← Happier with Gretchen Rubin
Happier with Gretchen Rubin
More Happier: No “Guilty” Pleasures & Returning to the Treadmill Desk
00:25:03
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- [00:01]
Elizabeth
Let's talk about the Defender 110. It is a vehicle built for the modern explorer Gretch. I have a friend who's extremely adventurous and she loves her Defender 110. It's a vehicle that looks tough because it is tough. The Defender boasts an exterior design for optimum durability. It has a raised hood and sculpted grille that give the Defender 110amodern edge.
- [00:26]
Gretchen
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- [01:48]
Elizabeth
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- [01:59]
Gretchen
That's wherefigs.com code FIGS R X for 15% off your first order.
- [02:09]
Elizabeth
Lemonade hello.
- [02:19]
Gretchen
We'Re here for More Happier, a podcast where we get happier. Join us for some weekend listening. It's more observations and reflections with a little bit of a looser weekend vibe. Hey Elizabeth.
- [02:31]
Elizabeth
Hey Gretch.
- [02:32]
Gretchen
Today we'll talk about loving something without judgment, and we go deeper on the psychology of the treadmill desk. But first, something making us happier. Elizabeth, what's making you happier?
- [02:43]
Elizabeth
Gretch what's making me happier is the short trip that we both took to Kansas City last weekend?
- [02:50]
Gretchen
Yes, we did.
- [02:52]
Elizabeth
I saw Eliza. She was in town, and we were taking her out to dinner, and she mentioned that you guys had just decided to go to Kansas City. And I said, oh, well, when are you going? Maybe I'll hop on your trip. Because, remember, I talked about giving myself a demerit because I couldn't figure out any dates for Kansas City. My brain wasn't working, so I said, okay, forget it. I'm not going to try. I'm just going to jump on Gretchen's trip. And it was, of course, so much fun, as Kansas City always is. I mean, to me, summer is Kansas City. The air in Kansas City is what I associate with summer, that we didn't.
- [03:28]
Gretchen
Have cicadas, because usually we go in August and in June, they didn't have the cicadas. So that was the one thing that was a little different. You know, Elizabeth, it was so great that you came. And it is interesting. Like, sometimes the hardest part is just the decision fatigue. And so when you were just, okay, I'm just going to do whatever they're doing, then it's just a yes or no. Can I do it or not?
- [03:48]
Elizabeth
Yeah, Gretch, the funny thing is because I just hopped on your trip and I just booked a ticket really fast. I didn't think to look at my calendar and see what else I had. So I ended up having to shift around a lot of stuff because it turned out I had a lot. But you know what? I was glad I didn't see it, because it might have kept me from making the plan.
- [04:07]
Gretchen
Oh, wow.
- [04:08]
Elizabeth
But it was kind of amusing that I didn't even check my calendar.
- [04:11]
Gretchen
You're just like, this is happening. That is funny. Well, and, you know, we used to think that if we were gonna go to Kansas City, it's like, oh, you have to go for many, many days, like a week for it to be worth it. And what we've realized is that even two nights, even one night is so much more than not going. Like, we had barbecue, we had Winsteads, we went to Crestwood, I bought sunglasses. We went to the Prairie Village, we hung out, we watched movies together.
- [04:38]
Elizabeth
I saw two of my best friends. Yeah.
- [04:40]
Gretchen
I mean, we went on two long walks with our father. We went to Kauffman Gardens, we went to the Nelson, we visited the shuttlecocks. Even in a short time, you can feel like you had a real, real visit. And I always remind myself of that because especially if there's a plane trip involved, you're sort of Like, I want it to be really, really long, but a short trip is great too. And so that was a really good reminder because weirdly enough, we were sort of running out of summer with Eliza and Eleanor, and we were afraid that if we didn't get it in fast and we might run out of a time where we could go together. And we really wanted to do that. And anyway, it was a very happiness boosting trip.
- [05:14]
Elizabeth
It was. How about you? What's making you happier?
- [05:18]
Gretchen
Well, something that makes me happy always is open stacks in a library. And so I am super fortunate because I went to Yale for college. And at Yale, you can go up into Sterling Library and you can actually walk through the shelves and look at the books yourself and pull the books off the shelves yourself. Because in a lot of places they have closed stacks, which means you request a book and then the book is just delivered to you. You can't go there and wander around and look for yourself. And also here in New York, I belong to the New York Society Library, which is like one of my favorite places in New York City. And it's just a block from my house. It makes me so happy. And it's a small library, but it's sort of strangely perfect. Like, almost every book that I want is there. Even though I look for books that seem really random, I'm like, there's no way they're gonna have this. And then they do, but have OpenStack. So I will, if I take my laptop, sometimes I go there and I'll just work at a desk that's sort of in some kind of secret Corner and Stack2 or something. But I love just walking and just looking at the books and the titles. And I just feel really fortunate because I think more and more libraries are not allowing patrons to go and pick the books themselves. But part of the fun of it is because the Dewey Decimal System or whatever, like, if I'm looking for a book, it's in a place where other books like it are there. And often I. I don't. I get the book that I intend to get, but then I also get other books that I didn't even know existed that are just adjacent. And this is something that. It's just fun to do it yourself. Not always be looking for exactly something, not always having an algorithm suggest something, but just letting kind of physical serendipity have its way. So I love open stacks. And open stacks, by the way, just means open shelves. It just means, like, you can walk among the shelves of books.
- [07:05]
Elizabeth
Yeah. I remember in college Gretch, couples like to go up into the stacks and, you know, canoodle in the stacks.
- [07:11]
Gretchen
Oh my gosh. I don't think I ever did any canoodling, but I did a lot of hanging out.
- [07:17]
Elizabeth
I didn't myself, but I remember others doing it and it always seems so romantic.
- [07:22]
Gretchen
Yes, the open stacks. There's so much possibility there.
- [07:25]
Elizabeth
All right, Gretch, coming up, there is something you've been meaning to tell me, but first, this break.
- [07:41]
C
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- [08:56]
Elizabeth
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- [09:29]
Gretchen
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- [09:58]
Elizabeth
All right, Gretchen, we're back. And there's something you've been meaning to tell me.
- [10:02]
Gretchen
Okay. This is something that I have recently. I think I learned this a long time ago. But it's only recently that I realized that I learned it, if you know what I mean. So sometimes I get this thing where I feel really compelled by something. Like something all of a sudden just becomes intensely interesting to me. And sometimes it's obvious why. Like, I remember before we got our dog Barnaby, I. All of a sudden we had, like, 20 books about dogs and dog trainings and the Mind of a dog and memoirs about dogs. It was like, dogs, dogs, dogs, dogs, dogs. And it's funny, with Taffy, I didn't have that same impulse. I wondered if it would come back. And it didn't. It was sort of like I kind of had my fun with that subject. And now I have a dog, and now I have two dogs. But there you could understand why. It's because you're getting a dog. But then sometimes I'll just get really preoccupied with something like color. You know, I just went on that kick for, like, two, three years when, you know, I spent a huge part of my free time reading books about color, thinking about color, writing the book My Color Pilgrimage, which nobody seems to like except for me. And I love it. Another thing, I love reading novels set in religious institutions. Like, I have read so many novels set in monasteries or convents. For some reason, I will read any book if it's set in a monastery or convent. And I used to be kind of judgmental, Or I would be like, I can't let myself go too far with this. Like, why are you doing this to such a degree? Or, why am I spending so much time on it? And so the thing that I've learned is don't judge. It's fine. Maybe there's some reason. There's probably some inner psychic reason, or maybe it somehow eventually will tie into my work. Because a lot of times it does end up tying into my work, but in ways that I can't predict. But I don't now try to channel it in what might seem like a more productive direction. I just let it wash over me, and I just ride the wave of enthusiasm. Do you know what I'm talking about?
- [11:56]
Elizabeth
Oh, yeah. And I'm the exact same way. Like, I remember the period of time where I read only books that were set, like, in New York in the 50s and publishing. I mean, I love that sort of thing. But also, Gretch, you know, I will go down a rabbit hole.
- [12:11]
Gretchen
Uh huh.
- [12:13]
Elizabeth
Like, you know, with the housewives. I love all the housewives. And I love listening to every podcast about the housewives. And I don't like to call it a guilty pleasure. You know, that bothers me when people say it's my guilty pleasure.
- [12:27]
Gretchen
Interesting.
- [12:28]
Elizabeth
Why are you guilty about it?
- [12:30]
Gretchen
Yes, okay, okay, expand on that. What an interesting idea. Right? Yes.
- [12:34]
Elizabeth
Well, especially like, for instance, with the Housewives, people don't feel guilty for watching like 10 football games in a weekend. So why should I feel guilty about watching the shows that I like to watch?
- [12:46]
Gretchen
Right.
- [12:46]
Elizabeth
But a funny example of how sometimes you don't know how things will come back into your life is I watched, you might remember, the whole O.J. simpson trial.
- [12:57]
Gretchen
Oh my gosh, it was the first minute. You were riveted.
- [13:02]
Elizabeth
Yes. And it was really the first time that, you know, a trial was that big and had so much media coverage. And it was the beginning of Court tv. And it was just this whole kind of shift in culture.
- [13:15]
Gretchen
Yes.
- [13:16]
Elizabeth
And I found it very compelling. But then many years later, Sarah and I ended up creating a show with Marcia Clark called the Fix. She was the prosecutor in the O.J. simpson trial. And all of my knowledge of that trial, of course, when we met, Marsha gave us this shorthand.
- [13:34]
Gretchen
Right.
- [13:35]
Elizabeth
So you just don't know why the rabbit hole you're going down is a rabbit hole. But it could come back in ways that you don't expect. And if it doesn't, who cares? Like you said, if it's just for your own pleasure, so be it.
- [13:49]
Gretchen
So I. And I think that's exactly right. And that's why I don't want to be judgmental. And I do now say I'm going to embrace it, because either way is good. Because one, one thing that can happen is like the all, all the thinking that I did about color, I think did feed into life in five senses. I have some of the colors there, but not all the stuff that I have about color. And so it was useful in that way, in that it had got me thinking in a certain way. And certainly the OJ Trial thing, that for you was like, exactly relevant, but maybe it doesn't. Maybe my reading about people in monasteries and convents just will never pay off in any way other than just my sheer pleasure and my interest in the challenges and situations that arise when people are in that circumstance, which for some reason I find incredibly compelling. But either way, embrace it. Because either it's useful or it's just because I do think that sometimes we get into these even on maybe without even realizing that we're being judgmental, we're judging ourselves and thinking, well, this is a waste of my time or I shouldn't be doing this. And it's like, if you're not hurting anybody and it's not crowding out other priorities that are more important to you, I mean, if you were spending nine hours a day doing something and so you're not exercising, not sleeping, not working or whatever, that's not good. But if this is just part of your leisure and it can also like bring something really important into your life once you make room for it. So I always think back to the beginning of my kid lit groups and we're going to hit the 20th anniversary this September. So that's one of the things that's on my 25 for 25 list. I want to plan an anniversary party for the kid lit groups. But now in culture, it's hard to remember what it was like back then because now it's much more typical for an adult to read a children's book or a young adult book or to be interested in that, because there have been these huge culture changing children's and young adult books that have come onto the scene. But back then it was unusual. Adults didn't go to that section of the bookstore and they didn't talk about it. And so when I remember saying to a friend of mine, I really love children's literature and I'm thinking about starting a reading group, what do you think? And she's like, oh, I would like to join that group. And I have a friend who would like to join too. And then I started these groups and there are so many people now in them and it's such an engine of happiness for me because for a while I didn't want to admit it because I'm like, well, I'm this very sophisticated reader and I'm very discerning and I love Virginia Woolf and I like Samuel Johnson and people are like, okay, so you really want to talk about, you know, magic by the lake? And I'm like, there is nothing that would give me more pleasure than to like, just go deep, deep, deep on magic by the lake. But once I acknowledged that about myself, I was able to bring it into my life in a way that gave me enormous pleasure. But even if I didn't start the groups, which gave me the pleasure of connection and new Friends and all that. Even just saying to myself, this is something that I love. I want to go to the children's section of the library. I want to check out books that are children's books. I just bought myself a copy of the Wheel on the School, which is a book that I read when I was, like, nine years old. And I thought, I'm like, I want to reread that book, because I want to reread it. Right. It's just something that I'm interested in. Even though for many people, it would seem like people are often like, they think that our children are in these groups with us. And I'm like, oh, we never talk about what children think. Children are not invited to these groups. But I had to let go of that fear of judgment.
- [16:57]
Elizabeth
Well, I also think going down the rabbit hole gives that pleasure of being a minor expert in something, you know, like reading all about color. Suddenly you see color in a totally different way, and now you're a minor expert in it, and I'm a minor expert in the O.J. simpson trial.
- [17:13]
Gretchen
Well, you're a minor expert in MLMs, Elizabeth. Anytime I see a podcast or a documentary or something or a book, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is for Elizabeth, because she loves reading about MLMs multilevel marketing. And you, I would say, are a minor expert in the history and practice of the multilevel marketing scheme.
- [17:30]
Elizabeth
Yes, that's true. That's another rabbit hole I've gone down. Yeah, for sure.
- [17:34]
Gretchen
Yeah. Well, and you and Eliza and Eleanor, my two daughters, love scams. So whenever there's like, a scam podcast or a scam documentary or a scam show, I'm like, hey, I text you all. And I'm like. Because I don't particularly like a scam. That is not something that is compelling to me. But you guys are like, you're always ready for more.
- [17:50]
Elizabeth
Yes. And then being a TV writer, I feel that it will come in handy to know about scams, because something always interesting for a television show is a scam.
- [18:02]
Gretchen
Absolutely. And for a spotlight on a tool. Halfway day is July 2nd. That is the midpoint of the year. And Halfway day is a great time to reflect and reset on our 25 for 25 lists. I'm doing very well on some of my aims, like Operation Nick's Knowledge was very successful. I did, in fact, get a puppy. Check. Read a retreat with Elizabeth. Check. My slow read of War and Peace. That's happening. I did plan a podcaster gathering, but there are a lot of things that I still have not tackled. It is a good reminder on halfway day to remember what it is that I want to get done and start going because the year is half over. So take the next week to check in on your own aims. If you haven't made a 25 for 25 list already, it's not too late. The second half of the year is a great time to commit to new aims. Visit happiercast.com designyouryear to download the list template and find tips for building lasting habits or recommitting to your goals.
- [19:07]
Elizabeth
Yes, all right, Gretch, Coming up, there's something you've been meaning to ask me, but first, this break.
- [19:18]
Gretchen
Foreign.
- [19:23]
Elizabeth
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- [19:37]
Gretchen
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- [19:54]
Elizabeth
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- [20:18]
Gretchen
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- [20:44]
Elizabeth
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- [21:19]
Gretchen
Listen, I've been meaning to ask you, so you have a substack newsletter which everyone should sign up for? Of course. Go to happierinhollywood.com yes and scroll and sign up. And while you're there, sign up for my substack too. I feel like okay this is like our mandatory reporting. Okay. But on your substack, which I love, you talked about recommitting to your treadmill desk. You even had a little video of you getting on the treadmill desk. And I want to know everything. Why did you stop? Because for the longest time, you did the treadmill desk. And how did you start again? Because I was not really aware that you had stopped until you talked about the fact that your treadmill desk was so covered with stuff that you weren't using it. And so when I came to help you clear clutter, we worked on the treadmill desk. But so take me through what your arc was with the treadmill desk.
- [22:09]
Elizabeth
Well, yeah, I did it for years and years, and Sarah and I would be on zooms, and I'd be doing it be on calls all the.
- [22:16]
Gretchen
Well, in your podcast, Happier in Hollywood, one of the segments is called from the treadmill Desks of. Because it was such a signature thing of you two as a writing team that you had these. I remember visiting your office on the Disney lot, and it was like, two treadmill desks.
- [22:30]
Elizabeth
Yes, yes. So I think what happened is I used them all the time, and I used them during the show. Sarah and I did. We did Fantasy Island, a remake of Fantasy island for Fox. It went two seasons, and when we finished season two, I think I just gave myself a break from the treadmill desk, just as sort of almost a ritual of finishing the show, thinking, of course, oh, I just won't do this for a few days, and then I'll get back on the treadmill desk. It was sort of like a marking of time, and then I just didn't get back on.
- [23:08]
Gretchen
And how long was it?
- [23:09]
Elizabeth
And how I was sitting on the sofa. I mean, how long is it? It's been years now. And this is goes to your point that you always make of you think once you have a habit, like, oh, I had it for three weeks, I'll have it forever. A good habit can be broken in an afternoon. It does not take a long time to break a habit. And I don't know why. It just stopped being something that occurred to me even though I was looking at it all day every day.
- [23:38]
Gretchen
Well, you know, this reminds me of, you know, a book that I'm talking about all the time that I love and that I'm recommending to everybody is the English Understanding Wool by Helen DeWitt, which is like 70 pages long, but it feels like a whole book. But the main character plays the piano very well, and she says, one cannot of Course, dispense with a piano for more than a day or two, one gets out of the habit of practice with fatal ease. And that's the thing, is you think, I've been doing it, I've been doing it. I've been doing it. Of course it's a habit. Of course I would miss it so much if it just dropped out of my schedule. But then it does, and you hardly notice, right?
- [24:13]
Elizabeth
Yes. And even in my case, I had Sarah so still on her treadmill desk. So she has a treadmill desk in her clothice at home. Her off her closet she made into an office, and she has one at her office in downtown Ojai, so she has two. And I can always hear it whirring in the background. And yet it didn't seem like something I should be doing. So I'm recommitting Gretch to the treadmill desk. Now. You were crucial to this, because last time you were in la, you helped me clear clutter in my office. And part of that was clearing off the treadmill desk. And I think that was a big piece of me getting back on the desk.
- [24:57]
Gretchen
Well, this makes me think of a couple things. Partly was our try this at home of dust it off. Like, if something's dusty, that's a clue that it's not being used. Or, like, dusty in the fact that it's loaded with stuff, but also the fact that a little bit of inconvenience can stop us from doing something. And so if there's something we want ourselves to do, it should be as convenient as possible. And so not only did you have to start being on the treadmill desk again, you had to clear off the treadmill desk. And that's something that you do not enjoy doing. And so that was like, a big hurdle. And you could say, well, Gretchen, you came over and we did it in, like, an hour, which we did. But that was a real stumbling block for you. But here's the other thing is starting is often easier than starting over. The novelty of starting something kind of gives you energy. You're curious. But then if you stop and you have to start over, that can often be hard. Sometimes we feel discouraged because we feel like we backslid. It is a little bit more effortful to be on a treadmill desk. I mean, that is the point of it.
- [25:53]
Elizabeth
Yes.
- [25:54]
Gretchen
I remember one time, I think you gave. Maybe you gave up eating Pepperidge Farm fish crackers. Then you were like, oh, but then I ate some, and I remembered, wow, these crackers are really good. You know, I kind of forgot. So starting over is harder. And this reminds me of this idea of setting a tripwire. And I would say, do not treat yourself with something like not doing the treadmill disc. You know, it happens better than before. I talk about treats and rewards, and you want treats to be healthy treats. You don't want to treat yourself for something that you've been doing that's good by not doing it or doing the opposite, because that's just counterproductive. So I would say it wasn't a good treat to begin with. But even if you wanted to take a break from it, setting a tripwire, being like, and next Monday, I will start again, and not something like the next time we get a show on the air, but something like by the beginning of next week or starting on Saturday morning. So that there was an obvious thing because it was just sort of a general break that then extended and extended and extended.
- [26:56]
Elizabeth
Exactly. So I'm recommitted back on the treadmill desk so I can feel smug once again for all the steps I'm getting in, which is.
- [27:06]
Gretchen
And what is it like? What do you notice about that?
- [27:09]
Elizabeth
Well, it's only been, like, a couple of days or a few days. Just, it's not that hard. I mean, it's very easy to walk and talk. So much of what I'm doing is, like, chatting with Sarah about various things. I still find it hard to write, like, to really write on the treadmill desk, but that's a small part of my job. I mean, there's so many other things I'm doing besides writing that. There's plenty of time to get in a lot of steps. And then I feel like I've done more than one thing in a day. It's like, oh, I haven't just written this email and responded to this person and had this meeting. I've also gotten in maybe 10,000 steps, so it's got many benefits.
- [27:54]
Gretchen
And do you find that you're more tired at the end of the day, or do you notice it? Or you don't even really notice it.
- [27:59]
Elizabeth
I haven't noticed that yet, but I. If I do more, if I start doing, like, three hours, then I probably will feel more tired.
- [28:08]
Gretchen
Yeah. Yeah. Well done. That's great.
- [28:12]
Elizabeth
Well, you gave me that treadmill desk, Gretchen. It was, like, the best gift ever, so thank you.
- [28:18]
Gretchen
That was. That's my most successful gift ever. So I take a personal interest in the treadmill, and I'm very excited that you're back on it. That's wonderful.
- [28:25]
Elizabeth
Yeah. And Gretchen, you know, of course, I'm a type 1 diabetic, so just more movement is really good for blood sugar. So for me in particular, the treadmill desk is a great thing in life.
- [28:38]
Gretchen
Oh, that's great. Oh, I'm so happy. Gold star.
- [28:41]
Elizabeth
And, Gretchen, this week, our quotation is a secret of adulthood.
- [28:45]
Gretchen
Yes. This is one of my secrets of adulthood from my book. And we were walking in Kansas City, Elizabeth, and this came up, and neither one of us could remember the context, which is so annoying to me because it was the perfect example of this secret of adulthood. And I started saying it, and you joined in, and we said it in chorus because it was such a good example, and neither one of us can remember it. So it's so annoying. But there is, like, an official one. There's, like, an official illustration of it, fortunately. And the secret of adulthood is the person who works the hardest isn't necessarily doing the best work. So just because, you know, you're working the most hours or you're grinding it out, it doesn't necessarily mean that your work is the best work, because sometimes we have to work smarter. And there's a wonderful story about this, which, Elizabeth, actually, you originally told me the story, and then I looked it up, and it is a story. Like, who knows if it's apocryphal or not, but it is a story that is often reported. And the story goes that the celebrated actors Laurence Olivier and Dustin Hoffman were working together on the 1976 movie Marathon Man. And the story goes that Hoffman told Olivier that to prepare for a scene where his character had been awake for three days, he himself, Dustin Hoffman, had not slept for 48 hours. And Olivier replied, my dear boy, why don't you just try acting? And it's just funny. It's like, yeah, why don't you just try acting? Right? And they both gave amazing performances. So, anyway, that's the secret of adulthood that I. And a story that I love.
- [30:11]
Elizabeth
I love it, too.
- [30:13]
Gretchen
That's funny. So, Elizabeth, are you feeling happier?
- [30:16]
Elizabeth
Yes, I am feeling happier. Thank you to Chuck. Bye, Gretch.
- [30:21]
Gretchen
Bye, Elizabeth. The best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is. Is next.
- [30:40]
Elizabeth
Gretch. I was racking my brain to try to remember what we were talking about. What are we talking about? We got to the Try acting. But it just goes to show, you always have to write everything down.
- [30:51]
Gretchen
You have to write it down, because.
- [30:53]
Elizabeth
In the moment, if you think you might want to talk about it later, write it down because.
- [30:57]
Gretchen
No, because we were exclaiming with delight that we had both like it fit the example so perfectly. Both of us did it. I know exactly where we were standing. I. I mean, I tried to retrace our stuff. I know. Write it down. If there's anything we have learned with creative ideas, write it down.
- [31:15]
Elizabeth
Yep.
- [31:19]
Gretchen
From the onward project.