secret of adulthood at any stage this week, our try this at home suggestion is to understand someone better. Pay attention to the book someone loves or the TV show or the movie or the podcast or whatever.

Elizabeth Craft (3:56)

So Gretch, some of our try this at homes are very practical and some are more abstract. This one is a little bit more abstract.

Gretchen Rubin (4:03)

Yes. Okay, so I will explain this one. Yes, it is a little bit vague, I will admit that, but I feel it very strongly. It comes from two examples that recently came into my consciousness that got me thinking about this. Okay, so I recently read an excellent novel by Kaylee Ann Bradley called the Ministry of Time. Highly recommend the Ministry of Time. And in it, the unnamed narrator gives the other main character, a character named Commander Graham Gore, a novel to read, which is Jeffrey House's classic thriller from 1939 called Rogue Mail. And from that moment on, sort of a theme as the book is that Graham Gore is reading and rereading this novel. And it actually plays a pivotal moment in the book. And in fact, Ministry of Time mentioned this novel so much that I got very curious and I read it. And when I read it, I was like, oh, I understand exactly why Commander Graham Gore would be very, very drawn to this story. There's something very powerful in this novel that is speaking to that character. This reminded me of a passage from one of my very favorite books of all time, Marilynne Robinson's Gilead, which a book that I've read many times. I think it's one of the greatest novels in English. And in this book, there's a main character, a man named Reverend John Ames. And at the time of the novel, he's 76 years old. And he is writing letters to his son because he has health issues. He knows that he is at the end of his life. And within the story, we know that he's full of sorrow because he will be leaving his wife, Lila, and his young son, who is just six years old. He married them very late in life, and it's been like a miracle for him. So he's so happy with his wife and his son, but he knows that he's at the end of his life. And he's also worried because this character, Jack, who is the grown son of his closest friend, has returned home. And this man, who has been a lifelong troublemaker, the Reverend is worried this guy might have his eyes on Lila. So Reverend Ames is worried about whether he did the right thing by marrying Lila, given that he was old. And he's worried that he hasn't done enough to provide for his family. And here's the part that's significant. His wife, Lila, who. She is not much of a reader, so she goes to the public library, and she brings home a novel called the Trail of the Lonesome Pine. And he sees that she loves this book. She can't even prepare meals because she's just reading it so avidly. She rereads it. She just loves it. And he becomes intrigued, and so he picks it up himself. And the story of the novel is about a beautiful young woman who is married to a much older man. But then, as Reverend Ames describes like, it all ends up fine. She loves him, and only and forever. And this is the part that is so beautiful to me. So Reverend Ames writes to his son. It strikes me that your mother could not have said a more heartening word to me by any other means than she did by loving that unremarkable book so much that I noticed and read it, too. That was providence telling me what she could not have told me. And so I think it's this great example of when somebody's returning to a novel. It really means something to them. Well, we should look at it, too, because surely it will reveal something. There's a reason that they are drawn to it and that can tell us something about them and help us grow closer to them.

Elizabeth Craft (7:18)

Well, and you mentioned books, but it could be anything, like movies or a TV show.

Gretchen Rubin (7:22)

Well, Elizabeth, I think of you and Mad Men. Like you were trying for years to get me to watch Mad Men. I resisted because I thought it was too sad. And then you just describing the last episode and how what an artistically overwhelming experience it was for you. And it's the kind of thing where you can't just play six minute clip on YouTube. You have to watch the whole series to understand everything in that series is leading to that moment. And then when I watched it, I was like, oh my gosh, I understand Elizabeth so much better because I understand why this was such an overwhelming, transcendently satisfying artistic experience for you.

Elizabeth Craft (7:57)

Yes. Even though I have nothing to do with admin in the 60s.

Gretchen Rubin (8:01)

Right.

Elizabeth Craft (8:02)

What led up to that end moment of him having the idea for the Coke ad? Definitely the smile resonated.

Gretchen Rubin (8:09)

It was all just in this wordless moment. And then it was anyway, so that was very revealing to me about you.

Elizabeth Craft (8:16)

I think people do this also to get to know each other. Like for instance, when I first started dating Adam, he loved this book, Ask the Dust by John Fante. It's very LA book. It's about an aspiring writer struggling in depression era Louisiana. And it's not that it was Adam's story, but just in reading something that he loved, you get to know somebody.

Gretchen Rubin (8:41)

Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Craft (8:41)

Through their tastes, I guess.

Gretchen Rubin (8:43)

If they're interested in something, it shows you. I mean, I think we often do this with our children. If our children are very interested in something, we'll often try it out ourselves to understand what it is that might be appealing to them or as a way to connect with them through TV or a book or a podcast or a movie or whatever.

Elizabeth Craft (9:00)

Yes, I struggle with this, Gretch, because everything Jack loves, I feel like I have a negative interest in like anime, video games, golf. Now, luckily though, he has started to listen to a podcast, which is great, called the Rest is History.

Gretchen Rubin (9:15)

Oh, yes.

Elizabeth Craft (9:16)

Where they do a lot of episodes about different times in history. So he actually said to me the other day, mom, listen to the French Revolution. So I'm listening to that now. So that's something we can connect on. Yeah, but I want to be someone who wants to play golf with him, but I'm just not.

Gretchen Rubin (9:33)

Well, you know, with my operation Nick's knowledge, I think to a degree we can make ourselves interested in something, but that's not something that you can do with just anything. I think you do need some kind of foothold. Eleanor a few times, you know, because she's a freshman in college, she's told me to read something and she's like, well, I think you would find this very interesting. You should read it. And I'm like, yes, I will read that. How wonderful that she's recommending something. I will read it. One of them was called Death, Grief, and Mourning. And it was a collection of academic papers. And, like, I ordered it, and then I was like, whoa, okay, I need her to, like, show me what part to start because it looked extremely dense. And then she told me to read Non zero, which a lot of people love and was a super popular book. But, I mean, again, I was like, okay, I need to clear some time, because I really do want to connect with her with something that she said that she found really interesting. But, yeah, it's nice when it's something that you just easily can access.

Elizabeth Craft (10:24)

Yes, yes.

Gretchen Rubin (10:26)

Well. And this reminds me of an aphorism from Goethe where he writes that the clearest indication of character is what people find laughable. So that's also another thing that we can think if we're trying to connect with people is, what do they find funny? What do they laugh at? That's another way to connect with them. And maybe that's a more fun way than something like golf. And here's a question I have for you, Elizabeth. You're a TV writer, and you're also writing a thriller. Do you think about mentioning or showing what people love to read or watch or listen to or something as a way to deepen their character?

Elizabeth Craft (10:57)

Definitely. I think, for sure we do. I think thinking about what a character likes, just like you're saying, you get to know them better and you can share who they are. Like, if someone likes jazz versus pop versus hip hop, classical music, that alone can tell you a lot about someone.

Gretchen Rubin (11:16)

I remember in the fix where there was that very shady lawyer, and then all of a sudden he sits down and he starts playing this classical piano, and you're like, whoa, this is a whole other side to this guy.

Elizabeth Craft (11:27)

Yes. That was one of our favorite moments. I think that was in the finale, and we found out that the actor was, like, an amazing pianist. And we're like, okay, that's going in the show, because that's gonna blow everybody's mind.

Gretchen Rubin (11:41)

Yeah. And it really was, because I didn't know that was coming. And I remember just watching it and being like, where did that come from? Because you can see that it's him playing. You know, that it's not some fakey fake.

Elizabeth Craft (11:51)

Yes. And then.

Gretchen Rubin (11:52)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Craft (11:52)

What characters are reading? Gretchen, several times we've been watching TV and seen characters reading the Happiness Project.

Gretchen Rubin (12:00)

I know. Yeah. Usually for ironic effect, I will say. But I'll take it.

Elizabeth Craft (12:05)

One famous time that I remember is in Big Little Lies, Shailene Woodley's character, who's a bit down on her luck, struggling. She's got it on her bedside table.

Gretchen Rubin (12:17)

Yeah. I think it flashes when. Is she putting like a handgun in her drawer or something?

Elizabeth Craft (12:22)

Yes, that's right. Yes, Something like that.

Gretchen Rubin (12:24)

Yeah, it was. Yeah, there was a moment like. That's funny. Well, one of my secrets of adulthood from my book. Have I mentioned, Elizabeth, that I have a book coming out?

Elizabeth Craft (12:32)

I didn't have any clue.

Gretchen Rubin (12:34)

I have a book coming out called Secrets of Adulthood. This is related. It's that taking advice signals affection or respect. When someone recommends a book, read it. When a person recommends a TV show, watch it. And so again, this is a kind of adjacent, which is. It's a way to show affection and respect. And it's also a way to get insight into their character.

Elizabeth Craft (12:53)

Yes.

Gretchen Rubin (12:54)

So let us know if you do try this at home and how, if you feel that you can understand someone better by paying attention to the book or movie or TV show or podcast that someone loves. Is this something that works for you? What did it reveal? Let us know on Instagram threads, TikTok, Facebook. Drop us an email@podcastretchenrubin.com or as always, go to the show notes. This is happiercast.com 527.

Elizabeth Craft (13:16)

Coming up, we've got a happiness hack about photos. But first, this break, let's talk about a small thing that can make a big difference if you have diabetes. The Freestyle Libre 3 sensor. It's amazing how the sensor gives you real time glucose readings so you can see the impact of every meal and activity.

Gretchen Rubin (13:45)

To make better choices, the Freestyle Libre 3 sensor can help you live life with diabetes on your terms. This is progress. You can try it for free at FreeStyleIBRE US. Offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply for prescription only. Safety info found at FreestyleLibre US.

Elizabeth Craft (14:10)

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Therapy can feel like a big investment, but the state of your mind is just as important as your physical health. And therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury. With online therapy, you get quality care at a price that makes sense. And it can help you with everything from anxiety to everyday stress. I've said it many times, Gretchen. Without therapy, I don't think I'd be where I am today in my career because it helps so much with my stress and anxiety.

Gretchen Rubin (14:41)

With more than 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. Having served over 5 million people globally, it's convenient, too. You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. Plus, you can switch therapists at any time. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com gretchenrubin to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com GretchenRubin okay, Gretch, we are back.

Elizabeth Craft (15:17)

With this week's Happiness Hack.

Gretchen Rubin (15:19)

Okay, so this is one. If you have to pick out a photo, which we've talked many times about, you have to pick out a headshot or a photo of yourself or this, that, or the other thing. Here's the hack. Studies show that people are not good at picking out the photo that others think show them that they're most attractive. And so researchers find that when we pick, we pick photos that are not the ones that strangers would pick. And it turns out the more familiar we are with a face, the worse we are at seeing how it looks to everybody else. And of course, the face that we know the best is our own face.

Elizabeth Craft (15:53)

Well, this is so interesting. I've noticed a trend on social media of people, like, if they need an author photo, let's say, posting four photos and asking for a poll on which one they should use on their book. So this makes sense to me.

Gretchen Rubin (16:10)

So this is very wise to do because in the research, participants rated images on attractiveness, trustworthiness, and competence and selected what photo they thought would work better for, like social media, a dating profile and a professional profile. And across the board, the pictures that people pick for themselves performed worse on those measures. And strangers agreed on pictures that were judged higher.

Elizabeth Craft (16:35)

Fascinating.

Gretchen Rubin (16:36)

So this is a good idea. If you need to pick a photo, ask people who don't know you very well, because the less well they know your face, the better they are will be at picking the photos that others will rate the highest.

Elizabeth Craft (16:47)

All right, good advice.

Gretchen Rubin (16:49)

And now for a happier interview. We are very excited today to be talking to Rich Benjamin, a longtime friend of mine. We're actually in a writers group together.

Elizabeth Craft (16:58)

Oh, Gretch, you know I love writers groups. I'm a big fan.

Gretchen Rubin (17:01)

Yes, you are a big proponent of the value of writers groups.

Elizabeth Craft (17:05)

Rich is an American cultural critic, anthropologist, and author. In addition to his first book, Searching for Whitopia, he has written for places like the New Yorker, the New York Times, the Guardian, the Washington Post, and the New York Review of Books.

Gretchen Rubin (17:19)

His memoir, Talk to Lessons from a Family Forged by History, just hit the shelves and it has been greeted with wide acclaim. Yes, Salman Rushdie. Yes, Salman Rushdie wrote a brilliant, absorbing book. A family story, a tale of power, exile and calamity. A love letter to Benjamin's mother that becomes a deep look into the darkness of Haitian history. And it's also a no holds barred autobiography I couldn't stop reading.

Elizabeth Craft (17:47)

Here's a description. Rich Benjamin's mother, Danielle Finole, grew up the eldest in a large family living a comfortable life in Port au Prince. Her mother was a schoolteacher, her father a populist hero, a labor leader and politician. The first true champion of the black masses, he eventually became the country's president in 1957. But two weeks after his inauguration, that life was shattered. Soldiers took Danielle's parents at gunpoint and put them on a plane to New York. A coup hatched by the Eisenhower administration. Danielle and her siblings were kidnapped and ultimately smuggled out of the country. Growing up, Rich knew little of this. No one in his family spoke of it. He didn't know why his mother struggled with emotional connection, why she was so erratic, so quick to anger. It would take Rich years to piece together the turmoil that carried forward from his grandfather to his mother to him, and then to bring that story to light. In Talk to Me, he doesn't just paint the portrait of his family, but a bold, pugnacious portrait of America, of the human cost of the country's hostilities abroad, the experience of migrants on these shores, and how the indelible ties of family endure through triumph and loss from generation to generation.

Gretchen Rubin (19:05)

Hello, Rich.

Elizabeth Craft (19:06)

Hi, Rich.

Rich Benjamin (19:08)

Hi, Gretchen. Hi, Liz.

Gretchen Rubin (19:09)

We're so happy to have you here. Now, Rich, we're so excited to talk to you about this book. But to give people a flavor of the text, would you read from the end of chapter one?

Rich Benjamin (19:18)

Absolutely. Even though my mother came from an important political family, she never spoke of her childhood. And when questions about her father came up, she went deaf rather than hear the query. I came to know at an early age that if I persisted, the family temper would be unleashed in an ice hot slap, a palm of flame stinging my cheek. Your grandfather was obsessed with politics to the point of mental derangement, my Tante Zhijian, my mother's aunt, once told me, when I was a boy, shaking her head, it was his malady. This small rant was a notable exception to my family's studied silence. As I was growing up up, my family revealed virtually nothing about this history or their feelings. Only generic snippets of my grandfather surfaced, a vague nod to his legend here, a salute to his good looks there. Otherwise he was purged from our dinner table conversations banned from Christmas Eve reminiscence, hushed from summer family reunions when my aunties would sit on the porch clutching their caftans between their legs, fanning themselves, gossiping about anything but him and their childhoods. I used to pester my mother for details all the time. Now, mostly, I let her be. She is 81 years old. She absolutely does not want to tell this story. It is not her choice to salvage damage from history. It is mine. As my mother ages, I worry I am squandering a vanishing chance to really know her, our history, my family's existence in Haiti. Those disremembered years dwell like a caesara in our minds, lost stanzas in an epic poem. If ever I am to understand my mother, I must speak to that void.

Gretchen Rubin (21:08)

Wow. So powerful.

Rich Benjamin (21:10)

Thank you.

Elizabeth Craft (21:11)

Really is so rich. As a child, you knew your family came from Haiti. And at a certain point, as an adult, you realized there was so much you didn't know about your family history, which is true for a lot of us, but for you, when you went looking, you found a tremendous amount of material in places where most people would not. So talk to us about how you started to want to uncover those family secrets and where that led you.

Rich Benjamin (21:36)

Well, Liz, around 2010, I just finished my first book, and I was leaving my office in Manhattan, and I caught glimpse of the flat screen TV in the lobby. And suddenly, an earthquake had leveled Haiti. 300,000 people had died in the earthquake. 2010 in 2010 was January of 2010. And among the images I saw plastered all over the media, besides the devastating faces pleading for help, was a crushed presidential palace. So I began to wonder about the person who occupied that building, and that was my grandfather. And so for me, not knowing no longer became tenable. I had to search out this man, search out my family history. So I packed my bags and went to Haiti.

Gretchen Rubin (22:25)

Well, when you got there, it turned out a lot of that had been destroyed, right?

Rich Benjamin (22:29)

A lot. 80% of the capital was in rubble. But still, I went to search out his old associates. I went to search out his old secretary to find out who is this man, what was his history and what he had to do with my mom.

Gretchen Rubin (22:46)

Well, in your memoir, you write a lot about your relationship with your mother, who comes across as a very complex and brilliant and resilient but difficult woman. And so you're writing about her strengths, her weaknesses, her influence on you. So what was it like to explore that relationship through the book.

Rich Benjamin (23:02)

It was a challenge. First there were the research challenges, the sleuthing challenges of the journey going through the CIA archives.

Gretchen Rubin (23:12)

Okay, before we get to your mother. Yes. Talk about your FOIA requests and all that.

Rich Benjamin (23:16)

So I went to go look for my grandfather in the archive, and I hit a gold mine. 300 pages of documents about him and the CIA operatives in Haiti, and the State Department operatives in Haiti in the 1950s had been spying on him. So that became this gold mine of information.

Elizabeth Craft (23:35)

Wow.

Gretchen Rubin (23:36)

How did you know to look there?

Rich Benjamin (23:38)

Well, it was the height of the Cold War, and I suspected that as a labor leader, I was just hoping maybe just a little glimpse of him here, a little nibble of him there, but suddenly there's this big trove of information. So where my mother would not talk about the past, I figured maybe the archive would do.

Gretchen Rubin (23:57)

I remember that the best photograph that you have of your grandfather came from.

Rich Benjamin (24:01)

The CIA, and that's the irony, is to excavate a family member who I've never met, by the way, and who my mother didn't talk about, just to find him in our national security archive. And so I did. And so to your other question, that was a challenge is A, finding him in these documents, and B, my mother never really talking about this.

Elizabeth Craft (24:26)

So, Rich, what has been your family's response to writing the book now that it's done and out?

Rich Benjamin (24:32)

My mother hasn't read the book, really, but my other family members are just grateful to read about the past because it's not documented or discussed or commented in any one place. And so it's kind of a relief and a balm for them to read. Wow, this is what happened to our family?

Gretchen Rubin (24:52)

And did your mother say, hey, Rich, I just want you to know that I'm never gonna read it? Or, what was that conversation like? Or was it a not conversation?

Rich Benjamin (25:00)

It's a not conversation. It's one of our not conversations, Gretchen. It's really an element of denial where she just doesn't read it. But in fairness to her, she lived this history, so she doesn't want to hear about it again, whereas I haven't lived this history, and I definitely wanted it uncovered.

Gretchen Rubin (25:19)

And do you think she understood why it was that you felt that it was so important to really. I mean, you did this very thorough historical, journalistic account of year by year, what was going on. Do you think she understands why it was that you felt compelled to do that, even if she herself doesn't want to review it?

Rich Benjamin (25:38)

I think she definitely understands. I Think, Gretchen. And this is what I hope readers get from this book is that things happen to our families, and we're busy educating our kids. We're bathing them, we're putting food on the table, and we're not always cognizant of what's going on. And so for me to go back and say, this is what happened to our family, that's of great value. And I wish all families could do that. And for this, for readers, this is kind of a template and a journey to do that. You know, what. What's said in a family, what's not unsaid, what do they go through in terms of historical episodes that they don't understand, whether it be the Irish Potato Famine, whether it be the Holocaust, whether it be the great Manifest Destiny West. What happens to a family in history? Why do we ignore it, and how can we talk about it?

Elizabeth Craft (26:35)

And do you feel like you have a new understanding, like, of your life as it is now because of understanding the history?

Rich Benjamin (26:43)

I do. I do. And one of the things I love about Gretchen's Happiness Project is it can tell me about myself in a very useful way. And the history that I learned is a nice compliment to that. The historical patterns that happened to my grandfather, that then happened to my mother and that then happened to me show me about my family, show me about myself in a way that's very useful.

Gretchen Rubin (27:13)

So things that had been inexplicable or maybe frustrating or angering your neck, I mean, it does seem like you have a lot more compassion for your mother because you understand so much more with so much more texture, what it was that she went through as a child.

Rich Benjamin (27:27)

Exactly. The good, the bad, and the ugly, literally our patterns, literally our behaviors and our thought processes and the way we are as human beings. You know, sometimes, if it's our way of being aloof or our way of being sad or our way of resilience, I learned that through history, in complement to other wonderful tools like the Happiness Project.

Gretchen Rubin (27:52)

Well, I know, you know, Danny Shapiro, who of course has the wonderful podcast Family Secrets. And one of the refrains in Family Secrets is that she says that people who have a big family secret often become snoops, that if you talk to people who have had a big family secret as children or then later on, they really want to become investigators. And that is exactly what happened to you. There was this moment where all of a sudden you became so preoccupied with the idea of getting all this information, where it seemed like before that you were not interested. You had the family culture of we don't talk about that. That's not really that interesting. And then all of a sudden, I mean, at least reading the memoir, it kind of seemed like a flip switch for you.

Rich Benjamin (28:30)

A flip switched for me. I became a snoop. I became nosy and dogged in uncovering these secrets. There was no way this book was not gonna get caught complete. I just had to know these secrets. And the thing about secrets is there's rarely just one of them. Secrets multiply, secrets compound. Secrets build on each other. The more secrets I found, the more I realized that there are and how interrelated they are.

Elizabeth Craft (29:01)

Well and rich, you're writing about an understudied time and place in history, and of course you found that a lot of valuable material was lost. Austin, hades, earthquake in 2010. So was it a lot of pressure to realize that you're creating an important historical account that other scholars may use? It wasn't just about you. It's sort of a bigger thing.

Rich Benjamin (29:23)

Absolutely. The history of Haiti is under discussed. It's mis discussed. And I think often American historians might feel territorial about it, like, this is our history, but rarely is it told from the perspective of someone who has Haitian descent. And so, Liz, I absolutely felt that honor and that responsibility to tell this. Well.

Gretchen Rubin (29:50)

Well, you tell it. I mean, there's so. It's so thorough in its facts, but it's also a page turner. So you really were very able to capture that moment in history, but also how it reverberated through your family and also through your own life. It kind of operated on so many levels at the same time. It was really masterful, but rich. Completely switching gears. Before we let you go, we ask every guest, is there a try this at home suggestion that you'd suggest for other listeners to try in their own lives as a way to be happier, healthier, more productive, or more creative?

Rich Benjamin (30:23)

I have a suggestion for readers and listeners to do all of the above. And for me, it boils down to really owning your time, your creativity, and your mental well being. And that suggestion is, and I keep it religiously and rigidly, is I absolutely do not look at social media or the news three hours before going to bed and three hours after waking up. I bookend my sleep by three hours on either side, going to bed and waking up. And those three precious hours that bookend my sleep, absolutely no news, absolutely no social media. And it's just a wonderful way of being proactive and empowered about my Zen, about my creativity, my thought flow. And so I love that. And it's something I've been doing, I'd say for four years now, since the pandemic.

Elizabeth Craft (31:25)

It's like intermittent fasting, only with media.

Gretchen Rubin (31:28)

Exactly. But also, I know, Rich, you're upholder. So you said you do it rigidly. I'm like, yeah, that's that upholder energy. Let's be rigid about all the things that free us. Yeah. Discipline is freedom.

Rich Benjamin (31:38)

Gretchen, I'm in solidarity with you as an upholder.

Gretchen Rubin (31:41)

Yes, exactly. Well, that's a great idea because you. It's not that you're shutting yourself off or closing your. Your eyes to social media and to the news, but you're just making sure that you're imbibing it in a way that doesn't interfere with other values in your life.

Rich Benjamin (31:55)

Yes, yes. And the reason I offer this tip to listeners is all hours are not created equal.

Gretchen Rubin (32:02)

That is so true.

Rich Benjamin (32:03)

Those hours are particularly special to my Zen, to my creativity, and to my happiness. And that's why I'm very particular about what gets into my head in those hours.

Gretchen Rubin (32:15)

Great idea. Well, thank you, Rich. This was a fascinating discussion and a fascinating book memoir. Talk to me.

Elizabeth Craft (32:22)

Thank you, Rich.

Rich Benjamin (32:23)

Thank you, Gretchen. Thank you, Liz.

Elizabeth Craft (32:25)

Coming up, Gretchen gives herself a very un. Outer order inner call home demerit. But first, this break. Gretchen, I have always loved water slides. And at Great Wolf Lodge, you can take your whole family on an unforgettable adventure. It's a world of fun, all under one roof with lots of water slides. There's also wave pools, depending on where you go, lazy rivers, water basketball, and every water park is always a warm 84 degrees, just the way I like it.

Gretchen Rubin (33:10)

Along with the amazing water slides which range from the high speed thrill rides to the toddler friendly slopes, they've also got high flying ropes courses, miniature golf, climbing walls, mini bowling, virtual reality rooms, and a massive arcade. That's just some of the things that everybody in the whole family can do. And best of all, it's just a short drive away. So bring your pack together and wolf out. Learn more@greatwolf.com greatwolf.com book now and strengthen your pack at Great Wolf Lodge. You know, as parents, we want to help our children succeed in school. But I remember when Eleanor was struggling with math, she was asking questions on the homework that I just did not feel equipped to answer. And that's where a program like IXL can really make a difference. IXL Learning is an online learning program for kids. It covers math, language arts, science and social studies. IXL is designed to help your kids really understand and master topics in a fun way with positive feedback. Eleanor needed something exactly like ixl, Something that would really take her through the topic, help her keep up with class, and help her really understand the fundamentals.

Elizabeth Craft (34:23)

IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and happier with Gretchen Rubin. Listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today@ixl.com Happier visit ixl.com Happier to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Okay, Gretch, we are back. It is time for demerits and gold stars. And this is your episode to have a demerit.

Gretchen Rubin (34:58)

Okay. Yes. So I wrote a whole book. Outer order intercom. I love outer order. I love clearing clutter. Elizabeth, my idea of a good time would be to come over to your house and clear up your office. I'm literally licking my chops. Okay, so here is something that I've done that is exactly contradictory to that and is just the opposite. So, as you know, Elizabeth, because everybody who knows me knows this about me, I intensely dislike the new environmentally friendly bulbs.

Elizabeth Craft (35:27)

Yes.

Gretchen Rubin (35:28)

To me, this light is hideous. I don't understand how everybody isn't talking about this all the time. I actually did research to see, like, do I have other cones and rods in my eyes that. That it, like, literally looks different to me because it seemed like I was seeing. I see things that other people don't see. So anyway, I go on and on about this all the time. It's definitely tiresome for everyone, I'm sure. So as part of this, my daughter Eliza, for Christmas, gave me this special pink bulb. It came in this special packing. The idea is, like, you use this pink bulb, and it has this beautiful light, and maybe it's very flattering or whatever. How long ago did she give it to me? At least two years, maybe three years. It could possibly be four years. It has been sitting in its package on my desk right next to my phone for years. And I look at it from time to time, and I'm like, oh, I can't deal with it. And then I just forget that it's there. But why is this thing sitting on my desk? Why don't I just try it out? Who am I to give anybody advice on clutter clearing? I'm absolutely perplexed. What is my problem?

Elizabeth Craft (36:27)

Well, and you may love this pink light, Gretch.

Gretchen Rubin (36:29)

I might. I don't know why. It just seems every time I think of trying it out. It just seems so exhausting. I guess it's because it's judging the light. And I find the light, the judging the light is very confusing. It's like describing smells. It's very hard to capture.

Elizabeth Craft (36:45)

So my question is, are you gonna try it, or are you gonna.

Gretchen Rubin (36:48)

Well, I'm giving myself the demerit. But if I'm honest, am I gonna do this today? No. Am I gonna do it tomorrow? Probably not. So when am I gonna do it? I have no idea. I mean, I need to do it. I should just do it or get it off my desk. That real estate is too valuable to just have something sitting there, not doing anything. So I should deal with it one way or the other. Okay, I've given myself the demerit. Action will follow, we hope. But, Elizabeth, what's your gold star?

Elizabeth Craft (37:14)

Well, I am giving a gold star to a guest that we had on Happier in Hollywood. Her name is Laverne McKinnon. Oh, you listened to that interview?

Gretchen Rubin (37:23)

It was fascinating. If it had been 10 times longer, I would have been happy.

Elizabeth Craft (37:27)

And if anyone wants to Listen, it's episode 408 of Happier in Hollywood. But Laverne is a former CBS executive who was very high up, who Sarah and I had met years ago in that role, and she's become a career coach. And we saw her substack when we got all into substack, which is called Moonshot. Mentor, I should mention. But we had Laverne on, and she talked about an idea, which is career grief, which I had never heard anyone talk about, which is basically about how much so many of us identify with our careers and how when it changes or goes away, you really experience grief over it, and it can mess you up for a decade or more. And it's just something that's really not acknowledged, not talked about. There aren't sort of rituals around it. So I just give her a big gold star because I'm like, this is a huge idea. And I think, especially right now, a lot of people are dealing with this. Gretch, you. And I love a big idea. So when somebody has a big idea that I feel like gives me a light bulb moment, I just want to acknowledge it. So gold star to Laverne.

Gretchen Rubin (38:37)

It's interesting because it's one of those things that you just hear that phrase career grief, and you instantly know what she's talking about. You instantly understand why it's significant. And then you're. At least when I heard it, I was sort of puzzled. I'm like, why Is this new? Why does this feel so fresh? Because it is something that feels pervasive.

Elizabeth Craft (38:54)

Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin (38:55)

But then once you have a name for it, I feel like then it's much easier to deal with it because you can kind of look at it straightforwardly and clearly.

Elizabeth Craft (39:02)

Exactly.

Gretchen Rubin (39:02)

And I know you said that, like, you've gotten a really overwhelming response. Like a lot of people, this is an idea that's really resonating with them.

Elizabeth Craft (39:08)

Yeah. I've had a couple lawyers reach out and say how much it meant to them.

Gretchen Rubin (39:13)

Oh, interesting.

Elizabeth Craft (39:13)

So it's not just people in the entertainment business. You know, Laverne has been working with federal workers, so it goes across the board of all professions.

Gretchen Rubin (39:22)

Well, and then it's like, there's so many changes. There's retirement, there's getting fired, your job just changing. I mean, I know people where they're like, it's the same job, but it's not the same job.

Rich Benjamin (39:30)

Well.

Elizabeth Craft (39:31)

And even if you go up the ladder.

Gretchen Rubin (39:33)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Craft (39:33)

You can have career grief over what you're giving up, which is sort of a more closeness, congeniality, being like one of the gang. Whereas now you're a boss. That can be a transition.

Gretchen Rubin (39:45)

Well, I'll tell you, if anybody listened to the startup podcast, there's an episode that's extremely moving where Alex Bloomberg basically gets incredibly choked up when he realizes that he's basically promoted himself out of the job that he loves to do and is good at into a job where he's not very good at and doesn't enjoy it, and he feels trapped and hopeless. Yeah, it's very moving. But it's interesting, like, you don't think he's experiencing career grief, but once you say that, the whole situation becomes clearer.

Elizabeth Craft (40:11)

Yes. So I feel like it's something we're gonna be thinking about, talking about, ruminating on. So that is my gold star.

Gretchen Rubin (40:18)

Yeah. And if people wanna look up Laverne McKinnon, hopefully her URL is lavernemckinnon.com yes, the resource for this week. Okay. I've mentioned now that I have this new book, Secrets of Adulthood. If you would like to pre order it, if you would like to request a personalized book play for yourself or some graduate or just some friend or whomever. If you want to find links to retailers, if you want to read a description, and if you would like to pre order, which I would very much appreciate, it's all@happiercast.com and Elizabeth, what are we reading? Speaking of books that I'm writing, what are you reading?

Elizabeth Craft (40:53)

Right Now, Gretch, I'm just reading War and Peace, just hanging on to that.

Gretchen Rubin (40:57)

It is kind of funny when you're like, well, the only book I'm reading is War and Peace.

Elizabeth Craft (41:00)

Yeah, but it's only a chapter a day or sometimes a little more.

Gretchen Rubin (41:04)

Yeah, sometimes I cheat and read a couple chapters at once. There's some cliffhangers in there. And I am reading Crush by Ada Calhoun. And that's it for this episode of Happier. Remember to try this at home. To understand someone better, read a book or watch something or listen to something that they love. Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you.

Elizabeth Craft (41:24)

Thanks so much to our guest, Rich Benjamin. Read his terrific memoir in History Talk to me. Thank you to our executive producer Chuck Reed and everyone at Lemonada.

Gretchen Rubin (41:34)

And rate us, Review us, follow us. And here's your rhyming reminder. If you like this the show, tell others. You know, it really does help people discover our show.

Elizabeth Craft (41:43)

Until next week, I'm Elizabeth Craft.

Gretchen Rubin (41:44)

And I'm Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward.

Elizabeth Craft (42:00)

So, Gretchen, based on this, try this at home today. I think we have established I absolutely need to read the English Understand wool.

Gretchen Rubin (42:09)

Yes. You know, I'm recommending this book to everybody. And listen, it is so short, it is so delightful. It will give you a lot of insight into me. I think that I love it.

Elizabeth Craft (42:18)

Okay, I gotta read it.

Gretchen Rubin (42:19)

You'll love it. From the Onward project.