More Happier: We Talk Money: Finances, Love, Conflict, Debt, and Self-Knowledge

Summary

Podcast Summary: Happier with Gretchen Rubin – "More Happier: We Talk Money: Finances, Love, Conflict, Debt, and Self-Knowledge"

Episode Information:

• Title: Happier with Gretchen Rubin
• Host/Author: Gretchen Rubin / The Onward Project
• Description: Gretchen Rubin, author of The Happiness Project and Better Than Before, shares practical advice on happiness and good habits alongside her sister, Elizabeth Craft. In this episode, they delve into the intricate relationship between money and happiness with special guest Ramit Sethi.
• Release Date: March 15, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of More Happier, Gretchen Rubin and her co-host Elizabeth Craft engage in a deep conversation with renowned personal finance expert Ramit Sethi. The discussion centers around the emotional complexities of money within relationships, exploring themes such as financial conflict, debt management, and self-awareness.

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Ramit Sethi: Introducing "Money for Couples"

[06:22] Gretchen Rubin:
Gretchen introduces Ramit Sethi, highlighting his new book, Money for Couples, which addresses the emotional aspects of finances in relationships.

[06:53] Ramit Sethi:
Ramit defines a "rich life" as highly personal, encompassing everything from traveling extensively to enjoying simple daily pleasures like picking up children from school. He emphasizes that money should be used to tailor life to one's unique definition of richness.

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The Emotional Landscape of Money in Relationships

Shared Anxieties and Cultural Beliefs

[08:05] Ramit Sethi:
Ramit discusses the "tortured love-hate relationship" many Americans have with money. While there's a love for spending on desirable items, a deep-seated puritanical belief equates wealth with evil, leading to anxiety and stress around financial matters.

[09:06] Gretchen Rubin:
Gretchen finds Ramit's term "scattered beliefs" particularly apt, noting how conflicting and often subconscious beliefs about money can strain relationships.

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Understanding Money Types

Ramit outlines four distinct money personalities, offering couples a framework to better understand and communicate about their financial behaviors.

1. Avoider

   • Description: Individuals who consciously or unconsciously avoid discussing money, often deferring to their partners.
   • Example Quote:
     [13:13] Ramit Sethi: "Avoiders can avoid because, in part, somebody else is dealing with it."

2. Worrier

   • Description: Those who are perpetually anxious about finances, often tracing these fears back to parental influences.
   • Example Quote:
     [14:19] Gretchen Rubin: "Do you think you'll actually stop worrying then?"

3. Optimizer

   • Description: People who meticulously manage their finances, often to the point of being frugal or obsessive about details like compound interest.
   • Example Quote:
     [15:03] Ramit Sethi: "Just shut up, let's go have a nice dinner."

4. Dreamer

   • Description: Visionaries who invest in their dreams, sometimes neglecting practical financial responsibilities.
   • Example Quote:
     [16:00] Ramit Sethi: "They are subsidized by a parent or by a partner."

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Effective Communication Strategies

Initiating Positive Conversations About Money

[10:50] Ramit Sethi:
Ramit recommends starting conversations with five simple steps:

1. Express Excitement: Share why you want to discuss money positively.
2. Share Feelings: Communicate your emotions related to financial discussions.
3. State Desired Emotions: Explain how you wish to feel during these conversations.
4. Set a Time for Future Talks: Schedule the next discussion to keep the dialogue open.

[11:46] Ramit Sethi:
"Have a first positive conversation about money... tell them why you're excited."

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Debt Management and Financial Clarity

Facing Financial Realities

[27:58] Ramit Sethi:
Ramit emphasizes that 90% of people in debt are unaware of their total obligations. His advice for navigating debt includes:

1. Assess Your Debt: Contact creditors to determine exact balances and interest rates.
2. Create a Payoff Plan: Utilize online calculators to develop a strategy, such as making extra payments to reduce debt faster.

[29:21] Gretchen Rubin:
"Spoken like a true optimizer."

Practical Tip:
Ramit suggests that even small additional payments on mortgages can significantly shorten the debt period, offering both financial relief and peace of mind.

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Creating a Shared Vision of a Rich Life

Aligning Financial Goals

[21:48] Ramit Sethi:
Ramit identifies the biggest mistake couples make: lacking a shared vision of a rich life. Without aligning on what they both want, couples often fight over minor expenses.

[23:49] Elizabeth Craft:
She shares a personal example, describing herself as a "worrier" and her husband as an "avoider," highlighting the resultant conflicts when their financial styles clash.

Annual Rich Life Review

[30:59] Ramit Sethi:
Ramit recommends an annual review where couples:

1. Reflect on Memorable Moments: Share past experiences to identify what brings joy.
2. Explore Aspirations: Discuss luxurious, adventurous, relational, and calm aspects they wish to incorporate into the coming year.
3. Identify Habits to Change: Decide on areas to spend more or less, fostering non-judgmental dialogue.
4. Align Real Numbers with Aspirations: Connect their financial reality with their desired lifestyle.

[34:13] Gretchen Rubin:
Acknowledges the importance of Ramit's approach in helping couples realize they can create their own rich life through intentional choices.

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Navigating Finances in Early Relationships

When to Discuss Money

[24:22] Ramit Sethi:
Ramit advises that while it's beneficial to discuss money early on, forcing detailed financial conversations on initial dates can be a red flag. Instead, suggest integrating financial discussions naturally as the relationship progresses.

Red Flags to Watch For:

• Unwillingness to Discuss Finances: If a partner refuses to engage in financial conversations, it signals potential future conflicts.
• Minimizing Financial Issues: Dismissing significant financial disagreements as trivial can prevent meaningful resolution.

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Ramit Sethi’s Insights and Frustrations

Challenges in Facilitating Change

[35:05] Ramit Sethi:
Ramit expresses frustration when couples prepare extensively for financial discussions but resist making actual changes, undermining the progress they initially sought.

[37:34] Ramit Sethi:
He shares a valuable lesson from his Netflix show experience: the role of a facilitator is to allow couples to share their stories, not to enforce transformation. Acceptance that not everyone is ready to change is crucial for genuine progress.

Key Takeaway:
Transformation is most effective when individuals are ready and willing to embrace change, aligning with Gretchen Rubin’s observation: "when the student is ready, the teacher appears."

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

1. Understand Your Money Type:
Recognizing whether you or your partner are avoiders, worriers, optimizers, or dreamers can significantly improve financial communication and reduce conflicts.

2. Initiate Positive Financial Conversations:
Begin discussions with a constructive mindset, focusing on shared goals and emotional well-being rather than blame or stress.

3. Create and Align a Shared Vision:
Define what a rich life means for both partners and align your financial strategies to support that vision, ensuring both feel heard and valued.

4. Address Debt Transparently:
Facing debt head-on by knowing exact figures and developing a clear payoff plan can alleviate anxiety and foster financial stability.

5. Recognize Red Flags Early:
Unwillingness to discuss finances or persistent minimization of financial issues can indicate deeper relational challenges.

6. Embrace Individual Readiness for Change:
Respect that some individuals may not be ready to transform their financial habits, and shift focus to supporting their readiness rather than forcing immediate change.

Notable Quotes:

• Ramit Sethi [07:11]: "Your rich life is yours and you can use money to live it."
• Elizabeth Craft [17:34]: "I think I'm a worrier, and my husband is an avoider."
• Ramit Sethi [21:48]: "The vast majority of couples do not have a shared vision of a rich life."
• Gretchen Rubin [38:37]: "When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of More Happier offers profound insights into the intersection of money and relationships. By understanding different money types, fostering open communication, and aligning financial goals, couples can navigate financial challenges more harmoniously, paving the way for a happier and richer life together.

Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

Guess what? Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard right, 99%. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nelson Report. Learn more at discover.com credit card let's.

[Elizabeth]

Talk about a small thing that can make a big difference if you have diabetes. The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor. It's amazing how the sensor gives you real time glucose readings so you can see the impact of every meal and activity to make better choices.

[Gretchen Rubin]

The Freestyle Libre 3 sensor can help you live life with diabetes on your terms. This is progress. You can try it for free at Freestyle Libre US. Offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply for for prescription only. Safety info found @freestylelibre US.

[Elizabeth]

Lemonade.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hello, we're here for More Happier a podcast where we get more of the happier podcast. It's weekend listening, observations and reflections with a looser vibe. Hi, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth]

Hey, Gretch.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So today we are talking to my old brilliant friend Ramit Sethi about his terrific new book, Money for Couples. So we will be talking about issues related to finances, emotions, debt, and more. And the fact is, money is one of the most emotionally charged sub themes within the larger subject of happiness. So this is gonna be a fascinating conversation. But first, something making us happier. Lizbeth, what's making you happier?

[Elizabeth]

Okay, Gretch, this might be counterintuitive, but what's making me happier is on weekends.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, that is counterintuitive.

[Elizabeth]

Yes. So for years, Sarah and I have not worked weekends. At the beginning of our career, we worked weekends. Then we went years where we said, we don't care what's going on, we're not working weekends. We're drawing a line. Well, now we're doing so much and we're sort of expanding with our Substack newsletter. Just trying to do a whole bunch of things. And so we've decided that we're working weekends, but because we're doing things that are exciting and fun and new, it's making me happier because, you know, I love a challenge and feeling like I'm living in an atmosphere of growth. And I love this idea that we are pursuing something. So it's making me happier.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's interesting. And I've seen this a lot myself, which is sometimes our impulse is to do less. Life will be easier if we do less or we throw things overboard or we get things off the list. But sometimes adding something in is actually more energizing and more fun and makes time feel richer. So feels counterintuitive, but also not counterintuitive.

[Elizabeth]

Okay, Gretch, what about you? What's making you happier?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, well, you know, we have this lake house. And so when I was in Kansas City last, our mother and father showed me a bunch of stuff that they had in storage just on the shelf that they weren't using. And they're like, you know, if you can use any of this stuff, would you like us to send it? So they did. So it's things like serving dishes, things where they still have plenty, but these were things that weren't being used, but we don't have any, so. And it's all really nice because our mother has. Beautiful, beautiful. So it all the boxes arrived, it was like Christmas Day. I'm like opening it up. I didn't really remember what we had talked about and looked at. So it was like, oh, I love this planter thing, some framed things because of course you need to have stuff on the walls. And to me, it feels special if it comes from them. And they were glad to get it off their shelves because they love to clear clutter and open up space. And so if it's just sitting there, some tray where you're like, it's a perfectly good tray. But we have three trays we like better. We use those trays. And now I can use a tray. It's a win.

[Elizabeth]

Yes, everybody wins.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Everybody wins. And then the next time we're all over for Thanksgiving, Elizabeth, you'll be like, oh, I remember that tray.

[Elizabeth]

Yes, I recognize those brass candlesticks.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah, you will see them all again.

[Elizabeth]

All right, Gretch. Coming up, we've got a Get Happier interview with Ramit Sethi. But first, this break.

[Unknown]

Foreign.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.

[Elizabeth]

So, Gretch, as the weather gets warmer, I think a lot of us want to eat lighter meals. And Whole Foods Market has what you're looking for with great everyday prices. I love their365 by Whole Foods Market brand. It's their House brand. And, and it has tons of spring essentials at daily low prices that will really put a little spark to your plate. They have brunch classics like juice, organic bag salad kits. You know, I love a salad kit, smoked salmon, goat cheese and sandwich bread. Plus smoothie ingredients like almond milk and organic frozen fruit blends, which I love to use for jack smoothies.

[Gretchen Rubin]

At Whole Foods Market, you can save every day. Look for the yellow low price signs that help you save money without compromising the quality you expect from Whole Foods Market. Find them with their responsibly farmed Atlantic salmon, no antibiotics ever, ground beef and boneless skinless chicken breasts, plus more throughout the store. Yellow really means savings at Whole Foods Market because their sale signs are also yellow. So basically, wherever you see yellow, you know you're saving money. Save on the best of spring with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market. And now we're going to have a get happier interview with my old old friend, Ramit Sethi. Ramit is the of the Money for couples podcast. He is the host of the Netflix show how to get rich. Amazing that he has a Netflix show.

[Elizabeth]

He's also the New York Times bestselling author of I will teach you to be rich. And he's here to talk about his new book, another New York Times bestseller already money for couples.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So, Ramit, it's so great to see you, my old friend.

[Elizabeth]

Hi Ramit.

[Unknown]

Thanks for having me back.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, well, let's jump into it. So in the past, your focus has been on helping people to live a rich life. Now just very briefly, what is a rich life?

[Unknown]

Well, a rich life can be traveling for two months a year. A rich life can be picking up your kids from school every afternoon. A rich life can be wearing a thousand dollar cashmere coat. The whole point is that your rich life is yours and you can use money to live it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So it's how to use money to make your life happier and healthier and more productive and more creative and more satisfying. So, yep, yeah, with the new book and with the podcast, you are focusing on money and couples and that is full of a lot of emotion. It's a big topic.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah. I was saying to Gretchen, even just looking at the COVID of your book and reading the title makes my heart pound a little bit.

[Unknown]

Really?

[Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

It's called Money for couples. No more stress, no more fights.

[Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Just a ten step plan to create your rich life together. What does that make you feel?

[Elizabeth]

It makes me like feel a little sweaty because it's just, it's very Intimidating. Talk or think about money with your partner. Or for some of us, it is.

[Unknown]

Why?

[Elizabeth]

That's a good question. I mean, you tell us, why do people find this? I know. It's not just me, right?

[Unknown]

It's not just you. It's really common. First off, we have a tortured love hate relationship with money in this country. We love it in the sense that we love seeing pictures of people in Tahiti on a Wednesday. We love spending money on delivery and houses and cars. But we also have a very strong puritanical streak that runs through this country, which is the rich are evil and I'm bad and I need to control myself or have somebody set rules. Otherwise I will run free and run wild. So imagine that as an individual, we have this belief about money. We don't really have a philosophy. Most of us don't develop a philosophy. Then we get married and it's one person plus one person who also has these scattered beliefs. And you try to combine them and figure out how much did you spend on a new house or a car? That is very difficult.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I like that phrase, scattered beliefs.

[Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Because a lot of things can be true. Some of them are probably in conflict. A lot of them are kind of unconscious or habits formed in childhood that you don't even know you have.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Very elusive.

[Unknown]

Very. I ask. In fact, I ask couples. I will ask them a few questions that are quite illuminating. I'll ask them, what do you remember your family saying about money when you grew up? And can you guess the most common response that people's parents said?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Nothing.

[Elizabeth]

Nothing.

[Unknown]

Nothing is. Is very common. Yes. Correct. That's the most common. The next is, we can't afford that. So imagine you hear that one times, ten times, a thousand times, and by the time you leave that house, you truly believe that the only relationship with money is one of scarcity. I talk to many of these people later in life. They're in their 30s or 40s. Some of them have done very well professionally. They have a lot of money. I actually look at all of their numbers when I'm on the podcast. Income, debt, expenses, all of it is there. You would be shocked. First of all, 50% of people don't even know their own household income. 55. 0. It's no wonder we feel anxious about money. We don't even know the basic numbers. Second, many of them feel intense scarcity. I'm talking about people who can afford things. How many multimillionaires have I talked to on my podcast who are obsessed about the price of berries? Agonizing over blueberries. It's because if you trace it back, we can't afford it is one of the guiding principles of their life.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So if you were going to talk about sort of a first step to help people begin grappling with money, do you think just getting the basics of what's the combined income? What is our debt just getting.

[Unknown]

No, no, I wouldn't start there. That's way too complicated.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay.

[Unknown]

See, we intuitively believe that money is just numbers on a page. And if you've ever seen adults react when you talk about Math, it's like 95% of them will go, oh, I'm no good at math. I didn't ask you if you're good at math. I'm just talking about this math equation. Or I didn't ask you that. But that's the first thing that comes to mind. So it's ironic that when people think about money, the first thing they believe is, I got to open up this massive spreadsheet that's so confusing and 50 different vlookups. It's like you're not even good at that. Your spreadsheet skills suck. So why do you even want to do that? You don't need that. First thing. The first thing I would recommend if you want to connect over money is to have what I call your first positive conversation about money. I call it that because most couples have actually never had a positive conversation about money.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's always conflict.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's like, I can't believe you spent that much at Target. I can't believe you went to the gas station and bought five energy drinks. They do that for 30 years. So we start, this is a very quick conversation. It's fun, and then call it a day. Step one, you just tell them why you're excited. Hey, you know what I realized in the past when we've talked about money, it hasn't gone the way I wanted. I'm probably a little bit overbearing, but I know that I want us to find a way to talk about it so that we can enjoy. That's it. Step one, take a little maybe, responsibility for your part in the process. Number two, tell them how you feel when we talk about money. Right now, I feel confused. I feel overwhelmed. I feel lonely. How about you? And what I'm doing there is. I'm not making it a monologue. I want to hear what they have to say. Step three, how I want to feel. I want to feel confident. I want to feel calm. I want to feel connected. How about you? And then fourth one is my favorite. It's literally amazing. When should we talk next? Oh, next Thursday night. Great. Call it a day. Give each other a big old hug. We're done.

[Elizabeth]

I love that.

[Unknown]

That's it. Short, sweet, positive. We'll deal with the rest later.

[Elizabeth]

Okay, Ramit, you talk about there being four money types, which is so illuminating. What are the four?

[Unknown]

The first is the most common. It is the avoider. Avoiders avoid. They use a series of conscious and unconscious techniques to avoid talking about money and engaging with money. For example, they might even use these phrases, you're so much better at money than I am, or, I'm just not good at math. And avoiders can avoid because, in part, somebody else is dealing with it. Also, you can actually go many years not really engaging with your money. Your lights are still on. You still have Internet. It is down the road that you truly pay the price. Next up is the worrier. Worriers relationship with money. That's what they know is to worry. And often, often they have inherited this belief from one or both of their parents. Their parents worried. They worried. Sometimes you see it going back multiple generations. The worrier is interesting. They worry regardless of how much they have. In fact, much of the time, they don't even actually know how much they have.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Interesting.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I ask them, when will you stop worrying? And they usually give me a very facile numerical answer, oh, when I have $100,000 more. And then I say, do you think you'll actually stop worrying then? And then they almost always say, I hope so. Without worrying, they don't actually know what their relationship would be because they've never not worried.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Do you think it's kind of almost a superstitious thing also, like, if I'm worried about it, I'll protect myself somehow. I'm keeping my eye on it, you know?

[Unknown]

Yeah. Oh, of course. They contort their worrying to say things like, I just like to be in control. Well, there's a difference between control. I look at me, do I look like I'm in control? They're like, yeah. I go, do I look like I'm worried? They're like, no.

[Gretchen Rubin]

What's the difference?

[Unknown]

Ooh, there's a moment right there.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right?

[Unknown]

Okay. The third is an optimizer. An optimizer loves a good spreadsheet. Let me project. How much are we going to have gross net? What about nominal real. What about 65, 68 years? Have we factored in inflation? And. And we already know we have at least one optimizer on this podcast, it's me and I know it's at least one. And the good news is that an optimizer can help you set up financially. You can often set yourself up for success. The problem is that optimizers can become unbearably cheap and intolerable to be because.

[Gretchen Rubin]

They think about the compound interest. If they only interest save this $25, what would it be worth in 30 years?

[Unknown]

Totally. Yeah. Somebody wants to go out to dinner and the partner is like, well, did you know if we invest that properly at 7% for 40 years, it's like, just shut up, let's go have a nice dinner.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Or like people who just talk about points all the time. I have a friend who's like a points. It's extraordinary. But I'm like, you're spending a lot of time and energy on points.

[Unknown]

Yes, yes, okay, completely. And then finally, the most difficult money type of all is the dreamer. And the dreamer. Yeah, the dreamer often believes that success is the next gig or the next deal away. They often get involved in scams and schemes like multi level marketing and they're actually allergic to things like a 9 to 5 job. In fact, they even use phrases, oh, I would Never work a 9 to 5. I'm much more creative than that. Well, the only reason they can afford to dream, or in other words, be unengaged with reality living in la la land is because they are subsidized. Subsidized by a parent or by a partner. And if those left, they would quickly have to engage with reality and get a job.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Interesting. Well, probably dreamers are expensive sometimes too because I imagine they want.

[Elizabeth]

They invest.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, to invest in their dreams. Or they're like, oh, I'll put a little money down and then It'll be worth three times, you know, totally. They say, I'll make 20 times the returns or whatever. But you need to have the money down.

[Unknown]

Yep. These money types, you know, it's helpful to understand who we are because once you understand, then you start to realize, oh my gosh, there are patterns in myself. And if there's anything we love, it's understanding ourselves through quizzes like yours and so many other ways. But it also helps to understand your partner.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Oh my gosh. Every time I suggest doing something, he or she says, how much is it going to cost? And now I realize it's not just, you know, it's not that they have a personality defect. No, it's they have a money type. We can probably ask a bunch of questions, trace it back and Although they will always probably wonder about cost. We can also start to become a little bit more fluid with our relationship with money. And that's a beautiful thing, hearing these types.

[Elizabeth]

I think I'm a warrior, 100%. And I think my husband is an avoider. And so that's why I guess I see there's conflict there because I want to talk about it and worry about it, and he wants to avoid it.

[Unknown]

Wow. Okay. I have a question for you, Liz. This is so interesting. If you didn't worry about money, what would you do?

[Elizabeth]

What would I do? Well, spend more, probably.

[Unknown]

Oh, I love that answer.

[Elizabeth]

Because I wouldn't be worried about it. I don't feel like it necessarily comes from how I grew up. I think it's just I'm a worrier about everything. It's not just money. It's just I am a worrier, so therefore, I worry about that as well.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And is there any part of your life where you're not a worrier?

[Elizabeth]

No.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Elizabeth]

No, I don't think so.

[Unknown]

Okay. That's really interesting. And I love hearing your breakdown of your husband and you. It's interesting. When I ask worriers, they will often give me one area. It's usually one of three areas. It's work where they're super confident, fitness or parenting. Those tend to be the three most common areas. And then what I do with them as I talk to them is I try to create a bridge. Like, imagine how you felt when you first started getting into fitness. How is it when you go to the gym now you know how to do these Olympic lifts. What would it feel like if you felt that way and they start to realize, oh, money is a skill just like anything else.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Interesting.

[Elizabeth]

That's so interesting. Yeah. That maybe it'd be like TV writing for me.

[Unknown]

Yeah, totally.

[Elizabeth]

Well, this is fascinating. Now, when we come back with Ramit, we are going to talk about the biggest mistake couples make when it comes to finances. But first, this break.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You know, as parents, we want to help our children succeed in school. But I remember when Eleanor was struggling with math, she was asking questions on the homework that I just did not feel equipped to answer. And that's where a program like IXL can really make a difference. IXL Learning is an online learning program for kids. It covers math, language arts, science and social studies. IXL is designed to help your kids really understand and master topics in a fun way with positive feedback. Eleanor needed something exactly like ixl, something that would really take her through the topic, help her keep up with class and help her really understand the fundamentals.

[Elizabeth]

IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and happier with Gretchen Rubin. Listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up [e-mail] Happier visit ixl.com Happier to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Let's talk about a small thing that can make a big difference if you have diabetes. The Freestyle Libre 3 sensor. It's amazing how the sensor gives you real time glucose readings so you can see the impact of every meal and activity to make better choices.

[Gretchen Rubin]

The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus sensor can help you live life with diabetes on your terms. This is progress. You can try it for free at FreestyleLibre US. Offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle US to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply for prescription only safety info found @freestylelibre us. Okay, Remi, if there's one mistake you see over and over that people just make repeatedly, what do you think it is?

[Unknown]

The vast majority of couples do not have a shared vision of a rich life.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Mmm.

[Unknown]

So, you know, they will argue. The argument is actually quite specific and esoteric. It will be, you know, he spends too much money on leather belts or sunglasses.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I remember was an episode where that was like a big point of contention. Yes.

[Unknown]

And what's crazy is these fights go on for 30 plus years. And sometimes I'll listen to them. They'll tell me, you know, couples love to talk about their fights. They love it. And I like to listen too. It's a little juicy. So I'm like, all right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I guess is really fun to listen to for that reason. It is. Each one is like a short story.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And then I'll ask them, what is your vision for a rich life? What is your rich life? And the answer is almost always the same. I want to do what I want when I want. Okay, what do you want? Blank look, most of us have never thought about it. And so if you individually have never thought about it and then your partner has never really thought about it, it's no surprise that it's actually easier to just fight about some aluminum can purchase than to come up with this lofty question. So another way to think about it is everybody put your palm forward, like palm up towards the sky. And you just go, what do I get? What do I get? And what do we get for all this work that we do for Managing this household, maybe raising kids. What do we get? Maybe it means every Friday night we order pizza for the family and watch a movie. That's a rich life to start off with. Or it could be as glamorous as, you know, we take a trip to XYZ place every year. That's what we get. These are the questions that I want couples to ask, because it's a way to start talking about money from a positive perspective. Start dreaming. Then we can work the numbers out to make sure that you can live part of that rich life.

[Elizabeth]

Should people be talking about finances when they're dating? I would assume the answer is yes. And are there red flags where you should just walk away from somebody when it comes to money?

[Unknown]

Yes. Yes to both. First of all, when did we all bring up money with our partners? Can anybody remember?

[Gretchen Rubin]

No. My husband and I didn't talk about anything. We, like, had love at first sight, got engaged very quick. I mean, it was just like, looking back, I was like, gosh, some people.

[Elizabeth]

Around the wedding, I imagine, start talking about what to spend on a wedding.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right? Yeah. That's a big one.

[Unknown]

That's interesting. I've found that couples really only substantively talk about money roughly four times in their entire relationship. It's not even wedding because most of them just pick an arbitrary number and then, you know, they exceed it by double and whatever. It's buying a house, it's having kids.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Sure.

[Unknown]

It's when they turn 60 and they're starting to think about retirement. And one more. Most people miss this one. It is if one of them loses their job.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, sure.

[Unknown]

Those are the four times you actually have to sit down and talk about feelings and numbers. Other than that, honestly, most couples get married without really looking at too many numbers. So in terms of dating, the personal finance industry tells you you should talk about money on your first date. Have you all ever been on a first date?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, that's a buzz kill.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's a red flag for somebody else.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Can you imagine someone comes with their freaking portfolio and they're like, let's look at my asset allocation.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah, here's my student debt.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I think early on, there are some. First of all, we're all curious about somebody's financial situation. And honestly, there's no shame in caring about money. Money isn't just a number. Money is where you live, what you eat, what type of family you have. It's a lot. But I don't think you need to ask people point blank, date one or two. You can say, you can ask questions. Let's say by date three, you're obviously interested. You go, hey, like, what'd you guys do when you were growing up? Where'd you go during summers and. Or winters? Maybe they go, we flew on our jet to Aspen. Okay, that's quite interesting to know. Or, like, our family, they got in the minivan and drove from Northern California to Southern California. Also interesting. So you're starting to collect clues. Hey, how much do you think we should tip tonight? That's an interesting clue. I'm genuinely curious what they think. And then there are some times where it makes natural sense to talk about it. The first time we travel, if we decide to move in together when we're getting married. And so those are the times where I would take advantage. And all of this is fine. It could be smooth and fluid. There's only one red flag with all this. It's not student loan debt. It's not even credit card debt. We can deal with that. It is if your partner is unwilling to talk about money. If they won't do it and they just sit back with their arms crossed. Well, we can work with a lot, but we can't work with someone who's simply unwilling to talk about it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But you said that avoidant was the most common thing.

[Unknown]

I know. It's really hard. It can be worked in a relationship. That's the hardest part, is actually recalibrating the relationship. Because, like, with an avoider, usually the other person picks up the slack. And so if you have an avoider partner, part of it is, like, you probably need to get outside help. That's why I encourage using a therapist, etc. But what you really need to do is recalibrate the relationship. Here's where we currently are. Here's what I want. I'm open if you have separate decisions or thoughts about how we should recalibrate. But. But it has to change. Here's what I need. And then you give them clear expectations, and you expect that they will fail. They'll fail once they'll fail. For example, you're in charge of the grocery budget. Okay? They're not gonna do it the first time. The second time, they're gonna exceed it by 50%. But that's okay. At least they're starting to get some skin in the game.

[Elizabeth]

Interesting.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, I mean, speaking of debt, which you just alluded to, one of the things you write about in Money for Couples is digging out of a mountain of debt. And that's a huge thing. But what's Your quick an to that.

[Unknown]

90% of people I talk to in debt don't even know how much debt.

[Gretchen Rubin]

They owe because they don't want to look.

[Elizabeth]

So they don't know how much their income is, and they don't know how much they owe.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Isn't that shocking? So instead of actually looking at the numbers, they simply concoct a series of vague feelings, almost always negative, and then they just go through life feeling horrible. And yet they. They spend crazy amounts of money on housing, cars, and eating out the three biggest areas that people overspend. So it's almost like we're going through life blind, but it's not because we're born blind. It's because we have these glasses on that are foggy, and we just never thought to clear them. It's too scary to see what might be out there. So with debt, the first is very simple. I've helped people who have, you know, $10,000 of credit card debt, $500,000 of student loan debt. In almost every case, there is a solution, and it's. It can be done. First of all, you got to know how much you owe. That's part one. It's not hard. Call up the debtors. Make them do the work for you. How much do I owe? What's the balance? What's the interest rate? Plug it into an online debt payoff calculator. And part two is create a payoff plan. So, like, a lot of people aren't aware, but let's say you have a typical mortgage. By paying even an extra hundred dollars a month, you can shave off years and years from that debt.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Spoken like a true optimizer.

[Unknown]

Yes, I know, I know. I love it. Get that calculator out and plug in your numbers until the sunset. Okay, listen, can. Can you imagine there's two occupations who have the worst student loan debt numbers? Can you guess what they are?

[Elizabeth]

Doctor would be a guess.

[Unknown]

Close, but doctors make a lot of money, so they end up in a. Okay financial situation, but you're on the right track. Who has similar debt but doesn't make nearly as much?

[Elizabeth]

Veterinarians.

[Unknown]

Yes. Veterinarians is number one.

[Elizabeth]

Oh, Gretchen nailed it.

[Unknown]

Okay, what's number two? You're so close. It's in the same universe.

[Elizabeth]

Dentist.

[Unknown]

Nope. They make a lot of money, I'll tell you. Veterinarians and physical therapists. So I spoke to both of them. Veterinarian. There's a couple. Two veterinarians. $500,000 of debt. Wow, that is overwhelming. Almost inescapable, even in Their situation. There was a way to get out of it, but like you would expect, they simply refused to look at the numbers. And so part of this is summoning the courage to say, hey, I know this doesn't feel good, but I know there has to be a better tomorrow than there is today. Let me create my debt payoff plan. And honestly, you would be amazed how good it feels to have that plan in place and to have money automatically going towards debt. That is an amazing feeling.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, on the happy side of it, I mean, you talk about doing the Rich Life review together. So describe what that looks like for couples.

[Unknown]

I think it's the perfect time of the year to do it. So at the end of the year, the beginning of the year, I love this concept of an annual Rich Life review. So my wife and I sat down, we just did this recently. We sat next to each other. And first off, we started by finding 20 photos that we texted to each other from our phone. And it was 20 of the most memorable moments of last year.

[Gretchen Rubin]

What a nice. What a nice.

[Unknown]

Isn't it fun?

[Gretchen Rubin]

That is a great idea. Then you could, like, turn it into the calendar for next year or something.

[Unknown]

Yeah, totally. Some of them, most of them were like, traveling or great meals. Not all of them were happy because not every part of the year is happy. Sometimes there's sad times. That's okay. But just memorable. When I looked at the photos I sent, 18 out of 20 of them were with friends and family. It's just such an obvious thing. What I want to do more of next year. So that was the first thing is just starting at that dream state. Next up, we came up with a series of questions. Feel free to borrow these or come up with your own. But our questions were, what if next year were incredibly luxurious? We started with, like, luxury. What would it be convenient? We did that. Then we did adventurous, and we did relational. Right. A lot of social relationships. Calm. And we just kind of bantered back and forth. We wrote down all the ideas. Doesn't mean we're going to do all of them. But you're really just starting to explore that dream state. Then we started to ask, what do we want to do more of and less of? So I'll give some examples you might find as you discuss this with your partner. I want to do more date nights. Cool. Let's get more specific. Once a week. Once every other week, I want to do more time with the grandparents. Okay, cool. Let's jot it down. I don't want to eat out as much Or I don't want to spend so much on our car. The payments are almost done. I don't want to get a new one. Let's just ride that thing. So we start talking about this and notice that there's no judgment. You might even say, you know, I feel like we spend a lot on eating out, for example, is the most common one. I think maybe we could find a different way to eat and feel more healthy. Okay, cool. I'm not judging you. I'm just saying this is what I think I'd like to spend less on. On after all of this. This might take three hours for total, like, everything we've done so far, but it's split over multiple days. We're in no rush. We have the ultimate luxury of time. We finally get to the numbers. Let's take a look at our numbers from last year. What did we project if most of us didn't do any projections? So let's go ahead and just look at what we have. And we're not judging here. We're just going like, oh, wow, we spent way more than we thought on home repairs. Okay, good to note. And now you align your actual numbers with what you said you wanted next year, and that is that moment of change where you start to realize, I can create my rich life. We can create our rich life through choices, using our money instead of just spending on whatever's in front of us.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, here's one last question for you, Ramit. Okay. One thing that comes up a lot in your podcast Money for Couples is sometimes you'll say, like, I felt frustrated in this part of the conversation. Or you may feel frustrated when you hear them answering this way. One of the things I love about it is you have a real take. You have a real perspective. You bring a lot of personality into it. You're not just some distant voice. You're in the conversation with them. And what is the thing that frustrates you most with couples?

[Unknown]

Oh, my God, Gretchen, what a great question. There's this really peculiar thing people do where they will fill out the application to be on our podcast. They go through extensive screening. They have to send videos. They have to talk to a producer. And it. It's usually a very serious challenge in their relationship with money. It's like a 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 when they.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Have to disclose a lot of numbers because you.

[Unknown]

And they have to disclose everything.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

And that's public. That will be online forever on YouTube and everywhere. And so. So I know. I prep and they'll say in our application, we've discussed divorce. It can't go on like this. I go, wow, this is serious. Okay. We're gonna have a really substantive discussion. I get to the call, I say, hello. We build some rapport. I say, tell me what's going on. And then this is what happens. They go, well, you know, we've been having this disagreement, but it's not like it's actually, like. I wouldn't call it a fight. It's actually not like even that comment. I mean, it's not even that big of a deal, really. I think we just need a budget. I go, it took you six months to get on this call, and you're minimizing already. It's this peculiar thing that we as humans do, which is we recognize when there's a problem, but then when we get the chance to solve it, we shy away. So I have a very good. I have a very good way of getting them back and just kind of like. Like lowering the stakes so they realize it's safe to talk. But the most frustrating thing is when they go through all of this work, which I recognize is hard, and then they don't actually want to change. And that. That is frustrating on a personal and professional level for me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right, because you're excited when you can be the agent of change and give them the clarity that they need and way to work, work forward. But then when some people are like, well, actually, I was hoping you would come up with a solution that meant that I could keep doing what I was doing. Yeah, or maybe you'll change my partner.

[Elizabeth]

Make them do it.

[Unknown]

Honestly, my Netflix team taught me something, which I did. I'd been doing my business for, like, 15, 17 years by the time I shot that Netflix show. And my showrunner, she and I were talking, and my belief was that my job is transformation. You know, like, give me someone, they're in debt, and I help them get out of. Or whatever. Right. And she said no. She's like, I love a good transformation, but we want to help them share their story. Some people are gonna listen, and some people are not, and it's equally okay. And so that really shook me. Like, oh, My job is not to transform everyone, because not everyone is ready. I'm not even ready to be transformed in certain parts of my life.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Unknown]

But just to allow people to share their story. Any good TV writer, Liz, you know, this is just letting that story come out. That is. That is some of the highest art that you can create. So sometimes just let them tell Their story and whether or not they change, that's not up to me. That's really up to them.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, it's interesting because there's a proverb when the student is ready, the teacher appears. And it might be that the life that you transform is somebody who's listening, who really identifies and is like, oh, that sounds like me. And that sounds like us. And we do that too. And then they go off and read your book and do it and you don't even know.

[Unknown]

I mean, I'm going to host it.

[Elizabeth]

Then they email and tell you all about it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Yeah. That is very gratifying. So I appreciate that reminder.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. Well, it's a fascinating book. It is such an emotionally charged subject within the larger subject of happiness. Ramit, you've done so much to illuminate this and help us all find ways to have a happier life and you've used your optimization for good.

[Unknown]

Thank you very much. That's the highest praise of all.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Thanks so much.

[Elizabeth]

Thanks, Ramit. Okay, Gretchen, what is our spotlight on Atul this week?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, so I have a group called the super fans and I love this group. I so appreciate the support and enthusiasm of the Superfan group. If you would like to put up your hand and join, you can go to happiercast.com superfan this is not a big deal. Every once in a while I'll offer a bonus or a discount or I'll ask a question to have people weigh in on something that I can't figure out. I'll do some behind the scenes look or request a favor like, hey, pre order secrets of adulthood because that really helps, that kind of thing. But it's nothing too onerous. It's really, it's just a fun group that I really appreciate. And that again, is happier casting.com superfan Yay. Yeah.

[Elizabeth]

Okay, finally, Gretch, what is our quotation this week?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, I love this one. This is from Heraclitus. You would not find the boundaries of the soul though you traveled every road.

[Elizabeth]

Love it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So, Elizabeth, are you feeling happier?

[Elizabeth]

Yes, I am feeling happier. Thank you to Chuck and Ramit. Bye, Gretch.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Bye, Elizabeth. The best time to start a happiness project project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. Elizabeth. I love that Ramit has four money types. Because you know me, I love any kind of distinction, any kind of type. I'm like, the minute I saw that, I was like, oh, my gosh, I cannot wait to dig in.

[Elizabeth]

I know you two have a lot in common. He reminds me a lot of you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

In many ways, he is an upholder. I do know that.

[Elizabeth]

Not surprised.

[Gretchen Rubin]

From the Onward project.

[Ramit Sethi]

On Deaf Sex and Money, we feature interviews with you, our community of listeners, getting honest about uncomfortable things.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I developed an illness where it isn't.

[Unknown]

Safe for me to drive.

[Gretchen Rubin]

A friend once said to me, sex is like air. You don't think about it until you're not getting enough. This is a similar sort of thing if you just replace sex with driving.

[Ramit Sethi]

Listen to death, Sex and Money. Wherever you get podcasts.