The Escape

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Happy Face" – Episode: "The Escape"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Happy Face
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Description: "Happy Face" delves into the life of Melissa Moore, who discovers in 1995 that her father, Keith Hunter Jesperson, is a serial killer. The podcast explores Jesperson's brutal crimes and the ensuing cat-and-mouse pursuit by detectives and the media. It also intimately examines the dark legacy he left for his children, particularly Melissa, as she seeks to understand her own identity and forge a better future.

Episode Overview: "The Escape"

• Release Date: October 13, 2020

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Escape," host Andrea Gunning explores a pivotal moment in the narrative of Diane Downs, a central figure entwined in the complex web of true crime that "Happy Face" unpacks. This episode focuses on Diane Downs' daring prison escape, the subsequent manhunt, and the legal intricacies that followed.

Diane Downs' Escape from Prison

At [05:36], Andrea Gunning introduces Diane Downs' attorney, Stephen Gorham, who provides an in-depth account of Downs' escape in 1987. Diane, incarcerated at the Oregon Women's Correctional Center near Salem, Oregon, managed to breach the prison's formidable defenses by scaling and jumping over a 16-foot barbed wire fence ([10:12]).

Stephen Gorham [08:17]: "So when, when the escape happens and she goes over the wire, it's like, wow, she's got some guts that go straight over the fence."

Gorham explains that Diane utilized her knowledge of the local environment, particularly Mill Creek, to evade detection by authorities. Her strategic planning involved disposing of her clothes in the water to eliminate scent trails, enhancing her chances of remaining undetected ([20:14]).

Harboring and Relationships Post-Escape

Once escaped, Diane sought refuge with two men, Bob and Wayne, who lived just blocks away from the women's prison. Through Erik Mason, a reporter covering the escape, listeners gain insight into the dynamics between Diane and her hosts.

Eric Mason [08:19]: "I saw them as people who needed help... They knew I was a reporter. And so I got to know them in the months leading up to her escape."

Wayne developed a complex relationship with Diane, almost bordering on romantic involvement, which complicated their ability to protect her from law enforcement ([14:08]).

Eric Mason [14:08]: "Wayne was the type of guy who was street-smart and really didn't like snitches or people that turned other people in."

The Manhunt and Capture

Despite extensive searches, Diane remained hidden in plain sight, staying close to the prison and blending into the local community. Her familiarity with the area and the assistance from Bob and Wayne allowed her to evade immediate capture. However, her escape was short-lived, culminating in her apprehension and transfer to a more secure facility.

Stephen Gorham [20:14]: "She threw something over the top and kept going."

Legal Perspectives and Post-Conviction Efforts

Stephen Gorham, serving as Diane's post-conviction attorney, discusses the challenges in representing a client he believes to be guilty. He underscores the ethical boundaries of criminal defense, particularly when a client confesses guilt.

Stephen Gorham [28:02]: "If your client tells you that they're guilty, they can't get on the stand and have them say, 'I'm not guilty.'"

Gorham highlights Diane's letter to her attorney, where she alters her account of the crime, further solidifying his stance on her culpability.

Stephen Gorham [43:04]: "To a criminal defense attorney, it's a damning letter."

Diane Downs' Sentencing and Parole

Diane was ultimately sentenced to life imprisonment with a minimum of 50 years ([37:52]). Despite multiple parole hearings, including the latest one on September 23, she has been consistently denied release, primarily due to her lack of remorse and the high-profile nature of her crimes.

Stephen Gorham [43:44]: "I don't believe she'll ever get out on parole."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Stephen Gorham [08:17]: "So when, when the escape happens and she goes over the wire, it's like, wow, she's got some guts that go straight over the fence."
• Eric Mason [14:08]: "Wayne was the type of guy who was street-smart and really didn't like snitches or people that turned other people in."
• Stephen Gorham [28:02]: "If your client tells you that they're guilty, they can't get on the stand and have them say, 'I'm not guilty.'"
• Stephen Gorham [43:44]: "I don't believe she'll ever get out on parole."

Conclusion

"The Escape" offers a gripping exploration of Diane Downs' attempted freedom and the subsequent legal battles that ensued. Through interviews with key individuals like Stephen Gorham and Eric Mason, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the complexities surrounding Downs' case. The episode not only chronicles the events of the escape but also delves into the ethical dilemmas faced by legal professionals and the impact of high-profile crimes on parole decisions.

Looking Ahead: In the next episode, "Bone Valley Season 2," the story continues to unravel the intricate connections between Melissa Moore and her father's dark legacy, further exploring the personal and legal ramifications of living in the shadow of a criminal mastermind.

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Listen to "Happy Face" on Paramount+ starting March 20th, where the thrilling drama adaptation stars Annaleigh Ashford and Dennis Quaid, bringing Melissa Moore's true-life story to the screen.

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast. This podcast is supported by Talkspace. When my husband came home from his military deployment, readjusting was hard for all of us. Thankfully, I found Talkspace. Talkspace provides professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatric providers online. Military members, veterans and their dependents ages 13 and older can get fast access to providers, all from the privacy of their computers or smartphones. I just answered a few questions online, and Talkspace matched me with a therapist. We meet when it's convenient for me and I can message her anytime. It was so easy to set up and they accept Tricare. Therapy was going so well, my husband and I started seeing a couple's therapist through Talkspace, too. Talkspace works with most major insurers, including Tricare. Match with a licensed therapist [e-mail] military go to talkspace.com military to get started today. That's talkspace.com military I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done? The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific.

[Stephen Gorham]

And quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bring forward allegations in the future. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Scofield in Bone Valley season one. Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil. I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known. At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremerki Hunter, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers, known as the Wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s, her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Stephen Gorham]

One thing I learned in representing people at the state hospital and sort of Representing people at the state penitentiaries. As Americans, we have taught ourselves that freedom is the most important thing in the world. We want our freedom. We don't want to be in prison or state hospital. So it's not surprising that someone would want to escape. It didn't do much other than add to her mystique. She had the ability to jump over a fence that had lots of barbed wire on the top and physically be able to do that. My name's Stephen Gorham. G O R H A M. I'm an attorney in Salem. I've been an attorney since 1975. I went to Cornell University as an undergrad and then as a graduate I went to as a law school. I went to Willamette University in Salem, Oregon, where I have been practicing since 1975.

[Andrea Gunning]

Steve represented Diane Downs as her post conviction attorney. Post conviction attorneys represent a client after the verdict and will typically assist a guilty party in making the case that they were not adequately represented by their counsel in the courtroom. They try to help them appeal the verdict or provide other post conviction relief.

[Stephen Gorham]

My first step in representing somebody at the time in a post conviction was to go visit them. So I'm sure that Diane was in Oregon's Correctional center here in Salem. It happens to be about a mile from my office on State Street. The women's prison was built right next to the Oregon State Penitentiary right outside their wall. The Oregon State Penitentiary was built in the 1800s sometime, and it's a walled prison. And they built the women's prison right outside the wall. And the women's prison was a one story building with a fence around it. They had a small yard that was outside the building. You could see the yard from State street because it's right off of State street and it was surrounded by tall chain link fence with barbed wire on the top.

[Andrea Gunning]

But that's not where our story in this episode really begins. Shortly after Steve took on Diane as a client, she escaped from prison.

[Stephen Gorham]

So also in 1987, that's when Diane escaped. She jumped over the fence. She knew some people. She had other inmates at the Oregon State Women's Correctional center, new people in Salem, some of whom lived a couple blocks from the women's prison. So there were houses that were rental houses on State Street. And when Diane escaped, she got picked up by a couple because she was either hitchhiking or I'm not sure why they let her out, but they didn't take very far. They let her out.

[Andrea Gunning]

Eric Mason was working as a reporter in Oregon at the time of Diane's escape, he traveled with a photographer around the area to find potential places Diane could have escaped to, hoping to be among the first to figure out her whereabouts.

[Eric Mason]

She's at Oregon Women's Correctional Facility and doing the rest of her life there. And, you know, it's not the most.

[Andrea Gunning]

High.

[Eric Mason]

Security max facility in the world there. There's a couple of chain link fences and today it's closed. But at the time, you know, it was where all kinds of women involved in strange crimes were being held. And so she's been there a while. And I think life is just grinding on for Diane. And just down the street, I mean, literally blocks from the Women's Correctional for center, are two guys that are semi homeless, working poor, who are there. And crazy as it is, once again, my path crosses these two people as I'm devoting and donating some time down at the Union Gospel Mission to make dinner and do some other things there for them. And I meet these two guys, Wayne and Bob, Wayne and Bob. And you know, I strike a conversation at the dinner hour with them. And they're two very interesting guys. And so they begin to tell me about their life. And the reason I went to go visit their house was because there were sources of information about how the world of drugs worked in this town.

[Andrea Gunning]

So you saw them as a stringer potentially?

[Eric Mason]

Well, I saw them as people who needed help, and obviously they needed help from the Union Gospel Mission, but they also wanted to tell me stories, and they knew I was a reporter. And so I got to know them in the months leading up to her escape. So when, when the escape happens and she goes over the wire, it's like, wow, she's got some guts that go straight over the fence.

[Andrea Gunning]

How tall is this fence?

[Eric Mason]

I'm thinking, you know, 14, 18ft or so. She goes up and over the top of it and is out and gone. And day goes by and two days goes by, and I'm thinking, wow, she might have actually escaped and got away with it. And so every day the assignment was be the first to find Diane and get it on tv. And if you can't, make sure you get her arrested being walked in. And so we were driving everywhere, myself and the photographer, I remember this. We were thinking, okay, she could be out in farm country, she could be living down by the Willamette River. She could be trying to find the next guy already. And so we were, we were trying to check off all the boxes of things we'd done. And I said to the photographer, you rode around each day with a photog. I said, wouldn't it be weird if she ended up at Wayne's house along the river, just a few blocks from the Women's Correctional center, the prison, and darn it, that's where she was.

[Andrea Gunning]

Eric offered to show me the area firsthand, so he got in his car and toured the area near the prison where Diane fled.

[Eric Mason]

So, and then there's Mill Creek. You can see Mill Creek. And then on the other side of Mill Creek is the women's facility. And you can see that fence there.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, I see the barbed wire fence. That's pretty intense.

[Eric Mason]

Yeah. And so at the time, though, it was not as well fortified as it is now. And Diane just basically climbed it, hopped over and kept going.

[Andrea Gunning]

I was surprised at how the prison was like a modern day castle with a river moat.

[Eric Mason]

There's big open brush on three sides of the place. And you'd expect, you would have thought, thought that if someone wanted to get out of town fast, they'd head towards the railroad tracks and into a box car or anything getting out of town and taken off. But that's not what was going to happen here. And then the state police office where they brought her in was right over here.

[Andrea Gunning]

And.

[Eric Mason]

That'S where I first saw Bob and Wayne being led away. Almost as if, you know, they were on the same perp walk as Diane Downs, but they were all together right here.

[Andrea Gunning]

I wanted to know what Bob and Wayne were like, these two men who harbored Diane after her escape.

[Eric Mason]

Bob was, you know, studious looking and, you know, had glasses and kind of looked like a computer geek. And Wayne was a fairly decent looking individual and looked like he could be a landscaper, you know, in Southern California. And they really did have little odd jobs every day that they would do, but they never really made enough money to have a nice place. And so they had this tiny little hovel along Mill Creek and then would go down and have dinner at the Union Gospel Mission. And that was their life. So to have a notorious convicted killer show up in the middle of the night at their house, you know, it was quite a surprise. But, you know, they certainly weren't going to throw her out either. I think what was later determined was that she used the creek, Mill Creek, to be able to confound the dogs. And she knew enough about tracking that she went down that creek. And so I think one of the first things she did is she got rid of her clothes and I think left them in the water. I'm not sure how what level of nakedness that she was. But when she showed up at Bob and Wayne's place, she was cold, didn't have her clothes or most of them, and just needed to get warm and a place to stay. And I believe, and I'm gonna have to go back to check to see this is true, that she had some correspondence with people outside the prison. It was a pen pal, and I'm not sure how that worked into it, but they finally looked at her tablet and began to figure out who she'd been talking with. And so that's what helped them figure out part of, you know, what her plans were and how she was getting out and whatnot.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was reported, though, that Wayne said he. He fell in love with her.

[Eric Mason]

Yes. And so I remember Wayne almost thinking and saying things to the effect of, I couldn't believe my good fortune, you know, here I am, a marginally employed but mostly homeless man in Salem, Oregon, and the woman of my dreams comes walking through the door almost half naked.

[Andrea Gunning]

This podcast is supported by Talkspace. When my husband came home from his military deployment, readjusting was hard for all of us. Thankfully, I found Talkspace. Talkspace provides professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatric providers online. Military members, veterans, and their dependents, ages 13 and older can get fast access to providers, all from the privacy of their computers or smartphones. I just answered a few questions online, and Talkspace matched me with a therapist. We meet when it's convenient for me, and I can message her anytime. It was so easy to set up, and they accept Tricare. Therapy was going so well, my husband and I started seeing a couples therapist through Talkspace too. Talkspace works with most major insurers, including Tricare. Match with a licensed therapist [e-mail] military go to talkspace.com military to get started today. That's talkspace.com military yo, K pop fans. It's your boy, Bom Han. And I'm bringing you something epic. Introducing the K Factor, the podcast that takes you straight into the heart of K pop. We're talking music reviews, exclusive interviews, and deep dives into the industry like never before. For from producers and choreographers to idols and trainees, we're bringing you the real stories behind the music that you love. And yeah, we're keeping it 100, discussing everything from comebacks and concepts to the mental health side of the business. Because K Pop isn't just a genre. It's a whole world. And we're exploring every corner of it. And here's the best part. Fans get to call in, drop opinions and even join us live at events. You never know where we might pop up next. So listen to the K factor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This isn't just a podcast. It's a movement. Are you ready? Let's go. Let's go. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community. She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

[Stephen Gorham]

No.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done? You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future. This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley season one.

[Stephen Gorham]

I just knew him as a kid.

[Andrea Gunning]

Long, silent voices from his past came forward, and he was just staring at me. And they had secrets of their own to share. Gilbert King. I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott. I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it. Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil. I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known. If the cops and everything would have done their job properly, my dad would.

[Stephen Gorham]

Have been in jail.

[Andrea Gunning]

I would have never existed. I never expected to find myself in this place. Now I need to tell you how I got here. At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Bone Valley Season 2 Jeremy, Jeremy, I.

[Stephen Gorham]

Want to tell you something.

[Andrea Gunning]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. From what I read with Wayne, it sounded like Wayne and Diane had a relationship. Diane was sleeping with Wayne, so I don't think he would easily give her up if that was the case.

[Eric Mason]

That's true. I think Wayne was the type of guy who was street smart and really didn't like snitches or people that turned other people in. And so, yeah, I would imagine he kept things pretty quiet. What I really can't believe is that given the search that was done, that for those days following the escape, she stayed right where she was and no one found her. That's the part that's amazing that she was able to basically hide right here in plain sight. See, I think it's okay. So here's where we go over the creek. You can see it's very vegetated down there. And someone just walking up that creek would have tried to find someone's back porch, which she did.

[Andrea Gunning]

So this neighborhood is cute. It looks like it's an older neighborhood with little bungalows. That actually looks very different than what I thought it would look like in my head because these houses are just adorable, like painted little ladies, right?

[Eric Mason]

And then the ones that are right on the creek, some of them are just like an outbuilding to another house.

[Andrea Gunning]

Oh, okay. I see here at the creek, just some of these.

[Eric Mason]

See this little building here?

[Andrea Gunning]

Oh, yeah. It looks like an outhouse attached to this house.

[Eric Mason]

It's just a little outbuilding, like a shed. And that's what those two. It was very much like a shed. And you can see. See the water. You know, someone could just sort of swim along this creek, and their scent, you couldn't follow that trail. And I think that's. I think that's what she was able.

[Andrea Gunning]

To do after she was captured. Diane's brother James was one of the only people close to her who was able to speak to her about the escape.

[Stephen Gorham]

I wish she'd have called me.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's what I said at the time.

[Stephen Gorham]

Actually, I remember it. I was working and I was working at a place in San Joaquin Valley, California. You know, I wanted to take her to Canada or take her to Mexico.

[Andrea Gunning]

Or just take her away from here and to where she'd be safe.

[Stephen Gorham]

But, yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

She didn't, obviously. What did you think when she was found?

[Stephen Gorham]

I've had conversations with her about this. I thought it's not surprising she was caught. I guess, you know, she's looking for affection, she's looking for love.

[Andrea Gunning]

You know, she's just looking to be.

[Stephen Gorham]

Held and tell everything's going to be okay, you know, And I guess maybe that's why I wanted her to call me, so I could tell her that.

[Andrea Gunning]

What were your conversations about? About that time that she escaped.

[Stephen Gorham]

She scaled over the walls and took off. And she was going to go there and she said, oh my God, what.

[Andrea Gunning]

Do I do now? You know what I mean?

[Stephen Gorham]

Best laid plans. It's like she get over and it's.

[Andrea Gunning]

Like, oh shit, where am I going to go?

[Stephen Gorham]

And so, I mean, even if you.

[Andrea Gunning]

Go to the house you have in.

[Stephen Gorham]

Mind to go to, it's like, well, what's your next?

[Andrea Gunning]

Her next plan was to find the.

[Stephen Gorham]

Person that did this.

[Andrea Gunning]

And every time she said that to.

[Stephen Gorham]

Herself, it's like, how do you do that? You know what I mean? And so she got to this person's.

[Andrea Gunning]

House and was shacking up with this.

[Stephen Gorham]

Guy and never got to the part of finding the person that did this.

[Andrea Gunning]

Well, she also had tons of authorities looking for her, so I don't think she's going to. That's what I mean. It's like you get over the fence.

[Stephen Gorham]

And it's like, oh my goodness gracious, what do you do?

[Andrea Gunning]

I can't even fathom, like the mental. 16 foot tall with circular razor wire.

[Stephen Gorham]

On the top of. There's two of them.

[Andrea Gunning]

How did she do it?

[Stephen Gorham]

She threw, threw something over the top.

[Andrea Gunning]

And just climbed over. Literally, she just climbed over two 16 foot fences with circular, not barbed wire.

[Stephen Gorham]

But razor wire on top of them.

[Andrea Gunning]

Once caught, Diane was transferred to another prison under the Interstate compact, likely to prevent the Oregon Women's Penitentiary from receiving any additional public attention that arose from her presence there.

[Stephen Gorham]

You know, they sent her to New Jersey after her escape, which is semi surprising in the sense it's not so surprising that they sent her out of town because at the time our women's prison was, you know, not the most secure. And the interstate compact is basically like baseball trading or football trading. You know, you, you trade an inmate for another inmate. And that's pretty much what it is.

[Andrea Gunning]

I read records that, that knew that there was a lot of rejections for who would house Diane Downs after the escape. And that New Jersey said, we will take Diane if we could send you two inmates when we have the need. When the need arises.

[Stephen Gorham]

Yeah, you know, and I'm, I'm relatively sure they, they moved Diane to get her out of town so that the publicity wasn't always there. And again, originally because she had escaped. And a lot of times they, they do the prisoner swaps or the interstate compact to try to get a new environment for the inmate where they will, you know, maybe under different circumstances, in a different prison estate, they will, you know, get better, whatever that means. I'm sure no one wanted to take Diane because of the publicity. And then, you know, she tried to escape that prison.

[Andrea Gunning]

I didn't know that again.

[Stephen Gorham]

Oh, yeah, you didn't know she tried to escape New Jersey?

[Andrea Gunning]

No.

[Stephen Gorham]

But while she was in New Jersey, she got. Had a personal relationship with a man who was a helicopter pilot who was going to steal a helicopter and land in New Jersey and escape with Diane again. And he gave that conspiracy up. I'm not going to get this right. You know, a couple months before it was supposed to go into practice because of something that happened. He didn't get caught. He confessed and turned himself in. And he may have been from Seattle. A lot of these details aren't there. But I know I went to see her in the New Jersey prison after she was there before this escape attempt, because I was back visiting my family and it was just easy for me to do to visit her. And I wanted to visit her just because, you know, mainly to see what a New Jersey prison looked like. And then when this escape attempt happened, it was just weird, you know. And that's when she got sent to the California prison, which is, as I understand it, and I don't know that this is true, the worst women's prison in the world, early in the United States.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'll do some research on that. I know that I was talking to the infamous Betty Boderick and she's housed with Diane. Well, not. They're not like cellmates or anything, but they actually know each other in that prison, which is interesting to me. But how, you know, different inmates are connected.

[Stephen Gorham]

Yeah. And as I said, I went through some of these records on Ojan and some of the things that she was claiming. Again, I didn't go into any of the details, but she's claiming, you know, that she was, you know, a cellmate of hers and this Boderock lady and, you know, I think dreaming up all sorts of conspiracy theories concerning who she's been selled with.

[Andrea Gunning]

Initially, Steve reserved his opinions on Diane's guilt going solely off the court's verdict. His principles as an attorney prevented him from taking serious certain actions. If a client directly admitted guilt to him.

[Stephen Gorham]

Well, her daughter said that she was the perpetrator. Diane always said, at least at that time, that it was the bushy haired stranger. I believe I'm an ethical attorney, and an ethical attorney can't have his client get on the stand and lie. So if your client tells you that they're guilty, you can't put them on the stand and have them say, I'm not guilty. And when I say guilty and not guilty, I'm talking about the individual facts of the case.

[Andrea Gunning]

Right.

[Stephen Gorham]

A defendant has the absolute right to take the stand and defend themselves in a criminal case. So if you get somebody who tells you, I'll just use an example of killing. If somebody tells you, yeah, I shot this person, they can't get on the stand and say, I didn't shoot the person. If they do get on the stand and say, I didn't shoot the person and they've already told you and you believe that they did shoot the person, while they have the absolute right to get on the stand, you can ask them only one question.

[Andrea Gunning]

And what's that question?

[Stephen Gorham]

That question is what happens. You can't ask him any other questions. And you have to be careful how you present the case other than that. So knowing that from the beginning of my career and knowing that I was an ethical person, one of the things I try not to do when I first start to represent somebody is say, are you guilty? A criminal defense attorney's obligations are 99% to the clients. That 1% is to the court. That you can't let your client lie to the court. So I basically tell them that up front so they know the ground rules of what they should be telling me and what they shouldn't be telling me.

[Andrea Gunning]

You represented both Diane, Becky's mom, and then my dad. What stands out to you about their personalities? Are they similar? Are they. Would you say they're both narcissists, or what would be your assessment of the two?

[Stephen Gorham]

Well, I would say Diane was a narcissist, and I think your dad was too. You know, it's hard to. Your dad owned up to the crimes he did, which took a lot of guts. I'll say it this way. If Diane is guilty, which in all likelihood she is, she never owned up to the crime.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yo, K Pop fans, it's your boy Bom Han, and I'm bringing you something epic. Introducing the K Factor, the podcast that takes you straight into the heart of K pop. We're talking music reviews, exclusive interviews, and deep dives into the industry like never before. From producers and choreographers to idols and trainees. We're bringing you the real stories behind the music that you love. And yeah, we're keeping it hunted, discussing everything from comebacks and concepts to the mental health side of the business. Because K pop isn't just a genre. It's a whole world. And we're exploring every corner of it. And here's the best part. Fans get to call in, drop opinions, and even join us live at a events you never Know where we might pop up next? So listen to the K factor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This isn't just a podcast. It's a movement. Are you ready? Let's go. Let's go. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community. She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

[Stephen Gorham]

No.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done? You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future. This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley season one.

[Stephen Gorham]

I just knew him as a kid.

[Andrea Gunning]

Long, silent voices from his past came forward, and he was just staring at me. And they had secrets of their own to share. Gilbert King. I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott. I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it. Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil. I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.

[Eric Mason]

If the cops and everything would have.

[Andrea Gunning]

Done the job properly, my dad would have been in jail. I would have never existed. I never expected to find myself in this place. Now I need to tell you how I got here. At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Bone Valley Season 2 Jeremy.

[Stephen Gorham]

Jeremy, I want to tell you something.

[Andrea Gunning]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. Hi, listeners. I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of what Happened to Talina Czar? It's the story of a woman who disappears in the early days of COVID lockdowns and the group of online sleuths who try to find her. I didn't want to be talked out of this plan. After I post this I am turning off my phone for exactly this reason. I kept just kind of asking everybody. Anyone else think this is strange? You'll notice that about me. I don't lurk. I'm out there. I'm an action kind of girl. You can now get access to episodes of what Happened to Talina Zhar 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription. I'm a subscriber and you should be too, so don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today. The main focus of Steve's post conviction relief was the forensic evidence presented at trial. Christie's testimony was difficult to disprove, but Steve knew that blood spatter evidence was controversial.

[Stephen Gorham]

Well, again, you look at the case and it was a big case, so there's a lot of paperwork. First of all, you have to, you know, read the transcript of the trial to understand how she got convicted and the facts that led to her conviction.

[Andrea Gunning]

And what were those? Do you remember what those were that led to her conviction?

[Stephen Gorham]

Well, I think her daughter testifying that she did it was the biggest fact, if I remember correctly. And then there was forensic evidence that tried to disprove her theory of the case. And one of the biggest parts of that was where she said everybody was situated at the time of the crime in or out of the car, and blood spatter evidence concerning that which came in at the trial. But again, as I said earlier, one of the main things you look at is ineffective assistance of counsel. Meaning what did the original attorney do right and what did he do wrong?

[Andrea Gunning]

And what would you say he did? This would be Jim Jagger. What would you say he did right and what would you say he did wrong?

[Stephen Gorham]

Well, I do remember looking into the blood spatter and though I remember at least somewhat concentrating on the blood spatter, that he didn't do that right. I mean, over the years, there's been some controversy over blood spatter. Forensic people prosecuting, quote, unquote, scientists believe you can tell a lot about what goes on from blood spatter. Some people don't believe it's very scientific at all. But clearly the state tried to prove that Diane was not telling the truth based on where the blood spatter was and how it existed in and around the car. Our case was to try to show that Jagger didn't do a very good job in putting holes in the blood spatter testimony of the experts in the case.

[Andrea Gunning]

What was ultimately her sentence from the trial?

[Stephen Gorham]

She got life with a minimum, I think, of 50 years.

[Andrea Gunning]

So she's contested a lot of different things. And one of the big issues that was contested, I believe, is that the gun was never found.

[Stephen Gorham]

I believe. I have this feeling that either Diane said that the gun was thrown in the river, or somehow that the gun got in the river. Okay. But I believe the police searched the river. But I personally believe the guns in the river. I'm not sure I could tell you why I believe that, but I think that's where it is.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then came the letter. After her conviction, Diane wrote a letter to her defense attorney, Jim Jagger. In it, Diane changes her story about the night of the shooting.

[Stephen Gorham]

Well, he's representing her, and he had it in his file. And at some point, the state asked him for this letter, and. And he had to turn it over to the state. And this is the importance of this letter to me. It may be not important to anybody else, but to me, if you remember, after the children were shot and they were on the road next to the Mackenzie highway, she's driving to the hospital in Springfield very slowly. And at the trial, she. Someone who followed her, I think a man maybe in a pickup truck who was following her said, geez, she's driving. This person, she didn't know her from Adam. This person's driving very slowly. Something's going on, you know, so they used. The state argued, I think that she was driving very slowly to the hospital so the children would die.

[Andrea Gunning]

How long could you be sitting next.

[Stephen Gorham]

To your children as they're dying? Yeah, I can't remember how she explained it. Probably she just didn't know where she was or whatever. And, you know, the trauma of it. This letter basically says that somebody in the pickup truck was following her on the road. This is before the killing. He passed her, then he slowed down. She passed him. I may not be right about that part. And then she stopped because she was interested in this guy.

[Andrea Gunning]

So you put your children in danger in the middle of the night to stop for a guy you're interested in? I don't get it.

[Stephen Gorham]

I think I knew about this letter, but if I didn't know about the letter, then I think her change in her story and this letter is important in my mind because it really describes the slow driving before the crime and that she was interested in just picking up this guy who was in this pickup truck. And she basically, you know, since then, after she stopped and met this guy, then he became the bushy head stranger, and. And he's the one who shot the kids.

[Andrea Gunning]

The letter starts out with an almost confessional tone. It begins November 7, 1984, Salem, Oregon. Dear Jim, I'm not really sure how to start this letter, but I guess the best way to make an apology is to say I'm sorry. Now, you're probably wondering what this is all about. And when you're through reading, you'll probably drop this letter and say, damn you, Diane, like you have so many times before. Your blood pressure will go up. And I'm sorry about that, too. I'm sorry about a lot of things, really. I only hope that you will forgive me for not being totally honest with you. It's just that it's so hard for me to put myself in someone else's hands. I find it hard to fully trust anyone not to hurt me. I needed to control myself and the situation, and I've been that way for a few years. It has been a hard lesson to learn and I can't guarantee I'll be cured forever. But I know now that I should have placed this whole problem in your hands and let you deal with it. But I was afraid. Silly maybe, but I was afraid you would lose respect for me and. Well, let me explain. The letter goes on to retell Diane's version of what took place the night of the shooting. She states that the shaggy haired stranger was actually a man who was driving behind her on the road. According to her, he passed her and slowed down. It was kind of a flirtatious dance between the two cars and she eventually pulled over. She claims the man wanted weed and when she opened the trunk, he took out the case containing Steve's gun. After making advances on Diane, he proceeded to shoot her and her children one by one before fleeing. That was really interesting reading the letter, but it's really interesting to me.

[Stephen Gorham]

Oh, yeah, Well, I mean, to a criminal defense attorney it's a damning letter.

[Andrea Gunning]

And.

[Stephen Gorham]

Who knows what else she had told Jim Jagger. And he obviously did his best in representing her. I think someplace in the letter she said she's told him several stories or something like that. It would have been hard for him.

[Andrea Gunning]

Though Steve tried to remain an ethical attorney and go on the basis of Diane's proclamation of innocence, the letter finally convinced him of her guilt. The change in her story from what she claimed multiple times in trial and to the press showed Steve that Diane most likely wasn't telling the truth and potentially never had. He doesn't believe she'll do well at her future parole hearings.

[Stephen Gorham]

No, and I don't believe she will have a chance. First of all, again, the parole board over the Years has been very conservative. I wouldn't say the parole board has ever been liberal in the state of Oregon. So they do look at, I mean, a parole board should be looking at the person, the individual. What you should be looking at is, of course, the crime, the effect of the crime, especially these days, on the victims. And, you know, it used to be the victims really didn't much matter. And then we went through a. A phase that still exists of victims rights. And part of that is the parole board wants you to come clean. If they believe that you're guilty of the crime, they want you to say you're guilty of the crime and show remorse for your guilt. So the fact that Diane has yet to, you know, show much remorse or show that she is guilty, it's going to be hard for her to get out on parole by any parole board. And frankly, especially crimes that have such publicity concerning them, I don't believe that she'll ever get out on parole.

[Andrea Gunning]

Diane Downs was denied paroled in 2008 and again in 2010. Diane's parole board hearing took place just recently September 23, and she was denied parole. On the next episode, Michelle presents Becky with the conclusion of her efforts to trace Becky's paternity and identify her biological father. Also coming in a few days, a bonus episode, the bizarre letter Diane Downs wrote to Jim Jagger read in its entirety. Although we were unable to present the entire letter in this episode due to time constraints, we feel that you, the listener, should hear this bizarre retelling of the night of the crime in Diane's own words. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done? The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific.

[Stephen Gorham]

And quite frankly, I question how many.

[Andrea Gunning]

Other women are out there that may.

[Stephen Gorham]

Bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in in Bone Valley season one. Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil. I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known. At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarke, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers, known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s. Her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi listeners, I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of what Happened to Talina Zar? It's the story of a woman who disappears in the early days of COVID lockdowns and the group of online sleuths who try to find her. I didn't want to be talked out of this plan. After I post this, I am turning off my phone for exactly this reason. I kept just kind of asking everybody. Anyone else think this is strange? You'll notice that about me. I don't lurk. I'm out there. I'm an action kind of girl. You can now get access to episodes of what Happened to Talina Zar? 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription. I'm a subscriber and you should be too, so. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search iHeart True Crime plus and subscribe today. You're listening to an iHeart podcast.