More Happier: Embrace the Immersive, Reflect on Your Algorithm & Clear Clutter to Boost Energy

Summary

Happier with Gretchen Rubin

Episode: More Happier: Embrace the Immersive, Reflect on Your Algorithm & Clear Clutter to Boost Energy
Date: November 1, 2025
Hosts: Gretchen Rubin & Elizabeth Craft

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Gretchen Rubin and her sister/co-host Elizabeth Craft explore the joy and energy-boosting power of clearing clutter, embrace the rise of “immersive” experiences, and reflect on how our digital algorithms can serve as surprising mirrors for self-knowledge. Woven with personal anecdotes, practical habits, and playful banter, the conversation offers listeners fresh ideas for getting happier by examining their surroundings, routines, and even their social media feeds.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Joy and Impact of Clearing Clutter

(Starts around [02:49])

• Elizabeth’s Closet Organizing Journey

  • Elizabeth describes how Gretchen recently helped her ruthlessly purge her closet, moving from simply getting rid of stuff to actively organizing what remains.
  • She discusses the process: sorting products, finding containers (but not overdoing it), and creating purpose-driven solutions (like a basket for cold-weather gear).
  • Elizabeth compares it to “playing house or like dollhouse,” making the process more playful and creative.

• Gretchen’s Clutter Philosophy

  • Gretchen shares her own excitement for clearing space, noting her mother’s philosophy that kitchen counters should only have frequently-used items.
  • She recounts noticing a coffee machine that had become “wallpaper,” only to discover it was broken and could be removed, freeing up space.

Notable Quotes

• Elizabeth (04:03): “You know what I'm likening it to is like playing house or like dollhouse.”
• Gretchen (05:13): “A lot of this is putting things in a way where I know instantly how to get to it.”
• Gretchen (08:27): “That’s kind of a way to reframe it. That’s more fun than, like, ‘oh, I need to clean out this closet.’”
• Gretchen (10:26): “The minute that I allowed my eye to fall on it and question its presence in my life, I realized we didn’t need it.”

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2. Immersive Experiences: Why They Are So Engaging

(Begins at [15:17])

• Gretchen’s Immersive Adventures

  • Recently attended “Viola’s Room” (an art installation with audio, tactile exploration, and darkness) and “Masquerade” (a Phantom-of-the-Opera themed event requiring formal, color-coordinated attire).
  • She observes that the “immersive” trend is about engaging multiple senses and stepping outside routine, even noting how one event required participants to be barefoot, enhancing the sensory impact.
  • Gretchen muses on how memorable these experiences are, suggesting they’d make great date activities thanks to their uniqueness and the conversation they spark.

• Elizabeth’s Virtual Titanic Experience

  • Shares that she, her husband, and son did a virtual reality Titanic tour, which recreated walking through the ship and viewing the wreck—proving that “immersive” can be both physical and digital.

Notable Quotes

• Gretchen (15:17): “I realized you just slap the word immersive in front of anything, and I am raising my hand and buying my ticket.”
• Elizabeth (18:09): “Jack and Adam and I went ... on a virtual reality tour of the Titanic ... you see the iceberg and saw different cabins ... just a tour of the Titanic, but virtual.”
• Gretchen (19:59): “Now I’m on the lookout for more. I’m like, bring it on. I want more and more.”

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3. Algorithmic Self-Knowledge: What Your Feed Says About You

(Starts at [25:09])

• Elizabeth’s TikTok Insights

  • She reflects on how her TikTok algorithm sends her a steady stream of Stevie Nicks singing “Landslide,” stylist advice, and reality TV content—along with “corgi content.”
  • Realizes the algorithm is a strikingly honest mirror of her interests.

• Gretchen’s Reflections

  • Gretchen receives “quirky historical facts,” space-saving furniture tips, and dog training content—much of which overlaps with her focus on New York City living and her interests.
  • Discusses the psychological significance of the algorithm: like a mirror, it reveals latent (or not-so-latent) preferences.

• Hacking Your Feed for Happiness

  • Elizabeth makes a point of not clicking on content that’s negative, because that can prompt more of what she doesn’t want to see.
  • She actively “hearts” content she loves (like “Landslide”) to encourage more of it, demonstrating purposeful algorithm steering.

Notable Quotes

• Elizabeth (25:49): “This does say a lot about me. Like, I can't argue with that algorithm.”
• Gretchen (26:17): “This is another way where sometimes it's hard to know ourselves directly. And this is a mirror that's being held up to you.”
• Elizabeth (28:08): “I make a point of not clicking on anything that I know could lead to a rabbit hole of negativity ... I really do try to be aware.”
• Gretchen (29:38): “Lately I've been thinking a lot about the phrase ‘furnish my brain’ ... you have to get stuff in your brain. The thing is, with all this social media... it is furnishing our brain.”

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4. Secrets of Adulthood: Making Time Real

(Starts at [31:21])

• Gretchen’s Most Popular Secret
  • The adage “Something that can happen at any time often happens at no time” resonates deeply with listeners.
  • She and Elizabeth reflect on how specifying a deadline or time frame (even arbitrarily) increases the odds of achieving something important.

Notable Quotes

• Gretchen (31:27): “Something that can happen at any time often happens at no time.”
• Elizabeth (32:12): “I say it all the time, Gretchen. I mean, it resonates with me.”

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Memorable & Fun Moments

• Step-Stool Epiphany

  • Elizabeth touts the “life-changing” value of having a step stool in your closet, especially for walk-in spaces ([06:58]).

• Closet Maximalists vs. Minimalists

  • The sisters laugh about different philosophies of kitchen counter clutter (Advil bottles, mixers out, etc.), revealing family splits on what “order” means ([10:37]).

• Mary Tyler Moore Viral Video

  • Gretchen brings up a TikTok favorite: a clip of Mary Tyler Moore’s accidental trick shot, which makes her smile every time ([31:04]).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:49] – Elizabeth’s closet purge and reframing organizing as “play”
• [04:45] – Discussion of smart container use and closet logistics
• [08:27] – Making organizing fun vs. a drag (“playing dollhouse”)
• [10:26] – Gretchen on reclaiming counter space at home
• [15:17] – Gretchen’s love for immersive experiences (Viola’s Room & Masquerade)
• [18:09] – Elizabeth’s virtual Titanic tour and thoughts on VR experiences
• [25:09] – The algorithm as a surprising tool for self-knowledge (TikTok feeds as personality mirrors)
• [29:38] – The concept of “furnishing your brain” through curated social content
• [31:21] – “Secret of Adulthood” and how intentions shape accomplishment

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Practical Happiness Takeaways

• Clearing clutter isn’t just functional; reframing it as play makes the process enjoyable and less daunting.
• Immersive experiences—whether art, theater, or virtual reality—engage the senses and can be a great way to break out of routine, connect with others, or even make a memorable date.
• Algorithms are modern mirrors, reflecting your interests, habits, and even moods. Being intentional about your digital input (“furnishing your brain”) helps steer your emotional landscape.
• Applying deadlines or frameworks to “someday” plans transforms them into real achievements.

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Final Words

The episode is light-hearted, encouraging, and full of sibling rapport. Their message is consistent: by tackling clutter, embracing new experiences, and being mindful of what we let into our minds (and feeds), we can create lives that are a little more organized, meaningful, and—most importantly—happier.

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For more good advice and relatable sisterly banter, subscribe to Happier with Gretchen Rubin and check out Gretchen’s new advice podcast, “Since You Asked” with Lori Gottlieb.

Transcript

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Hello, we are here for Happier, a podcast where we get happier with a little bit of a weekend vibe. As to our discussion. Hey Elizabeth.

[A]

Hey Gretch.

[B]

Today we'll talk about the joys of immersive experiences and a perhaps surprising way to know yourself better. But first, something making us happier. Elizabeth, what's making you happier?

[A]

All right, Gretch. Well, you were here a while back and helped me purge my closet.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So this was a real getting rid of thing.

[B]

That is a really good point. We were in purge mode. This was like keep or donate.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We weren't doing anything other than just that sheer filter.

[A]

Just making the closet emptier.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And now I have been working on actually organizing the closet, which is very un me. But you helping me do that really kind of motivated me. So it took a while, but eventually like I went to the Container Store. Now I didn't want to go crazy because we know you don't want to go too wild with the containers. Got some different little. I guess not shelves, but little things to try in my closet to help me organize different things that I have. And I've been working on that and figuring out what works and working on simultaneously. I would say my closet and my bathroom counter because that's also totally out of control. And I can sort of do some shifting there to help. So I'm enjoying it. You know what I'm likening it to is like playing house or like dollhouse.

[B]

Yes, the organizing. And I could put it here, I could put it there. Well, I think you're very wise to be wary of the containers because I do think sometimes we buy containers so we can jam more junk into less space rather than saying what do I need? Do I even need these gizmos or gadgets or containers? But on the other hand, it is true that sometimes the right container in the right shape and the right size can really make it a lot easier. So I'm curious, what kind of thing did you get? Because I will say you have a great closet. You have a walk in closet. It's got low rods and high rods. It's got a built in chest of drawers. So you've got a surface and you've got drawers. So you really do have a good closet to work with.

[A]

Yes, I got these things to put on my shelves. Cause I have a lot of built in shelves to sort of act as drawers, I guess you'd say to organize things, like different products that I have that I haven't used yet. You know, that I have like a backlog of.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To like put scarves in or pashminas. Like just things that if I have them neatly put somewhere, they end up taking up less space. And also I know where to find them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

A lot of this is putting things in a way where I know instantly how to get to it. Like I just realized I have this kind of big basket that I've now emptied because I've put the things other places and I've realized, okay, this basket should be for all the things I want if I go shoot somewhere cold.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

So my warm long underwear, the rechargeable hand warmer that Sarah gave me, my warm mittens, you know, all in this basket.

[B]

I will never forget, Elizabeth, when you were getting ready to shoot in Hungary, at the last minute, there was this coat you saw online. It was like, if you are going on an Arctic expedition to the North Pole or whatever, you know, this is what you need. And you're like, should I get it? And then in the end, you did, and it was like, even that was barely warm enough. I mean, sometimes you really need that stuff.

[A]

Yeah. It can be cold and rainy and.

[B]

Windy and all, but you don't need it in your ordinary life at all.

[A]

Absolutely don't need it. Even in Kansas City, I'm never going to wear some of this really warm stuff. I just don't need to. But it's really nice to have it all in one place because it's also stuff. I always need all of it at once.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that type of thing.

[B]

But also, when things are contained to something like scarves, they're hard to keep organized. They tend to slip and slide, and then they're messy and going all over the place. So even visually, they look disordered unless you spend a lot of time, like, carefully tending to them. So I like the idea of putting them something where they're contained well. And one thing I don't remember. Were you talking about it somewhere or were we talking about it in person? About having a step stool and why having a step stool in your closet was so important.

[A]

Sarah and I on Happier in Hollywood, we talked about a hack was to have a step stool in your closet, which is a total game changer because being able to easily reach a high shelf on a closet does make life better.

[B]

Yeah. Because you have, like a row of shelves that's at the top, and. And so you want to use it, but it's not convenient to get to it. Unless I can see how having a step stool would be great for me. It would be a problem because since I don't have a walk in closet, where would the step stool go? I'd have to find someplace because I wouldn't want to just have it out.

[A]

Well, you could have it at the bottom of your closet.

[B]

Well, I could move my hats. Okay. See, this is the kind of thing where you're like, well, maybe I could do it. You know, you start thinking about it, and then as you were organizing, did you. I Find that sometimes clearing clutter, especially for something big like a closet or a kitchen, it kind of goes in layers. You can't get everything all at once. You sort of peel off a layer, and then underneath that layer, you're like, ooh, maybe I see other things at this layer that I didn't see the first time I went through it, because we went through most of the stuff. Did you get purge anything more?

[A]

Yes, I am purging more as I go. Not as much. Not like that big release that we had when you were here, But I'm getting rid of more things as I go. Absolutely. And I have to say, this is a very active process. Gretchen. I'm in no way done with this. You know me, I don't move fast on the organizing, but I am enjoying it as I go.

[B]

But I think it's good to think of it as more like you're playing with your dollhouse, or you're just having fun neatening things up and organizing and like, ooh, I'll put this here and this there. That's kind of a way to reframe it. That's more fun than, like, oh, I need to clean out this closet, because it's a big drag on Adam every time he walks past it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This just feels more fun. Little bit of whimsy. Little bit of whimsy.

[A]

Yes. And of course, I can listen to a podcast or a book as I do it, which is delightful.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Gretch, how about you? What's making you more happier?

[B]

Well, mine is similar in that it involves clearing clutter. You see why I wrote the book Outer Order Inner Calm? Because I was like, I find this so exciting. So I'm always, like, looking around like, ooh, is there something we can do? And one thing our mother is kind of one of her pet peeves is a lot of stuff on counters in the kitchen. She thinks you should only have the things that you use all the time. And she's just a big fan of minimal stuff on counters. And I would say I've internalized that. So I was looking at our counters, which are pretty clear, and I thought, well, but we have this big coffee machine. We have multiple ways of making coffee. And this was one that Jamie got, and I thought, I haven't seen him use it in as long as I can remember. So I took a picture of it, texted it to him, and said, can I put this away because you don't use it regularly. Can we just put it on a high shelf? And he said, actually, it's missing an essential piece, so we don't really need to hang onto it. So I was like, okay, this big, looming, complicated coffee machine thing has been broken probably at least a year, maybe multiple years, and it just became wallpaper. And the minute that I allowed my eye to fall on it and question its presence in my life, I realized we didn't need it. And if he had wanted to keep it, we could have just found some high shelf where he could have gotten it down if he wanted it. It just didn't need to be this hulking thing in the corner. So it made me very happy to just be like, oh, and now it's just like, I rearranged all the stuff that's actually there. It just looks open. And it's nice not to have things that aren't being used.

[A]

That makes a big difference, especially in a kitchen. Yeah. Reclaiming that counter space is nice.

[B]

These are things you use. You use all the time. So it's nice to have a lot of room to spread out when you want to spread out.

[A]

Yeah. It's funny when you think. Think about counter space, kitchen counter space. There's the people who want to have the big mixer up on the counter all the time, and then the people who do not. I feel like that's the kind of dividing line. The KitchenAid mixer.

[B]

Yes. Do you want everything out at the ready? But then there are people who keep. I remember walking into a friend's kitchen, and she had, like, a bottle of Advil out, and it's like, it clearly went there. It wasn't clutter. It was like, this is where I keep it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, that is something that I would not keep on the kitchen counter. And that was just one of, like, a thousand. But clearly that's what she liked, is, oh, everything here is right at hand. No right way, no wrong way. I guess we were just raised with the clear counter.

[A]

Well, the ideal. I will say my counters are anything but clear. They are the opposite. Definitely a bottle of Advil on my countertop.

[B]

Well, there's no right way, no wrong way. Maybe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, maybe we've got a split in our family approach. Eleanor is definitely in your camp. She's the maximalist who wants everything out all the time.

[A]

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[A]

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[A]

All right, we are back. There's something you've been meaning to tell me. What is it?

[B]

Okay. I, in the last few months, have gone to two immersive experiences, and I realized you just slap the word immersive in front of anything, and I am raising my hand and buying my ticket. I want to go to anything immersive. These are so fun. So the first one was called Viola's Room, and this was more like an art thing. You put on headphones, and you were in a group of seven, and you heard a story, and you were led through spaces that suggested scenes and episodes from the story. And you had bare feet, which was interesting. I've never done an immersive experience where you had bare feet and there was sand and there was concrete and there was burlap and there was shag carpeting. At one point, you crawled. There were a couple points where you were in total darkness. And this is the thing in modern life, you basically have to shut yourself inside a closet to get total darkness. They were like, don't have an apple watch or a watch that makes any light. And it was very unsettling to open your eyes and have complete darkness. And I don't know how they did it, but they did it in a way that a lot of times you felt like you were by yourself, even though you were moving in a group. And a few times, it, like, you were almost sidling through a passageway. So it was really playing with your sense of space and the ability to see and noises. Then they did warn you. I thought this was funny. They warned you at the beginning. There are no jump scares. Because I'm like, if you're the kind of person who doesn't want to jump, scare, you would have just been out of your mind in this thing, because it just feels like. Like there's gonna be one. But you are like, no, there's no one. So that was really, really interesting. And then I went to this thing called Masquerade. So I had never seen the Phantom of the Opera musical or movie or read the book or anything. It was based on Phantom of the Opera. What was interesting about this immersive experience is you had to dress up. Oh, you had to wear formal attire, and apparently people have been kicked out and not allowed in because they were not dressed up. You have to wear black, white, or silver.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

But you had to wear flat shoes because you were walking so much. And you walked into this huge place, and you're led through these scenes and these actors are performing, but you're in it, you know, it's happening around you, and you're moving through space and you're seeing things. And it was just interesting, you know, Ever since I wrote Life in Five Senses, I've been so interested in the engagement of the Five Senses. A friend of mine is starting to date, and I was like, you should go on one of these things as a date. It's just different. It's interesting. It'd be something interesting to experience together, and it gives you something to talk about, you know?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a great date.

[B]

And in fact, on both of them, there were a lot of people there. I was like, you look like you're on a date, so. Yes. I was not the only one to have that idea. Basilica. You know what I'm talking about?

[A]

Yeah. We actually recently, Jack and Adam and I went and did a. This was a virtual reality thing, but it was like a virtual reality tour of the Titanic. So we went and put on the virtual headset and then did a thing where we walked through the Titanic and saw the iceberg and saw different cabins, you know, and just a tour of the Titanic, but virtual.

[B]

When you do that, are you, like, walking in an empty room that looks to you like it has something in it? Like when you say you are walking through it, what is actually happening in real life?

[A]

Yes. There's a huge empty room, and different clumps of people are walking around different areas with these headsets on. And it's funny because I just have really bad space issues. So for me, when we were walking down the stairs into the dining room of the Titanic, I know that we're just on a floor, but I could not get myself to walk, quote, unquote, down the stairs because I felt like I was gonna fall.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

It took me, like, a few minutes, and I was just shuffling along.

[B]

Right, right, right, right.

[A]

So out of sorts about it.

[B]

Did people ever bang into each other?

[A]

Yes, well, Adam and Jack and I banged into each other a little bit. But you're far enough away from the other groups that most likely you wouldn't do that. There's people guiding you throughout virtual people. But you see someone and then they do a thing where they take you down to the bottom of the ocean, and you see the wreckage, and they're like, we've made you 50 times taller so you could look down on the ship.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

It was fun. You know, it's just different again, just something like a fun thing to do.

[B]

Yeah. A different kind of immersive.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Interesting. Now I'm on the lookout for more. I'm like, bring it on. I want more and more.

[A]

Well, New York has to be the absolute center of this sort of thing. I bet you have a lot of them.

[B]

It was funny, though. I remember at one point, there was immersive Van Gogh and Van Gogh, the immersive experience, and they were different. Oh, and I kept having to check my ticket and, like, am I going to the address that goes with my ticket? You know what I mean? Because I would look it up and then be like, wait, which one is this? Yeah, it was very confusing.

[A]

Anyway, Gretch, I am curious. Can I just ask, what did you wear to the masquerade?

[B]

I wore a black cocktail dress and then black loafers.

[A]

Just curious.

[B]

And they give you a mask. It's called Masquerade. And you're invited to bring your own mask. And some people brought really elaborate masks, but if you didn't bring a mask, they gave you one, so you wore a mask. And so there was sort of the theme of masquerade fun, which is a word that I love. I love the word masquerade. So, yeah, they were both very, very interesting. And I would do the Titanic thing, too.

[A]

Okay, Gretch, what is our spotlight on a tool this week?

[B]

Well, I am so excited because my new podcast, the advice podcast that I'm doing with Lori Gottlieb called Since youe Asked is out, and Lori and I are having so much fun doing this show. Please check it out, follow since youe Asked wherever you get your podcasts. As always, rate and review. That really helps the new show. Tell your friends. But just most of all, check it out. We're really, really having a lot of fun with this, trying to take the advice format to a whole new level. So it is super fun, and I hope people enjoy it as much as we do.

[A]

Well, you know, Gretch, I have been a fan of Lori's forever, so this is so fun for me to get to hear you two together. I love it.

[B]

She's the author of maybe youe Should Talk To Someone, and a lot of people know her from that, and she also has a New York Times advice column so that she's super fun. To work with. So yay.

[A]

Yay Gretch. Coming up, there's something I've been meaning to ask you. But first, this break.

[B]

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. You know, Elizabeth, the seasons are changing. The days are growing darker, sooner. It can be a tough time for people. And this November, Better Help is encouraging everyone to reach out and to check on the people that we love. And you know, whenever I do this, whenever I reach out, I always think, why didn't I do this sooner? And that's what people often say about therapy. They wish they had reached out to a therapist sooner. With BetterHelp, they do the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps you identify your needs and preferences. And with their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment, they typically get it right the first time. Matching you to a therapist this month.

[A]

Don'T wait to reach out. Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] GretchenRubin that's betterhelp.com GretchenRubin One thing.

[B]

That we've often mentioned on the podcast is how when you personalize a gift, it feels so much more meaningful. And a wonderful way to give a personalized gift is to capture a memory and share it. And Shutterfly makes it so easy to create meaningful gifts from photos that you already have. You can create photo books. This is something that I've done for years. I have so many Shutterfly photo books. You can create a blanket, an ornament. Elizabeth how many mugs have we given to our parents with different photographs on them? It is such a thoughtful way to connect with people during the holidays and to give a gift that feels like so special and something that they will treasure forever.

[A]

Yes, make something that means something this holiday shop shutterfly.com happier for gifts like custom mugs, photo books, calendars, blankets and tabletop prints. Right now you'll get free shipping on your order with promo code Happier. This promo code can be stacked with any other offer. Details are on the site. Gretch, you know how much I love Audible. Audiobooks are such a huge part of my life. I'm always telling people to start listening to audiobooks. What I love is that Audible has something for everyone. My most recent book I've teed up to listen to is 4th Wing by Rebecca Yarros. I am a huge romance lover, have been since I was 12 years old and I've heard so much about this book, I cannot wait to start listening.

[B]

Yeah, that's the great thing about Audible. They have whatever you're in the mood for. You can hear modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu and Ali Hazelwood, the latest romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and yes, Rebecca Yarros and Regency favorites like Bridgerton and Outlander, plus all the really steamy stuff. Whatever you're looking for, you can find the audiobook you will love. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com/happier. Okay, Elizabeth, what have you been meaning to ask me?

[A]

Well, one thing you and I have not talked a lot about is algorithms. And I have been meaning to ask you what you think your algorithm reveals about you. Yeah, I'm not a big TikTok person, but I spend a little time on TikTok. And what is funny is that my TikTok algorithm sends me like videos of Stevie Nicks singing Landslide or occasionally other people singing Landslide.

[B]

Wow, that is specific. Yes, that is very specific.

[A]

It sends me different stylists with tips about sort of what's in and what's out, or how to figure out proportions of clothes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then different people talking about reality tv. So some reality TV stars and clips of their podcasts or whatnot. And sometimes it's commentators or ex producers talking about the secrets of reality tv. So it's just funny to me that this is what I'm fed and then of course corgi content as well comes through. But I'm like, this does say a lot about me. Like, I can't argue with that algorithm.

[B]

We say like, if you want to know yourself better, consider your schedule, consider your spending, consider your surroundings. Because all of these things will reflect you back to you. You know, something's important to you if it's in your schedule or if you're spending money on it or if it's reflecting in your surroundings. This is another way where sometimes it's hard to know ourselves directly. And this is a mirror that's being held up to you because I think it's hard to remember that not everybody is seeing the same thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It feels like it's just a broadcast. Like everybody gets the A and E channel or whatever. And you're like, no, they don't. So this is what I get. I get a lot of things that are like interesting historical facts, quirky facts, and often about New York City, like, here's a Photograph of the first typewriter or something like that. I get stuff where they're showing how to use furniture that's meant to let people with very small New York City apart. Well, very small apartments in any city make more of their space. So it's like this looks like a bookcase, but if you fold it down, it's a bed. And then it also turns into a desk. And then if you slide this thing sideways, it opens up into. You know, I just find that fascinating. Just the cleverness of them. Or like it's a table and it's this and it's this and it's this. And it also is a laundry machine and dog training tips.

[A]

So it's funny because one thing that I've realized, and I think this is actually a good happiness hack, I make a point of not clicking on anything that I know could lead to a rabbit hole of sort of negativity. So maybe I'm tempted to click on this political thing or something. But when there's an algorithm involved, I try not to, because then I know it'll send me a lot of that. Whereas I make a point of liking things like Stevie Nicks singing Landslide, because.

[B]

I want to be given that you affirmatively like it. You're not even just pausing on it.

[A]

I put a heart.

[B]

If you actually really like it, you put a heart.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So this is good. So you were. You're steering the algorithm. You're not letting. Because I just sort of let it pour over me. I haven't done either of those things.

[A]

Because there's times when I have, for interest's sake, been like, oh, let me look at this, this is interesting. And then suddenly that I get a rush of that thing, which I didn't want.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I really do try to be aware. The other funny thing, Gretch, I get is home goods. What somebody would or would not buy at home goods, decorators. And that's endlessly fascinating.

[B]

Well, it does reveal something about you when you're just like, all things being equal. I would really like to watch this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, I think you can in and change your settings if you don't like what you're getting. Or, like, you can change your ad preferences and things. So, I mean, this is a good example of we can be passive recipients of what's served up to us, even though we are sort of directing it with our attention, because it's paying attention to what we're lingering on. So we feel like we're not directing it, but we are directing it. Or we can Actively direct it the way you're doing it. I think that's a much better idea, which is, I really like Landslide. Give me more of that. And then I'm gonna make sure that I am shaping what I see. The thing is, lately I've been thinking a lot about the phrase furnish my brain. I wanna furnish my brain. What is college for? College is to furnish your brain. Why do I travel? I travel to furnish my brain. Like, you have to get stuff in your brain.

[A]

That's a big idea.

[B]

And the thing is, with all this social media is, like. It is furnishing our brain. It's putting stuff into our heads. And we want to be mindful of that.

[A]

Yeah, we really do. Now, I will say, Gretch, whenever I'm missing New York, I'll go for the New York State of Mind videos. And then I'll get a rush of those. So that's how I know I'm missing New York as I start getting into the New York State of Mind.

[B]

But it's funny, though, because sometimes I'll see a lot of something, and I've been looking at it, so I clearly seem like I like it, but then it just vanishes. Like, there was a time where I was seeing clips, very, very short clips from old movies, like movies that I had never seen, where they were breaking into song or breaking into a dance or they had beautiful costumes or something. It's kind of that old, glamorous days when they first had color in movies and it was all fabulous, but then it all just went away. I don't know what happened.

[A]

Well, I'm sure there are also forces at work here that we do not understand and would not be happy about if we did.

[B]

Probably not.

[A]

But it is interesting and it can bring you down, lift you up, so it is worth thinking about.

[B]

Okay, last question. Elizabeth, has your algorithm served you up the clip of Mary Tyler Moore accidentally making an incredibly advanced trick shot during a random taping of the Dick Van Dyke Show?

[A]

I have not gotten that, but I want that.

[B]

I've gotten that, like, 10 times, and I watch it every time.

[A]

Yes. Never gets old.

[B]

It makes me very happy. Like, they just filmed it. And she was as astonished as anybody and looked very, very Smile.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

Love, Mary Tyler.

[A]

More amazing. Okay, Gretch, what is our secret of adulthood this week?

[B]

So I wrote this book, Secrets of Adulthood. It's all these secrets of adulthood. I quote them all the time to myself and to other people, being the happiness bully that I am. But one thing that's interesting to me is what sticks. What do people quote back to me or what do they invoke in conversation? And I will say just in my own little experience, just the people around me, the secret of adulthood that I wrote that people most often say is something that can happen at any time often happens at no time. This seems to be something that people really get. And I think it's really true because often, even if it's something that you really, really want to do, if you can do it at any time, time just ends up passing and you don't do it. But it's just interesting to me that of everything that I wrote, that seems to be one of the ones that leaps out.

[A]

Well, I say it all the time, Gretchen. I mean, it resonates with me. I say it in my life. Sarah and I are always saying it on the podcast or to each other. I think it really resonates well.

[B]

And it's helpful because if there's something that's important to you to get done, you just have to even arbitrarily or like find a reason. If you don't like questioners, I know you don't like arbitrary find a reason why something needs to be done at a certain time. I think that's part of what's good about like a 25 for 25 list. You could do these things at any time. But now you're saying, okay, I'm going to try to do it in 2025. So that's good. Well, I'm glad that it stuck with you. I mean, Eleanor just quoted it to me yesterday and I was like, oh, she is listening. That's nice. So Elizabeth, are you feeling happier?

[A]

Yes, I am feeling happier. Thank you to Chuck. And if you haven't subscribed the Lemonada Premium, now is the perfect time. You get to listen ad free. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or go to lemonada premium.com to subscribe on any other app. Bye Gretch.

[B]

Bye Elizabeth. The best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now because something that can happen at any time often happens at no time. Elizabeth, I love this idea of using the algorithm as manifested self expression. I think that this could be a really good know yourself better exercise which is just look at your algorithm and write down. I mean you listed like three things but to really look. I think that would be very revealing.

[A]

Yes, it really boils a person down.

[B]

In kind of a frightening way from the onward project.

[A]

Hi Gretchen, Craig Robinson and my little sister Michelle here we host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions?

[B]

Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me? Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition. For more great advice, search for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Wherever you get podcasts, you can listen to Issa Rae on letting go of certain friendships, Keke Palmer on why disappointment is actually the key to career success, Seth and Lauren Rogan on caring for aging parents and so many more.