Hard Fork: "How Wikipedia Is Responding to the Culture Wars"

Date: November 25, 2025
Host: Lulu Garcia-Navarro
Guest: Jimmy Wales (Co-founder of Wikipedia)

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In this episode of "The Interview" from Hard Fork, NYT's Lulu Garcia-Navarro has a wide-ranging conversation with Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales. They explore how Wikipedia navigates today’s polarized information landscape, defends its reputation for neutrality amid political attacks, and grapples with challenges from AI, government pressure, and ideological adversaries. Wales discusses his new book, "The Seven Rules of Trust," and reflects on Wikipedia’s ethos, vulnerabilities, and future.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The State of Trust and Wikipedia’s Role

• The Trust Deficit: Jimmy Wales distinguishes between trust in day-to-day life (which he feels remains high) and trust in politics, journalism, and business, where he sees a crisis. He believes this crisis is fixable and that Wikipedia’s transparency helps it score high on trust.

  • "In day to day life people still do trust each other... the crisis we see in politics, trust in politicians, trust in journalism... is something that we can fix." — Jimmy Wales [07:08]

• Transparency and Admitting Uncertainty: Wales points out that Wikipedia openly flags articles with disputed neutrality or missing citations, which he sees as building trust.

  • "People like that, not many places these days will tell you, hey, we're not so sure here." — Jimmy Wales [08:04]

Defining Facts & Handling Disputes

• Wikipedia’s Approach to Facts:

  • Quality sources (peer-reviewed, reputable publications) are valued, and old-fashioned editorial caution is prized.
  • Political leanings of sources are considered, but facts are separated from opinions.
  • Encyclopedia-style writing emphasizes reporting on disputes rather than adopting positions.
  • "We look for quality magazines, newspapers... we don't typically treat a random tweet as a fact." — Jimmy Wales [08:51]

• How Disputes Are Resolved:

  • Editors are encouraged to report on the nature of disputes rather than weigh in, using talk pages for discussion.
  • Ideological diversity among editors can, counterintuitively, improve article quality (referencing the "Wisdom of Polarized Crowds" study).
  • Most pages are open for instant editing; protected pages are the exception, usually during controversy or mass vandalism.
  • "Most people are basically nice, most people are trustworthy. People don't just come by and vandalize Wikipedia." — Jimmy Wales [13:33]

Challenges: External Pressure, Doxxing, Political Attacks

• Governmental and Ideological Threats:

  • Rising authoritarianism worldwide threatens editor safety and pressures Wikipedia for censorship (e.g., Russia, India).
  • Misunderstandings of Wikipedia's decentralized structure have led politicians to overestimate the Wikimedia Foundation's control.
  • Reliance on volunteers exposes editors to risks like doxxing. Wales expresses grave concern, especially in hostile regimes.
  • "The Community has real intellectual independence... how they [volunteers] remain safe is critically important." — Jimmy Wales [15:35]

• U.S. Political Attacks:

  • Cites attempts by U.S. Republicans (Comer & Mace) to interrogate Wikipedia’s "bias," and threats from organizations like the Heritage Foundation to doxx editors.
  • Wales says these efforts reflect deep misunderstandings of Wikipedia, calling some of the demands "frankly absurd."
  • "The idea that something being biased is a proper and fit subject for a congressional investigation is frankly absurd." — Jimmy Wales [17:33]

• On Right-Wing Hostility and "Wokipedia" Claims:

  • Wales discusses attacks from Elon Musk (and Grokopedia), noting Musk’s criticisms are often performative.
  • He worries such rhetoric might discourage thoughtful conservatives from editing, while attracting zealots of all stripes.
  • "To the extent that he [Musk] has convinced people... that Wikipedia has been taken over by WOKE activists, then... kind and thoughtful conservatives... are going to go away." — Jimmy Wales [22:54]

Handling Controversy and Editorial Integrity

• Charlie Kirk, Descriptions, and Neutrality:

  • Wales addresses complaints over the wording of controversial entries, using Kirk’s article as an example.
  • Emphasizes the article’s evolution, process-driven corrections, and the value of documenting how people are characterized, not adopting the characterizations as Wikipedia’s own assertions.
  • "It’s a process, it’s a discourse, it’s a dialogue." — Jimmy Wales [21:54]

• Communication with Elon Musk:

  • Wales confirms occasional private texts with Musk, noting Musk is "much more respectful and quiet in private."
  • Downplays the threat Musk poses to Wikipedia, emphasizing resilience and trust in the community’s long-term value.
  • "I don't think he has the power he thinks he has... As long as we stay Wikipedia, people will still love us." — Jimmy Wales [26:32]

AI’s Threat and Opportunity

• AI-Generated Content:

  • Wales acknowledges AI can produce massive amounts of low-quality content, straining the internet and Wikipedia's infrastructure.
  • He sees potential for AI to help with fact-checking or suggesting improvements but insists it can't replace human editors.
  • Cautions against trusting AI output, especially due to "hallucinations" (fabrication of facts).
  • "No AI today is competent to write a Wikipedia entry... but I’m interested in how [AI] can support our community." — Jimmy Wales [27:41]

• On Low-Quality Content Flooding the Web:

  • AI-driven "garbage" is diminishing the relative prominence of human-generated, high-quality information online.
  • Wales is concerned for journalism and local media, seeing this as a parallel threat to public understanding and Wikipedia’s sourcing ecosystem.
  • "It is very cheap to generate very plausible text. That, yeah, that doesn’t seem good to me." — Jimmy Wales [29:49]

The Role of Nonprofit Structure

• Wikipedia’s Business Model:
  • Wales contends that remaining a nonprofit ensures intellectual independence and insulates Wikipedia from profit-seeking pressures or potential buyouts.
  • He affirms the project is “not for sale” and describes community-centric governance as vital for its mission.
  • “I do think that's important for that independence... we don't think in those terms. We're not even interested in that.” — Jimmy Wales [41:25]

Criticism from Within

• Larry Sanger’s (Co-founder) Critique:
  • Sanger alleges liberal bias and calls for reforms like abolishing source blacklists. Wales stands by the priority on reputable, mainstream sources and encourages openness to legitimate criticism but rejects equating all sources.
  • "The idea that... it's somehow wrong that Wikipedia tries to prioritize the mainstream media... is not something I can in any way apologize for." — Jimmy Wales [43:59]

Enduring Optimism, With Caveats

• On Creating Wikipedia Today:

  • Wales insists the project could still exist if launched now, calling Wikipedia’s founding “timeless,” but admits the Internet context is less hospitable due to polarization.
  • Reflects on early toxic online cultures (e.g., Usenet), suggesting online division isn’t new, but is now more pervasive.
  • "I think it could [be started now]... the lessons are pretty timeless..." — Jimmy Wales [38:46]

• The Future of Fact and Trust:

  • Wales ultimately expresses hope Wikipedia will endure, but acknowledges anxiety about the direction of public discourse and attacks on facts.
  • "We're going to be here in 100 years... by maintaining our values, maintaining our trustworthiness, being serious about trying to make things better." — Jimmy Wales [45:38]
  • Lulu closes by expressing her own doubts about the future, to which Wales admits, “I think we’re gonna be all right, but yeah, it’s a rough time.” [46:49]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Transparency:
  • "People like that—not many places these days will tell you, hey, we're not so sure here." — Jimmy Wales [08:04]
• Wikipedia’s Editorial Style:
  • "They don't want to come and get one side of the story. They want to... understand both sides." — Jimmy Wales [10:17]
• On Attacks & Doxxing:
  • "It's embarrassing for the Heritage Foundation... if that's what they think is the right way forward, they're just badly mistaken." — Jimmy Wales [18:22]
• On Elon Musk’s Attacks:
  • "To the extent that he has convinced people... that Wikipedia has been taken over by WOKE activists... kind and thoughtful conservatives... are going to go away." — Jimmy Wales [22:54]
• On AI:
  • "No AI today is competent to write a Wikipedia entry... I'm very interested in how can we use this technology to support our community." — Jimmy Wales [27:41]
• On Not For Sale:
  • "I just wrote, not for sale. That was very popular, but it isn't for sale." — Jimmy Wales [41:25]
• On Enduring Principles:
  • "The only way I think we can last that long is not by pandering to this sort of raging mob of the moment, but by maintaining our values." — Jimmy Wales [45:38]
• On Doubting the Future:
  • Lulu: "That didn’t cheer me up, I gotta tell you right there."
    Jimmy: "Pretty low, pretty low. I think we're gonna be all right, but... it's a rough time." [46:41-46:49]
• Wikipedia Miscellany:
  • Jimmy reveals his last Wikipedia search was obscure: "Admiral Sir Hugo Pearson, who died in 1912, used to own my house in the countryside." [47:07]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro and Book Setup: [05:00–07:08]
• Defining Facts and Neutrality: [08:04–10:17]
• Building Consensus and Handling Disputes: [10:40–13:33]
• Dealing with Political/State Pressure: [14:52–17:33]
• U.S. Right-wing Criticism and Doxxing Threats: [17:33–18:22]
• Controversy and Process (Kirk/Musk Examples): [20:04–25:47]
• AI’s Impact and Wikipedia’s Strategy: [27:41–32:13]
• Profit, Nonprofit, and Independence: [41:25–43:19]
• Sanger’s Critique & Wikipedia’s Self-Correction: [43:19–45:38]
• Reflections on the Future, Enduring Values: [45:38–48:18]
• Humorous Personal Moment (Wikipedia Search): [47:07]

Overall Tone & Final Thoughts

This episode is candid, substantial, and lightly humorous—reflecting both Wales’s geekiness and his gravitas as Wikipedia’s founding figure. The conversation wrestles honestly with today’s challenges—political attacks, AI disruption, and the struggle for trust—while expressing deep faith in the power of community, dialogue, and transparency as enduring tools for building consensus and defending fact.

For those who care about the future of shared knowledge online, this episode is both reassuring and sobering—a masterclass in how Wikipedia stays the course amid cultural storms.