The Best 2000’s Hardcore Band (Tournament Bracket)

Summary

HardLore Episode Summary

Podcast: HardLore
Hosts: Colin Young & Bo Lueders
Episode: The Best 2000's Hardcore Band (Tournament Bracket)
Date: January 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

Colin and Bo, with a few guest opinions, set out to crown the ultimate 2000s hardcore band. Using a seeded tournament bracket of 64 bands (2000–2010 era), the hosts pit legends of the scene against each other in head-to-head matchups, reflecting on personal experiences, the bands’ impact, creativity, and lasting legacy within hardcore. The process is highly conversational, full of inside stories, playful debate, and scene nostalgia.

Tone: Playful, passionate, self-aware, at times irreverent—hardcore fan energy throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scope, Rules, and Bracket Construction (01:15–02:42)

• Eligibility: Bands with central activity or defining output between 2000–2010, even if some started earlier.
• Selection: 64 bands, double the usual for such brackets, but still sparking “Where’s [X] band?” debates.
• Some key bands (e.g., Ramallah) almost forgotten and slotted in last-minute.
• Quote – Colin (01:51): “It was impossible to do an honorable mention section, because there were as many as on the regular mentions.”
• Purpose: Not strictly popularity—impact, innovation, influence, and “being there” as scene participants matter.

2. First Round Highlights & Matchups

Not comprehensive, just touches on the most animated or controversial discussions.

Converge vs. Rampage (03:34–05:07)

• Converge's creative dominance, peer respect, and scene influence make it the easy pick.
• Quote – James (04:32): “Converge was, in hindsight, like Turnstile. In a creative league of their own … just like, wow, you can do that.”

Bitter End vs. Hope Conspiracy (06:00–08:33)

• Immediate indecision leads to a comical guest tiebreaker (Dan/MJF)—who answers “Suicide,” jokingly picking Suicide File.
• Reminiscence about how both records (“Climate of Fear” and “Death Knows Your Name”) defined the decade but Bitter End edges ahead due to broader/larger impact.
• Memorable Moment (08:12): “Max, if you had to pick between Bitter End or Hope Conspiracy, who would you pick?” “Suicide.”

Trapped Under Ice vs. Violation (09:17–10:29)

• TUI hailed as transformative; credited with uniting hardcore factions (beatdown kids, posi kids, etc.) and shifting the genre’s fashion and musical direction.
• Quote – Colin (09:49): “[TUI] killed melodic hardcore once and for all. Got everybody in bigger jeans, bigger hats, bigger shirts. Changed the world.”

Other Standout Pairings

• Justice given to Shattered Realm vs. Born From Pain; Carry On vs. Justice (“Carry On changed my life,” says James, 15:46).
• Trash Talk vs. Pulling Teeth: Trash Talk more popular/explosive but Pulling Teeth gets the nod for personal replay value and writing “the most convincing vegan anthem.”
• Iron Age vs. The Promise: Recognition of shifting tastes—Iron Age’s impact appreciated “in hindsight.”
• No Warning vs. Bracewar: “No Warning was one of those game-changing bands. The best New York hardcore band from Canada.” (21:26)
• Ceremony vs. New Lows: Ceremony moves forward as a “legit meteor,” praised for their dynamic live energy and artistic risk-taking despite scene risks.
• Cold World vs. Donnybrook: Cold World chosen for lasting festival headliner status; “2000s bands still run shit” when active.
• Piece by Piece vs. Reach the Sky: Passionate defense of Piece by Piece’s unconventional but ultra-hard approach—“better than the Rolling Stones to me.” (27:17)
• Mental vs. Extortion: Mental declared a “decade-defining” band and “the Beatles” for this bracket.
• 86 Mentality, American Nightmare, Rise and Fall all get lavish praise in their matchups.

3. International/Genre Diversity

• Highlights:
  • Framtid lauded as Japanese crust legends.
  • Numb (Japan), Knuckle Dust (UK), Stout (Baltimore), Born From Pain (Germany), Extortion (Australia) all included.
• Recognition of how rare it was for international/genre-variant bands to break into the US hardcore consciousness.

4. Ties & Guest Tiebreakers

Throughout, when Colin and Bo are split, they “phone a friend”:

• Dan/MJF picks “Suicide File” (jokingly).
• Aldo from Human Garbage (for Comeback Kid vs. Ramallah).
• Bob Wilson (for Mental vs. Tragedy).
• Martin Stewart, Jamie Morgan, Chris Mills, and Justice Tripp—they all weigh in for pivotal later-round ties.

5. Meaning of “Best”—Impact, Influence, Endurance

• Recurrent discussion: Is “best” about legacy, personal preference, impact, or sheer catalog consistency?
• Quote – Colin (88:14): “Who’s doper? What would you rather put on right now? I think that means something.”
• Genre boundaries: How “hardcore” must a “hardcore band” be for this context? (e.g., Converge vs. TUI).

6. Advancing Bands: Notable Matchups & Eliminations

• Quarterfinals:

  • TUI vs Carry On: Longevity and breadth give TUI the edge.
  • No Warning vs. American Nightmare: Harder, punchier modern appeal to No Warning (103:11).
  • Have Heart vs. Terror: Terror’s nonstop output, peerless consistency, and omnipresence edge out the massive crowd draws and emotional weight of Have Heart.
  • 100 Demons vs. Blacklisted: 100 Demons’ “hardest band ever” weight wins, with three guests voting in agreement.

• Semifinals:

  • Trapped Under Ice vs. No Warning:
    • TUI's larger influence and continued presence (“spawned” Turnstile, Angel Dust).
  • Terror vs. 100 Demons:
    • Unanimous, including from guests—Terror’s sustained dominance and commitment make them “the standard.”

7. The Finals: Terror vs. Trapped Under Ice (114:31–126:52)

• Side-by-side breakdown of discography, influence, innovation, and objective scene impact.
• Both finalists (Scott Vogel for Terror, Justice Tripp for TUI) weigh in—each gives high praise to the other; both agree Terror is the most consistent, definitive band of the era.
• Quote – Justice Tripp (125:22): “There’s no conversation about what hardcore band is greater than Terror... There’s not a bad release, you’ve never seen a bad show. It’s, I don’t think it’s a competition.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tournament Heresy and Death by Seeding

  • Colin (04:01): “Everybody complained about our first couple brackets because I didn’t seed them at all. It was just... massive band versus massive band. This is seeded pretty well now, which leads to the first round being pretty brutal.”

• On Converge’s Place in Scene History

  • James (04:47): “Converge was, in hindsight, like Turnstile... In a creative league of their own … ahead of their time, that damn Jane Doe face sold about, I know, 3 million.”

• Bitter End vs. Hope Conspiracy

  • Bo (08:33): "Very surprising to me... Bitter End broke out, dude."

• On the Mythology of Stout

  • Colin (44:46): “The mythology of Stout is backed up by this insanely unique, aggressive, and shockingly... high IQ hard music. Baltimore, dude.”

• On Making Brackets and the Purpose

  • Colin (12:25): “I want to remind you all, that’s what this is really about, is putting you onto this big list of things rather than actual... We don’t give a fuck about the winner. Everybody knows it’s between five of these bands.”

• “Better than the Rolling Stones”

  • Colin (27:17): “Piece by Piece is better than the Rolling Stones to me.”

• Mental vs. Tragedy

  • Bob Wilson (82:49): “I obviously love Tragedy... but you gotta go Mental, I’m sorry.”

• On the Impact of TUI

  • Colin (09:49): “Trapped Under Ice changed the world.”

• Finals Perspective from the Actual Bands

  • Scott Vogel (Terror) (121:11): “My thoughts on Trapped Under Ice, man, they should win. Give it to them. Perfect live band, so much personality, unique style, all the records are great."
  • Justice Tripp (TUI) (125:24): “There’s no conversation about what hardcore band is greater than Terror...Not a bad release, you've never seen a bad show."

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Tournament Timeline & Notable Tiebreak Decisions

• 08:12, 53:07, 82:04, 91:39, 107:48, 108:48, 110:25, 118:28, 119:13
  • Various tiebreak calls and hot seat opinions from scene luminaries and friends; formatted like true “phone a friend” moments.

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The Final Four & Outcome

| Semifinalists | Notable Reactions | |------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | Trapped Under Ice (TUI) | “God tier hardcore… spawned new era, changed everything.” | | No Warning | “Aggressive, hard, capital H/C, demo & LP unstoppable.” | | Terror | “Never stopped, 12th LP on the way, the band.” | | 100 Demons | “Hardest band ever. Certified. But... Terror has it.” |

Championship Match: Terror vs. Trapped Under Ice

• Both bands’ vocalists called for thoughts.
• Both agree: Terror is the most deserving, “the Michael Jordan” of hardcore.
• Quote – Colin (127:27): “Terror. The best 2000s hardcore band. Who can argue that?”
• All agree: if you’re new or old, (re)discover Terror’s discography—and all 64 bracketed bands.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Bracket Setup: 00:00–03:30
• Notable First Round Matchups: 03:34–20:00
• International/Genre Diversity: 29:21, 67:35
• Mid-bracket Recap: 38:31–39:17
• Quarter/Semifinals: 101:53–114:31
• Finals & Winners’ Commentary: 114:44–127:10
• Signing Off: 127:27–128:20

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Conclusion

HardLore’s "Best 2000’s Hardcore Band" bracket is more than a competitive tournament: it’s a love letter to the era’s bands, a showcase for their influence, a peek inside hardcore’s lived history, and a hilarious, earnest testament to scene camaraderie and friendly contradiction.
Final Result: TERROR — the “band of the decade,” crowned by consensus, competitors, and hosts alike.

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“There’s no conversation about what hardcore band is greater than Terror.”
— Justice Tripp (125:22)

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Recommended for: Hardcore fans, scene history heads, people who love deep-cut debates, anyone seeking the essence of the 2000s hardcore spirit.

Transcript

[Colin]

Bitter End San Antonio versus the Hope Conspiracy. Another Boston monolith here. Hope Con, I love.

[James]

Oh, are you leaning?

[Colin]

I'm leaning. I'm going Bitter End here.

[James]

I'm going full hokan.

[Colin]

So let's see. Let's. Let's get somebody on the. On the horn here. Here we go. Dan, are you. Are you on the show right now? You're about to be. Can you have a special guest on the podcast who? MJS? Yes, MJF. MJF's gonna weigh in on. On something very important. Max. If you had to pick between Bitter End or Hope Conspiracy, who would you pick?

[James]

Suicide.

[Colin]

Oh, the suicide file. Go. Holy shit. Hello, welcome. It's Hard Lord time. Here we go again.

[James]

Yeah, we're. We. We do this to ourselves. We do this to you. I hope if you're going to listen to this episode, you're alone so that when you're yelling, you're not scaring anyone.

[Colin]

Yeah, easy. This is the official Hard Lore episode to Crown the best 2000s hardcore band of all time. Now, I know what you've been thinking the past 24 hours or so as you've been staring at bracket. Oh, my God, there's twice as many. You know, we were there. So we're finally really qualified to handle this.

[James]

Yeah, this is one where we. We. As Collins said, we were there. It's a lot of our peers, a lot of people we're still friends with to this day, and there's a lot of bands that aren't on it because there's that many bands.

[Colin]

You know, it's like it was impossible to do an honorable mention section because there were as many on regular mentions, so we had to just go ahead and double it. And we know there's still some things missing. You. You cannot please everybody. We know you're blowing up the comment section saying, where is this band? Where is this band? They. There were. Turns out there were 64 bands that we thought fit a little better.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And I'm sure we're for. We forgot Ramallah until minutes before this.

[James]

So, so ridiculous.

[Colin]

If we don't do this right now, the whole thing will be different tomorrow.

[James]

Yeah. And we should clarify, too, when we say 2000's banned, we're talking 2000 to 2010.

[Colin]

That's right. And some of these bands started in the 90s, but their era was the 2000s.

[James]

Very important.

[Colin]

You know, Carry On's on here. They broke up in 2001, played one show in 2005, but we all spent the whole decade hoping they'd play again. And that means They're a 2000s band.

[James]

Converge started in the 90s, 80s, 90s.

[Colin]

90S, but that's a certified. Ran the 2000s.

[James]

Right. So it's all about the kind of the era, not just first thing they ever did.

[Colin]

And if you've seen any of our other tournament bracket episodes, you know that sometimes we get stuck. We hit an impasse, we hit a road, and we need a little help. So we'll be calling in some guests who have not been prepped on the bracket to tie to be our tiebreakers in the. In the toughest moments of this episode.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah. So what do you say?

[Colin]

I say we start. All right, matchup number one, left side. Top of the. Top of the page. We got a Boston showdown. Converge versus Rampage.

[James]

All right, listen, the first round of these things is. It's tough to be fair, because when. When there's a. Especially when there's a band like Converge.

[Colin]

Yes.

[James]

Like, I'm sorry, here's the thing.

[Colin]

Everybody complained about our first couple brackets because I didn't seed them at all. It was just like, here's Heat. Heat versus Heat. Massive band versus massive band. This is seeded pretty well now, which leads to the first round being pretty brutal. So Rampage gets the end of the stick here for sure, but great band, straight up, Capital hc. A great, amazing discography. Not a bad song. But Converge is the. Is the clear winner here.

[James]

Well, what's fun about this is. Is, as you said, we were there, so we can literally talk about how, like, Converge was. Was at one point, like, in. In hindsight seemed like Turnstile, seemed like.

[Colin]

In a creative league of their own and.

[James]

And huge. And doing all these crazy tours and constantly in doing all this cool art stuff and DVDs and just things that were just like, wow, you can do that.

[Colin]

So ahead of their time.

[James]

So ahead of the time, that damn Jane Doe face sold about. I know, 3 million.

[Colin]

Exactly. This is a band that all of our peers love.

[James]

A band where if. If they're playing a fest, the band's going watch, or they're playing the show. Everybody's watching, you know? Yeah.

[Colin]

That's a monitor sellout. So Converge is a clear winner here. Check out Rampage, though. Great band. Match up to Bitter End. San Antonio Climate of fia.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Versus the Hope Conspiracy. Another Boston monolith here.

[James]

It's funny because I actually thought Bitter End was a little later, but that.

[Colin]

Being is like, 2005. Climate Affair was 2007.

[James]

Oh, look at that.

[Colin]

That's a perfect record.

[James]

Wow.

[Colin]

Hope Con I. I love.

[James]

Oh, oh. Are you leaning Bitter End?

[Colin]

I'm going Bitter End here.

[James]

I'm going full Hope Con. All due respect to Bitter End, but Hope Con.

[Colin]

Listen, I love them. I'm. I'm a. I'm a huge fan. I'm a day one fan, dude.

[James]

Also to consider the comeback record with like Animal Farm on it. What's. What's. What's it called?

[Colin]

Death knows your name, dude. So good.

[James]

Came out of nowhere and rocked, you know, I agree.

[Colin]

And I also think Bitter End Climate of Fear is like a decade defining hardcore album to me. But we're at an impasse.

[James]

We're at an impasse already.

[Colin]

We gotta make first call.

[James]

I didn't expect that.

[Colin]

Yeah, me neither. But it is what it is. This is why this is fun. I love hopecon. I love Bitter Ant. And that's. And here we are.

[James]

Okay, we can't call anyone from New England or Texas, so let's see.

[Colin]

Let's get somebody on the horn here.

[James]

I can't believe the second round. We're doing it.

[Colin]

Yeah. What's up? Here we go. Dan, are you. Are you on the show right now? You're about to be. Can you have a special guest on the podcast? Who? MJF. Oh, yes, MJF. MJF's gonna weigh in on. On something very important, Dan. It's one of these, like weird goth music. Yes, yes.

[James]

Did you stop for two seconds?

[Colin]

All right, so here we go, Dan. We're crowning the best 2000s hardcore band of all time.

[James]

Of all time.

[Colin]

Of all time. Okay. Did I just say it? No, We. We're. We're at an impasse. We're at an imp. I know we all do, but we're at an impasse and we need. We. We're. This is Matchup two. And we're stuck. Okay. Bitter End versus the Hope conspiracy. There you go. Hope conspiracy is. Is good. Bitter End did so much more, Wrote so many more better songs. Climate of Fear, decade defining, Right? Yeah, I would absolutely agree. Climate Fear is like. It's like a era defining record. Max is saying Frank Sinatra. Yeah, tell them about. Probably Ask Max. Bitter End or Hope Con. Max, if you had to pick between Bitter End or Hope Conspiracy, who would you pick?

[James]

Suicide.

[Colin]

Oh, the suicide file.

[James]

Suicide file.

[Colin]

Yeah, they're coming up. All right, thank you, Dan. I may call you back. Okay, bye bye. There you have it.

[James]

Definitely keeping that in.

[Colin]

Yeah, 100%. We got. Okay, so Bitter End and Suicide take the round.

[James]

That's very surprising to me. Very surprising to Me, I, you know.

[Colin]

Bitter End broke out. Dude.

[James]

I wonder if it's because at the time I was into Hope Con. I wasn't into, like, heavier. Heavier yet. And Hope Cotton was kind of weird. Had had, like, musical parts as opposed to kind of like best wishes type stuff. I wasn't there yet, you know? So I wonder if. Just hindsight, okay.

[Colin]

I just. I would say even in the. In the time 2007, come out of Fear comes out, it changes the landscape.

[James]

All right.

[Colin]

One of those landscape changing bands. Not that Hope Con wasn't Dark hc, you know.

[James]

Next.

[Colin]

Okay, Next matchup here, man.

[James]

Sorry, guys.

[Colin]

Trapped Under Ice versus Violation. Violation is one of the greatest. Ventura County. This is a Santa Barbara HC band, one of the best 805 hardcore bands of all time. And some other matchups here. They could go very far. Unfortunately for them, they were seated against the band that killed Melodic Parkour once and for all. Got everybody in bigger jeans, bigger hats, bigger shirts. Trapped Under Ice changed the world.

[James]

Yeah, you want to say era defining. I mean, that. That's. Tui is one of the bands with, like. With a bullet, you know, where it's united the world. Yeah.

[Colin]

The Beatdown kids, the Posi Kids, the Straight Edge kids, the Crusties. Everybody loves Tui to this day.

[James]

Very good point. And also, like, you know, I didn't know about bands from Baltimore. I didn't know about Stout. I found out about Stout because of.

[Colin]

Tui, as I'm sure many. It did. Many. You know.

[James]

You know, I think that's cool. It's. It's. It's a band from a place, and I identify with that where maybe not a lot of people know about the music going on there. It's. It's Tui for sure.

[Colin]

There you go.

[James]

All due respect to violence, I totally agree.

[Colin]

Violation, dude, I mean, that was. They were kind of a local sea change, too, because they were all in crowbar shirts and ripping off Life is Pain very early for. I mean, they were. They changed the game here at least. But Tui changed the game everywhere.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

What can you do? Up next, Shattered Realm versus Born from Pain. This is the kings of New Jersey beat down versus the kings of German hardcore. Really?

[James]

Yeah. I've only seen Born for Pain once. One time, dude.

[Colin]

They have, like, eight great records. It's crazy. Shadow Realm, Broken Ties, Spoken Lies, masterpiece.

[James]

I mean, this is. This is a Colin Young bracket. These are. These bands weren't really in my wheelhouse at the time.

[Colin]

These two, I would say When I was 17, I wanted my first tattoo to be a Shattered Realm tattoo. I did not get that tattoo, but I did feel that way. I didn't feel that way about Born For Pain, but I think Shadow Realm has two LPs. Broken ties, broken Lies and From the Dead End Blocks Where Life Means Nothing. Born For Pain has a lot of great records, but I don't know that any of them hold up to the modern audience as much as Broken Ties does on its own.

[James]

I see.

[Colin]

I think. I fear it. I think it must be Shattered Wrong.

[James]

I'm. I'm good with that. Orange Retain. Definitely Born From Pain or definitely synonymous with that era of hardcore, for sure. You know? Yeah. I think. I think that's the right decision.

[Colin]

Massive band, you know, and, like, got broke out. They crossed over. They got over in the US which was very hard for international bands in the 2000s.

[James]

Very hard. I can name, like, four.

[Colin]

Insane matchup next.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

I feel like nowhere but here can this happen. And that's. That's really the most beautiful thing. And I want to remind you all that's what this is really about, is putting you onto this big list of things rather than actual. We don't give a fuck about the winner. Everybody knows it's between five of these bands.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

But we get to talk about Frantid versus Think I Care.

[James]

Right now I feel like we're going to be at another impasse.

[Colin]

Oh, yeah. I would. I would think so.

[James]

Because Frantid is not really anything to me, man.

[Colin]

I've played with them twice.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Japanese Crusty Legends.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Zero Skips, DB Masters, still rocking expertly to this day. Massive discography.

[James]

That's impressive.

[Colin]

You know, Think I Cares got Mongrel World, the other one.

[James]

World Asylum.

[Colin]

World Asylum, of course.

[James]

Mm.

[Colin]

Is that the rule? Is that it? And then the new thing.

[James]

And then the new thing, which is very good. They just had. Oh, they got a way about them, you know? I don't know. There was just. There was something about how that group approached music that. That hit so fucking hard.

[Colin]

I completely agree. And it's the. There's a band we're going to talk about later where I feel the same. Where it's not overly obviously hard. Like, classically. Like, what hard means now is a different thing than what Think I Care was doing. And it's still harder than so many things. It's a convent. It's an. It's an. It's like a different kind of conventional hardness. And I'll give you the best example later, but I don't want to talk.

[James]

Okay. Okay. Okay, Coming up.

[Colin]

Incredible band. Obviously, I'm a franted hit.

[James]

Okay. I mean, it's not necessarily a hill that I want to die on. Because I'll give you a little hint, either one's losing the next round, so 100%. So, so, like, it's fine. We don't like, I'll accept that.

[Colin]

But I mean, here's the thing. In the US and this, this is another thing. This is not. We did not put this bracket together with the thing in mind of, like, what was most popular at the time. It's the best of, you know.

[James]

Right.

[Colin]

Some things we did add because of how popular it was at the time.

[James]

Not necessarily the best up. Right, right, right, right.

[Colin]

But that's not to say I think Frampton is like, so in much insanely better than Think I Care because they're both such great bands. I think the sheer depth of their discography, their consistency and their unique position on this list makes them the winner to me.

[James]

Okay, I'll accept it.

[Colin]

We've got a lot to argue about later.

[James]

Yeah, I know. But it's not a hill I need to die on.

[Colin]

Carry on versus Justice.

[James]

Oh, man, I saw justice with either dead stop with 86 mentality. I think 86 mentality at DePaul University. I, I, maybe 2005. Love. They, they had the weirdest songwriting. Really cool. I, I, I like that record very, very much. Carry on changed my life. I'm not, I'm not exaggerating. The 7 inch and the LP fucking rearranged how I thought about what this kind of music could be.

[Colin]

I agree. And justice is maybe the best to ever do the, like, super touch worship style.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Carry on is one of the best bands ever.

[James]

Ever.

[Colin]

Period. Carry On.

[James]

Yeah, I mean, that's, you guys know.

[Colin]

Us, justice for Justice. But, but Carry on wins here.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Colin]

Very interesting matchup of next. Oh, Trash Talk versus Pulling Teeth. Now if you want to talk popularity.

[James]

Trash talk.

[Colin]

Trash talk was over. They crossed over to all sects.

[James]

That fucking T shirt.

[Colin]

Yes. Everywhere. Everywhere. Still at the mall. You know, you go to Borders, it's right there. Pulling teeth. Creative band, original band. What? Dude, the Dead is dead.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

What a banger. What are you so afraid of? Come on. What are you. Oh, dude, they wrote. I think the Dead is Dead is the, is like one of the greatest vegan most convincing vegan anthems of all time.

[James]

Oh, interesting.

[Colin]

Where I read that and I thought, he's got a point.

[James]

This is tough.

[Colin]

This is tough.

[James]

I've seen both bands, a handful of Times.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Just. Just played with Trash Talk at the.

[Colin]

Icp and it was probably insane.

[James]

It was awesome.

[Colin]

You know, I would say of if this was who was most popular, it would be Trash Talk.

[James]

Yes.

[Colin]

If it's who I listen to more, it's Pulling Teeth.

[James]

Yeah. I think I, I, that that's how it was for me. It feels, it just feels a little crazy because we're talking about. Yeah, okay. Because we were talking about Converge and Tui's like Impact or Bitter Ends. Impact. But that's not the only thing because impact wise, Trash Talk had a much.

[Colin]

Bigger impact to this day. So we're not still impacting.

[James]

Yes. So we're not only talking about that.

[Colin]

I just love, I love pointy.

[James]

Me too. Me too.

[Colin]

I think I'm going point.

[James]

Okay, I'm with you.

[Colin]

All due respect to Trash Talk. Yeah, of course they were, I mean, both bands. So this was initially 32 bands. You know, we made it 64 because we had so many honorable mentions. Trash Talk and Pulling Teeth were both on there immediately. So both no brainer matchups. Trash Talk could have gone a lot further, but Pulling Teeth takes it this time. Okay. Iron Age versus the Promise.

[James]

Now this is interesting because Iron Age, I remember Iron Age playing Chicago and everybody like, went and sat down because it was like, oh, this band sucks. We were young.

[Colin]

This was so crazy because the first LP is like everything you like, dude.

[James]

It was, I think it was mental. Blacklisted Iron Age and Blacklisted.

[Colin]

Huge. Yeah, of course. But Iron Age sounds more like best wishes than. And you love best wishes, you know.

[James]

A nod in 2000, whatever.

[Colin]

No, I totally understand.

[James]

I did not, you know, so I don't think Iron Age sucks. I actually think Iron Age is sick now.

[Colin]

Amazing.

[James]

But I'm just explaining that, like, it's very interesting because at the time, you know, I only saw him once and it was like, oh, yeah, we don't like that band. I was, I was young. I didn't know. Saw Promise once to fucking love the promise. I love.

[Colin]

These are ideological opposites. You know, we got Kings of. We got the guys who were doing the Volcano weed bag before for anybody versus Syracuse Straight Edge. I think, I think of the two.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Iron Age is clear winner. I think what they're. And if we're talking impact, their impact with. I know, but two LPs and could probably headline any US festival tomorrow.

[James]

Yeah, Promise probably couldn't.

[Colin]

But, you know, many riffs. Straight Edge. That's a perk.

[James]

Believer. Crush all fakes. I will. Okay. I'M fine with that. Not a hill I need to die on. I would probably personally put the promise. It's just funny looking down the road and just being like, well, if we.

[Colin]

Call anyone, do you think they're agreeing with you?

[James]

Oh, if we called one of.

[Colin]

Yes, but you. One of the four people that don't think the exact same as you, you know?

[James]

Yeah, right. Yeah. Because Chris and James are absolutely agreeing with me. Caution would probably agree with me. I wonder. What?

[Colin]

You're all the same guy.

[James]

I know, I know, I know. That's why I'm saying they don't count. I know the first person you tried to call was Brody. You are this. Yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

But Bitter End versus Hobcon, that's not. Those are two bands. I've never heard him talk about, you know.

[James]

Oh, sure.

[Colin]

That. That was my thinking there. I've never brought down with Nate about the Hope Conspiracy or Bitter. Yeah.

[James]

I wonder. I wish Bob would have answered because this would be a good one for him.

[Colin]

He's going Iron Age.

[James]

All right.

[Colin]

I would bet Bob.

[James]

All right, up next.

[Colin]

We're halfway through the. The first round.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

First round of the first round. This is insane. No warning versus brace war. Listen. Brace war. In 2006, Pandemonium Richmond, straight up. Dude played more second most sound and Furious than any other band that we found. No Warning was one of those sea change, game changing bands.

[James]

The best New York hardcore band.

[Colin]

The best New York hardcore band from Canada. Demo, 7 inch, first LP.

[James]

Suffer survive, absolutely.

[Colin]

All happened in this one decade. All bangers. It's no warning here.

[James]

Of course. Of course. All due. And I'm sure Braces would agree. You know what I mean? Like.

[Colin]

Ryan Braces, basically extended family to all. You know, he's. He. He was Unk before Unk was. But it is. It is no warning here.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Fascinating matchup next.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

One of those bands. Ceremony.

[James]

Another one. Yeah.

[Colin]

Sold out. The motherfucking Palladium.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Versus New Lows, who I've briefly played for.

[James]

I love New Lows.

[Colin]

Me too.

[James]

When. When the first. It was either the demo or a seven incher. Whatever. The first New Lows thing, when that came out, we listened. I think it was a seven inch. We listened to it non stop.

[Colin]

Yeah, I love the LP too. Harvested. What is the. Is the lp Harvest of the Carcass or is that a song?

[James]

It was literally. It would be the TUI demo. The new. New list, like back and forth.

[Colin]

Get dude out of here. And I'm pretty sure it was the homie Think I Care writing that first one.

[James]

Yeah. It was Doug Free, dfj. I think.

[Colin]

I think you're right.

[James]

I mean, come on. New Lowe's rocks if you don't know. New lows check out.

[Colin]

Oh, God.

[James]

Dude, all due respect, them. It's got to be Ceremony. Yeah.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Ceremony.

[Colin]

A.

[James]

A meteor.

[Colin]

Legit meteor.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And so much so. Such a dynamic discography.

[James]

Discography. We talked about it with Anthony when we spent the day with him, but, like, dressing and. And performing how he did at that time and touring was scary. That's. That's a. That's a difficult thing to do today. It would be a difficult thing to do at the time. It was quite a bit, you know, and they. He owned it. They owned it. They went off hard. They. They killed. Dude, we did a. We did a tour. It was half heart, blacklisted. Ceremony let down and convicted. Ceremony, like, kind of stole the show every night, you know, Unmatched energy. Yeah.

[Colin]

Ahead of their time in many ways. Ceremony wins here.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Oh, man. Big one for me. Cold World versus Donnybrook. I'm from California.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

So Donnybrook is second. Nate. The songs are so ingrained in my brain at this point.

[James]

Well, yeah.

[Colin]

That they're just part now. Now especially. But Donnybrook, both great bands.

[James]

I had the donnybrook 7 inch in the back of a car and it warped in the sun.

[Colin]

Nice.

[James]

Got it at a. A Chicago heist that turned into the Rumble. Saw them play one time. Liked him. Didn't get it, you know, too young. 15, 16.

[Colin]

You see him now with Dre and Martine singing, I think I would get it.

[James]

You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Colin]

Cold World, one of the biggest hardcore bands of the decade. And, like, kind of still. This is the weird thing is the 2000 and tens and 2000 and twenties didn't. Haven't yet produced a lot of headliners.

[James]

Oh, interesting, interesting.

[Colin]

The 2000s are still kind of headlining stuff when they're. When they're. When they're in there, when they're in the mix. Mm. I think that's changing now, you know, with, like, Drain, Tsunami, Speed.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Turnstile is obviously the exception to every rule, but, like, a lot of. A lot of festival headliners are in. In this list and. And the 90s and obviously the 80s.

[James]

Very good point.

[Colin]

Cold World is a festival headliner.

[James]

Absolutely. And were at the time.

[Colin]

Donnybrook, I love so much. This is hard for me.

[James]

Yeah. I think it's Cold World if you consider everything and impact.

[Colin]

I think it has to be having played for Donnybrook. I will. I will pardon my bias and agree with you.

[James]

It is tough when it's a Southern California band.

[Colin]

Yeah, Big time. Seen him a billion times. Been so terrified. But the biggest relief while seeing Donnybrook is that Dre was on the stage.

[James]

He was on the stage. Yeah. He's not out there.

[Colin]

It was honestly a very Donnybrook pit. As long as you were pitting was a very safe place to be. As long as Corey Williams was not pitting or on stage, pitting for Donnybrook was a safe place to be. I mean, you had some fucking scumbags in there for sure, but. But as long as you were about it and you were. You were really participating, you're gonna be all right. But Dre being on stage and not moshing near me was always relief.

[James]

Not being from either place, Wilkes Barre or Southern California. Yeah, I think it. It's. I think it has to go to Cold World.

[Colin]

Okay, next round is a. Is a. Is a bias. I will not. I'm. I'm no bias here. Piece By Piece, which is.

[James]

It's a shame that Donnybrook didn't win, because that would be interesting.

[Colin]

That would be fun. Piece By Piece is one of the greatest bands of all time. Piece By Piece is a top 10 Los Angeles hardcore band in history, and they're against Reach the Sky here. All due respect, to Reach the Sky, they were again on the bracket immediately obvious 2000s pick. Piece by Piece is better than the Rolling Stones to me. And I think this is the man I was talking about where much, like, Think I care. They're not conventionally hard in the way you would think hard is now. They're harder than any Beatdown band without doing any of that kind of thing.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Every song holds up. It's Piece By Piece.

[James]

I'm fine with that. I saw Reach the Sky one time. I didn't. Again, I didn't connect with it because it was, like, kind of melodic. Like, I didn't. I didn't.

[Colin]

Yeah, there's. There's like a. An amazing core element to it, you know?

[James]

Yeah, very. But then the singer went on to do a band called Stand Accused, and the Stand Accused demo is fucking awesome, if you know about that. I. That was a demo that I carried in my backpack at school.

[Colin]

That's all.

[James]

Because I was like, I ordered it, you know, and it was awesome. So check that out.

[Colin]

Great band. Reach the Sky.

[James]

Great band.

[Colin]

No disrespect intended, because they are on here again, which we want that to mean something. You Know, Yeah. Piece By Piece is one of the greatest bands of all time.

[James]

Some would say better than the Rolling Stones.

[Colin]

Some would say better than the Rolling Stones. I think one of the most underrated bands in history. Put on the We've Lost it all comp record. It's unbelievable. The intro, you'll be like, what does this man sound like? I don't understand. And then it kicks in and it's just hardcore, hardcore, hardcore, hardcore, hardcore. Pit, pit, pit, pit, pit. The best lyrics, coolest vibe, piece by piece. Next up, Mental, one of Boston's finest versus Extortion, Australia's finest.

[James]

So when we're talking about this era. Yeah, I didn't know about Extortion.

[Colin]

Of course not.

[James]

Mental. Mental. Were the Beatles for real? Like, every time they came to Chicago, it was the best show of the year. Every fucking time they ran shit. There was not everywhere. Everywhere, everywhere. There was nothing cooler than their songwriting. The merch, the artwork. Like, I don't know, locking out, like all that. Like, everything about it was just, oh, that's the coolest thing in the world. I was so into locking out in Boston Hardcore at the time. I thought I was going to go to school in Boston.

[Colin]

Because you loved dfj.

[James]

I was like. I was like, yeah. I was like, well, obviously the scene rocks. Like, so that's cool. I'll just go to Boston. Like, I really truly planned on it then. I didn't get into a single college.

[Colin]

Oh, you applied to him?

[James]

I applied to quite a few colleges.

[Colin]

For some reason, I never even bothered. I mean, it's mental. It's. It's mental here. But I want to give Extortion their flowers because they are such an incredible band. Crusty Legends still rocking to this day. Aaron Osborne is in the band now.

[James]

Aaron's going, what are you doing? He's pissed.

[Colin]

It's Mental Cunt. Mental. Another decade defining band. And their. Their demat. Their. Them going away is still being mourned, you know?

[James]

Dude, also Planet Mental. Fucking awesome record.

[Colin]

Many tracks.

[James]

When Record Weird. When it came out, people were like, oh, it was very different. It's awesome. I love that record. Love.

[Colin]

Mike Sari is a big. Planet Mental guy, if I'm. If I'm not mistaken, this is Mental.

[James]

Yes.

[Colin]

Country Mile. But I wanted Australian representation. Extortion. Such a great band. And here we continue. Okay. Tragedy versus 86 mentality.

[James]

Listen, I. I was never like a big crust guy. Stadium crust.

[Colin]

Oh, you're doing. Listen, on behalf of 86 mentality, I love those. Oh, man, it's it is Tragedy.

[James]

I. I don't think I can really argue that. You know what I mean? I love those seven inches. Terrible. Unbelievable.

[Colin]

Great, great band. Captured that time and 86 so well.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Holds up so well.

[James]

It actually. I actually listened to it like last winter, which is very recent for something like that, you know. They were so good brief band.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

I remember. God. I. I saw. Oh, I mentioned that. I saw them and Justice. Dead Stop also toured with 86 mentality, dead stop and Rise of all played Chicago. Dead stop played the 86 mentality intro just to do it and the room went insane. A very fond memory of mine at Pulaski Park District in Chicago.

[Colin]

That's awesome.

[James]

All that being said, I know Tragedy is like the American one of the greats.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Them and from Ashes Rise who we'll talk about soon. Crust hardcore pioneers, Legends and did the Burning Spirit thing. As good as the Burning Spirit bands. So it's Tragedy here.

[James]

Fine.

[Colin]

Listen, there are. They made it, you know.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, I mean I think they legitimately had 27 inches and that was it.

[Colin]

Yeah. And Tragedy have fucking like eight LPs.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And they're all good.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

It's a tough one because it's not. American Nightmare versus First Blood. First Blood demo. Dude.

[James]

Dude, this is. You know what's funny about this? This is our first like era, like genre defining era defining matchup.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Because First Blood was synonymous at this time with every other band we're talking about that demo and the split.

[Colin]

It'S. I mean it was like terror and Piece by piece continued with Carl singing.

[James]

Right.

[Colin]

But. But like with an insanely hard hate. Breed Twist, dude. And then the LP is wild.

[James]

I like. I like songs on it. For sure.

[Colin]

Yeah. It's wild.

[James]

It the. The sampling on the demo, all the Rambo shit. So it's like the. I actually just got chills. That. That part is incredible. I like. I really do like First Blood. An. I loved American Nightmare.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Loved American Nightmare. Haven't listened to background music in a minute, but I mean still goes. Yeah, I. I know it does. You know and I just think, man, they were very important to me. They were like headliners too. Like legit.

[Colin]

Still are.

[James]

You know. I. I think it's an. For sure.

[Colin]

I completely agree. Good.

[James]

I'm glad. I'm glad.

[Colin]

Here we go.

[James]

Oh, no.

[Colin]

Yeah. This is a tough one. This is a tough one for you.

[James]

I feel like it's okay.

[Colin]

Two bands you love. Rise and Fall versus the Killer.

[James]

Now any of my. Any of my Chicago Heads. You'll notice a lack of Chicago hardcore bands and Chicago punk bands, but I think we're being fair because it would be a little too beau. Chicago biased. So shout out, obviously to Punch the face wound up 14 or fight the Repos Sidewalk Plan of Attack, Expired Youth. All the bands who you might be like, what about. I know.

[Colin]

But then it's like, all right, yeah, take out Iron Age and put Plan of Attack. You know.

[James]

Exactly.

[Colin]

A little disingenuous.

[James]

Exactly. So I don't want to do that. I'm trying to be as objective as we can. The Killer are, to me, the most important Chicago hardcore band that I live through and experience. I've. I've been a champion of theirs on the show since the start.

[Colin]

We are certified killers over here.

[James]

I'll never forget one of the first times I went to. To the old house in Van Nuys, seeing the demo tape just on the windowsill, being like, huh, they know about the Killer. Yeah, Absolutely love the Killer. There would be no harm's way without the Killer. The most respect for that band and they know it. Rise and Fall, the. The Hellmouth, Seven Inch Into Oblivion and Circles. I. I grew to really like that record.

[Colin]

What was the single between it. Was it Clawing? Oh.

[James]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[Colin]

I love the way he said that word, Clawing. It was like clawing.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

It's just really. There's something. Sometimes when the accent comes out, I really connect with it even harder.

[James]

Into Oblivion. If you guys haven't listened to Rise and Fall Into Oblivion, for. For me, as a young person getting more and more into hardcore was like, oh, there's hardcore in Europe. Oh, this exists there. Into Oblivion. From Second one.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

To the very, very end. Is a perfect record. I cannot give it enough praise. Like, I love that band. Got to see him. Got to tour with him a couple times. One of the greatest group of guys I've ever met. Still friends to this day. I love this band. I love this man. You know?

[Colin]

Me too. Saw them a lot. Had a lot of merch.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

The brown shirt with the gold. Come on. Goaded Dude.

[James]

Every man.

[Colin]

I'm going. The Killer.

[James]

Why are you doing this to me? Okay. Call anyone not from Chicago.

[Colin]

I'd be happy to. I need the record to be shown that I'm picking the Killer.

[James]

You're doing this just to be a little fucker.

[Colin]

No, I'm not. I'm picking the Killer.

[James]

You think Better To Be Judged is a better or more impactful record than Into Oblivion?

[Colin]

I think I listen to it more I think I listen to it more. I think not. All who wonder are lost. Smokes, everything.

[James]

What sucks about this is when you call someone, they're gonna assume I'm going for the killer.

[Colin]

Uh huh.

[James]

It's misrepresentation.

[Colin]

This is tough because we pitted two of your favorite things against each other.

[James]

Like truly two of my favorite bands. So like, either way, I guess I'm happy. But I know you're doing this just.

[Colin]

To be a. I think here's the thing. Realistically, I think anybody we call is saying, rise and Fall.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Therefore we'll skip the call.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

But I picked the killer. And on that note, our left side is complete. Our winners are Converge, Bitter End, Trapped Under Ice, Shattered Realm, Framtit, Carry On Pulling Teeth, Iron Age, no Warning Ceremony, Cold World, Piece By Piece, Mental Tragedy, American Nightmare and Rise and Fall. What a doozy, baby. A lot of great bands in the dust here.

[James]

Yeah. But now we're getting into like every one of these could be day one of a fest and just smash this.

[Colin]

Fest that I just list.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Colin]

Sold out in an hour. Okay. Let's get to the right side here.

[James]

Yeah. Oh, interesting.

[Colin]

Oh.

[James]

First.

[Colin]

First matchup is down to Nothing versus Wisdom and Chains.

[James]

Two bands that their. Their respective fan base would say are the band. You know what I mean? Like people in Richmond, they're going to say it's down to nothing.

[Colin]

Down to Nothing were the kings of Richmond.

[James]

People in the state of Pennsylvania are going to say, no, no, no. Wisdom and Chains is the band, you know.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Very interesting.

[Colin]

Tell you what, man. Down to Nothing had some of the craziest sets I've ever seen.

[James]

Yes.

[Colin]

The production is the same dude who did Blood for Blood on a lot of those records. So they sound exactly like the Blood for Blood records. And that means they sound very good. Straight edge. Not anymore. Wisdom and Chains.

[James]

This is a tough one. I don't really have. I don't really have a dog in the fight.

[Colin]

I think. I think we're not talking impact, but DTN is like festival headliner across around the world, probably.

[James]

Interesting.

[Colin]

I love Wisdom and Chains. Again, toured with them without hearing a song. By the end of the tour, I knew every word to every song without ever listening to the studio recordings of them. That's unbelievable. But I think this is dtn.

[James]

Okay. I think that's fair.

[Colin]

I think just it is what it is. Yeah.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

Have Heart versus Stop and Think.

[James]

I love Stop and Think. Both demos.

[Colin]

Both demos.

[James]

Love, have Heart. What's funny is in this era, when did Things we carry come out.

[Colin]

2005, maybe.

[James]

Oh, is it. Is it that early six? I thought the seven inch was 2007. I thought. I thought.

[Colin]

I think we carry is six probably.

[James]

I remember listening to it while I was driving a car that I had it.

[Colin]

Because isn't songs to scream at my son like 2008.

[James]

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. I love Stop and Think Half Heart. The. It's Half Heart.

[Colin]

Like they're just fucking drew 10,000 people in Worcester, Massachusetts.

[James]

Exactly.

[Colin]

At a regular ass show.

[James]

And it's funny because when they were first around. I've told this on the show before, like they toured on the seven inch and there were seven people paid in Chicago. Seven.

[Colin]

I mean there were about 800 in chain reaction when they. Whenever they would play. The cap is like 140.

[James]

My point was, it's interesting that at first they weren't quite a national thing yet, you know, but then.

[Colin]

But then immediately became the worldwide thing.

[James]

Yes. They were the first band. They played Burning Fight and they were getting ready to leave for like a world tour. Yeah, like that big world tour. The. The last thing that they did before they like broke up, I think. And that was like. I didn't know hardcore bands could do that.

[Colin]

I mean, I don't think anybody did.

[James]

Yeah, they played like Africa.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

You know, and it was like.

[Colin]

Talk about it extensively on our amazing episode from many years ago with Pat Flynn. Go back to it. It's very good. Stop and think what an underrated band.

[James]

Very underrated.

[Colin]

Would have loved to have seen them go farther.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

But again, that's listed this brackets out of our hands. Carrie made it, not us. So.

[James]

Yeah, Carrie, Our Carrie.

[Colin]

It's Half Heart here.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Stop and think. Great band. Go listen to both of them demos. Right now it's on one record together called Both Demos. Up next, we got Cursed versus Count Me Out. This is a really cool opposition of styles here.

[James]

I want to. Yeah, we should call like Foster or somebody like just to weigh in.

[Colin]

This is certified freezing cold Canadian dark crusty HC versus Count Me Out, Capital hc. Pretty melodic.

[James]

Pretty melodic, but very straight edge.

[Colin]

Very straight edge. I like that.

[James]

It's Count Me Out.

[Colin]

It's Count Me Out.

[James]

It's Count me out. I 100%. 100%.

[Colin]

I agree. Best dude.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah. Come on, dude. Count Me out was such a cool kind of a flash in the pan band. Not in the derogatory sense. Just like they weren't around that long. I never got to see him. Wish it did. Very cool band. It's definitely coming up.

[Colin]

It's Catman. All due respect to Cursed, I hear that they were one of the first to really use. I mean, the Canadian, like, music grant system.

[James]

Oh.

[Colin]

Is such an insane thing to us Americans.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

That Canada just wants art and wants to support art. I always heard that curse, like, got a ban or something. I don't know. This is all hearsay, but I wish we had them. Them grants. I wish I was Canadian. Stout versus Dead Stop. Up next, Baltimore's finest versus one of.

[James]

Europe's finest ever again, though, Dead Stop wasn't around that long, right pretty, but my God. Yeah.

[Colin]

What a sick band.

[James]

Yeah. Belgium, man. They just.

[Colin]

They get it.

[James]

They just had a thing.

[Colin]

I love Belgium.

[James]

Yeah. It's crazy. Stout. I mean, it's funny now. I think it's. I think my mind would say stout at the time when early 2000s, I would say Dead Stop.

[Colin]

I think Stout's legend grows every day.

[James]

Exactly. Yeah. Ex.

[Colin]

The mythology of Stout is backed up by this insanely unique, aggressive, and shockingly, the band is, like, high IQ hard music.

[James]

Mm.

[Colin]

Baltimore, dude. Gut instinct. Next step up, Stout. All these, like, Dying fetus, you know?

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Like, this is. These are peers, and these are these, like, brilliant, secretly brilliant musicians other than Dying Fetus, who's obviously brilliant writing. Writing hardcore in a way that I've never heard outside of Baltimore.

[James]

Interesting.

[Colin]

It's. It's got to be Stout here.

[James]

I. I fully agree. Yeah.

[Colin]

Dead Stop. What a band.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

It's that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Sleep is one of the greatest records I've ever written, and that's a fact. Pardon this interruption. We hate to interrupt this fiery debate. Surely that's happening.

[James]

You guys are all screaming at your. Your car stereos and TVs, or however the hell you watch us.

[Colin]

But, no, I get it. You're saying no. Modern life is war. And I'm saying no. But what I am saying is this episode is brought to you by Guilty Party, the greatest menswear store in North America.

[James]

That's right, baby. We are continuing on with independent Ad Month here on Hard Lore. And guess what? If you don't know, now you know. Guilty Party is owned and operated by the Drummer foundation, our dear beloved friend.

[Colin]

Championship champ Hammett, one of the greats. And you know what they offer all of the greats. Ironheart316.

[James]

Free note. Red Wings.

[Colin]

True cloth, dude. Full count.

[James]

Full count.

[Colin]

First of all, the free note. Modesto, I think, is my favorite gene in history.

[James]

Ooh.

[Colin]

I have three pairs now. Multiple colors, multiple weights.

[James]

Nice.

[Colin]

And I Rotate them throughout the week. I can't believe it. Full count is probably my favorite feeling. Denim.

[James]

Very interesting. I will have to check those out. I'm big on Ironheart. I just got a wall of it. They got them all. They get stuff all the time. The second it goes up, I go, damn, I wish I used Code Hard Lore.

[Colin]

I know. And then I honestly, I did on that deck jacket that went up and I think is now sold out. But they get new things every week.

[James]

They get new stuff all the time. They post about it all the time on their Instagram. They have a great website that has everything. They even have, you know, the stuff that's sold out still there so you can reference and see what you want. And Colin, what do they get? If they use Code Hardler, you're going.

[Colin]

To get 10% off and free shipping on any order over $300. Which if you're ordering denim that's supposed to last you your entire life is going to be over $300 boots that will last you your entire life. Yep, it's gonna happen.

[James]

That's right.

[Colin]

Beautiful jackets that are meant to be worn your entire life. Code Hard Lore, you're gonna get taken care of, champs. Got you. Guilty parties. Got you. This episode is also brought to you by Timeless Coffee.

[James]

Brand new. We're very excited about this.

[Colin]

This is first time, long time here. I've been drinking Timeless for many years because as many of you know, many of you may not know, Timeless is, is the very first all vegan roastery and bakery in the country.

[James]

They sent us a little care package. Tried the cookies, tried some beans. My place smells great. Everything was delicious.

[Colin]

Dude, the cookies, you kidding me?

[James]

The cookies are baked and shipped within 24 hours of being ordered.

[Colin]

That's right. And if you use code Hard Lore site wide, you're gonna get 15% off. And if your order is over $40, you're going to get free shipping.

[James]

Guess what? That's. That's a medium sized bag of beans. You're going to get that free shipping also for anybody who lives in the Bay Area or really just kind of anywhere around any either of the Timeless locations, you can place an order and just go and pick it up. Just go and enjoy. Go check it out. Tell them Hard Lore sent you not.

[Colin]

Only for coffee, not only for cookies, but they do these beautiful custom cakes.

[James]

Really?

[Colin]

Oh my God. Look at some of them here. It's insane. I want one right now. I may take a drive. I'll let you know if I do. They also offer coffee Subscriptions, you can get one for yourself or you can give one for somebody else.

[James]

You know what I like is the fact that if you already have the subscription, you can still use code Hard Lore. And it you still, you get even further savings.

[Colin]

It's unbelievable. They offer multiple blends, multiple grind sizes, multiple bag sizes, multiple frequency options. Timeless Coffee. DIY Hardcore punk ethics run through the bones and the DNA of this beautiful company. Even some of the vocalists of some of your favorite bands have also worked there. Joseph from Tsunami roasted there for six years.

[James]

I didn't even know that.

[Colin]

Brandon from Big Boy Coffee Head. Yeah, he was there.

[James]

Dude, can I tell you something?

[Colin]

Can I tell you something?

[James]

He was there.

[Colin]

I can tell you something. Timeless coffee hard lore. 15% off. This episode is also brought to you by Mills Vintage. The greatest collection of vintage hardcore punk metal memorabilia on the Internet in existence. Also just an incredible archive for old hardcore designs. Very often for reference.

[James]

Very good point. Mills Vintage is one of the most curated collections of vintage shirts I've actually ever seen.

[Colin]

It's for ball knowers. Buy ball knowers. Vic I've known for half of my life now. He is. He's a. He's a hardcore lifer. He's put in the work. He knows everything about every shirt. So if you have a question, just send the shop a message. He wants to buy your stuff too. So send him some pics. He'll take it off your hands. We'll get it from you. If you're in New York or la, stop by the store, get something in person. Try it on.

[James]

That's right. For anybody who saw our Episodes With Speed or Chappelle Lacy, we visited the Varsity location in California and we visited Mills Vintage. We went through everything in there.

[Colin]

I've given this man my life savings. I don't have a 401k. I have 4001000 shirts from Mills Vintage and our beloved MAD Vintage. So visit millsvintageusa.com and use code HARDLORE to get 15% off site wide on some of the greatest hardcore punk metal shirts ever made. Okay, come back. Kid versus Ramallah.

[James]

I think we're gonna be at an impasse on this one, big time, because. Because I love Ramallah, truthfully. But the demo and Is it Turn it around was the first lp and then a lot of people ride for the next one. The Wake the Dead, I mean, that was like.

[Colin]

Kids in my high school were like wearing Comeback Kid shirts. And I seen them at. I've seen them in Justin Bieber shirts the week before, you know, Right. The way that. The way they cross over is truly insane. To me. It's Ramallah, no question.

[James]

Yeah. To me it's. It's for what we're talking about. We're not talking about preference for me. I think it has to become back in.

[Colin]

Who the fuck do we call for this?

[James]

No one. No one from the East. No one east of Chicago is allowed to weigh in on that. So what's the furthest? Who's. Do we know anybody in Seattle?

[Colin]

Like, yeah, they. I think that. I mean, how about. How about Aldo from Human Garbage?

[James]

No, no, he's gonna say Ramallah.

[Colin]

I think you'd be surprised.

[James]

Okay, here we go.

[Colin]

All right, everybody, we've got Aldo from Human Garbage here. The mayor of San Fernando Valley. One of the greatest people to ever live. Aldo, we are tasking you with something very important. We are doing a bracket to Crown the best 2000s hardcore band of all time.

[James]

Okay?

[Colin]

And we're stuck at an impasse on Comeback Kid versus Ramallah.

[James]

Now explain fucked up decision.

[Colin]

Yeah. So I picked. I picked Ramala Bo pick Comeback Kid. This isn't. This isn't like who's most popular or preference who. Prep. This is just the best man.

[James]

All right? 15 year old, he's gonna go, come back.

[Colin]

And there you have it. And you. And you were that. You were there. When I was a kid, we were there.

[James]

Some of the craziest shows. Yeah. Ramallah. I never got to experience that because I feel like that was like more East Coasting, you know? I don't think they ever came out to la.

[Colin]

They did. They played a matinee with Righteous Jams, I think Shattered Realm and I must.

[James]

Have been like 15.

[Colin]

We were young.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

I remember Jeff Gunnels had a bunch of Cold's Life stuff at the table. It was amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

But.

[James]

All right. I saw. Come back here to show a lot of times and they always were insane shows.

[Colin]

I agree. Thank you all though. I appreciate you. See ya.

[James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

I told you. I told you.

[James]

All right. I. I stand corrected. But I'm glad he said that. Listen.

[Colin]

But dude. But a whimper and kill celebrity, dude. I listen to him all the time.

[James]

Ramallah legitimately has one of the heaviest riffs ever written.

[Colin]

Which one?

[James]

Which song is that?

[Colin]

Is this the End? Unbelievable, man. Love him so much. I understand. Come back. Kid winning here.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Let's go to our next bracket.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

Terror versus Betrayed.

[James]

Listen, you knew it was going to happen.

[Colin]

This is double TXJ here.

[James]

Yeah, I know. So it is what Terror wins Of.

[Colin]

Course, Betrayed is somehow one of the only melodic hardcore bands that, like, I really connected with growing up. Like Gin. Like, it was so straight edge and it was so. It was the exact kind of angst I was feeling. A Ram. Amazing frontman. Terror is Michael Jordan.

[James]

I mean, truly, like, I fear for any of my favorite bands being put against Terror because it's a tough.

[Colin]

It's a tough today for any man against her. Okay. Cruel Hand versus World Collapse.

[James]

Huh?

[Colin]

Fascinating, right?

[James]

That's a weird one. I think it's got to be Cruel Hand.

[Colin]

On what basis?

[James]

On the basis of all the. All the. Like, the amount of music, the impact, the longevity of the band. You know what I mean?

[Colin]

How. How often are you putting on Deutschland? Deutschland into the Night versus Prying Eyes.

[James]

But that's not what we're talking about, is it not? I'm listening to Ramala way more than I listen to Comeback Kid.

[Colin]

So what are we doing?

[James]

That's not what we're talking about.

[Colin]

We're talking about the best one.

[James]

It's not preference now. It's the best one, I think.

[Colin]

No, because if it was preference, if it was the best one ever, then we'd be talking about ruin or Modern life is war. And who wants to do that?

[James]

Wait, why the hell are you talking about? What is happening on this show?

[Colin]

Me. To me, this is World collapse. Nobody's going to agree with me.

[James]

Nobody's going to like. I like. I like World Collapse. I would probably sooner listen to World Collapse than a lot of these bands now, but that's not.

[Colin]

I tour with Grouhan at their absolute peak. And it was amazing every night. Stole the show, sold all the merch in the world, have the craziest sets I've ever seen. I love all collapse so much.

[James]

So do I, dude. But that's. That's just. It's not what we're talking about.

[Colin]

Is it not. Is this not our show where we make the rules?

[James]

You're off your rocker. Call anyone.

[Colin]

I am firmly on this rocker right now. Rocking, rocking world collabs 24 7.

[James]

Call anyone.

[Colin]

Everything is gone.

[James]

I love it. I love it. Call anyone.

[Colin]

Yeah, call Andrew Baker. See what happens. Your world getting collapsed, motherfucker.

[James]

That's really fine.

[Colin]

It's Cruel Hand, but it. But it's World Collapse, but it's Cruel Hand. And listen, I get it.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Prying Eyes changed everyone around me.

[James]

Exactly.

[Colin]

I. Cruel Hand frustrated me. Until I toured with them and played with them a bunch. Because I saw them, they were playing like, yeah, that. See you doing that's the first thing you think of. But I'm looking on stage and they're wearing like crumb sucker shirts, right? And I'm. I'm ripping off crumb suckers at the same time being like. I'm like. I'm like, what are they? Like who is this? And then I get to know that I'm like. And everything makes sense.

[James]

I understand.

[Colin]

This is this. Obviously Quill Hands should win here.

[James]

Okay. Thank you.

[Colin]

But I love World Collapse. Only. Only. Heavens no.

[James]

Unbelievable. If you guys haven't listened to that, listen to that.

[Colin]

Dorsal and dorsalin. Into the night. Dude. Great masterpiece. Outbreak versus Guns Up.

[James]

This is an awesome one because this is 2000s personified. I was just thinking the other day about. And we talked about it a little bit with Skull, but Outbreak ran. Dude, they were. Because they. I think they had a video. Oh, it's funny that we were just talking about Cruel Hand too. We had a video or they had a video from one of the POS. It was like 04 or 05 posy numbers where they played that. And like the whole room, the entire room is going insane. And I remember watching it on YouTube and like just being like, oh, well, they're. They are the biggest band.

[Colin]

They that the Outbreak and the. Your scum shirt legit ran the world until one day they just didn't anymore. Yeah, it was kind of the same for Guns Up.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. Guns Up. It's funny, I remember hearing Guns up and people being like, oh, they're. They're ripping off Entombed or they're ripping off this. Or they're. They're doing no Warning. Like they're doing this stuff. But meanwhile, like all of us in our band, we were doing the same exact thing with every other band that existed. You know what I mean? So it was like a. Well, yeah.

[Colin]

Yeah. We all.

[James]

Yeah, that's what we do.

[Colin]

But I was 15, you know, so it was a little different. But. Yeah, I get what you mean. Was there a little resentment there?

[James]

A little bit, yeah. Just because. Well, just because I. Cuz there's.

[Colin]

You're saying like, yet you are ripping off Entombed, yet you still sound like no Warning. Which is kind of to me in retrospect, pretty impressive.

[James]

Awesome.

[Colin]

At the time I was like, that's not for me.

[James]

I got you. I fully agree. It's Outbreak.

[Colin]

I think it's Guns. Realistically, I do think better band. I know I'm crazy. I know.

[James]

Yeah, this is. This is.

[Colin]

I do think like. Like a. Like of just A better man.

[James]

Huh? I don't.

[Colin]

But also don't care to spend the time on. I mean, like, this is not something I'm like be like. Come on, man.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

You know, so if you're saying Outbreak, I'm fine with that.

[James]

I think it's. I think it's Outbreak.

[Colin]

And that. That, that just gives us the fun. Cruel Hand versus Outbreak matchup.

[James]

Very true.

[Colin]

That's fun. That's fun.

[James]

And I will be objective. Okay. Well, this sucks for them.

[Colin]

Yeah, it does. Hunter Demons versus Go It Alone. It's obviously Hunter Demons.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Go It Alone is. It's the. I mean the drummer of a lifeless, plagued, Absolute Ripper, dude.

[James]

Wow. Wow.

[Colin]

Absolute ripper. And you can hear it because he does the. All the time. And that's like.

[James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

His thing. So the drumming on this is like unbelievable. Sick band. Melodic hc very of the time.

[James]

And following band with fucking black breath.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

You know, one or two of the guys. I mean, crazy. Very talented.

[Colin]

Very talented. Hunter Demons is the hardest band of all time.

[James]

It's. It's Hundred Demons, dude.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Calm on. I am anxiously awaiting the new music.

[Colin]

Oh my God.

[James]

I am.

[Colin]

I love how open they're being about it. Like. Yeah, we just recorded hella songs.

[James]

Me too. It's awesome.

[Colin]

I cannot. I've heard some stuff.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

I've heard some stuff.

[James]

Very exciting.

[Colin]

One of the songs I put on and I just sat there thinking they've done it.

[James]

And what's funny too, man, is. Is like in the eyes of the Lord, kind of a different thing. Self titled, the very different sounding records, you know.

[Colin]

Both win here.

[James]

Both. Yeah. Both would win. Exactly. That's exactly my point. Fantastic.

[Colin]

Oh, a battle of Boston once again.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Righteous Jams versus Suicide File.

[James]

That's. This is a really tough one for me. This is right in my wheelhouse.

[Colin]

This is Righteous Jams all day.

[James]

I think so. But Suicide File were. Here's the thing about Suicide File.

[Colin]

I'm writing Righteous Jams.

[James]

Okay. Here's the thing about Suicide File. They were very political.

[Colin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James]

In a way that was like ahead.

[Colin]

Of their time because it was like. It was like not cool and.

[James]

And. But also not annoying. Not like preachy. It. It made me go like, well, who is Ashcroft? I had to like look up these people. You know what I mean?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Really? And like, dude was a history teacher. Niraj is in hopecon and this. And he's a Chicago guy.

[Colin]

IQ hardcore music high.

[James]

Yeah, very much so. So all due respect to Suicide File.

[Colin]

I love Suicide file in the 2000s. It was not what I was looking for at the time.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

I've grown to appreciate it. Righteous Jams was like.

[James]

I mean, right?

[Colin]

I lived and breathed for it.

[James]

Righteous Jams. Oh, I want. I've been wanting to tell the story for a long time. They played the Knights of Columbus with Colin of Arabia. And they played their whole set, and. And they were like, all right, thanks. We were Righteous Jams. People wouldn't stop going side to side. And they were saying, one more song, and they wouldn't stop. I remember he. He said, we don't know any more songs. Like, that was all of our songs. And Crucial Kyle said, play one again. And they played Busted again.

[Colin]

They just.

[James]

They just did it again. It was awesome.

[Colin]

Amazing.

[James]

Great.

[Colin]

What a band. That's. There's a rage of discipline I will enter into. There's only so many bands that. That have not come back. You know, the list is very short.

[James]

But I think I. I like. I like that when bands don't come back.

[Colin]

Me. I mean, me too.

[James]

It leaves, like. Think about. We were just talking about. About Straight Ahead. I'm glad Straight Ahead is coming back. I think it's cool. Craig made me very excited about it. Yeah. But it still had that mystique. It had that thing of like, oh.

[Colin]

Yeah, 40 years, you know?

[James]

That's fucking awesome. Righteous Jam.

[Colin]

Righteous Champs needs to wait another 30.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Colin]

And we're good to go. Up next, Internal affairs versus Lights Out.

[James]

You know what's funny? Even at the time when I was like, peak youth crew, I would still say Internal Affairs. I always loved Internal Affairs.

[Colin]

Lights out. Rbs, og rbs. Really great band. Internal affairs was a very early band for me that I fully connected to entirely in every. In all ways, visually, musically. Yeah, it felt like a. Because these were like the cool older guys here.

[James]

Gotcha.

[Colin]

You know? So I saw them and I was like, this is the. This is what I could be doing. And it was Internal affairs, piece by piece. Terror.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

So hypnotizing me.

[James]

Yeah. Love it.

[Colin]

Big part of why. Why I'm still around is just watching bands like this at the time. This is Internal Affairs.

[James]

Yes, Agreed.

[Colin]

And this is another one of those bands. They got it all, man. Fast, aggressive, good lyrics, fun lyrics, sometimes funny lyrics.

[James]

And, like, hard without being, like, beat down, you know. Another. Yeah, Another example of that. Yeah. Very good.

[Colin]

Bane versus Desperate Measures. Interesting matchup.

[James]

They just played recently.

[Colin]

They did.

[James]

Ryan went on stage. Did, did, did a quick. I think they did. Never enough time. I really liked Desperate Measures. I really liked the 7 inch. I had a shirt. Good band.

[Colin]

Young.

[James]

Bane. Bane. I mean, Bane was probably the first hardcore CD I bought. Give Blood was probably the first one I bought freshman year, you know what I mean?

[Colin]

First band I ever toured with. First US tour I ever did with. Bang.

[James]

Dude, I. I think it's undeniably Bane. They were everywhere.

[Colin]

Yeah, they were huge. Yeah, the.

[James]

Count me out. 7 inch, give blood. Come on. Or not. Caught me on. So can we start again? Sorry.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Weird slip. I. I just. Yeah. And I've told the story. Like, one of them wearing a Metallica shirt in that CD jacket.

[Colin]

Oh, yeah. Made you feel affirmed.

[James]

I was like, oh, it's okay for me to. If, like, this huge hardcore band is. Blah, blah, dude. Go to watch their Hellfest set. Oh, yeah, it's from, like, 2005.

[Colin]

Look, man, they. They. They didn't really stop running shit until they broke up.

[James]

Right?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Right? Yeah.

[Colin]

Desperate Measures. Great band.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

I really like that they're on here, but it is Bane, okay? It is Bane. Knuckle Dust versus Numb. An international act of war here. This is possibly the greatest United Kingdom hardcore band of all time versus the best example of insanely hard Japanese hardcore. Knuckle Dust, E Standard.

[James]

No shit. I didn't know that.

[Colin]

Real shit, dude. Doing all that in E fucking Standard.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

It's crazy, man.

[James]

I've seen Numb once. We played with him one time in Tokyo.

[Colin]

Numb still kind of blows my mind.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Colin]

Like, those are. Those are Mosh scientists. I think Knuckle Dust is so good. This is tough. This is really tough. I think I got to go Numb on this one.

[James]

I'm with you.

[Colin]

It's not easy.

[James]

No. Ah, but, dude, you know, I did.

[Colin]

Numb does these time signature things that I didn't.

[James]

I didn't even know they existed at the time. I did know Knuckle Dust existed at the time.

[Colin]

Well, you weren't Googling Japanese Mosh style.

[James]

No, seriously, I did. I remember. I watched that. But you're right. I wasn't going out of my.

[Colin]

You watched it, but you didn't study it?

[James]

I didn't live it. Yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

Me. When he. Like, I remember in 2004 or five, somebody being like, you know, Jeff, Japan has breakdowns. Me being like, what? What is that?

[James]

What?

[Colin]

And hearing them and sand and all these other bands and just. And being like, this is. This is everything I've ever wanted. But I do love Knuckle Dust. I think it's. No.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

I apologize to the United Kingdom, but I'm psyched Knuckledust is on here, dude. The early like UK bund em out beat down stuff I could not believe as a young lad. I punished them all day on MySpace. And if numb had MySpaces, I would have been punishing them too. So. Gotta be fair. Throwdown versus Death Before Dishonor.

[James]

When I first heard the song True Till Death by Death Before Dishonor, I of course assumed it was a straight edge thing. It wasn't, but I assumed it was. I. I must have had me about 15 Dr. Peppers. Like, I could not stop listening to that song. IPod on repeat, dude.

[Colin]

Friends, family, forever.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Masterpiece holds up.

[James]

It does hold.

[Colin]

What's the. What's the one after that? Is it. Count me in.

[James]

Oh, I'm not sure.

[Colin]

The hand on it. So good. Great fucking band. Held it down. Also a band that like brought a lot of people together.

[James]

Very true. Still, they were on B9 and still rocking. Still rocking. And they are Boss Tin, you know.

[Colin]

Yeah. And I was. I'm from California.

[James]

O.C.

[Colin]

Throw down. At one point in the mid 2000s.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Were the Chromax.

[James]

Yeah. This is a tough matchup. Legitimately.

[Colin]

Legitimately, very tough.

[James]

I was a bigger Throwdown fan for sure. Most.

[Colin]

I think they Haymaker.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Was like of an overnight phenomenon.

[James]

I. I remember I went to Best Buy to get it like the day it came out, you know.

[Colin]

And it was available at Best Buy.

[James]

Yes. Crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

They. Dude, it was like no joke. It had a Satisfaction esque impact on hardcore immediately. It was like, oh, this is the next biggest band.

[James]

I. Yeah, I love it. I would. I think I would pick Throwdown. I think that's my pick because.

[Colin]

But when you look at the full scope of the bank of each band, Throwdown immediately was doing Pantera and.

[James]

Well, not immediately.

[Colin]

I mean immediately, dude. The next one. What is the next one? Vendetta.

[James]

Vendetta. But that's still like 10 years after Beyond Repair, you know, I mean like, it's still like.

[Colin]

Yeah, but it's. Oh seven, you know.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

They were. It was. Haymaker was a hit and they didn't do another Haymaker.

[James]

But there's two LPs before haymaker.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Like you can't. You can't ignore them. Those are great records.

[Colin]

Yeah. All right. Sort of.

[James]

All due respect to Death Before Dishonor.

[Colin]

What makes me sad though, and I mean no disrespect to the guys in Throwdown and Beyond Repair out there, is the branching out and multi band thing happening. Yeah. I don't like when that happens, that's 20.

[James]

That's a 20. 20 decade issue.

[Colin]

I know, I know, I know. But this is.

[James]

I agree with you.

[Colin]

I just want to put it out there that it makes me sad when anybody does that. The morbid angel I am morbid thing.

[James]

Yeah. That's.

[Colin]

It makes me sad. Don't do that.

[James]

Figure out.

[Colin]

Be friends.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Make it work.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

But I also. When one is the full band doing the songs.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

What are you gonna do? Blacklisted versus the Warriors.

[James]

I like the Warriors.

[Colin]

Warriors. War as hell.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Front to back bang.

[James]

Yeah. I was a fan.

[Colin]

They got out there too. Definitely broke out. Over. Over. Blacklisted.

[James]

One of the greatest bands of this Certified festival.

[Colin]

Headliners.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's got to be blacklisted.

[Colin]

It's got to be blacklisted.

[James]

Blacklisted. Had an lady, a Philly and a.

[Colin]

Chicago record release never before done in 2000.

[James]

Couldn't believe it. Couldn't. Couldn't believe it.

[Colin]

I also didn't. I was. I mean, I didn't. I didn't get the second warriors lp. I didn't get it.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And I think. I know a lot of my peers felt the same. I think at one moment, warriors were like bound to be the biggest man. Many moments blacklisted carried the decade.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Not that that's what we're talking about.

[James]

No, but. But it is something to consider.

[Colin]

But I do think Peace on Earth. Heavier Than Heaven Beat goes on.

[James]

Yeah. The split.

[Colin]

Oh, man. Come on. Game over. From Ashes Rise versus Allegiance. This is again Brad Boat. Right, baby. Audio Siege. From Ashes Rise Stadium. Crust pioneers. Huge influence on one of my bands. Unbelievable. Holds up more than you would ever imagine. Allegiance, rbs, Many Bangers, Psalm. A thousand times pitted my little ass off from Ash's rise. Just. Just has stuck with me more and held up harder for longer. Yeah, I'd go for Mashes Rise.

[James]

It's fine with me. I have no dog in that fight. I wasn't. Wasn't into either.

[Colin]

I could get you. And there we have it. Our right side, round one. Lord. Only an hour and 19 minutes in, but this will go fast. Right side, round one. Down to nothing. Have heart. Count me out. Stout Comeback, Kid Terror Cruel Hand Outbreak. Hundred Demons, Righteous Jams, Internal Affairs, Bane, Numb Throwdown. Blacklisted. From Ashes Rise. Let's kick it off.

[James]

All right.

[Colin]

Left side, round two. Converge versus Bitter End.

[James]

Convergence, of course. Come on.

[Colin]

All due respect, you're going against Titan. You're going against Goliath here.

[James]

You're going against like the band of all band, dude.

[Colin]

I mean.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Colin]

Everybody loves Converge.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Jean Jacket ipa. Drinking dorks love Converge. Spin Kicking Freaks love Convergence. Circle Pitting Freaks love Converge.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Skanking freaks love Converge.

[James]

Yeah. It's Converge.

[Colin]

Cats and dogs love Converge. Because they don't. They don't know what he's saying either. Trapped Under Ice versus Shattered Realm.

[James]

It's got to be Ty.

[Colin]

It's Ty.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

We're moving now. We're cooking.

[James]

Yeah. Because. Well, I mean, that just. It just makes sense. You know, we're talking.

[Colin]

It just is what it is.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

This is where this is now. We're. This, this. It's like the John. The era defining bands are going to be very clear here.

[James]

Yes, agreed.

[Colin]

Franted versus Carrying On. Carry On. I love Carry On. I love Franted. It's Carry On.

[James]

Okay, good. I don't know enough about Frampton to argue, so I wouldn't be able to.

[Colin]

I. I get it.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Here's where what might be a tough one, Pulling Teeth versus Iron Age.

[James]

Yeah, I. I think for anyone from Texas, they're going to say that Iron Age should be winning the whole thing.

[Colin]

I think right now, I think this is Iron Age.

[James]

You do? Okay.

[Colin]

Yeah. And I think if you went track, even just track for track, objectively, Iron Age had no peers that really sounded like them.

[James]

That's very true.

[Colin]

Neither does Pulling Teeth kind of.

[James]

Yeah, I was gonna say kind of not pulling teeth either.

[Colin]

But I do think a lot of bands are still trying to sound like Iron Age.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

That's my piece.

[James]

All right.

[Colin]

No Warning versus Ceremony.

[James]

That's actually really difficult.

[Colin]

That's a fun one.

[James]

Cuz preferentially, I just like no Warning style of music more.

[Colin]

Me too.

[James]

And did at the time.

[Colin]

But dude, this is a really cool two side coin. Look at this decade.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Colin]

It's really like no Warning. Ran. Ran. Shit. Early half of the decade, kind of the first. Still, somebody like Ceremony came along.

[James]

Right.

[Colin]

And dethroned them. Well, no Warning kind of dethroned themselves with themselves, which we love. We love. It's really like, man, it's tough. I think. I think. I think I'm going no Warning.

[James]

Okay. Wow. I was gonna say I was gonna give it to Ceremony, but I'll go with no Warning. I'm like kind of happy for either.

[Colin]

Yeah, I love Ceremony. Always have.

[James]

You know what's funny too is the argument could be made that like. Well, after Rohnert park, like, they. They kind of change. They weren't as like hardcore.

[Colin]

Right.

[James]

Suffer, Survive, is a departure as well, you know, so it's funny. They are an interesting rotter park.

[Colin]

Was. Was 2010.

[James]

Wow.

[Colin]

So if we're looking 2000s in the context of 2000s.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

No warning.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

Cold world versus piece by piece.

[James]

I know what you're gonna say.

[Colin]

A hundred percent.

[James]

Yeah. So I'm fine with that because I do. Well, you know what's so funny though, is, is I think. Oh, War Hungry was a band that. Yeah, we. That up. God. That's just how it happens, guys. We just remember stuff in the moment. It's just how it works.

[Colin]

But the LP came out in the. In the tents.

[James]

That's true. That's true.

[Colin]

And a lot of. A lot of the consideration here was first LP in the 2000s.

[James]

Yeah, you're right. Good point.

[Colin]

Sorry. War Hungry.

[James]

I think a lot of the. The people from like northeastern Pennsylvania and in that area, they're all going to say that like, Cold. Cold World was the Piece By Piece or was the Iron Age of their area.

[Colin]

But. But way bigger, way more influential and like many could say, made way for title fight to come and. And change music. Great point, but Piece by Piece better than the Rolling Stones. I think it would be unbelievably biased if Piece by Piece won this bracket. Okay, but isn't that what this show's all about?

[James]

Fuck off. No, I think. I think it's Cold World and I think that's objectively true. Sorry, you did it to yourself.

[Colin]

I'm trying to think if I should challenge. I don't know who I would call though.

[James]

Right? It is a good matchup, to be honest with you.

[Colin]

It's a really fun matchup. Yeah, it's very time and place. Think about this, dude. Tara's first show supporting Piece by Piece or second show or something.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

I love Beast Puppies so much.

[James]

I had the 7ish right when it came out. You know, I remember I was. I was in.

[Colin]

So awesome.

[James]

But all right.

[Colin]

I don't want to hear the bullshit, you know? Yeah, that's the thing.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Piece By Piece over Cold World. I don't want to hear it. That's. I'm. I'm. I'm a Piece By Piece guy and it is what it is. But I'll give it up to Cold World. Here's a fun 1. Mental versus tragedy.

[James]

Now that's an interesting one.

[Colin]

Now here, I'll plant my flag here for tragedy.

[James]

Really?

[Colin]

Yeah. All due respect.

[James]

Anybody.

[Colin]

All right.

[James]

Call somebody who's. Who cares about the thing that the show is about. Which Is hardcore. Not fucking Crust stadium and themic nonsense.

[Colin]

I'll let you pick.

[James]

You'll nobody.

[Colin]

Nobody. No, no. Nobody in harm's way.

[James]

What about. What about former members?

[Colin]

Hell no.

[James]

What's funny is called caution. Caution? Yeah. Who? Hofacker too. He would pick Tragedy. Who's good?

[Colin]

Who's an objective, fair minded individual here.

[James]

You think Bob, he responded. So he's like available, but I feel like he might be not crust pilled.

[Colin]

You know, I think he's a. He's a dynamic guy.

[James]

He is. Should we call?

[Colin]

Let's call Bob.

[James]

Call Bob.

[Colin]

I'll call.

[James]

Now remember, we're talking hardcore bands. That's the name of the bracket is a hardcore band. Okay, Just word it that way.

[Colin]

All right, Bob, we've got Bob Wilson here fy a fest. I'm sure most of us are on our way there as we speak. Bob, we've got a fucking doozy for you. All right. We are crowning the best 2000s hardcore band of all time. We're at an impasse in the. In the twilight of the second round and we're tasked tasking you to break this tie between Mental and Tragedy.

[James]

Jesus Christ. Fuck, dude. I mean if we're going, I obviously love Tragedy. Vengeance is one of the best records ever. But you gotta go Mental. I'm sorry.

[Colin]

All right, I get. Listen, I get it. But that's the fun of this show, isn't it? Nice.

[James]

Yeah. I feel like I'll let you down. I'm sorry.

[Colin]

No, you, you. You did what?

[James]

I feel bad.

[Colin]

I don't know.

[James]

You did what?

[Colin]

All right, all right, all right. Thank you, Bob. See you in a few hours. Bye. That's fun.

[James]

That was good.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Mental. It's mental.

[Colin]

Listen, I get it.

[James]

I don't think Mental's winning, don't get me wrong, but there I think.

[Colin]

Dude, I just think Tragedy could win a like best 2000s music bracket, which.

[James]

If that's what we were doing, then it would be a different discussion. That's not what we're doing. It's not music lore. It's hard lore, baby.

[Colin]

Here we go. American Nightmare versus Rise and Fall.

[James]

American Nightmare.

[Colin]

There we go. There you go.

[James]

It just is. You know what I mean?

[Colin]

Yeah. So our left side round two winners converge. Trapped under ice. Carry on. Iron Age. No warning. Cold World. Mental and American Nightmare.

[James]

Wow, that's a good.

[Colin]

That's fun.

[James]

I like it.

[Colin]

All right, right side, round two. Here we go. Down to Nothing versus Half Heart.

[James]

Similar. How interesting?

[Colin]

Similar, you know, straight edge ideologies. Two Bands I really agree with. Every time they say something, one band is screaming at their son. One band is screaming into the. Into the J. The sun over the James River. It's Half Heart here, right?

[James]

It's Half Heart. Yeah. Yep. I mean, is like the band of Boston for the last however many years. You know what I mean? Despite the hiatus, you know.

[Colin]

Oh, changed nothing. Only made them more popular. We got Count Me out versus Stout. It's fucking Stout.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

Thank you. It's absolutely style.

[James]

I would for sure pick Count Me out just for the record, but I wasn't into Stout at the time, so I can't really.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

You know what I mean?

[Colin]

Yeah. But I think the way that Stout has held up and the way the legend has grown every day.

[James]

Dude, permanent sounds fucking awesome.

[Colin]

It's great. But that, like, I also think it. That's like certified melodic hc.

[James]

Yeah. But some of them get passes. Have Heart gets pass.

[Colin]

I don't know why. I agree.

[James]

I don't know.

[Colin]

I'm to this, like, I'll put on Stout right now and be like, wow, this has not aged today.

[James]

Got you.

[Colin]

Come back. Kid versus Terra.

[James]

Sorry. Come back in. I love you. The people love you. Sounded great. It's terror.

[Colin]

It's terror.

[James]

It's terror.

[Colin]

Cruel Hand. This is a. This is a crazy one, if you know the lore. This is. This is inter. These are the same kind of. Some of the same guys. Cruel Hand versus Outbreak, Portland, Maine versus Portland, Maine.

[James]

I think because of all the considerations we had when we were talking about Cruel Hand versus world collapse. It has to be Cruel Hand.

[Colin]

Earlier I said Outbreak ran shit until one day they didn't. That next day. Yeah, Cruel Hand did.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

It's Cruel hand for sure. 100 demons versus righteous chain.

[James]

I think it's got to be Demons.

[Colin]

It's got to be Demons. God, all due respect to the jant. To the RJs.

[James]

Righteous Gems was like, legitimately one of my favorite bands when they were around, like, during this time period. I couldn't, as I've said, could not get enough of that Boston DFJ locking out stuff.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

100 demons.

[Colin]

Has anything held up as. As good as, you know?

[James]

Well, it's. It's just so interesting too, that, like, you get two flavors.

[Colin]

Yeah. You get Coca Cola and Dr. Pepper.

[James]

Yes. Yeah. That is actually what it's like.

[Colin]

It's crazy.

[James]

Wow.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

It's.

[Colin]

It's Internal affairs versus Bane now.

[James]

Now, how objective can you be here, Colin? I wonder.

[Colin]

I can't be. Yeah, it like. Yeah. Bane made A bigger impact. I know every lyric to every Internal affairs song, and I always will. This is this. I have a clear bias here. I say Internal Affairs. Yeah, the best. Best of. You know. What are you putting on between the two right now?

[James]

Right now. Internal affairs for sure.

[Colin]

I think we have our winner.

[James]

All right. I don't think it's true, but.

[Colin]

What does true mean?

[James]

We. We do this every time. We do these brackets where we, like, we have. This is what we're talking about. And then the. The. The whole widens.

[Colin]

I'm always just talking about the best.

[James]

What does that mean?

[Colin]

Colin means who's better.

[James]

What does better mean?

[Colin]

Who's doper? What would you rather put on right now? I think that means something.

[James]

Okay. Fair.

[Colin]

Am I wrong?

[James]

I'm with it.

[Colin]

And I was. That was. They was talking to me, dude.

[James]

To you.

[Colin]

And I didn't want to start again.

[James]

No, no.

[Colin]

I wanted to move on.

[James]

I'm good with it.

[Colin]

Numb. I'm so sorry. Numb versus Throwdown here.

[James]

Come on.

[Colin]

Listen. If you've never heard Numb.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Press play. They're going to blow your mind. And I'm.

[James]

Stop it, stop it, stop it. It's Throwdown.

[Colin]

Of course Numb is better.

[James]

No, I think Put on the Edge is strong. The song. Unbelievable. Weird song. Still strong was some of them.

[Colin]

I think Num was just talking about. I don't know what they're.

[James]

I know what they're saying. Yeah. Come on.

[Colin]

Nobody we call is going to agree with me. So I'll go throw it on.

[James]

I'll give it to you because you're wrong about it. Yes.

[Colin]

Okay.

[James]

Thank you.

[Colin]

So good.

[James]

Numb rocks.

[Colin]

So good.

[James]

I had a. I got a long sleeve when we played with them, and it was on a crazy Japanese blank. And it fit like a small. Like it could never work.

[Colin]

Might fit you now. Burst out of that thing. It'll be fun. All right. Blacklisted versus for Mashes Rise.

[James]

Blacklisted. It has to be blacklisted. We're talking about 2000s hardcore.

[Colin]

That's when From Ashes Rise existed. This isn't about who's drawing more people at Chain Reaction.

[James]

That's some of it. What it's about.

[Colin]

We've considered Best of who's Better.

[James]

Blacklisted.

[Colin]

I don't know.

[James]

Blacklisted.

[Colin]

I think blacklisted is incredible. You're gonna pick From Ashes Rise never put out a record that their entire fan base turned on.

[James]

Which record are you inferring?

[Colin]

Anyone past Heavier Than Heaven.

[James]

That doesn't matter which.

[Colin]

As somebody who's done That I know. I know Pain.

[James]

No warning.

[Colin]

Masters Rise doesn't.

[James]

No warning. Did that for a lot of people.

[Colin]

Yeah, that's.

[James]

It's just not a consideration. That doesn't matter.

[Colin]

Yeah. They're up against Cold World. You know, they're coming up. We're not there yet. If this is. If this is. Listen, if I'm filling out my bracket.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

For Master's Rise is winning.

[James]

Okay, we gotta call somebody because that's crazy.

[Colin]

Who are we calling?

[James]

Call somebody where? From Ashes Rise from. I don't even know.

[Colin]

Pnw, Portland.

[James]

Okay, so just nobody from there and nobody from Philly, obviously. Okay, you got to tell me who you're gonna call because if you pick some. Some music head.

[Colin]

I won't. Yeah, I won't. I won't call a music head. I can't call my brother.

[James]

What about Martin?

[Colin]

That would be an interesting. Because he'd be pretty objective about it.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we've got Martin Stewart here. He's going to help us settle a quick debate. Oh, God. Here we go. Yeah. It's time, Martin. We are in the middle of the best 2000s hardcore band of all time bracket. Okay? We're at an impasse deep in round two. We're hoping you can settle it for us.

[James]

I hope so.

[Colin]

Blacklisted versus From Ashes Rise. Oh, man. I mean, I love both of those.

[James]

Bands a lot, but I. I'm gonna stick to hardcore because to me, From.

[Colin]

Ashes Rise is, you know, a little too crusty.

[James]

Stadium crust.

[Colin]

Are they not hardcore music, Martin, Stop it.

[James]

Stop it. You know, stop it. Subjective, but in my personal opinion. I can see Bo talking, but I can't hear anything.

[Colin]

He's saying. Stop it. No, he's saying, keep going. Keep going.

[James]

I personally wouldn't call them, you know, a hardcore band, but I. I love.

[Colin]

Them just as much.

[James]

But, yeah, I'm going. Blacklisted. This specifically because of. We're unstoppable.

[Colin]

That.

[James]

That record is like flawless front to back for me.

[Colin]

Yeah, I'm with you. All right. Thank you so much. Love you too.

[James]

Bye. Bye.

[Colin]

Listen, I knew it was. I knew it was coming. I just wanna. I just want. From Ashes Rise to I. I. Great band. Obviously Blacklist was gonna win.

[James]

You're the worst person I know, dude. You drive me insane.

[Colin]

Why? We're making a show, baby. I need to make a show. It's a show.

[James]

I'll tell you what. I'll listen to From Ash's Rise tonight on my drive, okay?

[Colin]

Dude, you're going to be like, what have I done?

[James]

Uhhuh.

[Colin]

You know. You know Oppenheimer, you know that guy? You're gonna feel a lot like him. Blacklisted wins. And there we have it. Our second round winners from the right side are. Have Heart, Stout terror, cruel hand, 100 demons, internal affairs, Throwdown and Blacklisted. Oh, okay. Now it's time for round three. It's getting wet and wild out here. And now we have this very first matchup in round three. Is finals worthy.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

Converge versus Trapped Under Ice.

[James]

Yeah, like, that is legitimately, really difficult, I think to.

[Colin]

To find a winner here. We must focus on the word hardcore. Converge is so much more than that.

[James]

You're right.

[Colin]

You're like truly out of the box. One of one.

[James]

Yep.

[Colin]

Original, dynamic, creative, one of a kind band trapping her Ice God tier hardcore music.

[James]

Amazing songwriting. Like Tui songwriting is bizarre and catchy and cool, which can also be said about Converge, ironically. But I fully agree with you. We're talking about hardcore. I don't think Kurt was ever getting up there thinking like, okay, what's going to make the kids spin kick where.

[Colin]

That's all Tui.

[James]

That's exactly right. So I think. I think for the sake of this discussion, and that's exactly how I would like to frame.

[Colin]

Should be TUI 2000s hardcore music.

[James]

Yes.

[Colin]

Which converges more than. Much more than.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Tui wins. Carry on versus Iron Age.

[James]

Take a fucking guess, buddy.

[Colin]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It is Carry On.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And I think the impact that they made with a 7 inch and NLP impossible, you know, really impossible to do today.

[James]

Really crazy.

[Colin]

Iron age. Great seven inch, two great LPs. Great singles. Highly influential to the last 10 or 15 years.

[James]

Yeah, that. That for sure.

[Colin]

Carry On. Highly influential to the next. To the last 25 years.

[James]

Yes, exactly.

[Colin]

Like all the. There's a lot of that we cut off here that is just like bad Carry on clones. And somehow. That somehow Carry on made work and all these other bands could not. I think it is Carry On.

[James]

Yeah. I mean, I know it's good. Yeah. I don't really. I'm not. I'm not an Iron Age guy. I just didn't. It wasn't. I never got it.

[Colin]

I got you.

[James]

I was a big Carry on guy. So.

[Colin]

Carry on it is decided. No Warning versus Cold World.

[James]

This is a tough one to not have my bias because I love no Warning. I like Cold World. I love no Warning.

[Colin]

I think. I think Cold World lp. I just. I think if you go LP for. To it for lp, you know?

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Then it. Then it's. It is no Warning.

[James]

Okay, good. I agree with that.

[Colin]

Like 7 inch demo. 7 inch LP demo. 7 inch is where it's. It's really tough because ice grills. Cold world 7 inch.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Unbelievable. Genuine classic. Changed. Changed the game. No Warning. When you. When you factor in ill blood, it gets. It gets a lot harder. I think I got to give it to no Warning here.

[James]

Okay, I'm. I'm happy to agree with that.

[Colin]

Okay.

[James]

For sure.

[Colin]

Yeah. There we go. You know what's funny is Billy Graziotti recorded the Cold World LP dedicated to babies.

[James]

Really?

[Colin]

Yeah. It's crazy. Very, very clean record. It's crazy. Mental versus American Nightmare.

[James]

So that's hard.

[Colin]

I go and here just putting that out there.

[James]

I kind of think you have to. Oh man. But then Planet Mental was so cool and I didn't. I didn't love down to We're Underground, you know, I didn't love the Give up the Ghost and on stuff. Really. It was background music and the year one stuff. But then having that revelation the other day that an is just kind of dark. Floor Punch. Pause this right now if you're listening. Put on the Ice Age Comes or Ice Age Cometh, whatever the A song is. And then listen to changes by Floor Punch.

[Colin]

It's the same thing.

[James]

It's just the same thing. Like kind of redone.

[Colin]

But dude, what's crazy about Mental is like nothing sounds like that. Yeah, they try in a crazy. In a crazy way. It's hardcore that you cannot replicate. And I think a lot of that is. Is it Greg, the singer's name? Yeah, his voice.

[James]

His voice is so unique. Yeah, unique for sure. DFJ's drumming the greatest of all time. This was. This was like peak DFJ too, in my opinion. I think it's where he kind of figured out. I mean, I don't really know. Love to know his story someday. I don't really know, you know exactly how that where that all came about. But Mental from the. And you know, this seven inch on. I. I don't know. That's tough one. I think going an makes more sense because I do think. Yeah, I think so. I think so.

[Colin]

Okay.

[James]

That. That one hurt. That was actually tough for me.

[Colin]

That was tough. That was tough. So that means our round three winners are trapped under ice. Carry on. No warning. An American Nightmare.

[James]

We're getting into like my favorite bands.

[Colin]

Are we ready for right side round three? Have heart versus stout.

[James]

Come on.

[Colin]

Stout all day, baby.

[James]

No fucking way.

[Colin]

Listen I get it. We're going to give it to have Heart here.

[James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

Sheer impact, depth of discography. It is what it is. Straight edge, you know. Love that groundbreaking ban.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Could headline anywhere in the world today and it'll sell out.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Stout is just this mythical.

[James]

Yeah, I love it. I love the. The legend, you know. Yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

Have Heart wins.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

Oh, no. Stout lost to have Heart.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Great job, Stout. Terror versus Cruel Hand.

[James]

That's terror, of course. And I think singer of Cruel Hand, who is now in terror, would agree. I think, 100%.

[Colin]

100%. You know, terror makes it once again 100 demons versus internal affairs.

[James]

Demons, baby.

[Colin]

It's demons. It's demons for sure. Yeah. This is both of my. Both of my heart biases.

[James]

Yeah. Split in half, Connecticut and la. Just.

[Colin]

But I was. I was Connecticut first, you know, Connecticut takes it here. Throw down versus Blacklisted.

[James]

I was a bigger throwdown fan because when blacklisted was around and. And really, really doing stuff, I was also touring and playing. Touring with them. I'm going to say blacklisted.

[Colin]

I would go blacklisted.

[James]

Yeah. I think. I just think that's objectively true.

[Colin]

All right, there we go. There we have it. That was fast.

[James]

That was quick. Yeah.

[Colin]

Down to the wire here. Our right side round three winners are have heart, terror, 100 demons, and blacklisted. Holy shit. All right, guys, it's time for the quarterfinals. Steven, do a crazy graphic here. Explosion, Eagle, Sirens, and Margaret from Bye Bye Birdie. And from Grumpy Old Men. All right, left side, quarterfinal. Trapped Under Ice versus Carry On.

[James]

So this is where the size of the catalog has to come into play.

[Colin]

Longevity and depth must be a factor here. And with that in mind, it must be Trapped Under Ice.

[James]

Fully. I fully agree. And I love Carry On.

[Colin]

Both bands created so many clones. Trapped Under Ice's influence are now festival headliners.

[James]

Yes.

[Colin]

Carry Ons. The influences are not on this bracket. Maybe that's. Maybe that's biased, but I don't think it is. They're nowhere to be seen. Carry On. One of the greatest bands ever.

[James]

Like, probably one of the greatest bands ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. True.

[Colin]

It must be Tui.

[James]

Yep. Agreed.

[Colin]

No Warning versus American Nightmare.

[James]

Now that's interesting. I'm going to go. No warning.

[Colin]

Me too.

[James]

Perfect. I did not want to argue about that one because I don't know why. I don't know why.

[Colin]

I mean, I think you look at us now and what we like and we love Mad Ball, you know?

[James]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll tell you this. I know every word to Ill Blood.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

Front to back.

[Colin]

I'm not smart enough to know every word on background music.

[James]

Exactly.

[Colin]

I do think. I don't like a lot of music that sounds like a.

[James]

No, neither do I. Love a. Yeah, kind of melodic.

[Colin]

It's weird kind of melodic, but in a hard, aggressive way.

[James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

But no Warning was just capital H, capital C. Until they were weird singing some 41 produced band, which I.

[James]

Still. Incredible. So that put on Scratch the Skin off of Suffer Survive, get to the.

[Colin]

Point.

[James]

The Breakdown and Scratch the Skin is one of the heaviest things that they ever did. It's incredible.

[Colin]

All right, so that means our left side semifinals are trapped under ice versus no Warning. That's fun. And our right side quarterfinals, we've got have Heart versus Terror. Hey, I think it depends on who you ask.

[James]

Let me ask you this. Which one of them didn't take a hiatus?

[Colin]

Terror. Which one has their 12th LP on the way?

[James]

Terror.

[Colin]

Which one has 11 great LPs?

[James]

Yeah, I just think, like, they never stopped. They never stopped. They changed shit the second it came out. And they have continued to set the standard for what hardcore is to this day.

[Colin]

They'll also support anybody.

[James]

And they were kind of one of the first bands to do that, too.

[Colin]

To be like, oh, billing doesn't matter.

[James]

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

[Colin]

You're bigger than us.

[James]

Cool. Get in front of people.

[Colin]

Yeah, we'll do it.

[James]

Awesome. Yeah, it's it, dude. Yes.

[Colin]

Terror.

[James]

Terror.

[Colin]

Have Heart.

[James]

Great work.

[Colin]

You made it so far. You could have gone to the finals in other circumstances. 100 demons versus blacklisted.

[James]

Now, this is tough because I would say demons, but I know there are people who would say blacklisted for sure.

[Colin]

Of course there are, but they don't host this program.

[James]

Just because we agree doesn't mean we're right, you know?

[Colin]

No, but it's. This is our show.

[James]

You're right. Okay. I'm trying to even think if. If calling anybody's even worth it.

[Colin]

I think, sure, let's do it.

[James]

James would say Demons. I know. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just trying to.

[Colin]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Sure. There's. Look there. People are screaming at the phone saying, blacklisted for sure. H. Demons is the hardest hardcore band of all time. Does that mean nothing?

[James]

All right.

[Colin]

Does that not mean they're one of the best?

[James]

I just wanted. I. I want the discussion to happen. So I'm. We did that. So I'm fine. Because I just think Black Listed importance, kind of.

[Colin]

It can't be overstated, Cannot be downplayed.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Unbelievably important band. Like I said, Heavier than Heaven. An unmastered version of the album leaked on the Internet.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And people loved it so much that they pre ordered every copy of the record out of, like, spite to this leak. They were like, damn, this unmastered, unfinished thing is unbelievable. Let's buy every copy. The motherfucker didn't wear George did not wear shoes for 10 years. Jumping around nails, spit everything on there. Fearless eye for an eye.

[James]

Unbelievable.

[Colin]

You will never roam the home that I've roamed. I'm sorry. I don't know. That's a tongue twister. Great George. One of the greatest lyricists and frontmen of the decade. Hunter Demons. One of the hardest. The hardest hardcore band.

[James]

Yeah. Certified. Yeah. All right. Demons. That seems wrong.

[Colin]

And, you know, this is all just seeding, you know.

[James]

True. That is true.

[Colin]

Like, if Half Heart was somewhere else, they'd probably be here, right here. If Half Heart was on the other side, they could be in the finals.

[James]

Blacklisted vs demons is honestly really difficult. That's a very difficult one. Yeah.

[Colin]

That's fun. It's a fun show. We should call some people just to see what they say.

[James]

Yeah. What's up?

[Colin]

All right, we're here with a. With a pitch black car that contains Josiah Hofflinger from Criminal Instinct. Josiah, we're in the middle of our best 2000s hardcore band bracket, and we're. You know, we already have our answer here, but we want to get some second opinions on this for fun.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

We are in the semifinals here. Quarterfinals here. And one of the matchups is 100 demons versus blacklisted.

[James]

Oh, are you kidding?

[Colin]

That's.

[James]

That's not even.

[Colin]

That's 100 demons. There we go. We're just getting some second and third and fourth opinions here.

[James]

Who made who.

[Colin]

Who made this bracket? We made the bracket. 100 demons already won this. They already won, but we wanted to. We just wanted to get some words on it.

[James]

That's not even close.

[Colin]

There we go. You had it. All right. Thank you so much. Have a great day. It. Oh, dude. Jamie Morgan.

[James]

He's going to pick Blacklisted.

[Colin]

I don't know. That's good.

[James]

Oh, sure. All right, call.

[Colin]

Let's get some perspectives here.

[James]

Dude, Demons. He's in Chicago right now. You're calling him here.

[Colin]

What's up? How you doing in the van? Are you camera ready?

[James]

I'm on camera right now.

[Colin]

All right, Jamie Morgan here. Jamie we're in the middle of our 2000s hardcore band bracket. All right. We're in the quarterfinals here. Okay. We already have our answer here. But we just want some different perspectives on this next matchup. 100 demons versus blacklisted.

[James]

Go 100 demons. Wow. Okay.

[Colin]

PAHC going 100 Ds, but I with blacklisted heavily. Yeah.

[James]

And I love the weird strings one, you know, I love that.

[Colin]

You do. I do that. The violin part is so good.

[James]

The whole album's unbelievable and the world hated on it because it's a sick, sick world we live in.

[Colin]

That's exactly what I wanted to hear.

[James]

Yeah. But both unbelievable bands. 100 demons is just, you know, when you think about hard, it's kind of like the definition. So what can you do? How can you beat it?

[Colin]

What can you do?

[James]

You can't beat them in physical combat.

[Colin]

That's for damn sure. 100 true.

[James]

So we have to give in.

[Colin]

We have to give in. Thank you, Jamie.

[James]

Peace out.

[Colin]

Have a great day now.

[James]

I like what he said. I like that he defended the. The record.

[Colin]

Should we get one more?

[James]

Let's get one more. If we go three for three, that's.

[Colin]

Let's call Chris.

[James]

Call Chris. I'll call him. I'll call him. He's always. He's always doing too. He might be busy. Oh, yes.

[Colin]

Are you.

[James]

Are you camera ready? We have a question for you. I'm not camera ready, but I think. I think you look beautiful.

[Colin]

Let me see. Let me check my hair out. What's up? Put him in front of the microphone.

[James]

Yeah. All right. Chris Mills here, everybody.

[Colin]

So handsome.

[James]

So handsome. Chris. We are doing a bracket for the best 2000s hardcore band. So 2000 2010. We are in the quarterfinals at this matchup. And we're just getting opinions. We just want an opinion. We kind of already have our answer for this, but we want to know what you think of this matchup. And I know you're a fan of both bands. We got hundred demons. 100 of them versus blacklisted. Damn. Yeah. That's a really hard one.

[Colin]

Holy.

[James]

You know what? Yeah. So, yeah, I'm gonna go with 100 demons. Okay. Both lp's incredible. Not one skip. Not one skip on either record. And honestly, just like sonically changed the game. I mean, I think about like that second l. That second Hundred Demons. Yeah. Lp. And it was like maybe one of the best sounding heavy hardcore records I had heard. Yeah. At that time, you know. Yeah. The self titled is unbelievable. Dude. I also got hit real quick. I got Hit with An versus Mental earlier and it, like, broke my brain. Broke my brain. Literally. Like two very sentimental bands to us. Fully agree. We went with am. We went. We went with an.

[Colin]

Yeah, Yeah.

[James]

I would. I would probably. I'd probably do the same. Okay, good. Just given, like, just given when I first heard American Nightmare and the trajectory that it kind of like set me on. Exactly.

[Colin]

All right.

[James]

You know, perfect answers. Christopher, thank you so much.

[Colin]

Thank you, Chris.

[James]

All right, guys, see you soon.

[Colin]

Good night. So. Thank you, Chris. That was. That was. That was all we needed to hear. It's three for. Three for 100 Ds.

[James]

There you go.

[Colin]

100 demons goes all the way.

[James]

There you go.

[Colin]

That means our left side semifinal is now.

[James]

Oh, no.

[Colin]

Trapped Under Ice versus no Warning. And then the right side semifinal is terror versus 100 demons.

[James]

I mean, we can't do it to Scott. Not again.

[Colin]

Left side trap and Rice versus no Warning. Trap and Rice wins.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Colin]

You know, wait.

[James]

Just did more.

[Colin]

Did more. Went out on top, came back on top.

[James]

And also kind of. Yeah. And also kind of like spawned angel dust. Spawn, Turnstile. You know what I mean? Like, Spawn.

[Colin]

The thing that were. That we're all chasing. Everybody's chasing now. DUI is still, like, putting that on. Now I hear something. Some new detail and nuance that I think, like, how did. How did they know to do that?

[James]

Yeah, Yeah. I think. I think that is just objectively true.

[Colin]

Trapping Rice is going to the finals now. Right side semifinal is terror versus 100 demons.

[James]

Hey, I think. I think. But I guess divas didn't really take a hiatus. They just didn't put out any music they would play. Yeah, but I still think I just. It has to be Terror.

[Colin]

It has to be just sheer consistency.

[James]

Unapologetically hardcore, you know?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

No, there's no other, like, kind of metallic. No, hardcore, man.

[Colin]

No. Except for the damn. The shame. Pretty, pretty.

[James]

That's true.

[Colin]

That's true. But aside from that. Capital H, A, R, D, C, L, R, E. Terror advances to the finals.

[James]

Wow.

[Colin]

And there we have it. The destined matchup. What I kind of knew it would be all along.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

Trapped Under Ice versus Terror.

[James]

You know who I think we should call about this? James Vitalo.

[Colin]

Let's. Let's get our. Let's get our. Let's do our reason first here. Trapped under ice. Three LPs. A perfect 7 inch. A perfect demo. Terror. A perfect demo. A perfect 10 inch.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

Perfect split. And they're about to put out their 12th LP.

[James]

Well, and one with the underdogs is perfect too.

[Colin]

Oh, no. I mean, I. I think they're all unbelievable.

[James]

And then. And then also, just like the. The resurgence with Keepers of the faith.

[Colin]

You know, trapping the rights. Genuine sea change towards the end of the decade.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

One could say their efforts really affected the 2000 and tens more than the 2000s.

[James]

I would say so.

[Colin]

But it brought what was happening in the 2000s to a screeching halt. After Sound and Fury 2008, things were different.

[James]

Yeah. But the Life and Death demo, like. Like the second I heard that, it was just like, oh, this is. And then finding out, too, that it was the guy from Carry On.

[Colin]

The guy from Carry on and the.

[James]

Guy from Buried Alive.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

You know what I mean?

[Colin]

And Allied TUI caused a. An overnight sea change in. In hardcore as a whole. Terror with a demo changed what the words California hardcore meant, you know, These are two. Two monumental, groundbreaking bands. My gut is Terror.

[James]

I agree that that is when we decided to do this list. That was my pick. It kind of doesn't matter who they were seated against either. It just kind of doesn't matter.

[Colin]

If it was Half Heart, the answer would be even faster if it was. Who else could have made it to the end here, you know?

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

A n. Terror wins. No warning. Terror wins.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

World collapse. Close, but Terror wins.

[James]

Yeah, I just. I don't. I just. I. That feels right. They're the band. Yeah.

[Colin]

I think if this conversation. If this was like 2000 to 2005 and then 2005 to 2010, this would be a little harder.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

But overall, terror has never stopped for a second.

[James]

When did Secrets of the World and Big Kiss Good Night come out?

[Colin]

Secrets of the World, 2009.

[James]

Okay. And then Big Kiss.

[Colin]

Big Kiss of night was 11.

[James]

Yeah, that sounds about right. Okay.

[Colin]

So that's the thing. Big kiss good night. And then they were like, hey, we've got all these other bands now. We're going to take a break.

[James]

Yeah, I think. I think considering that, too, you kind of can't count Big kiss good night. Kind of.

[Colin]

Yeah. It must be terror.

[James]

It must be terror. It do be terror.

[Colin]

Do be terror. Do we even bother calling?

[James]

I. I would. It's funny. Vitalo. I would love to know his opinion on that. Let me call James. Let's get James.

[Colin]

I have a fun idea.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

Let me see if I can pull this off.

[James]

Okay.

[Colin]

I'm gonna call justice, and then I'm gonna call Scott. I want to hear what justice has to say about Terror. I want to hear What Scott has to say about trapping dress.

[James]

You're a producer. You know, you're a genius.

[Colin]

Let's see if we can make this happen. Oh, Vital is calling me. This will be fun.

[James]

Hey. Mommy's fucking God.

[Colin]

All right, so we've got James Vitalo here. He's calling. And Jake Lounsbury is there as well. He's calling for the first time this episode. James, I haven't seen you in so, so long. We're in the finals now. Who's that? Is that Rick? Big Rick, Sam. That's what's up. All right. We're in the finals. It's not. You're gonna be in because we're in the finals. And before I talk to those bands, I wanna. I wanna get your thoughts on Terror versus Trapped Under Ice.

[James]

It's bias.

[Colin]

It is biased. Was that awesome? It's biased.

[James]

Here's the. Oh, my God, it's the finals. I'm holding my rib in extreme pain right now because of seeing Trapped Under Ice in LA a few weeks ago. Terror is one of the most consistent hardcore bands ever. I gotta say, Terror, but I love Trapped Under Ice so much.

[Colin]

And it.

[James]

Trapped Under Ice literally changed the hardcore, the trajectory from amazing core to what it is now. They deserve so much credit and respect, and they're incredible. Having said that, I think that Terror is maybe the most consistent hardcore band ever. And anyone else being in the top of this list is a. Is a tragedy.

[Colin]

I agree. I've got Scott Vogel calling me as we speak. Thank you, James.

[James]

Hey, tell him I said hey. Will do for a couple more days.

[Colin]

Will do. Thank you. Scott Vogel, I need you to weigh in on something for me.

[James]

Does this happen to have to do with hardcore?

[Colin]

It does. It's fun. It's a really fun thing. Okay, here we go. All right, we have Terror vocalist Scott Vogel here. Scott, we're in the middle of our best hardcore band of the 2000s bracket.

[James]

We're at the end.

[Colin]

We're at the very end. The finals.

[James]

Oh, no.

[Colin]

The finals are terrorists and Trapped Under Ice. And I thought it would be fun for to hear your thoughts on Trapped.

[James]

Under Ice as well as justice. Yeah. Oh, man. You know what's funny?

[Colin]

Right? When you were talking about this, I.

[James]

Got a text from Patrick Kitzel, who is, like, the reason I found Trapped.

[Colin]

Under Ice and many other people. He just wrote me again, it's a.

[James]

Busky Kitzel group text. But my thoughts on Trapped Under Ice, man, they should win. Give it to them. Perfect live band, so much personality, unique style, all the records are great. Their demo is great. And Terror in the. I would say about 2009 ish to 2012.

[Colin]

We toured with them so much that we got really close with them as people.

[James]

And they're just. They're just amazing. Like, just amazing.

[Colin]

But I do.

[James]

I do want to say even being number two is pretty fucking awesome.

[Colin]

So.

[James]

It'S pretty, Pretty cool to hear Terror even in the running for this stuff. What else can I say about Tui?

[Colin]

What did I forget? Anything you want. Anything you've ever thought about them. Anything you've ever wanted to say.

[James]

What a bunch of maniacs, too.

[Colin]

What a bunch of maniacs.

[James]

Just the way a hardcore band's supposed to be.

[Colin]

Couldn't agree more. Thank you, Scott. We may be calling you back in a few minutes here.

[James]

All right. Have a good one.

[Colin]

You too.

[James]

Now, I'm predicting Justice says, give it to Terror.

[Colin]

Vitalo calling me again. Hang on. Hey.

[James]

It's not really a fair question. Well, here's the thing. If it was 2000 to 2010, I'd say terror. Yeah, 2010. And on 2010, and 2020 would be trapped under ice. Like you're asking me to. Hold on. Let's turn the heat off. Like you're asking me to pick between a band that I grew up listening to since I was 15 and a band that I met when I was 20. I resent the question.

[Colin]

You can't. You have to. No, you answered it. You answered it. Whether you resent it or not. The 2000s, 2000-2010, who is the best band from that era?

[James]

Chapter 9 wasn't fully formed. They had a couple years, therefore.

[Colin]

I get it.

[James]

What you guys are doing is great for hardcore music, but this is just a bad question.

[Colin]

No, the first half of your sentence was. Was exactly the point.

[James]

Who else is on there?

[Colin]

You'll see.

[James]

We'll send you.

[Colin]

I can't. I can't. You were two and a half hours in. I can't use airtime on this.

[James]

Are you still playing Wolves?

[Colin]

Oh, yeah. I'll be there. See you later. Bye.

[James]

Peace. But. Oh, he can't hear me. Just screamed in your ears.

[Colin]

Okay. Okay. Let's do it. We have Justice Trip here. Trapped under ice. Angel Dust. Hardcore Justice. We're in the middle of crowning a winner for the best 2000s hardcore band of all time. Oh, man. And we're down to the finals. The finals are Terror and Trapped under Ice. Oh, my God. And I wanted. I just got some words from Scott about Tui, and I wanted to get Some words from you about Terror.

[James]

I'm wearing a Terror shirt right now.

[Colin]

That wasn't planned. That's what I was putting on. Come on. You just want me to give you some words about. Talk about talk. Terror. To me, there's undeniably no band with more consistent releases.

[James]

They've just been the top dogs for so long. It's, it's, It's a joke.

[Colin]

They're Michael Jordan.

[James]

You can have favorite releases from Terror, but there's not a bad release from Terror. You've never seen Terror play a bad show. It's. I don't even think it's a competition, but I'm very flattered that our name was put into that conversation. You know, that means a lot to me. But yeah, I mean, I feel you guys probably on the same page, right?

[Colin]

That's.

[James]

That's the band. Yeah.

[Colin]

Yes. But as the finalists, we wanted to, you know, give you the time. Yeah. And. And I wanted to get your thoughts as the co finalist of who are the. Who is the greatest.

[James]

Just.

[Colin]

Just want to throw this out there because I'm sure they were into discussion.

[James]

But just what I. My favorite hardcore band. I think my favorite hardcore band of. Of my lifetime is Criminal Instinct. Pretty, Pretty flawless discography.

[Colin]

I would, I would say 2010's band. Okay. We're talking more specifically.

[James]

Yes.

[Colin]

The first, the aughts and years. Yeah.

[James]

Yeah.

[Colin]

I mean, again, just. That's my favorite band, but love it.

[James]

Your favorite and the greatest are different conversations. It's like, is Forrest Gump my favorite movie?

[Colin]

No.

[James]

Is it the greatest movie? Yes.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[James]

It's like there's.

[Colin]

There's no conversation about what hardcore band.

[James]

Is greater than Terror.

[Colin]

It's just like every band that you love the most growing up, you find.

[James]

Out that Terror holds has. It's just that it's.

[Colin]

And it's authentic and it's lasted a long time.

[James]

It's just like again, they've been the.

[Colin]

The heavyweight champs for as long as.

[James]

I've been really active in hardcore music. And I, I don't think it's ever gonna stop. Like, I just think they keep getting cooler somehow.

[Colin]

And that's. That's your answer?

[James]

That's the winner? I, I don't even.

[Colin]

I don't know how you got like you're doing like a vote or something or.

[James]

I don't know what the deal is.

[Colin]

But I'm telling you what the answer.

[James]

Is, and it's there.

[Colin]

That's just it. There we go. There you have it. He said it. And that's it. Thank you, Justice. Thank you. Have a great day. Love you, bud. Love you too.

[James]

Isn't that beautiful?

[Colin]

Couldn't have said it better myself. The fight.

[James]

The.

[Colin]

One of the finalists said that the other finalists is the winner. And. And so did the other one.

[James]

And so did the other one. Yeah. I think it's Terror. And I think we are. I just think it makes all the sense.

[Colin]

Our winner is terror. The best 2000s hardcore band, Terror. Who can argue that?

[James]

No one. And you shouldn't.

[Colin]

And you shouldn't. So go through the discog today. There's so much gold in there for you to discover and for you to enjoy and listen to all 64 of these bands and all the 64 that we forgot. Put the War Hungry Hilfi on. You're gonna love it.

[James]

Yep.

[Colin]

But Terror and Trapping the Rice, our finalist today. Unbelievable game changing. Groundbreaking bands. Congrats to every band for being on here. Congrats to Tara. The winner. Best 2000s hardcore band of all time. What a better way to ring in 2026, you know?

[James]

Yeah, it's.

[Colin]

We'll see you all at FYA this weekend. You can tell us all about it, who we missed and how mad you are.

[James]

Mm.

[Colin]

Thank you all for watching. We love you so much. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Mad Vintage.