The Wirecutter Show: Kitchen Gear That Lasts a Lifetime (or Extremely Close)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Hard Fork featuring the Wirecutter Show Episode “Kitchen Gear That Lasts a Lifetime (or Extremely Close)”

Podcast Information:

• Title: Hard Fork
• Host/Author: The New York Times
• Episode Featured: The Wirecutter Show: Kitchen Gear That Lasts a Lifetime (or Extremely Close)
• Release Date: December 27, 2024

Introduction: In this special episode of Hard Fork, The New York Times' tech-focused podcast temporarily pauses its regular programming to spotlight a compelling episode from another acclaimed NYT podcast, The Wirecutter Show. Hosts Kevin Roose and Casey Newton introduce the episode titled “Kitchen Gear That Lasts a Lifetime (or Extremely Close)”, emphasizing the importance of investing in durable kitchen equipment amidst a culture of disposability.

Main Discussion:

1. Understanding "Buy It for Life"

The episode delves deep into the concept of "Buy It for Life," a philosophy advocating for the purchase of high-quality kitchen items that withstand the test of time.

• Definition and Importance: Michael Sullivan, a senior staff writer on Wirecutter's kitchen team, explains that "Buy It for Life" items are those that, with proper care, eliminate the need for future replacements. “If I take really good care of it over the course of its life, I will hopefully never have to buy that item again” ([13:09]).

• Personal Anecdotes: Hosts share personal stories about inherited kitchen gear, highlighting the sentimental and functional value of durable items. For instance, Rosie Guerin reminisces about a glass juicer passed down through generations, illustrating the longevity and emotional attachment such items can foster.

2. Categories of Durable Kitchen Gear

**A. Buy It for Life Items

• Cast Iron Cookware: Sullivan emphasizes the durability of cast iron, especially enameled variants that require minimal maintenance. “If it starts to rust because you accidentally left water in it, it’s really forgiving. You can strip the pan again and completely start over” ([16:01]). He shares techniques for seasoning and restoring old cast iron, ensuring they remain functional for generations.

• Tri-Ply Stainless Steel Cookware: Tri-ply cookware, featuring three layers (aluminum sandwiched between stainless steel), offers excellent heat distribution and durability. Sullivan notes, “What makes tri-ply great is the aluminum heats up quickly and distributes heat evenly, while stainless steel is non-reactive and holds heat well” ([14:35]). He cautions against dishwasher use to prevent corrosion, advising hand washing to maintain longevity.

• Flatware (Silverware): High-quality stainless steel flatware, particularly those marked with 18/10 or 18/8 alloy numbers, are recommended for their resistance to rust, superior luster, and durability. “These are going to be the most durable because they have more nickel in them, better luster, and they will not rust” ([22:12]).

• Wood Cutting Boards: Sullivan champions thick, maple wood cutting boards for their longevity. Proper maintenance involves regular oiling to prevent warping and cracking. “It takes like 30 seconds. You put the mineral oil on a rag, rub it over the board, and then let it” ([23:19]).

• Metal Bakeware: Bare aluminum bakeware is highlighted as a durable option, capable of lasting decades if hand-washed. Sullivan contrasts it with silicone-coated alternatives, which degrade faster. “Bare aluminum bakeware will last forever, while silicone-coated pans won’t” ([25:17]).

B. Items That Last Decades

• Appliances (Stand Mixers, Blenders, Food Processors): Simple-function appliances with robust motors, such as KitchenAid stand mixers and high-quality blenders, can endure prolonged use. Sullivan advises investing in models with minimal electronic components to reduce the risk of failure. “The inside is not that drastically different between a cheap toaster and an $80 one” ([39:05]).

• Knives: High-carbon steel knives are recommended for their ability to retain sharpness and resist rust. Proper storage, such as using knife strips instead of drawers, enhances their lifespan. “You never want to put them in the dishwasher. Keep them on a knife strip or in a drawer with protection” ([34:52]).

• Tempered Glassware: Tempered glass, known for its strength and safety features, can last decades if handled properly. Sullivan explains the science behind its durability and recommends brands like Duralex and Kaler. “Tempered glassware is designed to break into small, less dangerous pieces” ([35:58]).

C. Items Not Expected to Last a Lifetime

• Nonstick Cookware: Nonstick surfaces degrade over time, necessitating frequent replacements. Sullivan points out that not all cookware needs a nonstick coating, suggesting reserving such pans for specific uses like scrambling eggs. “Nonstick cookware needs to be replaced repeatedly once the coating wears down” ([37:05]).

• Electric Kettles: Even high-end electric kettles with advanced features tend to fail faster due to complex circuitry and delicate components. “Electric kettles are unreliable across the board, regardless of price” ([38:16]).

• Toasters: Modern toasters, especially those with intricate designs and multiple settings, are less durable than vintage models. Sullivan highlights that heating elements in older toasters were sturdier, while modern ones are more prone to breakage. “Modern toasters are more brittle and prone to failure compared to vintage models from the early 20th century” ([39:05]).

3. Cost vs. Quality

A significant portion of the discussion addresses whether higher-priced items guarantee better longevity. Sullivan argues that, in many cases, affordable options like Lodge cast iron pans perform just as well as their expensive counterparts. “There's no difference in performance between the $40 Lodge pan and a $300 direct-to-consumer brand” ([26:15]).

Tips for Finding Quality Gear:

• Patience in Purchasing: Gradually acquiring high-quality items over time can mitigate the financial burden. “You can really just acquire things slowly. Like my All-Clad set, I bought it piece by piece over several years” ([28:23]).
• Estate Sales and Thrift Stores: These venues offer excellent opportunities to find durable kitchen gear at reduced prices.
• Certified Refurbished Products: Purchasing refurbished items ensures quality while saving money.

4. Maintenance and Care

Proper maintenance is crucial for extending the lifespan of kitchen gear:

• Cast Iron: Regular seasoning with flaxseed oil and avoiding dishwashers prevent rust and maintain the nonstick surface.
• Wood Cutting Boards: Frequent oiling and even drying prevent warping and cracking.
• Flatware: Hand washing and avoiding dishwasher use preserve shine and prevent rust.
• Glassware: Handling tempered glass with care and avoiding drops minimize breakage.

5. Personal Takeaways and Insights

The hosts and Michael Sullivan share personal reflections and actionable advice:

• Avoid Overbuying: “Don't feel like you have to get everything all at once. Acquire items slowly and patiently” ([28:23]).
• Sustainable Practices: Using durable items reduces waste and environmental impact. “Using these items is sustainable and there's no reason to pay more for something new when it works just as well” ([29:38]).
• Emotional Value: Inheriting or investing in long-lasting items fosters a deeper connection to one's kitchen and heritage.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Sullivan on "Buy It for Life": “If I take really good care of it over the course of its life, I will hopefully never have to buy that item again” ([13:09]).
• On Tri-Ply Cookware: “The combination of stainless steel and aluminum... causes the aluminum to corrode if put in the dishwasher” ([15:07]).
• On Flatware Quality: “High-quality stainless steel flatware with 18/10 or 18/8 alloys are the most durable” ([22:12]).
• On Electric Kettles: “Electric kettles are unreliable across the board, regardless of price” ([38:16]).

Conclusion: The episode of The Wirecutter Show adeptly navigates the intricacies of selecting and maintaining kitchen gear that promises longevity. By categorizing items based on their expected lifespan and providing practical maintenance tips, Michael Sullivan equips listeners with the knowledge to make informed, sustainable purchasing decisions. The overarching message underscores the value of investing thoughtfully in quality over quantity, fostering both financial savings and environmental benefits.

For those interested in exploring the recommended products and detailed maintenance guides, visit nytimes.com/wirecast or refer to the show's comprehensive notes.

Transcript

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[Goldman Sachs Announcer]

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[Casey Newton]

Happy holidays, everyone. We at Hard Fork are off this week. We are taking a much needed vacation. So there won't be a new episode in your feed this week. But in the place of that, we wanted to bring you a recent episode from another podcast from the New York Times that we love, the Wirecutter Show.

[Kevin Roose]

Wait, you're on vacation this week? I've been delivering toys to all the boys and girls across the land.

[Casey Newton]

I thought that was you. Yeah, Casey, you were the one who actually suggested this Wirecutter show episode. What? What, what made you want to put it down? Our feedback.

[Kevin Roose]

Okay, so here's what I really liked about this episode. I love being in the kitchen. And we don't often think about the kitchen as a place where technology plays a huge role, but of course it does, Kevin. You know, these days we do not cook with fire alone. We have gadgets, we have tools. But I'm always wanting to know what are the actual best tools? Which are the good ones, that are cheap, which are the sort of splurges that I should make, which ones will last a long time. And so when I found out that the Wirecutter were doing a show about that, I said, get that to me immediately and then let's share it with all of our listeners.

[Casey Newton]

So this episode features Michael Sullivan. He's one of the senior staff writers on Wirecutter's kitchen team. And he basically walks through his tips and tricks for finding the best kitchen gear. If you just got some new cast iron cookware for Christmas, they will teach you how to make it last a lifetime. Or if you just got a bunch of stuff you don't like and you want to return it for some stuff you do like. Maybe this will give you some ideas for some kitchen gear you might want. We will be back next week with a new episode. See you then.

[Kevin Roose]

See you then. Happy holidays.

[Goldman Sachs Sponsor]

This podcast is supported by Goldman Sachs Foreign.

[Goldman Sachs Announcer]

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[Kyra Blackwell]

From the New York Times. You're listening to the Wirecutter Show.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Hey, everyone, it's the Wirecutter Show. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Guerin. And we work at Wirecutter, the product recommendation site. From the New York Times.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Each week we bring you expert advice from Our newsroom of 140 journalists who review everyday products that will make your life better.

[Kyra Blackwell]

This episode of the Wire Cutter show is called Kitchen Gear that Lasts a lifetime or extremely close.

[Rosie Guerin]

Hi, pod pals.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Hey.

[Rosie Guerin]

Today I want to talk to you about buying things for the long haul. Things that you might be able to, let's say, invest in on the front end, but they're going to really last. For instance, I have this glass juicer that I got from my gram, and I know it's really sweet. And actually, I think she got it from her best friend, Ruthie. And every time I'm juicing a lemon, I'm thinking of them. And this thing is from. It's gotta be from the 40s. And it's been around. It was my mom's and now it's mine.

[Eric Kim]

That's so sweet.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I love that. I actually have some things in my kitchen that my parents have passed down to me. I have a skillet and I have a saucepan that I used as a kid, and now they're in my kitchen and I could probably pass them on to my kids.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Honestly, man, I have one nice set that my dad gave me for graduation, but I think that might be all I'm working with.

[Rosie Guerin]

I feel like, honestly, today there's all of this pressure to buy, to buy to buy. To buy and things feel or are more disposable. But I personally wanna get better at investing in things that maybe they're not the coolest, maybe they're not the sexiest, but they're gonna last me.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, I mean, you know, funny thing is, working at Wirecutter, you'd think that all the folks that we work with are kind of obsessed with buying, like the newest, coolest thing out there. But I mean, so many people that we work with really don't buy a lot. And I've noticed that the longer you work here, the more people tend to try to just like, kind of save up for really nice things that they'll use for a long time. I think there's like this feeling that it just feels bad to use something that breaks after a short period of time and then you get rid of it and then it ends up in a landfill and you're just contributing to this bigger world problem that we're facing. And so, you know, there is actually a word for this. It's called buy it for life.

[Rosie Guerin]

Oh, I like that.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, There's a whole subreddit about this thing.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Oh, yes, I love that subreddit.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

It's all these people asking for advice about really high quality products that will last a lifetime. And then like a bunch of other people chime in. Honestly, I think a lot of the questions are about things that just can't last that long. I recently saw questions about, like, underwear brands.

[Rosie Guerin]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Like, you don't want those to last that long.

[Kyra Blackwell]

You know what I do appreciate about that subreddit? It's how devoted these people are to finding quality items that will last a long time, which is what we're going to talk about today. We're going to focus on the kitchen because that's a place where you can actually buy a lot of things that will last a lifetime.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Totally. We actually have one of wirecutter's kitchen experts here who knows a ton about kitchen equipment and specifically what lasts and what doesn't. Michael Sullivan has been reviewing kitchen gear for close to a decade.

[Kyra Blackwell]

That's right. Michael is incredibly knowledgeable about both old and new gear. He covers a wide range of appliances and tools like toasters and skillets and cutting boards. And he also knows a lot about maintaining gear. He's honestly written so many of our care and maintenance guides. And he also has a hobby of going out to estate sales and thrifting and specifically looking for old kitchen gear. And so he really has a great sense for what will last a long time.

[Rosie Guerin]

I'm excited to hear from Michael and I'm excited to figure out if there's anything in my kitchen already besides my beloved juicer that might last me a long time.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

We'll see.

[Kyra Blackwell]

We're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we'll talk with Michael Sullivan about how to build your Buy it for Life kitchen Foreign.

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[Christine Cyrclassette]

Cooking at least three to four times a week. I love sheet pan bibimbap.

[Eric Kim]

It said 35 minutes, it was 35 minutes.

[Rosie Guerin]

The cucumber salad with soy, ginger and garlic.

[Kevin Roose]

Oh my God.

[Eric Kim]

That is just to die for.

[Indeed Representative]

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[Eric Kim]

The instructions are so clear, so simple and it just works.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Hey, it's Eric Kim from New York Times Cooking. Come cook with us.

[Eric Kim]

Go to nytcooking.com.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Welcome back to the Wirecutter Show. Today's guest is Michael Sullivan, one of the kitchen experts here at Wirecutter. And in this episode we're going to talk about pushing against this culture of disposability and what it really means to invest in so called buy it for life items specifically in the kitchen. Michael is one of Wirecutter's longtime kitchen writers. He's reviewed everything from flatware to toasters and he's had a ton of experience with both new and old kitchen gear and can really advise on what will last and what probably won't.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Michael, welcome to the show.

[Eric Kim]

Thank you so much.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So great to have you here. So, Michael, I used to be your editor on the kitchen team a long time ago and I know you've reviewed all kinds of kitchen products and done some wild testing. You really try to see if this gear is durable and will last a long time. Can you tell Kyra and Rosie how you test drinking glasses? I love this story and I promise it does relate to our topic.

[Eric Kim]

Sure, yeah. So, I mean, one of the things I think we're always looking for with drinking glasses is like how durable they are. And so one way to test for that is to kind of like put them in a real world setting, which is dropping them off of counter height, so 3ft onto a marble slab. And so over the years I've broken probably hundreds of glasses to try and find the most durable. And I'm sorry to all of my co workers in the office on those days because it's really not a pleasant sound. But yeah, that's kind of how I do it. And also like tap them against the edge of a counter and, you know, do various things. You also do stress tests with putting them in the freezer and taking them out and then pouring boiling water into them to try and get them to crack. I don't recommend doing that at home, although I've never had any of them break through that stress test. But certainly the drop test, that's a really.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm just imagining it like a Greek wedding, like everybody's just throwing glasses on.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Or just like when you're at a restaurant and somebody breaks a glass and it just goes quiet.

[Rosie Guerin]

One of my most memorable moments of my summer job when I was younger, I was a cater waiter and I was carrying a tray of champagne flutes and there was a lip or, you know, I got distracted or something and there it went. In the middle of cocktail hour at somebody's wedding, I would quit.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I just go home. You don't have to pay me for that. Well, Michael, I feel like the term buy it for life has been thrown around a lot. People on Reddit love that term, but I don't actually think that most of the products that we want to be forever products actually are. So I was wondering what that term really means to you, specifically with kitchen gear.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, to me, when I think of a buy it for life item, it's something that if I take really good care of it over the course of its life and the time that I'm using it, I will hopefully never have to buy that item again. And so that includes a lot of things that aren't too complicated. They're really the things that you're going to reach for over and over again in your kitchen. Like really good cookware as an example, like cast iron or tri ply stainless steel. You know, these things, if you take good care of them, they'll last your life.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I love that.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I love that too. But the reality is not everything we buy for the kitchen is going to last forever. When you're investing in kitchen gear, how would you categorize some of these other items?

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, there's buy it for life and then there are things that I think you will have for decades. You know, they will last a long time, but not forever. And then there are things that are absolutely not made to last, like plastic cutting boards that you'll need to replace and box graters once they become dull. Those kinds of things that can't. I mean, you'll have to replace them eventually. Those aren't intended to last for your lifetime.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay, so it's like, buy it for life, Buy it for decades and buy it for now, I guess.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah. All right, so let's get into the first category. Like the things that are truly buy it for life. You just mentioned cast iron. You mentioned tri ply cookware.

[Eric Kim]

What is tri ply so triply is it's three layers and it's a layer of aluminum that's sandwiched between two layers of stainless steel. And what's great about that is the aluminum heats up really quickly. It distributes heat evenly across the pan. And then stainless steel is non reactive to like acids and things like that. And it holds onto heat really well. So it's a really great combination. And those three layers are lighter than say like cast iron, which is quite heavy. So if you're tossing brussels sprouts or whatever you're tossing in your pan, it's not as heavy to and cumbersome to lift. But that is a really. I mean, I have all clad pieces that are tri ply, I think are now roughly 15 years old.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Wow.

[Eric Kim]

But I know like friends and chefs that have had theirs for over 20 years.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, my grandma had all clad and when she that all went to my aunt. Yeah, I was very jealous.

[Rosie Guerin]

But for tri ply. Michael, are you mostly speaking about pots and pans?

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, like cookware. I mean, the one thing I should say though, about tri ply is that you never want to put it in the dishwasher, which is probably what no one ever wants to hear. But I think if you really want your stuff to last, like you Just never want to put it in the dishwasher.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What will happen to it if you put it in the dishwasher?

[Eric Kim]

So not to get too in the weeds on this, but the combination of stainless steel and aluminum, called a galvanic couple, and that combination of metals, essentially like when introduced to acids and certain cleaning products in a dishwasher will actually cause the aluminum to corrode. So you'll actually break down. And that you can see in like some older, like when I was in culinary school, we had auklad and you would see like this ring of where the aluminum was, you know. Cause if you look at it at an angle, you can see the layers. You can actually see the different layers. And it had completely like worn down because, you know, they were just those, Those were maybe 30 years old and were really getting some heavy use and they were being washed in a dishwasher.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What are some other types of kitchenware that you would consider buy it for life items?

[Eric Kim]

Cast iron. Like I mentioned enameled cast iron.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What's the difference there?

[Eric Kim]

The enameled cast iron has an enamel coating on it. So it's actually easier to care for than bare cast iron, which you will need to season like lodge, which is what we recommend a cast iron skillet that comes pre seasoned. So it's ready to go. But you will need to maintain that over the course of its life. And I think a lot of people are very, myself included, very precious about our cast iron. It's like I always tell my husband, I'm like, let me wash that. He knows now he just like sets it aside. I'm like, that's mine, don't touch it. But I will say the one thing is, if it does like, let's say a guest accidentally puts it it in the dishwasher or it starts to rust because you accidentally left water in it. It's actually really forgiving. And you can strip the pan again and completely start over and re season it. So I have cast iron pieces in my kitchen that are over 100 years old that I've picked up at thrift stores and stuff. And some of them were like completely corroded or covered in gunk. And I just stripped them down and completely redid them.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What does it mean to season a pan?

[Eric Kim]

So you're polymerizing fat onto the pan you're baking it on.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay.

[Eric Kim]

And that's what's giving it a non stick surface essentially. Yeah, you just basically, I mean, I can, I can talk about that.

[Rosie Guerin]

Give us the definitive instruction for how you season.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Tell me Like I'm six.

[Eric Kim]

Okay. Okay. So I really, I like to use flaxseed oil. I just find that it's really durable once it's on there. But I do this like six or seven times. If it's a new pan or one that I'm like, I've stripped down and I'm re seasoning. But yeah, so you basically like rub a very small amount of oil over the whole pan, the handle, the inside, the outside, and you wipe it off like as if it looks dry. And then you invert it and put it in like a 400, 500 degree oven and bake it for like an hour. And then you turn off the oven and let it just sit in there until it's cool. And then you'll start to see, like when it's raw cast iron, it has sort of a silvery color to it. But then it'll start to turn dark brown or black. Like as you do more and more layers of the seasoning. Once you do that, you're like, good to go. And you kind of just use it as you normally would. If it starts to over time, you know, it can flake off or there are areas where food's stuck to it and it rips the seasoning off. You can just re season it. So that's what I mean by. It's like, it's very forgiving. Okay.

[Rosie Guerin]

That's seasoning. Describe what you mean by stripping.

[Eric Kim]

So I don't know if you've ever been to a thrift store and you see like old cast iron pieces that are. Have tons of gunk on them just from like years and years of cooking the way I strip it. Cause I live in New York City and I don't have like a professional would use a lye bath. Probably someone who's like restoring cast iron a lot. I stick it in a bag, like a trash bag on my fire escape, which don't tell the fire department and like spray it with easy off and leave it there overnight. And then the next day it just strips everything off. You can also use bar keeper's friend and steel wool and just scrub the heck out of it. But honestly, it's very easy to just spray it and it just melts off.

[Rosie Guerin]

Easy off in a bag. In a garbage bag. Preferably on a fire escape in New York City.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Overnight.

[Rosie Guerin]

Overnight. And you have a brand new pin.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah. Don't tell my neighbors.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah, I'm calling 311 immediately.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I also think the little thing for me about cast iron. Cause I use it a lot at Home is like, I don't think you actually have to be that precious with it. Some people are precious with it. It's not as finicky as people think, I think.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, I agree.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So you mentioned enameled cast iron. So for those who aren't really familiar with that, Le Creuset is, like, the most popular. But, I mean, we don't actually recommend that as our top pick. Right.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah. We have Lodge, which is another similar product, just enameled cast iron, which is a lot less expensive. The nice thing about them is that you never really have to worry about seasoning them. I think the biggest issue with them over their lifetime is that the bottom will get scorched a little bit. You can return it to its former glory, which I've done many times. Not always. I mean, I think sometimes if it's really old and it's been, like, really abused, that might be permanent. But in a lot of cases, if you use one part bleach to three parts water and you fill your Dutch oven, leave it for a few hours or overnight, it'll bleach out that scorch. It'll bring it back to its, like, pale color. Recently discovered that if you use a magic eraser on the enamel part, like on the outside, which can get a little, you know, sometimes, like, if you're cooking in your kitchen, it's out on a shelf, and it gets, like, dust and oil and gets goopy, and then you bake with it. It can get a little, like, baked on there. But actually, a magic eraser will actually just, like, take it right off, which is pretty handy without damaging the enamel.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That's amazing.

[Rosie Guerin]

We love a magic eraser.

[Eric Kim]

You really do. Or it can chip, too. And that's. That's just part of it.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But, you know, I've had that happen with. With a Le Creuset, and they honored the warranty and sent me, and I. I shipped it in and they sent me back one, so.

[Eric Kim]

Well, that's good to hear. Yeah. Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

All right, Michael, so gear, cast iron, enamel, cast iron, tri ply, stainless steel. What else are we looking at?

[Eric Kim]

Gosh. I think, like, flatware is another. Really is one that could last for a long time. My parents have had their. I just texted my mom yesterday because I knew it was going to be on the podcast, and I was like, how long have you had your flower for? And she was like, it's about 40 years old at this point. Oh, my God.

[Rosie Guerin]

Made of what material?

[Eric Kim]

That's a great question. I thought you'd never ask.

[Rosie Guerin]

Aw.

[Eric Kim]

So basically, if you flip over, like a fork or spoon and you'll see on the neck of the piece, you'll usually see, like, numbers on it. And It'll say like, 1810, 188, 180. Maybe you're not a nerd like me.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Do I need a nerd?

[Kyra Blackwell]

You're not like, no, you can see.

[Eric Kim]

It, but you gotta be looking for it. So those numbers just tell you the amount of chromium and nickel that's in the alloy. So you generally want 1810 or 188. There's, like, not a difference between them. According to steel experts that I've spoken to, they are under the same category of alloy that would be called, like, type 304. So those are going to be the most durable because they have more nickel in them, so they have a better luster. They will not rust. They're going to be less likely to scratch over their lifetime. And they're not. You can't bend them very easily. If it's 18 0, it has no nickel in it. And so you could deal with, like, more rust spots. It's usually easier to bend. It's all the things that the other two are not.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So for high quality stainless steel flatware, you want to look for 1810 or 1888 immediately.

[Eric Kim]

Okay.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay. And avoid the 18 0.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah. I mean, you know, in college I had 180 because. It's.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Because you were in college.

[Eric Kim]

I was in college, and it's fine. Yeah. But I think if you're trying to, like, upgrade or like, you actually want something that's going to last for many, those are the ones you want to look for.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I didn't actually realize that the list of buy it for life would be so long. But after all of that, are there any other things that belong in this section?

[Eric Kim]

I think if you get a really good quality wood cutting board that can last for your lifetime if you take care of it. It really depends on how willing you are to baby it. And by a good quality one, I mean one that's thicker. So like an inch and a half to two inches will resist warping better. But the thing with wood, these are the key. You need to know you're gonna have to oil it frequently. I think when you bring a new board into your home, you want to try to do it every two days for the first week, once a week for the first month after that, and then once a month, forever after that.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So you're really entering into a relationship with your wood cutting board.

[Eric Kim]

You are. But this is, you know. But I always Say it's like, it takes like 30 seconds. It's like you put the mineral oil on a rag or a paper towel, you rub it over the thing and then you just let it.

[Rosie Guerin]

You whisper, I love you. Yeah, I love you, and then you walk away.

[Eric Kim]

I mean, I also think when, when you're washing a wood board, you want to wash both sides or wet both sides of the board. Because that way the moisture will evaporate like evenly across the whole board. You also want to towel dry it. And then if it doesn't have feet, you want to prop it up against the backsplash of your kitchen so that it can air dry. If it has feet, you can leave it, you know, just flat on its.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Feet and getting it wet on both sides. Why is that?

[Eric Kim]

Well, because sometimes if the moisture is evaporating more on one side versus the other, that's what will cause warpage. Yeah, and feet are really good. You know, all the woodworkers I spoke to really recommended this because when you're chopping, when you're preparing dinner and there's like moisture on your counter, if it's sitting in that for hours and then you eat dinner and then you maybe wait a while to do your dishes, you know, that's a really long time for it to be just like sitting in water. So they really recommend these feet that just like lift it up off the counter and you don't really have to worry about it so much. You don't have to be so precious.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay, so, Michael, are there any last buy it for life items that we haven't touched on yet?

[Eric Kim]

I think another one would be metal bakeware. So I have tons of aluminum cake pans and, you know, loaf pans and all that kind of stuff at home. And I've had, I think some of them over 20 years now. And they all look like new. Like I said, I don't wash anything in the dishwasher secret. I don't have a dishwasher. So it's very.

[Kyra Blackwell]

You live in New York City, so that's not that uncommon.

[Eric Kim]

But even if I did, these are just things I would wash by hand. You know, we recommend silicone based coated cake pans. Those will probably not last as long cause that coating will eventually wear away. But we also recommend just the bare aluminum and those will last forever.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay. So a lot of this stuff is just about like taking care of it essentially. And we have tons of guides on the site that you've written, Michael, about how to care properly for these things. So they do Last that long. You don't have to, like, write down all these notes right now because we do have extensive show notes that will link back to all these guides.

[Rosie Guerin]

Michael, Some of this stuff, like the Le Creuset dutch oven, all clad skillets, or even a really nice wood, thick wood cutting board like we were talking about, they can get really expensive. I know we're talking about them as buy it for life, you know, items, but I'm curious if price always equals quality for this type of stuff, Do I have to be spending a lot of money to get this longevity?

[Eric Kim]

Not always. You know, like, yes, wood cutting boards are expensive. The boards that we recommend are all made of maple, which is a domestic wood. And that's really recommended by a lot of the experts I spoke to. And it's all made in America, which also adds to the cost of it. But cast iron can actually be really cheap. Like, it can be like, under $40 for a cast iron pan that will last your entire life. But there are also, like, direct to consumer companies that will market their pans that are, like, $300 or more, and it's the exact same thing. We've tested them in the test kitchen side by side. They don't perform any better than the, you know, the 35, $40 Lodge pan. We've also sent these to be look Ohio State University and their material science department. And they're still kind of in the process of doing some research on that for us, but so far, it doesn't seem like there's a difference in the.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Materials between the $40 pan and the $300 pan. And are some of these direct to consumer brands? Are they kind of just, like, using this aura of the buy it for life ness of cast iron as, like, a way to jack the price or, like, why would people. Why would anyone think that they could charge $300 for a cast iron skillet?

[Eric Kim]

I think it's this, like, weird trend where, like, even I'll see it, like, estate sales or thr. All the cast iron has just, like, skyrocketed. And it's like, what is going on? This is not an expensive material. But, yeah, I think it's just that they're trying to make this sort of, like, heritage brand, you know, make you feel like this it's something you can pass down for generations, which is true, but it's like, yeah, but so is the lodge. And it's like, costs like, a fraction of that. You could buy, like, a 100-year-old cast iron on, like, ebay for less than what some of these new brands are trying to sell their cast iron for. So it's just like, it doesn't make any sense.

[Rosie Guerin]

So don't be hoodwinked into overspending on cast iron. Don't do it.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I mean, for me, a Le Creuset has been on my Amazon wish list for years now. Cough, cough. If somebody wants to get that for me for Christmas, would not be mad, but I just can't afford it. Like, I feel like people my age can't afford these really nice, beautiful things. So I was wondering if you have any tips for how to find these things for better prices.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, that's such a real concern. And I think my best advice is always to, first of all, don't feel like you have to get everything all at once. Right? Like, I think we live in this culture of like, buy, buy, buy, and we feel like, oh, God, I need to have all these things. It's like, you know what, you can really just acquire things slowly. Like for instance, my all clad. I have a full set of all clad, but I just bought it piece by piece over several years. But now I will never have to buy it again. You know, and I like, I love to look at it hanging on the wall and being like, ah, I'll never have to worry about buying that ever again in my life. But, you know, it does take time. So you just have to be patient. But think, looking at estate sales, I think looking at thrift stores, you can find really great deals on cast iron, especially and enameled Dutch ovens. You can also, if you look for certified refurbished appliances, those are another really good way to get marked down in price for a really good quality product. Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Like on ebay.

[Eric Kim]

As long as it's certified through the company. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

What about people who feel icky about the idea of buying used, used kitchen gear? What do you say?

[Eric Kim]

Okay, well, I always say when you go to a restaurant and you sit down to eat, everyone has eaten off those plates and that flat.

[Rosie Guerin]

What?

[Eric Kim]

Right.

[Kevin Roose]

Yeah.

[Eric Kim]

So I don't see the difference. I think using these items is sustainable and they're incredible quality. And there's no reason why I feel like I need to pay more for something new when it works just as well.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I love that. So if people are interested in kind of investing in their kitchen in a buy it for life way, kind of taking an approach where they're going to buy it once and use it for decades, the places to really focus are on some of the cookware that they can buy. So, like Whether that's tri ply, stainless steel cookware, whether that's like a Dutch oven, an enameled Dutch oven, cast iron, wooden cutting boards, silverware, flatware, bakeware, these are great places to focus their energy. You don't always have to spend like top dollar to get these things, especially if you're willing to look for deals or just like be patient and buy over time.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

We're going to take a quick break and then when we come back, we're going to talk with Michael about things that you shouldn't expect to last a lifetime. Manage your expectations. We'll be right back.

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[Christine Cyrclassette]

Welcome back to the Wirecutter Show. Today we're talking with Wirecutter's kitchen writer Michael Sullivan about how to invest in great, durable gear for your kitchen. Before the break, we talked with Michael, the gear that you can expect to last a lifetime if you take care of it. And now we're going to get into all the rest.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Michael, if we're moving into this second category you mentioned earlier, which is the all the kitchen stuff that you can buy that might last decades, what would you consider to be those items?

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, I think those things tend to be appliances that are pretty simple in their function. So like a stand mixer, like a KitchenAid stand mixer or a Cuisinart food processor. A food processor. It's just like pulse or on off. Yeah, it was not too complicated, you know. And like with a blender, if you're spending upwards of usually around like $200 and up, you start getting like a much better motor that can handle a lot more. And you know, you want to look for ones with a blender jar that is slightly tapered so it creates a better vortex. These are going to last you a really long time. And of course it depends on how much you're using these things too. Right. Like you could get tons of use out of it if you're not using it as much. If you're, you know, if you're making nut butters and you're really using that machine, then it may be over time won't last as long. I see blenders and I see food processors all the time at estate sales. In fact, I was just at one this weekend. It was a Cuisinart, I think, from like the early 80s. The jar was a little discolored, but like, otherwise that thing was still in working order.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And it kind of probably looks like the new ones, like the, the design hasn't changed that much over the years.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, I think it was like a tan col. But yeah, those are things that will last you a really long time also, I think worth the investment, you know. And then other things too, like knives, which I think those can last a lifetime. I think my parents have had their knives for. They were a wedding gift and they've been married over 50 years now. How though have they been married 50 years now?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, that is a different podcast. Go to Modern Love for that. No, I just feel like I don't. I mean, I try to sharpen mine consistently, but it still just feels like I'm gonna. I'm at the end of their lifespan and it's only been maybe five, so I don't know. How do you make them last for 50?

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, I mean, I think you have to start out with like a good quality knife. And we recommend high carbon steel, which takes an edge really well, can stay sharp for a long time, won't be prone to rusting. You don't ever want to put them in the dishwasher. That's, you know, it's a common theme here. Yeah, I think listeners are not going to like anything I have to say. But yeah, the banging around in the dishwasher can, you know, damage the knife blade also. So you want to keep them on like a knife strip on the wall or if you're keeping them in the drawer, don't just like keep them loose in the drawer. That's not only dangerous, but all that being around, you can chip the blade, you can dull the knives faster.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What about glassware, does that belong in this category?

[Eric Kim]

Glassware is something that can last for decades, particularly if it is tempered glassware. That just means that it has been heat treated to make it stronger and so it's actually such a fascinating process which I will nerd out on for one second. But it basically, like with tempered glassware, the glass is force cooled from the outside. And so the center of the glass is then cooling more slowly than the outside because it's got this air blasting on it. And so that puts the center into tension with the outside, but it's balanced by compression. The atoms in the center of a tempered glass are actually like trying to pull themselves apart, but it can't because it's balanced by that compression and tension. Right. That's what makes it so strong when you drop it and doesn't break. I mean, it can break, it just is. You know, I've dropped some tempered glasses 20 times onto marble and it didn't break.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I never dropped a glass that didn't break.

[Rosie Guerin]

Well, that's how you know you've never touched tempered glass in your life.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

Right.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Now, what are some of our picks? We've always had Duralex as a tempered glass that we like, which is like super classic. What are some of the other ones we love?

[Eric Kim]

Kaler is another one that's actually was kind of a surprise one where it actually outlasted the Duralex. And the most recent tests that I did, that was the one that I dropped 20 times and it didn't break. I did not, though, put it back on the shelf. That one will not be used anymore once I do the drop test. Because little nicks, you're doing damage to the glass, even though you can't necessarily see it with the naked eye. Once anything gets into that tencel area in the center of the glass, that's when it breaks. The glass will break. But the cool thing about tempered glass, it's actually known as safety glass and it's what's used in side and rear windows of cars. Because when it breaks, it breaks into little cube shaped pieces versus like really jagged sharp shards. And you know, of course you could still cut yourself, but like, they're not as, as threatening as like a really jagged, sharp piece of soda lime glass. Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So, Michael, we're going to touch on the third and final category, which is items that you should probably set lower expectations for when it comes to kitchen gear. What are things that you shouldn't expect to last a lifetime?

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, a big one is, is nonstick cookware. Once that coating wears down, you have to replace all of your pots and pans again. And when you think about it, there's not really a reason why you need all of your pans to be non stick. It's great to have one for like scrambled eggs or you know, your fish that you're cooking. But you don't need like a stock pot to be nonstick, right?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah.

[Eric Kim]

You're just gonna have to replace it over and over and over again throughout your lifetime. So yeah, that one's tricky and I think too like you can't put it in the dishwasher, you can't use it over high heat. Cause it starts to break down trend here. Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And how do you know it's time to actually replace your non stick? What are the indicators?

[Eric Kim]

I mean, I think you'll know your food just starts sticking all the time.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Does it look, is there like a coat?

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, it'll be worn down. The PTFE coating has started to wear off and then it's time to replace it.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

You also mentioned a little bit earlier in the show how like for decades items might be items that don't have too many buttons. Maybe they're not heating a lot of stuff. So is there like a category of stuff that like if you do have a machine that's always like an electric kettle, I guess like it has a bunch of buttons. Not a really long lifespan, I'm guessing.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah. For some reason, you know, electric kettles are just so unreliable across the board. So like even the high end ones, the more expensive ones that have variable temperature controls that you can set the temperature that you want it to heat the water to, those actually tend to fail maybe more often than ones that are pretty simple that just like on off boil the water. But they are all kind of prone to failing at some point. They don't last for long time. And we've actually sent those to Ohio State University, to the material science department there. And they looked at them, took them apart, and it seems like they're all pretty much the same inside. There's not a huge difference in quality between the high end and the low end. Unfortunately, that's not one that's going to last too long.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What about toasters? Michael, I know you've done a lot of research on toasters.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah. So a few years ago I was sort of thinking about how my elders will often say they don't make things like they used to. And I was sort of like, wait, but that might be true with toasters. And if it is, I want to know why that is. And so I had this idea to send vintage toasters dating back to 1918 through like 1930 to the material science department at Ohio State University. Shout out to Professor Elvin beach, who is really gracious and helped us with this, and his students helped us analyze all of these toasters. Basically, I sent those vintage ones and I sent our Pix, which is a Cuisinart and Breville model, and they did comparative analysis on both. They scanned the metals in all the heating elements to compare them. The big takeaway was that the older toasters were more durable, the heating elements. The modern ones are more brittle. They're a little bit more delicate, more prone to failure. And we also learned that, again, similar to what we were talking about with the electric kettles, the inside is not that drastically different. In the cheap $30 toaster versus the $80 toaster of the modern ones. I'm talking about really what you're paying for when you buy an expensive toaster is, like, if it has lots of bells and whistles, you're paying for that. You're paying for more complicated circuitry, you're paying for, like, if it's stainless steel exterior of the housing, that's gonna cost a lot more money. So that's really where your money's going. It won't necessarily last longer than the cheaper toaster.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And how long should someone expect a modern toaster to last?

[Eric Kim]

It's hard to say because, again, it always depends on how much someone' but I would say, like, five to 10 years. It also depends on your climate. Like, if you live in a really humid climate, that's bad for the heating elements. They can corrode faster. If you toast a lot of frozen bagels or waffles, the moisture from that is also really bad for the heating elements. Not to say that you can't use it. It's just that contributes to the corrosion over time.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So what I'm hearing is if you want a toaster that will last longer than a decade, you need to find one from, like, 1910 or something.

[Eric Kim]

1919. I don't know. You know, this is like a fun fact, but way back, like, over a hundred years ago, those to we didn't have wall outlets. Right. We only had. When we first had electricity, you just had the socket. So all of the toasters, you would screw them into the light socket in your home. It's wild. Yeah. There's so many beautiful ones. And, like, toaster collectors, you know, are, like, pretty serious about.

[Rosie Guerin]

Oh.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Cause I know about toaster collectors. This is news to me.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm sure there's some kind of convention somewhere in this country.

[Eric Kim]

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

Okay.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, Michael, we usually ask our guests one final Question. So what was the last thing that you bought that you really love? Loved?

[Eric Kim]

I think just this last weekend I got this very cool bottle opener which is a brass handled bottle opener and it has a knight in armor on the end of the handle. Ooh, I love it so much.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Where'd you get it?

[Eric Kim]

I got it at an estate sale. Yeah, sounds like it.

[Rosie Guerin]

Can we make this a two part question? Because I want to know also, what is your favorite heirloom item in your kitchen?

[Eric Kim]

Ooh, that's so hard. I like so.

[Goldman Sachs Sponsor]

Well.

[Eric Kim]

I guess my great grandmother's ravioli cutter. That's like solid brass. That's like so cool to me to have that.

[Rosie Guerin]

What shape is it in?

[Eric Kim]

It's perfect shape and I've never done anything to it. I just use it and then wipe it clean and put it away and that thing is just like still going strong.

[Rosie Guerin]

That's special. That's really cool.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

Well, thanks, Michael.

[Eric Kim]

Thank you all.

[Rosie Guerin]

Thanks so much for joining us.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Rosie, Kyra, I feel like that was some real info that Michael just shared with us.

[Rosie Guerin]

I learned so much. Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I mean, I think that the glassware, the atoms being trapped, that was like the plotline of a Marvel movie for me. Unreal.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah, it is.

[Rosie Guerin]

It's like the profession of a Marvel villain.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah. I didn't know that there were glasses that wouldn't break when you dropped them also.

[Rosie Guerin]

I didn't either. I've never dropped a glass that didn't break.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Did someone approach you at a mall and been like, this is like unbreakable glass? And then he dropped it and it broke.

[Rosie Guerin]

What's a mal?

[Kyra Blackwell]

This is a different. It's a generational divide.

[Eric Kim]

Just kidding.

[Rosie Guerin]

I love them all. One of the things I will take away honestly and really take to heart is that the things that I have been putting in my dishwasher I really probably shouldn't put in my dishwasher.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, there's so much heat in a dishwasher, it just breaks stuff down.

[Eric Kim]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Real quickly.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I don't. Well, I don't have a dishwasher so I was good on that one.

[Rosie Guerin]

There you go.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I think my biggest takeaway was I do have cast iron skillets and I thought that I would was both seasoning and cleaning them correctly and it turns out that I am not. I did not realize what seasoning actually meant. So I'm going to go home and do that today.

[Kyra Blackwell]

For me, my takeaway is that I am going to just start following Michael around to all the estate sales, whether he wants me to or not. No, just joking, Michael. But I also think that I'm going to just keep lower expectations for the toaster that I have and the electric kettle that I have because they're probably just not going to last as long as I want them. Them too.

[Rosie Guerin]

Bonus takeaway. If you have a beautiful perhaps maple cutting board, you got to take good care of the baby.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, like just a honeymoon phase with your cutting board.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yep.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Lot of lot of love, lot of.

[Rosie Guerin]

Time, lot of tenderness. Well, that's it for us this week. If you want to find out more about wire cutters coverage or if you want to check out any of the products Michael recommended Today, go to nytimes.com wirecast or you can find links in our show notes. And if you want to check out some footage of Michael in his kitchen, some cheeky behind the scenes of his vintage wares, follow us on Instagram. Wirecutter Kyra Christine.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Here'S what's coming up next week on the Wirecutter Show. For earbuds, I love Sony and their names. I'm telling you, the WF1000XM5. I know you're going to remember that, but the rest of your lives.

[Rosie Guerin]

Oh, sure, the XM5.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Make sure you're following the show on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss it. The Wirecutter show is executive produced by Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel. Editing by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Elisheba Itup and Diana Wong. Wirecutter's deputy publisher and interim general manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief. I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Guerin.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Thanks for listening.

[Rosie Guerin]

That was beautiful. In every single area you're not about. Okay, let's go eat.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay.

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[Eric Kim]

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