More Happier: Do Holidays Leave You Exhausted, Not Restored? Priya Parker, Francis Lam & Kate Bowler on Celebration

Summary

Podcast Summary: "More Happier: Do Holidays Leave You Exhausted, Not Restored? Priya Parker, Francis Lam & Kate Bowler on Celebration"

Podcast: Happier with Gretchen Rubin
Host: Gretchen Rubin (with Elizabeth Craft)
Guests: Priya Parker, Frances Lam, Kate Bowler
Date: November 22, 2025

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Overview of Episode

In this roundtable episode, Gretchen Rubin and her sister Elizabeth Craft dive into the concept of intentional celebration during the holiday season. Joined by celebrated guest experts Priya Parker (gathering & connection specialist), Frances Lam (culinary expert), and Kate Bowler (author and scholar on meaning and suffering), the group explores how to reclaim the holidays from stress and obligation by refocusing on purpose, meaningful ritual, and authentic emotional experience. The conversation covers redefining traditions, the role of food and ritual, making space for grief, dismantling societal pressures, and practical tips for crafting celebrations that genuinely restore and connect.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Purpose of Celebration

• Priya Parker emphasizes that most gatherings feel overwhelming because the purpose isn’t clearly defined. This is especially true with scripted holidays like Thanksgiving or New Year's.
  • Quote: “The biggest mistake we make when we gather is we skip defining the purpose and we think it’s super obvious.” (05:41 — Priya Parker)
• She advises to host a gathering you actually want to attend. “If you're feeling dread, that's data.” (05:49)
• Connection over perfection: Focus on creating genuine human connections, rather than a flawless event.
  • Rubin interjects: “Connection over perfection. Okay, that is a mug I need to own.” (06:24 — Gretchen Rubin)

Example:

Priya recounts a story about a Cirque du Soleil dancer who invited friends to a tree-trimming, asking each to send two photos of their happiest moments from the past year; these became ornaments, sparking rich connection. (06:45)

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2. Food as Ritual & Emotional Connection

• Frances Lam explains that food is more than flavor—it activates remembrance, nostalgia, and repeated actions, turning meals into rituals.
  • “How do we make a meal into a ritual?... The ingredients tend to be remembrance, nostalgia, maybe repeated action.” (14:54 — Frances Lam)
• He cautions against “cooking at people” (performative or show-offish hosting) and instead suggests inviting guests into the preparation process.
  • “Bring them into the experience... A gathering begins at the invitation.” (19:13 — Frances Lam)
• Meal traditions can—and should—evolve, blending old and new, as with his family’s homemade dumpling ritual for Chinese New Year, which arose from intentional effort, not inherited tradition. (16:21 — Frances Lam)

Food Participation Ideas:

• Gretchen describes her holiday dessert party where guests bring desserts inspired by children’s literature, allowing for creative, low-pressure contributions. (19:54)
• Kate Bowler shares her tradition of gigantic, whimsical gingerbread house parties, rooted in her study of megachurches, giving guests room for playful bonding—even among strangers. (21:34 — Kate Bowler)

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3. Making Space for Grief, Loss, and Imperfection

• Kate Bowler addresses the intense societal pressure for positivity and perfection, particularly at holidays. She calls out the idea that “celebrations coincide with the American story of infinite happiness.” (23:13 — Kate Bowler)
• Grief and complicated feelings are real and deserve a place:
  • Quote: “Maybe one of the things that people could name is this holiday, I just want a minute to feel sad that my dad is gone.” (23:54 — Kate Bowler)
• She shares powerful rituals, like a bereaved family burning insensitively worded condolence cards in a cathartic backyard fire, then turning it into a humorous, healing moment. (24:45 — Kate Bowler)
• Simple rituals—like putting notes in a lost loved one’s stocking—can honor grief and hope without overwhelming the gathering. (25:41 — Kate Bowler)

Facilitation Tips:

• Gretchen and Kate discuss the value of setting explicit intentions for moments of silence, remembrance, or including someone’s famous recipe, and communicating these ideas openly.

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4. Societal Pressures & What Needs to Change

At (32:31) Gretchen polls the group: If you could erase any societal pressure around holiday celebrations, what would it be?

• Frances Lam: “That all the food has to be hot.” (33:08 — Frances Lam)
  • He encourages including dishes served at room temperature to reduce stress for hosts.
• Kate Bowler: “Big moments being too big.” (34:19 — Kate Bowler)
  • She underscores embracing smaller, more frequent celebrations—celebrating all types of milestones (e.g., “Congratulations, you started menopause. Drinks!”).
• Priya Parker: “Your gathering doesn’t have to look a certain way.” (35:47 — Priya Parker)
  • Modern needs may require new rituals—divorce parties, fresh starts (e.g., “Freshmoon” for parents dropping off a child at college).
  • Quote: “Gatherings are basically about marking transitions. The best gatherings also transform us.” (36:48 — Priya Parker)

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5. Try This at Home: Practical, Manageable Suggestions (38:30)

Concrete ways to make the holidays brighter and more intentional:

• Priya Parker:
  • Philosophical: “Pause and ask, ‘What is the purpose this year? What is my need?’”
  • Practical: “Bring a tiny tub of face glitter—it’s a little bit of whimsy that shifts people into a vibrant mood.” (39:15)
• Kate Bowler:
  • Ask honestly if your family is a “restaurant family” (i.e., can you all make it through a meal together?) If not, don’t force complicated rituals—pizza is perfectly acceptable. (40:38)
• Frances Lam:
  • Serve an unexpected festive drink, like dry sherry, and remember to invite guests into preparing the meal together. Dishes that can be made collaboratively (like stews or braises) are ideal. (43:26)

Notable Quotes from This Segment

• “Ask yourself, are we a restaurant family?” (42:17 — Gretchen Rubin, reflecting Kate Bowler’s advice)
• “Practice that skill—cooking with people is learned.” (44:09 — Frances Lam)
• “Host a gathering you want to attend.” (46:14 — Priya Parker)

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6. Final Thoughts: Encourage Personalization & Permission

• The group affirms that traditions and gatherings should personalize and adapt. There are no rules—find your “spark,” whether it’s a Thanksgiving pizza, a dumpling night, or a cathartic family moment.
  • Quote: “The best traditions start as someone literally being like, I wish we could just do a Whitney Houston drum contest. And then they do it.” (46:14 — Priya Parker)
  • “The tradition starts now.” (46:28 — Gretchen Rubin on Thanksgiving pizza)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Note | |-----------|---------------|-----------------------------------------------| | 05:41 | Priya Parker | "The biggest mistake we make when we gather is we skip defining the purpose and we think it’s super obvious." | | 06:24 | Gretchen Rubin| "Connection over perfection. Okay, that is a mug I need to own." | | 14:54 | Frances Lam | “How do we make a meal into a ritual?... The ingredients tend to be remembrance, nostalgia, maybe repeated action.” | | 19:13 | Frances Lam | “A gathering begins at the invitation.” | | 23:13 | Kate Bowler | “Such an intense cultural script... that everybody should always be achieving either, if not bliss, some kind of emotional, positive steady state at all times...” | | 24:45 | Kate Bowler | [Story of family burning 'bad' condolence cards in the fire after losing their dad—turning catharsis into a ritual] | | 33:08 | Frances Lam | “That all the food has to be hot.” [on the pressure he’d eliminate] | | 35:47 | Priya Parker | “Your gathering doesn't have to look a certain way.” | | 39:15 | Priya Parker | “Bring a tiny tub of face glitter—it’s a little bit of whimsy that shifts people into a vibrant mood.” | | 40:38 | Kate Bowler | “Are we a restaurant family? …Maybe a buffet. Maybe… pizza.” | | 46:14 | Priya Parker | “Host a gathering you want to attend.” | | 46:28 | Gretchen Rubin| “The tradition starts now.” [Thanksgiving pizza] |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:32 — Roundtable begins: Introductions and topic
• 05:41 — Priya Parker defines purpose in gathering
• 08:30 — Tree-trimming happiness ritual example
• 14:54 — Frances Lam on food as ritual and emotional connector
• 19:54 — Crowd-sourced dessert party; participatory hosting ideas
• 21:34 — Giant gingerbread house parties (Kate Bowler)
• 23:13 — Making space for grief and imperfection at holidays
• 33:08 — Pressures to eliminate: Hot food; bigness; conformity
• 38:30 — “Try this at home” segment: Manageable holiday hacks
• 46:14 — Final encouragement: Make your own tradition

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Tone and Takeaways

The tone is warm, candid, and full of gentle humor. All the hosts and guests offer both practical advice and “permission” to let go—to create celebrations that are less about obligation and more about real needs, connection, resilience, and authenticity. Listeners are encouraged to rethink traditions, involve guests meaningfully, and to celebrate or grieve in ways that fit their lives now, rather than what they “should” do.

Big message:
Host the gathering you want to attend, and give yourself permission to make the tradition that fits you, your people, and your needs this year—however quirky, simple, or unconventional it may be.

Transcript

[Elizabeth]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

For instance, have you heard of the Primrose Friends? In every Primrose School classroom, teachers use these 12 lovable puppets to make character development joyful, meaningful and memorable. From exploring generosity with Benjamin the Bear to practicing honesty with Peanut the Pony, every friend plays a special part in helping children learn important values while having plenty of fun along the way. We can all use some friends like that. You can learn [e-mail] now enrolling infants through children age 5. That's primroseschools.com for more information. Elizabeth, you know I love this time of year, but one thing I do not love is how short the days are. I feel like I'm always trying to cram so many things into a limited number of daylight hours, but one thing that's helping me really stay on top of my routine during this busy time is the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq, the Peloton Cross Training Tread plus is Peloton's most elevated equipment yet. With features that help you plan, stay motivated and achieve peak performance, you can let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go while Peloton handles the rest.

[Elizabeth]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

Hello, we're here for more Happier A Podcast Where We Get Happier Today's episode is the next in our Roundtable Conversation series and the topic is Intentional Celebration. How we can design our celebrations to reflect our values and deepen our connections instead of just feeling overwhelmed by tasks and to do lists and obligations. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness and human nature. I'm host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast and the new podcast since youe Asked. I've also written books like the Happiness Project and Happier at Home, which are very relevant to our discussion today. And I am so excited to be talking today with three terrific guests. First, Priya Parker. Priya is a facilitator, advisor and the acclaimed author of the Art of How We Meet and why It Matters. She helps people create more meaningful connections and a deeper sense of belonging through the Art of Gathering digital course and her substack publication Group Life, which I love this, it aims to make group help as normal as self help. Hello Priya.

[Priya Parker]

Hi Gretchen. So great to be here.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And we will also be joined by Frances Lam. Frances is the host of the Splendid Table from American Public Media and vice President and editor in chief of Clarkson Potter at Penguin Random House. It's a leader in cookbook publishing. He is a former New York Times Magazine columnist and Top Chef Masters judge. He's an award winning writer whose work has appeared in Gourmet, Bon Appetit and Food and Wine. He graduated first in his class from the Culinary Institute of America. Well done, Francis. Hello.

[Frances Lam]

I forgot that you got that version of my bio, but hey Gretchen, thank you for having me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I love a first and then I am so excited as always, to be talking to my old friend, Kate Bowler. Kate Bowler is a New York Times bestselling author, the award winning host of the Everything Happens podcast and an associate professor at Duke University. She studies how we make sense of success, suffering and change. And her books include Everything Happens for a Reason, no Cure for Being Human, her most recent, which is have a Beautiful Terrible Day. And her new book will hit the shelves in just a few months. Joyful. Anyway, so hello Kate.

[Kate Bowler]

Hello my friend. I'm so glad to be here.

[Gretchen Rubin]

This is so fun. Thank you all. I feel like this is an intentional celebration. It's so fun.

[Kate Bowler]

Absolutely.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So today we're talking about intentional celebration because it does feel like every year it's all too easy to get swept up in a cycle of holidays that can feel more like a relentless, endless to do list than a source of joy and connection. So let's talk about how to reclaim this time so we can embrace the holidays as opportunities for connection and meaning and just to jump right in. Priya, I want to open with you. You write about defining the purpose of of a gathering and for holidays like Thanksgiving or New Year's, there's sort of a pre written script. How would you suggest that we can identify and articulate more personal purposes for these events? How can we redefine them for ourselves?

[Priya Parker]

You know the biggest mistake we make when we gather Is we skip defining the purpose and we think it's super obvious.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh.

[Priya Parker]

And that is particularly true for gatherings that come with these heavily baked stories, scripts like Thanksgiving or New Year's. And so the first thing to just pause and ask, which is what is. First of all, what is a gathering I would want to attend? Host a gathering you actually want to attend. If you are feeling dread, that's data, right? So start by hosting a gathering you actually want to attend. And the second is people prefer connection over perfection when you are able to actually. I know.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Connection over perfection. Okay, that is a mug I need to own.

[Priya Parker]

I think we can make that happen. So when people think about stressing out about all of the stuff, when you are able to meaningfully connect people the rest, it lowers the need for everything else to be so perfect. And to start by asking, like, what is it that I am craving? What is it that I would love to have? So I'll give a simple example. There's a Cirque du Soleil dancer and queer, Michel Lepre. And he, like many people traveling a lot for work, and he really wanted to trim his tree, like decorate his tree, but he actually really wanted to just get his people together who he hadn't seen in a while. And so he invited them over for a tree trimming. Is that a thing? Tree trimming party to help him dress the tree before Christmas. But the price of entry was he asked them to send two photos over email, two moments of happiness from their year. And when people walked in, he had the photos printed out on a table set out with ornaments and glue and scissors and crafting supplies and that. And so every ornament were his friend's moments of happiness around the tree. Oh, that's amazing. Isn't that amazing? So immediately there was shared context. It's like, oh, I had no idea you sold your house. Or wow, you really, you were in that show this year. And then it went to dinner and they already had the shared context where the whole evening just basically became conversations about moments of happiness from the year.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And then did they take them home?

[Priya Parker]

Well, that's a good question. I think he kept it on his tree. So it continued to be this like, shared created project where all of a sudden they're so delighted that for him, right, it's like, what is a community? That we actually need each other, that we think of one another. But I think what they did take home was a reflection and a memory of a conversation of different people's moments of happiness, look different and have a moment to kind of unpeel and unpack while still literally giving him this need of helping their friend dress the tree.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, that's so original and creative.

[Frances Lam]

That's awesome. As a Cirque du Soleil performer, I thought you were gonna say he, like, dressed up as a tree and then, like, performed all these different moments of happiness. But even that is amazing.

[Priya Parker]

It's really for, like, the rest of us, you know, the other 99%.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right, right. I can glue stick for sure.

[Priya Parker]

Exactly, exactly. And so, so much of this is like, okay, what is my. He didn't start by saying, like, I should have my tree trimmed to have anyone over. I don't know if you've seen these photos or these videos on Instagram of baby showers where people are coming over and helping the mother to be clean her home.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, no.

[Priya Parker]

And like, all of them are, like, sponging the walls and listening to music together and really feel rather than being used of use.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Priya Parker]

It's like, what does it actually mean to help one another? What does it mean to lean into what your life actually. And this is so much, Kate, of your work.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. I was just thinking.

[Priya Parker]

But this is a simple example of just like, what do I need? And it's not to make your friends. You still want a host.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Priya Parker]

But it was just the right amount of weight as a host to be like, okay, this is really cool. And also, now I know what to talk about with every. All these other people. They didn't all know each other, so it gave them a way in.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right. Oh, that's beautiful. And I love that you can really approach it creatively. You're not locked into these. These scripts that we're familiar can really think about imagining it anew and making it work for you and making it more interesting and exciting for other people, too. Well, coming up, we are going to talk about food because you cannot talk about celebration without talking about food and the emotional connections that we feel to food. But first, this break.

[Elizabeth]

Gretchen. Adam has a new hobby, which is grilling steaks. And it's so wonderful that we can get steaks from Omaha Steaks, which are so delicious. And we can host around the holidays with this delicious food that we're actually making. It's very satisfying. Even better, Omaha Steaks right now is having their sizzle all the way sale where you can get 50% off sitewide.

[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth]

My favorite things that I have and one of my favorite things to give is an aura frame. It's a digital frame. It looks so good. The pictures look like actual prints. Plus it is so easy to set up. You know I am not tech savvy but you can set this up in about two minutes. You can email photos to the person who has it. You can email photos to yourself. You can always change it up and keep it fun. Plus there's ways to interact with it. Like you can put emojis on a picture that you like and your family or friend, whoever you've given it to will see it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And it's nice. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off or as best selling Carver Matte frames named number one by Wirecut by using promo code Happier at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code Happier this exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now before it ends. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[Elizabeth]

The holidays are such a joyful time, but let's be honest, they can also be a lot. There's so much to cook, so much to clean, and unfortunately so much food waste.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You know, we're always thinking about the small things we can do that make an impact not just for our own happiness, but for the planet too. And that's why I'm such a big fan of my mill Food recycler Mill is odorless and fully automated, eliminating all the pain points associated with old fashioned compost pails and smelly garbage cans. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can be hectic in my home around the holidays, but mill keeps me keeping my cool when I'm hosting. With all the food prep and guests arriving, I never have to stress about the trash. Plus it looks super cool and modern in my kitchen.

[Elizabeth]

Add mill to your wish list or gift one now get up to $200 off during their biggest sale of the season Thursday November 20th through Monday, December 1st. Miss the sale, you can still get $75 off with code happy. Visit mill.com happy. That's mill.com ha. Py. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Gretchen, way back when I started my other podcast, Happier in Hollywood, you told me, elizabeth, start a website. And did I listen to you? Not for a long time. I do not want our listeners to do what I did. Start a website immediately when you have a business or something you're interested in, because it's. It will only help you. And Squarespace is truly the perfect place to do that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, Squarespace is the all in one platform to build and grow your online presence. You know, whether you're starting a passion project, you're promoting your comedy, or your podcast, or you're turning a side hustle into a business, Squarespace makes it easy to stand out online. And if you offer services or run events, Squarespace lets you book clients, send invoices, and get paid all in one place. Head to squarespace.com, for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use Offer Code happy to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And now we're back. Frances, let me ask you, you're a culinary expert, and on a practical level, how can we use food to tell a story or express our values in a way that just goes beyond the delicious meal, like, oh, it's a wonderful apple pie or whatever.

[Frances Lam]

Yeah. You know, I think about this a lot because, you know, in my work, I do talk a lot about preparation and technique and seasoning and all those things, all those things that make the physical deliciousness of food, we can call it like, the things that, like, make your taste buds and your olfactory senses go ping, ping, ping. The reality is the emotional connection to food is there are different special ingredients for that. I think those ingredients tend to be remembrance, nostalgia, maybe repeated action. If we think about, oh, how do we make a meal into a ritual? Like, how do we elevate a meal, which you have hopefully every day, hopefully multiple times a day. Right. But how do we elevate that to the idea of ritual? And I think if you think about those ingredients of remembrance, nostalgia, and repeated action, like, that's what can help create ritual.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So remembrance is like, this is my mother's recipe. Nostalgia is like, this is what we ate. I remember putting the marshmallows on the sweet potato when I was little, and now I'm still doing it as an adult.

[Frances Lam]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So can you give some examples of simple food based rituals that help to connect to this sense of meaning.

[Frances Lam]

Yeah, totally. I mean, it could be, you know, something that you've done for generations in a family. Right. And then so. And it's a tradition that gets passed on. So, you know, someone takes on the task of preparing that dish or that menu the same way that we remember, you know, grandpa making this, or we remember great aunt, you know, so and so making this.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So you don't reinvent the cranberry sauce. Well, you can.

[Frances Lam]

I think that's a thing, right? Like, nostalgia is about connecting it to the past, but it doesn't have to be like a facsimile of the past. So I think there are ways of doing things the way we used to do them, but you can also evolve them. I mean, the fact of the matter is, you know, your grandmother's prized pumpkin pie recipe probably came off the back of a box. That recipe probably came from somewhere. Right. It wasn't like passed down from when you discovered fire. Yeah. But I guess I would say too. So for us in our family, meaning just me, my wife and our child, just our little unit, we started folding dumplings for Chinese New Year. And honestly, I grew up in a Chinese American home, but that's not a thing we really did. We didn't fold dumplings ourselves. That wasn't a thing that we did. But we do it in our family now. And part of it is because. So my wife actually is not Chinese, but she wanted to make sure that when we were born, early on, when we were like buying children's books, she's like, hey, I want to make sure that our kid has books that sort of speak to stories of Chinese culture and her family's Portuguese. And, you know, so we wanted to make sure our child had, like, both of those influences in her life. And, you know, in a lot of those stories, they were folding dumplings. So that's something we sort of adopted for ourselves. And when we do that year after year, it becomes a ritual. It becomes a feel like a ritual. That idea of, like repeated action, I think is really important. I also think the act of preparation is so important. And this is kind of what Priya was talking about. I mean, I'm inspired by Priya's work, so I think about her work a lot. But I often think about the difference between cooking for people and cooking at people. So, like, I have to confess, I can be a performative cook. Right. Like, especially earlier on, like after I just come home from culinary school, it was a lot of like, Check this out. Look what I can do. And I think people like today, I think there is a lot of performative cooking. I'm not performative in a way that means it's insincerity, sincere, but meaning you're thinking of it as a performance and you need it to go perfectly and you want to hit all your marks and you want to do all this and you want to get the, you know, da da, da, da, da. And it's amazing when you can achieve that. But that's for you, right? That's really for you. And that's for the recognition of. Oh my God. I went to, you know, so and so's house for dinner one night and it was like a chef was in the kitchen. It was amazing. It was eight course tasting menu. Like, that's amazing. But that's for you. Your guests will love it. Sure. But what are ways to actually bring a guest into that experience that isn't again, cooking at them, but cooking for them? And one way I think of that is you can cook with them. Can you bring them into the preparation? Can you bring them into, I think apriya a lot when I interviewed her on our show a while ago and she said, you know, a gathering begins at the invitation.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Frances Lam]

Because you're helping people to get into a mindset of what this thing is going to be. And there are ways, especially for holiday type celebrations and meals to involve people in the preparation. Whether, hey, come over, come cook this thing with me, or bring this. Because that will be an important part of our evening. Not just like, oh, I don't know, bring, bring something to drink, bring, you know, and that's great too. You don't want people to feel pressure. But if it's like a family gathering or like a repeated gathering, a holiday gathering, people I think, want to feel like they're really contributing. So it isn't an afterthought of like, oh, just bring a dessert, or you know, whatever. You know, you don't want people, but you want people to feel like, no, I'm actually contributing something special and meaningful.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I'm a huge fan of children's literature and young adult literature and I've actually started a couple of reading groups where we read children's literature and young adult literature. This is like a taste that some people have, like detective stories or science fiction. And every year I have a holiday party and I say, if it is fun for you and you, you are invited to bring a dessert with the theme of something children's literature or a young adult literature. So you could bring holes, which is from the book holes. And so if somebody brings donut holes, or they make golden snitches, or somebody made a secret garden cake. And for some people, this is just tremendously fun, and they love having the assignment. And then everybody oohs and ahs and, like, takes some home. But it's only for the people who find that. And yet it really adds to the sense of festivity because other people have contributed, and yet it's a low lift. Like, no pressure on anybody if that's not their thing. Somebody made homemade raspberry cordial inspired by Anna Green Gables, and I'm like, okay, you're not coming to my house for homemade raspberry cordial. But it was a really fun way for people to contribute.

[Priya Parker]

And it also takes the pressure off the host right in that moment. It's like, all of a sudden, everyone's so proud to show their dish, and so all of a sudden, you're distributing the love and the care, and it's actually much less anxiety producing for the host. It's like, the best way to actually lower your anxiety is to have sub hosts. And I love that you say if it's fun for you, because it also. Then people, like. It becomes a little competitive. It's like asking people their birth star, whatever. It's like, oh, this is fun for me, or I would never want to touch that. Which allows also for some frison and comparison, which is great.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Kate Bowler]

I do a version of this with gingerbread houses because I just was always looking for. Well, to be honest, I spent all my twenties studying mega churches. And so I was in some really weird, unusual, enormous buildings. And then I started finding enormous buildings both fascinating and, like, why is there an aquarium in the middle of this sanctuary? And why is there a shark in there?

[Elizabeth]

I was like, you know what would.

[Kate Bowler]

Be great when it comes time to, like, a holiday is just doing something kind of ridiculous. So I started making these enormous gingerbread, like, mega churches at first, and then I'd have parties where people could come over and, like, just decorate your. Like, make your. Like. It was started with, like, make your house of worship. And it was always so random. And I just had enormous candies and. And then, like, a little bit of, like, LEGO scaffolding in case people felt like they couldn't, like, hold up a wall. But I've made some amazing things, and I've seen some amazing things, and also, it gave people something to do with strangers. It's an ice cream in the middle of a yeah, it was really fun.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's so great. But, you know, Kate, let's switch gears for a second. A lot of times with holidays, there's this expectation that this is joyful and good vibes only, but life is more complicated. How do you suggest that people navigate it if they need to make space for grief or loss or imperfection? It's a time when we're expected to be happy. And also, one of the things about holidays is that people's absences or changes, there's kind of a spotlight on that change, and that can make it particularly difficult. What do you suggest that people think about?

[Kate Bowler]

Well, I do think there is such an intense cultural script that celebrations, especially in America, coincides with the American story of infinite happiness, that everybody should always be achieving either, if not bliss, some kind of emotional, positive, steady state at all times, or else they're, you know, a failure in some way. And I think this toxic positivity has a way of infiltrating, like, it usually also connects with a form of perfectionism that's marketed toward women, where everything has to be.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It has to be Instagram worthy, pretty.

[Kate Bowler]

And good and perfect, and everyone's expectations has to be met. And that's difficult because that kind of both perfectionism or positivity doesn't allow for mixed state emotion. So I think it might be a nice time to just sort of allow there to be a little bit more cracks in the seams here and let other kinds of emotions be, frankly, like, as important. And that gets us back to something. Priya, when you said, like, what's the purpose of this? Maybe one of the things that people could name is this holiday. I just want a minute to feel sad that my dad is gone, because I get beautiful mail about this. I caught one the other day. That was a family that was celebrating the holidays for the first time, and they had a great time, but they realized that they just couldn't quite find a place to grieve the fact that they just lost the dad of the family. And so they went outside in the backyard and they lit a fire. And then for some reason, someone just pulled out a card that was like the worst bereavement card that they'd gotten that just said every insensitive thing like God needed an angel. And then they, like, laughed and someone threw it in the fire. And then everyone else just started, like, writing down or saying out loud every stupid, horrible thing that someone had said to them that year.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That is not where I saw you going with that story, Kate, with the Fire under the stars.

[Kate Bowler]

No, it was like catharsis. They laughed.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's real.

[Kate Bowler]

But I like that what people give themselves sometimes is if there's a script, just let yourself know. Okay. Right now I'm following the script, but there might need to be a moment where I need to go off script, and that might end up being the most beautiful thing that happens.

[Frances Lam]

And then they roasted marshmallows in that fire.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes, exactly. And the scorn of our enemies.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And can you think of any other examples? Like, is it a moment of silence around a table or are there other suggestions? And maybe people are wanting to bring this to a family gathering and they're not sure how to broach it.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Sometimes saying like, can we do this specific thing? Is easier.

[Kate Bowler]

I totally agree. And I do think food is such a lovely way, especially that feels like a. Like some kind of memory or memorial where, like grandma's bun recipe, that kind of thing. But I do think too, it's okay to. To add a little twist, especially if something feels too sweet, that it starts to feel painful. So, for instance, I know this family where they'd lost their son and they just weren't sure what to do with his stocking. And they just decided, well, what if I just put it up? But what if just. So the year right after he died, they all just wrote little notes and put it in the stocking. And they didn't read them because they weren't ready, but they just decided it was like a little moment of hope that maybe next year they could write another note and maybe next year they'd be ready to take something out and read it back as a story about a love that goes on and on.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Elizabeth, you know that this year I am hosting Thanksgiving for the second time. Huge bucket list for me. And one of the things that makes it easier to prepare for any kind of big gathering, whether it's Thanksgiving or friendsgiving or any kind of celebration, is knowing that you can go to one place that you know you're going to get high standards and good prices. And this is why I love going to Whole Foods Market. I can look for the 365 brand, and I know that I'm going to get everything that I need and want for a good price with the quality that I can count on.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, they have everything from low price quality turkey to pantry essentials. And Gretchen, I have to add frozen appetizers, which are perfect for someone like me who is not a great cook. I love to get the quiche trio, their butterfly shrimp and breaded calamari. It's all so easy to prepare and so delicious. Enjoy. So many ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You know, Liza, two things that we talk about all the time. One is the importance of relationships in a happier life and also holding on to memories, often through photographs. And a way that these two things combine is through holiday cards. Because holiday cards do so much to connect us with the people that we love. And staying connected with those people during the holidays can feel so meaningful, but it can also feel like a lot of work. And so then it's easy to let the tradition of sending cards slide because it feels overwhelming. I love Shutterfly. I have used Shutterfly for years, perhaps decades, because Shutterfly makes it so easy to work with photographs, to create all different kinds of things. And in particular cards, their designs let.

[Elizabeth]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Elizabeth]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

D T. It's beautiful. That is beautiful.

[Priya Parker]

There's so much intelligence in that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Priya Parker]

Like giving permission without diving in too deep.

[Gretchen Rubin]

When actually literally, physically touching something, having an actual representation of the person who's been lost. So that is so powerful.

[Kate Bowler]

It is amazing how many, like, place settings, stockings. Like, maybe all this stuff is, like, a good sign for us. Like, maybe let's just look at it again for a second time and wonder, what could this object mean exactly?

[Priya Parker]

Your story's reminding me of another example, and it was a way someone was trying to figure out. It was the first Thanksgiving for this woman, Amanda, without her grandmother. And I think sort of like so many families or friends, it's like, when you think about it ahead of time, and if you want to prepare, it's like, well, what is the right level of, like, touching this but also letting it be? And she wasn't sure. So her mother was hosting their extended family, and they were still kind of rattled from the loss. And Amanda called, ahead of time.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Priya Parker]

It's also thinking about the gathering starts at the invitation, but also, like, really thinking about the intentionality is really thinking ahead of time. What would we like to happen? And so she called her mother and she said, you know, what feelings do you want to elicit at dinner? And her mother said, comfort and happiness. And Amanda then reached out to all of the guests, asking them to send a few songs that brought them comfort and happiness, which she then used to make a playlist for the Thanksgiving dinner. And it was this subtle and gentle form of invitation at a tender moment. But then what happened is, throughout the evening, when the guests would hear the song and be like, that's my song. It's sort of like, that's my cordial. And then shared why they chose the tracks they did, and they talked about the concerts they attended and sang along with songs they had in common with her grandmother. So it was kind of this back way in. And she later said it was just the right level of summoning that they needed that allowed them to have the shared soundtrack that they all contributed to that was touching on what at least the mother was saying she wanted to experience in that tender moment.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, that's making me realize, like, we're really talking about the five senses. It's taste, it's touch, it's hearing, it's smelling, it's seeing. Of course, like, the more that we can feel it in our bodies, I think the More powerful it is. So here's a question for all of you, something that people talk about all the time, is that sometimes the holidays leave us feeling exhausted instead of restored. What is one common societal pressure or expectation around celebrations, holiday, or any kind of celebration that you would like to see disappear forever? And why, if you could just strike it out, what would it be?

[Frances Lam]

That all the food has to be hot.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Ooh. Say more. Francis, this is the guy who is number one in. This is. This is. Yeah. Okay, tell us.

[Frances Lam]

I'm staying in my lane, but I would say this. I think one of the things I do see people when they're hosting, when they're preparing the food or whatever, it's really hard to get a lot of food on the table hot at the same time.

[Kate Bowler]

It is.

[Frances Lam]

And so maybe you don't have to. Mashed potatoes do have to be hot. I will say that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay.

[Frances Lam]

But if there's only one thing hot, maybe it's just the mashed potatoes. The turkey, you know, it can be warm, right? The roast can be warm. Make a lot of. When you're, you know, when you're preparing a menu, think of lots of things that people love to eat room temperature or even chilled. You can pre make them, you can bring them out, you can bust them out of the fridge an hour before people show up. And you don't have to be fussing and stressing about getting nine hot things on the table at the same time. So I would. It's a little bit specific and practical, but I want to spread the good word of a beautiful salad and a platter of roasted vegetables is a beautiful side.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Excellent. I love that.

[Kate Bowler]

I love that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, any other candidates?

[Kate Bowler]

I have strong feelings about big moments being too big. I mean, really, like historically, Christmas, for example, wasn't supposed to just be Christmas. It really was supposed to be 12 days of Christmas. Not to make a living nightmare for every human woman, but in order to spread out the kinds of things you actually want at Christmas. Like, you do want a nice food moment with your immediate family, but actually there's a great time to go to your neighbors and have a low key thing. And actually there's a nice moment of volunteerism where it's actually the time to think about those less food fortunate. And I think that having the idea that there needs to be one enormous thing can be kind of overwhelming. So I do love it when people do things, even just in the not holiday holidays is just something like a this is a big deal to me party. Like, oh my gosh, you finally broke up with that boyfriend. Oh, congratulations. You started menopause. Drinks. You paid off a loan. Cake. I think it's a great thing to just let smaller moments be bigger and bigger moments. Moments be smaller.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So here's my suggestion, because my next book is about the empty nest as a forced reckoning of adulthood. I'm going to try to convince the world. A lot of people take a trip right after they drop a freshman off at college to be a buffer. I want to call this the fresh moon. There's the baby moon. There's the honeymoon, and this is the fresh moon. It's a fresh start for you as you drop off your freshman. What do you think? It's a new celebration.

[Priya Parker]

I love it. I love it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay.

[Priya Parker]

And so much of modern life is there's these two different things we're holding. So mine would be your gathering doesn't have to look a certain way.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Ooh. Okay.

[Priya Parker]

And in modern life, so many of our rituals no longer actually serve our need. So we keep replicating these old forms, but then we feel like we don't have the permission to celebrate what our modern needs are. Right. So, like, what you're doing the fresh. What did you call it?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Fresh moon.

[Priya Parker]

Right, the fresh moon. The divorce party, the colonoscopy party.

[Kate Bowler]

Is that because, you know that I.

[Elizabeth]

Just put the gin in the drink.

[Frances Lam]

They make you do before. There you go.

[Priya Parker]

And so, so much of this is, like, both being intentional and paying more attention to what is our actual need. When are we actually feeling tender? What is it that our ancestors didn't actually have to deal with? And so there wasn't a ritual tomorrow. Most people didn't live till 90. You know, whatever it might be. Divorce wasn't allowed in those mega churches. You know, whatever it is that it's like when we have transitions.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Priya Parker]

Gatherings are basically about marking transitions. And the best gatherings also transform us. They take us from a state, and they take us to a state. So when Francis and his wife are making dumplings, folding dumplings with their child, at some level, like, they're folding dumplings, but they're also taking that child and the family from a state of the three of them to a state in which Chineseness is also part of their formation.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And one of the things I love about Kate, your idea of the gingerbread houses is like, this was your scholarly research and experience was coming in. Like, it's like. I'm sure it was fascinating to people to be like, oh, why are we doing this?

[Priya Parker]

Why is that?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, it's like you're bringing in all these parts and sharing them with people in this really imaginative way. So I think it's right. We can recreate these things according to what life looks like now, rather than these very traditional kind of, you know, a Christmas carol vision of what a holiday looks like. So coming up, we are going to talk about very simple. Try this at home, suggestions about how to transform the holidays, but in a way that's manageable. But first, this break. Okay, we're back. So this is the question of if you could suggest a concrete, manageable thing that the ordinary person could do in the ordinary year to make their holidays brighter and easier or more meaningful, how to make their celebrations more intentional, what would you suggest?

[Priya Parker]

I can go first. I have a philosophical one and a practical one. The philosophical one is pause and ask, what is the purpose of this year? What is my need? What is our family or our community's need this year? And to assume that that question will be different. The answer will be different based on the year. It's like you don't. What you need or want, even as a birthday when you're 27 is different than at 36, is different at 72. So to keep asking the question because the river changes. So ask that question. But the second this is super practical is bring a tub, a tiny tub of sparkle with you. What? And I. This is like my number one guesting tip. I wish I had it with me right now, but I have this little tub of sparkles. And it's like a little. It's like you are the face glitter. Face glitter face.

[Frances Lam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But Priya, this stuff gets into your life in a way that gets.

[Priya Parker]

No, it's very good quality. No, no, no, no. It's very good quality.

[Kate Bowler]

Gretchen is like, this is a health problem.

[Priya Parker]

This tiny, tiny little. It's a tiny little tub. And I'll maybe put a little bit, a little wink on my, you know, eyebrow or like, eyes on the side of them. And people will always say, oh, my gosh, I love your sparkle. And I'll say, thanks so much. Do you want some? Oh. And nine out of ten times they say, yes, yes. And you basically sparkle the entire group over time and they've become something together.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Now, see, I was envisioning, like, a container of sparkles that you were, like, throwing into the air like confetti. No, no, no. That would be in someone's rug for the next 10 years. This is sort of like, thank you.

[Priya Parker]

For the fact check.

[Gretchen Rubin]

This is face glitter. A kind of face.

[Priya Parker]

Tiny Little tub of face glitter. And I will even take it to, like, restaurants or. And sometimes just put a little dab on. And a host system or a host may say, oh, my gosh, I love your glitter. And I will say to them, thanks so much. And I pull it out. I'm like, do you want some?

[Kate Bowler]

And they're like.

[Priya Parker]

And it's just like, it's elevated the night a little bit. It's like a tiny little mask. It's a tiny little wink. And it just shifts people into this vibrant mood.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's a little bit of whimsy.

[Priya Parker]

It is.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That is a wonderful suggestion. Okay. Frances, Kate, how about you? Do you have a suggestion?

[Kate Bowler]

Mine's kind of. No, no, Francis, go. Mine's a bummer.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, no. Kay.

[Priya Parker]

Say yours.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Say yours.

[Kate Bowler]

Katie. I think it serves us well if we decide if we are a restaurant family. I define a restaurant family as a family where the whole family can have the entire meal and no one has to go sit in the car because of a conflict that was had while someone else pays the bill. Are you a restaurant family? I do not come from a restaurant family. I come from a family of highly intelligent, wonderful, emotionally amazing people who, when combined, can't usually make it through the meal. And sometimes we play the game, who's crying? Oh, wait, is it me? And that happens so often for completely lovely, well meaning people that it might be worth just saying, are we a restaurant family? If we're a family where there's going to be no drama, then great, like, have the million meals all, like, courses all in a row and make sure that there's, like, a heavy ritual that goes with it. But if you're not, maybe a buffet, maybe, like, take it down a notch. I made a rule because I can't do Thanksgiving in the normal way this year. I just can't. Last time people got upset, there was just too.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It felt too, like, freighted.

[Kate Bowler]

I tried really hard. I wouldn't say that. I felt like all the effort in making everything the way everyone wanted actually paid off. And I just decided this year, pizza, it's gonna be really nice pizza. It's gonna be pizza everyone likes. But, like, we're not gonna. We're not gonna, like, take a restaurant family and force them to do something they maybe not be capable of doing.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So it's sort of like, face the reality of your people.

[Kate Bowler]

Yeah. And so. And then I will love them as much as the moment when I walked in to the very beginning of that experience.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, that's good. Ask yourself, are We a restaurant family.

[Kate Bowler]

I love that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, Frances.

[Frances Lam]

Well, I have to say mine is a little bit the opposite of Kate's in the sense that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, the opposite of a profound truth is also true. So.

[Frances Lam]

Dry sherry, I really consider dry sherry ice cold. People don't expect it. It's delicious with even drink. I love it. That's one practical thing. But the other thing I would say is.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Wait, wait, wait. What? Dry sherry? So just for those of us who are not very sophisticated, Sherry is a kind of.

[Frances Lam]

Sherry is a kind of fortified wine from Spain. And it comes in many different varieties, from dry to, like, cream or sweet. But the dry sherry, if you don't have a good sort of vibe around Sherry, maybe because you think of it as like a drink from an older generation, someone who had and was very sweet and syrupy. But the dry sherry can be served very cold. And it's delightful.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Wonderful.

[Frances Lam]

And I actually like the stuff in between called the oloroso. But it's, like, kind of yellowy. It's kind of like funky tasting. I love it. I don't even drink, but I just love the taste of it. But the other thing I was gonna say is thinking about Priya's question of ask yourself, what's the purpose of this? This year?

[Priya Parker]

Sure.

[Frances Lam]

And this is a year where I have felt very profoundly like all you have in this world is each other. I've been thinking about that a lot. I've been feeling that a lot. I've been wanting to gather with people more, spending more time with people. And this thing, again, I think of, if you're going to have people over, have them be a part of the preparation. Have them be a part of it. Have them. And cooking with people does not come naturally for everyone. I was a terrible cook with people person. I was very controlling. Everything had to be just so. Like, if you stood in the way between me and the stove and the sink, when I need to get the pasta out of the water, I get really, like, really agitated.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Frances Lam]

You know, and I just had to, like, grow up, you know, to me, I was like, grow up, dude. But the reality is, like, it's a learned skill. But practice that skill.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Is there a food you'd suggest that lends itself to that, a dish?

[Frances Lam]

Oh, I don't know. Well, that's a great question. I would think anything that is very time sensitive, like, has to happen in a precise window. I would probably not try to do with people, but get people over and make a beautiful stew, make a beautiful braise that can go in the oven for several hours. So you can ask, hey, will you peel the onions? Will you chop the carrots? Will you do this? Can we, hey, can someone make a drink for us? You know, think of a dish that has multiple steps and components and set people on one of the steps. And I think there is something to that sense of contribution that is extremely satisfying to people. In addition to, oh, we can all just kind of hang out and gossip or catch each other up on our lives or so on, so forth.

[Priya Parker]

I have a children's book for you. This is gonna tie together our whole conversation.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Stone soup.

[Frances Lam]

I was gonna say stone soup. Is it stone soup?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, that's wonderful. Well, and it's a story with a twist, which we will not give away the twist ending. But for anyone who does not know the famous story of stone soup, that is a wonderful. That's a wonderful story. And thank you, Priya. Talk about, like, bringing all the strands of this conversation together. That is wonderful. And I think the bottom line is do it, however works for you. Just bring people together and just relationships are so important to our happiness, and we can make these moments work for us, whatever that looks. And that is it for this roundtable discussion of intentional celebration. Thank you to Priya Parker, Frances Lam, and Kate Bowler.

[Kate Bowler]

Aw, thanks, guys.

[Frances Lam]

Thanks, everyone.

[Priya Parker]

Thank you for having us. And, you know, as we close listening to all of this advice, the thing I would most say is just host a gathering you want to attend.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. Right.

[Priya Parker]

And if you're like, I wish I could just do that. You can do that. You can do that. The best gathering start as jokes. The best traditions start as someone literally being like, I wish we could just do a Whitney Houston drum contest. And then they do it. So find your energy.

[Gretchen Rubin]

The Thanksgiving pizza. Yeah, the tradition starts now.

[Kate Bowler]

Yes, I'll let you know. Let you know how it goes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And thanks due to our producer, Chuck Reed. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. From the onward project.

[Kate Bowler]

Hi, Gretchen. Craig Robinson and my little sister Michelle here. We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this what activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me? Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition. For more great advice, search for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Wherever you get podcasts, you can listen to Issa Rae on letting go of certain friendships Keke Palmer on why disappointment is actually the key to career success Seth and Lauren Rogan on caring for aging parents and so many more.