DNA Detective

Summary

Happy Face - Episode: DNA Detective
Release Date: September 22, 2020
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In the compelling episode titled "DNA Detective," Happy Face delves deep into the intricate and emotionally charged journey of Becky Moore as she unravels the mysteries surrounding her biological heritage. This episode intertwines the harrowing legacy of her father, Keith Hunter Jesperson—a notorious serial killer—and Becky's personal quest to understand her own identity through DNA investigation. Host Melissa Moore masterfully balances the true crime elements with a profound exploration of familial bonds, identity, and the quest for truth.

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Becky's Quest for Identity

Becky Moore's journey begins with the revelation of her father, Keith Hunter Jesperson's heinous crimes, which not only devastated her family but also ignited a profound personal crisis. Struggling with the fear of inheriting her father's possible psychopathic traits, Becky embarks on a mission to seek answers about her biological father, especially after Diane Downs—another infamous figure—claims that Becky is not her biological daughter.

Key Quote:
"I just have one more question. Is that okay?" – Becky [04:04]

Becky's determination leads her to confront unsettling truths about her past, pushing her to explore the depths of her genetic lineage in hopes of finding clarity and understanding.

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Introducing the DNA Detective

To aid in this quest, Becky collaborates with Michelle Leonard, a seasoned DNA detective and genealogist. Michelle explains the scientific and emotional complexities involved in DNA testing, especially in cases intertwined with criminal histories.

Key Quote:
"DNA is a very scientific way of going about a very emotional process. There's no denying that your clients and Becky here are absolutely going to be subjected to strong emotions about this." – Michelle Leonard [25:59]

Michelle emphasizes the importance of accurate DNA interpretation and the potential challenges that arise from misinterpretation or incomplete data. She outlines the meticulous process of building a comprehensive family tree, leveraging both molecular data and traditional genealogical methods to trace Becky's paternal lineage.

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Emotional and Psychological Impacts

Throughout the episode, the emotional toll of uncovering painful family secrets is palpable. Becky grapples with the fear that discovering her biological father's true identity might shatter her current understanding of herself and her adoptive family. Similarly, Diane Downs' daughter shares her own emotional struggles, highlighting the universal challenges faced by individuals seeking to connect with their biological roots.

Key Quote:
"There are so many stories circling around my biological father. I've heard that he doesn't know that he's the father... so many things. I would really love to just find that one answer." – Diane Downs' Daughter [26:35]

This shared vulnerability underscores the broader theme of the episode: the delicate balance between seeking truth and preserving one's present emotional well-being.

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The DNA Testing Process

Michelle Leonard provides an in-depth explanation of the DNA testing process, detailing how commercial genealogical databases can be leveraged to find potential relatives and, ultimately, Becky's biological father. She discusses the technical aspects of DNA matching, the importance of corroborating evidence, and the potential emotional outcomes of uncovering unexpected truths.

Key Quotes:
"DNA doesn't lie, human beings do." – Michelle Leonard [24:26]
"When you're trying to solve a mystery, you really have to understand and do your work to figure out how to overcome it." – Eric Mason [08:10]

Michelle advises caution, emphasizing that while DNA can provide definitive answers, the interpretation requires expertise to avoid false leads and misidentifications. She also highlights the necessity of having a support system in place to navigate the emotional ramifications of the findings.

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Impact on Relationships and Identity

Becky's journey is not just about uncovering her biological father's identity but also about understanding how this revelation will affect her relationship with her adoptive family and her sense of self. The episode poignantly explores the tension between nature and nurture, questioning how much of one's identity is shaped by genetics versus upbringing.

Key Quote:
"The genetics that I have don't make me who I am. I was raised right... I think my genetics have played a part in a lot of the things that I've done." – Diane Downs' Daughter [39:10]

This introspection leads to a broader discussion on identity formation, suggesting that while genetic heritage plays a role, the environment and relationships one cultivates are equally, if not more, significant in shaping who they become.

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Conclusion

"DNA Detective" is a profound exploration of the intersection between true crime and personal identity. Through Becky's relentless pursuit of the truth, listeners are invited to reflect on the complexities of family, the impact of genetic legacy, and the resilience required to face uncomfortable truths. Melissa Moore skillfully weaves personal narratives with expert insights, creating a narrative that is both engaging and thought-provoking.

As the episode concludes, Becky's anticipation awaits the DNA results, symbolizing a pivotal moment that could redefine her understanding of herself and her place in the world. The episode leaves listeners contemplating the profound questions of heritage, identity, and the lengths one will go to uncover the truth.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Becky [04:04]: "Okay, I just have one more question. Is that okay? When you reached out to Diane and asked her about what was that like, bringing me into the world, what was her answer?"

• Eric Mason [06:13]: "I think the journey that we are all on is to understand why. And with Rebecca, wow, she has a lot of it that she can read about, watch, and that she has kind of a front row seat to this very infamous person."

• Dr. Greg Hamikin [10:20]: "I started about 20 something years ago doing forensic work... When somebody who understands the DNA looks at it properly, realizes that the DNA doesn't support that conclusion of it being that man."

• Michelle Leonard [24:26]: "DNA doesn't lie, human beings do."

• Diane Downs' Daughter [26:35]: "Oh, there's so many stories circling around my biological father... I would really love to just find that one answer."

• Michelle Leonard [36:58]: "I can have that maternal side as reference... And if a maternal relative can test, even better, because everyone that matches them as well, I can just eliminate them."

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Production Credits

• Executive Producer: Melissa Moore
• Co-Executive Producer: Maya Cole
• Primary Producer: Paul Decant
• Supervising Producer: Sam Teagarnan
• Story Editor: Matt Riddle
• Featured Music: Dream Tent
• Production Company: iHeartRadio

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Happy Face - DNA Detective offers a gripping narrative that not only uncovers dark family secrets but also celebrates the human spirit's quest for truth and understanding. It's a must-listen for true crime enthusiasts and anyone fascinated by the complexities of identity and heritage.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

[Advertiser Host]

This podcast is supported by Talkspace.

[Becky]

When my husband came home from his military deployment, readjusting was hard for all of us. Thankfully, I found Talkspace.

[Advertiser Host]

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[Becky]

I just answered a few questions online and Talkspace matched me with a therapist. We meet when it's convenient for me and I can message her anytime. It was so easy to set up and they accept Tricare. Therapy was going so well, my husband and I started seeing a couple's therapist through Talkspace, too.

[Advertiser Host]

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[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline.

[Podcast Announcer]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?

[Advertiser Host]

The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific and quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Advertiser Host]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in in Bone Valley Season one.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Advertiser Host]

I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Advertiser Host]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

I was born in Eugene. I don't remember this time. I think it was morning, but I don't remember. June 27, 1984.

[Becky]

And do you wonder about what the day was like that you came into this world.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

I do. I mean, I wonder. I've heard she was induced, but I'm not really sure. So I wonder what it was like. Was she in her jail cell and her water broke and she was rushed to the hospital, or, you know, was it planned for that day? And then, you know, I wonder what it was like after I was born, as she was showing me off and, you know, that sort of stuff, it's a little strange to me, but I'm wondering, being taken away from her, how did that go? Because I remember when I gave my son to the nurse, it broke me. You know, that was a moment of just pain, sheer pain. But I knew he was going somewhere where he would be, you know, well taken care of and loved, and I chose that family. So it's a little bit different than Diane, where she didn't get to choose the family. And, you know, she didn't have a say in any of it. In no way am I saying she's a victim. I'm just saying that it might have been hard on her, but with her mental state, it may not have been anything to her. I guess that's kind of what I'm curious is, how did she handle it? Was she just like, okay, take my kid, or was it hard for her?

[Becky]

Okay, I just have one more question. Is that okay? When you reached out to Diane and asked her about what was that like, bringing me into the world, what was her answer?

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

She was acting like it was the best thing in the world, you know, and how she was so happy, and she got to hold me and how much she loved me, and she didn't say anything about having to hand me over or me being taken away or anything like that. It was just that she got to hold me for a very long time. And I don't know, it's still kind of weird. Creeps me out a little bit. I don't know. It's just really strange to be born from a person that you cannot relate to. You know, it's. It's. That's my biological mother, but I don't understand her at all. I don't ever want to be here. I was about eight years old when my adoptive mom started telling me about my biological mom, about how she had done bad things. And I continued to ask and pester her throughout, you know, the next three years. And she finally got to the point where she just decided, you know, you're not old enough to know. This is something that's awful. I don't ever want to tell you. In a sense, as a little kid, it was more curiosity than anything. I was frustrated with her, and I was a little angry that she wouldn't tell me. So I really just wanted to know. And then once I got that in my head, that I wanted to know that they were who she was because my mom had given me little tidbits that she was bad, that she was in jail, that all this stuff, and I wanted to know why. So it was more frustrating. And I was a little bit angry when she wouldn't tell me. And then my brain went to work of how can I find out on my own?

[Becky]

And of course, by tricking her babysitter, Becky did finally find out who her mother was. Later, after watching Small Sacrifices, Eric Mason was one of the first people to help Becky bring her story to the press and has a unique insight into Becky's reasons for wanting her story out into the world.

[Eric Mason]

Yeah, well, I think all of us have family secrets. We all have that crazy uncle. We all have something that we don't want to share with the rest of the world. And so as a story that one day Becky, living in Bend, is watching Farrah Fawcett in the movie Small Sacrifices on television and thinking to herself, oh, my God, that is my mother. That in that sense, we all have to come to terms with what came before us and who came before us and their crimes or their contributions. And to make peace with all of it is to understand ourselves a whole lot more. And so, you know, the journey that we are all on is to understand why. And with Rebecca, wow, she has a lot of it that she can read about, watch, and that she has kind of a front row seat to this very infamous person. And in so doing, being able to talk about it in the magazine and on 2020 and on Oprah, being able to talk about it and everyone think to themselves, you know what? I think I can deal with my past a little bit better, too.

[Becky]

You know what's been surprising to me, Eric, is that when I've been working on this case, I've had people attached to the case that worked with the children. Anybody who's worked with Christy or Danny or came in contact with the deceased. Cheryl told me, why is this? Why does anybody care about Becky's story? She didn't get shot. Like, that's kind of surprising to me. Like, what is she really suffering from? She was raised by a fabulous family.

[Podcast Announcer]

Why?

[Becky]

Why do this big quest? Is she just seeking fame?

[Eric Mason]

Yeah, that's a good point. I Mean, when the woman came to me who was in the film festival from Bend and said, do you want to meet Diane Now's daughter? I was like, oh, my God, could this even be true? And I don't think she really was per se looking for that. I think she was searching for the understanding of her own life. And I think she saw journalism and getting the story out there as a way to maybe find the other missing pieces of the puzzle. And so sort of crying out to the universe is not such a. I mean, I think in some ways it's therapeutic. And for her, I think the point of the story is this is the amazing control part of the experiment, is she was raised in the absolute best surroundings, environment, place to live, resources from parents, and yet she felt this toe from the water of that genetics, and it still was pulling on her and still controlling her, even from, in some ways, from a prison in California. There was this element there that was just really strong, this current. And to be able to fight that current, you really have to understand and do your work to figure out how to overcome it.

[Becky]

When we contacted Diane Downs about this podcast, she responded with a short and somewhat strange letter claiming that Becky was not her biological daughter. And even more odd was the fact that she included several Q tips enclosed in a small plastic bag inside an envelope with the words Try it glued to the front, presumably saturated with her saliva, so that we could have her DNA. In Becky's quest to find out more about her family lineage, DNA is all she really has to start with. We enlisted the help of a DNA detective to help with the process. But first we spoke to Dr. Greg Hamikin, a DNA expert, to learn a bit about the process and what to expect.

[Dr. Greg Hamikin]

You know, my mother told me not to talk about myself. I violate that constantly.

[Becky]

Tell your mom you have permission to brag.

[Dr. Greg Hamikin]

I started about 20 something years ago doing forensic work. Got into forensics, really through teaching. I started using a murder scenario with the DNA. But then I met Calvin Johnson, who was a guy who got out through DNA through the Innocence Project in New York. He was released near where I was teaching in Georgia. He'd been 17 years in prison, and he's on the radio talking. They asked him, how do you feel about the criminal justice system now? And he said, you gotta have laws. He's not bitter. He's just a really great guy and believes in the system still after what he's been through. So we invited him to school, and as he was speaking to my students, I wrote chapter one of Exit to Freedom, which became his autobiography. After that book, in 1999, I started getting casework because people thought, well, if I can write about it, maybe I could help out with some cases. So I started doing casework for free, helping out. And then I testified, came back to Georgia, tried to start a Georgia Innocence Project, and found out there were already some students doing that at the law school. So I got on their board as their DNA expert and we started working down there. And I think, gosh, I think I've worked on six cases with people in exonerate with them. When I was in London working on a private case, I was doing research on how they do things in Europe. And so I got in touch with Amanda Knox's team. She was at trial at that point. I joined the team, got a bunch of American experts to look at the case, along with Libby Johnson. She was doing the same thing. We wrote a report to the court. The court didn't accept it. She's convicted. And then I just kept working on that case with the family for about four years. That case really got so much press attention and so many fans and people who hated her. It was kind of like OJ's case. It was such a controversial case. So that really kind of thrusts our little project much more in the limelight for a while, both in positive and negative ways.

[Becky]

I called you a couple weeks ago because I wanted to ask you where to start with DNA, because Becky and I are on an interesting journey together, and I have no knowledge of DNA, and it's critical to the journey that Becky and I are going on.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

I am the biological daughter of Diane Downs, and I am just curious about everything with DNA. So Diane actually denies that I'm her biological daughter. My original birth certificate actually says that she is my birth mother. Diane has sent her DNA to the studio so that we can, you know, try and match that. But I'm actually really interested to go on a search for my biological father. Would that be something that we could do with running my DNA through some system?

[Becky]

We found out that due to Becky's ethnic background, it's actually highly likely that she'll be able to find a lot of information through a commercial DNA service.

[Dr. Greg Hamikin]

There's good news in that, because the American genealogical databases are populated disproportionately with Caucasians, whereas the criminal databases are not. It's just. Just the opposite of the criminal databases. You know, the good news for Caucasians who are looking for their families is you're likely to get a lot of information from any of the commercial genealogy companies.

[Becky]

According to Dr. Gregg, interestingly enough, men often have a much easier time tracing.

[Dr. Greg Hamikin]

Their lineage because men usually give their last name. But no, you should be able to find out pretty easily with a genetic test that you can send off to any of the commercial folks and they link to all these great paper trails. There are lots of things people are doing now with DNA through these ancestry records. I don't think you're going to have a terrible problem finding at least the lineage of both of your parents.

[Becky]

Dr. Gray continued to explain some of the technical aspects of examining DNA, as well as the process itself and some of the science behind it. But ultimately his suggestion was that we contact a genealogist, someone whose job it is to do a deep dive into the results provided by a commercial DNA service and really trace the backgrounds and family lines by using the results as a foundation and researching beyond them.

[Advertiser Host]

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[Podcast Announcer]

Foreign.

[Andrea Gunning]

Gunning Host of the podcast Betrayal, Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all, his wife, Caroline.

[Podcast Announcer]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.

[Advertiser Host]

She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

[Podcast Announcer]

No.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?

[Advertiser Host]

You're unable to keep track of all your lies. And quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him Questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Advertiser Host]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley season one.

[Podcast Announcer]

I just knew him as a kid.

[Advertiser Host]

Long silent voices from his past came.

[Gilbert King]

Forward and he was just staring at me.

[Advertiser Host]

And they had secrets of their own to share.

[Gilbert King]

Gilbert King I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott.

[Advertiser Host]

I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad, it's oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Advertiser Host]

I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

If the cops and everything would have done their job properly, my dad would have been in jail. I would have never existed.

[Advertiser Host]

I never expected to find myself in this place. Now I need to tell you how I got here.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Advertiser Host]

Bone Valley Season 2 Jeremy, Jeremy, I.

[Podcast Announcer]

Want to tell you something.

[Advertiser Host]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the I Heart Race radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Melissa Jeltson]

Hi listeners, I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of what Happened to Talina Zar? It's the story of a woman who disappears in the early days of COVID lockdowns and the group of online sleuths who try to find her.

[Michelle Leonard]

I didn't want to be talked out of this plan.

[Podcast Announcer]

After I post this, I am turning off my phone for exactly this reason.

[Melissa Jeltson]

I kept just kind of asking everybody.

[Podcast Announcer]

Anyone else think this is strange?

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

You'll notice that about me. I don't lurk. I'm out there. I'm an action kind of girl.

[Melissa Jeltson]

You can now get access to episodes of what Happened to to Talina Zar 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription. I'm a subscriber and you should be too. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search iheartruecrime plus and subscribe today.

[Becky]

So we reached out to Michelle Leonard, a self proclaimed DNA detective.

[Michelle Leonard]

I'm Michelle and I am a professional genealogist, a DNA detective, an author, a historian and my main specialism is working with DNA testing in order to identify unknown ancestors. So all sorts of unknown ancestor mysteries, mainly unknown parentage, so unknown parents, unknown grandparents. But people will come to me with more distant unknown ancestor mysteries as well, like unknown great and second great grandparents, what I do is I marry up all my years of genealogical expertise in creating and building family trees and in living person tracing and with my DNA, know how to try and identify these mystery ancestors. In general. People will come to me because they've heard or maybe they've seen something on TV or they've read an article or they've just found out that DNA testing can help with their mystery. Some people come to me right at the beginning. Like, I think Becky is where they've not yet done any testing. They don't know where they should test. They don't know how to go about it. They've just found out. They've got this idea that doing DNA testing might solve their mystery, might help them find out who their father was or who their grandfather was, that kind of thing. Others will come to me after they've tested and they don't know what to do with it. And so they maybe Google for a DNA expert, a DNA detective or a genetic genealogist, and they might hit upon me and contact me. At that point, they might already have been building perhaps a maternal tree or trees for the lines that they know of and they want to do it themselves. But then they just hit a roadblock and they can't get any further, and they're frustrated with it and they think, I need somebody with a bit more expertise on this than I have, and then they'll come to me at that point.

[Becky]

One of the advantages of knowing your family line is having an understanding of their medical history. Becky has experienced some health problems in recent years, and she believes that knowing who her father is will help provide some insight to not only where she comes from, but also help establish a background on some of the medical problems she may be genetically predisposed to.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

Mainly, I just would like to find out who my biological father is. Not because my family life is disrupted or unhealthy, because my parents are amazing. I love them dearly, but I'm just getting older. I have quite a bit of health problems that are going on as I'm aging. And I'm realizing that I never met my biological father, and it was something that I kind of wanted to do.

[Michelle Leonard]

So medical history is something important then?

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

Yes, definitely. It's like when you go to the doctor and they say, do you have family history of xyz? I'll always have to put, I'm adopted, I don't know.

[Becky]

And you can see there's a big part of Becky that needs to know that some part of her comes from something decent.

[Michelle Leonard]

Many, many people have said that to me, and they want to know what their medical history is. And, you know, I think everyone has a right to know that as well.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

Yeah. And, I mean, I really just want to know where I come from. I want to know just my background. I know my life now, and I know my family and my parents, and this is all just beautiful and amazing. But I'd like to. To know the other half of me. You know, I. I know Diane Downs is my biological mother, and that is the half of me that I am not proud of, and I would love to find the other half. So when I was 18, I was able to order my original birth certificate, and that was the real answer. That was, oh, my gosh, it's actually true. There's no denying it at that point, because Diane Downs. Well, Elizabeth Diane Downs was listed as my biological mother, but there was no mention of a father.

[Michelle Leonard]

And that's very common, that there's just a big blank for the father. Very common, you know, in all time periods and in all places, really. And I agree with what you're saying about the aspect of taking back control, in a sense, in terms of what you can get from documents that varies from state to state, from country to country, that varies a lot. But what doesn't vary is the fact that whatever you might get from adoption papers or from hearsay from what somebody may be able to tell you is simply something that is very difficult to corroborate. In fact, impossible to corroborate without that DNA evidence.

[Becky]

Michelle's belief is that documents can sometimes have false information, but DNA evidence is more or less irrefutable.

[Michelle Leonard]

I always say that with this. While I want to know everything that it's possible to know about the adoption papers and the hearsay evidence, I always follow the DNA, always put the DNA first. And I don't let that other evidence, the documentary evidence, or the hearsay evidence cloud my judgment and lead to confirmation bias, because that information can always be wrong or falsely given. The DNA, however, if followed correctly, will lead to the truth. And you'll hear people say a lot things like, DNA doesn't lie, human beings do. And while that is very generally true, it's also quite an overused and oversimplified saying, because a DNA result on their own can be misinterpreted at times in that if you don't know what you're doing with them and you're trying to find an unknown father, you could misinterpret the DNA matches and end up identifying the wrong man or several wrong men. I've seen that happen before. Testers looking for answers, they hit upon someone with a similar name to one given in an adoption document, or they perhaps message a match who says, oh, I think it could be my dad's cousin. And people get taken along in the wave of that. And when somebody who understands the DNA looks at it properly, realizes that the DNA doesn't support that conclusion of it being that man. So it's a bit more complicated than simply saying DNA will give you the truth. DNA doesn't lie. That is true. But at the same time, it has to be worked with correctly in order to get to the correct answer.

[Becky]

DNA is a very scientific way of going about a very emotional process. There's no denying that your clients and Becky here are absolutely going to be subjected to strong emotions about this. And then also there's questions about when you find Becky's father, what do we do with that information? Because I've read different reports from Diane Downs herself where she has said, the father knows he's the father. He's a dear friend of mine. And so there's that in the reports. But then Becky's heard other things.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

Oh, there's so many stories circling around my biological father. I've heard that he doesn't know that he's the father. I've heard that he has fought for me when I was born to keep custody. I heard that he was a reporter during the case. I also heard that he worked at the mail office with. And then I also heard it was just some guy that was a husband of her cellmate. So, I mean, there's just so many stories. I would really love to just find that one answer.

[Becky]

And there's also the possibility that he's aware of who he is and simply doesn't have any desire to be involved.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

That's something that I am worried about, too, because I have been so out there, you know, I've been open about who I am, and if he had wanted to contact me, I've been in the media for 10 years now, you know, so why hasn't he. My fear is that maybe he has passed away or he doesn't want to be found, or he just doesn't know.

[Michelle Leonard]

It's a very tough thing to do. And you have to go into it understanding that it's going to bring up an awful lot of emotion. You have to have a good support network on hand, and you might want to even consider professional support, counseling and that kind of thing. To help through the process in terms of when you get to that point, if you get to that point. Because not all cases are solvable, or at least not all cases are immediately solvable. Some take weeks, some take months, some take years. And depending on the ethnicity of the man in question, sometimes there are some cases that will take years yet, because if he's of an ethnicity, say, that there isn't a society that tends to DNA test, then that makes life a lot more difficult because if you don't have the matches to work with, you can't identify the man on the end. But having said all that, if you get to that point, you identify a person, first off, you might have a number of candidates. You know, the DNA might be pointing to a particular family, say, but there might be three brothers. Or you might only be able to say, well, it's one of these brothers, or it's one of their first cousins. It's one of these five men, for instance. And the only way to get to the bottom of which one of the five it is is target testing. On those lines, anyone who DNA tests, they can find shocks and surpr can find some close ancestors aren't who they believe them to be. So, for instance, finding out your father's not your father or your grandfather wasn't your grandfather, these things can happen. Also, they might find that they have close relatives they didn't know existed, like, say, Becky testing and showing up on somebody's list. She could be a close relative, a half sibling, a first cousin they never knew existed. So in terms of the contacting people, in most cases, you're going to have several candidates and you might have to narrow things down to the right one. But if you do know exactly who it is, then there are a number of prevailing ideas on who should make the contact and how that contact should be made.

[Advertiser Host]

Yo, K Pop fans, it's your boy, Bom Han, and I'm bringing you something epic. Introducing the K Factor, the podcast that takes you straight into the heart of K pop. We're talking music reviews, exclusive interviews, and deep dives into the industry like never before. From producers and choreographers to idols and trainees. We're bringing you the real stories behind the music that you love. And yeah, we're keeping it 100, discussing everything from comebacks and concepts to the mental health side of the business. Because K pop isn't just a genre, it's a whole world. And we're exploring every corner of it. And here's the best part. Fans get to call in, drop opinions and even join us live at events. You never know where we might pop up next. So listen to the K factor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This isn't just a podcast. It's a movement. Are you ready? Let's go.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all, his wife, Caroline.

[Podcast Announcer]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.

[Advertiser Host]

She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

[Podcast Announcer]

No.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?

[Advertiser Host]

You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Advertiser Host]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley season one.

[Podcast Announcer]

I just knew him as a kid.

[Advertiser Host]

Long, silent voices from his past came.

[Gilbert King]

Forward, and he was just staring at me.

[Advertiser Host]

And they had secrets of their own to share.

[Gilbert King]

Gilbert King. I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott.

[Advertiser Host]

I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Advertiser Host]

I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

If the cops and everything would have done their job properly, my dad would have been in jail. I would have never existed.

[Advertiser Host]

I never expected to find myself in this place. Now I need to tell you how I got here.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Advertiser Host]

Bone Valley Season 2 Jeremy.

[Podcast Announcer]

Jeremy, I want to tell you something.

[Advertiser Host]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Melissa Jeltson]

Hi, listeners. I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of what Happened to Talina Zar? It's the story of a woman who disappears in the early days of COVID lockdowns and the group of online sleuths who try to find her.

[Michelle Leonard]

I didn't want to be talked out of this Plan.

[Podcast Announcer]

After I post this, I am turning off my phone for exactly this reason.

[Melissa Jeltson]

I kept just kind of asking everybody.

[Podcast Announcer]

Anyone else think this is strange?

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

You'll notice that about me. I don't lurk. I'm out there. I'm an action kind of girl.

[Melissa Jeltson]

You can now get access to episodes of what Happened into Talina Zar 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription. I'm a subscriber and you should be too, so don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search iHeart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Becky]

It's clear that for Becky, this whole process is going to be extremely emotional. It's not only her own discoveries that she's concerned about, but also the effect it might have on the people who raised her and took care of her. Also, at this point, Becky's dad could be whatever she imagines him to be, but once she knows, whatever fantasy or vision she has might be crushed.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

There's so many aspects to it that, you know, I don't want to hurt my adoptive parents because I do love them. And then there's the fact that I am on this journey that I never thought I was going to go on. I found Diane and I didn't want to know anymore. And now there's this search for finding the other half. And I've always been able just to pretend that my biological dad's an amazing person, that he loves me and that, I don't know, some great person that hasn't done anything wrong and is a positive person in society. But the reality is, I don't know. And he. He may not be a positive person. He may not be the person that I thought he was my whole life.

[Michelle Leonard]

Absolutely, yeah. As I say, this is not a comfortable thing to do and it's not an easy thing to do, and it can be emotionally draining. And there can be times where client has to step back and say, you know, this is taking over my life and I need to break from it for a while. And I think anyone, if they get to that point, then they need to take that break from it if they're getting scared about getting close to the truth and things like that. And that's a really, really important point. When you're doing something like this, it's not just about identifying someone. It's a whole range of emotions and how that person is feeling at any given point in the process is extremely important and has to be taken on board. And I completely understand what Becky is saying about having this fantasy about this great person in society that, while she doesn't know that, can remain intact. But at the same time, there's that gnawing away because of not knowing. Clients who have found out things about their birth parents that they didn't expect and that they found very tough to deal with that because they had built up an image of a person that didn't exist. In essence, that wasn't the reality. And others, of course, have been pleasantly surprised by what they found. It's every single case is so individual, and there's just no way to generalize about any of this at all.

[Becky]

Michelle explained to Becky and me in depth about how the process will work. Once Becky sends in her sample and receives her profile, Michelle will wade through all of the potential DNA relatives and form a complex family tree, gradually forming the branches that directly connect Becky to anyone else in the database who may hold clues to her father's identity.

[Michelle Leonard]

I want to have that maternal side as reference. So you want the maternal tree. But just as good, in fact, even better than having the maternal tree as well, is having a close maternal relative tested the closest that you can test. And when you're trying to solve a mystery, I want to just be working on the pertinent matches, the paternal matches. And if a maternal relative can test, even better, because everyone that matches them as well, I can just eliminate them. I can put them in a group maternal, and I can just put them to one side. And the people that don't match your uncle are the people I really want to look at because they're going to be on the paternal side. So actually, your uncle testing is something I would hugely recommend in this situation.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

Awesome.

[Becky]

Amazing. Thank you, Michelle, for taking the time to speak with Becky and I. Yeah.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

Michelle, thank you so much.

[Becky]

Thankfully, James did, in fact, submit his DNA, so hopefully Michelle will, in fact, be able to find a complete picture of Becky's material paternal line, which would not only help begin the search for her paternal lineage, but also provide Becky the conclusive confirmation that she is, in fact, Diane's daughter. Despite Diane's recent claims to the contrary, all that remains now is to wait for the results.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

And it's that big web where there's so many more things, and which is the reason that I have never done DNA testing. I have been a little bit worried about how deep it goes. You know, it's. It would be neat to know, you know, my heritage and, you know, what health problems run in the family, but I've never been ready to find my biological father until now.

[Becky]

Well, I can see how emotional that I've been thinking about your process and how we've. We're parallel and different in these ways. Like I told Michelle, just the fact that I know who my mom is and I've never had to fantasize about who she. She is. But you said it so well, like, yeah. What do you do with that fantasy if it's not real? If the father that you painted in your mind, I mean, this is a big part of your structure and your history. This is ingrained in how you've been able to formulate who you are as a person.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

Yeah. Luckily, I had my adoptive parents, and I've always said, you know, that blood doesn't. My blood in my veins may be somebody else's, but. Well, let me think about that. The genetics that I have don't make me who I am. You know, there's that nature versus nurture concept, and I was raised right. I was raised with good family ethics and values and morals. And, you know, I think my genetics have played a part in a lot of the things that I've done. But even if my biological father is somebody that doesn't live up to that fantasy, I think that I'll be okay because I have that strong family structure.

[Becky]

It's taken Becky a long time to reach the point where she's prepared to accept the idea that her biological father is out there and could potentially be located thanks to DNA. And what that will ultimately mean for her sense of identity remains to be seen, along with the uncertainty that he's even willing to cooperate or come forward. On the next episode of Happy Face presents. Two Face. Diane Down's trial. We explore aspects of Diane's trial as some of her bizarre behavior leading up to and during the trial, as well as a strange letter she wrote to her attorney after it was all over. Ben Bolen is our example. Executive producer Melissa Moore is our co executive producer Maya Cole is our primary producer. Paul Decant is our supervising producer. Sam Teagarnan is our researcher, and Matt Riddle is our story editor. Featured music by Dream tent Happy Face presents Two Face is a production of iHeartRadio.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline.

[Podcast Announcer]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?

[Advertiser Host]

The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific. And quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Advertiser Host]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season one.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Advertiser Host]

I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Advertiser Host]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarchi, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious.

[Podcast Announcer]

Cases from the past.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers. Known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s, her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death.

[Podcast Announcer]

Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season.

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Melissa Jeltson]

Hi listeners, I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of what Happened to Talina Czar? It's the story of a woman who disappears in the early days of COVID lockdowns and the the group of online sleuths who try to find her.

[Michelle Leonard]

I didn't want to be talked out of this plan.

[Podcast Announcer]

After I post this, I am turning off my phone for exactly this reason.

[Melissa Jeltson]

I kept just kind of asking everybody.

[Podcast Announcer]

Anyone else think this is strange?

[Diane Downs' Daughter]

You'll notice that about me. I don't lurk. I I'm out there. I'm an action kind of girl.

[Melissa Jeltson]

You can now get access to episodes of what happened to Talina Zar? 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription. I'm a subscriber and you should be too. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.