More Happier: Real Housewives & Bad Apologies, the Empty Nest & Parenting Secrets of Adulthood

Summary

Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin
Episode Title: More Happier: Real Housewives & Bad Apologies, the Empty Nest & Parenting Secrets of Adulthood
Release Date: August 9, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Happier with Gretchen Rubin, host Gretchen Rubin and her co-host, Elizabeth Craft, delve into a variety of topics centered around happiness, personal growth, and the evolving dynamics of adulthood. From extracting valuable lessons on apologies inspired by the Real Housewives series to navigating the complexities of parenting adult children during the empty nest phase, both Gretchen and Elizabeth offer insightful perspectives and practical advice aimed at fostering a more fulfilling and joyful life.

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Finding Joy in Everyday Moments

Elizabeth Craft opens the conversation by sharing what currently brings her happiness: the summer weather and the simple pleasure of spending time outdoors. She describes how enjoying her backyard setup—complete with comfortable chairs, a fire pit, and citronella candles to ward off mosquitoes—has significantly enhanced her well-being.

"It really does make me happier to sit outside." (02:19)

Gretchen Rubin echoes this sentiment by discussing her appreciation for the smooth functioning of everyday systems, such as the postal service and public transportation. She finds joy in the efficiency and reliability of these services, which allow her to navigate daily tasks with ease and satisfaction.

"I do get this pleasure from all of us getting where we're going and also just the pleasure of myself doing it." (06:00)

Lessons on Apologies from the Real Housewives

Transitioning to the influence of the Real Housewives series, Elizabeth Craft highlights the frequent occurrence of apologies within the show and the different ways they are executed. She emphasizes the importance of genuine apologies, which entail acknowledging wrongdoing without justifying actions.

"A bad way to apologize is to apologize but have a justification of your behavior or reason why you had to do what you did." (14:24)

Gretchen Rubin expands on this by sharing her personal struggles with defensiveness and the tendency to explain rather than simply apologize. She underscores the power of taking responsibility and the positive impact it can have on relationships.

"When you take responsibility when you deserve it, it calms them down." (18:14)

The hosts agree that a sincere apology involves:

1. Acknowledgement of Harm: Clearly stating what was done wrong and its impact.
2. Expression of Regret: Demonstrating remorse and taking full responsibility.
3. Offering to Make Amends: Taking steps to repair the damage and prevent future occurrences.

These elements ensure that apologies are meaningful and effective in mending relationships.

Navigating the Empty Nest: Parenting Adult Children

The conversation shifts to the topic of parenting adult children, a phase often referred to as the empty nest. Elizabeth Craft reflects on her experiences with her 26-year-old daughter, Eliza, highlighting the balance between providing support and allowing independence.

"I really am trying to embrace this idea... I don't have to have an opinion. I can be super, super interested and engaged." (24:19)

Gretchen Rubin adds that this stage can be both liberating and challenging. She emphasizes the importance of transitioning from a coaching role to a cheerleading one, offering support without overstepping.

"It's that idea of switching from coach to cheerleader where you're not coaching from the sidelines, you're just cheering." (25:47)

Both hosts discuss strategies for maintaining a healthy relationship with adult children, including:

• Respecting Independence: Allowing children to make their own decisions and learn from their experiences.
• Setting Boundaries: Defining clear limits to avoid unnecessary interference.
• Offering Support: Being available for guidance without imposing opinions or advice.

Secrets of Adulthood: Embracing Growth and Responsibility

Elizabeth Craft shares her "secrets of adulthood," focusing on the importance of filtering advice and ensuring that love remains unconditional.

"My daughters live in the full sunshine of my love... Nothing can come between my daughters and my love." (27:01)

Gretchen Rubin complements this by discussing the transformative nature of adulthood and the continuous learning process it entails. She touches upon the idea that adulthood involves constantly adapting to new roles and responsibilities, whether it's managing household dynamics or personal growth.

Memorable Quotes

• Daniel Patrick Moynihan: "If you want to build a great city, create a great university, and wait 200 years."
  • Gretchen adapts this to happiness: "The best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. And the second best time is now." (29:19)

Conclusion

In this episode, Gretchen Rubin and Elizabeth Craft provide a thoughtful exploration of what it means to pursue happiness through everyday actions, genuine relationships, and the challenges of parenting adult children. By drawing lessons from popular culture and personal experiences, they offer listeners practical tools and reflections to enhance their own lives.

Notable Takeaways

• Effective Apologies: Acknowledge harm, express regret, and offer to make amends without justifying actions.
• Parenting Adult Children: Transition from coaching to cheering, respect their independence, and maintain unconditional love.
• Finding Joy: Appreciate the efficient functioning of everyday systems and embrace simple pleasures like spending time outdoors.

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Disclaimer: Timestamps referenced (e.g., 02:19) correspond to the transcript provided and are included to attribute quotes accurately.

Transcript

[Gretchen Rubin]

From fitness routines to mental resilience, navigating personal goals to tackling burnout, we all need a little help being human. That's what the Life Kit podcast from NPR is here to do. If you're looking to move with more intention or just need thoughtful guidance on living better, Life Kit delivers strategies to help you make meaningful, sustainable change. Life Kit offers real stories, relevant insights, and clear takeaways to help you meet decision making moments with confidence and clarity.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Gretch, you and I are always trying to add whimsy to our lives, so I really appreciated an episode about how to bring more play into life. Love Play Life Kit isn't just another podcast about self improvement. It's about understanding how to live a little better. Starting now, get help tackling common issues like relationships, finances, parenting, and your career. Then walk away with a game plan you can implement right away. Listen now to the Life Kit Podcast from npr. We have a podcast Wreck for you, one we think you're going to absolutely Love for the Love with Jen Hatmaker Jen is a New York Times bestselling author whose life's work is helping women show up for their lives with honesty, joy and courage. She believes that women living in freedom are the answer to what ails the world, and I agree.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I recently joined them to talk about secrets of adulthood and how to live a happier, simpler life. If you're into real talk, good laughs and a little soul, fuel for the love is a must. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Lemonada.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hello, we're here for More Happier a podcast where we get happier. It's the weekend. It's time for some weekend listening with a looser vibe. Hey Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Hey Gretch.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Today we'll talk about how the Real Housewives can show us the wrong way to do something important. And we will talk about how the empty nest, or as I like to call it, open door phase is going for me. But first, something making us happier. Elizabeth, what is something making you happier?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, Gretch, it is summer and you know, I am so sitting outside almost every day for a significant amount of time and it is making me so much happier. We have a lovely backyard here which we have worked very hard on, or I should say Adam has worked very hard on because I, to be clear, nothing but I have just making a habit of it now that it's summer, of taking coffee outside, sitting outside with the dogs the other night, several other nights, I should say, Adam and I have sat outside in the evening a lot of times. It'll be cool Enough here to even turn on the fire pit. Even though it's summer and it's just lovely, we've gotten our citronella candles to keep the mosquitoes away. That works with varying degrees of success depending on what it's like outside. But it really does make me happier to sit outside.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Thing is, I'm so confused about the weather in Los Angeles because isn't it in really extreme hot now? But I mean. Or it just. I never understand, like, what weather to expect.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, well, it really depends. I mean, this week it's really no hotter than the 80s all day. And at night, you know, it'll go down to the low 60s sometimes. Now, in the valley, we can't have stretches where it's over a hundred. And it stays hot at night. But a lot of the time it does not do that. It cools down to a beautiful temperature at night. And we are having a mild stretch right now. I would say, well, this is a.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Good reminder of not wanting to take things for granted. Because I think when you have a lot of good weather, it's easier to take good weather for granted and not make the most of it and think, well, I should be enjoying a beautiful day with my cup of coffee. Even though I could do it yesterday, I should still do it today and get that same enjoyment. You don't wanna take it for granted because then the weather gets bad and you're like, why didn't I do it when I had the chance?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah. And Gretchen, you know, you always talk about using the things that you like about your house.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So I really am trying to go, okay, we love our backyard. We have some really comfortable chairs out there. Let me take advantage of that and use it. And I can work outside. I've been often reading my daily War and Peace chapter outside. I have this new concept planner where I'm taking notes about a novel outside. So I'll take that out.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I'm so curious about. About that, Elizabeth. Cause I heard you and Sarah talking about that on Happier in Hollywood, and I'm very intrigued by it. So once you get it filled out a little bit, I'm gonna ask you to show it to me. Cause I'm interested in what that. That seems like a very pleasant thing to do. Like writing in your concept journal in your backyard with your cup of coffee. That seems like a nice practice.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, it is a nice practice. So what about you, Gretch? What's making you happier as we march through summer?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, I was thinking there's a kind of pleasure that I Get, I guess I would call it travel satisfaction. There's an element of smugness to it where it does an ever so slight air of self congratulation. But it's also what I would call the pleasure of things working as they should. Like, I love thinking about, like, the postal service, right? Because it's like, it's so efficient and how amazing. You put a letter in a box and then it gets delivered wherever you want. And it's so efficient and it works the way that it should. You know, we talk about when airplanes get delayed or when there's like a problem on the subway, but basically these things work. I did my 10 cities in 10 days for my book tour, and everything worked perfectly. I take the subway constantly and like, every so often there's an issue, but almost always it works great. And I stand there for like two minutes before a subway comes, and I'll just be walking through. Especially when I'm doing, like, a change, which, by the way, I don't know how to do that in my head. It's not like I've gotten so sophisticated about how to use the subways. My app tells me exactly what to do, but I'm like, here I am, I'm transferring from the 4, 5, 6, and then I'm gonna take the 7 over, and then I'm gonna pick up the one walking through. And I see all these people walking purposefully, and everybody knows where they're going, and we're sorting ourselves out and, like, we all go in and we all come out and everybody's peaceful and organized. Or you're like, at the airport, and it's like planes are landing and planes are taking off and all these people are there, but they somehow get sorted into their proper gates. And I will just walk down and I just have this feeling of like, here I am, all grown up with my roller bag or, you know, or my bandolier slung around my neck, and I am just striding through the halls, going exactly where I want to go. And I just. I don't know, it's just I do get a kick out of it, which. Why, you know, it's like everybody else does it too. It's not like I'm the only one who's figured out how to use this subway or an airport. And yet I do get this pleasure from all of us getting where we're going and also just a pleasure of myself doing it. It's sort of odd.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I hear you on that. I think I get happier from, you know, the same exact thing I Remember recently, I was in New York and I used the subway to go see my friend Caroline, who lives way downtown. And everyone kept telling me, elizabeth, use the subway. It's going to be the most convenient way to get there. And then, sure enough, I was at Caroline's door in like 13 minutes. I couldn't believe it. And it was the most convenient thing. And then coming back up, same thing, extremely fast. And it was so satisfying. So I get what you're saying.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. It reminds me of this passage that I read in a really remarkable essay that I highly recommend called no Place Like Home that Nancy Franklin wrote in the New Yorker. It's dated October 16, 1995. I read this essay several times when I was writing. Happier at home, I think. And here's how she sort of describes her own take on this kind of pleasure. She wrote, when I rode up in my elevator alone at night after work, wearing the trench coat and carrying my book bag, I always became flooded by a melancholy vanity, as if I were being watched through a hidden camera. Here is a young woman living in New York. It's the end of the day and she's going home to her apartment. To me, my self conscious weariness was cinematic and fascinating. It made me feel like an adult. Now I mostly get that feeling when I'm going home in a taxi late at night. But I don't know whether the feeling is still really mine or whether I ripped it off from my Dinner With Andre. My Dinner With Andre being a very talky New York Y kind of movie. But I love this self conscious weariness and this idea that like somebody's watching through a camera and remarking on it. That's kind of related to how I feel as I'm walking around. Like, look at her go. Oh, she's got it figured out.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Maybe it's a very New Yorky thing. Cause I will say I also would feel this. Gretchen, back when I lived in New York, I lived in the Village and I worked on 17th street and I would walk to and from work every day. And I would feel this very often where I would get just this wave of happiness over just walking home and, you know, being an adult. Walking to work.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So I get it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But do you ever get it when you're driving to work? Are you like, here she is in her car, she's on the highway, she's driving to the lot or something like that. Do you ever get that feeling?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Well, you know, I've been working from home for so long. I haven't it recently, but Yeah, I think I will.

[Gretchen Rubin]

No, I know you wrote in your substack about how you wanted to go back to work.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah. So I want to go back to working in an office. Yes. I have been working from home, really, mostly since the pandemic, and I am tired of it. Mom kept saying people will get tired of it, and I think she's right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, you're very, very social, too.

[Elizabeth Craft]

It's the part of the job I love is being social, so I miss it. It's just not the same. Being social on a zoom is just not the same as being social in person. But, yeah, I think there is that pleasure of travel.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I get it, because I was thinking about for Project Empty Nest, about adjacent joys like you love to feed or you love to celebrate. And that's tied up in parenting, but it's not essential to parenting. It's an adjacent joy of parenting. So maybe this is sort of like a bundle of pleasures that I experience at these times, and part of it is things working as they should and being free and going where I want and travel, and it's all mixed up in my mind. But anyway, it's making every. I was just in the subway, and I was like, oh, this is something that is really making me happy. I love the subway.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Maybe we can call it, like, the pleasure of toing and froing.

[Gretchen Rubin]

The pleasure of going to and fro. I like that. Okay, good. All right.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay, Gretch. Coming up, I've got a lesson from the Real Housewives. You know, I love my lessons from the Real Housewives. But first, this break. Meet JLab headphones and speakers as vibrant as your summer beach days, workout sessions, or chill moments. Find the perfect sound with JLab. JLab's colorful collection has something for every summer adventure and every moment. Think headphones and speakers and fresh summer colors with features you actually want for beach workouts, poolside chilling, or sunset jamming sessions.

[Gretchen Rubin]

They have so many great products. I mean, the one that I really, really Love is the JBuds Mini. These are little, tiny earbuds. They fit on your keychain. I carry mine with me everywhere. They come in fresh mint, green, sage, ocean aqua, bright pink, or sleek black. I have the black. They're smaller than a coin. Perfect for small ears and for summer pockets. Plus, they have their summer speaker series. From pocket size to party size, the JLab party speaker series brings powerful sound to any summer gathering. Look for the blue box at retailers everywhere or shop jlab.com and use code happier for 15% off your order. Today you know how much we love a travel hack. And if you've been keeping up with our podcast, you know we just revisited one of our favorite episodes where we shared our all time favorite travel tips. My favorite travel hack is to keep a travel toiletry kit stocked at all times. That way, rather than unpacking or repacking your toiletries every time you travel, you just keep a kit of all your travel size goodies in your closet year round. And that way, packing is so much easier and you never forget anything important.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Another travel hack hosting your space on Airbnb when you're away. Yep. Your place, just sitting there while you're off on vacation could actually be making you money. With Airbnb, you decide when to host, who stays and how much to charge. And Airbnb gives you support every step of the way. It is just the smart thing to do. And just think, with all that extra cash coming in, you can start saving toward your next weekend getaway. You might as well. You already have your toiletries packed. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host okay, Elizabeth.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It'S time for lessons from the Real Housewives. You know, I don't watch the Real Housewives, but I feel like I've learned so much from them because of your teachings. I feel like you channel the Real Housewives for the benefit of all.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes. I am a student of the Real Housewives and I take from them the good and the bad.

[Gretchen Rubin]

When the student is ready, the teacher appears. Right. And the teacher can come in many forms. Okay. Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

One thing that comes up a lot on the Real Housewives are apologies. Okay. Because people are often acting badly doing things that one needs to apologize for. And what you realize watching the Housewives is something we all know, but it's good to be reminded of, which is there are good ways to apologize and there are bad ways to apologize.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And a bad way to apologize. And Gretchen, I mean, I am guilty of doing this many, many times myself, is to apologize. But in your apology, to have a justification of your behavior or reason why you had to do what you did.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And that is not something that makes people feel they're being apologized to.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That is not something that's going to diffuse tension. And in fact, it could make the tension between you and the person you're apologizing to worse.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's funny that you said this because I was just asked on some questionnaire, what's my superpower and what's my Achilles heel? And I said my superpower was noticing when other people said something interesting and my Achilles heel or my kryptonite, I think they asked my kryptonite was my defensiveness.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Because, you know, I have my thing where I can't stand any plot having unjust accusation. I will often want to just explain, like, well, I want you to understand exactly what was going on in my mind. And it's just. It's not satisfying.

[Elizabeth Craft]

No. And I, in the same way, I apparently don't take criticism well. I have been told, although I feel I take criticism very well. Certainly in a professional, you take criticism.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Morning, noon, and night. Maybe you're just okay by the time.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Professional.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. You're like, I do it constantly, like 10 hours a day.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah. Personally is different, I think.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, personally is different.

[Elizabeth Craft]

So just say you're sorry. Don't explain why you did it. Of course, the classic is, I'm sorry if I offended you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. Right.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That will get you in trouble every time.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And on the Housewives, Gretch, I was trying to think of, like, what's a great example? But it literally comes up so often on the Housewives that people are giving bad apologies that I couldn't even isolate one time. If you watch any episode of the Housewives, there's bound to be a bad apology. The other thing I was thinking about as a lesson on apologies from the Housewives is just using apologizing as a way to get away with bad behavior. There was this one housewife, Ramona from New York City, who would just do whatever bad thing she wanted and then apologize. And that's not acceptable either.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Did it become clear through the pattern of her behavior that she was like, ask forgiveness, not permission, and she just. That was her. Just her way of operating?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes. I think they had a name for her that was something like the apolog. Something like that. Some sort of name for her because she just would always say the most awful things and then very sincerely apologize. And if you are doing things over and over and over that you have to apologize for, you really need to look at your behavior and think about changing it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. Well, you know, when I wrote the Happiness Project, a big reason that I did it was that I was feeling guilty. I was just feeling like, I'm yelling too much. I'm too irritable. I'm feeling bad for the way I'm behaving. I'm not living up to my standards for myself, and I don't want to keep apologizing for it. I want to just do A better job by managing myself better. So in this way. Well, maybe one of the lessons from the Real Housewives is look at your apologies, and if there's a pattern there, figure out, do I need to take bigger action. As an analogy, a friend of mine, she tripped a couple times on her foot. And like, the first time, I think she banged her knee. And the second time, she sort of sprained her ankle or whatever, and she went to her doctor and he said, the real question is, why do you keep tripping and saying, now we're seeing a pattern? And it turned out she dragged her foot. I guess this is a fairly common thing, but if you're doing something more than a few times, you need to step back and say, okay, is there a larger pattern that I need to be aware of instead of just the constant apologies, which then ring very hollow?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes. And the other thing, Gretchen, on a positive note about apologies, is that it is amazing what an apology can do. A good apology, I know for myself, I can be so mad, let's say at Adam, and then if he apologizes, it just totally goes away. It's amazing to me how quickly bad feelings can just evaporate with a simple acknowledgement. So it's something to remember.

[Gretchen Rubin]

One of my secrets of adulthood is if we take the blame when we deserve it, others will give us more responsibility. And again, it's because I think sometimes people think like, well, I don't want to take the blame for something. Something. Taking the blame is sort of akin to apologizing, which is accepting responsibility. I think people are like, well, it'll undermine me. Like, my coworkers will think less of me, or my family will be more angry at me. But in fact, when you take responsibility when you deserve it, you don't want to just be some doormat. But if you deserve it, then I think it calms them down. They see, okay, this person has accepted responsibility. Now they can learn. I don't have to worry that the finger's going to get pointed at me because somebody else has self identified as the person responsible for a mistake. It is. It's amazingly powerful. And I think people, sometimes they think if I apologize, then I'm gonna be accepting blame, and then somehow that's gonna make things worse, whereas, in fact, it makes it better.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah. And, Gretchen, I wanted to mention to you that I was thinking about this because apologies came up as a major topic on the premiere of the Real Housewives of Orange county, and they were having a conversation about whether or not someone should apologize at the golden door, which is a place that you and I went together. So they were doing Tai chi in the room where you and I did tai chi, and I saw all the places where we had been. So that was super fun.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, that is so fun. That's great. Well, I was curious about apology. I looked up what are the elements of an effective apology. So this is interesting. Okay, first is acknowledgement of the harm. Clearly state what you did wrong and how it affected the other person. Okay, so this is like, okay, I get it. This is what I did wrong. Expression of regret, which is you express remorse, take responsibility. This is like, avoid making excuses and that you understand that it was your fault, so you're taking responsibility, offer to make amends, try to repair the damage, or to say that you're not gonna do it again. And then sometimes you ask for forgiveness. But I think it is really, even if you lose your temper at your 8 year old and you want to apologize for it, you want to give an effective apology.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes. So thank you to the housewives for that lesson.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Gretchen, what is our spotlight on a tool?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. You can get a free free month of the Happier app. So I worked with a brilliant team to develop a tool that will help you create any habit that you want. Because a lot of times when we're trying to make ourselves happier, we're trying to form a habit. Maybe you want to build a morning routine or you want to spend more time outside. You want to read for 25 minutes a day. There are tools in the app that will help you follow through. You can track unlimited habits and experiment with different approaches and tools. This offer is is just for first time subscribers. So if you've been curious, now is your time to try the app for free. You can Download it by August 15th in the app Store or Google Play.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Excellent. Okay, coming up, there's something I've been meaning to ask you, but first, this break. Gretch, you know that I am the biggest fan of Audible. I absolutely love audio books. Audible has thousands of titles. I love a good romance and they have everything from, like, the modern steamy stuff to historical. I love listening to the OG romance, Pride and Prejudice. I just can't get enough. Whether I'm getting ready in the morning, whether I'm driving. I might even just sit on my couch and listen to Audible for hours.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Audible's romance collection has something to satisfy every side of you. When it comes down to what romance you're into, you can't be pinned down. And here's your invitation to have it all hear modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu and Ali Hazelwood, the latest romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarros, and Regency favorites like Bridgerton and Outlander. Plus all the really steamy stuff. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com happier if.

[Elizabeth Craft]

You'Re someone who's curious about why we are the way we are, why we succeed, why we screw up, then you'll want to check out Armchair Expert. Hosted by Dax Shepard and Monica Padman, the show explores big, honest conversations with artists, thinkers, scientists, and cultural icons like Alex Cooper, Brad Pitt and Monica Lewinsky, just to name a few. Gretchen, you were on Armchair Expert. Had a great conversation. Together they explore everything from identity and addiction to imposter syndrome and finding your purpose.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Then on Fridays, they flip the mic to the listeners with Armchair Anonymous, a listener driven series where real people call in with raw, funny and totally human confessions. From disastrous dates and family secrets to accidentally joining a cult, they've heard it all. If you love self reflection, big ideas, and embracing the comedic chaos of life, follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe to armchair expert on YouTube.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay, Gretch, we're back. And there is something I've been meaning to ask you, which is what is it like to parent an adult child? And I'm really thinking about eliza because she's 26, which is decidedly an adult. Eleanor may sort of be an adult, but I feel like as long as you're in college, you're still really, you know, in the child realm. But what is it like?

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's interesting. One thing is, in some ways it's fantastic because they are. Well, I mean, I'll speak to Eliza. One thing that's amazing about Eliza is she's super resourceful and so she's really good at problem solving or researching things. And so she's really this resource. We were together and Barnaby hurt his leg and before you knew it, Eliza's like, okay, here is a weekend clinic. Like, you know, Cause we weren't here in New York City, so we couldn't just go to our regular vet. Like, here's a place we can go and this is where it is and this is what the hours are. And she just got it figured out by the time I had like emerged from my fog and realized that he really was limping a lot. So she's super resourceful so that there's somebody to turn to, which is Amazing. And then also, it's like, I really am trying to embrace this idea, you know, to that Polish proverb, not my circus, not my monkeys, where it's like, they aren't my problems to solve. I don't have to have a view unless somebody asks for my opinion. I don't have to have an opinion. I can be super, super interested and Eng, like, she's working on her thesis for her master's program, and I love talking to her about it. But do I have to say, is this the right subject for your thesis? Should you be writing a thesis at all? Should you do this? Should you do that? I'm like, I don't have to worry about that. So that's very freeing. But it's also, you know, it takes a switch, right?

[Elizabeth Craft]

It's got to be. It takes some discipline to not be more actively parent.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. Well, it's that idea of switching from coach to cheerleader where you're not coaching from the sidelines, you're just cheering, you know? I love secrets of adulthood, so I've started writing my secrets of adulthood for the open door phase for my book project, Empty Nest. And so here's a few of them. Tell me what, if you agree, one is unsolicited advice feels like criticism.

[Elizabeth Craft]

And Gretch, I am so guilty of that. That really hit home with me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

What kind of unsolicited advice do you give to Jack?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? You could do this, you know? And it definitely feels like criticism.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, but here's the one thing that I will say, and this is the thing about an aphorism. I'm like, I'm still thinking, like, does this capture all of it? Because there is an element of advice where you're like, only your mom is gonna say, hey, honey, you have really bad breath. You know what I mean? Like, I do think that you have to remember that as a parent, there are things where maybe you have to be willing to say things that are hard.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That's true. Nonetheless, there are many times when unsolicited advice is not helpful.

[Gretchen Rubin]

One thing that's really admirable about our parents is they really only give advice when invited to give advice. Like, you practically have to say to them, I am now asking for your advice for them to weigh in, which I think it's easy not to notice bad behavior that people don't commit. You know what I mean? But I think we should learn the lesson from them. Okay, so here's another secret of adulthood. And this is more. This is less the secret of adulthood, I think, than like a motto for myself. And that is, my daughters live in the full sunshine of my love. And this is kind of like a metaphor. It's very powerful for me as kind of a visual image of my love just beaming out with nothing in between to shadow or to block. Nothing can come between my daughters and my love. And so sometimes when I'm getting very irritable or I want to speak up about something or whatever, I just think they should never feel like that would interfere with my full love.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I love that those are great grips.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But I'm still learning. I mean, that's one of the things that's challenging about parenting, is that it changes all the time. Like, the minute you get adjusted to two naps, then it's down to one nap. And then you're like, oh, my gosh, how are we going to live without a nap? And then the nap is gone. And of course, now Eleanor. Eleanor takes a nap. Listen, you used to do this. I don't know if you still do it. I would call this the evening nap, where I'm like, it's night. Don't take a nap at night. But Eleanor will take, like, a nap at 6 or 7pm I did go.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Through a long phase of doing that. I haven't done that lately. But, yes, I used to do that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I remember one time you said to me, oh, I take my most deep and refreshing naps at like, like, what Was it, like, 7:00'? Clock? I'll lie down and I'll go to sleep for two or three hours. I'm like, we call that going to bed. You're just under slept. You just need to go to bed. How did you finally outgrow that habit? I remember that.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I don't know. I'm sure it had something to do with having a kid. Probably. I don't know.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. Forcing you to become more regular, Maybe. Yeah. That's funny.

[Elizabeth Craft]

I want to hear about this as it evolves because, of course, it's in my future as well. So I'm just. I love this idea of, like, mind painfully parenting an adult.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, yes. It's very different. I feel like I'm still learning.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Okay, Gretch, what is our quotation this week?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, this is a line attributed to Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who is the senator from New York. He said, if you want to build a great city, create a great university, and wait 200 years, that reminds me of the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. And the second best time is now. Now. Kind of along the same lines.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Definitely.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So, Elizabeth, are you feeling happier?

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yes, I am feeling happier. Thank you to Chuck. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time because you can listen completely ad free. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or go to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's Lemonada, a premium dot com. Bye, Gretch.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Bye, Elizabeth. Here it is again. The best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. Hail as if. And Chuck, the reason that my camera shut off is because it is so hot in my office. Since I can't have my air conditioning on while we're recording, the temperature gets very hot very fast. And I've noticed over time, I think that's what's making my camera shut off.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Oh. Meanwhile, I had my heater on in my office this morning.

[Gretchen Rubin]

If it's not one thing, it's another. From the Onward project. You know how much we love a travel hack. And if you've been keeping up with our podcast, you know we just revisited one of our favorite episodes where we shared our all time favorite travel tips. My favorite travel hack is to keep a travel toiletry kit stocked at all times. That way, rather than unpacking or repacking your toiletries every time you travel, you just keep a kit of all your travel size goodies in your closet year round. And that way, packing is so much easier and you never forget anything important.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Another travel hack Hosting your space on Airbnb when you're away. Yep, your place just sitting there while you're off on vacation could actually be making you money. With Airbnb, you decide when to host, who stays and how much to charge. And Airbnb gives you support every step of the way. It is just the smart thing to do. And just think, with all that extra cash coming in, you can start saving toward your next weekend getaway. You might as well. You already have your toiletries packed. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.