← Happier with Gretchen Rubin
Happier with Gretchen Rubin
More Happier: Talking Romance Writing with Stacey Abrams and Lori Gottlieb
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- [00:02]
Lori Gottlieb
Lemonade.
- [00:06]
Gretchen Rubin
This special episode, the Romance Roundtable, is brought to you exclusively by Audible. Do you love a good love story? The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every side of you. You may love a story about a dalliance with a duke or perhaps a sexy billionaire set in the big city or at the hockey rink or in another realm with dragons. Hear modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu, romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarros, Regency favorites like the new Audible original Pride and Prejudice, plus the really steamy stuff. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com hello, we are here for More Happier a podcast where we get happier. Today's episode is a special edition in our Roundtable Conversation series and the topic today is romance. Because for so many of us, romance is an important aspect of a happier life. So it's a great subject for a Roundtable discussion. The three of us are here today to talk it over. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness and human nature, and I'm host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. And here today are my two terrific guests. First, Stacey Abrams. Stacey S. Stacey Abrams is a best selling author whose romance novels, written under the pen name Selena Montgomery, I Love the Idea of Having a Pen Name, explores themes of passion, justice, identity and power. Her latest book, Coded justice, is a legal thriller that takes on questions of technology, ethics and accountability, with romance woven in too. You may also know her as a nationally recognized political leader and voting rights advocate. She served as Minority Leader of the Georgia House of Representatives and founded Fair Fight Action and other civic organizations to expand voting access and representation. Hello Stacey.
- [02:13]
Stacey Abrams
Thank you so much for having me, Gretchen.
- [02:15]
Gretchen Rubin
It's so fun to have you here. And I am also excited to be talking to Lori Gottlieb. Lori Gottlieb is a psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author of maybe youe Should Talk to Someone which has sold more than 3 million copies. In addition to her clinical practice, she is also co host of the popular Dear Therapist podcast and writes the Ask the Therapist column for the New York Times. Hello Laurie.
- [02:38]
Lori Gottlieb
So great to be here. Gretchen.
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Gretchen Rubin
Well, it's so fun to be here today to talk to you too about the state of romance. So in fiction, Stacey, that's your lane. The reality of it, Laurie, that's your lane. And then where the two of these meet in our daily lives. And I think we all have some stock ideas of what romance looks like, but Today, let's talk about what romance really means today in our modern lives in 2025. Let's get into it. The mysteries and science of attraction, maintaining passion, Practical suggestions for making and keeping connections, and what we value most these days in our most intimate lives. And let's start with fiction with Stacy. I am someone who loves fiction, and I really place tremendous value on the role of fiction in our lives. We can learn so much about human nature by studying novels. Plus, what is more fun than reading nothing? So, Stacy, when you think about building romance into your stories, how do you think think about that element?
- [03:32]
Stacey Abrams
I always start with what's the most honest way to connect people, Especially when you're writing suspense, which is what I write. Whether I'm writing romantic suspense or legal thrillers, I'm already suspending disbelief about what's happening around them. People don't get shot at this often by, you know, nefarious third parties or being threatened by rogue AI. So the question is, if you're going to create a human relationship, it has to feel so grounded that the absurdities make sense. And starting there means having characters that you know well enough to understand. What do they like, what don't they like, and what do they need? And often romance is about finding someone who is what you need, but that you are something that they need and constructing a novel. You have to think about how do you unravel and reveal each of those pieces and set it up so that it happens in between, you know, mayhem and torture?
- [04:28]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, when you say what people need, what kind of things do you think of as what people need?
- [04:33]
Stacey Abrams
So, for example, my very first romance novel, it was a spy who basically felt responsible for the death of people around her, including the death of the best friend of the man she was in love with. He was angry with her, had given up his back. He basically abandoned his career because he could not trust. And so she needed to find someone who understood her and could help her forgive herself. And he needed someone who could push him past his suspicions and his instinctive rejection of support. And so they had to find each other, but they had to navigate the fact that maybe, sort of, she killed his best friend and they had to save the world while they were doing it.
- [05:14]
Gretchen Rubin
Right? So by a need. It's very specific. That's so interesting.
- [05:17]
Stacey Abrams
I will say it's typically a core need that we, if we were told to articulate it, we could, but it would take talking to Lori first and laying on a couch. But you can usually tell that with most people, people we kind of know with our friends this is a person or this is a gap. And you don't want someone to fill your hole, but you want someone who helps you understand how to make yourself better. So I'm also very intentional about never having the solution to a problem be another person. It's having another person help my main character find their own solution.
- [05:49]
Gretchen Rubin
Interesting. Now, have you noticed a shift in what readers expect from romance in fiction today as opposed to like 10 years or 20 years ago? Are there certain tropes or themes that fall in and out of favor that you've noticed?
- [06:02]
Stacey Abrams
I mean, certainly in the early 80s, early 90s, hypermasculinity was a big part of the romance novel genre. We've seen that hypermasculinity necessarily be reduced in part because it often was a cloak for non consent or for an aggressive approach to romance. That was a bit of a shorthand. I don't have to deal with my issues because I could just sweep you up in an embrace and tell you who you need to be. But I think it's also women, because I write from a woman's perspective. It's making sure that the women who are at the center of the novels have as much agency in who they want to be with as they do in the fact that they're gonna fall in love and what they do with their daily lives.
- [06:47]
Gretchen Rubin
And just back to sort of what you were saying before about you wanna write something that feels real and that people can really identify with, but you're in these tremendously heightened circumstances that most of us do not face and seem sort of extreme. How do you balance that idea of the fantastical or the idealized elements in romance, which is part of what people like in romance, and also the sense of realism that people can connect with because we want both things at the same time. That seems hard to manage.
- [07:16]
Stacey Abrams
Well, when I'm writing a suspense novel, my theory is I can write something that is improbable but not impossible. When it comes to romance, you want to write things that are idealized but not absurd, meaning that you are going to have the conversation instead of talking past each other. You are going to confront this instead of pretending you didn't see the note.
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Gretchen Rubin
It's idealized in the sense that people behave better than they would they eventually do.
- [07:43]
Stacey Abrams
They make the mistakes. And you can't follow a journey if there aren't detours. But I try to make certain that you're not screaming at the book. Just do this unless it's. If you're Screaming it to be because you're encouraging, not because you're frustrated and about to throw the book across the room. And I think the fantastical elements that tend to happen are ones where problems get automatically solved or worse, where those problems aren't real and they're just in the heads of the person. That to me. And this goes back to the tropes making sure we no longer dismiss legitimate pain or pretend that legitimate pain can be overcome with a good kiss and.
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Gretchen Rubin
A good romance, like a very easy resolution. You feel like that's not satisfying anymore. That's not giving people the working through of a problem.
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Stacey Abrams
Exactly. They want to join you in the journey, but they want to believe that when they leave you behind and can't come and visit you on Thursday, that you're still gonna be okay. And if you have the sort of. Sort of Damocles of emotional harm hanging out there, I'm gonna be worried about you. So I need to know that you at least now have the tools to navigate once I close the book.
- [08:46]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. When you're trying to build characters that really feel like they're related to each other, you said part of it is that need that they're fulfilling. But what else do you do to make it feel earned and natural? Cause I almost think that this is something that people do look to fiction as kind of a model for. Like, how do people have con? Or, like, how would you handle that moment of engagement? Do you listen to people that you overhear in a coffee shop? How do you listen? So that it has that ring of truth.
- [09:10]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah. So in Coded justice, which is a legal thriller, there is a relationship. Avery Cain, my main character, has a boyfriend that she met in the first book under very dark circumstances, and they're still together, but there's a tension that's developing. There are other people who might like her, and she's got to figure out where does she sit. And so one of the scenes in the book is a conversation that she has first with her best friend. And so I think it's important that you have a broad canvas of people.
- [09:38]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [09:39]
Stacey Abrams
And so, yeah, so I've replicated conversations I've had with girlfriends, girlfriends have had with me where I'm like, you do know what you've said. You do know what that is. And so you know that conversation you have where you're telling what happened from your point of view, and then your best friend's like, you are full of. What did you actually think happened? So I have that kind of scene, and then I have a scene where they actually, they don't directly confront what's happening, but they both know there's something. And so I think before you jump to the resolution, you owe the reader the journey of both sides understanding there's something happening. And so I try to make sure there are small scenes that really signal we all know what we're seeing without there having to be a lot of exposition. Because to your point about conversation, we learn most in dialogue and in writing. It's easier to tell than it is to show. And I try really hard to find ways to show the dynamic. It may be a hand on the small of her back. It may be her leaning her head against his shoulder or bringing him dinner, but it's something that signals that I know something has happened. And in addition to the big conversation we have to have, let's show the small elements of relationship that feel familiar so that when the next terrible, crazy thing happens, I believe enough in you that I'm going to trust you to come back and make it better.
- [10:57]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. And when you're reading and all that is so satisfying to see those small changes happen. That's what gives it that ring of truth. So interesting. Well, coming up, we're going to hear from Lori Gottlieb about the realities of modern relationships that she has observed as a therapist and also in her own life. But before that, I want to say thanks to our sponsor today. Audible. Do you love a captivating love story? Are you hungry for a romance that will transport you to another place and time? You can find whatever you're looking for with Audible. The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every side of you. Do you enjoy a love story featuring a duke or perhaps a sexy entrepreneur? Do you prefer a story set in the excitement of a big city, in the charm of a small town, at a busy ranch or a bustling college campus? Or maybe on a movie set at the beach or by a hockey rink? Do you seek out stories set in the distant past, in the familiar present, or in the remote future? Or maybe nothing on this earth satisfies your imagination and you want to find love in another realm with dragons? Maybe you love a story in which friends become lovers or enemies become lovers. Or maybe you love a story of a second chance or forced proximity or a love triangle. That's one of my favorites. I love a good love triangle. You can find all those stories and more with Audible. With Audible, you can hear modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu, the latest romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas And Rebecca Yarros Regency favorites like the new Audible original, Pride and Prejudice, plus all the really steamy stuff. When it comes to what romance you're into, you can find anything and everything you're looking for with Audible. Audible is the leading creator and provider of premium audio storytelling. Audible excites the imagination with stories and ideas that open you up to more possibilities. Listening can change your mood, your life, maybe even the world. Listening gives you a break from the everyday and allows you to dream bigger. And if you've never listened on Audible before, here is a great deal for you. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial@Audible.com. that's right. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial@Audible.com and now let's turn to some observations and insights from Laurie. And then we'll have a conversation with all three of us at the end. But first, Laurie, you deal with people. I'm sure relationships come up all the time. What do you think are some of the major misconceptions about romance that people have these days? Maybe from their own upbringing, Maybe it's from the media, maybe it's from fiction. Do we have any ideas that just aren't very helpful?
- [13:54]
Lori Gottlieb
Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones is that people think romance needs to be really big. Like the grand romantic gesture. And sometimes the most romantic thing is the really small thing. It's like what Stacey was saying. Like, did the person put their hand on the small of your back when you were entering a restaurant? The little things that they notice about you, there's such an intimacy around just being noticed and understood. And so a romantic gesture is just maybe something a little bit unexpected because we need a little mystery to it, but that happens to come from a grounded place and not a let's do this huge thing and that's gonna be romantic. It doesn't feel personal and it doesn't feel like you're really known. So the more that the gesture includes something very specific about you makes it incredibly romantic.
- [14:43]
Gretchen Rubin
So you think people have this kind of idea that you need to have this promposal Instagram grand gesture with a hundred roses or something. Whereas in fact, what really makes people feel loved and seen is when you're like, oh, I saw your favorite super random flavor of ice cream in the drugstore and so I brought some home for you.
- [15:01]
Lori Gottlieb
Yes, yes. Or it's like, you know, I'm gonna make this dessert that I know you love, but it's a surprise. And you come in from a day at work and you were not expecting that. And that's incredibly romantic. So it feels, it seems like it's domestic, but it's actually romantic.
- [15:14]
Gretchen Rubin
Is there anything else? Any other kind of big watch outs that's very useful to think about both on the receiving end and on the giving end. I would say, I think that people.
- [15:22]
Lori Gottlieb
Put too much pressure on the need for romance. So romance comes organically. The best romance is something that naturally happens. Of course, you have to be intentional about it, but you don't want to put pressure. So when they're holiday like Valentine's Day, everybody's trying so hard to be romantic. And most people end up saying, I had the worst time at this restaurant with, you know, it was like this beautiful restaurant, but it didn't feel romantic at all, you know, or the flowers or this or that. There's sort of these expectations of these symbols, like has to be flowers or jewelry or whatever these symbols are of romance that don't tend to really speak to, I think what can be an elevated sense of romance. It reminds me, I had this couple and the woman was saying to her husband, you know what the most romantic words you could say to me? You know what? Three words I would really like to hear more. And he of course said, I love you. I need to say I love you more. She said, no, it's, I understand you. She's like, that is so romantic when you say I understand you. It's so intimate to be understood fully by this person that you're, you know, that you have this chemistry with.
- [16:29]
Gretchen Rubin
Well now when people are so busy, there's so much pressure, there's so many demands on our time. Do you think people give priority to their romantic relationships these days? Do you think that is something? I mean, people are certainly drawn to reading about romance. They love reading about romance. Do you think that in their own lives they're making it a priority?
- [16:45]
Lori Gottlieb
I think they aren't making it a priority as much as they could. I think that's why, partly why Stacy's books, which are excellent anyway, but I think that's why people want to read about it because they feel like, wait a minute, I need more of that. That's missing in my life. And so I think that people need to think, think more about it. But again, in these smaller ways. I love what Stacy said earlier about sort of the intersection of mayhem and torture, which I thought was an apt description of romance. Right. So it's, it's, it's like, you want it to be something that feels different and exciting, but, you know, like, when you're in the beginning of a relationship and it feels so romantic because you're like, will this person call me? Do they like me? What's going to happen next? Are we going to kiss on this date? You know what's going to happen? Are we going to end up in bed together? It's all that sort of the torture of, like, waiting between dates, and then there's the mayhem of just. It takes you out of your everyday life. So I think when people want to focus on romancing, do you think what would take us out of our everyday life right now? Like, it could be the simplest thing of let's go dancing. We don't do that. And like, let's just go dancing. Right. It's the simplest thing or even things that make you feel like doing something that does not feel like your daily thing. Like, let's go to an amusement park and have this scary experience on a roller coaster.
- [18:01]
Gretchen Rubin
That research that shows that if a couple does something that elevates their heart rate, they read it as emotional excitement, even though it's just like, no, that's just roller coaster. But you kind of fake it.
- [18:10]
Lori Gottlieb
Right. And you're also, you're in this heightened state. And I think, you know, it's when you're doing an activity. So, you know, a lot of people.
- [18:17]
Gretchen Rubin
Say, well, like, fighting crime.
- [18:21]
Lori Gottlieb
Exactly. You have to really up the ante there.
- [18:23]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah.
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Lori Gottlieb
But I do think that some people will say, oh, it's really romantic if we're, like, sitting on the couch watching Netflix. And it can be really romantic if the mood is right and you have the setting right. But it's also really romantic to do something completely out of both of your ordinary experiences, you know, like going on the roller coasters or taking a dance class or whatever it is.
- [18:45]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, speaking of torture and mayhem, let's talk about the dating apps and online interactions. How has that changed the way people develop a romantic connection these days? Is it making it easier to fast track to intimacy? It's kind of a different courtship. How do you see that playing out?
- [19:02]
Lori Gottlieb
I think it's. It's much less romantic. So, so many of my therapy clients are using the dating apps and they're all talking about how they're missing that element of courtship. They're missing that element of, first of all, discovery, getting to know someone. You know, you've got all this information on an app and then you project onto it. It's like, oh, this person Likes this music. That means they must be like this kind of person. And so you have all this kind of preloaded information. But also there's not a lot of focus on one person because people will go on a date, they will say, oh, I had a pretty good time. And then they go home, and there's more notifications on their app, and they're like, what about this person? What about this person? And so it becomes more job interviewing than it does looking for being curious about another person and seeing who they are. And that the excitement. There's a romance of discovering who another person is. And when you feel like, well, I'm just looking at these profiles, it's like looking at a lot of resumes, and it feels like people are looking at your resume, and it doesn't feel like there's that intangible je ne sais quoi that's happening between the two of you.
- [20:05]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, it just makes it much harder. Well, what are some unspoken rules or expectations that seem to govern modern romance that might have been different in previous generations? Are there different rules? Are people confused about how to go forward?
- [20:20]
Lori Gottlieb
I think that the rules would be more helpful. So people went through this phase where they rebelled against the rules. There are so many books that say, throw out the rules. Right. And there are certain rules you don't want to have because they're kind of manipulative and passive aggressive. But I think certain rules, like, if you're not interested in someone, don't ghost them. Those kinds of rules.
- [20:39]
Gretchen Rubin
Right.
- [20:40]
Lori Gottlieb
People think that there are no rules at all. And so then people get very hurt. People don't know what to expect. People don't know what is expected of them. Yes, someone might be interested in you, or you might be interested in them, and you think, well, am I supposed to wait a day? Am I not supposed to wait a day? Well, they think I'm not interested if I, you know, wait too long or I don't wait long enough. Do I feel pathetic and desperate to them? So, you know, people don't know what the rules are. And I think it's kind of like what we need is an aquarium. So before there was kind of a fishbowl, the rules were too constrictive. And then it just became an ocean where nobody knows what they're doing and everyone's kind of lost, just swimming around. And I think we need more of an aquarium where it's. These are the conventions that most people go by, and it kind of gives you a sense of understanding. Well, what does the person mean by that or can we communicate this in this way?
- [21:29]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, it's funny that you say that because I took a watercolor class and the teacher was so committed to saying that there are no rules and there's no right way and wrong way. That when somebody was asking about three point perspective, she was just like, clearly there is a way to do that where it looks like you have perspective. And yet she didn't want to say there was a right way to do it. And I was like, it's okay. You can say this is the rule for how to like draw that way. But I think there is this feeling like there should be no rules, but then you don't know how to behave properly. And I wonder, Stacey, do you think that this is part of why fiction is satisfying? Because it is a universe where you sort of understand, it feels more understandable why people are doing what they're doing. And you are sort of in this place where you do understand the rules or the universe that you're in. Whereas now it's like you're playing by your rules. Somebody's got their own rules. It's hard to navigate.
- [22:16]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah, I mean, part of it is there's the rule that it's romance, which helps constrain. I mean, to Laurie's point about the fishbowl in the ocean, you at least want to know that you're in water.
- [22:26]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah, yeah. I was talking to a guy where he was like, oh, I'm always friends with women, they always wanna be friends with me. But he didn't wanna use dating apps. And somebody's like, but the thing about a dating app is you can say, I'm looking for a long term relationship and they'll know that's what you want. Cause you keep getting friend zoned. You need to tell people that you're looking for romance.
- [22:43]
Stacey Abrams
Exactly. And part of writing romance, well, is being clear about the intention, even if the person doesn't intend to fall in love. But you know that. So you're on the journey of discovery when they realize they're wrong or the person is looking for love and you're with them as they stumble through. But it gives the reader a reason to stay. And I think to Lori's point, if you don't have a reason to be there, you don't have a reason to stay. And that's where rules help. They help give us at least guardrails help. Otherwise you're falling off the side of bridges and you can't figure. I'm sorry, I'm extending the Metaphor way too far for a writer. But you do want the ability to have some. Not constraint on who you are, but some guardrails so that you also have guides for where you're trying to get to.
- [23:29]
Gretchen Rubin
Right. Well, do you think both of you tackle this? Do you think that there is a way that fictional portrayals of romance help people understand their own relationships or navigate their own relationships? I mean, even if they are somewhat idealized. But do you think it does help people make sense of what they're experiencing? Or do you think that maybe because it's idealized, does it raise their expectations too high? What do you think?
- [23:53]
Stacey Abrams
So I'm gonna let Lori tell me if I'm messing up people's lives first, and then I'll tell you what I think, okay?
- [23:58]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, yeah. Okay.
- [23:59]
Lori Gottlieb
I think that people might have unrealistic expectations, but I also think that at least they're getting some sense of what that excitement can look like, you know, especially for people in today's world where they don't get a lot of romance, where they can say, oh, you know what? I would like some of that in my life. I would like to be more intentional about getting some of that in my life. And I think the other thing that Stacy said was about how we don't want to complete another person, but another person can help us become complete by motivating us to fill in the gaps in our own lives. And so there's this saying, we marry our unfinished business. That we definitely are. You know, that chemistry when we talk about romance, that chemistry initially is often a little bit of there's something that's kind of unfinished in you, and you kind of see it in the other person, and they kind of see it in you. And there's this chemical explosion that happens. Now, coming back to reality, then when you get together, you have to see, well, is this the kind of a healthy, unfinished business that we can help each other with and help each other grow? Or is this something where we're trying to get the other person to complete us? But I love what fiction does, and fiction kind of shows us the ways in which we can have a healthy version of that.
- [25:13]
Gretchen Rubin
And I wonder sometimes if you see an unhealthy version play out. Maybe that's useful too, because you say, like, oh, I recognize this pattern. Oh, I've had that conversation myself. And let's look how it's playing out in a way that's not good. Well, what do you think, Stacey?
- [25:28]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah, in my novel, Never Tell, it's a. It's My serial killer romance novel. But the intention was to show a young woman who had been in a terrible, toxic relationship trying to find her way. She did not want to fall in love. But there's a scene, one of my favorite scenes to write. She is talking to another young woman who has had a similar background and similar experience. And she says something to the effect of, you know, I can believe in you, for you, until you can believe in yourself. And there's something about romance that lets us believe that the possibility is out there, even if we can't see it right now. It's waiting for us. And I think the fictionalized version is a renewal system. It says as long as people are writing about romance, as long as they are talking about what's possible, it gives us the sense that maybe the look and the search can go on. The hardship is when we forget that we are not those characters, and we expect the other person in the relationship to respond the way the character did in the book.
- [26:28]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [26:29]
Stacey Abrams
And so part of your responsibility is to recognize that we may have read the book, but the other person hasn't. And so we've got to have some grace for that. But we also have to remember that we're not that idealized character either. And I think where fiction can be so helpful is it's a mirror to who we are and are not, but it's also a roadmap to what else we want to be.
- [26:49]
Gretchen Rubin
Do you think that that does happen sometimes where people almost are like, I'll play this character and you'll play that character. Like, I'll say my lines. Now you need to say your lines. But that's not how relationships work in real life. And yet you can get sort of drawn into this thinking of, there are sort of a play that could be played out. I've seen that in my own life with people. And it's just like, you're not both in the same play.
- [27:13]
Lori Gottlieb
Also, I think there's something to remember that our partners will disappoint us and we will disappoint them. And so, you know, I think when people have this romantic checklist of I want all these qualities and the person has to be like this, and they have to know what to say, and they have to be charming and funny in every moment. Well, first of all, not realistic. But also, it's not just what is on your list. I'll say to people, okay, so that's your list of what you want. Make a list now of all the things that someone would have to put up With. To be with you.
- [27:42]
Gretchen Rubin
Ooh, that is a great exercise.
- [27:44]
Lori Gottlieb
Because then you have a little more grace for the other person. It's that, you know, you also are a human being, and you also have things that might not be in their script of romance either. And yet what I think is great about romance is that it transcends those things that people then say, look, I'm not perfect, you're not perfect. We don't hold each other to these perfect standards. And there's something incredibly romantic about. And I love you deeply and for all of who you are, including that, and, you know, all the other good parts. So it's not just like with romance. I think where people get kind of tripped up is they think only the good parts are part of it. But there's something so romantic about being loved for the entirety of who you are, which might not fit into the rubric of what you would maybe put on a list of what's romantic.
- [28:30]
Stacey Abrams
I mean, one of the things I use in my novels is just always in the back of my head is the line from the musical Rent. You know, I've got baggage. You've got baggage. I'm looking for baggage that goes with mine.
- [28:41]
Gretchen Rubin
Oh, yes, and I misquoted.
- [28:43]
Stacey Abrams
So I've got baggage. You've got baggage, too. Anyway, yeah, there's a purist who's gonna be mad at me. But the whole point is that last line. I'm looking for baggage that goes with mine. And to Laurie's point, part of it is we've got to acknowledge our own baggage. And I think the richest characters that I write, the books I love and go back to, the baggage of the characters is what I'm wanting. I wanna see what you've done wrong. I wanna know how I can map differently. But it also is a reminder that it's okay that I'm a little broken. And I don't need you to fix me. I just need you to recognize that the broken pieces are there and that I'm still worth the investment.
- [29:19]
Gretchen Rubin
I think some of the most exciting and transcendent moments of connection, either that I've seen in novels or in television shows, movies, plays, is when there is a moment where you can see that someone is making a choice of how to respond. And they're sort of like, are they gonna respond the way they've always responded, or are they now going to see that there is a possibility to make a bigger choice and to do something with more grace and love? And then when they do that. And yet, Stacey, back to Your point is, like, it has to feel earned. It has to feel like somebody would actually do in the moment. But when they make that choice, it does make you feel like there is a possibility for more love in the world. There is an opportunity for people to make a different choice that is the more loving choice. And, Laurie, I imagine you see these moments in your work, and it's just whenever you encounter them in life, in fiction, it's like, that is what is so exciting.
- [30:09]
Lori Gottlieb
I think there's something I often say with couples, which is, before you say something, imagine how it's going to land on the other person. And there's something about those moments where the person couldn't do it, couldn't do it, couldn't do it. And then you see it happen right in front of you, where all of a sudden they make a different choice and they say it a different way, and you see the result in the partner, because we're all doing this dance. And so if you change your dance steps, the other person's gonna change their dance steps, or else they're going to fall off the dance floor or leave the dance floor. And so when you make that twist, when you imagine, what is it going to feel like when I say this, how is it going to land on the other person? They're going to have a totally different reaction to you, too.
- [30:48]
Gretchen Rubin
And I'm sure you practically see, like, a light bulb going on over their head, you know? Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things that surprised me most, like in writing about happiness, is we can't change other people. But when I change, a relationship changes. And when a relationship changes, the atmosphere around us changes. And so sometimes we do change other people just by changing ourselves.
- [31:08]
Lori Gottlieb
What I like to say is we can't change other people, but we can influence other people to change. Mm.
- [31:13]
Gretchen Rubin
Mm.
- [31:14]
Stacey Abrams
There you go.
- [31:15]
Gretchen Rubin
Stacey, do you think that reading romance novels makes people more loving, or do you think sometimes people just read it for just the joy of it and they. It doesn't really sink in? Or both, maybe. I'm just curious.
- [31:26]
Stacey Abrams
I think it's both. I think when you read a really good romance novel that has rich characters who have earned their joy, but who have also changed in a way that feels authentic and accessible, it stays with you because the book stays with you, that character stays with you. And it's hard to have something living in your head that doesn't influence who you are. So I don't think it's these seismic moments, but I do think there's influence and for people for whom it's just a skim and move, they're not really diving deep so that you're not going to see a lot of changes. But at least during the times they're reading, they're not out there being mean. So there's that.
- [32:03]
Gretchen Rubin
And Laurie, what do you think? Do you think that reading romance can help people to see, like, a different path?
- [32:09]
Lori Gottlieb
I think there's something really hopeful about reading romance.
- [32:11]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [32:12]
Lori Gottlieb
I think we really need that sense of hope.
- [32:14]
Gretchen Rubin
It's hopeful. That's a really good word for it.
- [32:17]
Lori Gottlieb
So, yes, the characters are idealized and they're saying the right things eventually, you know, as they go through their journeys. But I also think it gives us hope that we can change, too, that we can have something different, that if we are more aware, we can maybe have the kind of thing that we want with a partner. So I find them incredibly hopeful.
- [32:36]
Gretchen Rubin
Okay, last question for each of you. I always like to ask guests if they have a try this at home suggestion for listeners, something simple and concrete that they could do in their everyday lives to make their lives, in this case, more romantic, to bring more romance into their lives. So, Stacy, do you have a suggestion?
- [32:52]
Stacey Abrams
So I talk about the four quadrants that Dwight Eisenhower had. Things that are important and urgent. Things that are important but not urgent. Things that are urgent but not important. But my favorite section is the not important, not urgent. We rarely let ourselves go there. And I think that's like at least once a week. Make certain that you and your partner are doing something that's not important and not urgent. And if you don't have a partner, do it for yourself so that you're ready when you meet someone because you've given yourself this chance to decompress. You didn't change anything. You didn't help anybody, and that was perfectly okay.
- [33:25]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, and you're not marching through a to do list or like racing around a hardware store. You just. Let's just stroll down the street and.
- [33:33]
Stacey Abrams
Exactly.
- [33:33]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah. I love that because everybody talks about the other quadrants, but nobody talks about that quadrant.
- [33:38]
Stacey Abrams
I am a firm believer in not important and not urgent.
- [33:41]
Gretchen Rubin
I love that. Lori, how about you?
- [33:43]
Lori Gottlieb
First of all, I love that so much.
- [33:45]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [33:46]
Lori Gottlieb
Not important, not urgent. I'm taking it.
- [33:47]
Gretchen Rubin
I feel like that needs to be a mug. Yeah.
- [33:49]
Lori Gottlieb
Yes.
- [33:49]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [33:50]
Lori Gottlieb
And a life practice.
- [33:52]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [33:52]
Lori Gottlieb
I think that something that people undervalue about romance is the sense of being delighted in by the other person.
- [34:00]
Gretchen Rubin
Yes.
- [34:00]
Lori Gottlieb
There's that sense of this person is just delighted to be with me. And I'm just delighted to be with that other person. But we forget that in our daily lives. You know, we're like going through things, you know, we. We know the other person loves us.
- [34:12]
Gretchen Rubin
Right.
- [34:12]
Lori Gottlieb
But do they delight in us? So some things that my therapy clients have found is that when they do something that shows their delight, it's the smallest thing. You know, I delight in the way that they laugh when this happens. Right. And you really make it clear that you delight in that, in that moment. I think just sharing how much you delight in the other person, the smallest thing, it doesn't. Does not expensive. It's not a big deal. You don't have to plan it. It just when you notice yourself delighting in your partner, communicate that it just changes the entire environment in the room. And I think it's something that we don't share enough. We might be thinking it, but we don't actually share it. And even if you don't have a partner, when do you delight in yourself? What are those moments when you delight in yourself? Can you take a moment and say, that was delightful? I really love that about myself?
- [35:03]
Gretchen Rubin
Well, I love that we're ending on the notes of delight and not urgent and not important. That sounds just so enticing. So thank you, Lori. Thank you, Stacy. And that is it for this Romance Roundtable episode of Happier. Thank you to Stacy Abrams and Lori Gottlieb for this terrific conversation. It was so much fun. Thanks to our producer Chuck Reed and to Audible. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. Thanks for listening to the Romance Roundtable, which was brought to you exclusively by Audible. Do you love a good love story? The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every side of you. You may love a story about a dalliance with a duke or perhaps a sexy entrepreneur. You may love one set in the big city or at the hockey rink or in another realm with dragons. Hear modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu. Romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarros. Regency favorites like the new Audible original Pride and Prejudice, plus the really steamy stuff. Your first great love story is free when you sign up For a free 30 day trial at audible.com go to audible.com from the Onward Project.