← Happier with Gretchen Rubin
Happier with Gretchen Rubin
More Happier: Friendship Roundtable: How to Make, Keep & Deepen Friendships
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- [00:00]
Gretchen Rubin
Gretchen, I have always loved water slides. And at Great Wolf Lodge, you can take your whole family on an unforgettable adventure with lots of water slides.
- [00:12]
Lori Santos
They've also got high flying ropes courses, miniature golf, climbing walls, mini bowling, virtual reality rooms, and a massive arcade. That's just some of the things that everybody in the whole family can do. So bring your pack together and wolf out. Learn more@greatwolf.com greatwolf.com book now and strengthen your pack at Great Wolf Lodge.
- [00:36]
Gretchen Rubin
Gretch, you and I both love Whole Foods Market, and as the weather gets warmer, we want to have some lighter meals. Well, Whole Foods Market has what you're looking for with great everyday prices.
- [00:49]
Lori Santos
At Whole Foods Market, you can save every day. Look for the yellow low price signs that help you save money without compromising the quality you expect from Whole Foods Market. Find them with their responsibly farmed Atlantic salmon, no antibiotics ever, ground beef, and boneless skinless chicken breasts, plus more throughout the store. Yellow really means savings at Whole Food Market because their sale signs are also yellow. So basically, whenever you see yellow, you know you're saving money. Save on the best of spring with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market.
- [01:21]
Reshma Saujani
Lemonada.
- [01:37]
Lori Santos
Hello, we're here for More Happier, a podcast where we get more of the happier podcast. Today we've got a very special edition of More Happier. It's the first of a new series of round tables where where I'll invite people to come in to discuss all different subjects that contribute to happiness. First up, friendships. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. And hey, I might have even made a new friend in the process because friendship is such a huge element to a happier life. It is a great subject for a roundtable discussion to go deeper. And three of us are here today to talk about friendship. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, human nature and friendship. And I am the host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. And also here today is Lori Santos. Laurie is a professor at Yale University where she has taught the most popular course in Yale history, psychology and the good life. And she's also host of the Happiness Lab podcast, a terrific podcast that helps listeners improve their well being with the science of happiness. Hello, Laurie.
- [02:49]
Reshma Saujani
Hey, Gretchen. Thanks so much for having me on the show. This roundtable is fun and we'll build our own friendship.
- [02:53]
Lori Santos
We'll build our own friendship. There you go. And we are also here with Reshma Sajani. Reshma is the founder of successful nonprofits Girls who Code and Moms first and the bestselling author of books including Pay Up, Brave, Not Perfect and the Girls who Code book series. She is host of the terrific podcast My so Called Midlife, where she tackles the question, she's gotten everything she's ever wanted, so why does she feel so unsatisfied? Hello, Reshma.
- [03:23]
Lemonada
Hi, Gretchen. So great to be here.
- [03:25]
Lori Santos
This is going to be such a fun conversation. Okay, so friendship. Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that relationships are a key element to a happy life. And friendship is certainly an extraordinarily important form of relationship. Lately, I have been going through the empty nest phase of life, which I'm rebranding as the open door phase of life. And one thing that I noticed is, is how sometimes in this stage, people realize that they've been confusing friends with acquaintances. Like, they thought they had friends, but they really just had friendly acquaintances. And as I started talking more and more about friendship, I could see that people were really fired up about this subject. People really understand how important it is. And we're recording this in Women's History Month. And while friendships are certainly not exclusive to women, there is something kind of special about women's friendships. And so I'm so excited to talk to you both about friendship.
- [04:18]
Lemonada
Yes.
- [04:19]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah, this is gonna be awesome.
- [04:20]
Lori Santos
Excellent. So let's talk about friendship. In your own life, have there been any special steps that you have taken in your own life to either strengthen existing friendships or to create new friendships? I mean, because what is it? Make new friends but keep the old. One is silver, the other is gold. What have you done in your own life toward this aim? Loreal, let me ask you first.
- [04:41]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I was so excited to have this conversation is I feel like this is something I've been thinking about a lot.
- [04:47]
Lori Santos
Right.
- [04:48]
Reshma Saujani
You know, I went through this period of feeling super burned out. And one of the things I recognized during that period was that, like, I hadn't been investing enough time in my friendships. I too, felt like I had a lot of these, like, so called relational friendships where it's like, you know, maybe I would see somebody at work or we were just kind of friends because we happened, you know, my husband happened to know his partner or something like that. And like, it was. I was finding that I just, like, didn't have the close connections that I thought. And so, you know, like a dutiful, like, happiness scientist that I am, I was like, I'm gonna go about making friends.
- [05:16]
Lori Santos
I'm putting it in the lab.
- [05:18]
Reshma Saujani
Putting it in the lab, right? Like, but it's hard. It's hard in midlife, I think for lots of reasons. Right. One is that we're all so busy.
- [05:25]
Lori Santos
Right.
- [05:26]
Reshma Saujani
It wasn't the ease with which I made friendships with people. Say like in college or something like that, where you're naturally running into each other. You meet someone at your yoga class, or I have this sort of movie night that I go to. You meet friends there, and it's like you actually have to put something in the calendar. And that can be kind of protective, prohibitively taxing. But having put some effort into this, I can say that it is possible in midlife to make new friends. But it does feel like it takes some energy and some work.
- [05:50]
Lori Santos
And was there anything specific you tried?
- [05:53]
Reshma Saujani
I think it's like putting yourself out there and offering, like, you have to be the one that says, like, hey, maybe we should go on a coffee date, or maybe we should go shopping together, or maybe we should go see this movie together. What I did find though, is that if you can kind of get through the hurdle of like figuring out everybody's collective schedules, people are usually really into it. Like, my experience has been, like, when. When you kind of push people to, like, take the friendship, a next step, most people are kind of into that. It's just like, we're all so busy, it can be hard to get things on a calendar.
- [06:20]
Lori Santos
Well. And I know that there's research showing that, like, people really do value relationships. And even though you can feel sort of awkward or self conscious by making that gesture to go deeper with a friendship, usually people are very welcome of it. Like, if you want to be friends, probably they want to be friends. And that's kind of comforting to remember.
- [06:35]
Reshma Saujani
Totally. And I think this is a whole set of biases that I think if we're talking about friendship, we need to acknowledge, which is that our minds kind of suck when it comes to thinking about friendships. Like, we just have these biases that lead us towards anti friendship or under sociality, as the researcher Nick Epley calls it. One of my favorite ones is this effect called the liking gap, which is just like you assume that everybody in your life, from your best, best ride or die bestie to the person that you chat with occasionally at the coffee shop, you assume that that person likes you less than that person actually likes you. The liking gap is like such a sad series of studies because they find that even college roommates, your college roommate that you've lived with for a year, if you ask how much does your college roommate like you, a person will Say, well, they like me. You like only so.
- [07:20]
Lori Santos
So.
- [07:20]
Reshma Saujani
Whereas the college roommate's like, oh my gosh, I love them so much.
- [07:22]
Lemonada
That's so interesting.
- [07:23]
Reshma Saujani
It's like systematically pushing us. Yeah. Systematically pushing us towards less friendship. Which is, which is terrible. Our minds shouldn't work that way.
- [07:31]
Lori Santos
Yeah. It's reassuring to remember that though. That's helpful, Ned. How about you, Reshma? What have you done to strengthen or build relationships?
- [07:39]
Lemonada
God. I mean, as Laurie's talking, I have so many thoughts. I mean, well, first of all, I always had a tight crew of friends. And so I have been someone who you know, spends my life being extrovert, as both of you understand. And so like, I like keeping it tight and small and I like being able to just, you know, when I have dinner with a friend or we go on a girls trips, like we're just talking about gossip, about celebrity gossip or about nothing. Like it's just not serious. We're not talking about jobs, we're not talking about like what we want to change that I should spend my whole life doing that. So I'm a really good friend. Like I pride myself on it, right?
- [08:17]
Lori Santos
Oh, so that's part of your identity?
- [08:19]
Lemonada
Yeah. Like I feel like ironically, even though I might be the busiest out of all my friends, like I'm the 3am phone call, right? I'm the friend. When you're going through substance abuse, that is there, right? Like I. I'm that friend. And so I think in order for me to be a good friend, I always kept my friendship circle really small, but my acquaintance pool very large, right. So I have a drink with you, right. You know what I mean? We'll catch up. But I'm not going to tell you all my secrets, right. Or like we're not, you know, we're not going to get there because I just don't think then I have the can. Can give that way. So I think one that's always been really important to me. So one of the reasons why I wanted to really start looking at midlife is in midlife things change and even people you've been friends with for 20 years change and there's breakups and if you're somebody that like has kept your crew tight, that's really hard. I think the second thing is, is that living in New York, everybody leaves. So all of a sudden, right. I feel like I found myself when my kids were really young, like, oh my God, I got too many people I got to have dinner with or see a Broadway show with or do this Thing with to all of a sudden like looking at my 10 year old being like, what are you doing tonight? You want to watch a movie, right? Like, everything shifted because nobody was there left and I had not learned. And I still don't know. I still don't, I still don't know how to make new friends. I really struggle. I can make a lot of acquaintances, but I really struggle with new friends. And if I was honest too, I just also like had a little bit of judgment around it. And I remember I was reading my mentor Hillary Clinton's book and she wrote in there like that she makes a new friend every year. And I was like, really? Like, if Hillary can make new friend every year, then I should be able to make a new friend. You know what I mean? Every year. So that was a big eye opener for me.
- [10:06]
Lori Santos
Let me ask you a quick question. When you say you keep it tight, like what is that number? I'm just curious, like, is that 3? Is that 10?
- [10:12]
Lemonada
It's under. It's under. I would say it's under. Under 7, under 8.
- [10:18]
Reshma Saujani
All of Rushma's friends listening right now are like, they're like, am I one of the seven?
- [10:32]
Lori Santos
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- [11:11]
Gretchen Rubin
IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and happier with Gretchen Rubin. Listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com happier visit ixl.com happier to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. So, Gretch, as the weather gets warmer, I think a lot of us want to eat lighter meals. And Whole Foods Market has what you're looking for with great everyday prices. I love their 365 by Whole Foods Market brand. It's their house brand and it has tons of spring essentials at daily low prices that will really put a little spark to Your plate, they have brunch classics like juice, organic bag salad kits. You know, I love a salad kit, smoked salmon, goat cheese and sandwich bread. Plus smoothie ingredients like almond milk and organic frozen fruit blends, which I love to use for Jackson smoothies.
- [12:20]
Lori Santos
At Whole Foods Market, you can save every day. Look for the yellow low price signs that help you save money without compromising the quality you expect from Whole Foods Market. Find them with their responsibly farmed Atlantic salmon, no antibiotics ever, ground beef, and boneless skinless chicken breasts, plus more throughout the store. Yellow really means savings at Whole Foods Market because their sale signs are also yellow. So basically, wherever you see yellow, you know you're saving money. Save on the best of spring with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market. I think that there are many different types of friendship, maybe more than people say. Like, I think sometimes it's like, are you friends or are you not friends or. It's interesting, Reshma, you were saying you'd have your tight, close friends and then you have your acquaintances. And to me it seems like maybe it's good to think about different categories, all of whom maybe add to our life in a different way. And also, like you say, have different levels of responsibility and like, intimacy that we, that we bring to it and that we expect from it. But they can all add. But before we get into sort of our own colloquial sense of all these different kinds of friends, Laurie, what is the research showing about types of friendship as we're thinking this through?
- [13:28]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah. What's the science say? I mean, I guess a couple things. I mean, one is what the science really clearly shows is that like, any kind of social connection is good. Right?
- [13:36]
Lori Santos
I mean, barista.
- [13:37]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah, barista at the coffee shop, chat with the person on the train. All of that's good, Right? And so I think overall, what the research is trying to do is to categorize those forms of social connection. And so often researchers break up different kinds of ways that we could connect to other people in terms of three different categories. They call them intimate kind of friendships, relational friends, and sort of communal friends. And so the intimate one, it doesn't mean like intimate in a, like romantic, intimate sense. It means kind of. I think what Reshma is getting at, like you're Ryan or dynamic, your crew, like the 3:00am Everything. Exactly right. The relational friends are the ones that you, like, do stuff with, you know, so you might like, grab a glass of wine, you might go see a movie, and it's like a one on one thing, but they're not the 3am call in the same way. Gretchen, I think this is what you were getting at when you were saying that like when your kids move away, you realize a lot of people are in that relational category, but maybe not the intimate category. Right. But there's another domain that I think we often forget, which is a sort of communal or kind of community friends. And this is like your book club, like the crew of people you go to Pilates with or your church group. Right. Like this is like a group of people, parents, parents in like your kids class. Like the soccer moms that you see like, you know, on the field. Right. And those are sometimes the people that we can see most often depending on, on what those like community events are, they might be our most frequent other friends. And they're really good for kind of having these shared values and these shared activities. But again, they're a little bit different than the other ones. You might not with the soccer mom unless you take it to a new level. It's definitely not gonna be a 3am call, but it might not even be the go to the movie together.
- [15:10]
Lori Santos
But it could be the first step toward an intimate friend. It could be a starter. It might have the capacity or the possibility of going further. Even if it's not, then if you wanna build a friend, like Reshma was saying, it's hard to make new friends. Maybe that's a place to find new.
- [15:24]
Reshma Saujani
Friends because you have to have some sort of connection with people to like move them from the categories. And I think it just takes some work.
- [15:32]
Lori Santos
Right?
- [15:32]
Reshma Saujani
You have to be at on the soccer field with the mom and be like, hey, do you want to get a coffee later outside the soccer field? Or do you want to go get a movie or share something together? And again, that feels vulnerable. Like it feels scary to almost ask because the person might be like, no, or I don't have time. And you'll just feel like, ah, I got rejected.
- [15:49]
Lemonada
Lori, where does your work friends go? Because that's the other thing I've found. Like I'm a workaholic. So I find that my work friends are now like my best friends. My teases me is like, it doesn't count if you pay them.
- [16:01]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah.
- [16:01]
Lori Santos
Oh yeah, it's tricky.
- [16:03]
Reshma Saujani
No, I think, I think, I think work friends can be in any of these categories. Right. You know, take the work friend that like you all go to the softball game together. Right. That might feel very communal. Right. If it's a work friend that you occasionally go out to get a drink for but they don't really know any of your, you know, real intimate life or your big secrets. Right. That would probably be more relational. But there are definitely work friends that are the ride or die besties that hear, you know, all. I definitely have had work friends that are my 3:00am call. Right.
- [16:29]
Lori Santos
And so I'm not sure that I think that those three categories are very helpful because it almost makes them feel like they're in a hierarchy. But I feel like it's almost more helpful to think about them as types of friends or the role they play. Like a childhood friend. Yeah, they know us in a way. They know our parents. They know our childhood dog. You know, even if now we're very far apart than them in life. There's something about the childhood friends. Laurie, you mentioned the couple's friends where, you know, you can go out on a double date. There's sort of of a special kind of thing if you travel with people. And that's maybe not even that they're so intimate, but you would travel in the same way. People that you know online.
- [17:08]
Reshma Saujani
Oh, yeah.
- [17:08]
Lori Santos
Does that count? Like, if you haven't met people in real life or, like, people that you've only seen on Zoom? You guys. I mean, what about parasocial relationships? I mean, I bet you all have people who consider you their parasocial friends. Plus, I do. And then I also have my own parasocial friends of people who I listen to. So I don't know. I mean, what other kinds of friends am I missing?
- [17:29]
Reshma Saujani
No, I mean, I think you're totally right that it's super complicated. Although I'll push back on the idea that those three categories I gave are hierarchical. I think we kind of need all of them. Right?
- [17:38]
Lori Santos
Well, that's true.
- [17:38]
Reshma Saujani
I definitely have been in situations. And even during my burnout situation, I would describe being in this where I still had my intimate friends. I had my besties that I could call at night, but I had nobody to go to yoga class with. I had nobody to go for a walk with.
- [17:51]
Lori Santos
This has to go with near friends and far friends and. Reshna, this is what you're talking about, is what about when somebody who was a near friend then becomes a far friend? Well, then that completely changes the energy of the relationship.
- [18:03]
Lemonada
Well, this is why I liked your categories, Lori, because it made me feel almost, like, better. Right? Like, I think one of the things that I've had to contend with in midlife is that it's okay if friendships shift. They don't have to be somebody who's Your intimate friend has to be your intimate friend forever. They can then become your relational friend. And that's. That doesn't mean that you failed. Because I think for women in particular, because we take our friendship so seriously, is that it's very hard when they fall apart.
- [18:31]
Reshma Saujani
Right?
- [18:32]
Lemonada
And you're like, I feel like I did something wrong or I should have tried harder. And it's. It's different because it's unlike your parents. Like, no matter what, you're stuck with them.
- [18:42]
Lori Santos
Right.
- [18:42]
Lemonada
Or your siblings. Right. It doesn't matter obligation, what happens to them, whether they turn into an alcoholic or become a raging bitch or, like, you know, I mean, didn't get this. Like, you're, like, stuck with them. Whereas with friendships, especially as you get older, I think people realize, well, I don't have to be in this toxic relationship. Like, I don't have to do this.
- [19:01]
Lori Santos
Have you managed severe strife in a friendship yourself, Reshma?
- [19:04]
Lemonada
I mean, most recently, I've had to contend with a potential breakup, which is the first time that's ever happened to me.
- [19:11]
Lori Santos
Oh, I've never.
- [19:12]
Lemonada
Yeah, it's never happened to me before. But I think part of. Without going into the details right, but part of what I think I realized is that it's okay. And that sometimes people are going through things and you gotta allow there to be some distance, and that doesn't mean it's forever, and that's okay. You know, I think for a lot of us as women, we carry a lot of regret and we carry a lot of envy. A lot of woulda, shoulda, coulda's, you know? And I think the older you get, you realize that, well, that might not happen for me. And I think that that oftentimes breeds a lot of. Of anger. And I think that a lot of people are struggling, as my monk would say, like, a lot of people are really suffering. And friendships used to be the way you healed. Right? Like, you remember that when you would go through a breakup and you'd be, like, devastated, and you just had to sit in a room with your girlfriends and, like, drink a lot of wine and eat a lot of bad food and just cry and watch a movie and, like, it. Just after a week of doing that, you were like, you felt better. That's just French. It's just harder to do that these days because of all the commitments that you have in your life to really use friendship as a tool of healing.
- [20:28]
Lori Santos
Well, so maybe that's a good point, which is that we have to acknowledge that friendship looks different at different Stages of life and not, and again, not feel like a failure if it doesn't look the way that it used to look. You know, if you're not staying up until 2am talking heart to heart with somebody, that doesn't mean that they're not a real true intimate friend the way they might have been.
- [20:50]
Reshma Saujani
Although I think we also have to get other people's definitions of friends. Because some of my friendship strife throughout the years has been realizing that, like, we're just on a different page with how we're defining friendship.
- [21:02]
Lori Santos
Like what? Like what?
- [21:03]
Reshma Saujani
Like, so I had this very close friend still my very close friend. I won't use names, but she'll know I'm talking about her who lived near me in New Haven, like, worked near me at Yale. We were like, you know, besties, besties, tight. And for lots of reasons, she wound up taking a job really far away. And, you know, I was not just sad that my friend was moving away for all the reasons. I felt devastated. Like, I felt like there was like a break to the friendship and she couldn't understand this.
- [21:27]
Lori Santos
She was like, you felt betrayed almost.
- [21:29]
Lemonada
That she took the job.
- [21:30]
Reshma Saujani
That she took the job and I knew the job was right for her. It was like, it was totally the right move. But I had this special sense of betrayal. And it was only through like a long conversation where we. We realized she was like, oh, wait, like definitional to your idea of our friendship is that we hang out in person, see each other at our house, eat meals together, walk her dog together. And she was like, that's not in my definition. Our friendship will be just as good of friends if we do all that same stuff on the phone or over zoom or once a month. And that conversation, I think, really helped both of us because it was like, oh, under your definition, this isn't a friend breakup to you in the same way it's sort of feeling to me. And that just caused me to realize, like, oh, we all have these different definitions. You know, if you don't, maybe your definition includes, like, if you don't spend your birthday with me, then we're not a good friend. Or if, like, you know, if we don't give gifts to each other at Christmas or we don't celebrate our kids birthdays. I think we all have these kind of seated, intricate ideas of what matters for friendships that we haven't told our friends.
- [22:30]
Lori Santos
Right?
- [22:30]
Reshma Saujani
So our friends sometimes wind up violating these without. Without realizing they're doing that.
- [22:34]
Lori Santos
That is a really good point.
- [22:35]
Lemonada
And like, life, maturity, right? Because I think as you grow, you have more responsibilities. You got to take care of your kids or if you have a partner or if you have a, like a, like a challeng. So it's like the time that you can spend is just different. And I think for some people, like, for me, I judge quality of time rather than like the length of time. Like, I'm going on a girls trip with one of my friends tomorrow who, like, lives in Atlanta. And maybe we talk on that. We see each other three times a year, but she is my best friend, right? And we know that we're going to get together for 48 hours and like, it's going to feel like we spent a year together. And like, those are a lot of the, like, you know, the relationships that I have in my life where I don't have to spend all of this time. But it's the quality of time when we're together. We're like super into each other and super engaged and just not like nothing's changed.
- [23:23]
Lori Santos
I would say that I think scheduling is the biggest obstacle in my life to friendship, which is just the sheer nuisance of Are you free? Okay, maybe you live in another country. Are you free that I can call you while I'm on a call in Central park and we can talk by phone?
- [23:40]
Reshma Saujani
Yes.
- [23:40]
Lori Santos
Okay. What? We gotta manage the time difference. Oh, we want to go to Atlanta on a girls trip. I can't do this weekend. What about that weekend? No, this week. Oh, turns out I can't. Can we move it back a week? No, we can't.
- [23:50]
Reshma Saujani
Gretchen. It's like you're in my DMs right now. Yes, I'm turning 50 years old this year.
- [23:57]
Lori Santos
Amazing.
- [23:58]
Reshma Saujani
Yes.
- [23:58]
Lori Santos
Congratulations.
- [23:59]
Reshma Saujani
But maybe you're going through the same thing, Reshma, which is like, my college friends. Like, I have this whole cohort of friends who are also turning 50. And we're like, wouldn't it be great if we could have a birthday party all together? And literally our whole DM is like, what about June? No, my in laws are coming in June. Like, I can't do that. It's like, oh my gosh.
- [24:17]
Lemonada
And then you just give up. You're like, get it?
- [24:19]
Reshma Saujani
That's exactly what's happened in my group thread is like, no one's replied for like the last four days. And I think we're all just like, oh, my God.
- [24:25]
Lemonada
Okay, that's true.
- [24:37]
Gretchen Rubin
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- [25:11]
Lori Santos
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- [25:41]
Gretchen Rubin
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- [25:55]
Lori Santos
The Freestyle Libre 3 sensor can help you live life with diabetes on your terms. This is progress. You can try it for free at freestylelibre.us. offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply for prescription only safety info found @freestylelibre us. Okay, now speaking of the question of understanding friends and maybe holding grace when people bring a different set of expectations or different understandings. Okay, so my four tendencies framework, which is a personality framework that divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. And it has to do with whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations. Outer expectations like a work deadline. Inner expectations like your own desire to keep a New Year's resolution. And I'm just going to go through this super fast. If people want to know more about it, they can just go to GretchenRubin.com quiz and take the quiz and find out if they're an upholder. A questioner. Obliger, Revel. Learn all about it. But just for this, just the nutshell version is upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. So they meet the work deadline. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. Reshma, I know you're an upholder and I'm an upholder. We're a small group. Small but mighty. A bigger group is questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they're turning everything into an inner expectation. So they have to know why. But if they know why and they understand why they can do something. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest group of people for both men and women. This is the largest group. Laurie, you are a proud member of Team Obliger. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So they're really good at keeping their promises to other people, but they struggle to keep their promises to themselves unless they have that outer accountability. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. So these are the people who can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they will resist. And typically they don't tell themselves what to do. So they don't, like, put anything on the calendar. And the reason why I think the four tendencies is helpful for friendship is that I found that now that I understand the four tendencies, I'm much more understanding of how different people are different and bring a different energy into relationships. For instance, rebels often don't like to put something on the calendar. It makes them feel trapped. They don't like it. So I had a rebel friend who I would try to say something like, hey, do you want to go to a movie on Friday? And she would always just be really evasive. I'd be like, oh, there's this great play. Do you want to see it? And I'm like, does this person not really like me because they don't want to commit to me? But then I'm like, no. Now that I know she's a rebel, it's much better to say something last minute, like, hey, I'm going to be in your neighborhood. If you're going to be around on Saturday afternoon, you want to grab a coffee, you can let me know. I'll just text you when I'm in. I'm outside your door. Because then it's spontaneous and she can do whatever she wants. But. So that helped me understand how not to be angry or resentful when people behaved in a certain way. So I don't know. As an obliger or an upholder, have you seen how this might cause conflict or explain things that you've experienced?
- [28:59]
Lemonada
Am I more likely to have a better relationship with someone who is just like me, an upholder, or no?
- [29:04]
Lori Santos
Probably. Yeah, right, because it's like you both are just executing. No, but obligers get along with everybody. Obligers are type O. They're the ones that get along the best with all three tendencies. Yes.
- [29:17]
Reshma Saujani
Except I think. Except, you know, I've always, like, wondered about, you know, the, like, scientific efficacy of the four tendencies.
- [29:24]
Lori Santos
Oh, sure, I know. And Annie Murphy Paul, who studies personality frameworks. Yes.
- [29:28]
Reshma Saujani
But there is deep truth into one part of the Obliger personality type that you've talked about, which is this phenomena that you've called Obliger Rebellion, which is when the obligers have too many external demands on their time, sometimes they're just like, eff it, I'm out. I'm giving up on everyone. And definitely, I have been in that mode before. And the sad thing is, sometimes what has to give is stuff with my friends for which I'm really embarrassed. Right. I'm kind of like, oh, my gosh, I'm overwhelmed for everything. But I don't quit my podcasting job or not show up for my teaching gig. But that yoga session I was gonna have with a friend, hey, can we do that another time? I'll switch it up. Or that call that I know I was gonna put out for a friend who was grieving, that kind of falls by the wayside.
- [30:14]
Lemonada
That's interesting.
- [30:15]
Lori Santos
And I think this is a perfect example. If I'm your friend and I know you're Obliger, and I see Obliger Rebellion, I feel like the burning resentment and the burnout and the overwhelm happening. I can say things to you so that you don't feel like I'm putting pressure on you.
- [30:28]
Reshma Saujani
Yes, exactly.
- [30:30]
Lori Santos
You know, like, hey, you know, you've got so much going on. I know we talked about doing it this weekend, but maybe we should push it to next month when the dust settles.
- [30:37]
Reshma Saujani
Oh, my gosh, Gretchen, you just saying that. I feel like the weight on my chest was like, okay, that's great. Yeah.
- [30:43]
Lemonada
You don't feel like it's personal? You don't feel like it's personal.
- [30:47]
Lori Santos
Yeah.
- [30:48]
Lemonada
And so for. I think for an upholder, I don't have those problems because I'm so disciplined and so scheduled that I'm like, I immediately think it's personal.
- [30:59]
Lori Santos
Right. Like, if you dropped the ball on me, why, you must have chosen.
- [31:03]
Lemonada
You must have not thought that I was. You must have looked through your calendar. I'm like, well, she's not important, so I'm going to cancel that.
- [31:09]
Lori Santos
Or if somebody. If you say to a friend, oh, well, you know, I'm going to be free Saturday afternoon five weeks from now at 2pm and somebody's like, well, I don't really Want to commit. And you're like, what's your problem? Let's put this on the calendar so that it happens. If you're important to me and I'm important to you, there's a place on the calendar for that. And other people are like, you're bananas for scheduling out your life, you know, five weeks in a day. Yeah.
- [31:32]
Reshma Saujani
As someone who's close friends with a few different rebels, that.
- [31:35]
Lori Santos
Yeah, it doesn't work.
- [31:36]
Reshma Saujani
It doesn't work.
- [31:37]
Lemonada
It doesn't work. So I guess in midlife, though, should we just make friends with people like us? Cause it's easier.
- [31:42]
Reshma Saujani
No. You get so much out of friendships with people who are different than you.
- [31:46]
Lori Santos
Well, and I'm married to a question, and it's super valuable because I always have his voice in my head being like, why are you gonna do that? Because as an upholder, my tendency is like, okay, we'll do. And I think it gives you a grace for understanding how people are just bringing a completely different perspective in. So then the last thing I wanna ask, and this is a really fun question, which. Do you have a try this at home suggestion for listeners? Is there something that a person could do as part of their ordinary day to either deepen existing friendships or build towards new friendships? Because we've talked about both. And you sort of have to maintain and cultivate both, which sounds like a lot of work and a lot of time, which we do not have.
- [32:27]
Reshma Saujani
Yes.
- [32:28]
Lori Santos
But what are some simple, easy things that we can incorporate?
- [32:31]
Lemonada
I got one. Like, Like. So my friend Tiffany Dufou taught me this.
- [32:34]
Lori Santos
I think, you know, why not Tiffany, she's an obliger.
- [32:39]
Lemonada
I can see that. So she. Well, then this is an interesting story. So she was telling a story how she had, you know, she had a girls trip planned. And her daughter Kua said to her, oh, mom, you know, I need you this weekend.
- [32:51]
Lori Santos
Ooh. Okay. Lori, as an obliger, is that pushing all your buttons?
- [32:56]
Lemonada
Yeah, it's like, I need you this weekend. It's really important. And Tiffany thought about it and she looked at her and she said, no, I'm gonna go on my girls trip. Because if I don't show you that I'm gonna put myself first, then you are never gonna learn that that's important to do that. And so I think the take home that I would say to all of us is we all need to do that. Because it's often the girls trip that gets canceled. It's often the dinner with friends that gets canceled. It's often our friendships Right. That take the backseat to like everyone else's needs. And we know. No, no, no. That when you die, the thing that mattered the most was your friendships and your relationship. So like that can't be in the back. So I think every time we feel that push and pull, pick friendship.
- [33:40]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah, love that. Love that suggestion.
- [33:42]
Lori Santos
And can you think of an example in your own life where you had to have that struggle in your own mind of. Part of me wants to keep working or buckle down or go to sleep early.
- [33:52]
Lemonada
I mean all the time. I have like a 5 and a 10 year old who are. Are two boys who make me feel guilty every single minute. I could be around them all day long. Like, where are you going? I'm going to Miami with my girlfriend Deepa tomorrow. And my son pouted all the way to school when he realized that I was leaving the next day. So I think like, mom, guilt is real and it is a constant exercise, you know, I mean, that I know that I have to go through. And one of the things though, it has taught me, though, Gretchen and I've really been thinking about this. I remember, or I go to a conference and I would tell a story about that, that my son was upset that I was leaving and the women in the room would say, well, don't worry, Reshma, because he's not going to remember. And I remember thinking to myself, but I'm going to remember.
- [34:32]
Lori Santos
Oh yeah.
- [34:33]
Lemonada
So I think it's really important to figure out what you want and what makes you happy. And it was interesting, Lori, as I was listening to you, I cancel other things before my friends. I need to be with friends. I need that. That girls trip, that dinner, that plate. Like I need my. My girl time.
- [34:52]
Reshma Saujani
Well, as Gretchen will tell you, oblige. A rebellion is not the most rational state to be in when you hit that point, unfortunately. But yes. Yeah.
- [35:00]
Lori Santos
But it's interesting that you articulate it for yourself in that way and I think that's helpful. Like my identity is, I am a good friend. I show up. And when I'm weighing this versus that, friendship prevails. Like I always say to myself when I'm trying to think of how to spend my precious time, energy or money, I should always try to spend it on relationships. And that's just like a heuristic that helps me. Like, should I pay to go to my college reunion and deal with the hassle of making the things? Or should I stay on that really tiresome text chain? Or like you were saying, Lori, are you the one that has to Bear the awkwardness of the first. Want to get a copy where you feel like, oh, my gosh, this feels so silly. So that's. I think that's a really great thing. And I think just being really spelling that out for ourselves, being very explicit is very helpful. And how about you, Lori? What would you say?
- [35:52]
Reshma Saujani
So mine that I've been really trying to act on myself lately is remembering that we're biased when it comes to, like, connecting with other people. Right. So I often am just going through the day and we'll have thoughts about friends. Like, yesterday I was carrying a bag that a friend of mine picked up on her trip to Africa. It's this very pretty, like, blue, kind of like grocery bag thing. And I was just using it to carry something. And I just had a positive thought about my friend. Right. What we normally do is just keep those positive thoughts to ourself. But of course, I could have just, like, text her and be like, hey, have your bag today. Still enjoying it? Just thinking of you.
- [36:22]
Lori Santos
Or like, just even sending a photo of you holding the bag.
- [36:24]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah, me with the bag. I'm still using it. Yeah. And so this is something I've tried to do a lot more when I have a positive thought about a friend, whether that's a memory or especially a gift that someone gave you, often you're still enjoying the gift that someone gave you and noticing it. But you never, like, remind people, you.
- [36:40]
Lori Santos
Know, like a mug they gave you or something.
- [36:43]
Reshma Saujani
Exactly. And in fact, I did. I did just this, this week with a friend of mine who literally gave me a mug that I was like, I'm enjoying your mug this morning. And it caused a conversation with a friend I hadn't connected with. And she was like, oh, that's so nice to hear this morning. Because I'm right now sitting in palliative care with my father who's not doing well. And then I knew about, and had I not texted her about the mug, I wouldn't have known that situation. And so. So whenever you have an urge to give a compliment, a moment of gratitude, a memory thinking of you, just send the text, just put in the call, just drop it in the email. You feel like they won't notice. It won't matter to them. But there's literally studies on this that shows, no, it matters more than you think. It's less awkward than you think. It means more to the person than you think. Our biases mean we, like, under reach out. But that moment of check in, especially that story, I wouldn't have known that something bad was happening in her life. And now I can check in and we can reconnect, and I can be there to help in a way that I'm so happy I get to do that.
- [37:41]
Lori Santos
Right.
- [37:42]
Lemonada
I love that.
- [37:43]
Lori Santos
One way that I do that is I'll often, in an idle moment, go back. I'm always sort of interested in, like, what was happening this day eight years ago or whatever. And it'll often surface a picture of a friend or something that we shared, and I'll just send it to them. And I usually just say flashback. I don't even. I don't even. I can't even be bothered to type a caption, you know, but again, I think it is the idea that you're present in someone else's consciousness.
- [38:09]
Reshma Saujani
Yes.
- [38:09]
Lori Santos
They're thinking of you. They're remembering you. Or like, oh, some. The sequel to a movie you saw together. Like something even from the news or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [38:21]
Lemonada
Because people are going through things, so many things, and I think knowing that someone may be thinking about them, it's just. It can shift their whole day.
- [38:29]
Reshma Saujani
So.
- [38:29]
Lori Santos
Yes, completely. Well, and maybe that's a good thing to remember, which is we think about how the friendships strengthen us and make us happier. But then you also think, well, but they're being made happier. The friend in palliative care, you didn't even think of it, but you're making that person happier. And so when you're planning your trip to Atlanta, you're happier, but then your friend is happier too. And so it's easy to sort of think about, how is this boosting my happiness? But of course, there's more than one person involved.
- [38:58]
Reshma Saujani
And usually your perspective is wrong. Right. Like, when I'm thinking like, oh, I'll text my friend, because using her bag and really appreciating it, I'm thinking like, well, how's that gonna. But of course, she's on the other end, and it's gonna hit her totally different. She's in the middle of some random Wednesday and whatever stressor, and she gets this happy text. Right. That's the surprise, which I didn't feel when I was planning it, but she feels it on the recipient end. And there's like, you know, just like this warm glow that people think about.
- [39:24]
Lemonada
It's beautiful.
- [39:26]
Reshma Saujani
This is something else that some of the research shows that I've always tried to take to heart. This is work by Nick Epley and his colleagues. He finds that when we're thinking about reaching out to someone, we tend to Focus on what he calls our competency. Am I going to write the right text? Do I have time to not just put, like, flashback and write the whole thing? Right? Am I saying it right? You know, that's what we focus on. But our recipient doesn't see any of that. They tend to just focus on the warmth of it. Like, it's out of nowhere. This person thought of me. It made me feel good. Right. And so sometimes our ability to do something nice for our friends gets stuck in the competency part. Here's just another example. I had a friend who is just. He and his wife just had a new baby, and I was like, oh, my gosh. It's been around since my friends were having newborns. Like, what do you do? Like, oh, you send food. Like, how do you send food? Or whatever. And I was all up in my head about, do you send lasagna? Do they like lasagna? Should I eat granola? I don't know. And then I was thinking back to Nick's research, and it was like, wait, they're not gonna think about any of that. They're not gonna analyze, like, that kind of lasagna. They're just gonna be like, oh, my gosh. Laurie, out of the blue, sent me this nice thing that's so nice. And so the idea is, like, whenever you get an herbal to do something nice or to connect, don't overanalyze. They're not gonna notice that. Just dive in and do it however you do it. It will feel good to them.
- [40:34]
Lemonada
Yeah. The other thing is, you guys are talking. I think it's also great role modeling for our kids. Like, both me and my husband, like, really value friendships. People are always in our house, like, you know what I mean? And it's good, especially when you see how much more isolated children are becoming now because of technology. And that when we're making the effort to go have dinner with people or go to the next game with somebody or go on vacation with somebody, it's just good role modeling, too.
- [40:59]
Lori Santos
Yeah. No, they see that you have a book group. They see that you're going out with. Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. That you're going to birthday parties. You're having a birthday party.
- [41:07]
Reshma Saujani
It also just makes adult life look less miserable than when we're not, like, having fun with other people. I think a lot of times kids are like, man, adult life is, like, terrible. But, like, when they see us going on a trip to Miami with our girlfriends or having that book club, it's like, oh, it's much more palatable than I thought.
- [41:23]
Lori Santos
Yes, exactly. Well, listen, this is so much fun. Lori Reshma, thank you for talking friendship with me. I feel. I feel elevated just having this conversation.
- [41:34]
Reshma Saujani
Thanks so much for having us on the show.
- [41:36]
Lemonada
This was so much fun. And we're new friends now.
- [41:38]
Lori Santos
Yeah, we're new friends now. Yay.
- [41:40]
Reshma Saujani
Miami trip next week.
- [41:41]
Lori Santos
That's right. That's right. Let's do it. Well, we hope you're feeling happier after this episode. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. From the Onward Progress project.
- [42:24]
Reshma Saujani
On Death, Sex and Money, we feature interviews with you, our community of listeners, getting honest about uncomfortable things.
- [42:32]
Lori Santos
I developed an illness where it isn't.
- [42:34]
Reshma Saujani
Safe for me to drive.
- [42:35]
Lori Santos
A friend once said to me, sex is like air.
- [42:38]
Reshma Saujani
You don't think about it until you're not getting enough.
- [42:41]
Lori Santos
This is a similar sort of thing.
- [42:43]
Reshma Saujani
If you just replace sex with driving. Listen to Death, Sex and Money wherever you get podcasts.