Introducing: Confessions of a Female Founder with Meghan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin – "Introducing: Confessions of a Female Founder with Meghan"

Overview

In the April 24, 2025 release of Happier with Gretchen Rubin, Gretchen Rubin and her sister Elizabeth Craft introduce an exciting new addition to their repertoire—the podcast Confessions of a Female Founder hosted by Megan Markle under The Onward Project. This premiere episode features an in-depth conversation with Reshma Saujani, the dynamic founder of Girls Who Code and Moms First. The discussion delves into Reshma’s journey as a female entrepreneur, her personal struggles, and her insights on fostering a supportive environment for women in the workforce.

Introduction to Confessions of a Female Founder

Gretchen and Elizabeth kick off the episode by unveiling Confessions of a Female Founder, highlighting its mission to inspire and inform aspiring female entrepreneurs through candid discussions with successful women who have built thriving businesses from the ground up. Megan Markle, the host, emphasizes the podcast's focus on the "sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus" that propel women to success.

Guest Spotlight: Reshma Saujani

Reshma Saujani, renowned for founding Girls Who Code and Moms First, joins Megan Markle to share her compelling story. Reshma recounts her early life, detailing how her parents, refugees from India, instilled in her a deep sense of empathy and a desire to serve the community. This background fueled her passion for public service and advocacy, leading her to establish organizations aimed at closing the gender gap.

Early Challenges and Resilience

Reshma opens up about the adversity she faced growing up in a predominantly white, working-class area outside Chicago. Despite bullying and attempts to assimilate, she maintained her cultural identity and channeled her experiences into activism. At [07:38], Reshma reflects, “No time to get down, 'Cause I'm moving up,” illustrating her determination to overcome obstacles.

Educational Pursuits and Setbacks

Reshma shares her ambition to pursue law, inspired by mentors like Leon Higginbotham Jr. Her journey to Yale Law School was fraught with challenges, including the death of her mentor right before her application. Undeterred, she secured a spot at Georgetown and later made a pivotal decision to run for Congress. Despite her efforts, she faced a significant defeat, which she describes at [12:05]: “I realized, like, I'm not broken. This sucks. But I'm not broken.”

Founding Girls Who Code

Transitioning from politics to entrepreneurship, Reshma founded Girls Who Code, aiming to empower young women in technology. She discusses the early support she received from influential figures like Jack Dorsey and the strategic decisions that led to the nonprofit’s rapid growth. Reshma advises aspiring nonprofit leaders to seek advice first, as it can naturally lead to funding opportunities, as mentioned at [22:23]: "Just go for advice, because otherwise, people aren't immediately feeling pressurized."

Leadership Transition and Personal Struggles

Reshma details her decision to step down from Girls Who Code to focus on Moms First, emphasizing the importance of passing the torch to female leaders of color. She candidly shares her personal battles with miscarriages and health issues, highlighting the immense courage required to prioritize self-care over relentless activism. At [28:59], she admits, “I can't do this anymore. I need to take over. I need you to run this organization.”

Advocating for Structural Changes

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the need for systemic changes to support women, particularly mothers, in the workforce. Reshma critiques the societal expectation for women to balance career and motherhood without adequate support, advocating for policies like paid leave and flexible work arrangements. She asserts at [38:06]: “We have to give people grace and flexibility and give women ownership over their time.”

Future Endeavors and Legacy

Looking ahead, Reshma expresses her commitment to redefining midlife for women and addressing the persistent gender pay gap. She discusses her new initiatives and the importance of maintaining hope and resilience in the face of ongoing challenges. At [42:16], she poignantly states, “I might die with women having less rights than they had when I was born. That we may not see a female president in my lifetime.”

Key Takeaways

• Resilience Through Failure: Reshma’s narrative underscores the importance of viewing failure not as a defeat but as an opportunity for growth and redirection.

• Structural Support for Women: The conversation highlights the critical need for organizational and societal frameworks that support women in balancing professional and personal responsibilities.

• Legacy and Hope: Reshma emphasizes the significance of creating a lasting impact that benefits future generations, even if the full realization of these goals extends beyond her lifetime.

Notable Quotes

• Reshma Saujani at [07:38]: “No time to get down, 'Cause I'm moving up.”

• Reshma Saujani at [12:05]: “I realized, like, I'm not broken. This sucks. But I'm not broken.”

• Reshma Saujani at [22:23]: “Just go for advice, because otherwise, people aren't immediately feeling pressurized.”

• Reshma Saujani at [28:59]: “I can't do this anymore. I need to take over. I need you to run this organization.”

• Reshma Saujani at [38:06]: “We have to give people grace and flexibility and give women ownership over their time.”

• Reshma Saujani at [42:16]: “I might die with women having less rights than they had when I was born. That we may not see a female president in my lifetime.”

Conclusion

This inaugural episode of Confessions of a Female Founder sets a powerful tone by delving into the authentic and often challenging experiences of women striving to make a difference. Reshma Saujani’s story is a testament to resilience, the pursuit of meaningful change, and the ongoing fight for gender equality. Listeners are left inspired by her unwavering commitment to empowering women and understanding the importance of self-care in leadership.

Additional Information

After the main conversation, Gretchen and Elizabeth continue with brief product promotions and tease upcoming episodes featuring other female entrepreneurs. However, the core content remains focused on Reshma Saujani's insightful and heartfelt dialogue with Megan Markle, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of entrepreneurship, activism, and personal growth.

Transcript

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[Elizabeth]

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[Reshma Saujani]

Lemonade.

[Elizabeth]

Hey everyone, it's Gretchen and Elizabeth. We're so delighted to share something we think you'll find both insightful and inspiring. Confessions of a Female Founder A new podcast from Megan, the Duchess of Sussex from Lemonada Media.

[Gretchen Rubin]

As Megan sets out to build a business of her own, she's getting advice and insights from a handful of amazing women who have scaled small ideas into successful companies. These fly on the wall conversations will no doubt inspire anyone who's interested in turning their own entrepreneurial dreams into a reality, and anyone else who just wants to hear what really happens behind the scenes.

[Elizabeth]

In this episode, Megan talks with Reshma Sojani, a tenacious founder who you may remember from our recent Friendship Roundtable. Reshma created not one, but two remarkable non profits that aim to close the gender gap for women, Girls who Code and Moms First. Megan and Reshma first connected years ago when Girls who Code was expanding into the uk. In this episode, they reunite to talk about redesigning workplaces for women and how to make the hard choice to put your health and and yourself before your work. We hope you'll give it a listen. To hear more episodes follow Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan or hit the link in the show notes.

[Reshma Saujani]

I'm sitting there the next day. I've pissed off everybody. I'm broke and no one's calling me. Oh no, no one's calling me.

[Megan Markle]

I'm Megan. And this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the slee sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today.

[Reshma Saujani]

No time to get down Cause I'm moving up no time to get down? Cause I'm moving up no time to get down? Cause I'm moving up.

[Megan Markle]

Behind the scenes, there are so many struggles that female founders don't post about. They don't even talk about the moments when you feel broken, when things don't go as planned, when simply showing up feels like a huge feat. And yet we do it. We push through. We keep smiling, we keep going out there. You get on the panel, you do the thing. And at a certain point, though, it does raise the question, how do we redefine what it means to be a female founder without just running ourselves into the ground?

[Reshma Saujani]

And if that happens, we're gonna lose a generation of social entrepreneurs that we desperately need to continue these fights. And so we gotta show em a different way. We gotta do it a different way.

[Megan Markle]

Today's episode is about fighting for what you believe in and all the highs and the lows that come with it. And that's precisely why I wanted to talk to Reshma Saujani. She founded not one, but two incredible nonprofits that help close the gender gap for women. First with Girls who Code and now with Moms first. She's lived the pressures of building a business both behind the scenes and in the spotlight. And her candid take on leading a movement, it's going to make you rethink how to fight for what you believe in. Let's get into it. Welcome.

[Reshma Saujani]

Thank you.

[Megan Markle]

I'm so happy you're here. It's been a while.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's been a long time. I saw you. Do you remember different circumstances. Long time ago.

[Megan Markle]

Yes. Life was diff. Well, I mean, we had met 2018.

[Reshma Saujani]

I guess you were very pregnant.

[Megan Markle]

Oh my gosh. Yes. It would have been 2018. Pregnant with Archie at Kensington Palace.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes.

[Megan Markle]

How did you end up at that meeting with me?

[Reshma Saujani]

Because you're an amazing human. Oh my God, it's true. And we were bringing girls who code to England, and we were looking to expand, and you generously met with me.

[Megan Markle]

Oh, that's kind to say generous. I was thrilled to learn more at the time, I would say, even the idea of coding and stem, do you remember that's when things were transitioning from STEM to steam?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yep, yep.

[Megan Markle]

It was so new, and it was definitely new for me. But I remember you came in, we sat in the audience room, and I just said, tell me all about it. But. But it was such a great sit down because it was an eye opener for me of so many other ways in which women were showing up for young girls. And I'm curious to get into how that became your focal point. But can we just start. Well, before that, can we go way, way back? Take us back to the beginning.

[Reshma Saujani]

So, you know, for me, my. My parents came here as refugees. My mother was actually several months pregnant with my sister when they came. They had no money, and the Catholic church took them in, fed them, sheltered them, clothed them. So I've always had this, like, deep, like, love for this country and for that spirit right, of empathy that we shelter and that we love and then we care for those who have been displaced. So that was always in my blood that I wanted to give back to the country. I wanted to do public service, and I wanted to, you know, fight for those who didn't have a voice, which.

[Megan Markle]

Is beautiful and also completely confounding when you know more about your upbringing, how you were bullied, how you were mistreated, how you were beaten up. For a lot of people, that would devolve into, no, no, I'm not showing up in the spirit of love anymore. I've been too bruised and beaten. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because you grew up in Chicago and what was it like?

[Reshma Saujani]

You know, no one's ever asked me that before, because you're right. I could have turned to anger and hate, given what I was going through. And I went the opposite way. You know, my parents came here in the 70s, grew up in, like, a working class town, you know, outside of Chicago, Illinois. There were no brown people. And, you know, my mom was still wearing her sari and her bindi on her head, going to the Kmart, right. Still eating Indian food. And, you know, back then, it was all about assimilation. You know, my father went to Toastmasters to get rid of his accent. Like, he literally changed his name from Mukun to Mike. He still signs my birthday cards like, love Mike. But Back then, it was like if you wanted to fit in, you had to just change. Like, you know what I mean? And that's kind of how we felt too, right? I remember being so mad, Megan, that, like, my mom named me Reshma. I'm like, why didn't you just name me Rita or Rachel? Because everyone would be like, how do I say it right? And, you know, we'd have a lot of money, so we were wearing the Kmart shoes and the wrong jeans and, like, the wrong shirt. And remember, it was all like, you know, forensic sweatshirts and like feathers and like, you know, the 90s, like, oh.

[Megan Markle]

The sparkly BB shirt that said BB in sequins across the front. I saved up for that.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes, totally. And we had none of the. We had like the knockoff version, you know what I mean? Of all of that. But so I really tried to be white. Like, I tried to be those other girls and deny my culture and all of it. And, you know, every day I would get made fun of and bullied. And one day, I don't know, there was nothing special about that day, Megan. I just. When challenged to go to the. To the back of the school, you know, for a fight, I was. I was like, okay. Instead of just getting on the bus.

[Megan Markle]

Wow.

[Reshma Saujani]

And that day changed my life, right, Because I got beat up pretty bad. But I also realized I'm not white and I'm never gonna be. And I have a responsibility to actually teach people about difference. Like, literally. I went to freshman year of high school and started a club called prism, like the Prejudice Reduction, Interested Students Movement. Horrible name. I got better at that.

[Megan Markle]

It's quite the acronym, it really, but it's definitely high impact for a 12 or 13 year old girl to come up with that. It says a lot.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, I guess it does. So, yeah, I think I turned to hope. I turned to hope.

[Megan Markle]

I mean, honestly, it just says so much about your character to look yourself in the mirror and really see who you are. But even from that moment, you're still at a crossroads where you could have chosen, you know what? I am going to be an entrepreneur and I'm going to build a business and I'm going to be so successful and. But instead, your activist spirit is what came through. Always wanting to affect change.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. I realized early on what my gift was. So I started going to Model UN and debate, and I realized, ooh, I can give speech. Like, I can communicate and I actually feel at home on stage. And I'm thinking the way to make a difference is to Run for office. I'm in love with Dr. King, Mahatma Gandhi, John F. Kennedy. Like, back then I thought, politics, politics. And you can, you know, how to communicate. Like, that's where you go. And so I, you know, volunteer on my first campaign, the 92 Clinton campaign, fell in love with politics and Washington and Hillary Clinton and the whole thing. And I'm looking at all these people like a Hillary. Like, you know, and they all got a degree from Harvard, and they're all lawyers. And so maybe that's my path, right? I'm going to Yale Law School. That's where I'm going. I applied three times. Don't get in. You know what I mean? Finally get in.

[Megan Markle]

But not just finally get in. Didn't you make a plea to the dean? Didn't you just really go in? What did you say?

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, so I had this mentor, Leon Higginbotham Jr. He was, like, the first federal black jurist on the Third Circuit Court. And he becomes my mentor every Sunday. I am at him and Evelyn's house listening to, like, the heroes of the civil rights movement. And it is just. I love Leon. And Leon's like, oh, girl, you're getting in. Like, when you go to Yale Law School, when you walk in, there's my photo. Like, I got you. And he dies, and he doesn't write my recommendation letter.

[Megan Markle]

Oh, I didn't. Okay.

[Reshma Saujani]

Before he dies.

[Megan Markle]

Okay.

[Reshma Saujani]

So I'm devastated, and I don't have a recommendation letter. And it's like, it's his funeral. Everybody is there. And at the funeral, I meet the assistant of the dean of Yale Law School, and kind of, like, she feels sorry for me. And she was like, I'll get an appointment for you. And she kind of squeezes me in. Dean Crom and schedule. And I go to New Haven and make my pitch. And Dean Cronin's like, listen, I'll make you a deal. Like, you've gotten into all these other schools. Like, I got into Penn and Northwestern. I mean, like, right. Like, really good schools. And he's like, I'll make you a deal. Like, just go at any of those schools, and if you get into the top 10%, I'll let you come to Yale.

[Megan Markle]

Oh, wow.

[Reshma Saujani]

So I go to Georgetown. I don't make one friend. I study every single day. I am just super focused, right? Like, getting straight A's so I can go to Yale. But it was such a lesson, Megan. In, like, I was just so narrowly focused that I had to have that Yale Law degree so I could go do the things that I wanted to do. Not understanding that. I was just letting life and its experiences just pass me by. What happens then is that Bush v. Gore happens. And I'm thinking, I'm going into public interest, right? I'm going to go work at the NLA cp, right? Like civil rights. That's what I want to do. Bush wins. No one's going to D.C. you know, and I'm like, oh, and I'm $300,000 in student loan debt. I guess I'm going to go work for the man in New York at a law firm, which I hate. And that's when I run for office. Take this crazy chance, right? In running in a primary. I was 33 years old. My name was Rashma Sajani. There had never been a South Asian woman to ever run before. I run for United States Congress, I lose, like, spectacularly. I mean, it's like, not even close. But I had, like, convinced John Legend to do like, two concerts for me. Like Jack Dorsey, like, I had, like, I had, like, hustled the whole world right into thinking that, like, I'm winning this upstart race, right? And it is not even close. Like, I am crushed. And the biggest kind of aha for me was I'm sitting there the next day. I'm in my, like 400 square foot lower east side apartment. I have off everybody in the Democratic establishment. Cause I didn't wake my turn. I ran against another Democrat. I'm broke because I spent a year running for office instead of working. And no one's calling me. Oh, no, no one's calling me. But the biggest kind of, I think, moment that changes my life is I realized, like, oh, my God, like, this was the thing that I thought that I was supposed to do. Run for office, be a politician, be a public servant. The very thing that I had been driving towards, Yale, all of that was about this destination. It doesn't happen for me. But when I wake up the next morning, I'm like, oh, like, I'm not broken. Yeah, this sucks. But, like, I'm not broken, huh? I think we think as women that when we try something, especially something we want so bad and it doesn't work out, that it will break us and we won't be able to, like, wake up the next day. We won't be able to continue on, forget about, like, the humiliation and the judgment and all that. I think there's a sense that, like, failure will cripple you, right?

[Megan Markle]

That it will break you as opposed to break you open for the possibility of more.

[Reshma Saujani]

Exactly. And so now the thing doesn't happen and I'm like, huh? There's a lot of things that I should maybe fail at and try and learn. And that's the path.

[Megan Markle]

Yeah. And when it breaks open, it leaves space and room for so much more. Love, growth, resilience to all pour in.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Megan Markle]

Why stem? What made you realize how big of a deal it was?

[Reshma Saujani]

I mean, I always say like if I had applied to be the CEO of Girls who Code, I Wouldn't have gotten the job. I didn't code. I'd never coded before. Yeah, right. Like, I majored in poly science, speech communications. And the only thing I'd ever built was a failed campaign.

[Megan Markle]

And you don't really think of CO as the person who's on the stage giving the speeches. You think of it as the person who's behind the keyboard and.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And, you know, those coding jobs, they paid a lot, like, $120,000 a year. And when I saw that girls and girls of color, poor girls, were not going into these fields, in my mind, like, they weren't going into the fields that would help them, like, march up into the middle class and change their entire trajectory for them and their families. And that's what, like, drove me to coding and technology.

[Megan Markle]

Well, and the creation for access in such a different way. Right. For that next step that they may have otherwise not even had a window to peer in through to know that that was a room that was worth going into. Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

And you're working on this now also, like, the things that they're gonna create, like bullying, Right. Like, what are they doing on these problems that they experience? Right. Whether it's bullying, whether it's health, whether it's sexual harassment. Right. Like, they're. If they know how to code, they can build tools that are gonna. Problems that are faced by women and girls completely.

[Megan Markle]

And now as we look at all the different modalities, AI and everything else, to really get ahead of how they can be integral in the creation of those next phases of tech. So. But what was the big break with girls who code? When did people start paying attention and you went, oh, I'm actually onto something here.

[Reshma Saujani]

So. Okay. I thought nonprofits are slow. They don't get anything done. Like, nothing happens. Like, it's just. It's not for me, Right. Like, I want to be where the action is. I want to be where the real change is. So I ran Girls who Coded now Mom's first, like, a tech company.

[Megan Markle]

Oh, interesting.

[Reshma Saujani]

Big scale, big numbers, hard driving, big change. KPI's destination where we want to go with, like, essentially like a nonprofit lens. So it was always kind of like unicorns and rainbows. I'll be honest. Right? Like, sometimes you have an idea and the world just collides to make that happen. And so Girls who Code was a little like that right from the beginning. People like, oh, yeah, this needs to exist.

[Megan Markle]

But we all also know that fundraising for nonprofits can be really hard. I mean, maybe not as hard with unicorns and rainbows there. But it can be hard.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Megan Markle]

What do you think? One tip is for people who are starting specifically a nonprofit, how do you get funders?

[Reshma Saujani]

So here's the thing. I very early on at Girls who Code got Jack Dorsey to support it. And back then, everybody was like, oh, Jack's doing it great. And I'll say with moms first, it was you, like, very early on, you were like, oh, paid Leave this movement, Moms. Yes. And I think the thing is, for people and entrepreneurs, it does help to get an early adopter, especially one that people admire. Right. And that people want to follow and see as, like, a guidepost. And so, yeah, for Girls who Code, it was really Jack. And, you know, for moms first, it was. It was you and Melinda.

[Megan Markle]

Oh, wow, that's. I didn't realize that. That's. So I'm. I'm glad that I could be additive in any way. I think one of the pieces of advice I was given early on, maybe not even advice, but insight, was when you're looking at funding for a nonprofit or even in business building, but specifically in the nonprofit sector, yes, you want to get one hook because it makes other people feel confident coming in. But in those conversations, if you go to someone and you ask for money, they're likely gonna give you advice. And if you go to someone and you ask for advice, they're much more likely to give you money.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's a good tip. All right, I'm taking that one to the bank.

[Megan Markle]

Just go for advice, because otherwise, people aren't immediately feeling pressurized. You're just going for advice, and then if it makes sense for them, they'll offer up what they think you might need as opposed to going in with an ask. So different. Small distinction, but it makes a big difference, I think.

[Reshma Saujani]

I really like that.

[Megan Markle]

Yeah. You have this quote that I love that was, leaders can not or should not stay in organizations forever.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes.

[Megan Markle]

You can't stay innovative if you have the same person leading the movement forever. Such an interesting insight, because a lot of people, I think, in that same pursuit of success as we're talking about, especially as female founders, stepping away could feel like failure, as opposed to the choice, the active choice you make to say, no, I'm not just doing this for myself. I'm doing this for this organization.

[Reshma Saujani]

So, you know, I knew it was time to step away from Girls who Code. One, because I actually don't think anyone should run anything for more than eight years. And then two, this energy I was feeling around motherhood and Moms first. And this need to fight for childcare and paid leave. Like, there was something I knew that I wanted to do. So I had this amazing CEO who's now our CEO, Dr. Tarika Barrett. And I'd always wanted her to run the organization. And so it's like, middle of COVID I know it's time. And one, I know if I tell anybody that I wanna step down, including my husband, he's gonna talk me out of it. So I don't tell anybody. I get on a train, I like, basically say, tariq, I need to meet with you. And I'm like, I'm ready, and I think you're ready. And she said, all right, let's go. So one, I think it was so important for me to pick a successor, especially a woman of color, and give her the opportunity of, like, the fruits of my labor, right? Because building Girls who Code almost killed me, Megan. You know, I was always on a plane. I was always just hustling. But I had built something that I knew was sustainable because I had rebuilt it during the pandemic, I had money in the bank, right? So, like, oftentimes, if you're a new CEO taking over an organization, you're terrified. Like, fundraising is hard. So I knew I could give her something that, like, had legs. But it was such an interesting lesson because the day we were transitioning, my assistant said to me, okay, I'm going to get you a conference room, and you're going to get so many emails, so many people are going to call you that we just. We got to black out three hours. So we. Tarek and I send the email. She's in one room. I'm in one room. Press send. Crickets.

[Megan Markle]

Oh, no, crickets.

[Reshma Saujani]

Tarika calls me a couple hours later. She's like, oh, my God. Like, it's been so amazing, the amount of emails and the phone calls. And she's like. She's like, how's it been for you? And I didn't want to tell her, right, that no one had called me. But it was such an important lesson on, like, this is why people don't give up power. Because when you don't have power, you're not important anymore, right? So it's so easy to hold onto it because your identity is so caught up in it. But that, to me, was part of the work, right? From an ego perspective, being able to let it go, give somebody else that light, knowing that, like, it was going to actually diminish my power, right? My resources, my access. But that was the Point.

[Megan Markle]

Hmm. I mean, that is. That is a lot of. I'm not gonna say work. I'm talking about self work. That is a lot of growth. That takes people a tremendous amount of time to settle into the confidence, to be able to do that. And to not feel rattled when the phone's not ringing, to not feel rattled when you've stepped out of the light, so to speak. But as you step out of the light, you're actually stepping into your own light in a different way and creating space for someone else to be in the light, which is probably the larger. All of us being here.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's so beautiful. So true.

[Megan Markle]

And I'll bring this up if you're comfortable talking about it. Cause I know you've spoken publicly about, as you were doing, girls who code, all the interpersonal things that are happening for you at that time and the miscarriages that you've experienced. I've spoken about the miscarriage that we experienced. And I think in some parallel way, when you have to learn to detach from the thing that you have so much promise and hope for, and to be able to be okay at a certain point, to let something go, something go that you plan to love for a long time, that's. Does that.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's really insight. Yeah. I was gonna say. I feel like you're, like, reading my diaries. Like, that's really insight. It's really insightful. Because I don't think anyone's seen it that way. Like, said it that way for me. But that's right, because, you know, here I was for so many years, like, trying to get pregnant, having miscarriages, because I had autoimmune issues. And I got into this really, like, kind of scary habit where I would be at a doctor's office, and they'd be like, you have no heartbeat. And I should have just gone home and gone to sleep and curled up with my husband. But I would just take a breath, and I would just show up in a living room, in a stage, and just perform. And oftentimes I was, like, performing in front of these children that I desperately wanted. And I just got really good at that. But it was eating me up inside. And it wasn't until my second where I was again on this path of serial miscarriages. And I remember just one day, it was like, I was in California. I had to get on a plane and go to Utah to speak to, like, I don't know, like, a thousand girls and, like, the governor. And like, that morning, I get a call from the doctor and they're like, okay, your HCG levels are not going up. You're gonna miscarry. And I just got on a plane, and I was just sitting there in front of these girls, and my heart was just breaking. And I remember saying, this is it. I'm not doing it again. And I went to my team and I said, guys. And I'd never told them I was going through this. I mean, they kind of knew because they would see these doctor's appointments on my schedule. But I never, like, just said, I need. And I said, I can't do this anymore. I need you to take over. I need you to run this organization. I need a month. I need a couple months just to just breathe.

[Megan Markle]

That takes so much courage to say it.

[Reshma Saujani]

It did. It did. But it's right. It's because I had to detach because I felt like I was letting the girls down. I mean, how ironic is that, right? In my quest to become a mother, that just. All I want. You have this beautiful line that I quote all the time, that the most important title I have is Mom. And I so desperately wanted that title.

[Megan Markle]

Oh, you know, I do.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I just. It was the irony of it all, you know, was a lot.

[Megan Markle]

Yes. But that in. In the journey, how many layers come up and then you can start to recognize those patterns in your business, in your life, in. You know, I was. What is that book? I actually think I have it here. My friend just sent me this passage yesterday. It's called the Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse. It's a children's book that came out of the UK a couple years ago. But at any rate, beautiful illustrations. I have to get it for you. But the quote is, what is the bravest thing you've ever said? Asked the boy. Help, said the horse. And at a certain point you go, the courage that it takes for a female founder, the courage that it takes for a woman. When you're on this path, you're on this grind, you've set expectations. The courage that it takes to say, I need help or I need to pause is tremendous. And there is no way to continue to show up and role model for these young women. All the things that you aspire for them to have, that you wanted to have when you were a young girl, if you are not doing it with complete authenticity because you are so close to being burned out.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, yeah. And it's funny, I don't know how to learn this lesson. I'm going to be honest. Like, a couple weeks ago, I had a breast exam, and they thought they saw something. And then I had to get a biopsy, and I had never gotten a biopsy before, so I didn't know what to expect. But they're like, you know what? It's just a pinch. You'll be fine. And I had a panel that night, and I know now from DNCs and C sections and, like, IUDs that it's not a pinch. I keep my schedule right. I keep it all. I tell my husband's, like, let me come with you. I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm good. I got it. I'm fine.

[Unknown]

No.

[Reshma Saujani]

And it hurt like hell, right? My whole.

[Megan Markle]

Right?

[Reshma Saujani]

And I go and I do the panel, and I'm sitting there, and I'm like, what is wrong with you? Like, you know better than this. What is wrong with you? And I think it's so hard to unlearn what this is really about. Cause I think, one, it's personal. But two, like, this sense of, like, I'm strong, I'm resilient, I can take it. I got it right? Because all these things have served me. It's why I've been able to do the things that I do. And then I think we live in the society that encourages women to do that, and the sense that, like, we don't break and we're not allowed to break.

[Megan Markle]

Not allowed to break. You have to keep smiling. All of these constructs that I think we've all been prey to and have projected. And at a certain point, I mean, I often find too, even in the advocacy work or showing up and wanting to. That you go, am I saying the thing, but I'm not doing the thing.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Megan Markle]

And when can we start taking our own advice? What do you think that pivot point will be? When will the inflection point happen where women, especially the ones who are leading in these movements and leading in this messaging, to actually integrate that advice and not just know it or intellectualize it, to integrate it for you to say, yeah, you know, honey, I am gonna clear the rest of my schedule after this appointment, and please, can you drive me and come with me?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I'm seeing, you know, a lot of the women. I just went to Cecile Richards funeral. So you're seeing a lot of these women who've given themselves to the movement, who've had real health scares and challenges, and you know that they're not connected, Right? Meaning, like, we expect the people that are trying to fight for women and girls to always be on to always be working. We also know at the same time that there's no finish line.

[Megan Markle]

Yeah. And that the body holds the score.

[Reshma Saujani]

Exactly, exactly. And especially for women of color. Right. Who are always like, oh, but you should go fight and you should go fight and you should go save us that we can't continue to operate that way. And so I think we have to. Just because one of the things I'm seeing, I don't have as many young girls or young women reaching out to me on LinkedIn, being like, Ms. Sejani, I also wanna start a nonprofit. How do I do that? I think that they're looking at us and seeing how exhausted we are, how tired we are, how much you have to sacrifice and saying, yeah, no thank you.

[Megan Markle]

Oh, wow.

[Reshma Saujani]

And if that happens, we're gonna lose a generation of social entrepreneurs that we desperately need to continue these fights.

[Megan Markle]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

And so we gotta show em a different way. We gotta do it a different way.

[Elizabeth]

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[Elizabeth]

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[Megan Markle]

So you mentioned before the break that a lot of these young female entrepreneurs that have that desire to build something are looking at their mentors and saying no thank you based on the burnout they're seeing. And so I guess the question is, how do we turn that around? How do we show that perfect doesn't exist? And maybe that's part of the messaging, but also what does it look like now when you can find balance and.

[Reshma Saujani]

It'S not one or the other? You know, one of the things I'm seeing in the motherhood movement is people think you have to pick being a girl boss or a trad wife, that it's black or white, right? That either you're in the workforce and you can't focus on your kids and you don't get to see them, or you're just at home. And I think the point is, is that we're, we're just presenting these like polar opposite choices when really what we all want is something in the middle. I wanna be able to pick my kids up, you know, at school every so often, give em a little hug and a kiss, have some flexibility, not be on the plane all the time. But I wanna be able to crush it in the things that I care about.

[Megan Markle]

Yes. Now you have the title of mom. Just like me favorite title.

[Reshma Saujani]

Love it.

[Megan Markle]

I love being a mom. Oh my gosh, I love being a mom so much. It's my favorite thing. It is the thing where you're like, oh my gosh, I just need a break. I just need a minute. I just need a minute. And the second that you step in the other room, you go, oh, but where are they? Let me, let me just pop. Let me just, let me scroll through pictures of the endlessly on my phone. And then you just, My husband's like, my love, can you just give yourself a minute? Why don't you go work out? Why don't you go take a bath? I'm like, I know, but I just want to cuddle for. It's the mo. It's the parenting paradigm where it is so full on. And I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I think what's really key about what you said and the pandemic may have been the thing that shifted this when working from home and parenting from home, where they are Completely converged can feel incredibly overwhelming. How do you feel about that?

[Reshma Saujani]

I feel like the way that we've built workplaces, we've set women up to fail, period. You know, and the thing I always think about, Megan, is like, look, we have the most educated workforce of women. Like 75% of the high school valedictorians are girls, right? Most of those getting their PhDs are girls. And we have to ask ourselves, why do we have the most educated population of women that have the lowest amount of participation in the labor force? And the reason is, is because when we become moms, because of the cost of childcare, because of the lack of availability of childcare, because we just don't make it possible for you to do both, oftentimes women are having to downshift or make choices. And the way we've tried to solve this problem is say, well, the problem is women, right? Like, like, you gotta get more confidence. You gotta power pose, you know, your way before a meeting. You gotta get a mentor, right? It's all about, you're wrong, you're broken. When really it's just structural. And what was so amazing about this in the pandemic is I think it gave us a window of what's possible. So like, if you do have flexibility, if you can take care of your kid when they're sick and still get it on a meeting, right? If you still can not be set up to fail because the school day is 8:30 and the work day's 9 to 5, right? We can actually give people grace and flexibility and give women ownership over their time. You will actually see a shift.

[Megan Markle]

And also with that comes the woman who is juggling it all and doing it all from home, being confident enough to tell the truth about what's going on. Because you can't give grace to someone in the same way if you just have no sense of it. You don't know if they, my kids, for example, right now, one has rsv, the other has influenza A. I hear a little pitter patter of feet upstairs. They're home from school, you know, cough syrup all night and rubbing the back and this. And you go. And we still find a way to show up for both. But being able to be comfortable enough, and maybe that's to your earlier point, how we teach this generation who might not feel as inspired to do some of the change making that we know has been so fundamental, it's like, no, just be honest in the journey of it and say, yeah, today I'm going to show up for you, but I'm showing up for you in my sweatshirt today because I've been up all night with my babies, but I'm still going to be able to show up for both because both matter. And both are what keep my cup full.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. We breastfed in closets. We didn't put. Right. We didn't put our kids picture on there. We, like, we're like, oh, my God, I'm sorry. I. You know, we completely, like I always say, like, you know, girls who coat, mostly women work for me. They get pregnant all the time and we kill it.

[Megan Markle]

Right.

[Reshma Saujani]

Like, I have built, like, two of the most fastest growing nonprofits, and we live our values. And so this sense of that, well, you know, it's. You're not gonna be productive or you're like, you know, watching Netflix while you're work. Like, it's just not true. And so we just have to. But there's so much resistant to change.

[Megan Markle]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I do think that part of that is about having women ask for what they need and our male allies. You know, one of the things that you've seen really shift in this remote work conversation is a lot of men are saying, okay, great, you want me to come back to work. Dads are saying, you need to support me in my childcare. You need to change your paid leave policies. Right. You need to allow me to be a parent and just thrive. But I think that is just absolutely right. Is like, how do we ask and demand what we need? I mean, you see it even in promotions. Men will not. If they leave the workforce, they will go back, and they will not compromise on their salary. Whereas women, like, all right, you want to pay me 20% less? Okay, fine. Thank you.

[Megan Markle]

Right? It's true. It's true. And that's the shift that has to come. And I think, look, as you continue to grow out, I don't know what your next chapter looks like for you, especially when you say eight years and then maybe time for a change. Now, you've already forecasted that in some way because we know you have proof points of how that works.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Megan Markle]

What do you feel like your next chapter will be?

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, listen, I love exposing cons, and I think one of the things with all of these things that are in common is one. What do you mean girls can't code? Yes, they can. And they can build incredible things. And what do you mean we can't redesign workplaces for women? Yes, we can. We need to pass childcare and paid leave. And, you know, the work I'm doing my podcast right now. My so called midlife was like. Like I was in that inflection point between girls who code and. And moms first. There was no third baby, right? Like I was seeing wrinkles on my face that I hadn't seen before. My body was changing because of perimenopause. And I was just like feeling like my best years are behind me. And I started working with my monk, Razanath, and that's when I started reading the Bhagwat Gita because I realized, like all the things that were holding me back and the things that I were holding onto. And it just opened up such this incredible moment of one rethinking midlife for women. Because I think the view about midlife is so different for women and men and we need to change it because we are living longer than we ever expected. Ever expected. And I don't know if you knew this, but like, you know, the largest gender pay gap is for women above 50. Like, I have so many friends, friends now who are approaching 15 who are like, I can't get that promotion. I can't become a partner at that venture fund. Like, I can't start that business. Like, the way we perceive women, their potential and their opportunity, you know, I call it the midlife penalty for women really changes. And so to me, I think I will continue to do this work, right? I will continue to do this work about women. I have made the realization, though, Megan, we may not win in our lifetimes.

[Megan Markle]

Meaning what?

[Reshma Saujani]

Meaning that I might die with women having less rights than they had when I was born. That we may not see a female president in my lifetime. That your daughters, my nieces, may still be fighting the same fights that we're fighting. And for me, that was a really hard reality to face in midlife because we went through all the things we sacrificed to our health, our family, and we have to say, God, is it worth it? Like, what is the point? What is the point if we keep dismantling progress? And I think I've realized that probably me, you were put on this earth just like those suffragettes, to just keep hope alive, keep fighting, keep pushing. Because, yeah, that's the point. You, like, you lose, you lose, you lose and then you win.

[Megan Markle]

Yes, right?

[Reshma Saujani]

You lose, lose, you lose and then you win.

[Megan Markle]

And sometimes, just when you think you're about to win, oh, man, did that hurt? Cause that feels like quite a loss. But you just keep going. And I think my understanding, especially in having this time to be able to hear your story and talk with you and see the commonality in some of these other equally successful women that I'm speaking with. We're gonna talk about what's behind every successful woman. What's behind every successful. What's behind every successful woman is self awareness. There comes a point where each of these women on their journeys has such a tremendous sense of self awareness and the desire to dig de that is unflappable.

[Reshma Saujani]

I think that's right. And I think you realize, like, I don't care what other people think about me. Like, I'm not. I'm not doing this. I just to me, I want to die knowing that I lived my fullest potential and that I gave back to. Like I can go back to my parents story, like about the people that sheltered them, that took them in, that fed them. Like, I will continue to fight for our children to make sure that they this. That this world is good, that they learn and see goodness. And I think that we have a role to play in that. But I think the lesson is, is that you gotta do it with joy.

[Megan Markle]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

And it can't come at an expense. Right. To your health or to your happiness or to your children.

[Megan Markle]

Yes. And everything has some expense. Right. But when you're looking, what's the roi? What is your return on the investment of everything you're pouring into that. And at the end of the day, what you're doing is creating legacy that will, whether you see in your lifetime or our kids lifetime, it's still steps in the right direction of what legacy is all about. And that I think is one of the most fascinating, probably most powerful things about the journey of creation. As a female founder, you're creating something with lasting impact.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, thank you so much for all your. Seriously, Megan, I. There's so much gratitude and love towards you. I just hope, I hope you know that.

[Megan Markle]

Thank you. And thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it. How far we've come and yet here we are.

[Reshma Saujani]

Are here we are.

[Megan Markle]

Wherever we go. Here we are.

[Reshma Saujani]

I really appreciate it.

[Megan Markle]

All right, take good care.

[Reshma Saujani]

Bye bye.

[Megan Markle]

Next week we are talking to an iconic founder in the beauty industry. She is a hair colorist. She's a stylist too. But my goodness, can this girl do some color? And she has turned her passion into. Into products that people crave.

[Reshma Saujani]

When I said the words, the world does not need another shampoo and conditioner, literally, I could have heard an amen from the crowd, like people were over it.

[Megan Markle]

Can you guess who it is? I'll see you then.

[Unknown]

Confessions of a Female Founder is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by Megan. Our producers are Katherine Barnes and Oha Lopez. Kristen Lepore is our senior Supervising producer. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Megan. Mix and sound design are by Johnny Vincevans. Rachel Neal is our VP of New Content and Production and Steve Nelson is our SVP of Weekly Content and production. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. There's more. Confessions of a Female Founder with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe in Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week.

[Megan Markle]

Great.

[Elizabeth]

From the onward, Project.