JAMI MORGAN: The end of Code Orange, 10 Years of "I Am King", nowhere2run Productions

Summary

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HardLore Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: JAMI MORGAN: The End of Code Orange, 10 Years of "I Am King", nowhere2run Productions
Date: October 23, 2025
Hosts: Colin Young (Twitching Tongues & God’s Hate), Bo Lueders (Harms Way)
Guest: Jamie Morgan (formerly of Code Orange, currently nowhere2run)

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Episode Overview

This heartfelt and candid episode covers the end and legacy of Code Orange, the creative birth and ambitions of the new project nowhere2run, a history of ten transformative years since the release of "I Am King," in-depth stories about collaborations with wrestling legend Bray Wyatt, and tales of perseverance, artistic evolution, and community within hardcore and heavy music. Jamie Morgan speaks openly on struggles, creative directions, and personal tragedies, blending humor, nostalgia, and insight.

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Main Topics & Key Discussions

1. Life After Code Orange

The Final Chapter & The End of an Era

• Jamie discusses the lead-up to Code Orange’s final shows, detailing the cancellations (due to member injuries/illness) and the emotional fallout ([27:34–41:33]).
• The last show was a chaotic festival set marred by technical problems, power cuts, and conflicts with festival staff ([37:59–42:46]).
• “I think Code Orange in a certain way is done. And I think Code Orange could exist in another way at some point.” — Jamie ([43:50]).

The Band's Ethos: Perfection and Competition

• Jamie explains the band's relentless practice ethic and high standards:

  “If music was a sport…when we got up there, we fucking win.” ([00:14]/[30:23])

Reflections on the Band’s Trajectory

• Jamie reflects on Code Orange’s constant need to evolve, often feeling "always gaining fans, losing fans" — a “hamster wheel” caused by ambitious artistic shifts ([15:29]).
• The band’s attitude: “We’re gonna do whatever we want. Every good one [band] used to say ‘F--- you’” ([22:30]).
• On the mission statement to break up the “same five bands” festival cycle—Jamie admits, “I was right but wrong about the type of music and bands” ([24:31–25:03]).

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2. Wrestling, Bray Wyatt, and Lost Creative Potential

Creative Collaborations

• Jamie recalls the close friendship and creative synergy with the late Bray Wyatt and the impact of his passing:

  “He got me excited about creativity. He’s one of the few people…who’s really motivated me, believed in me.” ([07:15])

• Details of unfulfilled, cinematic ideas for Bray’s WWE return involving prosthetics and hidden set pieces ([06:29–07:15]).
• Jamie’s respect for wrestling’s creative world. Emotional recounting of experiencing the tribute maze for Bray ([04:14–08:12]).

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3. The Making and Aftermath of "The Above"

Transitioning Sound & Reception

• "The Above" aimed for a new hybrid—blending trip-hop, alternative, and heavy underbellies, visually inspired by films like Vanilla Sky and The Truman Show ([12:22–13:47]).
• Internal and external challenges colored the release: member health, money woes, and stress ([11:06–15:29]).
• The band always tried to keep “dots connected and threads woven” through their evolution, but audience expectations often diverged ([17:11–19:22]).

Critical Reflection

• Jamie expresses pride in "The Above" but admits confusion at the intensity of negative feedback, acknowledging a pattern of pushback at every Code Orange transition ([21:41]).
• Recurring theme: perseverance, spite, and the will to “keep building” despite setbacks ([26:19]).

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4. Nowhere2run & Blood Rave

Birth of the New Project

• Jamie and Shade (with Dom) dive into “starting at the bottom again”:

  “We sat…back in the room, just experimenting, trying to figure it out…building a new town” ([54:56–59:14]).

The Blood Rave Concept

• The “Blood Rave” is an immersive, DIY, multimedia event inspired by Blade, Batman, and the Matrix:

  “What would we want to be at?…Let’s just call it Blood Rave…Let’s just experiment and see what performing would be like in a super cool environment.” ([60:35–65:58])

Work Ethic & DIY Mentality

• Jamie is deeply hands-on: designing graphics, booking artists, building stage sets. “It fucking sucks for sure…but people are excited about it and we keep…crafting these rooms” ([63:32–64:59]).

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5. Artistry, Hardcore Community & Influences

Scene Reflections

• Jamie discusses the vibrancy of Pittsburgh hardcore, current bands blending styles, and the enduring appeal of hybrid forms ([83:11]).

Mosh Science Legacy

• Acknowledgment that Code Orange’s innovation in heavy breakdowns influenced a whole generation ([89:21]):

  “Your innovation in mosh science defined a small generation in hardcore.” — Colin ([89:21])

Personal Favorites & Giving Flowers

• Jamie names his four favorite hardcore records:
  • Buried Alive – Death of Your Perfect World
  • Hatebreed – Perseverance
  • Built Upon Frustration – Resurrected
  • Enemy Mind – Killer Beef ([118:02–119:19])
• Personal mosh part favorites in Harm’s Way and Twitching Tongues ([116:47–117:41])

Quotes on Identity and Drive

• “End of the day, these are my brothers.” ([45:20])
• “When you're buried, you're buried…and when you're over, you're over.” ([55:14], [69:58])
• “I really do believe in myself, and I really do believe that I have some things I really want to and will achieve.” ([105:15])

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6. Film Scoring, Next Steps, and Creative Vision

Debut as Film Composer

• Jamie describes scoring and soundtracking the upcoming film Violence, which also involved writing songs for an in-movie punk band (and acting) ([109:30–114:51]).
• “It was months of being deep in this thing and it was an awesome time…I’m really stoked on the soundtrack and the score and everything.” ([114:51])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Band Practice:

  “If we didn’t know something…we stop and we redo the whole thing. Because guess what? We gotta go again.” — Jamie ([30:02])

• On Wrestling & Bray Wyatt:

  “He…gave us that…over and over…Greatest guy in the world.” — Jamie ([07:15])

• On Evolution:

  “I really tried to put a lot of effort into kind of keeping dots connected and keeping threads woven through all the records, including on ‘The Above’…” — Jamie ([17:47])

• On Motivation:

  “It's what I do…I’m forced to do it.” — Jamie, on his art and new music ([79:06])

• On Perseverance:

  “What gets me through life…is to just keep pushing forward and finding new goals.” ([106:13])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:05 – Code Orange rehearsal discipline / band perfectionism
• 03:28 – Friendship/creative relationship with Bray Wyatt
• 06:29 – Bray Wyatt’s unmade cinematic ideas
• 11:06 – The making, intent, and reactions to "The Above"
• 27:32 – The end of Code Orange and canceled tour fallout
• 37:59 – Last show chaos at festival ("Avenged Sevenfold incident")
• 41:45 – Giving away mics to the crowd, mud fights, band-on-crew conflict
• 43:50 – Confirmation: end of the band (as formerly known)
• 54:50 – Launch of nowhere2run, mental health, and creative reset
• 60:35 – Origin of the Blood Rave event
• 83:11 – Pittsburgh hardcore scene and hybrid bands in 2025
• 109:30 – Film scoring for Violence and crossing into cinema

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Tone & Language

• Jamie is always earnest, intense, and self-critical, sometimes self-deprecating, mixing humor with candor and creative focus.
• The hosts are playful and affectionate, regularly punctuating somber moments with jokes and “hard lore” in-jokes.
• The tone turns philosophical when discussing legacy, grief, and artistic purpose.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a masterclass in hard-earned wisdom and artistic honesty from a modern heavy music pioneer. Jamie Morgan opens up about loss, ambition, creativity, and personal growth. It’s required listening not only for Code Orange or hardcore fans, but anyone interested in the mindset behind ambitious art and unrelenting self-reinvention.

Transcript

[Colin]

If you're mid song and somebody messes up in a Code Orange, practice what happens.

[Jamie]

I mean, it's not great. It's not good.

[Colin]

Really.

[Jamie]

I mean, stop. Redo the whole set. If music was a fucking sport, if this shit we all do as a sport, when we got up there, we fucking win here.

[Colin]

Mystery won't bear it long It's L.

[Jamie]

Outside all.

[Colin]

Cover your face when you.

[Jamie]

Walk by Dread your visor Darkness.

[Colin]

Spit up love when you go Cool, cool, cool. Hello, welcome. It's hard Lore time. How you doing, Bo?

[Bo]

I'm doing excellent today, Colin. Who do we got?

[Colin]

You know, it's October, it's spooky. Things are happening outside. The leaves are. All the leaves are brown and the sky is gray.

[Bo]

Gray. That's right.

[Colin]

We've got a very fun guest today. It's a returning guest.

[Bo]

That's right.

[Colin]

It's been many years since we last spoke to him on the show, and we figured it was high time we heard about what he was doing now. He used to be known as Yami or Yami from Code Orange, and now he's known worldwide as Jamie from nowhere to run. How you doing, Jamie?

[Jamie]

I'm doing good. Can you please put in Eric Bischoff theme? I'm back and I'm back.

[Colin]

Didn't he have Back in Black once?

[Jamie]

I don't know. I used to think that was him doing that, though. I always imagined it was him on the mic.

[Bo]

I thought Big show saying his song.

[Jamie]

Song.

[Bo]

I. I thought.

[Colin]

I think he did that tweet of. I thought it was Big show in the studio talking about.

[Jamie]

No, that was him for sure. Are you insane? Was it not?

[Colin]

I think he hates it. Not only was it not him, he hated the song, but he knew it was. It was over.

[Jamie]

Oh, dude. I stood by Big show one time. It was absolutely insane.

[Colin]

And you're huge.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Because you were up to his shoulder. And for you, that's, like, crazy because you're the tallest person I've ever seen in my brother.

[Jamie]

I was at his nuts behind him in a catering line that I shouldn't have even been in. And all of a sudden I look up and it's. We're. It's fucking Big show getting green beans. I'm nervous. I'm like, I know I shouldn't. We're not supposed to be here, but they put us back here, so, you know. I know. You know. What's up with that? Yeah, sure.

[Colin]

How was the catering?

[Jamie]

It was great. The wwe, they take care of you with the catering? Man, I put you in the room.

[Bo]

Yeah, I've heard you.

[Jamie]

You know, what would happen with Bray is with Bray, it was great because he'll. He'll just brother you straight in there and sit you down and, like, you feel good, you feel protected. Other times I've been led back there, you feel led astray. Like you're led there and let go, and you're just a true. A true penis man in the wild, just waiting to be. Waiting to eat someone's shit. You know what I mean?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

One of the times.

[Colin]

Last time we spoke, the episode aired one month before Bray Wyatt passed away.

[Bo]

Damn.

[Colin]

You had all these plans for what. What you guys were gonna do together. You were secretly working on new stuff.

[Bo]

Yep.

[Colin]

He was campaigning for you to play live again.

[Jamie]

How.

[Colin]

How was going through that? I mean, what a. What a brutal. I just went to his Horror Nights maze. It was unbelievable. Like, the.

[Jamie]

I'm going this week. It's that they got a little music at the end and at the beginning, so that was pretty sweet.

[Colin]

I was wondering. You can't hear it super well because of all the ghouls. Yeah, the ghouls are screaming. But it is a beautiful tribute nonetheless. Tell me about just that. That loss, that experience, and what it was like to work with him so intimately.

[Jamie]

Dude, it was. Man, it was a rough. It was a rough time just overall. But I don't even want to act, though, like, you know, there's people that suffered so much over that, and I definitely was one of them, but thankfully, you know, I didn't have to feel it like his family did, you know? So I hate even sometimes, like. But it was. It was rough, man. Dude, he was the coolest dude in the world of all wrestlers I ever met. Like, I mean, outside of, like, people, like, you know, we're close friends with or whatever, but like, like the best music, like, the coolest movies, just was like. He was just fucking awesome. We click so quick. He went to bat for us so hard. I mean, none of that would have ever happened organically. It was forced, you know, which. Yeah, it was. It was all him. You know, he just had that aura from, like the 80s or something. And, like. Like I was saying, like, when he would walk you in, you were just like, I'm the man too. You know, That's. That's how fucking. How big. How big he. He made you feel. And he was such an awesome guy. So creative, I think, even more so than a wrestler. Just wanted to, like, make.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Do creative stuff, especially the second run like, when he came back, that was like, all we would talk about. He would call me and be like, jamie, so here's what we're gonna do. You know, it's gonna be like 300. There's gonna be nobody in this, in the stadium, and it's gonna be like the Roman Coliseum, but it's just gonna be us. And I was like, dude, I don't think that's wrestling. But I mean, I'm down with it completely. Like, it sounds great, but I don't. I don't really think that that's gonna happen. But he made a lot of things.

[Colin]

Happen that, yeah, I didn't think would happen.

[Jamie]

So.

[Colin]

Yeah. Were there big plans in motion that didn't come to fruition?

[Jamie]

You know, it's hard to say. There was a lot of ideas. Some of the ideas have kind of sort of turned into what they're doing, kind of. There's a lot of ideas with his brother, for sure. Yeah. What his initial idea was, I mean, I don't want to put it the wrong way, but, like, things change there. That seems like a lot.

[Bo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie]

So he had an initial idea. I'll say this. Like, the initial idea that I thought was so cool was he wanted to like, when he was. This is when he's coming back, you know, in that second, that last run. He wanted to do the comeback by. He wanted to get like, by our guy Jason Baker here, who does crazy prosthetics. Like a full, like, old man prosthetic that was completely unrecognizable. And he wanted to be in the background of shots for like weeks, super far background blurry. And then, you know, his idea was, you know, on the. And this is kind of where we came up with the beginning of the song on, like the debut, the piano thing would start and it would slowly zoom on in on him. And then he would peel the whole prosthetic off and it would be him and he.

[Colin]

It would have.

[Jamie]

He would have been there like all along. So it's just fucking crazy ideas like that. But, dude, we have. Sometimes I'll just look at like our texts and he just. He got me excited about creativity. He. He's one of the few people, truly one hand people in my life who's really, like, really motivated me, believed in me, you know, given me all the opportunities in the world and was just like, go. You know? And, you know, he got us through some rough periods just by being like, wow, well, this is all going bad. But they got this going on, like, you know, the Feeling like when you're just hanging on to like something. He gave us that, like over and over, so. Greatest guy in the world. He would have loved this haunted house thing. I mean, he talked about this like a million times. He wouldn't even be able to believe it. It's like kind of a cruel irony that he passed and, you know. But like. Yeah, I'm going with his wife on Wednesday, so I'm super excited.

[Colin]

It really is just like the whole thing is like tribute to him.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Bo]

Did you guys perform that song just.

[Jamie]

As the band, like perform live or you mean like recording wise?

[Bo]

No, no, no, I, I mean, did. Was that song ever like on the set list?

[Jamie]

Oh, no, because it was a hard sell. I was into doing it, but really Shade and I made the song so it kind of. I don't think to the band, like it necessarily. I mean, I think some people would have been down for it for sure, but I was just some people in the band. It wasn't the band, you know, I guess all the way. But I would have loved to have done. I think that would have been really cool then kind of like maybe it's like a encore or like just something cool like that. Like one of those festivals. I batted the idea around, but no, it never happened.

[Colin]

Last time we talked, you were about to also announce and release the above.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Colin]

And then you did that and a lot. And then I did that sense.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Colin]

So let's, let's talk about the above. Putting it together.

[Bo]

Beautiful.

[Colin]

Diet Coke.

[Bo]

The Mini.

[Jamie]

Mini dc.

[Bo]

I love the Mini.

[Jamie]

We're gonna be stressed out. You need a little mini DC, you.

[Colin]

Know, one sip per 10 minutes.

[Jamie]

I love a Mini. I absolutely love a Mini. Like a little, just a little D.C.

[Colin]

You can make feel bigger.

[Jamie]

You go to AMC Lowe's, you got maybe two, three mini DCs in different areas, you know, in different pockets that you have. And you just bust them out ever so slightly in intervals and it's just a great feeling.

[Colin]

I, like, I can already tell your attitude towards what we're about to talk about.

[Jamie]

No, no, I'm just playing. I'm, I'm, I'm happy to talk about it. So what's it? What do you ask me?

[Colin]

And I'm asking you about the above because we, you, you hadn't even announced it last time we spoke and your attitude was very much like, we're about to announce this thing. See, if, if this ain't it, I'm done.

[Jamie]

Yeah, a lot about the time periods.

[Bo]

Well, it's, it's worth pointing out too, though. It's worth pointing out too that when we spoke, you guys hadn't played yet that day. You were about to headline Outbreak. And even that you were a little. Or did what it was Code Orange, Converge, either way. No, no, there was. There was like a hip hop.

[Jamie]

It was awesome. Death Grips, right? It was Austin Death Grips. Yeah. And it was. We. They played after us, but we both got to play at the end, which was sick.

[Bo]

Direct support then to a really bad. You guys ended up having, like an incredible set. I remember we both watched. It was like, awesome. And even before that, you were like, yeah, I don't know, this could be weird. This could be a weird one. So it's. It kind of is fitting with, you know, what you were about to do. So I would love to know, like, from that, because that is the last time we, like, spoke about this kind of thing from that point forward. Just take us. Take us on the journey.

[Jamie]

Take you through it. Well, Juan, do you guys remember how hot that room was that we were in? That, like, tiny room? Oh, yeah, it was hot and loud and it was like a. That was a. I was in a bad mood as well. It was, it was, it was. It was a fun interview. But yeah, so the whole time period around that show and even like the record come out was. Coming out was kind of blurry just because there was so much going on. I mean, Dom was dealing with this horrible, like, on setting injury disease, which ended up, you know, being. He's doing way better now, but it was attacking his joints, you know, like, piece by piece. So he's falling apart. Lots of things are falling apart. You know, we had worked really hard on the record for a long, long time. It had gone through like some different. You know, it takes time, as you guys know, still waiting on that twitching one when. Whenever that's coming, Colin. But it takes a lot. Takes a little bit of time when you, you know, you're cooking it. So I think, you know, the record I really truly did and still do, like, believe in, I was like, I was super excited about the idea of kind of hybrid ing another new element, you know, I guess like the way I kind of viewed what is one.

[Colin]

Of our records that you think you.

[Jamie]

Like, inserted this time, Trip hop kind of thing. A little bit of that, I guess, like alternative music and almost like a brighter sense in some way. And like, to me, that was very much embodied in what we were doing visually as well. Like, I guess like a good kind of reference for how I Saw the record was like, I kind of. You know, I'm super visual with music. Like, honestly, I feel like if every song we did add, like, a video, it would be received better just because that's like. Like, how I think a lot of the. You know, it gets downloaded through my brain, but, like, the Matrix to me, or, sorry, underneath of me felt like the Matrix or something like that, you know, like, even aesthetically or like Dark City or something kind of technological. And. And to me, this was like a lot of conceptually and philosophically and personally, like, the ideas were like inverse on this record, obviously, with the titles and, you know, the kind of basic philosophical understanding you get from that. But, like, I was thinking of, like, Vanilla Sky. To me, that was like one of my. Or the Truman show, which were like movies that were like inversions on my favorite. You know, kind of almost like, again, like, they're like philosophical musings on, like, technology, but more so like perception, you know, and like layers of reality. So I thought if we're gonna. We're doing this record, there's pieces that are coming into play from people in the band that are maybe lean, like more alternative or even, like you said, trip hop or, like, brighter. So I thought, okay. Something started to click for me where, like, I think that would be a really cool way to contextualize where we almost use heavy music as this kind of buggy, disgusting underbelly to something that's almost like more artificially beautiful, which will be kind of like the alternative music element, you know. So that was like, my vision for the record. Obviously, as much as it's a fucking mouthful, it's a earful as well. It's. There's a lot to kind of. You have to parse through, you know, part. Part of what we wanted to do on that record is like, what Turnstile's done now. Something that we pitched really hard and tried to find the money for and couldn't, but was to make like, a film, you know, it was kind of written almost for that in some regards, a seven or eight song kind of short music film that I think would have at least helped make some of those contextual ideas, like, more understandable and feedback into the whole process. But so, yeah, we worked in this record for a long time. The wheels started kind of falling off for a lot of different reasons. That Outbreak thing, which, again, yeah, going up to that, I should have been so excited for that. And you never know.

[Colin]

I know that feeling.

[Jamie]

I was always stressed, though. I mean, I was stressed every fucking thing we were doing and like, this is just partially who I am, but it was also of the time, you know, but everything felt like the weight of the world. I mean, we're, we're having a very, you know, just to break the fourth war. I'm a very hard time making any money whatsoever. For one. We're rolling the dice constantly with our own fans. It feels like we're always gaining fans, losing fans, gaining fans, losing fans. Unlike this hamster wheel that's hard to build off of.

[Colin]

But does that, does that make sense to you now? Because like I would, I've heard, I heard every Code Orange record early, every single one. And we had in depth conversations every time. And I would, I would try to get your perspective on like why you're doing what you're doing. Cause I like whenever I got your context on why a song sounded a certain way, I would understand it more. Cause like my first instance on hearing some things, I'd be like, I don't think this is for me. And you'd be like, it's this and this and this and here's why. And then I would go, okay, I understand. Yeah, but like you, your audience, the audience you built was from extreme music, you know, like the I Am King explosion, which we'll get into later because you just passed 10 years. Congrats. Mazel was from these scientifically brilliantly written breakdowns, mosh parts. And the songs that ebbed and flowed in between those mosh parts. These beautiful, these brilliant, groundbreaking songs that these little twinkie fuckers with no shirts on were playing and you evolved into this well oiled machine and the music evolved with you in such a way that it very much reflected like who you are in each moment on each record. So does it make sense to you now looking the hamster wheel aspect of like people getting on and off and on and off. When you're evolving so much record per record, do you look back now and go, okay, I get why some, the people who like this wouldn't like this. The people who like this wouldn't like this.

[Bo]

Right?

[Colin]

Or do you just like.

[Jamie]

I think. Yeah, no, no, to, to an extent. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I definitely, I mean I can just flat out taking myself out of even the context of our journey or like, because maybe the way I view our band is like a little bit different than that. Even though I definitely agree with like the foundation of what, what you're saying, like in terms of like just like, I guess not a counterpoint, but I guess I viewed some of Those songs in between the mosh parts, as you put it, as also, like an equally important kind of fat.

[Colin]

I didn't want to minimize it by.

[Jamie]

Saying, no, no, no, not at all. No. And I complete. I. What you're saying. And just in terms of, like, I would even tell this to my friends. Like, certain records, certain songs, I totally get if you just don't like certain things we're going for, period, you know, within the context of our growth journey. I feel like if you listen to the records in succession, which I'm, of course, most people would never do, and I'm not asking for that much attention span, you know, but, like, I feel like the growth is there, you know, the. I really tried to put a lot of effort into kind of keeping dots connected and keeping threads woven through all the records, including on the above. I think on the above, there are some, in my opinion, really killer hard parts. Mosh parts. So you would say, which I think. Which is important to me. I think the end of the first song is an insanely hard mosh part. I think the end of the second song is an insanely hard mosh bar. I think grooming, placement in the game, and fucking. I mean, there's. There's a number of them that I think have really hard mosh parts. So we put effort into because we like it, you know, having that connective tissue. But in terms of understanding it, I mean, I can understand in a way. I also think, though, that there are definitely. There's definitely been times where I've been confused about it. I think there's times where you've also been confused about it, you know, So I think. I mean, confused for your own band. And even you've expressed to me confusion for my band as well at times.

[Colin]

You know, underneath is the record where I was like, I don't understand why anybody who didn't. Who liked anything before this wouldn't be into this. This that was underneath was like, such a natural next step, and you got fucked by the pandemic.

[Bo]

I agree.

[Colin]

Yeah, you fucked.

[Jamie]

I mean, shit happened.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yeah. I mean, that definitely did suck, for sure.

[Colin]

Yeah. But the above was the record where. Where when I heard that, I was like, oh, this is a. This is a change and an evolution, you know, like, it felt very conscious of, like, this is whether or not you liked all that. This is what we're doing now.

[Jamie]

I mean, I. Yeah, sorry, sorry, continue.

[Bo]

I was just gonna say, I hear that. I. I hear that, but I also didn't. I don't know. I Didn't understand either. I. I was confused with. With the above being.

[Colin]

Sounds like Code Orange.

[Bo]

It sounds like Code Orange. And it did seem like. Yeah, they're doing like a sneaker Pimps thing on this one song. Oh, they got Billy Corgan on this one song. And the music video is the craziest thing I've ever seen. Like why is. I didn't understand. I didn't understand. So yeah, from the outside looking in.

[Jamie]

I mean I get not liking the. I guess I could put it in two departments, right. I totally get not liking the record. Of course we all have different. You know, there's different things we draw from even Colin. Like me and you have argued over a lot of bands, you know, so like we're naturally. There's things we have in common, but there's also a lot of things we differ. That record probably for you and I had a lot of the things we differ on more injected into it. But still had I. I thought a lot of the things we were, you know, together on in there as well. I didn't think that it was. You know. I won't name bands by name, but I think there are bands who make flat out records where those elements are dropped. Whether they become new wave or shoot gays or whatever. Our record again, the first two songs which are weird as have insanely hard full on mosh parts in them at the. At the end of both. So you know, and that. So again, I'm not trying to in any way debate with anybody who doesn't like the record. I completely get not liking the record. I love the record. I think it's awesome.

[Colin]

Then that's all.

[Jamie]

Obviously it's been a while that, that, that you know, I'm kind of ejected from it now a little bit at this point. But yeah, I feel like there's. There is a level just hate overall that we kind of received the whole way. I think you guys would probably agree with that, right? Just like every step, pretty much every step of the way. I mean.

[Bo]

But you know, even thrived. It always seemed to me like Code Orange from. From the very beginning from I Am King on thrived off of a We're gonna do whatever we want you kind of attitude down to changing what members were doing in the band and you know, like it's you. Yeah, that. That always seemed like the fuel for you guys because it was in the end working. It was, it was, you know.

[Jamie]

Well, I mean we didn't change ideas to say you. But the bands that I looked up to always did what they wanted to do. And also sometimes just straight up said, you. Like, when we talk about, of course, me and you bow like Nine Inch Nails, or we talk about Pantera, or we talk about, you know, you name them, everybody used to say you. I mean, literally every single band used to say you. Every good one. So to me, it was just like, well, you know, we. It like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna speak my mind. You know, we did. We weren't really, like, attacking anybody specifically. We were kind of attacking in some ways, which I think has totally changed. Just the idea that what we all do and what metal was doing at the time felt like stuck in a spot. That was the main thing that we were chipping at more than anything. We were never chipping against hardcore music, of course. I mean, we had hardcore bands on every tour we ever did. We were never chipping against, you know, like, our own culture. We were more felt like we were chipping outside of that, hacking away outside of that. And sometimes it would confuse me that in doing that, those inside of that would feel very. I don't know, they. We kind of felt a type of way about that. And I think that part of it was kind of confusing to me. Half the lights just shut off or this on. I don't know what's going on. Did the lighting change?

[Colin]

It looks. Isn't it interesting, though, that your. Your mission statement of out with the old and with the new?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Whether as controversial as it may be to whoever is taking it.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I guess that was kind of dickheaded, now that I think about it, actually.

[Colin]

But it did happen. Like, your whole thing. Your whole thing at the time was, we need new bands headlining these festivals. It's the same five bands rotating every time. And, like, whether or not it was the bands you suspected or picked, or wanted, it happened. Yeah, there are new bands.

[Jamie]

The other day. Exactly. Dude. I was saying that the other day. I was like, you know what I called the show? I realized this as the above was coming out even. It was like. And the reasons that we didn't tour that record and stuff or have nothing to do with this, honestly. But, you know, I realized I was looking around and I'm like, wait, so I was right. But it just turns out I was wrong about the type of music and bands. I was like, oh, God.

[Bo]

Like, I've called.

[Jamie]

I've called this shot.

[Bo]

And.

[Jamie]

And it's like, it's just. It's not going to be my band, which is. I. It's. That's life. And that and I'm. I feel like, you know, when you look at it, it's. I still think it's pretty badass that, you know, we rallied for that. And like, again, like, that's just how I am as a person. There was really nothing. You guys know. You guys know me. It's like, I'm a very nice guy, but at the same time, I'm very driven and I'm very. Can be a very not nice guy. And I try to, you know, I'm always pushing it. And I think that was kind of our messaging. But, yeah, it's hilarious. It did. It did really happen and it just happened. I'll be bands all that. I don't, you know, I don't listen to or whatever, but except for fucking turnstile, which is great, but outside of them, I don't, you know, it's not my thing. Which is kind of leads me to now where I'm like, okay, it's kind of worked out in the sense of like, where all the people are and what they're into now on a major level is not what I'm into like, at all. And really is nothing like what I do. So it's kind of like, it makes sense to like, maybe do a little bit something different and. And keep that same. Keep those same ethos. But, you know, it's just like the metal world at that level is not what I'm into musically, personally. You feel me?

[Colin]

Yeah, but much like Jesus Christ and Lars Ulrich, you were crucified for telling the truth in a way that people didn't, like in the moment.

[Jamie]

Yeah, they fucking buried me, but I buried them as well. So they. They went. They went at me, I went at them. They win right now. I'll win down the road. And it is what it is, you know, I mean, you gotta. I don't take anything. I don't take it too serious. The only. The only people still in my mind are like, people we know.

[Colin]

Yeah, sure.

[Jamie]

That's. Those are the ones that hurts. They never leave. They never leave. You know the. You know the feeling on that?

[Colin]

Oh, dude, that's all I feel. That's all I. That's all I know.

[Jamie]

You built your life around a slow.

[Colin]

Revenge that's really working is spite.

[Jamie]

Dude, you won, dude, I mean, you win. I texted you that, like, I'm like, you won, bro. They counted you out. Literally, they counted you.

[Colin]

Oh, dude, they counted to 10.

[Jamie]

They counted you out.

[Colin]

And then I said, and they count.

[Jamie]

Me out too, but I'm like, taker. I'M sitting. I'm coming straight back. I. You know what I mean? So it. We'll be back.

[Bo]

Jamie, can we talk about the last Code Orange performance?

[Jamie]

Ooh, yes.

[Colin]

Can we talk even before that? So the. The above tour did not.

[Jamie]

Did not happen, didn't materialize, can't. What happened there, sadly, that one was relatively straightforward. Like Dom was. And he could not do the tour. And that was the primary circumstance and other circumstances around that made it impossible to do the tour without him, you know what I'm saying? And put in the proper work to make that happen, which would, on such short notice, be really hard. So that was just, you know, and that's when I knew I was like, this shit's fucked. Like, because one thing I really believe in is, like, if fucking. And people probably laugh me and hate me for this too, whatever, but if. If music was a sport, if this we all do is a sport, when we got up there, we win. Well, we kick ass. You know what I'm saying? So I always felt, no matter what was going on, you know, the amount.

[Bo]

Of times I saw Code Orange almost completely implode from, like, from. It was like 2015. This is hardcore, where Reba's shaking her pedal board to get it to work. And it finally does to watching you guys at Riot Fest and your playback wasn't working seven minutes before your set time, and you guys are all freaking out. And then it worked like the. Yeah, you are very right in. You guys were always so chaotic.

[Jamie]

So it was chaos, man.

[Bo]

What? And then all of a sudden, it's. It's go time. And you guys would lock in. You were the. You were a team of Dennis Rodman, like peak. Peak 90s Dennis Rodman. But just so true, all of you guys.

[Jamie]

That's hard. We just go. When we got. And that's when that tour got canceled, I was like, all right. I realized the record, you know, again, one of the songs on the record was. Is still one of our main songs people listen to. But the record as a whole was gonna be like an uphill battle for sure. But I was like, you know what? We put our boots on. We get in that room. We do it the way we did it. We put. I mean, we pray. You guys know, we would talk about this. We practice so much. We would fucking grind for. We would just close that door in that room and be in there for 10 hours every day.

[Colin]

I always wonder, dude, if you're mid song and somebody messes up in a Code Orange practice what happens.

[Jamie]

I mean, it's not great. It's not good.

[Colin]

Really.

[Jamie]

I mean, stop. Redo the whole set. That's what we would do. We would redo that. If we were getting ready for something real. That's what we would do. If it was a real. I'm not talking like something, you know. If we didn't know some. Me too. If we didn't know some, we stop and we redo the whole thing. Because guess what? We gotta go again.

[Colin]

You ain't ready.

[Jamie]

Because. Because want to know. But you want to know why? Because everything we're talking about, it was like we're in an uphill battle. Like every step of the way. We're in a perceptional uphill battle. We're in a. We're from nowhere and no nobody uphill battle. We're in a financial uphill battle.

[Colin]

That battle ended at one point. The unknown nobody. 14, 2017. You were top of the world. The battle ended. You gave yourself. You were like, I'm not letting me enjoy this win. I'm going to add another hill to my own battle.

[Jamie]

Maybe that's true. Yeah. I guess I meant more in just a long term sense. Not in like all those battles were fought all along, but more. I guess what I meant to say is the one thing we could control is how good we were up there.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And that we didn't gas out and that we didn't. That we were ready to go. You know what I'm saying? So my thing is, you know, when we couldn't do that tour, I knew we couldn't fight the battle because we had to. We got to go show them. We got to do it old school, get up there and show them and. And we knew we'd win some of them if we showed them. Like, like always, like no songs went off great live, you know, so. But yeah, no, you're totally right. There was definitely, you know, we would. I would strap us with new challenges. I would say we all would for sure, like strap us new. But it was really only just based in what we liked and what we thought should be out there. It was always like, what would we want to be out there? Not like what kind of music is coming to us most naturally. It's like, what music do we want out there that's not out there? What's the hybrid? What's the mechanism? And that was always the leading kind of idea.

[Colin]

I think something I learned from you is like the difference between playing and performing, you know, was like, okay, I've been playing hardcore shows my whole life. I'VE not maybe been the performer that I should be after watching these fuckers do this thing. And that the lot, like the lives.

[Jamie]

Thought that about you at all, but.

[Colin]

Yeah, well, I appreciate that. But like the live show being unique is what makes people go, I sh. I gotta see them next time too. So that the above tour is canceled. You're devastated, you've been getting ready, and then you make an announcement that like, you've got a few obligations to fulfill.

[Bo]

Yep.

[Colin]

And you allude to the end of the band. So let's talk about those. Those obligations that you fulfilled the last few shows you played.

[Bo]

You could say vaguely, but you have a discord full of little detectives who are deciphering everything you've ever done, you know? So, yes, I remember that moment and I remember talking to like Ludens. Shout out Ludens. He's still. He's still our guy. And you know, just. Just like the, the like shockwave of like, oh, what? What's gonna happen? So what, what, what was this like?

[Jamie]

It was str. I mean, it was a stressful time period. I mean, we were. I was excited for the shows to some extent in the sense of we love playing shows, you know, and they were big shows. It was. It was like festivals. We were like headlining some of these like, second, third kind of stages, which is like, dude, when you do that.

[Colin]

It'S like the most money you ever make.

[Bo]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jamie]

I really wish I saw any of it. I'll tell you what. There was so, dude, we can have a whole other fucking podcast about that. But yeah, there's that.

[Colin]

Let's do this one.

[Jamie]

Okay, well, what. Just. Yeah, so. But you know, I. I was excited for. But there was also a lot of dread because of what was going on, you know, but those shows themselves, like, dude, just like playing. We did the Rockville one and we had built up this. Those festivals, we played them so much where we got to the point where, dude, we were playing like seven, eight, nine, you know, 10,000 people at some. At some of these, like at the end and that were walking over to see us. And it's not like we could draw those people at all at our own shows, but we kind of built ourselves into that ecosystem. And those shows are some of my favorite fucking shows ever. I mean, it's a. It's the greatest feeling in the world, you know, so it was fun in that way and a lot of other ways. It was God awful hell, misery, dog shit, you know, but in the day, it was what it was. We got through it. The last show we fucking got into it with everybody there and it was crazy.

[Colin]

Oh, is this when the Avengers sevenfold thing.

[Jamie]

I mean it can be called that. I personally never said anything about event 7 fold and have no problem with events unfold because my thing is that.

[Colin]

That was the last show you ever played.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Bo]

Can I. Yeah, maybe. Can I for the sake of the viewer, explain what I heard?

[Jamie]

Yeah, being.

[Bo]

Having to do with them. So basically certain bands, when they have big production and maybe pyro and stuff like that, or things get delayed and they have a sound check, that kind of time, there's only so much time in the day and when. When Pyro. Pyro tests and sound checks and things take too long, it eats away at other bands time. And I heard that you guys basically, you got. Is. Is what I've.

[Jamie]

Yeah. I don't even know from what I heard then if it really was that. A hundred percent. There were other things going on that I'm not comfortable disclosing.

[Colin]

Okay.

[Jamie]

That this is what I'll say if I am going to speak a band's name.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And say something about a band. I fully intend when I see that band in real life to have problems. And I have no interest in doing that unless that's decided. Right. You understand what I'm saying? If I don't want to walk around with that there. I have had problems with bands. It's not a good feeling. But when you have a problem, you have a problem that I'm not. You will never see me on stage saying X band, whatever. And then seeing them and being. What's up? Yeah, you guys, you guys know this. Like it's so. It's not even on some like tough guy type shit at all. It's more just like as fucking men, we can't be calling each other's names out and then it's. It's a fucking work. No, it's not a work, brother. It's a shoot. You know what I'm saying? So my thing is I didn't say shit about Avengers. I got no problem with them. I never really even listened to them. I got no issue with them. It's the bat and people have the bat and it seems. That seems great with the bat and everything.

[Bo]

Yeah, that's just what I heard. You know what I mean? I don't know. I wasn't there.

[Colin]

So you got fucked your last show ever. What. What happened during the actual set itself?

[Jamie]

They. They stormed the castle on us, brother. They tried to fucking take the stage tried to be heroes. Shut us down and it wasn't gonna work out like that.

[Bo]

The festival did not. Not a band the.

[Jamie]

No Avenge didn't ride on a bat up to us or anything. And it's Johnny. Johnny, now we're. Now we're brothering. Actually let's put the. Let's take the mask off. But yeah. No, Johnny Blaze didn't come up and unplug my. Yeah, all I'm saying is. All I'm saying is we were up.

[Colin]

There, but did Johnny Blaze's crew, you know.

[Jamie]

Okay. It's the play by play. This is all I know.

[Colin]

Okay.

[Jamie]

A couple hours before, we had this ginger brother. He was our tm. He was cool as. Dude, you gotta don't.

[Colin]

Any relation to Joe?

[Jamie]

No, another one. There's much to my dismay. No, but so this dude, he's awesome. Great guy, English brother, blanking on his name. He's loathes boy. Great dude. He comes up to me, five hours or we get there. Dude, this is another thing we would do.

[Colin]

We would be.

[Jamie]

We're there like 6am, you know I'm saying like ready to like. It's because we have to. They'll give you 11 minutes from 8:30 to 8:49 to fucking check. And we're gonna be there. You know, I'm saying. Yeah, so we're there. It's muddy, it's hell. The dude comes up to me, hey, at some point in the morning, hey, they might need to cut your set, whatever. And I told him, I said, brother, we can't cut the set. The set is set. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, the set's already set. And also, I wasn't saying this like this is our damn last show playing the damn Download.

[Bo]

So you knew, you knew we can't.

[Jamie]

No, but no, I didn't. This is how I didn't know. Okay, okay. He basically was like, all right, I'm gonna come back and I'll let you know what happens. He never comes back. I think we're good. He went back, said, we won't cut the set, everything's all good. So we have that issue. Issues start compounding as the day goes on. Then they're having even more issues, like beyond that, you know. And by the way, there was a certain amount of set condensing that we could. We. We were able to do, but past a certain point, our whole falls apart with like the way it's all set up with all this.

[Bo]

Totally understandable.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Technology.

[Jamie]

Yeah, dude, it's a yes well, we didn't, as we found out once we got up there, because none of that shit turned on at all whatsoever. So anyway we get. So we're back there, we're waiting to go. We're waiting to go. They're holding us off. They're holding us off. More minutes are going by. I'm thinking at this point, I'm thinking, okay, something's gonna get cut to some level. And okay, we go out there, nothing works. The ears don't work the tr. I hear the tracks in the distance because I'm on this like ledge, like out like 10 miles away from everybody. They're all, you know, so it's like wacky sounds are happening on like completely different parts. Yeah. I'm like, this is a. I instantly. Colin's gonna love this. I instantly. Boom. Color. Get color right away. Bleed. Because I'm like, this sounds like. I gotta believe. No, I knew that's exactly what I thought. My parents were there somehow in front of like the security. So I just go out there. It's on a tank. Terrible. I see them, I'm like, they're here. It's going bad time to bleed. Let's bleed, as Dana would say. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, we start bleeding, shit's going awry. We have to huddle up at one point, which is always a bad thing. If you ever see a band all. Unless it's like a. Like the fest style band.

[Colin]

What do we do?

[Jamie]

Yeah, literally we're like, what do we do? So we. We keep rolling. And then, dude, we're like four songs into the set. Power just goes out. They. They cut the power on us just straight up. So, yeah, so then people in the band start breaking once again. This is probably peeling the curtain back a bit too far. But my thought is we got to make something out of this. You know what I'm saying?

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

So we have some mic stands that we rented. It's our right. We were paying for it. I take one, sell to the crowd, they pop, there it goes, right?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

So I'm going one by one. I'm taking every single one out because it's getting. It's getting a big pop. What are we gonna do? You know, it's our.

[Colin]

That's 80. 80 quid, you know? Yeah.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

For a lifetime.

[Jamie]

Other people are doing other crazy shit that's got nothing to do with me. All right. And then some other people are doing shit that they're just breaking their. You know, just. They're fucking working an angle.

[Colin]

Maybe Never using it again.

[Jamie]

Yeah, who cares? You know, we don't care. And we're pissed off. You know, it's like we're. Our last show's been ended in 15 minutes. It sounded terrible. It's. It can't. It's. It's a nightmare. So then some. Some brothers tried to be a hero and they run on and they start grabbing our. And we get into it with them and I get into. With the guy and then Joe ends up getting into it with the guy who, like, runs the whole thing. And they throw our gear in the mud and I heard about it all has mud on it.

[Bo]

They put. Yeah, there was a location where gear was supposed to be loaded and code stuff was placed in just the middle of a field.

[Jamie]

Dude, Joe Goldman, my fucking brother, who I love, fucking lost his shit. That's the one thing he will not tolerate because he has to deal with all this shit. Yeah, he. He. That was. And that was the next problem that happened, which was like a whole backstage, like, basically it became like a. We got to get these guys out of here, like, situation, because it was just fires were going everywhere. You know what I mean? Which, honestly, when I look back, it was sick. I mean. Yeah, that's the way this. The way this should be. It is. You know, so wait, it's not that way at all, but it should be. If it was hard and fun, am I wrong? And that's really it.

[Bo]

Clarify this for me. So did you know that that was your last show going into it, or was it decided? Like, all right, it. That is the last one.

[Jamie]

I knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we knew. We knew. Yeah, we knew what was, you know, that that was gonna be the end of. End of an era for sure.

[Colin]

So you. You say an end of an era. Is that. Is Code Orange done?

[Jamie]

I don't think. I think Code Orange in a certain way is done. And I think Code Orange could exist in another way at some point.

[Bo]

Code Orange is forever.

[Jamie]

Ah, it is. But, you know, I think that if. When you see Code Orange again at some point, if, when, whatever, it'll be different. That's for damn sure. But. So I think it's. It's. A book has closed. One book has closed, but a big old book has closed, you know, but another, you know, but. But the story continues in the end, you know, And I think, like, what we're doing right now with myself and Shade and Dominic, you know, we're kind of doing our own path off of that. But, like, the band itself definitely will. Will, you know, I'm sure. I'm sure at some point when it makes sense, it doesn't make sense at all. Currently. There's no. I have no. There's no pining for it at the moment. You know, if it makes sense, I would love to get back up there. I mean, I love being up there. And y. You know, a couple. Some of my best friends in the world are in there, dude. Like, literally, guys I see every fucking day. I mean, fucking Joe Goldman just had a kid. We spend every fucking day together, frolicking in the fucking park and in the grass like a damn Disney movie where we're the greatest family in the world. I pick his son up like this, like Simba, and we hug and, you know, so it's like, end of the day, these are my brothers.

[Colin]

How's he doing?

[Jamie]

Greatest guy of all time. Greatest who ever lived.

[Colin]

Do you think that that video that he and I made, where I'm smacking him in the head, gave him cte that one day?

[Bo]

Didn't he have?

[Jamie]

No, you ain't. You ain't that hard.

[Colin]

No, I don't think so. But the two days later, the man don't know his name.

[Jamie]

Oh, you know what? That's a good point. I never thought about that.

[Bo]

Well, I mean, you have caused a.

[Jamie]

Lot of problems, and that's one of them, I would say, 100%. There's a lot of other ones. So we can do. We can talk about that as well.

[Bo]

He did the water slide, right? And then you did the video.

[Colin]

No, no, no, no. The video was before the water slide. The water slide was for sure, though.

[Jamie]

The water slide was killed and then twitching took off. I said, stay around, guys.

[Colin]

They took off, dude, that day. So we. We had that.

[Jamie]

And that was very twitching style. Everybody, I would like to jump in and say, you know, I know this is hard lore. Twitching controls the narrative on hard lore. But on my lore stepping in, there's a lot of things I could tell you about them.

[Colin]

The truth is, in Austin, we. So we headline the show. We had to. And we were like, this is fine. We're okay with that. We were fine with that. It was fine.

[Jamie]

Well, you said it's a beautiful thing to headline.

[Colin]

Was what? Houston?

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Was it Houston?

[Jamie]

It was somewhere. It was in Texas. Yeah.

[Colin]

You still didn't know. You still didn't know if you were going to be able to do.

[Jamie]

Was very Californian. So it was very. We got to go home.

[Colin]

It was week eight.

[Jamie]

Time to get back.

[Colin]

It was.

[Bo]

Got to get back.

[Colin]

We got had to get back. And then. And then.

[Jamie]

Dude was twitching. Should have had shirts. We got to get back.

[Colin]

We got to get back.

[Jamie]

It was all about getting back.

[Colin]

But we never left again.

[Jamie]

Back.

[Colin]

We never left again.

[Jamie]

Ah. Was that it?

[Colin]

We never did a tour again.

[Jamie]

We. Damn. It was that bad.

[Colin]

So can you blame me?

[Jamie]

I mean, I feel you now. I feel you 100%.

[Colin]

That was code orange vein.

[Bo]

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Colin]

Last one ever. Last full US tour we have ever done or will ever do.

[Jamie]

Show Me the body was there there. Show Me the body hit the show. They hit the show. They did.

[Colin]

They were even in Houston.

[Jamie]

Yes, they played. You remember them being on the tour at all?

[Colin]

I remember them playing in California and being confused by them. And then them smoking.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

I was like this banjo playing psycho. Just demolished me in my home state.

[Jamie]

Nobody demolished you. You guys rocked every one of those, dude. You guys rocked everything, everything we ever saw.

[Colin]

I appreciate you, everyone.

[Jamie]

Even the ones where the world said no. You know, there was a time where the world called me on the phone and said, what do you know? No twitching. And I hung up. I said, twitching lives on. And that was it. And we both switching all the way till the end.

[Colin]

So we missed one show. Yeah. Yeah, we missed one show. And then we never. We missed the same amount of shows you did, if you think about it. And then we took our ball and went home and we buried the ball. So give me a break.

[Jamie]

You guys did take your ball. You did take your ball and it was you. I remember the whole thing now. It's all coming back to me. But that's another episode that. The end of. What's. Can we do a real twitching end episode or we not get. Or not really like that twitching. Is there an app? What do you say? No, I'm. I'm aware. I'm saying. I'm saying the end of, you know, let's go through the eras. Let's go through the pain. What got us to hard lore? The suffering took Colin soul.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And they call and Colin. No, but Colin said. Colin said no. And he stood up and he created a cast. And that was it.

[Bo]

Dude.

[Jamie]

It's true.

[Bo]

Hard. Hard and twitching did the tour. Like we toured on rust and disharmony. And it was a really hard tour.

[Colin]

That was like that. That should have killed me.

[Bo]

Yeah, that was. That was a tough one. That was a tough tour.

[Jamie]

Why was it bad? Tell me why.

[Bo]

It was just. I mean, low, low attendance. It was just. It was just rough.

[Jamie]

Oh, okay. I wasn't thinking like Literally just nobody was there. I feel you. I mean. I mean, it's happened to me. We're part of an era where at times nobody just used to be there.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

I mean, and that was normal.

[Jamie]

Me and they just weren't there. It's like me and you, Colin, at points we didn't even know did we have fans at all. What do we make? Did we make it all up? We play one show, we thought, well, then we played six shows in Germany. There was no one there. There was no. There were no fans. So now it's a different era. I mean, I'm sure that there's shows where no one's there for sure. But, like, you know, I feel like at the. Dude. And Rust is a great record. Both of those are sick records.

[Bo]

It was 2015. It was just like a time. I don't know, it was. It was the opposite of 2023, you know, when every.

[Jamie]

Harm's Way always wrote it out, bro. Harm's way always wrote it out.

[Colin]

Still are the kings of riding it.

[Bo]

I just got back from riding it out.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Bo]

Christ.

[Jamie]

Yeah, but you're still always a. You're still always great. Every record's great, you know, and you keep. You keep fucking. You plow through it. You plow through the old ups and downs of this little thing we call hardcore. And that's really it, you know?

[Colin]

Pardon this interruption. I truly hate to stop you from listening to this incredible episode for even one second, but it's very important.

[Bo]

Yeah. What do we got?

[Colin]

So for the last two or three years on this show, every single week was brought to you by Mad Vintage. Our friend Luke wanted to offer the listeners of this show great prices on the coolest shirts in the world. He tragically passed away recently, as we've talked about many times, and his parents and his family have decided to not continue the MadVintage website. Understandably. But his friend and mentor Vic over at Mills Vintage, wanted to keep the same savings coming to you guys in the spirit of Luke. So for the very first time, this episode is brought to you by Mills Vintage.

[Bo]

That's right. Mills Vintage is located in Varsity in Los Angeles. We saw us go there on the Chappelle Lacy and Speed episodes a couple months ago. We were looking at all all these shirts that are on there. There's some crazy stuff.

[Colin]

Crazy stuff. We wear it all the time. I go there damn near once a week. It's a problem. You can shop site wide now, 10% off code, hard lore. Or if you're in LA, you go over to Varsity. You trade him, you sell him your stuff, he'll give it to us, Everybody's happy.

[Bo]

Or you can go to the new Mills Vintage location in New York. New York. The city so nice they need it twice.

[Colin]

That's right. 47 Delancey street, opening very soon. See you there. Mills Vintage. This episode is also brought to you. You're not gonna believe this, guys. It's also brought to you once again by manscaped.

[Jamie]

We're back, baby.

[Bo]

We're shaving your back, baby.

[Colin]

Straight up. Namely. You know, we talk about the crop reviver all the time. We've talked about the crop preserver all the time. They keep your balls smelling fresh and good. Or any party, really. But today they want us to talk about the handyman.

[Bo]

Boom.

[Colin]

It's the ultimate portable trimming tool.

[Bo]

Tell them about that.

[Colin]

It's got skinsafe technology to reduce cuts and nicks. It's waterproof, and it reduces the risk of ingrown hairs. It's unbelievable, really. You can just stick it in your pocket and go anywhere.

[Bo]

I was just gonna ask. How big would you say that was? And let me ask you. How much savings could someone get when ordering one of these things?

[Colin]

Using our code, they can get 15% off now with code hard lore and free shipping.

[Bo]

That's right. They didn't forget.

[Colin]

They know they didn't forget the free shipping. They couldn't have. We would never have accepted it. But you load up that cart. You get the crop stuff. Keep the. Keep it all clean. Okay. You're stanking a little bit. It's been a while since we've recommended you to get manscaped. So you. You've been. You've been. You've been acting up. Okay, we gotta fix it. Code hardlaw. 15% off. Free shipping. Manscaped site wide. Lastly, this episode is brought to you by a.

[Jamie]

That's right.

[Bo]

You knew it was.

[Colin]

You know it. Every morning. Starts with a little bit of one and ends with a little bit of Z, baby.

[Jamie]

Wow.

[Colin]

Because now they've got agz. Wow. It's a melatonin free nighttime drink mix concoction. You pour this little tube, this portable little tube into 16 ounces of cold water or maybe a little milk to put you down.

[Jamie]

Oh, wow.

[Bo]

Tryptophan. Get it going. I got you.

[Colin]

Get it going, man. You go to drinkag1.com hardlore, you're gonna a free frother just for that milk. Because guess what? This comes in chocolate flavor.

[Bo]

Whoa.

[Colin]

And it's delicious. And let me tell you every night.

[Bo]

Let me tell you something. If you're anything like me, Melatonin, bad, bad dreams. I get the Jimmy legs.

[Colin]

It's bad agz. Good, good dreams, regular legs. No Jimmy.

[Bo]

No Jimmy.

[Colin]

So go to drinkagey1.com hardor right now. Try some AJZ. Get your frother and continue listening to this incredible episode. Bye.

[Bo]

After that show, and thank you for that. After that show, how long does it take Jamie and Shade to be like, all right, what are we doing? Let's figure something out, because you and I are working together.

[Jamie]

I mean, first thing was first, which was try not to.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You know what I'm saying?

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Try to pull it together. Try to not. Not have a mental breakdown. Try.

[Colin]

I mean, you should have a mental breakdown in some capacity.

[Bo]

Right.

[Colin]

You know, you should break down to realize what makes you want to not break down and then do that thing that makes sense.

[Jamie]

When you're buried, you're buried. I need a shirt that says that. Am I wrong? Am I wrong? And when you're over, you're over. It's like. It's like. It's like sometimes in life, it's like. Like, I hate. I'm not. I'm trying to think of an example. I'll just say turnstile, because they're over the gods.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

One's ever been. They blow and it's gold. You know what I'm saying? When you're over, you're over, and you're over. When you're buried in. I don't mean even publicly. I just mean you have the magic of Barry. You know, you're. You're. You're. You look left, you're. You look right, you're. You get kicked, you get spit on, you get put down. You know what I mean? So that. That was the time period. The thing is, and what's so important about the band is, like, those boys are my brothers. And there was many conversations that were had amongst us about everything. You know, it was like we. We thought about different. Different ideas and of. Of how to. But in the end, it was like they. Those. Those boys told me. They were like, dude, I'm watching, trying to think about what I say here, but they're like, dude, we got to put it down. For many reasons, we got to put it down. We got to put it down. And I trust those guys with my life. Part of that was Shade was like, dude, let's keep rocking and figure it out. And we had a couple people around us who were, you know, willing to help with that. So we took it down some roads that definitely didn't pan out. At first. We did a lot of, like, producing sessions, but. Yeah, but it did lead us to, like, cool connections and stuff. But we did a lot of. We did some hip hop stuff. I mean, some of that's coming. It's starting to come to fruition. But we just tried. We, like, wanted to continue to be creative and we were trying to figure out what the basis for that was. And we just sat. We were back in the bedroom, straight up back in the room, just experimenting, trying to figure it out, trying to make it to the next lily pad. And the band's manager, a dude named Jason, he was also really down to help us, which was like, inspiring at least to like, you know, try to just, you know, do what he could to try to help us get to that next lily pad and really believed in us and was like, dude, I really think that you're gonna be able to make something happen just because that's what you guys do. And. And you guys are talented. And hearing that when you're down low, yeah, is. Is what you need, you know, you need somebody to be there, you know, So I had Shade as well. And he. Without him, I would. Would. We wouldn't be talking for sure because we would. I wouldn't be doing. I would have been. I would have just checked out from this planet, probably, honestly. So, yeah, just having him and having somebody in. In the struggle with you, it's like, all right, well, here we are back at the bottom of. Of a pit. But I was like. But I just thought back. I'm like, what. What did we do? What we built. We put our head down. We weren't getting adoration galore, you know, we built. We built inch, inch, inch. And the shows got a tiny bit better and the perception got a tiny bit bigger. And that's what we did. And so it's like, okay, well, how, as older men do we apply that to ourselves now? Let's learn, like, from the lessons of what went wrong in some ways and what we built. All the beautiful, amazing things that totally were right and went. Went right. And let's just like, keep. Let's try to build. Let's try to build a town where a very tall house that built up very tall and fell down. It was. Let's go to town, you know, around that. That's wider, that has more diversity of options. Yeah, but it's still our art eventually and, you know, drenched in our. That thing that, you know, are everything that we Love about making art aesthetically and just in terms of purpose and in terms of sweat equity and everything.

[Bo]

You know, you guys were always so innovative and good at problem solving. Something I don't think we even talked about in the last interview and something we haven't talked about. When you guys. When the world shut down on the day of your record release and then you live streamed the show and it looked awesome. And then over lockdown, we're doing the individual Twitch streams where you kind of would each like week by week or however often it was, would like hand off who was doing what that is.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Bo]

So ahead of its time if you really think about it.

[Colin]

You like pioneered the live stream.

[Jamie]

Thank you. It's.

[Bo]

I mean, it's. It's true. Like. And what you guys were able to turn out between you and with Sonny was amazing. I mean, legitimately. I watched it a couple of times because I was so impressed by what you were doing. So when it was kind of announced or whatever that Code Orange as the entity that we knew it was, was done, I knew that you and Shade or you and somebody were going to find a way to turn what you had into the next thing. And I, I did hear, I heard about the production stuff. I heard about some of the stuff you were doing, but now it's led you to the Blood rave stuff. And I would love to know like where did that.

[Jamie]

What the. It is, what's going on? Yeah, no, yeah, I mean, we're still. And. And yeah, I mean, I appreciate you saying that a lot, I think. Yeah. Every again. And Dom has been, you know, Dom pulled himself together like legendary rocker, one of the greatest hall of fame rockers of all time. Literally. He could be. It's insane that there's not like Metallica doesn't call him and it's like be. Be the fifth member. You know what I'm saying? Like, we need like some. We need somebody. He's the greatest. Thank God. But he's been the greatest undrafted ever. But you know, he's had his injuries and stuff. But regardless, so, you know, the same with Joe, building his life and his family, you know, like, so. So for me, yeah, you know, having Shade, you know, we just fucking like you said it was just another problem to solve. I mean, this is the thing. This is what it comes down to. This is life. Life is a problem. Appears you have two options every single time. You push forward in what you're doing or you back off, which is okay too. Or option three, you just fucking quit. You know, those are like the three options. So we did a little bit of backing off, you know, so that we could push forward and create a new lane for ourselves. And I do think something. One of the few things I do really like about myself strongly is the ability to creatively push forward. You know, whatever the circumstances, we're going to figure out a way to enact the things we like and bring them into real life. Whether it's like visuals or like Blood Rave, for instance. Blood Rave, super simple, was just like playing shows back in the day. We're sitting there, Stu from Pittsburgh, who runs a venue, calls me. Is there anything, nowhere to run or you guys would want to play at? And I thought, well, we don't want to play some fucking dry, like, normal shit. Like, it's gonna be weird and awkward as fuck. Yeah. I'm like, what would we. What would we want to be at? I'm like, well, Blade, the Matrix. Yeah, Batman. This is my. You know what I'm saying? So I said, hey, what about this idea? I'm like, let's just call it Blood Rave. One word. There's lots of blood Raves. But I think just the idea of, like, Blood Rave as a Blood Rave, yeah. Nowhere to runs. Blood Wraith, to be exact. You know, I. I felt was one, a way that people would see it and know what I meant, you know, and know, like, what they're walking into. And two, it was like. Like, let's. Let's just experiment and see what performing would be like in a super cool environment. So we got super DIY with it. We built this little thing and then it's been slowly expanding. It's only started in fucking Latin a year ago. And now, you know, we're doing. We got a bunch of cities coming up.

[Colin]

So the Blood Rave was a creative method of just, okay, we want to perform live with this new Nowhere to Run entity. We don't want to just play a show. Let's create a new avenue to play a show and get.

[Jamie]

Yes. Playing just like an electronic show is a. You know what I'm saying, dude? It's like, right? And it's dog. So it's like, instead, we need to build a whole environment, man. And then it was just one thing. I do another. And like, to this day, the Blood Rave thing is me making all the graphics and doing all the booking and booking every artist and booking every dancer and renting every single thing and doing every P and L. And it's Shade and me and Dom going to venues, getting on scaffolds and ladders from 3pm till 10pm, building, playing it, being done at 4 or 3 and leaving the venue at 5:30. You know what I'm saying? It fucking sucks for sure. I see your face. It's not some. It's definitely not twitching style. It's a different. It's a different style of. We're not stopping for Donald's. Yeah, yeah. Which is great. But, you know, what's been happening, you know, we didn't intend. You know, we wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't something that felt like it had some upward momentum and people are excited about and we keep to keep, like crafting these rooms. Like what we have now versus four months ago is way sicker.

[Colin]

It just keeps like glittering and implementing blood in the real blood yet.

[Jamie]

Yeah, we've, we've. We. It's definitely on the docket. It's on the agenda. Um, like I said, kind of when we started, I didn't anticipate it, I guess, being what it is now. So I was thinking, what's a way for people to just get the vibe, you know? And I wasn't even thinking, wasn't thinking about having blood. Now it's like, yeah, I probably gotta have blood. That makes sense. I promise you this, though. It's the like. Dude, it's a sickest environment. It's. It's. The production is. It's diy, but it's sick, you know, it's. It's like something. It's not just like a dance night you walk into. It's this cool hybrid night for, like fucking, you know, kids who go to clubs, kids who go to shows, kids who don't go to anything. The metal element, you know, we play with guitar and vocals and all this stuff, so it's been really fun. And it's one of many things. Things that we're. We've been doing and kind of building our thing around it and inspired us to put music out into, you know, kind of put our faces back to it.

[Colin]

Did you see that thing I posted about blood being vampire food and it being akin to spraying them with nacho cheese or something?

[Bo]

Yeah. Chocolate syrup.

[Jamie]

You post a lot. I see all kinds of stuff.

[Colin]

Would you.

[Jamie]

You're over. Like I said, you're very. You've got what I was saying earlier. The over thing.

[Colin]

Thing.

[Jamie]

He's very. When you're over, you're over. And he's over. He's with Justin Long, he's with Michael. He's with Michael Cera. He's with Carrot Top.

[Colin]

I'm not with Michael. I would love to.

[Jamie]

I'm booking my own fantasy. But he's with CM Punk. He's with. It's like, it used to just be me, you, Taylor.

[Colin]

Listen, I'm just asking for a little bit of nacho cheese at the blood. Right Rave here. Can you. Can you blame me?

[Jamie]

Should we do a cheese drop? A cheese drop would be Give me.

[Colin]

Yo. Give me the cheese rave.

[Jamie]

Cheese rave. I mean. I mean, like, you're so over right now that I did a cheese rave.

[Bo]

People would say, yo, the venue in Milwaukee is called the rave. It's done. Make it a cheese rave.

[Jamie]

There is that. We need to hit Milwaukee, bro.

[Bo]

So wait, Jamie, do you know that we quote you saying over damn near every episode?

[Colin]

It's. It's real. It's part like, it's a big part of the show is over.

[Bo]

On camera, off camera, it doesn't always.

[Jamie]

Sound like over, but.

[Colin]

All right.

[Jamie]

Yeah, you know, it does.

[Colin]

Say it.

[Jamie]

I mean, say over. Over.

[Bo]

Over.

[Jamie]

It's very. It's very over.

[Colin]

Yeah. You're not doing it. There's that and the why.

[Jamie]

Why?

[Colin]

Your. Your why is so.

[Jamie]

No, I don't like that. I don't like why whatsoever. I don't. It's variable offense. That's what I would say. No, 100%. I mean, you might make the wall with that. Honestly. Secret wall. Oh, come on. Oh, is the wall bad? No, the wall's good, but it could be a bad wall. Like, you could be on it, you know, if you want to be on the good wall.

[Bo]

What do we got?

[Jamie]

What's turning me into a very, like, Beetlejuice hard lore person? Like a very, like, Gary the Blank from Howard Stern show.

[Colin]

That's your Beetlejuice J. Dude, that's fine.

[Jamie]

I'm down. Okay, I'll take it.

[Colin]

It Beetlejuice orange.

[Jamie]

No, dude, no, no. I. I'm gonna say this right now. I'd like to say this on the air for my boys back home, and people are gonna fight me on this. You guys ready? I'm about to go. We're good. We're gonna. We're gonna polarize. Okay. Is what I'm doing. The wrestling lingo being a part of our world.

[Bo]

Your fault.

[Jamie]

The way things happen in this. It's not me, but the way things happen in this. In this community, that's very small and it's spread heads. Okay. Some random from somewhere.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Says some to somebody like me. And then I start saying it, and then somebody like Mr. Overhears it. And other Mr. Over bover over here. Here's it. And then all of a sudden it's everywhere. So I would just like to say I feel, I feel a lot of my, my old heads back home here. We're. We're saying gimmick saying over. I think Colin, you would agree with that very early on.

[Colin]

Think about this, think about this. This. The proof is when we say the word over.

[Bo]

We say it like you, we say.

[Colin]

It in your voice, dude.

[Bo]

Everything from like I heard you. I, I literally, I don't remember who it was but you literally talking about a band. We were having a very serious conversation, like a straightforward conversation. And you're like we're not going to put, we're not going to put him over. We're not going to put him over. We're not doing it.

[Jamie]

We're going to bury him.

[Bo]

And it was just like I didn't know about wrestling at the time. Time but every year from gimmick to a shoot.

[Jamie]

When you're buried, you're buried. That's it. No, at the end of the day it's the truth. And when you're over in your heart when you're hard, lover, you're over. And that's really it at this point. You know, you guys could have Michael Jackson's ghost on here and I wouldn't even have a question mark. I'd say is he free? I'd say he's here. It's. I'd say all the ghosts. Chester, everyone could be here.

[Bo]

Jamie, what do we, what do we got on the wall?

[Jamie]

Just. Let's not worry about the wall.

[Colin]

It's right there.

[Jamie]

This was a last minute occurrence. My walls are covered in ideas. I had a hard couple years. I mean you guys get what the I'm saying like so you know I'm, I like making an art. I like. I have a little old movie idea going on back here. Just like I still amount free time. I saw my side chain stuff. I got you know, some collages, some concepts. You know. I'm an art guy. What can I say? An artist. I'm tortured. What can I say?

[Colin]

You really are, man. You've undergone some torture in the last couple years. So the Motives music video.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Is this out to the world now?

[Jamie]

It's coming out by the time you're.

[Colin]

This is up, I'm sure in one week.

[Bo]

It's coming out in one week.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll be okay. Okay. Okay.

[Colin]

So this video is packed full of messages here.

[Jamie]

A lot of cool things going On.

[Colin]

A lot of cool things going on. Lot of references to code Orange.

[Jamie]

Yeah, for sure. Definitely.

[Colin]

Thematically, I mean, not even thematically. They're in there. You got the I am King mask stuff in there. You got someone in a red headed wig playing to an adoring audience.

[Jamie]

Oh, there's a lot. There's all kinds of wigs. There's black, yellow, red. There is. I mean, no, that's not a crib. Brown, black, yellow, red. They got every. Every wig is in there.

[Colin]

Do you want to go into detail about making this video and some of the thematic references in there and what people should take away from it?

[Jamie]

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think, you know, I think we wanted to just. This record we made, it's an ep. It's called what did you do? And it's kind of has a little bit of like a. I guess aesthetically, I would say it has like a noir ish element to it or it's kind of like a mystery element to it. It's very dark. And I feel like, you know, that's how the way I make records, I guess, is I try to express whatever it is that I'm feeling and relate it. Usually maybe it's something to something visual or to a specific genre that like properly reflects that, you know, So I think like the video. The video, yeah. It has a lot of like breadcrumbs and cool thematic continuations. But that. I think a lot of that is because those thematic ideas in the band are me in a lot of ways, you know, and that. That's not saying in like a credit way. It's just like in a literal sense of. It's like. It's stuff that I came up with to reflect things that I'm feeling or to reflect things that I was going through. You know, I wrote the lyrics for the band. You know, it's. No, it's. No, it's.

[Colin]

I mean, I got a Sam Haynes shirt on. Misfits, Sam Hayne, Danzig is all one continuous story, right?

[Jamie]

You know, you see, that's the perfect example.

[Colin]

You're in your Sam era.

[Jamie]

Yeah, sure, sure. So, yeah, I mean, I just felt like just an idea. An idea, you know, sparked and. And it was based on disparate things and experiences we were having over these last couple years in terms of like working with new people and also just our circumstance in general and things. You know, I had been brought back to a level of depression that I just hadn't experienced since the band kind of masked it. And the band was a good. I felt like, the band lifted me out of it. But what I've kind of realized is the band kind of shielded me from it. It gave me this purpose. And when you learn lose your. That purpose, you know, you have to rebuild. And so I think lose the identity.

[Colin]

That comes with that purpose too. And then there's the. There's who am I? And now what do I do?

[Jamie]

Oh, totally. And the video. That's what the video is to me. It's. You know, it's. Those themes are being reflected because, you know, they connect to, you know, where I'm at now. And in the video, I'm kind of like, chasing around this thing trying to figure out, like, what. What are its motives for what. What it is that it's done, you know, And I'm almost like a step back from it. It almost seems to be. Not like, affecting me. It almost feels simulated in some kind of way. And then eventually, you know, that simulation breaks down and we spit out into the. My. My daily life, you know, and I have to come face to face with it. And it's something even uglier, you know, that than what I thought. It's. It's. It's. It's a deeper. It's deeper in my soul. And that's kind of what I wanted, just thematically, the video to represent. And I also just wanted to, like, rock again in. In a video and, like, make a. You know, we love making these kind of videos.

[Colin]

You're great at making videos.

[Bo]

That always happened. The shot.

[Jamie]

Thank you, man.

[Bo]

The shot of the three of you from above where you're all back to back in, like, a triangle, which is very cool. Stuck out. Did you then use this, this new era and this ep? Did you address Code Orange? Did you address the past? Did you use this as a way to kind of bury stuff, like, not even wrestling talk, like. Like, literally bury, like a hatchet?

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Bo]

Did you use it?

[Jamie]

Okay, yeah. No. I mean, that's my life. End of the day. Code Orange is my life. It's been my life since I was a kid, you know, since I was 12. I met these guys, 12, 13. So it's so deep inside my psychs. So I don't know if, like, I'm referencing Cold Orange necessarily as, like, a band in that sense, but there's definitely, like, a lot of the record, not all of it, but the record is fragments of this kind of blurry, dark journey, you know, like the tag we use is like, we are lost in this maze. It's like it just felt you Know, it's pretty on the nose, but it's like we felt like we were in the dark and it was me and him. That's. And we use this flashlight thing, right? It's like we had to. We had to find our way out, you know?

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And that, like, again, we didn't set this Nowhere to Run project up to even make a record. We set it up to work with other people and. But just the more music we made, one, we found out a lot of other people don't want to use our weird music. That's for one Damn. For One Damn Thing two, you know, when we performed, we just felt like, this is sick. Like, I remember the first show me and him did. We're kind of side to side doing our thing. I'm playing npc, we're doing some vocals. By the end of the set, I'm like, doing vocals after that, I'm like, that. We're going back to. I'm doing the vocals.

[Colin]

It's.

[Jamie]

It's. But it's. It's a. It's a hybrid version of that that can mold and shape into different, different, you know, realms. Like, whether it's. We got this. This movie we scored that's coming out next week to some of the film festivals, you know, that. That's nowhere to run. We got this, you know, records that we're producing, we have artists that we're putting out records for. You know, all these things can be nowhere to run. But we thought this would be a cool way to get. Put a head on that body and kind of give it a guiding light forward. And now that we have this Blue Blood Rave thing to express, live in a cool, controlled environment that we, like, love the vibe of, it was like, yeah, let's. Like, let's. Let's put a first ep almost like this. The EP is, I would call it just like the first layer to what could build on top, you know.

[Colin]

Okay, now, does the rest of the records. Does this single sonically represent what the rest of the record sounds like?

[Jamie]

Well, you know how I am, brother. At the end of the day, there's all kinds of going on. But I. I feel like, you know, in terms of musical aesthetic, it's definitely very, very coherent. It's very, for lack of a better word, dark. Like, I was just thinking of movies like Cure by Karasawa, like the Vanishing or something like that. I wanted to make music that made me. Or even like seven or something.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Music that made me feel like that. So what. The genre is less of a There's this blood rabie kind of stuff that I think this song kind of falls into that's kind of thumpy and. But dark and a little cinematic. But then there's also like leans into like hip hop. There. There are two songs that are mostly features where I'm more of a background voice and the songs are being carried by other artists. And then there's a song at the end that feels like veers a little into Code territory and there's heavy guitar and it kind of becomes really. It's heavy and cacophonous. So it. I think it's pretty narrow, like aesthetically. But musical genre wise it's still. It's what I do. You love it or you hate it, I don't fucking know. But it's what I do. It's what I have to do. I'm forced to do it.

[Colin]

The Code Orange trajectory was like kind of less and less of a hardcore band as things went along just naturally as you. As you evolved as an artist. And now this is the first real piece of this new record that is to establish what Nowhere To Run is. And it's very much like not even really metal. It's like pure straight up industrial electronic music with guitars.

[Jamie]

Is this just guitars and. And. Yeah, and there will be more guitars for sure, I think, but there will be more other things too. You know. I mean, a lot of the music I'm listening to, we have new artists, is kind of more. Is even more hybrid. You know, it's like. But it's not quite doing what we're doing but you know, with Code, just your quick point about the hardcore man thing, truly the way I thought of it and I'm sure everybody in the band has their own perception and they. None of those songs could have been written without everybody in the band whatsoever. But from a conceptual point of view, do. When we made like the I Am King record, which was even a shift from the previous record, I really thought the what the world. Not in some like worldwide, but just like what the people around me and what I want to hear and need is a hardcore oriented band of this style. And then the second one and you were like, yeah, okay. Well, you know, to me, to me, you know, it's like. Like it's not even about that necessarily. It's like I'm trying to scratch an itch. And each time, you know, by the time we get to the last one or underneath or whatever, it's like I think what. What's needed is a band that keeps those ethos and keeps a lot of those parts, but is, you know, maybe more of a metal band or maybe more of a rock band. The last one. I really felt like there should be a cool, heavy, dangerous, hardcore, rooted, but crazier like rock band. And it would be cool to try and do that for this record, you know, so that. That's what has guided those decisions. And I'm, you know, I'm a hard. I consider myself a hardcore person, a veteran of the community. But so that's always at the core and the root of the way we operate. And yeah, you know, the music. A lot of the music we listen to.

[Colin]

You mentioned the new bands that you're excited about seeing that are hybrids of all these things you love. Code Orange was. Was that band for. For me and many. Yeah, we're just like seeing it the first time was like, oh yeah, this is it. Any perception I had is gone. I'm immediately a fan.

[Jamie]

That's awesome.

[Colin]

What are some of those recent bands that did that for you?

[Jamie]

I think I would like to find more and you guys can help me. Actual bands. Because I guess when I think about some of the things that I'm drawing from. Yeah currently it's not really bands. Even though that's not how I want to be at all. I fucking love. I. I love love in bands. You know, I think. And there's a lot of like sick rock bands in the metal like space. I haven't found a ton of like hybrid things in the way that I like. I guess like right now I'm sure you guys could have have some. But just like in terms of like. I don't know, like. I really like what like Jane Remover doing or like even like, like Frost Children or even like still like Machine Girl or. I. I think a lot of that stuff is. Is killer. I think there's a ton of killer hardcore bands that are amazing. I don't think most of them are really, which is good. I great trying to like Hybrid too much together outside of like, what they seem to do is hybrid. An aesthetic with the same kind of. But the music doesn't necessarily like, reflect that, you know. But Hard Chorus seems to be like as good as it's as good as it's ever been. You know, there's a lot of sick heavy bands. Like Missing Link is a great band. I like that band. Final Resting Place.

[Colin]

New World. Man, I haven't heard Innovate. Oh, man.

[Bo]

Crazy.

[Colin]

You're gonna have crazy A blast.

[Jamie]

Oh, my buddies. I want to shout out from Pittsburgh Called Pain Clinic. They're like a local band, but just for people who eat wings and like that basically.

[Colin]

Can you tell me about what, what? Pittsburgh Hardcore.

[Jamie]

In a good way?

[Colin]

2025. No, that's good to me. That's. I took that as complimentary. Tell me about Pittsburgh hardcore in, in.

[Jamie]

2025, you know, it seems it's fucking great. Honestly. Every time I go to a show, it's like the biggest show I've ever seen in my life. It's, it's, it's. I don't know if it's like that everywhere, but it's huge right now. It's bigger than ever, honestly. Pain Clinic. Who are. My, like my buddy Tyler is like one of my best friends. You met him before. He's like just been a hardcore kid forever. And my, you know, if my jiu jitsu coach is in the band. Oh, it's like all our buddies, they seem to be like a true cornerstone of our scene. The shows that they play are insane. There's touring bands coming through here all the time that are like having insane shows. I'm trying to think of even who, what shows. I just add those. That was, I don't remember. But anyway, they have a place called Preserving Underground that are. Preserving. I guess it's just what it's called now. But that's just created a whole new life squad of the hardcore scene. And I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I'm a goddamn card carrying member necessarily. I'm not there every Friday, Saturday. I got a lot going on. I'm getting older. You know, movies now, you know, trying to, to do my thing. But when I'm there, I love it. I think it's great. I mean in terms of like hybrid parkour bands. Like who? You tell me, like who is there that's kind of doing that, like going for that. There was Vane, of course, who I always championed and brought out very early on and you know, and remain close with those guys that I felt like we're kind of walking down that path. But you inform me, you guys are the scholars.

[Bo]

I don't know if there's doing like.

[Colin]

Electronic hard music or I don't know.

[Jamie]

Just mixing together, like, I don't know, mixing, mixing.

[Colin]

I'm not much of a fusion guy, you know.

[Bo]

Yeah, yeah. But also I just think, you know, when, and I mean this, respectively, when, when the two bigger bands who were doing that kind of thing are suddenly not doing that anymore. You guys in vain. There's, you know, I think there's A natural shift where people are kind of almost going back to basics musically. So I don't. I think that there's not like a rush to really fill that void. I don't think the fans called for it.

[Jamie]

They said, go back to basics. I saw it every day.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Every comment they said, stop what you're doing now. I have a disease.

[Colin]

You guys are a great example of that. And now the Flesh Water heads are out there being like, we gotta bring back.

[Bo]

Yeah, we need vein.

[Colin]

But yeah, not understanding that they kill killed Vain by not supporting that second lp. You killed him. You did that.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's true. I mean, I don't know if that's true, but my sister did the artwork for that album, by the way. We were. We were super deep in on that one, man.

[Colin]

People didn't back it because it wasn't exactly the same as the first one. You killed them.

[Jamie]

The first song's Hard as.

[Bo]

There's a band called Harm's Way that does some cool electronic stuff.

[Colin]

Oh, you really do, man.

[Jamie]

Totally.

[Colin]

You did it real early too.

[Bo]

I think it's cool.

[Jamie]

Way early. I mean, they were like for absolutely. Well, I mean, it depends. You know, there's some kid who's gonna watch this who like watch goes to.

[Bo]

Like, you know, we've never leaned in the way that you guys did or the way that Vayne did.

[Jamie]

That's not true. No, no, no. What I was about to say was not that at all, actually. I was gonna say that. I was gonna say I think you're the first wave of it. But then there's gonna be some kid who likes some band that we don't even know what the it is that like comments on your guys's that's gonna say like, no, this Warp tour banded it or whatever to me, you know what I'm saying? I see it in the lists when people. I'm like, good Lord. But like, it's insane. But to me, to me, you guys a hundred percent will want. See to the first bands we looked at peppering all that in and it made us want to totally try to go down that path. I mean, I love you guys for that the second I heard you because you combined the two things that I love, which is like hard, really hard shit. One, but two, this mechanical industrial, whatever you want to call it, like a filmy oriented, like dark, gritty, grimy thing that I'm like so attracted to. But yeah, you guys have always been one of my favorites and absolutely the OGs of that.

[Bo]

Just wanted to put us over a little bit.

[Jamie]

So we did it in a different way. But we definitely saw that and that was an important, totally important, hugely important part of our journey doing that. So you should definitely get props for that. Totally first on all that. Thank you.

[Bo]

I did not mean whoever's before to put us.

[Jamie]

God, whatever they're called long ass names. I don't know who they are.

[Bo]

Yeah. I mean even still like, you know, full of hell still out there. Jarhead fertilizer is. Is doing. And they do a definite kind of hybrid thing. But yeah, I don't. I don't know of many in the. The vein of Vein and code. Yeah, that's. That's a. That's an interesting one.

[Jamie]

I would. I think I will definitely start a band at some point. Like that is kind of just. And this is just for me, you know, just the hard elements of that still with some of that stuff sprinkled in lightly. Because I do go to these shows. I never thought, you know, this is what happens to us all. It's sad the life cycle. But when I'm doing the band, I never thought, oh, I would do a different. And I'm like, this is my band. That's it. You know.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Now when I go to the shows I'm like. Like it would hit like me. I need Dom. I need Dom. I'm not. I've decided I won't do it without Dom. But. But if I could get Dom, like if Dom could do it, he's. His hands are still getting to the point to play like metal. Which is why he can play with us because it's more open chords and stuff. It's like, you know, more industrial oriented. But if he can get to that point. Just a hard ass kind of Pittsburgh for lack of a better term, I guess beat downish thing.

[Colin]

I just, I'm glad that you are. I hope that you're aware of People want want. People want that from you. You know. I think you, you. Your innovation in mosh science defined a small generation in hardcore. You know.

[Bo]

It's definitely true. The commodity of breakdowns. It's never been more valuable.

[Colin]

It's so valuable. And, and, and we had a conversation when you put out the two song thing with Corey Taylor on it.

[Bo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

Where I was like, dude, these songs are nuts. The parts are so hard. And you were like, really? I wrote these in five minutes.

[Jamie]

It was written quick. That shit was written fast. We all wrote them. But they were yeah, written fast.

[Colin]

Yeah, but you, I know you got that in you. You got Pit in you. And I feel like you. There's a. There's a part of your mind where you're like, I don't want to do that. It's too easy.

[Jamie]

It's not. I mean there's that, but it's more just. I don't feel okay. Look at it this way.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And this is, this is actually a very good example. You know, there are people that. That will say that we're our band or whatever was like trying to sell out and all this stuff. I'm a smart guy. If my goal was to really sell out, then what we would have done about three years ago when all. Everybody who was doing Dumbass Breakdowns, some of which are good, some of which are bad, you know, was blowing up and we would have said, okay, we could do this. Yeah, we could do that for a record, you know. But that doesn't. At the time, that didn't scratch the itch of what I thought it needed to be. Just. Just, you know, I don't know, maybe the word I feel is like spiritually or something. Like we weren't trying to fight against it, but it's just like it's not the purpose that it felt called to. Even though, again, I will fight. And there's some hard ass pits, some very hard pits that are a lot harder than a lot of the people. People say is hard to me, sure. Personally. But regardless, yes, that would be fun. And I would do it super hard. Super. Just evil eventually.

[Colin]

But you got stuff to do for now.

[Jamie]

We got it.

[Colin]

We're.

[Jamie]

We're on a path.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

How was working with Billy Corgan?

[Colin]

Sick.

[Jamie]

He's cool. I've been to his crib as well, which is insane.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Well, we need to go to his crib. Both of us here. Have a little chat with him. Yeah, dude. Yeah.

[Colin]

He's got an Erewhon smoothie right now. I gotta try.

[Bo]

Oh, it looks awesome. I saw that actually.

[Jamie]

I saw that too.

[Colin]

So I'll put the review in right here. It's. It's quite bad. It tastes like dirt and mud. It's geological in a way. I would say it tastes similar to the way an open ass smells. It's no good. It's burnt and frozen somehow. Impossible.

[Jamie]

It's dark.

[Bo]

That sounds really good. So, yeah, I'm. I. I've seen him in interviews. I've heard him talk before. I like how he talks about music. I don't.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Bo]

I'm not a huge Pumpkins fan. I think they got a couple tracks for sure, but I like how he talks and thinks about music. So. Yeah. What was. What was working with him?

[Jamie]

Like? It was cool, man. Yeah, they definitely were, like, an influence on the above, for sure. Like, heavily, you know, So I feel like it was a natural kinship. I think that. Yeah, he has a great way of, like, breaking things down.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Teaching you things. I was writing down a lot of what he would say. I have, like, notebooks from. From, like, our first. When we were more like before we were kind of friends, and it was more like professional vibes, you know, like, just trying to, like, take in as much information as possible. But more than anything, dude, he was just insanely encouraging. He was just like, dude, you guys are sick. You know, that was pretty much his main thing. He's like, this is sick. You guys are insane. And that was pretty much it. I mean, and he helped us. He helped us with little bits and bobs of, like, crafting some of the songs. And he was. I was like, hey, would you record this thing? While we were working together? He was like, okay, don't just put it on the record. At least let me redo it. And I was like, okay. And then we just put it on the record. You know what I'm saying? So he wasn't gonna redo that shit. He's busy.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

At the same time, do you see him then put the belt on Tyrus and wonder, like, what have I done?

[Jamie]

I mean, Tyrus is a big man in a big man's world. What can we say? I don't really know too much about his. About Tyrus. I mean, that's more your department, but I'm not really. I'm not in those feds, you know, and I don't really know anything about that.

[Bo]

Was. Is that him in. Is he in the music video?

[Colin]

No, that's you.

[Bo]

Is Billy actually in the music video? Or is that as. Is that you?

[Jamie]

Colin's watching a lot of Fox with Tyrus. I feel like, get ready for the grillings. Learning from Tucker. Learning from Tucker. Geraldo, as we discussed, he was texting me very. Like, he's gonna har. He was like, I'm gonna have to Geraldo you. I'm like, all right, man.

[Colin]

You brought up a girl, though.

[Jamie]

Only not only known you for fucking how long? You're fucking corner my. All right.

[Colin]

This has been. This has been an. The easiest 93 minutes imaginable, right?

[Jamie]

I'm kidding. I don't know why I put the fucking belt on Tyrus. All I know is they got some.

[Colin]

They got.

[Jamie]

They Got some. They got some talent over there, that's for sure. And that's all I know about, about the NWA. It's a great organization.

[Colin]

I like the 10 pounds, pounds of gold belt.

[Jamie]

I like the belt. I like everything he does.

[Colin]

I think the NWA belt is maybe the most overrated of all time.

[Bo]

Oh, really? Yeah, I liked it.

[Colin]

I always liked the strap is this thick.

[Bo]

I think it looks badass.

[Colin]

It's ugly to me.

[Bo]

Huh?

[Colin]

The prestige is, yes, of course, obviously beautiful. But then they. They've. The big gold came after.

[Bo]

Yeah. Come on. You're not beating that.

[Colin]

Oh, my God.

[Bo]

Nothing beats that.

[Jamie]

You're more of like a fucking, like, barnyard wrestling kind of guy or something, huh? Some CZW or something.

[Colin]

Me?

[Jamie]

What do you fuck with?

[Colin]

Yeah, no, I'm not a CZW guy.

[Jamie]

CZW is actually awesome.

[Colin]

Fmw.

[Jamie]

That shit's hard too.

[Colin]

That's cool, because that's. That's what CZW thinks it's doing.

[Bo]

You know, Jamie, as a. As an artist and a wrestling head, give us your top four belts. Just the designs.

[Jamie]

Colin, what's your experience with AEW's wrestling's music department?

[Colin]

I haven't had much of one with the actual music department.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Haven't had much of an experience with them. They put me in the. Still to this day.

[Jamie]

There we go. Let's fucking get serious, for God's sake. Probably classic IC hardcore belt from the late 90s, early 2000s.

[Colin]

Classic. I see white. White strap.

[Bo]

White strap.

[Jamie]

No, white strap's awesome, dude.

[Bo]

The purple is also very sick.

[Jamie]

And the blue, I feel like there was a hard, like, X Division belt at one point that I thought division.

[Colin]

Belt was so sick when AJ Styles was king of the X Division.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And then I'll go, I like the. I don't know if they've changed it, but, like the original. Aw. Like, Omega's got it, like belt, which might be the same thing. I think that's a good. Insanely hard as well.

[Bo]

Looks great.

[Jamie]

But anyway, why don't we talk? Let's. Let's air our grievances of the all elite. What happened to the Wardlow track? Where is it and where did it go?

[Colin]

I. You know, from. From what I heard, somebody higher up didn't like it. Not. Not an executive. One of the boys who has a little bit of say not something along the line said something along the lines of, this ain't good.

[Jamie]

Bury the. Bury the fucking boys.

[Colin]

He said. He said, this ain't good. You got to go back to the old one.

[Bo]

Well, it was weird because they did yours.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And it was working, in my opinion. Yeah. I think it was. It was getting over.

[Colin]

I worked hand in hand with the man.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

To craft exactly what he wanted.

[Jamie]

Then you did. Yeah. I remember what the whole deal was.

[Bo]

After, like, a month or so. They did, like, a hybrid one. One where they, like, kind of.

[Colin]

They went. They. They chopped and they screwed my intro. Didn't talk to me about it. Which in no other artistic world can you just do that.

[Bo]

They do.

[Colin]

Yeah. But I signed it away. I gave.

[Bo]

Yeah, you gave it away.

[Colin]

What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do?

[Jamie]

Yeah, they for. They force you to sign that away. They're like. You know what I'm saying? They. They put the gun on you to. I know. The experience.

[Colin]

They don't own it, though. At least I own. Own it, you know.

[Jamie]

Well, there you go. I mean, the Wardlow or all of them.

[Colin]

I own all of them.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

I get about.

[Jamie]

That's hard.

[Colin]

400 bucks a year from those things, you know.

[Jamie]

I feel that. 100. I feel that.

[Colin]

I mean, I. I'm retired, though. I'm fully retired from the wrestling game. I've said this on back. No, I will never be back unless. Unless Brody specifically, specifically requested me to do something for him. I've told him that I was asked to do some others said no.

[Bo]

Wow.

[Colin]

I'm retired. I think it's an industry built on music, where music is ingrained in some of the biggest moments ever that doesn't value music.

[Bo]

Interesting.

[Jamie]

They really do. I agree there, brother.

[Bo]

Especially. What's the fucking. The production company in WWE. What's. What's that?

[Colin]

Oh, CFOs.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Geniuses.

[Bo]

Geniuses.

[Jamie]

They're awesome.

[Colin]

No, legit brilliant.

[Jamie]

Now it's. Now it's Death Rebel.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

That's the one I was thinking about.

[Colin]

That's none of my business.

[Jamie]

Shout out to deaf Rebel. I mean, he's there.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

He's got a job. Better than I can say.

[Colin]

Yeah, No, I mean, same.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's there.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

I mean, I'm sure there's some good. There are some Death Rebel ones. Did he do Roman?

[Colin]

I don't think he did Roman.

[Jamie]

Wow.

[Colin]

And the Roman one is great.

[Bo]

It is good.

[Colin]

It's the succession theme.

[Jamie]

But I've been. I've been one tear down Roman coming out to the theme. I've had a tear down my face to that song multiple times.

[Colin]

You heard it and you cried.

[Jamie]

It was just a big moment. You're in the building. I was there. I was. I was in the building for. For Cody Roman. I was. I've been in. I've been there many times, you know, and it's a great feeling when that song hits. It's one of the best feelings you can get better than. Better than anything, honestly. Top three feelings.

[Colin]

Do you have. Do you have much of a relationship with WWE today?

[Jamie]

I'm not, no. I mean, I got to meet Triple H a bunch of times, which was awesome. The last Bray thing, things kind of changed a little bit. He passed away. You know, they asked to use the song for his brother, which I was completely down with. Of course we did that. We did the thing for. For Cross. I know that he was pitching that, and they didn't want to do that, so, you know. But the door is always open, for sure. I love wrestling, and for the most part, we had a really good experience with all that stuff. I mean, I got to meet, like, dude, I'm just some literal, actual freak, literally, as Joe Hardcore said a gummo. I got to sit in the ring with Triple H. I stood shoulder to shoulder with Stone Cold Steve Austin. Well shot shoulder to shoulder, but he was, like, right there. And I was, like, here. You know, like, dude, we. We chased John Cena around one time around the arena. We were in, like, the Lesnar, their locker room, like, the day before. He was there. And we've done it all. I mean, I got to have. Dude, when I was a kid, this was, like, my obsession. You know, that dream.

[Colin]

That dream is fulfilled as far as you're concerned.

[Jamie]

And now I'm gonna walk through a haunted house for my good buddy.

[Colin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jamie]

And my music's playing half the time, and, like, I got to go there and see them building it with my dad.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And it's like my dad took, you know, took me to, like, my first wrestling show. Like, I mean, it's so. You can't hate it all. We had a great experience. It would be sweet. I feel like we could write some great themes, I mean, especially for, like, spooky characters, you know, Dude, I'm the guy. I mean, you're the guy as well, but I'm the guy, and we could fight for the spot, but I'm the guy as well. I don't want the guy. You can have it, but, you know, but at the end of the day, they don't want us, so it's all good. Works out. They got Rebel.

[Colin]

It is what it is.

[Jamie]

And the aw's got, like, Jumanji or.

[Colin]

Somebody who's Very nice guy. The Mikey Ruckus. I don't think I could do what he does.

[Jamie]

Mikey Ruckus. Hard. I wasn't. Let's. There's. Here's one theme that I'll get ready to for shows. Not a theme you're gonna like. You're gonna bury it. Of course.

[Colin]

This is how.

[Jamie]

This is a theme that you're gonna bury. And this is why, like, here's the thing. When you send Colin music, I'm not.

[Colin]

Going to bury any themes. Let me finish.

[Jamie]

Let me finish. When you send Colin music, Collins have great opinions. There's no way around it. But for me and Colin, this is where things get confusing. There's an area in which we do not intersect. So you have to figure out from his opinion, is this an opinion? 90% of the time you need to listen to that opinion. 10%, 20%. It's like. Like, we just don't like the same thing. Here's.

[Colin]

There's. There's sometimes where I hear something and I go, I don't like this. It's going to be huge.

[Jamie]

Ah, there you go. I don't know what's. I have no huge radar. I'm. That's where you're much better than me. I'm very bad with that.

[Bo]

But what's the thing.

[Jamie]

The Kenny Omega battle cry thing.

[Colin]

This is a battle cry.

[Bo]

Awesome.

[Colin]

I. I do like that one. But his. His new Japan 1. Wig and angel thing. That one.

[Jamie]

It rules. Well, imagine, like, the mentally broken state you have to be in to be me about to go out to open for slipknot in front of 40 people because no one's there in a hot leather jacket and leather pants listening to Kenny Omega's battle cry. Like, on one knee, like, punching yourself in the head. Because that's my reality and that's what I was doing. And I had out when I had out there. I thought I was Kenny at the end of the day, but I wasn't.

[Colin]

You needed the battle cry, dude.

[Jamie]

It's an unbelievable song. It gives me chills just thinking.

[Bo]

Great song.

[Colin]

Respect. So Last year was 10 years of I am king. Have you thought. Okay, did you revisit it in retrospect?

[Jamie]

No, I. Cleaning. Throw it on. Like, just sit in my room and, like, put the lights green and throw it on. Not some pervert.

[Colin]

I'm not saying Goldman's nasty forehead and. And listen to the record and listen to what you've done and reminisce.

[Jamie]

I'm not a big reminiscer. Even though I Always hated when artists I like, weren't reminiscers. So I get it.

[Bo]

Yeah. Isn't that funny?

[Jamie]

But I love. But let me change it, though. I love the records. I love all the records. I love the first record before I Am King. I love all the records. They're awesome.

[Colin]

Awesome.

[Jamie]

I will gladly rock some of those tracks. We've been asked to play I Am King before by, like, a festival, and I kind of wanted to tell them. I'm like, like, half the record. You. Nobody's gonna know what the it is. It's like a weird record.

[Colin]

It's. It's all about the poster, dude.

[Jamie]

I know, but that doesn't work, brother. That's not gonna work for me, brother. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, we can do greatest hits, but, like, I'm not gonna play track 11. Like, it's gonna be over.

[Bo]

Do.

[Colin]

You can do. You can do what? Hate Breed bands will do the record and then play the hits.

[Bo]

You know, Hate Breed does perseverance, where they play less than half of the songs and then they do the hits.

[Jamie]

You know, that's. That's true. That's awesome. But. But here's the thing about me is that I it to an embarrassing point, to a point that could definitely be perceived as, like, narcissistic. I really do believe in myself, and I really do believe that I have some things I really want to and will achieve. And. And I think that the time to reminisce will absolutely be there. I just really feel that there's some things I want to achieve before doing that. But I love the record. I'll throw it on for you. Pour one out.

[Colin]

Yeah, let me know. Let me know. Pour one out, working man, etc. And let me know how it affects you today. I want to know about what you feel. Obviously, everybody is always growing. We're always learning. We always need to strive to something. But you have achieved so much. What is it that you feel you haven't achieved that you need to bust your ass to do so much?

[Jamie]

And I think you're gonna see a lot of it not too. Not too far away, you know, and it's. It's not really like, in terms of, like, success. I think there was a point in life where obviously for all of us, but definitely for me, that was like a social driving factor. And it's still. I still have that, but, like, more so. It's like, I just. Dude, this is one again. This is one thing that. This is what gets me through life. But, like, I really do have a vision for how I see my life artistically and just period, like, playing out. And there's just a lot more on that list. I really feel like on that list, what I've scratched is very, very small. And. And you know, that doesn't mean that I'm not insanely. I can't believe I honestly know bullshit again. And every kid I ever met at a code show knows this. It's like, it means the fucking world to me that people liked the band, cared about the band, knew about the band, that you guys, like, I used to see guys like you and be like, oh, man, they're fucking. They're all friends that are bands and they're cool and like, I'm not that. And, you know, this is how I've always felt my whole life. But I'm at a point where, you know, I think what drives me every day is to just keep pushing forward and finding new goals. And I've established some of those over the last couple years. And, you know, I've now just planting some of the kind of seeds for those things, and I'd like to try to water them and bring them to fruition. And if it's. If none of it works out and everybody's laughing at me or nobody gives a fuck, or it gets zero views, I've done it. I've been there. I've been laughed at. Let me cut a promo. I've been counted out, you know, so have you, brother. I've been on the bottom, I've been in the middle. And at the end of the day. At the end of the day, it's. It is what the it is. I'm just some. Some dude from. Some gummo guy from Pittsburgh with a couple. A couple good buddies who've really are brothers and stuck together. And I feel like if we have our heads down and we're working and we're. And we're out, you know, pacing ourselves, we're gonna achieve that. You know, I'm not trying to sound like Goggins or some, but you know what I mean? We're gonna achieve. We can do a lot. There's a lot of time, and I have a lot of creativity. I. Every day I feel so much creativity to the point where it. Like it ruins my life. You know what I mean? Like, I can't stop thinking, creating and saying, talking, saying dumb like on here. But, you know, like. Like I just got to keep going down that path and I've built a new little playground for it. It Took me a year or two to kind of set up a framework for it that makes sense to me. And now I have that framework. And now I hope you will start to see the little pieces of that framework begin to grow. And we'll see what happens.

[Colin]

Excellently said.

[Bo]

That's a promo.

[Colin]

Fantastic promo. I loved it.

[Jamie]

Put me on tv. Put me on TV Wednesday. That's it.

[Colin]

You'll be on Thursday.

[Jamie]

I'd like to be on Dynamite as well.

[Colin]

I can't. I got nothing to do with me.

[Jamie]

So many show, Tony. But yeah, I feel you.

[Colin]

Can you tell me about the movies, Gordon?

[Jamie]

Yes, dude, it's super, dude, we gotta get. When that movie fucking starts going. We gotta get that kid on with you guys because he's such a huge fan of you guys too. And he would be like. He's be more excited to like, do this than to do like a lot of the shit we would want to do, you know, so. But yeah, yeah, it's a. It's a flick called Violence. Basically, like, when this was all going down, I had these messages from this kid that I barely saw, right. Or asked me about this movie. Message, message. And then I see one that comes in at an opportune time. It's like, this movie's happening. These are the people in it. I recognize a couple of them. I just seen the latest Halloween movie, which I actually loved that everyone buries and says the worst of all time. I thought it was unbelievable. I love it. Yes. That's just me. So there's a hive of us. Other movies I like.

[Colin]

You love Matrix 4.

[Jamie]

Matrix 4. All three of those. Those are probably my hall of fame most. And I could give you a lot of reasons for that. We talked Matrix four.

[Colin]

We did this for hours.

[Jamie]

Did you. Did you learn anything? Yeah.

[Colin]

About you.

[Jamie]

Matrix 4 is. Matrix 4 is very above.

[Colin]

It's adventure.

[Jamie]

Yeah, no, it's very the above.

[Colin]

It is.

[Jamie]

Anyways, so, yes. To circle back. So, yeah, I just seen a movie. I thought the kid was great and a couple other shows and stuff. So I was like, oh, this has like actual actors in it. I should talk to this dude. It just so happened that Shade and I, in the aftermath of the code stuff had worked for like a month, just, I guess aimlessly. But just something we felt on like a demo pack for film scoring. Take ripping scenes off YouTube scoring. And we made all these themes for fake ideas and characters. And it took. You know, we had this pack, we had sent it to this agent and he decided, this agent that we really liked who does A lot of our favorite artists like Reznor and Nick Cave and Hans Zimmern. And he was down to meet with us. So we flew out there, meet with him that same fucking day. I see this message from this kid. And so we get on Zoom. Me, him and this producer, they tell me what the deal is. Again, we want you to score, but we more importantly want you to do all the music in the movie. Like there's a fake punk band. We want all the punk music, any sound alikes and the full score. I'm like, this is what we're fucking born to do, baby. Wow. So. So we had the meeting, the meeting went good, but then at the end I'm like, hey, brother, we got this movie already. And that got us in there, you know what I mean? So we ended up doing. Putting this thing together. And this kid's awesome, man. It's kind of like this. It's like a little bit like repo manny, 80s warriors punk kind of thriller. It's indie, but it's got some of those kind of extra horror, terrifying extra elements to it as well. But we play a B. I'm in the movie. We play a ban. I have a line. Would you like to hear it?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Take two. Action.

[Jamie]

You wow. And then.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And I say something. I say some other thing as well, but some. So we play a bunch of songs in it. We're in it like a ton. It's sick. And yeah, it's just a sick punk. Through it stars Rowan Campbell, who was in Halloween Ends. He's in that movie the Monkey and he's been in a lot of awesome.

[Colin]

Oh, is he the new Michael?

[Jamie]

And it. He was the new Michael, yes. Wow.

[Bo]

Is he big.

[Colin]

How is he? Have you spoken to him?

[Jamie]

What's the wow? I mean, I wonder. A lot of different kinds of movies as well. I mean, what can we say know?

[Colin]

They're all dope. I wonder how. How he's dealing with the. The reception to Halloween Ends. Because like he. He did great considering the cards he was dealt.

[Jamie]

You know, Halloween Ends Fucking rules. It's a. It's a complete subversion piece that only the. Only the last 15 minutes of Halloween Ends aren't good. The Halloween Ends is. Is exactly what needed to happen happened. Halloween ended. You understand?

[Colin]

The. The evil takes a new shape.

[Jamie]

And I understand. And if they would have went all the way with it. Double, triple overtime. Yes, I think it would have been even better. But like, I thought that was very unexpected. I found the characters engaging. I thought it was like, the romance story was endearing. It was a little cheesy, but in like a cool, like, on the nose kind of way. It's a certain sensibility. There's a hive of us ends. Head heads. And, yeah, I think. And. And I think Rowan's doing great. He's. He's. He's absolutely. He's great. He's. He's a kill. He was great in the Monkey. He's just a great dude overall. So, yeah, dudes gave us an opportunity. We also ended up becoming part of the editing team of the movie, which is a whole other story. So we helped edit the movie as well. And so we're just all in on this thing. And it was a blast. You know, it's just that sometimes somebody just gives you opportunity when you're like. Like, I want to really embrace something. And it was like months of being deep in this thing, and it was a awesome time. I'm really stoked on the soundtrack and the score and everything. I think. I think you guys will dig it.

[Colin]

Amazing that. So that was just the perfect timing.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it really was. It was one of those little beams of light and a lot of darkness that kept us going because we were like, fuck. Like. Because we were talking to a lot of people about trying to score a movie and everybody wants to do it. This is why we did the pack, because I was like, we need to show people that we're serious. Like, this is real shit. Like, every band person in the world wants to do this. Everyone has a fantasy of doing it, but doesn't really understand what it entails. You know, so much that it's a lot. And like, that dude was just, like, a fan of us. He heard me on the Josta show show saying I wanted to score movie. And so he wrote this movie and got it financed and was thinking of us. And he told me when he was pitching and he told people that our band was scoring it, like, before we ever met. So he was like. And there's this band, Code Orange. They're scoring the movie just was like, making shit up.

[Bo]

So that's old.

[Jamie]

Yes, dude. He's become one of my best friends, too. He was fucking at my wedding. I love this kid. His name's Connor.

[Colin]

But by the way, congrats.

[Bo]

Congrats, dude.

[Jamie]

He loves you guys. He loves fans, too. Oh, thank you, man.

[Colin]

Of course.

[Jamie]

I'm a stay.

[Colin]

Mr. Morgan. Got a nice ring to it.

[Jamie]

We're married.

[Colin]

I love it. Yes. Can you tell me, you know, there's. There's Only so many places to go from here. I want to hear your four favorite hardcore records of all time.

[Jamie]

All right, I got a little notes up.

[Bo]

They're getting the shovels out, dude.

[Jamie]

They're ready to bury. Can I say what you say?

[Bo]

I said the shovels are out. The comments are ready to bury.

[Jamie]

Dude, I've seen this. Let me just say this.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

A lot of opinions I disagree with. But anyway.

[Colin]

Well said.

[Jamie]

All right, well, I would like to start with something similar, but different. Different.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Jamie]

Okay. I would like to tell you guys of your two bands, what parts. What are my favorite mosh parts?

[Colin]

Oh, okay.

[Jamie]

And Harm's Way. Yes. Before we do. We can do albums as well. Here's what I want to say. I was going through the Rolodex of the mind. I'm gonna go. We got Harm's Way. I'm gonna go with the scrambled intro, of course. Right, right. And I'm gonna go with Infestation. The end part of that song is insane.

[Colin]

Brutes.

[Jamie]

I'm going with that. That song. That shit's hard. Now I'm gonna go twitching. I wrote this down. I'm gonna go. The end of gaining purpose.

[Bo]

Oh.

[Jamie]

And I'm gonna go to the beginning of feed your disease.

[Colin]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie]

And that's what I'm gonna. I'm gonna leave it there. That's classic, though. But the end of gaining Purpose. That shit's hard.

[Colin]

Hard.

[Jamie]

Every. Pretty much, though. Twitching and Harms is a lot. A lot. A lot of hard stuff between us all. And a lot of. There's a lot of Colin being very romantic kind of stuff as well.

[Colin]

Gotta get it out somewhere, you know?

[Jamie]

Gotta get it out. That's for damn sure.

[Colin]

Tell me about your favorite hardcore records.

[Jamie]

Okay, let's go. I'll go Buried alive. Death of your perfect world.

[Bo]

Great. Classic.

[Jamie]

I'll go haybreed. Perseverance. Great.

[Colin]

Love it.

[Jamie]

And I'm gonna go to local because I think it'd be. It's cool. It's kind of Shine Light and it's true. But I'm gonna go Built upon frustration. Resurrected. Resurrected, which is a hard record, a very hard record. And I'm gonna go. Lesser known, but probably my actual favorite band in reality. No. Which is Enemy Mind. And the record is called Killer Beef and only came out a couple years ago. Wow. It's one of the. It's the hardest. It makes me not even like I listen to other. Like, it's just not. It's like. It's like horror. You know what I mean? Like You, I've seen too much. This guy's 7 foot tall who's in the army. He used to. I'm not gonna say other, but. But he's named after a neighborhood. And he is the hardest frontman who ever existed. He writes like spiritual fucking fight poetry. That's all I can really say. I mean the lyrics are just. It's just like about fucking people up, but in the greatest way possible. And that's a hard thing to do. Am I right?

[Colin]

I mean, it's real. It's real. And many modern hard bands fans have forgotten how important that is.

[Jamie]

They've all forgotten. But yes, they can't. And I'll tell you what, Enemy mind, man, we need somebody like that. That's what I'm saying. Like somebody do something like that. I don't know if that's y'. All. You guys know about them.

[Bo]

You know, I'll check them out, bro.

[Jamie]

My man, I'll check them out. This ain't some local yonko. This is like.

[Colin]

This is certified fresh.

[Jamie]

Protect yourself at all times.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You know what I'm saying?

[Bo]

Yeah, sure.

[Jamie]

Protect yourself at all times. Sure. That's all I have to say. They also have another band called the Projects that's like my sickest of all time. But they never really played the Projects.

[Colin]

Do more than the one record.

[Jamie]

No. It's just the craziest record you ever heard, right?

[Bo]

Wow.

[Jamie]

Yeah, dude, it's. It's. It's like inspired. It inspires me to this day, dude. It inspires me to this day. It's never, it can never be recreated. It's like I can't even believe it. If I was gonna do a band that would definitely inspire it for sure. Another band. Because I, I like stat. Shit's just so. You can't. You can't. You can't beat him. Yeah, I agree.

[Colin]

Well, Jamie, what a great time we've had today. I thank you so much for joining us. I feel like. I feel like we learned a lot. The people learned a lot.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

We got into your mind.

[Bo]

We definitely want to thank you for your honesty.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

You know, I know some of that. Some of that shit's not comfortable to talk about.

[Jamie]

You know, I'm okay with it. I'm. We're here, we're living where we have to be in our skin. We have to be strong. And that's. And that's. That's it. And I just want to say real quick in a non derogatory way to anybody, but I just want to say this. Dom Joe, those are my boys. I know we're not doing a. You know, Dom's playing with us a little bit. I just want to shout those guys out because they've been there for me so fucking hard over these last couple years. And yeah, shout out to them fucking anchors and backbones of my life. And shout out to Joe's baby.

[Bo]

Oh, yeah.

[Colin]

Shout out to Joe's baby. I hope that the CTE he did not carry on.

[Jamie]

He's withered and defeated, that's for damn sure. I mean, his. His mind died and the new mind arose very like alien style that day at the water park. You know what I'm talking about?

[Colin]

God damn.

[Jamie]

He had to slide hit the water. We.

[Colin]

Him.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

He said, guys, where the are we?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Do you remember that?

[Colin]

Joe Goldman died and go. Joelman was born.

[Jamie]

He was. And he. He was born with a whole new set of skills and abilities in a hole. And he lost a couple as well. But he's still one of the greatest rockers to ever do it. Am I wrong? Legend on stage, dude, the speed kick.

[Colin]

My favorite Joe Goldman thing. Thing is watching him rip an entire set and being like, joe, you killed it, man. And he'll be like, if Sonny does not delete that audio, because I did not play one.

[Bo]

Dude.

[Jamie]

Yeah. I had Sonny delete so many videos. I went up to him, I said, delete it now. I mean, at least six, seven times where it's like. Like, the world doesn't need it. It's dog, dude.

[Bo]

I told him. I told him to delete a up of a band up like the set derailed. I went up to him during it. I said, that's one you're going to have to delete. And he's like, no problem. He kept it in there. Oh, it's out there. I won't say where it is, but it's out there.

[Jamie]

He might have forgot. He might have just forgot. He probably just forgot, dude.

[Bo]

This is the whole band, like, stopping and looking at each other. There's no way when editing you were going to forget that.

[Colin]

I don't. I. I think there's a certain point where he sinks it and he's like, cool, it's good to go.

[Bo]

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[Colin]

And that's normal. It happens.

[Jamie]

You got to put the pressure. Pressure on them.

[Colin]

One last, one last thing before we go. Do you know the whereabouts today of the Giggles T shirt guy in Pittsburgh?

[Jamie]

Dude, you changed our life with that, man. I mean, there's no way around it. It like that place was in I don't know. Where are the shirts? Where is the remaining stock?

[Bo]

He had a. A derogatory name, right? He had a different name.

[Colin]

We won't repeat that.

[Jamie]

We won't repeat. No, he did not. No, he didn't. Bo. God damn.

[Colin]

The Giggles T shirt.

[Bo]

The Giggles T shirt.

[Jamie]

Bo. Anti brothering.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Good lord. No, he was called Giggles.

[Colin]

So you have no idea where Mr. Giggle houses?

[Jamie]

No, I barely knew where he was then. I mean we'd walk in there, he'd come out of the back, he'd give you a thousand dollar shirt for five bucks and be honest. And you guys, California went in there and tore it apart and did what they do, you know.

[Colin]

Thousands off this, this Giggles man.

[Bo]

Ethan was the guy who. Who show who told us about it.

[Colin]

Ethan blew it by putting me on.

[Jamie]

Yeah, dude, shout out to Ethan. Who's got my boy Ethan plays drums in Steel Nation and Bitter End. He's got a thing going with Bose guy James. Yeah. They got this like workout shit called Mass Movement. That's right. Please go check their shit out because I was with Ethan today working out. Dude, he knows his. James knows his shit. Obviously.

[Colin]

My whole life.

[Bo]

My whole life.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And the first Steel Nation fan.

[Jamie]

James has said two sentences to me in a decade and a half. So he's. That's all I really know there. But he scares me when I see him every single time. So he must be doing something good with the weights. And that's really. That. Check out movement.

[Colin]

Check it. Check out Nowhere to run Motives. Yeah, watch that video records coming out soon.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And if you.

[Jamie]

Halloween. Oh, good day.

[Colin]

Great day.

[Bo]

Oh, nice.

[Jamie]

Bo. You. I could see you vibing with a little bit. Bo. You get down with some of this creepy crawly. Yeah.

[Bo]

What's your. What's your on the T shirt shirt? The Freak Loser Metal Punk Kit.

[Jamie]

What.

[Bo]

What's like you're the slogan that you.

[Jamie]

Have on goth, techno, industrial freak man. There it is.

[Bo]

Yeah, I get down with some of that.

[Jamie]

That's a bow. That's a bonus kind of.

[Bo]

I get into that.

[Colin]

And if any of you watching or listening have any idea on the whereabouts of the Giggles T shirt man in Pittsburgh, let me myself or Jamie know and we will get to the bottom of this.

[Bo]

Excellent.

[Jamie]

I'm gonna leave them be, by the way, but. Oh, I'm sure California will make a trip down here to get rich off of it.

[Bo]

That's all.

[Jamie]

That's all it's about for la.

[Colin]

Well, things he had that I sold that I regret selling and want back.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I lost some. I. I lost a couple absolute gems. Like a cure, like wish. Like torture. Yeah.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

It was, like, insane. Dude. I got a lot of my 9 inch nail shirts there before they became 10. To take out a loan and a PNC bank to get a nice snail shirt. Now it's over.

[Bo]

Oh, you. You were the.

[Jamie]

Okay, you were the OGs about. Of the TE's. I mean, these are the teas. That should be a shirt. Maybe. Probably not.

[Colin]

Oh, geez.

[Jamie]

Yeah. I mean, dude, everybody would have a different tea and it would always be something hard.

[Colin]

We didn't do gig shirts. We had 30 shirts each with us at all times.

[Bo]

Yeah. Right, right, right.

[Jamie]

Yes, dude. Typo brought typo shirts into hardcore, that's for damn sure. Am I wrong?

[Colin]

For better or worse, you are not wrong, but I'm glad to hear it. I'm glad to hear it's real and.

[Jamie]

Put me on to typo and. And that's one of the greatest bands of my life still, that I listen to every week, you know, every. Like, during this season, every day. And that's because, you know, we got to give props where it's due.

[Colin]

We do. That's a fact. All right, Jamie, thank you so much for joining us. Nowhere to Run Violence. New movie out soon. Score and soundtrack by Nowhere to Run. Can't wait to see it. Very cool. Can't wait to hear it. Thank you again for joining us. We hope you've all enjoyed this as much as we did, which was a lot. I laughed.

[Bo]

I laughed a bunch.

[Jamie]

We had a good time.

[Colin]

Thank you, Jamie.

[Jamie]

Thanks, bro. Bye.

[Colin]

This episode is brought to you by Mad Vintage.