A (2:00)

she's not a True Crime nerd.

B (2:01)

Not a True Crime.

C (2:03)

I was never one to just listen to True Crime podcast in my car as more of a Call Her Daddy kind of episode.

A (2:08)

Got it, girl. Okay.

C (2:10)

However, look at me, I'm listening to True crime as I drive home from work.

A (2:14)

And it's all encompassing, I would think it's fair to say. Matthew, you were probably in the same boat when you came on this show.

B (2:19)

Yes, I was working at Adore Beauty making skincare podcasts.

A (2:23)

So it's a steep learning curve, right?

B (2:25)

Yeah, it is.

A (2:26)

And I just start throwing out names of killers and horrible, talking about horrible crimes. And you just, you will, you will get the same encyclopedia that I have. Don't worry. Really quickly. Right.

B (2:36)

Yeah.

A (2:36)

I've been watching glued to the Rebel Wilson defamation trial lately. Just fascinating to watch that side of things. And there'll be more of that to come on the podcast and also on

B (2:47)

the radio show, which I'm confused about how they're letting cameras in there. My understanding with these court cases is that you and I have been learning of wanting to do any kind of podcast about an active trial. You can't talk about it at all. But then I come into the office the other day and you're just playing a live stream on YouTube of Rebel Wilson taking the stand, being cross examined. Yeah.

A (3:05)

We need to ask one of our new very good friends, Lex Lasry.

B (3:10)

Yeah.

A (3:11)

Former Supreme Court judge Lex Lasry is also doing a lot of work with us at the moment. So keep an ear out for, for his thoughts about lots of things. He's obviously a font of information and if you have questions for him, if there's something you would like to know, please let us know on socials and we'll put it to him. That is a good question. I. It's making me think though, the Lisa Wilkinson defamation trial was also on YouTube.

B (3:35)

Yeah. I don't understand. It's just defamation related, which feels kind of antithetical to what it's about. Right?

D (3:41)

Yes.

B (3:41)

It's supposed to be. Well, maybe not. Maybe it's perfect because it's all about someone's public. Public Persona. Public.

A (3:47)

They're brutal. Defamation trials are brutal. We were talking to. I know a lot of you will remember Tim Marsh, who is the defence lawyer, who was on the show recently, a couple of weeks ago, who some

B (3:57)

people thought was 70 years old, but not the case. He just has a very soft way of speech.

A (4:01)

I know. And how old is he? 55.

C (4:04)

Oh, that's super offensive.

A (4:05)

Yeah.

E (4:06)

Right.

A (4:06)

But. Well, he took it as a compliment. He was like, oh, people saying, you know, they thought I sounded older.

C (4:11)

Okay. Sounded older than. Looked older.

A (4:13)

No, they don't think he looks older then when they saw him because we have video now. Suddenly people were saying to him, oh, God, I thought you were much older, because he sounds so experienced, I guess, or whatever. But he and I were just chatting about these defamation trials that are happening lately and he said, I can't believe celebrities and, you know, well known people like Ben Robert Smith are submitting themselves to these trials because they're so devastating. Every. Every faux pas you've ever made seems to come out in these court cases.

B (4:42)

It really seems like you're, you're going, you're traveling through the fire to prove your innocence about something because someone's taking someone to court for defamation because they feel like their reputation has been diminished. Diminished. So to prove that, you will now go through a court case where everything you've ever done is going to be brought up, where it's like, put on public record.

A (5:05)

Your reputation is about to be graded. Yeah, it's like, all right, I'll tell you what your reputation is, mate.

B (5:11)

Yeah.

A (5:11)

And they'll just go through everything you've ever said and done.

B (5:14)

Who's the guy that you talk about who said that his reputation literally cannot be diminished because it's already.

A (5:21)

That is former Victorian Drug Squad Detective Paul Dale, who's also. What's the word they like to use? Shamed.

B (5:29)

Disgraced.

A (5:30)

Disgraced. Disgraced. Former Victorian Drug Squad Detective Paul Dale is his full title. And yes, he told me once that he's been charged with murder twice, I think, and never convicted, but had lots of other troubles. And he told me once that a judge told him, you can never accuse anyone of defamation, you can never sue anyone for defamation because your reputation is so low.

C (5:56)

Could you imagine that?

A (5:58)

No one can ever lower it, no matter what anyone says about you.

C (6:01)

So we can say whatever we like about Paul Dale?

B (6:04)

Yeah, we can.

A (6:05)

He could. And he's had to develop a sense of humour about it. So, yes, lots of legal stuff that we can ask our lovely friend Lex Lazari. You can tell that I'm pretty up myself about being friends with Lex Lazari and also because I chased Lex for years to get an interview. Once years ago, I did a live show for Australian True Crime and afterwards I was hanging around and chat with people and photos and all that and a young woman came up to me and she got a photo and she said, my uncle is Lex Lasry.

C (6:34)

I said, did you? It's my girl, Goss.

A (6:37)

Oh, my God, he's so lucky. And she just laughed and she goes, yeah, yeah, he's great fun. And she gave me his phone number and I never rang it because I thought, I don't think. I don't know if he'd be cool with that. And I've forgotten to tell him about it, but. So I was chasing him for years through his official, you know.

C (6:54)

And you had his phone number the whole time?

A (6:55)

I had it, but I wasn't game to use it because I didn't know. I thought he'd be a fearsome fella, you know.

C (7:00)

Good on you for respecting privacy.

A (7:02)

Well, I was just scared really, more than anything. But now it's all happening around here, big things happening. 2020, it's the year of ATC.

B (7:11)

It really is. And I wanna say as well, if now that we have this radio show, you'll find in the show notes of this episode a speak pipe for us. That is if you wanna record any questions for us or any of our guests, it'll be played on the radio, please do. So send us any questions, any feedback you have about our episodes.

A (7:29)

That would be really fantastic. Cause one thing I miss about radio is phones, talking to listeners on the phones. But because of the nature of the show, we felt like we can't really talk live about things because again, we might get sued, we might, all of us might accidentally say something about a case we're talking about or whatever. So to keep everyone safe, we thought, we'll do this. We'll do the speak pipe calls, then we can check them with the lawyers to make sure that no one's going to get in trouble. But everyone can participate. I'm excited about some of the interviews we've got coming up because, Ruby, part of your remit is to get us international interviews, interviews about international stories. It's time for Australian True Crime to spread our wings into the international true crime world.

C (8:11)

And there's a lot out there, but we do have some pretty cool people coming on. The one that is pretty fresh on my mind is Ashley Freckleton. So the new Apple TV Twisted Yoga documentary.

A (8:23)

Yeah. If you haven't watched it, I hesitated. I don't even know why. I saw it pop up on Apple TV and I moved past it. And then when you said, oh, we've got the girl from that documentary for an interview, I went and watched it and it's. It's brilliant. I don't know.

C (8:40)

It's awesome. Yeah, yeah. So it just follows her. She joined as part of a young yoga students from around the world that were drawn to this ancient practice in search of inner peace. And they looked at this guy like a God and they followed him across the world and he was like a spiritual Leader Gregorian, do you want to.

A (9:04)

Yes, yes.

C (9:05)

So he was. He was like their God to them. They found out that he was. Faces charges for human trafficking, kidnapping, rape. But he denies all of these. But these girls were like trapped in a room for like five days and were like.

A (9:19)

Well, they were trapped in another country, right, in a house. They took their passports off them, took their phones off them and all that. If you're listening and thinking this sounds a bit like a cult, that's exactly what it is. This is a cult that this guy kind of grows out of. Yoga, young women. And Ashley, our guest, she was. She's from Victoria in Australia, but she was living in like a lot of young Australian people do. Went and did a time in London and just went to a yoga school and that this all grew out of that. Took about 24 hours of negotiation though, to get out.

C (9:52)

They wouldn't just release me because I

A (9:54)

was in a foreign country. I didn't speak the language.

C (9:57)

I'd been blindfolded on my way to

A (10:00)

the house, so I didn't know where I was.

C (10:02)

There were also high locked gates. I don't know if the house was also locked. And they had all of my belongings.

A (10:07)

Why did you choose to leave? Did you. There was a looming meeting, I'm assuming. Did you realize. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to have to go through an initiation with this guy who is in actual fact a sort of, what, in his 60s? Romanian dude in his 60s or something? Like he's not the 70s. 70s. Okay. So he's.

C (10:23)

Yeah.

A (10:24)

Not the kind of man that a beautiful 22 year old girl is normally going to be looking to have sex with. Frankly, it's an amazing story. It's happening right now. It sounds like something out of the 70s, but it's ongoing.

C (10:38)

Yeah, I think it's still going through the French courts, isn't it?

A (10:41)

Through the French courts, yeah. But also his yoga organisation is still alive and well and people are still signing up. So. Yeah, interesting one. I loved chatting with her. Also. The Long island serial killer. This has been a passion of mine for, I mean, God, how long has it been going now? Sixteen years, I think. I think 2010. The first. It started with bodies found along Gilgo beach in Long island and like, I think three bodies found in a day or in a couple of days. And then more and more and police had to say, I think we've got a serial killer here. It's fascinating. Police anywhere in the world seem to not want to admit there's a serial killer at work. I Mean, I remember the same thing happening in Melbourne, talking to Charlie Bazina about the Frankston serial killer and him saying as lead detective, he knew this is a serial killer and he wanted to be able to say that. But the higher ups and.

B (11:35)

Well, I could only imagine it's a political thing, right, because you wouldn't want to create then civil unrest of people thinking that as a true.

A (11:41)

I know, but he was like, yeah, but we sort of course his job is he wants to keep people safe. So he wanted to say there is a danger there appears to be a murderer active in this area. And apply to that what we know about serial killers, we know they follow patterns. We know, you know, all of those things that he's thinking. I do want to tell the community that they're at risk. Cause they are. And you're right, the politicians behind it are saying, no, don't do it well again.

B (12:11)

Cause it's going to make it seem like they're heading a state that is lawless. And you know, and I'm not that familiar with the Long island serial killer. These women that were found, are you saying in a similar spot on a

A (12:25)

beach, they were sex workers? And I would be here all day if you let me because it's such a fascinating story. And essentially a young woman sex worker goes missing on Long island around this, this neighbourhood. And after about seven months of her family agitating the police to go and do a proper search. Because as we know, when you're a young sex worker, I don't know if it's still the case, but historically police can, I don't know, I don't want to say not be interested, but it seems as though the investigation's not as enthusiastic, let's say. So it took seven months for them to actually go down to the area and do a proper search for this young woman. And they didn't find her. They found three other people, three other bodies who also happen to be sex workers. The more they searched, they've ended up with. Well, the guy has since been charged many, many 12 years later.

E (13:19)

Coming out judge tonight with the families of his victims in the courtroom and his ex wife of 27 years and daughter watching. Rex Heuermann leaving no doubt he is the Gilgo beach serial killer who terrorized neighborhoods outside New York City.

A (13:32)

We feel it's in your best interest to plead guilty rather than go to trial. Yes, your honor.

E (13:36)

The suburban dad who worked as an architect on fifth Avenue in Manhattan. I'm an architectural consultant. Admitting he lived a double life, pleading guilty to murdering eight women and burying their bodies on Long Island. Some found dismembered and wrapped in burlap near the beach. Heuerman strangled his victims, who he hired as escorts in a nearly two decade killing spree starting in 1993.

A (13:56)

They actually made an arrest.

C (13:58)

And did they find that girl?

A (14:00)

They found her a year and a half or so later, and they've since decided, I want to use the word decided, that she was not murdered by Rex Heuermann, the man that they have or who has just pled guilty to murdering the other women. So there's a lot of conjecture about that. A lot of people say that's just not possible.

C (14:19)

Well, it just doesn't sound possible.

A (14:21)

It doesn't. But when you look at the evidence, I believe that is true. I believe that she died of misadventure. And it's this incredible coincidence where she, her misadventure brought the police to this place and he would still be killing if she hadn't.

C (14:36)

Well, that gives me goosebumps.

A (14:37)

Yeah, it's an extraordinary story. And he is a real character, if I can say so. His wife is, you know, part of the story. She's a really eccentric lady. They have grown children. So, yes, we'll be playing an interview with Shannon McGarvey, who is the expert, shortly on the show in the next couple of weeks, and she'll unravel it all for us. She has met the family, she's met the wife and the daughter and spoken to them as part of a documentary.

D (15:07)

I just remember that time as being a lot of push and pull between, you know, what did she know? What didn't she know? Was she a victim? Was she part of it? How could you not know? And I think it's really easy for people to speculate when you're not in that situation. And I'm not an apologist by any means for Asa and her family. I just have a heart. And I don't honestly think that she knew what was going on. I do think that if she's guilty of anything, it's kind of being checked out, of being oblivious of not noticing. I mean, but who am I to speculate on a 20 some odd year marriage? I mean, things happen. Marriages are hard. But, yeah, I, you know, he very much so lived a double life. And she was also one to kind of have her head in the sand.

B (16:05)

I think I've sat in the room with you now, I'm gonna say hundreds of times, and lots of the time you've been interviewing either survivors or the Family of a victim. When you're in the middle of a conversation with someone like that, are you, do you still have like your interview hat on or do you find yourself eventually that kind of disappear and you're just having a pretty one on one deep connection with someone?

A (16:29)

Honestly, I have to make an effort to keep the connection going. Cause I am thinking in my mind, have I got everything? Have I got enough about that? Like I am thinking quite analytically about the episode while I'm recording it. So I'm thinking if they mention something that I think needs explanation, I'm thinking to myself, go back, make sure she explains that. And so I have to push myself to stay emotionally connected. But you know, sometimes I get teary. But I realise that's when I need a break. You know, sometimes I go through, I'll have a week of being teary during them and I think, oh, you need a break. It's just, it does get on top of you sometimes.

B (17:09)

Well, yeah, you and I had to have those conversations again when, when, when we first got Ruby on, because we were like, well, we've been doing this for years now. But then remember how strange it is when you first start working in basically full time true crime work that it

A (17:23)

can be also working in an office. Like, I have to remember we're surrounded by people now and our conversations and things that we have on our computers and things like that. I have to remember, oh, to the people sitting outside our office who work in sales at a radio station, you

C (17:39)

could think anything of this.

A (17:41)

They could think anything. It could traumatise them, could trouble them. Like I always use the example of an email I got once from a lady, I just opened the email and there were photographs of her son's autopsy just right there. And it was shocking to me, obviously. But I think, imagine if my kids had been standing behind me or your

C (18:01)

kid jumped on your phone and looked at your email.

A (18:02)

Yeah. And so even here in the office, I think I don't want our computer screens to be visible to the whole open office. You just never know what's gonna pop up.

C (18:11)

Honestly, working in news, I feel like I'm always reading police reports, the real details of stories that are just really confronting. So I feel like I've kind of got that barrier where I can not. Like I still have empathy, of course, but it's like I can.

A (18:32)

Okay, this is, this is work, compartmentalize.

C (18:34)

Yeah.

A (18:35)

What's it like studying journalism these days? Like, are there, do they talk about this? Do they. No, they don't talk about like protecting yourself psychologically from this stuff.

C (18:47)

Nah, I, I honestly, I can't say that. Like I remember ever being in uni, learning how to deal with all. Yeah, protect yourself from this. But in saying that, my sister is a psychologist, so when I did get offered this job, she was like, you really need to think about this. Like this could seriously, I, I'm a cancer, so I'm very emotional. She's like, this could like, you really need to think about this before saying yes. But it's like a no brainer for me. I'm like, I work in news. Like, I thought that would affect me. I'm like, I am good at putting that barrier up right now. We'll see down the line if I can.

A (19:26)

I mean we. Sometimes, sometimes you need.

D (19:28)

Yeah, it's random sometimes.

B (19:30)

Yeah, exactly. But sometimes it'll just be a random episode that I wouldn't have thought would have any kind of effect.

A (19:35)

And coppers talk about that a lot too, don't they? They talk about, you know, it's never the big jobs that break you. And obviously they see much more than we're talking about. But they say, look, you know, it's, it'll be something little, it'll be the final straw. Is often something that, looking back, you think, why that of all things.

C (19:53)

Yeah.

A (19:53)

So it is cumulative. You never know what's gonna affect you and what's not going to. Yeah. Oftentimes it's just the person. Oftentimes I'm just sitting across from someone who I feel so bad for, like they're such a sweet, good person, something terrible has happened to them and I just feel so sorry.

B (20:13)

Well, of course. Because typically I think it's by definition, by the time someone gets to the point where they're in, where they're in a room with you talking about it, it's either happened to them directly or they're like the advocate, they're the advocate in their family who is trying to get information on a cold case or a missing loved one.

A (20:31)

Yeah.

B (20:31)

I think by the time that they've come here, they've obviously lived a life that's, that is, that is just completely overwhelmed by this extremely so awful happened to them. Yeah, exactly.

A (20:42)

Yeah. I mean, I do think about the lady whose daughter was murdered just by a stranger on her way home from work in Albury. So she worked in a pub, she was about in her early 20s and she knocked off from the pub and she was walking, I think she was actually walking to another pub. Like her friends were at this other Pub. So they said, after you knock off, come over and have a drink. So she was walking, like two blocks between the pubs, happened to cross paths with a man with serious mental illness and he murdered her. And he left her in the car park of this office block. And the mum was talking about the next morning when the police came to her door and told her what had happened. And she. All she was thinking was, I just want to go and hold her, hold my daughter, who's still under a tree in this car park.

B (21:27)

Right.

A (21:27)

Oh, that's awful. Because it's a crime scene. And the police explaining to her, you can't touch your daughter because her body is evidence. And still, you know, it's. It's just she such a beautiful, normal lady and this hideous thing happened to her.

C (21:46)

Do you feel like it's harder to hear those stories because you have your own kids?

A (21:51)

This one in particular? At the time, my kids were. We were back and forthing about a school camp. They were about 8 years old.

C (21:57)

You were like, you're not going?

A (21:59)

No, I said, you are going. So they didn't want to go to camp. Right. And I was thinking to myself, what am I supposed to do? What would a good parent do here? Would they make them go, say, no, it's good for you, you've got to go, or would I give in and let them stay home with Mummy? You know, And I didn't know what to do. And chatting with this lady, I was filled with the gratitude that I had my kids, that what can happen in life? And I thought this lady would give anything to be having my problems with her daughter right now. And so we all went. I went on camp as well. I love that. But it was because of meeting her. It was all about. She just. It just adjusted my attitude, adjusted my priorities. Yeah, Next week we're all in Taralgan or somewhere at a school camp.

B (22:48)

I mean, that's what I've noticed with true crime. I know, like, true crime's a really broad, you know, really broad title. I found it's a really good insight into what humanity is like, you know, during a tragedy, during the toughest point in someone's life. Not all of them. Some true crime is like people getting drunk and eating food on YouTube and talking about, you know, a crime. But I found it with this, to be so much more of an insight. Like I was thinking, you know, when people talk about, say, if any tragedy happens in your life, it is not necessarily criminal. Say, if a loved one dies. People talk about how surreal the feeling is when life just has to continue. Like, you still have to. You still have to feed your pets. You still have to go to work. You still have to. Whatever.

A (23:31)

The thing I find is when kids go missing and people say. And then I look out and everyone. Everyone's still going on with their lives. And I'm saying, hey, my kids missing everyone drop everything.

B (23:40)

The same bus still comes. Yeah. Yeah. And then could you imagine just how much. How tenfold that would feel of, like, things happening, of it being a criminal matter? And now you have all of these professionals sitting in your living room and there's all these next steps that you have to be a part of. It's like you have no. You don't get to go away into, like a little pocket where, you know, you get to grieve and process it. You're so. You're a part of this huge thing that's so alien to you, and it

A (24:04)

becomes part of your identity.

B (24:06)

Yeah.

A (24:06)

You know, now you are the lady whose daughter was murdered.

B (24:09)

Yes.

A (24:10)

In that car park. You know? Yeah. It just changes your whole world.

B (24:13)

Yeah.

A (24:14)

Yeah. It is all about people. It is all about meeting people. I'm glad. I mean, it was complete, not accident. I wasn't. I didn't know any of this would happen when I started this podcast. But even just making it an interview podcast, which for a long time I thought, I'm an idiot. Cause that's really a lot of work to get a guest every week and edit it and all that stuff. But in the end, I think that's what's kept me passionate for 10 years is the people.

C (24:37)

Yeah.

A (24:38)

Meeting the people, hearing their stories, just learning so much from things people say sometimes. And I just think, God, that's so profound.

C (24:46)

Yeah. Wow. So did you say you've been doing this 10 years?

A (24:49)

This is the 10th year. Yeah. We started in 2017 or 2016. We started, I think, but we didn't air until 2016. 2017. I can't remember. And you know what else, Ruby? We are coming. We are knocking on the door of our hundred millionth download.

C (25:03)

Wow. Million

A (25:06)

downloads. I think that will happen sometime this year.

B (25:09)

That should happen later this year.

A (25:11)

Yeah.

C (25:11)

Wow. Hopefully fast tracked by this new radio show.

A (25:14)

Oh, that's it. Maybe. Maybe so. Yeah, we'll do something. I'll try and get Lex Lasry involved just because I just love hanging out with him.

B (25:21)

I love him.

A (25:21)

Yep.

B (25:23)

Yeah. Who do you think, over the years has become a real friend of the podcast? I mean, now we've got Lex, but it's got yeah, Charlie Bazino. Gotta be Charlie Bazina, doesn't it? Charlie is ex homicide detective, Victoria and

A (25:35)

I met him in this.

C (25:37)

I was thinking, that guy that's been convicted, charged of two murders that you were like, he just makes humor out of it. What was his name?

A (25:43)

I don't know.

B (25:44)

You thought we're talking about Paul Dale. Disgrace.

A (25:46)

Disgrace.

C (25:47)

Former disgrace. Yeah, that one.

A (25:48)

Former drug squad detective Paul Dale. No, I haven't seen Paul in years. But I do love the circle of people that I've built up that I know now. That's fun. But, yeah, I met Charlie Wazina in this building. Cause we're in the Kiss building right now as we sit and speak in Melbourne. And when I was doing breakfast here on Kiss FM with Matt Tilley, so that must have been 10 years ago now, I somehow conned them in because I just wanted to meet old coffers. I just had seen this guy on the news, whatever. And so somehow I made it make sense for the Breakfast Show. And Charlie walked in and looking every inch. The homicide detective was wearing a suit and, hi, Michelle, how are you? And shook my hand and all of that reception. And since then, he's just become such a beautiful friend, him and his wife. And yeah, a lunch with Charlie is just my favourite thing in the world. And the thing about him is he never taught. Talks to me like I'm anything less than an equal. Like I have him on such a pedestal. But he always. He'll say, and you know, Michelle, you know yourself. And then he'll talk to me and I'll think, oh, it's so cool that he thinks I know what he's talking about. Or I. Yeah, he's our Australian true crime boyfriend. And we've done many live shows together too, which I love. I love being on stage with Charlie. I love watching how other people react to Charlie because he is so charming and knowledgeable. And after gigs, he always stays and there's this long line of people to meet him and get their photos with him. And he never leaves until everyone's got their photo.

B (27:20)

And.

A (27:20)

Yeah, that's incredible.

D (27:22)

That's really cool.

B (27:22)

Yeah. So this does really feel like a big milestone moment for the podcast. So we encourage everyone to join. We have a. We've got the Facebook page and Instagram page for Australian true crime, but we also have a group on Facebook, so I think we'd really like people to go in there and comment. Any of your favorite episodes? Anyone you're still wanting us to interview, especially now that we're doing international cases and also again Monday episodes. They remain the same still. Australian true crime.

A (27:47)

Yeah, it's the same, but more. Yeah, staying the same.

B (27:50)

We've got all the videos now we're in the modern era. It's funny that it took joining a commercial legacy media company of Kiss FM to do that because they've got a

A (28:00)

beautiful studio with cameras and all the kit and, you know, I was trying to do it before, trying to figure out how to do that beforehand. That didn't look crap. That wasn't in my home office with cats climbing over me.

B (28:09)

Yeah. We tried using our phones a few times, I think. Yeah.

A (28:12)

And then all of a sudden we've rolled up here and it's all been laid on. So I feel very lucky, very grateful and I hope you guys like it. Please get involved on those speak pipes. We would love to include your voices in the show as much as possible. That would be great. So you're right, Matthew. It is a milestone. Ruby, welcome aboard. Thank you. You're joining at a good moment, by the way.

C (28:32)

Yeah, I'm very excited.

A (28:35)

Onward and upward and thank you so much. None of this would be happening if we didn't have a great, loyal audience that turns up every week and not only listens, but you're so engaged. And if ever we ask for help for a guest or when we do travel around the country to do gigs, you always turn up. So thank you so much. If you need support after listening to this PODC, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Org AU. Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 139276 or 13 yarn.org AU.

B (29:29)

The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.