Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin

Episode: More Happier: Talking Romance Writing with Stacey Abrams and Lori Gottlieb
Date: August 23, 2025
Host: Gretchen Rubin
Guests: Stacey Abrams (author/political leader, pen name Selena Montgomery) and Lori Gottlieb (psychotherapist, author)

Brief Overview

This special "Romance Roundtable" episode dives into the complexities and joys of romance, both in fiction and real life. Gretchen Rubin hosts a lively discussion with bestselling romance novelist Stacey Abrams and psychotherapist Lori Gottlieb. They explore how romance is built in stories, what makes it meaningful in reality, shifting tropes and expectations, and practical advice for enriching romantic connections. The conversation is candid, warm, and insightful, blending literary craft, psychological depth, and real-world wisdom.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Building Realistic Romance in Fiction (03:32-10:56)

• Stacey Abrams discusses how she crafts romantic connections amidst suspenseful plots:
  • Honesty of Connection: Even in improbable settings, relationships must feel grounded and emotionally real.
  • Needs & Agency: Characters should meet each other's needs but not "complete" each other; growth comes from within, with supportive partners.
  • Shifting Tropes: Modern romance readers expect less hypermasculinity and more agency for women.
  • Balancing Fantastical vs. Realism:

    "I can write something that is improbable but not impossible... you want to write things that are idealized but not absurd." (07:15, Stacey Abrams)

  • Small Gestures: Meaningful relationships are built on small, familiar moments (a hand on the back, bringing dinner), not just dramatic declarations.

2. The Reality of Modern Romance (13:54-23:13)

• Lori Gottlieb shares observations from her therapy work:
  • The Power of Small Acts:

    "Sometimes the most romantic thing is the really small thing. There's such an intimacy around just being noticed and understood." (13:54, Lori Gottlieb)

  • Beware of Pressure: Heightened expectations around occasions (like Valentine’s Day) often diminish real romance.

    "Romance comes organically... you don't want to put pressure." (15:21, Lori Gottlieb)

  • The Misconception of Grand Gestures: Real intimacy grows from personalized, thoughtful attention, not planned spectacles.
  • Prioritizing Romance: Despite loving stories about romance, many don't make it a priority in their own lives.

3. Discovery, Risk, and Excitement (16:28-18:23)

• Novelty and Excitement:
  • Engaging in new or heart-racing activities (like dancing or an amusement park) sparks connection.
  • The discomfort/mayhem at the start of relationships is a source of thrill and anticipation.
• Stacey Abrams calls romance "the intersection of mayhem and torture," capturing its unpredictability and excitement.

4. Dating Apps & New Norms (18:44-21:29)

• Dating Apps: Lori discusses how apps have made romance feel transactional and less serendipitous:
  • "It becomes more job interviewing than it does looking for being curious about another person..." (19:01, Lori Gottlieb)
  • Discovery and curiosity are stunted by preset profiles and unlimited options.
• Modern Rules:
  • People are confused because traditional "rules" of romance have been discarded but not replaced with better conventions.
  • Lack of clear expectations leads to miscommunications, e.g., ghosting.

5. The Value and Pitfalls of Fictional Romance (23:28-28:30)

• Do romance novels help or hinder real-life relationships?
  • Fiction shows both healthy and unhealthy patterns, acting as a mirror and a roadmap.
  • It's important to remember that real partners and ourselves are not fictional characters—we have to "have some grace" for imperfection.
  • Quote Highlight:

    "It’s a mirror to who we are and are not, but it’s also a roadmap to what else we want to be." (26:28, Stacey Abrams)

• Managing Disappointment & Imperfection:
  • Partners will inevitably disappoint; listing not only what you want but what others tolerate in you promotes empathy.

6. Baggage, Grace, and Earned Growth (28:30-32:35)

• "Looking for baggage that goes with mine":
  • Accepting and acknowledging imperfections in ourselves and others makes relationships deeper and more romantic.
  • The most moving fictional and real moments come when someone chooses to act with grace and break old, unhelpful patterns.
• Changing Yourself Changes Relationships:

  • "We can’t change other people, but we can influence other people to change." (31:07, Lori Gottlieb & Gretchen Rubin)

7. Do Romance Novels Make People More Loving? (31:14-32:35)

• Influence of Reading Romance:
  • Deep, well-written romances can subtly influence how readers approach their own relationships.
  • Even if the effect is temporary, reading hopeful narratives offers a sense of possibility.

  • "There’s something really hopeful about reading romance." (32:08, Lori Gottlieb)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Character Growth in Fiction:

  "I'm also very intentional about never having the solution to a problem be another person. It's having another person help my main character find their own solution."
  — Stacey Abrams (05:16)

• On Modern Romance Expectations:

  "You don't want someone to fill your hole, but you want someone who helps you understand how to make yourself better."
  — Stacey Abrams (05:16)

• On Small Romantic Gestures:

  "It's like what Stacey was saying. Like, did the person put their hand on the small of your back when you were entering a restaurant?"
  — Lori Gottlieb (13:54)

• On Communicating Delight:

  "When you notice yourself delighting in your partner, communicate that. It just changes the entire environment in the room."
  — Lori Gottlieb (34:00)

Timestamps & Segment Highlights

• 03:32: Stacey Abrams on grounding romance amidst heightened plots.
• 06:02: Discussion of shifting expectations and tropes in modern romance fiction.
• 07:15: Balancing the fantastical (“idealized but not absurd”).
• 13:54: Lori Gottlieb on the romance of small, personal acts.
• 15:21: The problem with “forced” romance (holidays, big gestures).
• 18:44: The impact of dating apps on romantic connection.
• 20:19: The need for new “rules” or conventions.
• 23:28: Gretchen explores fiction’s dual role in expectation-setting and guidance.
• 26:28: Stacey reflects on fiction as both a mirror and roadmap.
• 28:30: The value of embracing each other's “baggage.”
• 31:07: How changing yourself can shift a relationship dynamic.
• 32:52: Stacey’s practical advice: Do things that are "not important and not urgent."
• 33:52: Lori’s advice: Show your delight in your partner (or yourself).

Practical Suggestions ("Try This at Home") (32:52-35:02)

• Stacey Abrams:
  • Once a week (alone or with a partner), do something “not important and not urgent” to nurture joy and connection.

    “We rarely let ourselves go there...I am a firm believer in not important and not urgent.” (33:37)

• Lori Gottlieb:
  • Regularly show your partner (or yourself) real delight—call out and appreciate moments of happiness or affection, big or small.

    “When you notice yourself delighting in your partner, communicate that...We might be thinking it, but we don’t actually share it.” (34:00)

Overall Tone & Closing Thoughts

The conversation is insightful, practical, and encouraging. All three women agree that while fictional romance can inspire realistic hope and helpful models, true connection is built on mutual growth, empathy, small gestures, and the willingness to move beyond perfectionistic expectations. Both guests emphasize the importance of self-reflection, intentionality, and honest communication in nurturing romance—both in stories and real life.

"There’s something really hopeful about reading romance."
— Lori Gottlieb (32:08)

"As long as people are writing about romance… it gives us the sense that maybe the look and the search can go on."
— Stacey Abrams (25:28)