Truth and Lies

Summary

Happy Face Podcast Episode Summary: "Truth and Lies"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Happy Face
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: Truth and Lies
• Release Date: September 1, 2020

---

Introduction

"Happy Face" delves deep into the harrowing true-life story of Melissa Moore and her struggle to reconcile her identity following the revelation that her father, Keith Hunter Jesperson, is a notorious serial killer. In the episode titled "Truth and Lies," listeners are taken on an emotional journey as Melissa, now going by Becky, navigates the complexities of her past, her mother's brutal crimes, and her quest to uncover the truth about her biological father.

---

Becky's Discovery and Quest for Identity

The episode opens with Becky confronting the traumatic reality of her origins. Diane Downs, her biological mother, perpetrated a heinous crime in 1983, shooting her three children, killing Cheryl, and leaving Becky with two surviving siblings, Kristi and Danny. This act not only shattered lives but also cast a long shadow over Becky's identity.

Becky reflects on her turmoil:

"When 11-year-old Becky found out her biological mother was Diane Downs, it disrupted her identity and changed the course of her behavior and her life."
(04:13)

Becky's journey is marked by her relentless search for her biological father, a pursuit fraught with uncertainty and emotional turmoil. The lack of information about her father's identity has left her grappling with questions about her own potential psychological makeup, mirroring her mother's intelligence and charisma.

---

Interaction with James Frederickson

A pivotal moment in the episode is Becky's interaction with James Frederickson, Diane's father. Their conversation reveals deep-seated tensions and conflicting agendas. James staunchly defends Diane's innocence, a stance that Becky challenges during their dialogue.

James expresses his distrust:

"There is a theory in domestic violence cases known as the cycle of abuse... These are just parts about the infidelity and then we start talking about the abuse."
(12:09)

Becky confronts James with the painful truths of her past, questioning his belief in Diane's innocence and seeking clarity about her father's identity.

Becky challenges James:

"You don't know, you know what I mean?"
(36:18)

The conversation reaches a tense climax when Becky demands to know who her biological father is, leading James to agree to a DNA test that could potentially shed light on her origins.

Becky asserts her quest:

"The truth needs to be out there."
(22:47)

---

Emotional and Psychological Impact

Throughout the episode, the psychological scars left by Diane's actions are evident. Becky's struggle is not just about uncovering facts but also about healing and finding her place in a world marked by her mother's violence.

Becky shares her fears:

"I'm scared to go on this journey because what if he is, you know, deceased? What if he doesn't want me in his life?"
(05:27)

Joel Kern, another figure in the narrative, provides additional insights into the complexities of familial ties and the burden of legacy. His reflections highlight the broader implications of Diane's crimes on the lives intertwined with hers.

---

Confronting the Past and Seeking Closure

As the episode progresses, Becky and James navigate their strained relationship, confronting painful memories and differing perspectives on Diane's guilt. James's unwavering belief in Diane's innocence stands in stark contrast to Becky's desire for truth and closure.

James insists on Diane's innocence:

"There is no doubt in my mind that you would be."
(38:24)

Becky, however, remains resolute in her pursuit of the truth, aiming to reconcile her mother's actions with her own sense of self. The potential DNA test emerges as a beacon of hope, promising answers that have long eluded her.

Becky emphasizes the importance of her journey:

"I just believe that if you need to open your... the truth needs to be out there."
(22:47)

---

Conclusion and Future Directions

"Truth and Lies" serves as a poignant exploration of identity, trauma, and the relentless pursuit of truth. Becky’s interaction with James Frederickson not only uncovers hidden facets of her past but also sets the stage for future revelations. The episode concludes with the anticipation of the DNA test results, which promise to either validate or challenge the narratives that have defined Becky's existence.

Becky anticipates the next steps:

"With this, Becky will hopefully finally be able to confirm once and for all that she's in fact the biological daughter of Diane Downs."
(42:51)

Listeners are left with a profound understanding of the emotional labyrinth Becky's undertaking, highlighting the broader themes of forgiveness, understanding, and the quest for personal truth amidst a backdrop of familial deceit and tragedy.

---

Key Quotes

• Becky on her fear of discovery:
  "I'm scared to go on this journey because what if he is, you know, deceased? What if he doesn't want me in his life?"
  (05:27)

• James on Diane's innocence:
  "There is no doubt in my mind that you would be."
  (38:24)

• Becky on the necessity of truth:
  "The truth needs to be out there."
  (22:47)

• Becky reflecting on her identity struggle:
  "At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer."
  (18:16)

---

Final Thoughts

"Truth and Lies" is a deeply emotional episode that captures the intricate dynamics of familial bonds tainted by crime and deception. Through Becky’s relentless search for identity and truth, the podcast invites listeners to empathize with her journey towards healing and self-discovery. The episode masterfully combines personal narratives with the broader implications of Diane Downs' actions, offering a compelling exploration of legacy, truth, and the enduring quest for understanding one’s place in the world.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone let's face it in therapy, by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits, or another challenge that you need support to work through, it's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers, and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A CE80 to match with a licensed therapist. Today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code SPACE80.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline.

[Joel Kern]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?

[Jeremy Scott]

The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific, and quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jeremy Scott]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Scofield in In Bone Valley Season one.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad, it's, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Jeremy Scott]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarky Hunter, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers, Known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s, her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joel Kern]

I've heard a lot of different theories about my biological father. I have heard that he was a reporter. I heard that he was somebody that worked with her at the post office. I heard that it was another inmate's husband. I've heard that it was just some guy off the street. She knew she was gonna get pregnant and she wanted to get pregnant and just picked the first guy she saw. So, you know, I don't know.

[Becky]

In 1983, Diane Downs shot her three children, killing her daughter Cheryl and forever altering the lives of not only her two surviving children, but the other people in her life. Before her imprisonment, she purposely set out to give birth to another child, who would incidentally become another life permanently changed by Diane's actions. There's a tired old idiom that people often use when confronting the things they've buried and hidden. The truth will set you free. The fact is, sometimes the truth is its own prison. Like when the truth of who your father is becomes a dark shadow that follows you and suffocates you until you finally are forced to confront it. When 11 year old Becky found out her biological mother was Diane Downs, it disrupted her identity and changed the course of her behavior and her life. Now she's seeking the other half of that puzzle, the identity of her biological father, someone who may or may not even know she exists. Will that truth help bring balance to the weight of her own truth? Or will it only further add to the chaos of her self image? Without knowing for sure the identity of Becky's father, one has to wonder if he himself is even aware that Becky is his.

[Joel Kern]

It crosses my mind sometimes. I mean, maybe he just doesn't want to believe that I could be that child or that he could be that father. Because I've been public now for 10 years with my story and if my biological father wanted to find me, he would have. The only things I can come up with are he doesn't know he's my biological father, he doesn't want to be my biological father, or he's deceased. I mean, if you are intimate with somebody and nine months later there's a baby, I would question that.

[Becky]

There was very little physical description of the father given and what's there didn't help narrow down the possibilities.

[Joel Kern]

My adopted mom, she told me that on my adoption paperwork that he was listed as being like 6:2. Blonde hair, blue eyes. That's all I know. I think that he's German or Danish. And that's it. I don't know anything else.

[Becky]

There's a certain piece to Becky's current situation. She's lived her entire life up to this point not knowing the identity of her biological father. And as far as she knows, he could be anyone. Someone good, someone interesting, someone loving, someone ready to embrace his long lost daughter with open arms. He could fit any template Becky wants or needs him to.

[Joel Kern]

I can decide who he is and I can, you know, think that he's an amazing person. And even if he's not, as long as he's a decent human being, I'd be happy. But I'm scared to go on this journey because what if he is, you know, deceased? What if he doesn't want me in his life? It's very, very scary to open this door. But I am very lucky to have the parents that I do have.

[Becky]

It's not just Becky's biological father who isn't a part of her life, but her two half siblings, Kristi and Danny. Sophie, survivors of Diane's attack, also live their own private lives, independent of any real relationship with Becky.

[Joel Kern]

I did reach out to them back in 2006. I found Christy online. We had a little bit of a conversation going. We spoke every couple of days. She told me a little bit about herself. I told her about myself. And one day I got a message that her and Danny don't want anything to do with me, that so much time had passed.

[Becky]

They don't want to get to know me More rejection. Christy and Danny knew about Becky, that they were related, that they shared the similar link and still wanted nothing to do with her.

[Joel Kern]

And it's understandable. What they went through, I could never even imagine. And maybe being in my life or meeting me would bring up some of that for them. I'm not sure.

[Becky]

Becky also reached out to Diane's father.

[Joel Kern]

I've spoken with Diane Downs father, Wes. He was a sweet man. He wanted to tell me a lot of the family history, but he also wanted to tell me about Diane and about her case and how she's innocent.

[Becky]

Becky didn't set out with the intention of speaking to Diane's father about the crime, but to some extent, it was unavoidable.

[Joel Kern]

I asked both Diane and her father when we first spoke all those years ago that I didn't want to hear about her guilt or her innocence. I just want to hear about her. I just want to know about the family I just want to know about my biological father. I wanted to leave the case out of it because I knew that all they were going to do was try and convince me that she's innocent. I just wanted to know them, that side of my family.

[Becky]

Is there a part of you that questions whether she's innocent?

[Joel Kern]

Diane's innocence has been a question for a lot of people for a long time. I don't believe she's innocent, no. But I know that people do.

[Becky]

There are some people, like Diane herself, who champion her innocence to this day. Her brother, James Frederickson, is one of them. James was one of the only family members willing to talk to Becky and me about Diane and their family history. He believes that part of understanding who Diane was is understanding her relationship with her ex husband Steve, who she blames for much of what she became. She sent James a letter detailing her marriage and relationships leading up to the shooting, which is oddly written mostly in third person. James shares a bit of that here.

[Podcast Announcer]

Basically, Steve came into our lives in 1971. We had moved Chandler to a farm, and Steve was a farmhand for the neighbors. My mom and dad wanted my sister to date other boys, but, you know, she was head over heels for Steve, and obviously Steve was head over heels for her. A judge married them on November 13, 1973, with only Greg Roach and the judge's secretary as witnesses, because Diane had no friends of her own at that time. She said that she got married and whatever the date was right. But the reality is that, you know, she got married because my dad went over to their house where they were out of the apartment and said, you will marry my daughter. We were Baptist house, you know what I mean? It's like you didn't want things to be bad or look bad, and so, you know, you will marry my daughter. Well, it happened fast because my dad was there, you know, and it's like, I'm going to use the term, it was a shotgun wedding. You know what I mean? Steve didn't want problems with my dad. My dad was really. He didn't physically scare Steve, but he intimidated him.

[Becky]

There is a theory in domestic violence cases known as the cycle of abuse, which often begins with rising tension and the need to placate the abuser. According to Diane, Steve began this cycle early into his and Diane's relationship.

[Podcast Announcer]

Steve controlled everyone she talked to, and he didn't let her talk to anyone. She was working then when they married, she was talking to other guys at lunchtime, and so he made her quit. He didn't permit A phone in her apartment. The grocery store was a three minute walk from where they lived at 100 West Rea Road. But she wasn't even permitted to go shopping without him. My sister was barely 18 and in her own mind going on 12 and had never given her new husband caused suspect of infidelity. But he was just sick with suspicion and jealousy.

[Becky]

Soon after they married, Steve was openly unfaithful to Diane.

[Podcast Announcer]

Two weeks after their marriage, Steve came home from work at the tire company where he worked in Mesa and announced he was going out with Janet, the receptionist. Diane was a bit confused by that. They were married after all. Steve blew up and he said, hey, I promised Janet they'd go out. The marriage vows came so quickly he forgot to call off their date. He said Diane just needed to iron his shirt and not make things harder for him. One month later, Steve went out with his buddies for New Year. Diane was told to wait at home until 11:45. She got tired of waiting and she walked to his friend's house. She did what she was told, but Steve wasn't there. Then they told Diane she'd have to wait in the line behind Debbie. So Steve was at the party with other women.

[Becky]

Diane was pregnant with Christy, her oldest daughter. And allegedly Steve saw this as an inconvenience and didn't want to deal with her.

[Podcast Announcer]

Two months later, Diane got pregnant. She had morning sickness like most women do. But instead of Steve hanging around and supporting her, Steve took her to his parents home in Gilbert because he wasn't ready to live with a sick wife. While Diane was at his parents house, Steve moved in with Jackie. When Jackie's husband Dale returned from California, Steve retrieved Dale from exile. These are just a little parts about the infidelity. So then we start talking about the abuse man.

[Becky]

According to Diane, Steve wasn't only controlling and unfaithful, but his abuse crossed the threshold into physical. In the meantime, Diane had a second child, Danny, and another daughter, Cheryl.

[Podcast Announcer]

In 1982, Diane was talking on the phone. Steve came home and heard her talking on the phone. He thought she was talking to a man on the phone. So he picked up the phone and slammed it down. They argued and he slapped and punched her. And the phone rang and Diane obviously answered it and it was actually Holly on the phone saying that Karen was afraid Steve was hitting her. Diane looked at Steve and said to Holly, yes, he is. He's still here. So he grabbed the phone and he hit Diane with it. She wrested the phone from him, hung it up and engaged him Diane and.

[Becky]

Steve were divorced at this point, but he still lived with her and the kids. Eventually, the abuse reached a breaking point and she started to fight back. A judge issued a restraining order, but Steve didn't stay away. In the meantime, Diane had bought a gun in an effort to protect herself. And then one day, Steve had her cornered in a bathroom.

[Podcast Announcer]

When he was kicking the door open, she fired a warning shot into the floor. The next week, he moved his furniture out of her home. As the stealthiest, he moved in. That was September 14, 1982.

[Becky]

In October of that year, Diane's four month old mobile home burned down and she sent her kids to live with Steve so they wouldn't be homeless. She eventually found another place to live, but Steve wouldn't allow her to have the children back. During this time, Diane sought affection from other men.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah, she was seeing Nick at that time.

[Becky]

Nick is Robert Knickerbocker, a married man who supposedly didn't like children. A fact that some believe may have later played into Diane's motivation for the shooting.

[Podcast Announcer]

Married men showed her the most affection because married men were safe to her, because married men didn't want to leave their wives. They just wanted some affection. And really, that's all Diane ever really wanted. She was still that 12 year old little girl striving for that affection. And she went out and she got that affection from married men. Foreign.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

This podcast is supported by Talkspace.

[Becky]

When my husband came home from his military deployment, readjusting was hard for all of us. Thankfully, I found Talkspace.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

Talkspace provides professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatric providers online. Military members, veterans and their dependents ages 13 and older can get fast access to providers, all from the privacy of their computers or smartphones.

[Becky]

I just answered a few questions online and Talkspace matched me with a therapist. We meet when it's convenient for me and I can message her anytime. It was so easy to set up and they accept Tricare. Therapy was going so well, my husband and I started seeing a couples therapist through Talkspace too.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

Talkspace works with most major insurers, including Tricare. Match with a licensed therapist [e-mail] military go to talkspace.com military to get started today. That's talkspace.com military.

[Bom Han]

Yo k pop fans. It's your boy, Bom Han, and I'm bringing you something epic.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

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[Bom Han]

Introducing the K Factor, the podcast that takes you straight into the heart of K Pop. We're talking music reviews, exclusive interviews, and deep dives into the industry like never before from producers and choreographers to idols and trainees. We're bringing you the real stories behind the music that you love. And yeah, yeah, we're keeping it 100, discussing everything from comebacks and concepts to the mental health side of the business. Because K pop isn't just a genre. It's a whole world, and we're exploring every corner of it. And here's the best part. Fans get to call in, drop opinions, and even join us live at events. You never know where we might pop up next. So listen to the K factor on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. This isn't just a podcast. It's a movement. Are you ready? Let's go. Let's go.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline.

[Joel Kern]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.

[Jeremy Scott]

She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

[Becky]

No.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?

[Jeremy Scott]

You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jeremy Scott]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley season one.

[Podcast Announcer]

I just knew him as a kid.

[Jeremy Scott]

Long, silent voices from his past came.

[Gilbert King]

Forward, and he was just staring at me.

[Jeremy Scott]

And they had secrets of their own to share.

[Gilbert King]

Gilbert King. I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

If the cops and everything would have done their job properly, my dad would have been in jail. I would have never existed.

[Jeremy Scott]

I never expected to find myself in this place. Now I need to tell you how I got here.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Jeremy Scott]

Bone Valley Season 2 Jeremy.

[Gilbert King]

Jeremy, I want to tell you something.

[Jeremy Scott]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Becky]

Diane's attention from other men is what led to her earlier divorce from Steve. Despite his own unfaithfulness, he believed she'd actually become pregnant with Danny due to an affair. He ended their marriage believing the pregnancy shouldn't have been possible due to vasectomy. Diane, it seemed, enjoyed being pregnant. She had a fourth child before Becky, but this time as a surrogate.

[Podcast Announcer]

So, yeah, it was just basically she went through the surrogacy program, delivered a baby, gave it to a family. She got $10,000 for that and that helped her in her life. Right.

[Becky]

When Diane became pregnant with Becky, James dismissed it as if it were almost like another surrogacy and I wasn't going.

[Podcast Announcer]

To have another niece and nephew. I was basically having another surrogate child. I wasn't attached to it, I wasn't bonded with it. I wasn't any of that.

[Becky]

After Diane's trial and Becky's birth, James didn't give the baby much thought.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah, they took her away. I mean, I knew that she existed, but I didn't know anything about her.

[Becky]

And that was that. Out of sight, out of mind. And then one day, Becky appeared on 20 20. James first impression was not a great one. What did you think when you first saw her on a news program?

[Podcast Announcer]

Honest answer. I didn't understand why she was making a fuss out of something if she had two perfectly wonderful, loving parents. I don't remember what exactly she said, but she basically said that she's going to make sure that Diane doesn't gain parole. I didn't like her at all.

[Becky]

James had made an earlier attempt to contact Becky and tried to convert her to his version of the truth.

[Podcast Announcer]

I reached out to her on social media and we talked and I tried talking to her about what I know is truth. And the story that she knows is the public story, the Ann Rule story. She really wasn't willing to listen.

[Becky]

Did that frustrate you?

[Podcast Announcer]

It's always frustrating, yeah. Every single time.

[Becky]

Watching 20 20, James grew increasingly frustrated with Ann Rule, author of the book Becky first discovered in the bookstore as an 11 year old. He believed that she had many things about Diane's story and the crime wrong and that Becky's view of her biological mother's guilt had been colored by that book. He also doesn't believe that Ann knew the identity of Becky's father, despite her claims.

[Podcast Announcer]

So people that are adopted, some of them have a desire to find out who they come from. Whether it's Diane the murderer or Diane the victim, she still knows that she comes from Diane and she doesn't know who her father is. And unfortunately, there's only two people that do. The author didn't know who the father was because she wasn't there during conception and has never been told by my sister who the person is. The only people that know are the mother and the father of Becky. It was some guy on her route, you know what I mean? It wasn't even a co worker. It was just some guy in her route, you know, I mean, I, I don't. I don't have any idea who it is.

[Becky]

He knows or maybe he doesn't.

[Podcast Announcer]

I would imagine so. I don't know. Yeah, Diane's never told him, so maybe he doesn't, you know, because, I mean, it's like, you know, she had a reputation of sleeping around, you know what I mean? She didn't, but that was her reputation. So, I mean, as a guy, if you are just, you know, sleeping with somebody just once or twice, then, you know, it's like you're not really concerned whether that person gets pregnant or not until they come knocking on your door. And so, no, he may not know. He may not know.

[Becky]

Despite the fact that James and Becky didn't see eye to eye in his earlier attempts to contact her, he wants another chance to explain, which may be his primary reason for his willingness to meet with her again 10 years ago.

[Podcast Announcer]

On the social media and then via phone. And then she didn't really want anything to do with the truth, as we stated earlier. You know, it's like talking about some of the letters that Diane wrote her after being in solitary. You need to believe that she's psychotic. You need to believe that she's a deviant sociopath or whatever those words are that they're throwing out there. But she wasn't willing to listen is my whole point. I talked to her then, she did not listen. And I'm hoping today she listens. And I'm always willing to talk to anybody who's willing to listen because the truth needs to be out there.

[Becky]

While I spoke to James, Becky was waiting in the studio to speak with him. Before bringing her in, I spoke to her alone for a few minutes to gauge her feelings on the situation and brief her on what to expect. I've been talking to James here, asking him about his feelings today about meeting you, finding out his intentions when we first got in the studio. He's quite overwhelmed because there's so much he wanted to share. And then what I found interesting, though, is that he really, really cared about today and wanted to come today with something sort of as an offering of information that he could provide. First of all, he has a letter from Diane, and it's written to Amy, to you, and it's going to talk about her time being pregnant with you.

[Podcast Announcer]

Wow.

[Becky]

Yeah.

[Joel Kern]

One thing that I am concerned about is Diane still denies that I'm her biological daughter. And so this letter is written to Amy, who I guess I don't identify with because she doesn't claim to be my biological mother. So there's been, like, a disconnect there. I'm not sure how to respond when James reads that letter because my initial, like, knee jerk reaction would be uncomfortable and upset.

[Becky]

The truth is, is that regardless of the name Amy or Rebecca, you were that baby.

[Joel Kern]

It doesn't feel like that. You know, it feels like almost a separate person completely. Especially because she doesn't believe that it's me.

[Becky]

She may not believe it's you, but your physical being had that experience as a newborn, as a child, as a baby girl coming into this world. And regardless of name, it was your experience.

[Joel Kern]

I wrote her back in 2006 when I put my son up for adoption. When wanting to connect with her, it feels like this letter that you guys have been talking about is almost going to be that connection that I needed back then and after we had such a meltdown with her in the last letter where she was very cruel, I don't want that connection with her. So I'm nervous about hearing this letter. And I don't know how I'll feel if I'm being completely transparent and honest. I'm almost scared that I want to have that connection. Like, there's that conflict of being the adopted child that you want, that connection with your biological parents. But it's. It's a battle in my heart, in my head, because I don't want to be connected to her.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is Mental health awareness Month, and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone, let's face it, in therapy, by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist. At Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits, or another challenge that you need support to work through. It's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S, P A, C E80. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code SPACE80.

[Bom Han]

Yo, K Pop fans, it's your boy Bom Han, and I'm bringing you something epic.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

Epic.

[Bom Han]

Introducing the K Factor, the podcast that takes you straight into the heart of K pop. We're talking music reviews, exclusive interviews, and deep dives into the industry like never before. From producers and choreographers to idols and trainees, we're bringing you the real stories behind music that you love. And yeah, we're keeping it 100, discussing everything from comebacks and concepts to the mental health side of the business. Because K pop isn't just a genre. It's a whole world, and we're exploring every corner of it. And here's the best part. Fans get to call in, drop opinions, and even join us live at events. You never know where we might pop up next. So listen to the K factor on the iHeartRadio radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This isn't just a podcast. It's a movement. Are you ready? Let's go.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all, his wife, Caroline.

[Joel Kern]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.

[Jeremy Scott]

She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

[Becky]

No?

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?

[Jeremy Scott]

You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I quite question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jeremy Scott]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley season one.

[Podcast Announcer]

I just knew him as a kid.

[Jeremy Scott]

Long, silent voices from his past came.

[Gilbert King]

Forward and he was just staring at me.

[Jeremy Scott]

And they had secrets of their own to share.

[Gilbert King]

Gilbert King. I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

If the cops and everything would have done the job properly, my dad would have been in jail. I would have never existed.

[Jeremy Scott]

I never expected to find myself in this place. Now I need to tell you how I got here.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Jeremy Scott]

Bone Valley Season 2 Jeremy.

[Gilbert King]

Jeremy, I want to tell you something.

[Jeremy Scott]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Joel Kern]

All right, so how are we gonna do this? Because he's gonna want to say hi the moment he walks through the door.

[Becky]

It's fine. Or she's bringing it right now.

[Joel Kern]

The recording. Hold on.

[Becky]

We've got set up ready. James, this is Becky.

[Joel Kern]

Hi.

[Podcast Announcer]

Hi. Good to see you.

[Joel Kern]

Yeah. How was your trip?

[Podcast Announcer]

It was good.

[Joel Kern]

Yeah.

[Podcast Announcer]

It was good. Yeah. And how are you?

[Joel Kern]

Nervous getting through it. It's a little different. Yeah. Like we were mentioning, it's first time I've actually met anybody from the biological family, so it's different.

[Podcast Announcer]

So this is all different too.

[Becky]

After some setup and light chitchat, they get right into it. James immediately begins to read the letter he received from Diane.

[Podcast Announcer]

It Sundays, I was four and a half months pregnant when I was arrested. Amy and I were locked in a jail cell alone for nearly four months before she was born. She gave me the strength to keep calm during the trial. Every day I'd tell her that she was going to be okay. I'd pat her bottom and rub her back and comb her. I didn't let myself get consumed with worry for her sake. Then when we returned to our jail cell after my first day on the witness stand, there was a court order waiting in our concrete slab bed. The state had seized custody of Amy even before she was born. The trial wasn't even over yet and the state was taking her. I was physically ill but couldn't dwell on it because I didn't want Amy to feel my pain. It was a different story after she was gone. I cried and cried. It felt like I'd lost a friend as much as a child. That's a loss from which I'll never recover. That's what my sister said about you.

[Joel Kern]

Wow. So I didn't realize that she felt that way.

[Podcast Announcer]

There's been pictures painted of my sister as being a callous person, not a good mother. That's the way she felt about all of her kids. That's not the way she felt about the surrogate child. You're not a surrogate child.

[Joel Kern]

I struggle with her connection with me because of the fact that she got pregnant with me on purpose because she knew she could and she wanted to replace Cheryl and she knew that she would get sympathy from the courts.

[Podcast Announcer]

And those are Anrul's words. Those are writer's words. Those aren't true.

[Joel Kern]

Okay. Isn't it? I saw something about it. I've never read Anrule's book. There was one of her recordings or something that I thought. I don't know. Anyways. I never knew she felt that way.

[Becky]

James shifts almost immediately into defensive mode with regards to Diane. There's a bit of tension between James and Becky, and James is eager to push through his agenda for meeting.

[Joel Kern]

So when did she write that?

[Podcast Announcer]

About two weeks ago. I asked her to share something with me because she doesn't want. I said, the world needs to understand what you felt like when you were having the baby. She says she can't really talk about when the baby was taken away because crying, you know, she cried and cried. What else is there to say? She was induced. She didn't have it natural. They told the court before she was convicted that they're going to take the baby away. They told the jurors that already finding her guilty before the jurors even started deliberating.

[Becky]

It is really interesting. It's very interesting.

[Podcast Announcer]

And she did. I don't think the word replace is a good word to say because you can never replace you with another baby. She can't replace Cheryl with another baby. She can't replace Christy with another baby. You're her daughter and you were very much loved. The state did not want you to be raised by her or see the family. So you were given to another family.

[Joel Kern]

So I feel a sort of a disconnect. I reached out to Diane, I think it was in 2006, and her first couple letters were, you know, oh, my gosh, I've always known where you were. I knew you'd write me someday. They were excited and happy. But now, to this day, you know, she denies that I'm her biological Child.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah. There's a lot of letters in between, too, right? Yeah. Crazy letters, we might say. Right.

[Joel Kern]

They're pretty intense. Yeah. And threatening and, you know, saying that there's been somebody watching me my whole life and trying to kill me and scary stuff.

[Podcast Announcer]

Whenever she did that, did you feel like you were watching a movie and that she was threatening you from in the jail, or did you feel like that she was being sincere, she was truly worried for you because, again, she didn't commit this crime. Right. Whoever did this to her is still out there. And if you are her child, in her opinion, then you're in danger.

[Becky]

Things with James start to grow a bit tense.

[Podcast Announcer]

There's not a single person that I know that is backing me and doing this because the media has been very violent, very vile, and the media is one of the reasons why I. I don't want to use the word fearful to meet you, but I wasn't looking forward to meeting you.

[Becky]

They go back and forth about the details surrounding Diane's public behavior at the time of the shooting and her seeming lack of emotion when reenacting the scene. Becky pokes holes in James argument for Diane's innocence, which he repeatedly defends.

[Podcast Announcer]

I can tell you that for many years, I've been very angry at you, mainly because when I tried to talk to you, you didn't want to talk to me. One of the things that you said was the purpose of doing what you're doing is so you can be sure that Diane does not get parole. Right now. I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want to be a part of somebody that's trying to keep my sister in prison, because how she acts is just. I've never been shot. I've never had my child killed in front of me. You know what I mean? And I just. It's just. How are you supposed to act? Well, you're wrong because you don't know. You know what I mean?

[Becky]

At this point, the tension is palpable.

[Podcast Announcer]

Straight out in English language. I could not in any way, shape or form be a part of somebody's life that thought my sister was guilty.

[Joel Kern]

I understand that.

[Podcast Announcer]

And really, my life is now consumed with my sister, which is why I'm sitting here. And what I want, what I believe, is that if you looked at not actions and evidence, that there would be no doubt and she would believe that she's innocent.

[Joel Kern]

I understand that you came here solely to speak of her innocence and not to meet me. I wanted to reach out to you. To give you your voice and to get to know you. So that just really hurts. I talked to your dad for years. I don't want to be just some person. And I understand that you're angry. I would need to. But why are you here?

[Podcast Announcer]

My sister's in prison and she doesn't belong there. And I want you to be her mouthpiece. I want you to go out there and tell the world that she didn't do this.

[Becky]

It becomes clear that James believes Diane when she says that whomever she claims is the actual shooter is still out there. A theory he has also adopted.

[Joel Kern]

You want me to be an advocate for her.

[Podcast Announcer]

That's right.

[Joel Kern]

But that would require me to believe she's innocent.

[Podcast Announcer]

That's right. And why do I. Why would I even say that to you if I didn't believe that? If you stopped and you looked at what happened here, and if you looked at everything that I've got to show you, if you really had an open mind, you weren't thinking about how crazy she was. There is no doubt in my mind that you would be. And then you could use your voice to help get her out. Is she your mother?

[Joel Kern]

She's my biological mother.

[Podcast Announcer]

There you go.

[Joel Kern]

I don't constantly say mean things about her. I defend her even when people, you know, say horrible things. I say, she was in solitary for so long, even a sane person would go crazy. You know, it's those letters that she wrote.

[Podcast Announcer]

I mean, they were crazy. She also believed she was protecting you. Those letters, when she was saying to keep quiet, quit talking, as he's still out there, she was protecting him. That's part of her theory about what happened to her.

[Joel Kern]

Okay.

[Podcast Announcer]

She believes that she's being watched still. She believes that we're all still in danger.

[Joel Kern]

Do you believe that if she was released, she could get help for her mental issues as is? Do you think she would be safe?

[Podcast Announcer]

I know she would be safe. It's really strange talking to her at times because as incoherent about the man watching and things like that, she is so incredibly coherent about. If she doesn't talk about that, she's incredibly coherent, incredibly normal.

[Becky]

There was finally an opening, and Becky decides to ask what she believes is the most important question she has for James.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Joel Kern]

Do you know who my biological father is?

[Podcast Announcer]

Sorry. I do know that he was guy on our postal route is all I know. There's only one person that knows. We were talking earlier, and it's like the father may not even know he's.

[Joel Kern]

A father, and that's what I'm thinking. It's either he's passed away, he doesn't know, or he doesn't want to know.

[Podcast Announcer]

She didn't tell him. She didn't tell him she was pregnant.

[Becky]

James and Becky finally both have their respective agendas for the conversation out in the open. For James, Diane's innocence, and for Becky, her biological father's identity. James agrees to take a DNA test to help her in her quest.

[Joel Kern]

I mean, I think that would be wonderful. It might settle Diane a little bit to know for real. It might help me find my biological father.

[Podcast Announcer]

It might probably not, but it might.

[Joel Kern]

It'll let you know your heritage. So. Hey, that's cool.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah, that's what they say. My heritage. I'm from Denmark. About two or three years ago, my dad probably told you, right? From Denmark. Denmark royalty. I don't feel complete. I don't feel complete talking to you. I want to. I feel like you've judged her because of how she acts. And I just believe that if you need to open your. You're looking for things, and I'm not saying you're looking in the wrong area because nowhere you look is wrong, but maybe you need to look at what was done to her. What was done to her so you couldn't be with her even. They stopped you from being with her. She didn't stop it. They stopped it.

[Becky]

James calms a bit and sort of seems to regret being so outwardly aggressive, but still can't help pushing his agenda.

[Podcast Announcer]

I mean, I understand that you have a lot of emotion. Right. And I'm sorry if I dissed your emotion. I just need you to really think about. You can send it to me in email. This is why I think Diane did this.

[Becky]

Okay.

[Joel Kern]

Okay.

[Becky]

All right. Thank you, guys. I think that's a wrap for today. That was a lot for both of you. No apology.

[Podcast Announcer]

No. I really, really do care. Right.

[Joel Kern]

Thank you.

[Podcast Announcer]

I don't want you to be sad. I don't want anybody to be sad for any reason.

[Joel Kern]

Yeah.

[Podcast Announcer]

And believe me when I said that, I mean that with my heart, that I believe that you're going to be her voice. I don't. I didn't see it, envision it, or any of that. It's just my heart believes that. Yeah, my heart believes.

[Joel Kern]

Well, we can definitely talk more. Follow up on this.

[Becky]

It's hard to say if Becky got what she wanted from the interaction with James. It's the first member of the Frederickson side of the family who's agreed to meet with her and have a real conversation about Diane. So in many ways, it's as close as Becky has ever been to the maternal side of her family line. Despite the tension between them, James agreed to give Becky a key piece of the puzzle to help confirm confirm her genetic identity, his DNA. With this, Becky will hopefully finally be able to confirm once and for all that she's in fact the biological daughter of Diane Downs. On the next episode of Happy Face presents two Face we unpack the details of exactly what happened on that fateful night in May of 1983 when Diane Downs and her three children arrived at that Springfield, Oregon hospital, all with gunshot wounds.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone, let's face it, in therapy, by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits, or another challenge that you need support to work through. It's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most Insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code space80. That's S P A CE 80 to match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code space80.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline.

[Joel Kern]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?

[Jeremy Scott]

The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific and quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

Listen to the trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jeremy Scott]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season one.

[Gilbert King]

Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Jeremy Scott]

I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known.

[Gilbert King]

At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Jeremy Scott]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarchi, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers, known as the Wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s. Her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.