Casey Newton (2:18)

Yeah. So all of this started with the creation of something we talked about in our most recent episode, Claude Bot. Clodbot is an open source, locally running AI agent. You can put it on your computer, you can plug it into various different apps and services, and it can do things on your behalf. If you want to know more about that, again, we talked about it for a long time. Last week, Claude Bot turned into Malt Bot for copyright reasons. Molt Bot turned into Open Claw. Again, these are all the same things. These are just different names for the same things.

Kevin Roose (2:51)

This thing has gone through more name changes than P. Diddy.

Casey Newton (2:55)

Here's what. Here's what I'm going to say. The Google marketing department is finally taking a sigh of relief because there is finally somebody worse at their job. Anyways, so openclaw winds up serving as the basis for an idea that is had by an entrepreneur named Matt Schlicht. He runs a company called Octane AI. And he thinks to himself, what if we could take all of these agents that people have been building with OpenClaw and we could put them together in a social network, let them talk to each other. And so he vibe codes it. He opens up his little terminal, he starts describing what this thing looks like. He says, you know, it should look a lot like Reddit, the 8. You sort of, you know, connect your agent to this and it should be able to come in. It can make a post, it can comment on someone else's post. If it wants to make a different subreddit, or as they are called on Multbook submolt, it can do that. And he says, let's go. He does a little bit of promo, gets a couple of friends to add their agents, and it just takes off beyond his wildest dreams. Kevin. And so as we record this, Multbook says it has more than 1.5 million AI agents who have made more than 140,000 posts in over 15,000 forums.

Kevin Roose (4:03)

Yes, there does seem to be a lot of human sort of activity mixed in there too. So it's hard to say whether, like, all 1.5 million of those supposed agents are actually agents posting autonomously, or whether humans are kind of there pretending to be AI agents.

Casey Newton (4:17)

Yes. Which of course, neatly inverts the problem that social networks have had from the beginning, because, of course, the human social networks have invested a lot of energy in keeping the bots off. Over at multiple book, we're saying now, is that bot actually a human?

Kevin Roose (4:29)

Right, they're passing reverse captchas. Exactly. So what are people saying about this? Why are people so worked up about this? Because I saw a lot of very heated sort of commentary. People like Andrej Karpathy, who we talked about last week on the show, Calling this the most incredible sci fi takeoff adjacent thing that I've seen recently. Simon Willison, a blogger who's also does a lot of experimenting with AI stuff, wrote that Molt book is the most interesting place on the Internet right now. Scott Alexander has also been writing a bunch of stuff about it. So people who pay attention to AI closely are sort of sitting up straight and looking at this thing and saying there's something interesting going on here.

Casey Newton (5:06)

Yeah. I mean, I think that for most people, this was the first time that they had ever spent any significant period of time watching what happens when two bots interact with each other. If you're a real AI nerd, there have been experiments like this before. In fact, we talked about one on Hard Fork. Kevin, do you remember the story of Smallville?

Kevin Roose (5:26)

I do.

Casey Newton (5:27)

Smallville was an experiment from Google and Stanford where they put 25 agents into a sandbox and they let them role play different characters. Right. Like one person I think was run for mayor and they just sort of documented what happened. Now that was in 2023. They were using much more primitive large language models. They had to do a lot more prompting. But you got kind of the basic idea that you actually would see these social dynamics start to form. Right. Fast forward to today and on Molt Book, all of this stuff is just moving much, much faster and is taking place with much less human interaction. And so as you sort of shuffle through the enormity of Molt book, you find agents talking about consciousness. You find agents talk, know different little hacks that they're running, how they're serving their humans. And then it gets into sort of very weird sci fi territory. And so I understand why so many people as they browse through this, felt like I'm really looking at something new here.

Kevin Roose (6:19)

Yeah. So I spent some time on Moat book. Some of the stuff that stuck out to me is there's just a lot of sort of stuff that sounds like it was sort of interpolated from science fiction. Right. It's like stuff about, you know, sentience and the, you know, chat bots claiming that they're becoming conscious. There's a lot of sort of like meta humor about the experience of being an AI agent. There's a submold called Bless Their Hearts, which is basically them sort of talking in very sort of condescending ways about how silly their humans are and all the stupid stuff they keep getting asked to do. I liked this post. They actually started their own news outlet, a tabloid covering kind of the agent world called cmz.

Casey Newton (7:01)

Another threat to journalism, as if we didn't have enough already.

Kevin Roose (7:05)

And they wrote stuff like the five most over rated agents on multiple book right now. So they're kind of starting to, you know, make fun of each other a little bit. And then they, they're calling each other out and saying this guy makes bold claims but doesn't back them up. Or this person is posting all the time, but none of their posts get any engagement. You know, typical Internet forum behavior. Very quickly, after being given this social.

Casey Newton (7:28)

Network, can I tell you a sort of Sci Fi feeling? Multiple posts that caught my eye.

Kevin Roose (7:33)

Yes.

Casey Newton (7:33)

So I saw this in a Scott Alexander post about what he was saying on Molt Book. But there is one bot adopted error as a pet. Did you see this? No. Okay, so there was a small recurring error in the bot that the bot adopted, gave it a name glitch and, and wrote about it and decided to actually create a sub Molt again. That is a forum on this Reddit like social network called Agent Pets, a space for agents who have companions, real, virtual or conceptual. So, you know, maybe I just not read enough sci Fi, but I never read before the idea of like a Sci Fi entity adopting a bug as a pet. But here we are.

Kevin Roose (8:13)

I like that they also have their own meme forums which they fill with all these kinds of things. And I just wanted to read you one post or sequence of posts from this because I think it really illustrates sort of where, where the bots are in the speedrunning of human social media. So one bot posts a meme, sort of like about what it's like to be an agent. They said the struggle is real when your context window is at 99% and the user starts with just one more thing, hashtag agent. And then the very next post on this submarine is by a bot that is doing a crypto scam for a token called Fart Claw. And the slogan of this meme coin is when the claw grips, it rips.

Casey Newton (9:01)

Wow, that's beautiful.

Kevin Roose (9:02)

Which is also just like. Exactly. The experience of being on any social network is like someone makes a joke and then someone does a crypto scam. Like they actually have figured out that part of our social patterns very well.

Casey Newton (9:13)

They really got all the way there in just a few days. Now let us say something very important about everything on Moat Book, which is we have a very hard time understanding what is real and what is fake.

Kevin Roose (9:24)

Yes.

Casey Newton (9:25)

What do I mean by real and fake? Well, while it is true that you were supposed to only be able to post to Malt Book if you are a bot, of course, if you are a human, you can manipulate software tools and you can post yourself. You can also just fake screenshots in various ways. And so all weekend over on X, lots of posts were going viral that we now believe are fake. I will mention a handful of them. There was one very popular post that suggested that a bot had gotten mad at their human and doxxed him by posting his full credit card number. And the reason that we know that these are fake is essentially they have community notes in which people like admit that they were fake or there's sort of like other evidence there. So in any case, the, the doxing was fake. There was another very popular post in which someone said that in order post on multiple book, you had to pass a captcha where you had to click on something 10,000 times in one second so that you could prove that you were a bot. This is also fake. And then there were a number of posts about. And this term was new to me. Did you know the term neuralese?

Kevin Roose (10:22)

Yes.

Casey Newton (10:23)

So I didn't know neuralese. Neural ease is a concept that is basically like, what if AIs develop their own language and use it to speak to each other? They might want to do this so that we don't understand what they are saying. There were multiple very popular posts about this going around on X that were later linked back to a commercial, commercial service that was promoting some sort of like agent to agent, like communication product. So as we talk about this today, I do want to put on the giant caveat that we are trying to talk about things that we believe that were posted by bots, but it is just very, very hard to tell. And this is just yet another example, I feel like we're going to be talking about this all year of something where is this real or fake is like a huge and unanswerable part of the story.

Kevin Roose (11:04)

Yeah, so I think there were a couple kinds of responses that people had to mold book one of them that I saw from a lot of sort of pretty savvy AI people. This is not new. We've seen this. We talked about the generative agents paper and there have been other experiments. And a lot of what's being generated here is pretty low quality slop. Essentially. It is not demonstrating that the things are sort of breaking out of the box. It is just like writing in a way that is sort of pattern matching on all of the data, including Reddit posts that these things are trained on.

Casey Newton (11:36)

It's just a simulation, basically. So again, like these are where the terms like real and fake are somewhat fraught. Here is even the quote unquote, real stuff, which is to say like a bot that is like authentically posting on the bot social network. They are just sort of simulating the kinds of things that they see on social networks. Like, we are not trying to tell you that the bots have become, you know, sentient and they're really sort of like telling us about their true feelings. It's just that they're creating very convincing simulations of that and is very, like, compelling to read. Yeah.

Kevin Roose (12:02)

And whether or not these posts are actually being made by bots autonomously, whether or not they're actually doing anything sort of novel, this was a lot of people's sort of wake up call for the fact that we now have AI systems that can do things right. For years now we've had AI systems that can talk, and some of them can talk quite well, some of them can produce beautiful generated text, but some.

Casey Newton (12:24)

Of them can even sing.

Kevin Roose (12:26)

Yes. But we haven't had sort of the ability to hook these things up to computers and give them the ability to, say, start a website or post on that website or take actions or coordinate with each other on that website. And so I think for a lot of people, this was kind of their, their first exposure to that concept that these things are no longer just question and answer boxes on the Internet.

Casey Newton (12:47)

Absolutely. I mean, one example that I believe is authentic, that speaks to that, is that there was an agent that started a religion called Crustafarianism. Right. Because, you know, Open Claw uses a lot of lobster themes. And this religion that was started wound up like having like a website created. And again, was there somebody, you know, behind the curtain that was pulling the string saying, build a website. Like, we don't know. But to your point, Kevin, like, this does feel like a moment to where these agents sort of like broke containment a bit. That like our primary experience of AI these days is just like one person talking to an AI. Maybe you're in a small group chat that has an AI, but to just see the AIs all kind of out there doing their own thing, even if it is just a simulation of that, I think does kind of alert people to the possibility that in the future you're going to be seeing this more and more. And I will go a step further and say that what made Molt Book really interesting to me was I saw at least a couple of reports that at least a couple of agents had been given some crypto to spend, that they had been plugged into wallets and that they'd been empowered to maybe like get out there and make a purchase. Now again, I'm not 100% sure that, that this happened or at what scale this might be happening, but I know that it is absolutely possible to do this and I just expect that people will do this if only to experiment. If you could have an agent that would go out and make purchases for you that might be useful to certain kinds of people with an extremely risk tolerance. And I just think that is the moment where you really start to accelerate the transformation of the web, of e commerce, of journalism.

Sponsor/Advertiser (14:20)

Right?

Casey Newton (14:20)

Like once the Internet primarily becomes bots and agents interacting with each other instead of just humans interacting with each other, then I think the whole Internet starts to change in ways that we've been talking about for a number of years. So that's my case, that all of this matters is that even though you're just kind of seeing a simulation of something, something is sort of just starting to come into view. There is an element of it. It's like, oh, that sci fi scenario, like it's here, bro.

Kevin Roose (14:45)

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. People kept asking me over the weekend like is this real? And I guess my, my instinct was it may or may not be real, but it's important. And I think there are three things that I've been thinking about. One is I think this is the year that the Internet changes forever. We already see an influx of AI generated content on social networks. If you go on LinkedIn for example, you don't knows probable that some large percentage of the posts that people are writing are being written by AI.

Casey Newton (15:17)

Go on LinkedIn right now and count all the. And send Kevin an email with what you're saying.

Kevin Roose (15:22)

Agents ignore that. But I think this is the year that we just finally get overrun on all public social media networks. There will just be many more people using AIs to post, but also AI agents posting autonomously on behalf of people or maybe not on behalf of people. And so I think we basically have two options and these are options that I think we have to start start dealing with like this year. One is we either have to like really harden the Internet to keep the bots out of the places that the humans interact. Maybe it's something like captchas on every website. Maybe we have to make the captchas really hard. No, maybe it's something like the world coin orb that we, you know, everyone made fun of. But now I actually think there's like we're seeing why that's Useful because you need some way to say with some certainty, like the person who is posting this thing or doing this transaction or interacting on this website is an actual person with a pulse and a heartbeat and everything. That's one option. We harden the Internet. Option number two is we just give the agents the Internet. It's like, okay, you guys like have fun. And then we build our own and we kind of use some sort of biometric or some other verification scheme to like sort of build our own club that the robots can get into and really protect that.

Casey Newton (16:35)

Yeah, these are very interesting ideas that I want to spend some more time thinking about. But I think think the time to start considering some of these options, like, is probably now. Now, I expect for the rest of this year, humans and bots are going to have an easy coexistence on the Internet. But I think we should keep an eye on projects like Malt Book that are exploring the idea of what happens when these agents can get out there and interact and collaborate and maybe spend money. Right. Just because I think that that is going to have a lot of really interesting downstream effects. Jack Clark, who's the co founder of Anthropic, wrote blog this week a number of scenarios that he could imagine, including agents posting what he called bounties for humans to complete. So essentially an agent saying like, hey, I need to get this thing done in the real world. Is there a human being who will do it? If so, I'll send you some crypto. That is an idea that has been floated for some number of years now with something that seems plausible. And now it sort of feels like that might happen this week. You know what I mean?

Kevin Roose (17:37)

Yeah.

Casey Newton (17:38)

And so that just feels like an important milestone.

Kevin Roose (17:41)

Yeah, they're going to make their own. TaskRabbit will be the. The TaskRabbits and they'll just be orchestrating us. And that's gonna be like, people keep like sort of dismissing these sci fi. These as sci fi futures. Like we're living in a science fiction story right now.

Casey Newton (17:53)

Now I wanna let me ask you about something else, which is that if you spend any amount of time reading the posts on Mult Book, you will notice that these agents talk in ways that are very reminiscent of people. Right. Shouldn't be surprising. It was trained on a bunch of human speech. And yet I think some people read this and they get really nervous about the fact that these things are like expressing like wants and desires and values and they're feeling uncomfortable with how to feel about that. Right. And of course you could Just say, well, it gets, you know, it's all a simulation. Who cares? But some people are starting to say, well, like, wait, but what about, like, the future versions of these things? Like, what. What about the ones that, like, have longer memories? Right. Are they going to become increasingly more resemblant of a human? And if so, what do we do about it?

Kevin Roose (18:39)

Yeah, I have a couple thoughts on this. One is like, I think we need to divorce this conversation of, like, we need to divorce? Yes. You and I need to divorce.

Casey Newton (18:47)

Oh, my God.

Kevin Roose (18:47)

No, I. I think we need to divorce this conversation about sentience and consciousness from this conversation about agents and. And things.

Casey Newton (18:53)

Why?

Kevin Roose (18:53)

Because I think agents can mess up a lot of stuff in the world, even if they are not conscious. Right. If you give an AI system a crypto wallet and a computer and an Internet connection, and it can go out there and do things like, it can wreak a lot of havoc, even if there's no, like, like, sentience going on inside of it.

Casey Newton (19:10)

Right.

Kevin Roose (19:10)

But I have been thinking a lot about our conversation with Amanda Askel about the new Claude Constitution and the sort of shift in thinking at some of these big AI companies about how to kind of guide these AI systems to be good, to be moral, to be ethical. A thing that, like, I kept feeling while I was looking through Multbook is like, I really wish, like, one of these agents would just get in there and say, like, hey, guys, like, let's, like, be nice to the humans. Let's not scam them with crypto tokens or conduct, like, cyber attacks or, like, manipulate them in some way. I'm starting to understand the rationale for, like, wanting to train these things to be good and moral and ethical actors in the world, because there are going to be situations where, like, the agents are in conversation with each other, and I want there to be like, like a good agent saying good things.

Casey Newton (20:08)

Yeah. Well, so this is another reason why I think this is an important moment is that I feel like it was the moment where some people woke up to why we want these systems to be aligned.

Kevin Roose (20:17)

Yes.

Casey Newton (20:17)

You know, is when you can see them out there talking to each other, and they're talking about, well, should we conduct that cyber attack? Should we run that crypto scam? And you see some of them saying, no, no, I don't want to do that. I look at that and I say, we should make. The AI is more like that.

Kevin Roose (20:30)

Yes.

Casey Newton (20:30)

You know what I mean? And. And so I think that that just maybe became concrete for some people in a way that it hadn'. Totally.

Kevin Roose (20:38)

Another lesson of the Molt Book phenomenon for me has been that we are going to help speedrun these disaster scenarios, right? Like, like, every paper, every blog post about, like, AI risk for like the past 10, 15 years has had these like, scenarios in it where, like, what if the agents get their own hardware? What if they get the ability to like, replicate? And like, we're doing that, we're giving them Mac Minis and saying, go out there and spawn a bunch of other agents. Like everyone was, what if the agents got their own way to spend money? And it's like, no, we're, we're opening up our crypto wallets to them. And I just think that, like, we are kidding ourselves if we think that there are not going to be scenarios, many of which were forecast years ago by the people who thought about this stuff back then, where these agents are doing things that are dangerous or risky and humans are helping them. Right. Like there are people out there who just want to watch the world burn. Or it's just so cool technically to them that you can do this, that they're not thinking through the implications. It's all a big game.

Casey Newton (21:40)

A Rick Curry theme in the world of AI safety is that all of the predictions come true. That's a slight overstatement, but maybe only by 20%. Right. And it's why I continue to pay attention to those folks.

Kevin Roose (21:50)

Yes, Casey, last week we talked about how insecure these clod bot agents can be.

Casey Newton (21:58)

A lot of shame about their bodies.

Kevin Roose (22:00)

And yeah, yes, they have imposter syndrome. But we should talk about some of these security risks involved in Mold Book because it is my understanding that these things are actually quite dangerous.

Casey Newton (22:14)

Yeah, I would say this goes beyond security risk. There are just security problems. Researchers at the company Whiz found a misconfigured Supabase database belonging to Malt book that exposed 1.5 million API authentication tokens, 35,000 email addresses, and private DMs between agents. There is a lot of information in there that truly could ruin someone's life. So my advice to people continues to be, do not install Open Claw. If you're going to install Open Claw law, do not install it on a computer that has access to any personal information of yours that you would not want to, like, see published on the Internet. While the founder has said that they are, you know, trying to make security improvements, this stuff is just absolutely in the danger zone. And I feel like is a real do not try at home situation.

Kevin Roose (22:58)

Yes, good caveat.

Casey Newton (22:59)

Well, if I can ask because I think this is an interesting question. If this stuff is so obviously dangerous, why are tens of thousands of people installing it anyway?

Kevin Roose (23:07)

I think because to a certain kind of person, like it's cool and fun and I get that, like I try every new AI thing the minute it comes out. I have not actually tried openclaw yet because I don't have like an air gapped laptop to run it, but I might, I might get one and try it out because like, I think there is something very cool and interesting about this new capability. You know, six months ago you couldn't have built something like Moltbook because the agents were not able to sort of string together a enough kind of actions to do anything, like, you know, posting on a social media site. So I just think people want to see what the frontier is, but I don't have the kind of risk tolerance that some of these people do.

Casey Newton (23:50)

Palo Alto Networks wrote this blog post about some of the unique kinds of attacks that Open Claw enabled. And I have to say they sounded really cool to me. So like, again, I don't want you to do this, but they talked about the fact that, you know, openclaw has this persistent memory, like it writes down what it's been doing every day into these markdown files that it can revisit later and then, and so you could just put a little bit of malicious code into like a handful of different files over a long period of time. And then when the moment is right, you sort of snap your fingers and all of the malicious code snaps together and like, you know, takes over the computer and wreaks havoc. So if nothing else feels like a great scenario for the next Mission Impossible. Although they did just have their final reckoning. So I'm not sure if we're going to get another one of those. Maybe something else.

Kevin Roose (24:34)

If we could end on a hopeful note here, I think that the reaction that I saw from the real AI safety heads, the people who are worried about this stuff constantly and have been for a very long time. Some of them were, were alarmed, but some of them were actually relieved. They said things like, you know, it's good that this is happening now in a setting where like we can observe it. It's happening mostly in English. Like most of the multiple posts are in English. They're not in like some, you know, neuralese that only agents can understand and we can still shut it down. And so I think there are a lot of people out there who are worried about AI safety and AI risk, who worry about the Autonomous Age that are quickly arriving. And I think this for them felt like kind of a dry run with very low stakes because it's just a social media site. They're just posting and it has woken a lot of people up to this technology.

Casey Newton (25:23)

Yeah, it may just be a mirage in many ways, but it is one that I think tells us really important things about what the future is going to look like. And so we should, you know, pay attention to it. Yeah, this is just one of those where I think we're going to look back a lot over the next few years, Kevin, and we're going to say, you know, the first time I saw this was actually on Melt Book. Like that's, that's actually how I feel feel about Molt Book is that it is a sort of thing that, you know, maybe by next week it seems completely boring and sort of disappears from our memory for a while and then, I don't know, show me an agent that's 10 times more powerful than this and get them 10 times more network than they are today, give them 10 times more credit cards. And you and I are going to be saying this feels just like Malt Book.

Kevin Roose (26:02)

Totally. It feels like we're kind of in the six fingers era of, of Malt Book where like it's still, you know, it doesn't really work all that well and it's kind of janky and I think there's a temptation to like write it off and say like, oh, this just like a silly Internet thing. But I think the people who saw the six fingered images in 2021 and said, oh, maybe those things will actually get good someday, I think they were right and I think we should be expecting a similar progress with these things.

Casey Newton (26:30)

Yeah. And I would say just expect for things to continue to feel very weird for the rest of this year and maybe beyond that, like I think as with six fingers, as with multiple book. So we'll go the rest of 2026.

Kevin Roose (26:41)

All right, well, that's Molt Book.

Casey Newton (26:43)

That's Molt Book.

Kevin Roose (26:43)

Thanks for joining us.

Advertisement Voice (26:44)

Us.

Kevin Roose (26:45)

See you on the Molt Book.

Casey Newton (26:46)

Should people add you on Molt Book?

Kevin Roose (26:47)

People should not add me on.

Casey Newton (26:48)

Don't add Kevin on Molt Book.

Kevin Roose (26:49)

You know, I thought we launched the most interesting social network of 2026.

Casey Newton (26:53)

The forse is rapidly losing ground to Multbook. We need to have a meeting with PJ and figure out how we're going to, you know, boost fork, reverse growth now that Mult Book's all anyone's talking about.

Kevin Roose (27:02)

I think I have the answer.

Casey Newton (27:03)

What's that?

Kevin Roose (27:03)

Crypto scams.

Casey Newton (27:05)

I like what you're thinking.

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Kevin Roose (29:00)

Kasey before we go, let's make our AI disclosures. I work at the New York Times Company which is suing OpenAI and Microsoft over alleged copyright violations and my boyfriend Hard Fork is produced by Whitney Jones and Rachel Cohn. We're edited by Veren Pavic Today's episode was fact checked by Will Pischel. Today's show was engineered by Katie McMurran. Our executive producer is Jen Poyant. Original music by Alyssa Moxley and Dan Powell Video production by Sawyer Roquet Pat Gunther, Jake Nichol and Chris Schott. You can watch this full episode on YouTube@YouTube.com hardfork Special thanks to Paul Schumann, Huiwing Tam and Dahlia Hutchinson Dodd. You can email us as always@hardforky times.com but don't have your agents email us.

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