Todd Jones (NAILS)

Summary

HardLore Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Todd Jones (NAILS)
Release Date: March 20, 2025
Hosts: Colin Young, Bo Lueders
Guest: Todd Jones (Vocalist of NAILS, founding member of Carry On and Terror)

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I. Introduction and Early Influences

The episode begins with Todd Jones sharing his perspective on the intricate process of writing a record, likening it to “putting together a 200 piece puzzle in the dark” (00:00). Hosts Colin and Bo enthusiastically welcome Todd, highlighting his extensive background in the hardcore, punk, and metal scenes, including his roles in Carry On, Terror, and as the vocalist of NAILS.

II. Early Musical Journey

Todd reflects on his early introduction to music, citing Nirvana as a pivotal influence that ignited his passion (03:20). He discusses how mainstream bands like Green Day and The Offspring inspired him and his friends to delve deeper into the hardcore scene by exploring labels such as Fat Records and Epitaph. A significant turning point was when his friend Joel introduced him to Minor Threat’s discography, solidifying his love for punk (04:03).

Todd Jones: “Nirvana was what set off music for me...” (03:20)

III. Involvement with Carry On and Terror

Todd recounts his tenure with Carry On, emphasizing the challenges and growth the band experienced before he joined in November 1999 (13:38). He details the recording of the "Stabbed in the Face" record and the subsequent lineup changes that led to the formation of Terror. His collaboration with Ryan Baker and the transition from Carry On to Terror marked a significant evolution in his musical career.

IV. Formation of Sound and Fury Festival

Together with fellow musicians, Todd co-created the Sound and Fury Festival, a bi-annual event dedicated to celebrating hardcore, punk, and metal. He reminisces about the festival's early days and its growth over the years, acknowledging the hard work and vision that went into establishing it as a cornerstone of the music scene.

V. Formation and Evolution of NAILS

The genesis of NAILS is discussed in depth, highlighting Todd’s collaboration with John Glue and later, Taylor Young and Andrew Seba. Todd explains his songwriting process, which involves gathering riffs without preconceived notions, allowing the music to organically take shape over time.

Todd Jones: “When writing a record, when you're starting from scratch, writing a record is like putting together a 200 piece puzzle in the dark.” (00:00)

He elaborates on the band's dedication to maintaining a consistent and energetic sound, comparable to legends like Slayer and Motorhead, ensuring that each new record delivers what fans expect while pushing creative boundaries.

VI. Writing Philosophy and Recording Process

Todd delves into his approach to songwriting, emphasizing instinct and energy over meticulous planning. He believes in the importance of restraint, selecting riffs that cohesively build into impactful songs rather than forcing excessive elements into a single track.

Todd Jones: “Restraint is a very big quality about making music... knowing when not to do something.” (93:02)

He shares anecdotes about refining riffs for songs like “Wide Open Wound,” where the band experimented with different tempos and structures to achieve the desired intensity and flow.

VII. Touring Experiences

A substantial portion of the conversation centers around Todd’s extensive touring history with various bands. He recounts memorable tours with Terror, including the challenges of European tours and the logistics of booking and routing shows independently.

Todd Jones: “I'm not letting a European promoter route a tour, you know, play here 12 hours, 16 hours... it's just so challenging sometimes.” (100:11)

He highlights the camaraderie and shared experiences on tours, such as the infamous Chicago shows and the formation of lasting friendships within the hardcore community.

VIII. Recent Activities and Future Plans

Todd discusses recent activities, including the release of new NAILS records and upcoming tours. He expresses excitement about collaborating with new band members like Andrew Seba, whose contributions are already influencing the band's evolving sound.

Todd Jones: “Nails was made to incite the feeling of slam dancing, moshing, stage diving... Nails is Nails at the time was a reflection of me wanting to play like more like heavier and brutal stuff.” (34:24)

He also touches on side projects and collaborations, such as working with Soul Fly and contributing to other bands’ recordings.

IX. Personal Philosophies and Reflections

Throughout the episode, Todd shares his personal philosophies on music, creativity, and staying true to one’s vision. He emphasizes the importance of responding to what fans want while maintaining artistic integrity, ensuring that each release resonates with the hardcore community.

Todd Jones: “If you're able to find yourself in a good band that people attach themselves to... just do it again. Give them more.” (33:53)

He reflects on moments of self-doubt during the creative process but underscores the fulfillment that comes from producing music that both he and his fans are passionate about.

X. Memorable Quotes

• Todd Jones (00:00): “When writing a record is like putting together a 200 piece puzzle in the dark.”
• Todd Jones (93:02): “Restraint is a very big quality about making music.”
• Todd Jones (33:53): “If you're able to find yourself in a good band that people attach themselves to... just do it again. Give them more.”

XI. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with heartfelt thanks from both Todd and the hosts, expressing mutual respect and anticipation for future collaborations. Todd underscores his appreciation for the hardcore community and his commitment to continuing his musical journey with NAILS and beyond.

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Note: Timestamps refer to the position in the transcript where the quoted material can be found.

Transcript

[Todd Jones]

When writing a record, when you're starting from scratch, writing a record is like putting together a 200 piece puzzle in the dark.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

The way that works for me is the first thing I do is I, I gather riffs. I don't sit down and say I'm going to write a song like this or I'm going to write a song like that or I'm going to write a song to. With this intention. I just play guitar and some. You know, if I play guitar for 30 days straight, I might not come out with one riff like. That's why it takes three years to write a Nails record.

[Bo]

Hello, welcome. It's hard Lore time. How are you doing Beau?

[Colin]

Doing very well, Colin. How are we today?

[Bo]

I don't know if we could be better. I'll be honest with you. I'm full of in and out. I've had a beautiful day. And now we have an incredible guest here at Hardlore headquarters. This is decades in the making. Really. One of the most requested guests in the history of the show.

[Colin]

It's true.

[Bo]

A guest who from day one we were like, man, wouldn't it be crazy to have Todd on. The day has finally come.

[Colin]

Here we are.

[Bo]

Because today to my right here we have and let me, let me start from the top here. He was one. He was the founding member of Carry on, one of the greatest. No, not a founding member of Carry.

[Todd Jones]

I joined Carry on Top, joined Carry.

[Bo]

On a little later. He was in Carrion. He was a founding member of Terror. He is the vocalist of Nails. He is the co creator of Sound and Fury Festival. He's done it all and now he's here to tell his story. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome one of the greats, Todd Jones of Nails.

[Todd Jones]

I'm good.

[Bo]

Thank you for the correction. That was fantastic. That's what this is why we're here. Yeah. So how you doing? How's this year been for you? Nails is back in full swing.

[Colin]

Yep.

[Bo]

Full time touring band. How has that been?

[Todd Jones]

It's been lovely. It's been awesome. The scene is awesome. Everything, everything's been great.

[Bo]

Honestly, the growth in kind of all facets of music since, since you guys were last really active.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Is kind is insane.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And Nails is really witnessing it firsthand.

[Colin]

When I went to the show in Chicago where we saw each other pretty briefly, that was a room of, of like 20 people I knew and like 700 people I'd never seen before in my life. And I mean that in the like least derogatory way ever because it Shows that like Nails been bubbling just. Just ready under the surface.

[Bo]

As Todd would say. That's what's up.

[Todd Jones]

That's what's up, baby.

[Bo]

So tell me, let's go, let's. Let's go back in time now because we got. We, you know, we. We know where we are now. We got to figure out how we got there.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

So I want to hear about Todd as a young lad in the 805 finding hardcore music.

[Todd Jones]

Nirvana was. Was what set off music for me. I've done so many interviews and I say a lot of the same things over again, so I feel kind of redundant saying this, but that's how I fell in love with music. And. And then eventually, you know, Green Day and Offspring became mainstream bands and me and my pals really like that a lot. And we started buying cassettes and CDs of bands that were on thanks list from there and found our way to, you know, all the fat records and Epitaph stuff and then found our way to Dead Kennedy's and. And then one day my friend Joel, he. He had the Minor Threat complete discography on cd. He borrowed it from somebody and he played it for me. And that was it.

[Bo]

That was it.

[Colin]

So punk was first.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Bo]

Punk was first beautiful. And now you got Nails covering Minor Threat, covering bands like Straight Ahead, which I've always thought was so cool that you really never. Even in like your most aggressive metallic band that still fits within the ethos and honestly within the. The. The style of Nails. So you've never. You've never moved P. You've never given that up with is awesome. It's all part of the evolution. I know you love Guns and Roses too.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Appetite for Destruction is one of my favorite records ever.

[Bo]

You know, that was one of the first interactions you and I ever had in our lives was on Strange notes. I was 14 years old. Strange Notes was a message board that Todd co founded.

[Todd Jones]

Well, Riley. Riley founded.

[Bo]

Riley founded Todd. Todd. Todd's and I's first interactions were all on there. I was a little. Got banned a couple times.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

But before that I talked about as a 14 year old how much I love Guns N Roses. Specifically my favorite record to this day. Use your illusion too. Do you remember what you said to me?

[Todd Jones]

Did you tell me that was your favorite record? Yeah, I probably said something really rude.

[Bo]

You said go Appetite or go home. I've never forgotten it.

[Todd Jones]

It's a lot of filler tracks on that record.

[Colin]

There are.

[Bo]

But dude, the bangers are insane. Todd loves Guns n Roses. Yeah, and Nirvana.

[Colin]

How about that? I mean, I get. Guns and Roses is still not on paper. Guns and Roses I should love, but it's not.

[Bo]

Yeah, but have you ever seen him fiddle around with a guitar before? They play. Todd, it's blue scale.

[Colin]

Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Todd Jones]

Bo. Do you look at Guns and Appetite? Do you look at let's Appetite for Destruction in general? Do you look at that as like, like a hair metal record, not like a hard rock record?

[Colin]

No, I, I. So the thing is, is I loved VH1 behind the Music. And Guns N Roses had a really good one where they were like. We were, we were over hair metal. We just happened to kind of style our hair a certain way. But they, but they very, they very distinctly made it. So I always knew that they were like a kick ass band and not a Poison, you know, I knew that. And I don't. I. You know what I think of it as? I think of it as like Big Mac sauce. It's like the best selling thing ever. Everyone loves it. It's just not for me. I don't like it. It's not my thing.

[Todd Jones]

You guys really chill for fast food. Corporations don' we don't anymore.

[Colin]

We'll say slow down.

[Todd Jones]

Thanks.

[Colin]

We'll say in and out, spread, spread.

[Todd Jones]

In and out, spread.

[Bo]

In and out, spread. That's better. We're done with the corpse. Dude. We're, we're eating local. We're so skinny now.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bo]

Can you. It's. It's unbelievable. By the way, tell me about.

[Colin]

I'm going to send this to Stephen, but the last text message Colin sent before you arrived was maybe we try to eat 200 nuggets this year together. Together.

[Bo]

Anyway, tell me about finding the guitar.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, I did. So I, I was, I was listening to Nirvana and then, you know, I got into Nirvana and Metallica pretty much the same time because they were both on mtv. MTV was like really huge for my musical discovery.

[Bo]

Same.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

MTV X was, was really big when Taylor and I were young.

[Todd Jones]

Nice.

[Bo]

Which was all extreme all day.

[Todd Jones]

Damn. Now it's just ridiculous.

[Bo]

It was, it was great. I don't know if it made it to California. But you. I swear, it's. It was once more than just ridiculousness. 24 hours they had music on TV. It's crazy, if you can believe it.

[Todd Jones]

But one day, I don't know. I was just watching the Nirvana Lithium video and I saw their bassist, Chris Novicelage. He's like, you know, the video is like a live performance video and he Was like jumping around. I was like, that looks like fun. And my dad was a musician, so I asked him. I was like, hey, I want interested in trying this bass thing out? He's like, okay. Well, he had. He had a bass.

[Bo]

Bass first.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

Bass first. I. I like tried messing around with bass for a couple weeks and I don't know why, but I. But I was like, I think I'm gonna try guitar. I think I was bored with bass. Not because I was great at it, because I wasn't. I was, you know, starting out, but I. I felt like maybe I could make more like tonality with the guitar.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And you were right.

[Colin]

How old were you?

[Todd Jones]

Eleven.

[Colin]

Yeah. What was. What was the first guitar?

[Todd Jones]

A Fernandez Stratocaster. Like a blue Strat. It's like a Japanese made guitar.

[Colin]

It's the first question I have that I wrote down is, what's. What was the first guitar?

[Todd Jones]

I still have it.

[Bo]

Really?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bo]

Do you remember the first riff you ever learned on it?

[Todd Jones]

I mean, it had to be spells like Teen Spirit. Like, it had. It had. Either that or the song Lithium.

[Colin]

That makes a lot of sense.

[Bo]

That'll do it. That'll do it every time.

[Colin]

I had lost my first strap, my first guitar. I'd given it to an ex girlfriend in high school. Hadn't seen it. And over Covid, she contacted me. She's like, do you want this back? So I got it back.

[Todd Jones]

Whoa. Did it. So did it have single coils or did it have a humbucker in it?

[Colin]

Single coils.

[Todd Jones]

Okay. Yeah, mine also had single coils. And. Dude, do you remember discovering how buff a humbucking pickup would sound through an amp? Like, it was like I. I had. No, I had. I was too young to understand what pickups were.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

And then I had this Ibanez that had a. My friend had this Ibanez that had a humbucker in it. And I took it and I put into the amp and it was like, holy. What is this?

[Bo]

I could have done this the whole time.

[Colin]

Yeah. My next guitar was a Les Paul. Was the studio. And it was just like, oh, wait.

[Todd Jones]

So you went from a knockoff Strat straight to a Les Paul studio?

[Colin]

I went from a God, a Squire Strat to a Gibson Les Paul. It was an 8th grade graduation present from my dad.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, dude, that's a dude Les Paul in eighth grade. Damn, dog. I didn't get my first studio until I was like, out of high school.

[Colin]

Yeah, it was.

[Bo]

I've never had one, but I'm Much less good at guitar than both of you.

[Todd Jones]

So you're pretty good at guitar, man.

[Colin]

Did you. So your dad was Colin. You're. You're pretty good. You need to start. You can give yourself.

[Bo]

This is about. This isn't about me. Tell us about your dad.

[Colin]

Yeah, Todd, did. Was your dad. Was he like a musician? Was he doing stuff?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he. Yeah, he was a musician. He did his thing. He was, you know, he would perform at bars as like a one man band. So he'd have like a drum machine and bring a PA and play guitar and do cover songs.

[Colin]

Dude, that's Colin's final evolution. That's what's up.

[Bo]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to get some tips from him eventually. So between learning Lithium and. And joining Carry on, there's a gray area that I don't know too much about. Like, young teenage Todd finding straight edge, finding community in the 805. Like, who were. Who were the young corpsmen that you surrounded yourself with? Like, what was your. What was your circle like growing up?

[Todd Jones]

Well, a big one was when I started going to high school and I met Zach Nelson, who does. Or zach. Oxnard is 185 miles south.

[Bo]

And control retaliate.

[Todd Jones]

Absolutely.

[Colin]

Is 805 Oxnard. Is that.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Bo]

Ventura county event.

[Todd Jones]

Well, it goes. It goes pretty far, but yeah, Ventura county, it goes all the way up to like, Atascadero. It goes all the way out to Bakersfield. Oh, all the way to like Simi Valley and Agora Hills.

[Bo]

So was Zach Nelson your age or was he like your old head?

[Todd Jones]

Not my old head, but definitely a year older than me and a year above me in high school. Like, we. We were going to high school at the same time. Like when I was a freshman, he was a sophomore.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

So you guys came up together?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, that's. I think that's fair to say.

[Bo]

That's very cool.

[Colin]

That's my Chris Mills. Same exact.

[Bo]

Yeah, that's your Christmas. In Control was pretty early for him, right?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, he started in control 99. However, in 1996, when I was a freshman in high school, maybe 95 and 95, my friend Josh went to go try out for Zach's band playing bass. And I was like, oh, can I go with you? And I went and Josh tried out. And then after he tried out, I took the bass and I started jamming on it and I didn't think anything of it. And then the next day at school, Zach was like, yeah, we're not going to go with Josh, but we Want you to join the band.

[Bo]

It's like, dude, on bass.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, on bass.

[Bo]

So you're like, oh, I played bass when I was 11, I guess. But you know, this isn't really my life anymore.

[Todd Jones]

Well, how many people and how many people in hardcore bands like, oh, we need a bassist. Well, our friend can play guitar. Just throw a bass on.

[Bo]

Oh, that's the ultimate move. That's the best move ever.

[Todd Jones]

Exactly.

[Bo]

You got a good guitar player. You've got, oh, an excellent bass player.

[Todd Jones]

I learned that very early on. So.

[Bo]

So did you do it?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, yeah, I joined their band. It was awesome. I had my first vinyl appearance as like a 14 year old person through that band.

[Colin]

That's crazy.

[Bo]

I know people on vinyl for the first time at 38, you know.

[Todd Jones]

Dude, me too.

[Colin]

What was the band?

[Todd Jones]

It was a compilation put out by It's Alive Records called Localism.

[Colin]

Cool.

[Todd Jones]

And it was just Oxnard Ventura bands. And what was the band called? It doesn't matter. That's not the statement. That's the band name. And we were. We were the last band on the comp.

[Bo]

Like Localism.

[Todd Jones]

Localism.

[Bo]

I've got a knack for finding these things.

[Todd Jones]

I'll. I have a handful of them. I could give you one for sure.

[Bo]

I'm going to have a handful.

[Todd Jones]

Perfect.

[Colin]

Cops were cops. Used to be really fucking cool. When I was first getting into hardcore there was a Chicago hardcore cop that Organized Crime Records did. And it's how I found like every single band that would go on to be important to me.

[Todd Jones]

I loved comps around that same time I got the New York hardcore the way it is. Revelation Records comp. And it was huge for me. It was the first time I heard Warzone Bold, Youth of the Day and any band on that comp. It was the first time I heard it.

[Bo]

And were you already straight Edge by the time you joined? It doesn't matter.

[Todd Jones]

Probably.

[Bo]

Cool. That's what's up.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

So Carry on comes quite a bit later.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Do you have any bands between then?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, yeah, we did. We did. It doesn't matter. And then we did another band which I don't know, didn't really do anything but. And then we did. Stand your ground.

[Bo]

Right.

[Todd Jones]

And then, and then. And then I joined Carry on in November of 1999.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Bo]

November of 99 and now we're here. But other than Carry on are there band like you, you've dabbled in writing for other bands as well. The Ability song you wrote. Oh my gosh, dude, I love that song. If Birdie's listening. Birdie. You got to get on. Streaming some blacklisted tracks you wrote? No, no, just perform.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Okay. Are there any other bands? We'd be surprised to hear Todd riffs in.

[Todd Jones]

Australian band called no Apologies.

[Bo]

Really great song.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Survival.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

Like a mid tempo, like, CRO Mag song.

[Bo]

I think it's their best song. But we're here at Carry On. This is fantastic.

[Colin]

You know what's funny about Carry On? Before we get into it, please, I. Obviously you think about it as like the verb to carry on. Like, go on, continue, carry on. But I just got done with all that flying and I can only think of it now. It was like luggage. Just a carry on.

[Bo]

It's a double entendre.

[Colin]

It's a double entente, man.

[Todd Jones]

Were you gonna ask where the name came from? Bo?

[Colin]

I. I would love to know if, you know, if there's specific.

[Todd Jones]

I remember. So before there was Carry on, there was a band called Persevere. And it was. It was, you know, it was Ryan. And Ryan lived up in Atascadero and, you know, it was with some Atascadero, San Luis Obiscopo people. And they were. They're kind of more like, like, like Undertow style.

[Bo]

Cool. That's cool.

[Todd Jones]

Like mid-90s, chunky stuff, but also fast. And then. And then they decided to change, like, go more like straight edge hardcore fast, like Revelation record stuff. And I remember talking to him outside the Showcase Theater. It's like, yeah, we're going to rename our band to Carry On. Like, because we want to carry on the straight edge hardcore spirit.

[Colin]

Sick. Love it.

[Todd Jones]

That's what Ryan. That's what Ryan told me.

[Bo]

How beautiful.

[Colin]

How long had Carryon existed before you joined?

[Todd Jones]

Probably a year to a year and a half.

[Bo]

And did they were out there gigging without you?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, I mean, they were great. I mean, they, like. So they recorded this record called Stabbed in the Face, which had four songs on it, which was at the time, it was really good. I mean, I would still enjoy it to this day. And then the whole. And then Ryan. Something happened with all the members and it. So Ryan. It was just Ryan and then three new guys. Who was Jordan Johnson, Josh Loose, and I. I don't recall the drummer's name, but he was a good drummer and they wrote all these new songs and I think the intention was that they were going to keep the band name even though it was completely different band because they didn't want to screw over the person putting out the 7 inch record that they had recorded Gotcha because it wasn't out yet. So they kept the name and went forward. And I mean, they played a lot. They played a bunch of shows. There's actually a. A live recording that I have from a show that's very rare. Not only, like, maybe five people have it, and it's a whole bunch of pre Line Is Drawn songs.

[Bo]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

And they're just as good as A Line Is Drawn.

[Colin]

Whoa.

[Todd Jones]

And so, I mean, I can send it to you guys, but, like, I would love that. It's sick. It's. They were so good. They were my favorite local band or maybe just my favorite California band.

[Bo]

So you joined your favorite California band?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Bo]

And what was the lineup by the time you joined?

[Todd Jones]

The lineup when I joined was Ryan on vocals, Corey on guitar. Corey joined before I did.

[Bo]

Corey Williams.

[Todd Jones]

Corey Williams, Shout Out Corey, Love you. Bass player Josh Luce, he was still in the band. And then a fellow named Nat. I don't remember his last name, but Nat, he was a great. He was a good drummer. And. And before I joined as the 7 inch, the line is Drawn was getting pressed. It had already been recorded a couple months prior. And then with that same lineup, like In June of 2000, we went and recorded the. The 7 inch, the. The teamwork record, 7ish, with a tattoo flash on the front of it.

[Bo]

So tell me about. Do you have any anecdotes or memories of writing and recording that. That carry on 7 inch that you played on?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, yeah. I remember on a Friday, Corey and I, like, for some reason, drove to. From the Valley from. We were living at the Warner center off of Topanga. We drove from there to Dave Mandel's house or to Revelation Records where Dave worked. And when we. We drove from Dave's house to where we. We went from Revelations to Dave's house and Dave played us some of the new records that he was going to be releasing. And one of them was count me out 110. Yeah, it hadn't come out yet. And he played it for us. And I just like, sat or laid on his bedroom floor listening to that record with my mouth, like, wide open. Like, I couldn't believe that this band was so good, so powerful, and sounded so much like Chain of Strength. Wow. So.

[Bo]

So this count me out 7 inch changed the trajectory of.

[Todd Jones]

Well, it was 110, so it was the. Out is their first album, like. Like actual appropriate album. And then Corey and I. Well, Corey was driving. I was driving. Shot riding shotgun with him. Drove from Huntington Beach Or Garden Grove to Woodland Hills in rush hour Friday afternoon traffic. Crazy. Got home in. In the living room of our apartment. You know, we had a PlayStation. And then there was Corey's Mesa Boogie dual rectifier amp. And he played Tony Hawk. And I just sat there playing guitar for like an hour. And then I looked at him. I'm like, hey, does this sound cool? And I played the song roll with the punches.

[Bo]

Just straight up straight, start to finish.

[Todd Jones]

Probably just the.

[Colin]

And did you. So the. The 7 inch version of that song compared to the LP version is like the 7 inches a bit faster? Okay, I. I think if memory serves.

[Todd Jones]

I. I believe you.

[Colin]

Did you write it to be like. Did you want it to be as fast as. Like, the. Like that intro part is so fast. Did you. Did you. I know this. Maybe you didn't even think about it, but did you prefer it quicker or did you want it. Did you think it was too fast when you eventually recorded it?

[Todd Jones]

I didn't think about it, but also, like, I was very young and very new to recording, so I didn't think, like, that we should match the beats per minute from the teamwork 7 inch to what we were doing. Yeah, like we. Well, I mean, that shit was not recorded on a click, but I could have. At least we just recorded. I mean, you got. Also another thing. The person who played on the 7 inch and the person who played on the album are two different people.

[Colin]

Right.

[Todd Jones]

So I think it was just all by feel. It was just like when we recorded it with Kurt Ballou for the second time. Sounded fine to us.

[Colin]

Yeah. Yeah. Did you record it live or was that track by track for the album.

[Todd Jones]

Or the seven Inch?

[Colin]

Both, to be honest.

[Todd Jones]

So for the seven Inch, we record that in San Diego at a place called Double Time Studios. And I think we. I think we recorded it like, instrument by instrument. So, like, I played the scratch guitar tracks when. When Nat played drums, and then we filled out everything else. And same thing with Kurt's. Like, I'm doing scratches and Lucas was playing the drums. Huge.

[Bo]

So lifeless Plagued finally rolls around. It's time to do NLP with this kind of the. The. The almost final lineup. You've. You've. It's like a modern Straight Edge landmark at this time. Universally renowned, as far as I know, as far as my circle goes. It comes out, you plan it for a few years, you break up.

[Todd Jones]

We didn't plan for a few years. We didn't really.

[Bo]

A year?

[Todd Jones]

No.

[Bo]

Did it Come on, what? Oh, three.

[Todd Jones]

All month.

[Bo]

Interesting.

[Todd Jones]

Like so, all right, so this is what happened.

[Colin]

Yes.

[Bo]

Of War just didn't get to be enjoyed at all.

[Todd Jones]

I'll give you the dirt. We record that record by the end of April of 2001. The record, the actual record release date for that record, if you look on like Amazon or whatever, is like October 16, 2001. With that being said, we didn't play a show on that record until the first week of October. We had a one week, like weekend to weekend, so probably like eight or nine shows. Tour with the Hope Conspiracy. Over my dead body. God, there's another band in there. No warning. Played a couple shows. Okay, there's another band in there, but I'm forgetting it. And I'm sorry to the other band, I forgot, but we did like a week long, like, east coast tour and then a couple. Then like a week or two later, we played like a show at the Ojai Women's Center.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

And then.

[Bo]

And how are you? How is the response to the record at this time?

[Todd Jones]

Dude, it was a. It was amazing. Like, people. People really loved that record when it came out. Like, they. We didn't really have a big following before that record came out. Like. Like, I loved every show we played, but we would be playing. If we headlined a show, there'd be like 40 people there, which is fine. It's great. But like, when the. When the record actually came out and people started hearing it, it was like, it was like, oh, this is. This is real. This is like a real band. This is good.

[Bo]

Big time.

[Todd Jones]

It felt like people really got into it. And then in December, we played like our last show at the Troop of Door with Converge, Ho Conspiracy and American Nightmare and Planes Mistaken for Star.

[Bo]

This is all within a less than a year span.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, it's like, it's all happened in 2001.

[Colin]

It's crazy.

[Bo]

Big year for America.

[Colin]

Yeah. What else happened around that time?

[Bo]

We'll say that. I don't know if that contributed to Carry On's breakup at all.

[Colin]

Okay, I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong, Todd, but there was a How's your Edge interview from way back in the day. And I remember being like, oh, it's the dude from Carry On. Like, I got to read this. And you mentioned something, and I've always wanted to ask you about this. You mentioned something about a sample of Seagulls potentially being on, like, new Carry on music that you would, like, demoed or something. Do you recall what I'm talking about?

[Todd Jones]

We were going to do a split 7 inch with striking distance on Youngblood Records. And we had written, like, three songs, and at that point, like, I think Ryan and I had spun our wheels so much on that album that by the time we were, like, thinking about writing new songs, they had to be different. So we wrote, like, two or three songs, and I wish they still existed. Yeah, they didn't exist with vocals, but we had, like, demo recordings of them, and they were just. They were different. I mean, I can't see if they were good or bad.

[Colin]

Sure.

[Bo]

But they were different.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Where did the seagulls come in?

[Bo]

Yeah, the seagulls are just part of the magic, though. I swear you're on your seagull, dude. It's all good. We get it.

[Todd Jones]

Try to do something weird.

[Bo]

Of course. So why. Why the breakup?

[Todd Jones]

Oh, Ryan, stop being straight edge.

[Bo]

There you have it, folks. And do you look back at that now as like, damn, we're silly. We should have just kept going.

[Todd Jones]

It's different time that you couldn't. You couldn't do something like that.

[Colin]

And let's. Let's not kid ourselves. Part of the lure, the allure of Carryon was that, like, that it was over. Like, it was. That was kind of part of. It was just like. Like, I'm not going to miss the next one. And it made. It made for something. You know what I mean? So it wasn't in vain. What about the. The shirt with the lines on it, Todd? How'd you feel about that?

[Todd Jones]

At the time?

[Colin]

Yeah, at the time, I didn't feel.

[Todd Jones]

Very good about it.

[Bo]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Colin]

I think that's.

[Todd Jones]

That's why I felt disrespected.

[Colin]

Yeah. Okay.

[Bo]

Also fair.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

I. I've never seen one in the wild, so I don't know how many. How many exist.

[Colin]

I've seen one, and it's navy blue. I think I've seen one.

[Todd Jones]

One was taken off the back of person.

[Bo]

Oh, there you go. So there's at least two. Or there used to be.

[Todd Jones]

I have one.

[Colin]

Todd, do you have a favorite track besides Roll with the Punches? Because I know you love that song. Do you have a favorite track of. Of Carry On?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, all of them.

[Colin]

You got to pick one.

[Todd Jones]

I love Carry On.

[Colin]

I know. As you should. As you should.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, the tune, Broken Strings. It's. I think it's the third to last song.

[Colin]

Great song.

[Todd Jones]

Thank you.

[Colin]

Great song. My.

[Bo]

My.

[Colin]

My pick is so much of you. I loved that song.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, I love that song.

[Colin]

So good.

[Bo]

I'm. I'm an off my chest man, because, you know, I'm a. I'm a double kick, crazy spin kick guy.

[Todd Jones]

Well, it's. It was. It's a unique song on the album.

[Bo]

And that's what that's like. It's. You've given every youth crew band and Fast traders band this benchmark of, like, well, we can have one. You know, We. We got to do the Off My Chest on the record. You know, it's a. It's a. I feel like it's a noun, a verb, and an adjective. All together now. We got to do the Off My Chest. Okay. You put one massive, insane breakdown on this positive, not super positive, but fast, straight edge record. And it's okay because Carry on did it.

[Todd Jones]

So the last mosh part's a little out of character for what we were doing.

[Bo]

That's why it's awesome.

[Todd Jones]

Well, it worked.

[Bo]

It worked well.

[Colin]

It really works.

[Bo]

It still works for me to this day. So Carry on breaks up, 2002, rolls around, and you're writing some songs with Nick, Jet and what's the other fellow's name that co found?

[Todd Jones]

Scott Vogel.

[Bo]

And Scott Vogel. Who's the other guy?

[Todd Jones]

John Lacroix.

[Bo]

John Lacroix, right. Scott told us all about that.

[Todd Jones]

Who.

[Bo]

Who were you? Like, who poached Scott? I know John asked Scott to do it, but were you and Nick like, dude, ask the Buried Alive guy. That'd be awesome.

[Todd Jones]

So this is what happened December of 2001. You know, carry on breaking up. On John Lacroix website, there was an advertisement that said, I'm starting a band with Scott Vogel. We need a drummer.

[Bo]

So the concept was. Was on his website with just him and Scott.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, but remember, it was a different time.

[Bo]

Totally.

[Todd Jones]

It was just a different time. Like, so. So I, you know, I got my brain working. I'm like, hey, I have an awesome drummer, but I got to play guitar too.

[Colin]

Fuck, yeah.

[Todd Jones]

And so. And so we got together with John, wrote a song, sent it to Scott, and Scott was like, okay, this is cool, but I want something a little more like, you know, I know you're from Carry On. I really like the new Carry on album. I want something a little more in tune with that, because the song that we wrote with John was probably more like Buried Alive influenced.

[Colin]

Huh.

[Bo]

Interesting.

[Todd Jones]

And so we're like, okay, well, we can certainly do that. So Scott was living in Arizona at the time, and he drove out to California, and we got in a room, the three of us. John couldn't make the rehearsal, so we got in a room, just started the first song we wrote. Was another face.

[Bo]

And then Terror's born.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And that's that.

[Todd Jones]

It was dope.

[Bo]

Beautiful. And Terror's emergence, like, if you look back at Flyers at that time, the first couple shows, like, piece by pieces over Terror, but Terror's like, direct support every show. It emerged as this established thing of, like, okay, we've these guys paid their dues and Buried Alive and Carry on and was clearly working right off the bat. The songs were good, the reactions were good. What do you remember at that time? Just the reactions to things like the demo and Lois of the Low.

[Todd Jones]

It was overwhelming because Scott was very connected in like, for lack of a better term, like, you know, he was on a band in Victory Records, which at the time was like, a really big deal. Like a really. Like just a really big label, really elevated. And. And the Carry on world was not like that world.

[Bo]

Right.

[Todd Jones]

And the Bridge 9 world was not really like that world, so. But regardless, like, I had my connections in the Carry on world. He had his connections in the Buried Alive, Victory Records world. And it was an interesting pairing at the beginning that totally worked, but it had so much reach at the time.

[Bo]

That you weren't used to.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of. There's a lot of people that. I mean, there's just. People were into it. People were backing it. You know, I mean, Scott and even myself was like. Like, we were hustlers.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Like, Scott was. Scott was getting our demos out everywhere. Like, I think he sent like a hundred demos to Philadelphia to get passed out by his friends. Like, wow. We were just sending demos everywhere and, like, giving shirts to anybody. Like, not anybody, but, like, somebody was in a band, we'd, like, we'd make sure we gave them a shirt.

[Bo]

Smart.

[Todd Jones]

Like, it was just we. And. And it was cool. We traveled a lot and. And it was dope, for sure.

[Colin]

It was a little bit before my time. And I. I think you were still playing with the band, Todd, if I'm not. If I'm not mistaken, but Jim's Jim.

[Todd Jones]

Grimes birthday in Chicago, November of 2002.

[Colin]

You're amazing.

[Bo]

So that's the same year the demo's out. You're playing Jim Grimes birthday and a couple months later.

[Colin]

And that. That is like, an infamous, like, for everyone who was there. James was there. Like, it's. I. I just missed it, you know, my first show.

[Todd Jones]

Was it a skate park or was it a ymca?

[Colin]

It was a skate park.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Colin]

And, like, my first hardcore show was 2003. You know, I like. But when I came around people were talking about like it was a. A sea change. It was just like nothing else mattered. It was Terror. Like, that was the style, that was everything.

[Todd Jones]

It was a sea change. I mean, because I remember like, Trust Kill records, like, those bands were very, very popular. Like, those were like the popular bands in hardcore at the time. And by the time of end of 2002 and 2003, those bands were still very popular. But it was also like, oh, there's this other thing that's happening here. Like bands like Terror, the Promise, Death Threat really had their wings then too. What other bands there was. It just seemed like there was emergence of quote unquote, real hardcore. Yeah, I don't know. For lack of better term, I don't.

[Colin]

Know what else do you attribute that and terrorist success to the hunger for quote, unquote, real hardcore? Or do you attribute it to the essentially marketing that you guys are doing by handing out your demos and shirts and stuff like that?

[Todd Jones]

I attribute it to what people wanted.

[Colin]

Yeah. Yeah, I think.

[Todd Jones]

I think. I think like 1999 to 2002, like the trust Kill stuff was probably very interesting for a lot of people and probably for people between the ages of 20 and 25 because it was like fresh and it was new. But then after a while they probably got tired of that and wanted just to listen to fast parts and mosh parts and shit. I don't. I don't really know. Like, I was. I was only like 20 to 21 years old at that time. So, like, I was still like a very fresh face and still like experiencing things like for the first time.

[Bo]

So are you learning a lot from Scott on like the marketing side and stuff from this? Because you're talking about giving the people what they want. And that's the thing you talk about to this day. And I've. That's been your ethos kind of since I've known you. That's. That's like your writing superpower to me. As I've seen you start new bands is knowing what people want at the right time.

[Todd Jones]

Well, if you're. This is the thing, like I. If you're able to find yourself in a good band that people, like, people attach themselves to, like, don't take a U turn and go the other way and disappoint them. I mean, do. Do what you're passionate about doing. But if you're. If you're doing this band and people like it and you're passionate about doing it, stay on that road and just do it. And you know, you're lucky you got people who like what you do. Give them more. That's all people want. Like if you're in a band and people like it, they just want you to do it again.

[Bo]

Amen. Do it again. But better.

[Todd Jones]

If you're a really creative person and you can't. There's a lot of great bands out there that they don't put out the same record twice.

[Bo]

Right.

[Todd Jones]

And like that's something to be respected and appreciated and acknowledged. But there's. I think there's a lot of bands who, who maybe they can't make the same record twice, but they also can't make a saying, a second record that's quality wise, as good as the first one. Or maybe their fans just. Maybe it is as good, but their existing fans just don't really care for it.

[Bo]

Absolutely true.

[Todd Jones]

I, you know, as far as Nails goes, where I know we're not there yet, but like Nails was made to be a band like that. Like I. Nails was made to incite the feeling of slam dancing, moshing, stage diving. And I wanted Nails to be a band like Slayer or Motorhead where if a new record comes out, like, you don't have to guess what it's going to sound like.

[Bo]

You're getting a Nails record.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Thank God it's a Nails record. This is the first review that's good.

[Colin]

I mean that was. You said, very eloquent on the. The kind of mini doc stuff that you're doing around. You will never be one of us. There's a. You were. There's like a portion where you're talking about like, yeah, we don't need this part. We don't need that part. Give them, Give them the part. Give them what they want and make that a song. And like, I got some, I got.

[Bo]

Some anecdotes specifically about a couple of those a little later.

[Colin]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

You were very around.

[Bo]

I was very around. There's one part that I think was in five different songs on Abandoned All Life and ended up closing. You will never be one of us. You know what I'm talking about?

[Todd Jones]

Kind of. Yeah. There's definitely one riff that there's. I don't know about that one, but like the wide open wound riff. Da da na. Yeah. Same riff is in the song God's Cold Hands just played with a blast beat under it.

[Bo]

Yeah. Wow, that's fantastic. And you wouldn't know that unless you're playing it.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Can't wait now they know, they know. Can't wait to get there in just a Few minutes.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Before then. Low. So low.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Tell me what you remember about writing, recording, and touring on it. Because you're. You're. Are you hitting the road hard when this comes out?

[Todd Jones]

So I would say the first song for Los hello was probably written in December of 2001 or January of 2002. We played our first show on April 26, 2002, at Pat's Warehouse in Ventura. For that show, we had our demo CDs available, so we must have recorded that sometime in February or March at Nick's studio, pressed up the demo CDs, played our first show in April. We did our first tour in, like, June.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

So like, two months. Holy. Yeah, it's like two months after the Dude. Yeah. Like. Like, Scott was determined and we were determined, and the idea was that we were gonna do a band. And I don't want to say we were gonna make a living off of it, but we were gonna do our band and that's what we were gonna do.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Like, we're terror. This is. That's what we're doing.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. And so. So four of those songs came off the demo. And then before that June tour, we had recorded two other songs, which was I don't need your help and Push it away. Oh, and Scott McGrath, who now does Maggot Stomp, was doing. Was doing a label at that time called Takeover Records, and He pressed like 1500 or 2001 sided 7 inches of those two songs, and we had them for that June or July tour. So those two songs. So we had. Now we're talking six songs. So. And then we wrote three more songs, which was keep your distance.

[Bo]

You're such a good guy to interview, it's insane. Every ounce of information is loaded.

[Todd Jones]

Better off without you.

[Colin]

Yeah, huge.

[Todd Jones]

And then the last song we wrote was Low, so low, which we had finished in the studio, but we had recorded. We had booked time at Mars Recording Studios outside of Cleveland with Bill Korecki, Ripley RIP In September. And so around those recording dates, we had scheduled Canadian tour with the Promise and A Death for Every Sin. And we played Ontario or London, Ontario, maybe. Maybe Toronto and definitely Montreal. And then from Montreal, we drove to Cleveland and recorded that record. And that was one of my favorite records to record because. Not only because, like, one of the reasons why we chose Bill Kore is because he had done so much work that we liked on. On Ringworm Records and. And Integrity Records. And so we wanted to go have a recording experience with him and have his, you know, his production with our music.

[Bo]

Two weeks in a row of Bill Korecki recording Talk. This is good.

[Colin]

That's crazy.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, because Earth Crisis.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. They recorded a Firestorm there. Did they record all out on tour?

[Bo]

I think just Firestrong.

[Todd Jones]

Okay. So we recorded with Bill Correcki. And one of my favorite things about that recording was the fact that we had been. It was. We had been touring those songs for months.

[Bo]

So you guys were incredible at playing them.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Like, it was the most prepared recording sessions I have ever done and I will probably ever do in my life.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

Like, I know, like, Los Aloe was firmed up in the recording studio, but all those other eight songs, we had played them many times.

[Bo]

And you can tell just on the record, your right hand. Dude. Bo's dad still talks about it to this day. So that it was your first European tour ever on Lo Salo.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

How did you like that?

[Todd Jones]

Oh, it was. It was awesome. So In April of 2003, we toured Europe with. So we went to Europe and we played, like, maybe a week or a week and a half worth of shows with Born from Pain, and. And then we joined up with Biohazard.

[Bo]

Right.

[Todd Jones]

Because we went out there because we got offered a Biohazard tour on a bus.

[Bo]

Right.

[Todd Jones]

So my first European tour, besides the first week and a half, it was on a bus.

[Bo]

Crazy.

[Todd Jones]

It is crazy.

[Bo]

Did you have a good time or did you hate it?

[Todd Jones]

Both.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

That's fair.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Yeah. I really. I quit. I quit Terror on that tour.

[Bo]

There you go.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

So this is on this tour supporting Lows to Low before One of the Underdogs is out. You quit Terror?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, but, like, when I, like, I. I just told him, I'm like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to tour anymore. I didn't like touring, at least at that level. I love touring, but I. But I like doing two weeks at a time. And so, you know, Terror was a band that had. That had ambition, that wanted to tour nine months out of the year. And I learned very quickly, it's like, I don't know if this life is for me.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

And so I told him, I'm like, I'm going to fulfill our touring obligations up until the end of August or September or something. So I did that, and I was like, okay, well, we'll write a record again, too. So we wrote. We wrote one with the Underdogs together. We recorded that at Sound City and Van Nuys.

[Bo]

Right up the road, baby.

[Colin]

Yeah. You took me to the lot. At least I did, yeah.

[Bo]

How did you like recording there?

[Todd Jones]

I loved it.

[Bo]

Yeah. It's a cool room.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. A lot of history.

[Bo]

Was the Elton John piano in there?

[Todd Jones]

No, no, it was for me.

[Bo]

Tell me about recording. What would it. What is it like to. To write and record a record knowing you're not going to be in the band when it's out?

[Todd Jones]

It was.

[Bo]

It's like, carry on again.

[Todd Jones]

It was fine during the duration, but once the record was out, like, I. I got a little sad that I have an opportunity to play those songs live.

[Colin]

Yeah, of course.

[Bo]

Fair.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. But otherwise it was. It was fine. I love making music, so you're good at it.

[Colin]

To specify what Colin mentioned earlier about my dad, I showed him one of the first things I learned to play, like triplets and gallops to was Spit My Rage. And I showed it. I showed it to him and I was like, I'm trying to figure this out. And my dad, like listened to it. My dad's a. He. He. He has like a. A recording studio in his basement, in his house. He's a. He's a record producer for Christian Stuff. But he knows about recording and music and blah, blah. And he listened to it with me and he went, well, he only got to play it once in the studio because he, like, didn't believe that somebody could do. And like just keep playing it, implying that you copied and pasted.

[Bo]

But did you copy and paste it?

[Todd Jones]

No, absolutely not. I knew.

[Bo]

Yeah, we knew. You didn't.

[Colin]

I knew.

[Bo]

But it's. Now it's confirmed. Bo's dad. You hear that?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Real.

[Todd Jones]

So I went to the school of Slayer, baby.

[Bo]

See, he just. He went to the school of Who's. What's a Christian. A creed or something.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, that's why. That's why like the Carry on too and Roll the Punches. It's through like the tremolo. I got all that from Slayer.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

And. And. And also though, like Inside out did that too. Like Victor Cara. Like, like on that. Yeah, that Inside Out. There's like a lot of Slayer isms on that ep.

[Colin]

Cool.

[Todd Jones]

And I mean, I love that ep. I think it's one of the best hardcore records of that genre. But I mean, I'm just trying to say I. I wasn't the first person to do it, but that's where I learned how to do all that stuff.

[Bo]

Was Metallica and Slayer and Slayer loved Minor Threat.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, certainly.

[Bo]

It's all this big through line of the same stuff. It's beautiful. So you leave terror. You got in between you got Betrayed. You got Snake Eyes. Yeah. Any other bands I'm forgetting in that?

[Todd Jones]

Internal Affairs.

[Bo]

Internal Affairs. My God, you never stopped.

[Colin]

I love making bangers. The Snake Eyes demo, I loved it. I played.

[Bo]

You heard the seven Inch?

[Colin]

Probably.

[Bo]

Probably the seven Inches. Like, oh, Nails is coming.

[Colin]

Oh, interesting.

[Bo]

It's awesome.

[Colin]

Maybe not. Then I. I specifically remember I got the. The demo because Donnybrook played Chicago Heist. Like a fest that used to happen out here that Shane Meryl does or did and had him with him, and I got it. Yeah. Yeah. And what's funny is I. I definitely didn't meet anyone or, you know, or know anything, but that's for sure where I got it. And I for sure also went, oh, Todd Jones is in this. I have to get it.

[Bo]

That'll do it. Tell me about putting Betrayed together. Snake Eyes, your time in IA Any. Any songs or riffs you wrote for those that you think of fondly now?

[Todd Jones]

Well, we did Betrayed, and we did that. That. The first ep. And Addiction. That's right.

[Bo]

I really like that ep.

[Todd Jones]

I. I think that record's really good.

[Bo]

I think the last one is to the album. Yeah, they'll know the. The seven Inch. The last seven Inch. You know what I'm talking about?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. It's called Substance.

[Bo]

The Substance, title track, verse riff and chorus riff is like. I think. I think that's Todd sitting down and playing guitar naturally. That's.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, that song.

[Bo]

I love.

[Todd Jones]

I love that song. That's. That's like. That song is probably my favorite Betrayed song.

[Bo]

Mine, too.

[Todd Jones]

Right?

[Bo]

And that's like. That's. That's pure Todd riffage right there. Like. Like, that's you warming up at the gig before Nails plays. You're doing that one. I love that song.

[Colin]

Real quick with Betrayed. Do you. Did you play with Betrayed, like, the whole time?

[Todd Jones]

Yes and no. They went to Europe once, and I didn't go with them.

[Colin]

Did you play Burning fight in Chicago, 2009?

[Todd Jones]

Dude, I was there.

[Colin]

So I'm looking at the flyer, and he's right about 2009. By the way, Colin, you have.

[Bo]

That's good, man.

[Todd Jones]

You have April 2009.

[Colin]

When it comes to nothing on him, he's got.

[Bo]

He's got dates. I got years.

[Colin]

Colin. Listen, I want you to just listen to this lineup, though, just to hear how stacked this was. Unbroken. It was One Day Unbroken. No. Two Days Unbroken. Converge Disembodied Bane Trial Went Away Killing Time, Reach the Sky Ring Worm have Heart, Blacklisted Damnation AD Split Lip, Soul Control Thread Bear Harm's Way, Convicted, Betrayed, Guilt, Underdog, the Killer and Thought Crusade. And that underdog set like changed my life. That was like the one that I've talked about, where people were dancing a mass movement. But it's. It's funny that I. We didn't know each other at all at that point. We hadn't met met yet, Todd. But I definitely watched Betrayed. I was there the whole time, you know, so it's funny to think that. That because I didn't. I didn't get to see you in terror. I didn't get to see you in Carry On. But I saw you in Betrayed. That was my first. My first TJ moment.

[Todd Jones]

I thought you said you saw Tara at the Jim Grimes birthday.

[Colin]

No, no, I was right before my time. I had heard about it like legends.

[Bo]

His greatest regret in life is missing Jim Grimes birthday.

[Todd Jones]

I was 25 to life. Played Jim Grimes birthday.

[Colin]

Oh, don't say that.

[Todd Jones]

When they were still good.

[Colin]

Don't say that three times.

[Todd Jones]

Someone might appear.

[Bo]

Hey, Rick, I know you're watching. How you doing?

[Todd Jones]

Who's that?

[Bo]

So then, you know, shortly after this, you co. Found a little thing called Sound and Fury.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Sounds like a massive undertaking and a huge pain in the ass.

[Todd Jones]

It was rad.

[Bo]

Okay, I. I went to the first. Were you part of the first 3 or 4?

[Colin]

4.

[Bo]

4. I went to every single one of them. Had the best time. Tell me about.

[Todd Jones]

Who's your favorite one of those four?

[Bo]

I think this. The Trapped Under Ice set, 2008 is an all time, like, teenage memory for me.

[Todd Jones]

Rad.

[Bo]

And then seeing Taylor play for nails in 2009. Rad was. Is a. Is a beautiful memory.

[Todd Jones]

That was my favorite one. The last one.

[Bo]

It was incredible. The Oxford.

[Todd Jones]

Not the last one.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

But the last one that I was part of. Yeah.

[Colin]

And how long was the gap there was 2012 or 11.

[Todd Jones]

The next one, I think it might have been 2010.

[Bo]

10. Yeah.

[Colin]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Todd Jones]

It was just different folks, right?

[Colin]

Yeah, for sure.

[Bo]

Tell me about those first few, putting them together. What was that like?

[Todd Jones]

Well, Bob. All right, so what had happened was there was a festival in California that was occurring for the last, like two or three years, and there were a bunch of bands that were trying to book out their summer tour, and they were trying to book it around that other festival, assuming that they would likely be playing it. But the organizer was not getting back to folks, like, just kind of dropping the ball. And so I think Bob was like, hey, this is happening because Bob was working at Revelation Records at The time. And he was working with a lot. Not a lot, but a handful of those bands that would have. Would have been doing something. And Bob's like, hey, I don't know if he called Riley first or if he called me first, but he reached out to the both of us and says, hey, we. Maybe we should consider doing a festival because it doesn't look like this other one. It looked like it might not happen. So, you know.

[Bo]

And why. Why you two, were you guys just talking all the time?

[Todd Jones]

I was definitely talking to Riley on a regular basis and I was definitely talking to Bob, but I'm not sure if the three of us were hanging out at the same time yet.

[Bo]

He just had this. He had this vision. I need these two guys.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, Bob's a. Bob's a guy who just gets done, right. Shout out Bob.

[Bo]

And then it was history. And it's incredible to see what it has become since.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, it's amazing. Now. It's. I can't. Well, I mean, it was amazing then, but like, now it's like at a whole different level. Like, I can't even wrap my head around it. I got a lot of respect for those guys, but at the time it was just like, you know, Bob called me up and Riley and we're like, yeah, we're going to do this thing. So we did it, got. Got a venue, book some bands and did it for a couple of years and then didn't do it for a couple of years and then Riley wanted to do it again and he. And he called me and Bob up and I. I had nails going on and I just had a full plate, so I couldn't really do it. But it's amazing to see what it is now. It's amazing to see what it's turned into.

[Colin]

That is like the. One of the earliest things. Like now we all have, like, favorite sets and like, favorite things that we'll look up on YouTube or whatever and watch. You know, early Posi Numbers and early Sound and Fury sets of bands are like some of the first things I would like look up and like my earlier memories of like, just watching and.

[Todd Jones]

Like, when I was 18, I flew out to Posi Numbers to go see Right. Brigade.

[Colin]

Really? Which. Which year would that have been?

[Todd Jones]

2,000, 2,000. I saw no no justice and. And Ripe Brigade back to back and that, like both infamous sets.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And now there's a whole generation of people who like, get into hardcore from Saturn Fury live videos.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

We like, see a clip and go, this is. I want to Dedicate my life to this thing now, which is incredible.

[Todd Jones]

That's great.

[Bo]

Pardon this interruption. We're so sorry to interrupt this incredible episode, but we got to talk to you about Mad Vintage real quick. Because every band we've discussed on this show, you can buy a shirt from them right [e-mail].

[Colin]

I'M on that site all the time. I'm hunting, I'm perusing, I'm finding things you wouldn't imagine.

[Bo]

Gold I've been looking for my entire life. Is there grails, Holy grails. And you can sell your stuff to Luke too. He's always looking and we want it. So if you're looking for something, movies, hip hop, metal, hardcore rock, anything, Luke's got it. If you use code HARDLORE15, you're gonna get 15% off.

[Colin]

Say that again.

[Bo]

15 off. And some of this stuff adds up, man. You're gonna want to get on it.

[Colin]

It adds up. He's also going to be at ldb tied down Furnace fest this year. All of those.

[Bo]

Maybe some other ones. We might be working on getting them into some other things. I have this plan of this. I've got a plan for Luke. I want. I want to get. I got to get these. My people outfitted with the greatest shirts in the world, you know? So before I do that, you're all. You all have the chance to do it. Don't mess this up, okay? Don't dawdle. The shirt you've been looking for your entire life is on there.

[Colin]

It's on there.

[Bo]

This episode is also brought to you by Guilty Party. Oh, the best menswear store in North America. Co owned by the drummer of foundation. Can you believe that?

[Colin]

I can't.

[Bo]

You know what would be we be without Guilty Party. We would be slobs.

[Colin]

Yeah, slovenly.

[Bo]

We'd be slumming it up in the alleyways outside be wearing. But instead, we got the greatest denim in the world. Ironheart. I got this new full count pair. I can't believe.

[Colin]

Yeah, we're both talking the Ironheart engineer pants.

[Bo]

Yes. Dude, that has changed the game.

[Colin]

No, I know.

[Bo]

I don't want to take them off. I won't take them off. So you're gonna have to take them off me or you're gonna have to get them yourself. Go to Guilty Party. Co use code hardlaw. You're gonna get 10% off. And if your orders over $300, which it probably will be because this stuff is built to last your entire life, you're gonna get free shipping Too.

[Colin]

They're constantly getting new stuff. They're constantly updating their site. It's. It's hardcore owned. It's within the family. What more do you need?

[Bo]

Quit blowing your crotch out.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Buy some stuff that will last you forever. Saturn Fury 2009, like I said, was the first time I. Or second time I saw Taylor play for nails. So let's talk about the. The origin of nails. Let's get into this.

[Colin]

I'm so sorry to interrupt, but isn't there like. Was knife fight in between? Weren't you writing playing with knife fight?

[Todd Jones]

I started playing with knife fight, I think in 2009. So I'd already been doing nails.

[Colin]

Got you. Okay. So sorry. I. I thought I had my. My timeline in order. My bad.

[Todd Jones]

No apology necessary.

[Bo]

Obscene humanity.

[Todd Jones]

Yes.

[Bo]

Is first the. The. The un. Highly underrated record. If you've not heard it. I think it's fully on streaming now, right?

[Todd Jones]

Not on streaming, but the redux. Yeah, we're going to keep that off streaming. Just physical copies are available. That's what's up. I. I did request that it go on bandcamp. I'm not sure if it's there. If it's not, it will be soon.

[Colin]

We'll see.

[Bo]

So who is the original ensemble that you. You recruit for Nails? How do you find John Glue?

[Todd Jones]

So before. Before we talk about Nails, I think it's important to talk about. I joined Blacklisted and I think the. The winter of 2007, going into 2008, they had just put out the Heavier Than Heaven. No, they just put out Peace on earth, war on stage 7 ish. Or they had just recorded it.

[Bo]

I think they debuted that right before Sound and Fury 2007. I remember I bought the shirt and the record.

[Todd Jones]

Okay. So then I joined. I can't remember, but I joined that band and I played with Blacklisted for about nine months and toured with them. Toured. Toured a lot of different places. And it was. And. And I learned a lot from them as far as the way they looked at music and also the way that they. The way that they kind of kept to themselves. They were very independent and a lot of their attitude. Something that I adopted. And, you know, I was living in California and I couldn't really afford to not have a job any. I was like not working for a year and I couldn't afford to not have a job. My savings ran out and so I had a choice. I could either stay in California and work and do whatever it is I'm going to do here, or I Could move to Philadelphia and being blacklisted and, you know, I chose to stay in California. With that being said, I always think about blacklisted as like, pivotal step in your story. Yeah, absolutely. 100.

[Bo]

So did you play on Heavier Than Heaven?

[Todd Jones]

I played on it, but I didn't write anything.

[Bo]

Now, can you confirm or deny whether or not you recorded guitars laying down on the couch at God City?

[Todd Jones]

I don't. I don't. I don't think so. I. I think that rumor. That rumor, the rumor of me recording guitars laying down. Yeah, I think that came from when I recorded the betrayed 7 inch. Like the first 7 inch.

[Bo]

So did you lay down for the betrayed 7 inch?

[Todd Jones]

For some of it, yeah.

[Bo]

You know what else I know that you laid down to make it real?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Abandon all life.

[Todd Jones]

I don't know.

[Bo]

For part of it. Taylor told me there's at least a song on Abandoned All Life that was recorded lying down to make it real.

[Todd Jones]

Well, again, he says it, then it's true.

[Colin]

On the. On the you'll never be one of us thing, there's video of. Of him doing it. But I think you were looking for tone. I think I just.

[Todd Jones]

That's the thing. Listen, I'm gonna okay this. I'm gonna. I'm gonna pull the curtain back a little bit. I'm not a tone guy. I'm not good at finding tone. I'll get it. I'll get a. I'll get a distorted amp. I'll turn the gain up, put my HM2 on. That's all I do.

[Bo]

Perfect.

[Todd Jones]

I don't fuck with the knobs. I don't do anything. With that being said, I love middle.

[Bo]

Yeah, you love middle.

[Todd Jones]

I love mids.

[Colin]

It's very important.

[Todd Jones]

It's all about the mids.

[Colin]

Very important.

[Todd Jones]

So now with that being said, the.

[Colin]

Perceived volume that you get from bumping your mids is crazy.

[Todd Jones]

Sometimes the clarity. It's the clarity.

[Colin]

Yes. All of a sudden you can hear it. It's really crazy. Yeah.

[Bo]

See, I feel like I suck ass when I got the mids crank. So I hide them.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, yeah, yeah. The mids will show. Will show. The mids will. You can't hide from the mids.

[Bo]

I like the lows. Even with fast punk, I need that so they can't hear what I'm doing.

[Colin]

Which is why Megadeth is kind of the craziest one, because they were all mids and playing all that.

[Bo]

That's proficiency.

[Todd Jones]

Guitars at the front. Yeah. Pretty crazy. So that video you're talking about, I mean, I don't. I wouldn't say I have a bad back, but when I'm, like, sitting up playing guitar for hours while Kurt is.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Doing this. The amps and at the console laid out, I get tired. When I still got to play, I just lay down and play.

[Colin]

I love it.

[Bo]

Incredible. This is huge. This is life. People have been waiting years for this information.

[Colin]

Really?

[Bo]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I. I have.

[Todd Jones]

I. I knew this has been a rumor. Taylor told me about it years ago. The best rumor years ago. Yeah.

[Bo]

So there you go. It's both def debunked and confirmed at the same time.

[Todd Jones]

Can you play guitar without looking at the frets?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Then you can play guitar line.

[Colin]

Yeah, you're right. Oh, wow.

[Bo]

Give it a shot. All right, right now, the video. And put it in right now, Steven. Here it is. All right, so you assemble the original nail squad, which is John Glue. And who was on drums?

[Todd Jones]

Tom Hogan.

[Bo]

Tom Hogan. And you made a great record. Where do you find John? I know he played in radio.

[Todd Jones]

John. John was John. I mean, I met John in, like, 2006. So when I. When I hit him up to be in Nails, like, he was always, like, he was already around for like, a couple years. John was in Rad, which was a legit, really good band, local band. And then he was in the band after Rad, which was. Fell too low.

[Colin]

Oh, yeah.

[Bo]

Which was a really good band.

[Todd Jones]

They have an album on Revelation Records. Everybody listening to this should go check it out. With that being said, I always thought of John as, like, just an individual. Like, he was just himself. I thought he was real. I thought he had. And he still does. Has, like, just a really good spirit. Not a clone, just himself. And I wanna. I wanted to be in a band with him because of that.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Bo]

And he's. That's still him. Him to this day.

[Todd Jones]

100.

[Bo]

He wanted to surprise you at that Belasco show.

[Todd Jones]

I was so surprised and so happy.

[Bo]

How awesome was that?

[Todd Jones]

I was so happy.

[Bo]

John.

[Todd Jones]

Lovely John.

[Bo]

If you're watching Tom Hogan, was he in Knife Fight?

[Todd Jones]

Tom was in 108.

[Bo]

108.

[Colin]

Oh, wow.

[Todd Jones]

But the thing is, Tom, I was living in Carpenteria at the time. You know, John was living in Ojai, and then Tom was in Santa Barbara. And at the time, it was really important for me to be in a band of local people. I didn't want to have to deal with flying anybody out. And I also wanted to rehearse and get, like, a good musical chemistry going on with the people in my Band. So it was important to me that, like, people were, like, somewhat like, close. So, you know. And Tom's rad dude, rad drummer, so it was cool.

[Bo]

And he ends up playing three shows, I think, or something like that.

[Todd Jones]

With Nails?

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, I can't remember how many shows we played.

[Bo]

It was a small batch.

[Todd Jones]

I think Taylor's first show was like Murder Fest. No, it was Sound and Fury.

[Bo]

Was it?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, but that was like nails, his ninth or 10th show at that time.

[Bo]

Remember the Murder Fest you played where you threw obscene humanity LPs to the front of the stage before you played?

[Todd Jones]

I throw them. I gently laid them down because I was just like. There were like 20 people there in like a.

[Bo]

It was me and 19 people, and it was like five or six people looking at each other and, like, slowly going up and taking the records before anybody else could. It was awesome.

[Todd Jones]

I was just like, I think a stack of records. I was like, if anybody wants some, come get one.

[Bo]

Cool move.

[Colin]

Yeah, that's awesome. Damn.

[Bo]

So how do you find Taylor? Taylor was a. He's four years older than me. This is 2009. So he's 20. 19, I think. 20.

[Colin]

Jesus.

[Bo]

He's posting on the message boards. You know, he's. He's. He was a. He was in the band Crematorium before that. So you knew he could blast, which I think was a big factor. And you find this, like, this biohazard loving kid from. From the Valley in Connecticut. How do you guys get in contact and how do you. How do you make that connection?

[Todd Jones]

Well, I mean, I have memories of speaking to Taylor online, I think somewhere, like in 2003 or 2004. Like, I think we had each other's AOL Instant messenger name, and we would chat every now and then. And he was. He was a dude, you know, like, he was. He was around on message boards at shows. You know, I knew him, he knew me, and I knew he could play drums, like, very well. And I don't know, I just think one day I just. Hey, he may have offered his services. Like, we were on that Murder Fest because of him.

[Bo]

Because he was in Crematorium, right? Yeah, by Dan Dismal.

[Todd Jones]

He was like, hey, you do want to play this? I'll put you guys on there. Like, Nails was already a band and he was, like, cool to me. And so, like, I was just. It just made sense. I was like, yes, I want to play with you. And that's the same thing with John. Like, I. Like, before Taylor Young was Taylor Young, the recording Engineer or like, the. He's the guy now. Yeah, before. But when he joined Nails, like, that was before he had made a name for himself, really. And I saw the same thing in him that I saw in John. I was like, this is somebody who is unapologetically themselves good musician. I like their outlook on how they thought about music. I'm like, this is somebody I want to play in a band with.

[Bo]

Totally. And a year later, on Silent Death is born. And, like, this is where I really witness Nails. Nails become nails.

[Todd Jones]

I feel like unsilent Death was where Nails has found our sound.

[Bo]

100. Yeah. I couldn't believe it at the time. Can't believe it now. And I think the world really felt the same. I remember real quick, Today is the.

[Todd Jones]

15Th anniversary of that record coming out today.

[Bo]

That's holy crazy.

[Todd Jones]

Fifteen years ago, we were playing the Ohio Valley Women's center with Dry Rot and a couple. I can't remember the other bands. Forgive me. Other bands? Yeah, maybe.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Bo]

Do you remember when John.

[Todd Jones]

If you're laughing. I know, dude.

[Bo]

John. John. You know. You know, you are. Can you picture the Charman logo in your head?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bo]

John called him the Charman Fire guy.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Bo]

And I was like, do you mean the Charman? And John was like, oh, my God, no.

[Todd Jones]

Because there's Laura around. That.

[Bo]

Is there?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Like, there's. I. I can't explain it, but there's like, a guy in Ojai who died.

[Bo]

He's the Charman, right? Yeah. What he was called.

[Todd Jones]

I don't know what he's. He had a name for sure. He's a. He's like a living person, you know.

[Bo]

The Charman Fire guy. Basically saying the same thing in two different meanings twice has always stuck with me and killed me.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

So on. Silent Death is magical. What can you tell me about that era, putting those songs together with that kind of core trio at the time? Did something click that in. In you and with the group that really made you think, like, okay, this is. This is Nails now, like, was there a song you guys put together where you're like, oh, I think we found it?

[Todd Jones]

No, I. I don't think. I don't think I realized we found our sound until the record was done. Like, I. I knew. I knew I had an int. Vision that I wanted to complete, and it was. I just wanted to exist, and I wanted to make a record that. That every song had intent and also that like. Like a very narrow field. Like, I didn't want to experiment. I didn't want to do something out of left field. I just wanted it to be like a super aggressive punk, like, metal record.

[Colin]

I can tell you where it started for me. And it was.

[Todd Jones]

And that was one of the last songs we wrote on the record. So Taylor. When Taylor and I first got together, we went. He had a. He had a room, a lockout at the east seventh.

[Bo]

Yeah, the warehouse where?

[Todd Jones]

Downtown rehearsal.

[Bo]

Yeah. Mike Patton's Fantomas or something was in the room across the hall. Asked us to ask Crematorium to close the door one time.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

So he. He had a room there. And I'm like, okay, I have. I have four or five songs and we're going to demo them right now.

[Colin]

Or.

[Todd Jones]

Or we. Taylor and I had discussed that we're going to go there. I was, you know, play him songs and we're going to demo him. And he still has them. I still have them too. But we demoed like, Scummel, Rise your God, Suffering Soul, Apart From Depths, and like another. Like A B side 1. A song that didn't really make it on the record, maybe. And so we were knocked out, like, four songs off the record right there.

[Bo]

One Practice.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

And then. And at the time, you know, Taylor was very focused on doing Twitching Tongues and maybe something else, and John was very focused on Felt To Low. So both of those. Both of them kind of joined the band on the basis that it was going to be a side project for them at least. And I was fine with that because I just needed musicians to make this record, because in my mind, I'm like, I'm gonna make this record and this is probably gonna be done. We had played nine or 10 shows at the time. We had no business asking a record label for thousands of dollars. So I was like, I want to go record this record. I want to record it with Kurt, and I'm just gonna put it out myself.

[Bo]

Street Cleaner Records, baby.

[Todd Jones]

That's right. Yeah. And it was a joint release between Street Cleaner and Six Feet Under. But I remember asking Taylor and John, I'm like, look, we're gonna go fly to. To Boston and go record with Kurt. And, you know, Taylor was pretty. I think he was pretty stoked on that because, you know, as a. As an aspiring at the time, as a younger recording engineer, going out to record with Kurt is a big deal.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

So I think he would tell you that he learned more from Kurt than anybody.

[Todd Jones]

I think he's. I think he shared that information. And the only time I've ever asked them to put in their own Money into the band was just buy your airfare, I'll take care of everything else. Or they probably took care of their own food too. But. But yeah, we recorded the record, you.

[Bo]

Did a Good job. And 15 years later, here we are still talking about it.

[Colin]

That's amazing. We met shortly thereafter.

[Todd Jones]

That's right.

[Colin]

We.

[Todd Jones]

Well, a year later, where do we meet? In Europe or.

[Colin]

No, well, we met. We met in Chicago. Nails played the Double Door.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

And I think we knew the European tour was going to happen already. And you either emailed me or texted me or something and asked if I knew where you could get an HM2. I don't know if you remember that. It was very. It was like last.

[Todd Jones]

We needed one on that tour.

[Colin]

Yeah. And I don't, I don't think I. I found you one, but I definitely was like, really? Oh, God.

[Bo]

Something really cool you guys did on that, on with the Unsilent Death tour was you guys just out by yourselves for a month.

[Todd Jones]

That's true.

[Bo]

Tell me about that tour.

[Todd Jones]

Well, I had quit my. I. Unsilent Death had come out and people, people liked it, but I didn't know how well received it was. But regardless, I was like, I want to tour this. Like, I really love this record. I love this band. Like, I want to tour this and treat it like a real thing, not just like some side project. So I quit my job in June and then the tour was booked for most of August and some of September or, or most of September and some of. I can't remember. But somewhere in that summer we did like a five week tour and you know, playing for 100, 150 bucks a night and headlining, like at the time, whatever world I was connected to, whatever you want to call it, I didn't really want to play shows with those bands. I kind of wanted to do my own thing. Like, I like Nails is Nails at the time was a reflection of me wanting to play like more like heavier and brutal stuff. Not like in a mosh way, but in like a fast, hardcore, antisocial way. And at the time it was just. I just wanted to do something different. I wanted to do something else than what my peers were doing.

[Bo]

And touring by yourself was definitely that. And I can.

[Todd Jones]

It was the only thing we could do.

[Bo]

I. I think maybe when it was recorded, Taylor looked at it as a side project, but we had a conversation after Unsound Death came out that was very much like, hey, man, I gotta. This is working, I gotta do this. And I was like, I Get it.

[Todd Jones]

We'll. Oh, red.

[Bo]

So he. It was. He was very much.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, Taylor was dedicated.

[Bo]

He was dedicated.

[Todd Jones]

100, big time. I have nothing. Yeah, 100 percent one.

[Bo]

A couple funny things before we move on to Abandoned All Life that I want to bring up. I don't remember exactly when this happened, but do you remember your Beats Pill era?

[Todd Jones]

I saw a beat. So is that a pill? Is that the. The Bluetooth?

[Bo]

The little Bluetooth speaker?

[Todd Jones]

Did that come during this?

[Bo]

I think it was later. But I just gotta talk about the Beats Pill era real quick. Todd would get to the gig, fire up the Beats pill, gather the troops and just put music on and be like, shh, Listen to this riff. And it was all this Beats did the Beats pill was revolutionary in the Nails camp.

[Todd Jones]

What would I play like my own?

[Bo]

No, it'd be like Slayer and just. Just the coolest. Just whatever you were into.

[Todd Jones]

Dude. I bring a Bluetooth speaker with me on every. Every show.

[Bo]

I still do it.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, I have to.

[Bo]

The Spirit of the Beast Pill is on.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, dude, I didn't know this was a thing, but it was a thing for me.

[Bo]

Just because you telling me, like, yo, I got this Beats pill. It's unbelievable.

[Todd Jones]

I got to listen to music before I, you know, do my thing.

[Bo]

I love it. Do you have before. And I have a funny one. If you don't any. A single John Glue anecdote that comes to mind.

[Todd Jones]

Fuck. There's so many. It's like when someone asks you a question, your mind goes blank.

[Bo]

I'm going to give you one.

[Todd Jones]

He's so funny.

[Bo]

He's one of the funniest people in the world. I'm going to give you one. On a nail store, heckling people outside of the window. John is not very good at it. He's very. He's an. He's a. He's an amateur yeller.

[Todd Jones]

But that's why he's good at it.

[Bo]

That's why he's good at it. So everybody. People are. We're just talking shit to people outside of the window.

[Todd Jones]

What do you mean talking to people?

[Bo]

Just yelling at people.

[Todd Jones]

You know, like the bands playing.

[Bo]

No, like passersby, strangers on the street, People we'd never see again. And we're like, john, you try one, and there's a girl wearing white pants.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, dude, I remember this. I remember this.

[Bo]

And he goes, hey, are those your white pants? And then there. And then Austin Crane was doing it and he was vicious with it.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, dude.

[Bo]

And you were like, austin, can you like, do a Nice one. And he goes, hey. To an old lady. Hey, have a nice day. And then you guys all laughing. He goes, you old bitch.

[Todd Jones]

I have a very vivid memory of touring with Felt. Hello. When we were in Seattle and Austin Crane yells out the. Like, it was just a. It was a main street, but it was like a residential area. And there's someone walking their dogs and he just starts barking at them and the dogs go crazy. And the person holding the leash is.

[Bo]

Like, what the comedic. Another brilliant comedic mind. Austin Crane.

[Todd Jones]

Austin's fun. I got.

[Colin]

I got a couple. Because then Todd and I met proper and we did the Rise and Fall Nails Harm's Way European tour. It was our first time to Europe. Had you been back to Europe, Todd, since the territory?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Colin]

Okay. You'd been. Because you were like. When we first met at the airport, you were very much like, all right, we got to go here. Okay. They're going to get us from like, you were very like, on point, like you knew what was happening.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, I wasn't taking any from anybody on that tour. Cuz I had been to Europe before and I took a lot of. From dumb.

[Colin]

Yeah, he. You.

[Todd Jones]

I wasn't having it.

[Colin]

You told us, right?

[Todd Jones]

I still don't have it.

[Colin]

Yeah, you told us right away.

[Todd Jones]

I'm an American in Europe. I'm not gonna do what you want. Like, there's a lot of. As an American tour in Europe. Like, there's a lot of. You got to deal with.

[Bo]

There is.

[Todd Jones]

And then you gotta remember, tolerate any of it.

[Bo]

Like you're all working for me.

[Todd Jones]

You know, essentially, dude, the van rental. We're paying for the van. We're paying for the driver. Driver. You're taking us to where we want to go.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

When we want to go there.

[Colin]

Literally.

[Todd Jones]

And I'm not saying this to be an. But it's like there's so much resistance from these guys.

[Colin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Todd Jones]

It's like, remember who's paying the bill here, dog.

[Bo]

I want to see the catacombs. Take me now.

[Todd Jones]

Well, I think we hit Paris on that one.

[Colin]

No, we didn't. But one of the first things we. You told us was like, remember, they work for us. Like that.

[Todd Jones]

You.

[Colin]

You. We're on our way to the first show to load in for the first night. And you're like, they work for us. But I also remember, dude, did we.

[Todd Jones]

Have to flex that at any time?

[Colin]

No, because we had Turkish. Turkish and another guy and they were cool.

[Bo]

Turkish rules.

[Colin]

They were cool. They were very point A to point B. You know.

[Bo]

But dude, imagine being your birth name being Attila Turok. Yeah, pretty hard and then some and then being like, just call me Turkish, please.

[Colin]

I do.

[Bo]

Attila Turok.

[Colin]

That tour was like miserably snowy and, and just like it was a pretty rough one.

[Todd Jones]

It was cold.

[Colin]

We had Rick with us and we.

[Todd Jones]

Were very Shout out Rick, man.

[Colin]

We were very. How you guys were gonna like mesh.

[Todd Jones]

Dude, it was right up, right off the bat. We just got into it and I called him, I said, you look like a white Mike Tyson. And then he hit me with some old. And I was like.

[Colin]

And then two weeks later they get matching straight ahead tattoos.

[Todd Jones]

That's true.

[Colin]

It was awesome. It was really cool. But Rick's one of the, one of the memories I have. Todd, I don't know if you remember. This is, remember we went to. Outside of Munich is Dachau, which was a camp.

[Todd Jones]

I went, I remember going to Dachau.

[Colin]

And you were, we were, it was a blizzard and you were walking around in a hoodie.

[Todd Jones]

Would I have shorts on or something?

[Colin]

No, but just zipped up in a hoodie and there were people in. We were in Parkers like we were.

[Todd Jones]

Dude, I'm from California. I don't at that time I probably didn't have like a big winter coat.

[Colin]

Oh man. Good.

[Bo]

So you're suffering inside.

[Todd Jones]

That was fine. That was cool. I wasn't asking to leave earlier.

[Colin]

Fueled with fury.

[Bo]

Cold blooded.

[Colin]

And then one of the only other things I remember is very early on I to your. What you said before. I didn't know a whole lot about gear at the time. And whatever we had rented was what we had rented and it was like Rise and Fall like knows their, you know, Cedric is very aware of his amps or whatever. So we're looking at the amps and you and I are talking about what we're going to use. I'm like, I'm going to use this 800 and you look at it and you go, it's not gonna be enough for you, dog. And it was like a lesson in like, just because it's a cool amp does not mean it's gonna work. And I, I learned immediately. That's just something.

[Todd Jones]

So, so what was enough?

[Colin]

What did they have for you, like a 900? No, it was all Marshall, I think, but it was like a 900.

[Bo]

More DSL, more game.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, the DSL. Yeah. Good amp.

[Bo]

Oh, I like the DSL.

[Todd Jones]

It was a good, good amp.

[Colin]

But I, I, it, I, that stuck with me that like just because it's a cool like a Model T is a sick amp. Doesn't mean it's going to work for what you're using. Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

You know.

[Colin]

And so it stuck with me. Loved that tour. Fond memories.

[Todd Jones]

Great. Swore I love it too, man.

[Bo]

So Unsound Death would be re. Officially re released by Southern Lord, which you would join for one more record. One quote from Greg to you has stuck with me forever.

[Todd Jones]

Noted and remembered.

[Bo]

Noted and remembered.

[Todd Jones]

I was an though.

[Colin]

No. In that regard. I don't know.

[Todd Jones]

So this is what happened. So we're playing New York, I think on the abandoned all life record. And I'm very. At that time I was still a very impatient person and the show had sold out and between all of us, I mean SAA was in the band so he had a lot of heads coming to the show. He lives there. We. We have like a 10 person guest list. And what Greg did was fine.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

All Greg did was say, hey Todd, could you get these four people in from my district, my distributor into the show? And instead of being nice and saying we just don't have guest list spots, I was like, in my mind, I was like, why are you asking me to get so many people on our guest list at a fucking New York City show where we have a ton of friends?

[Bo]

Right. When it's like in reality it's a.

[Todd Jones]

Music hub and it's a music hub and it's a friend hub. And like my. It just short circuited my brain and I was like, no, absolutely not. Like, not in a nice way, not in a professional way. But it was just like, why are you asking me this? And my response was a reflection of my character, not his request. So he does. He deserves grace. He deserves. He deserved to be dealt with. Patience. But in my asshole way, I was like, absolutely not. Like, I'm not putting these people I don't know on my like. And another thing is with nails is like, it's like I prioritize the band members before I prioritize anybody else.

[Bo]

Totally.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

So I'm sorry, record label. If we only have 10 spots, we're using those for ourselves and our friends. Like if we have open ones, then we will let you in. Otherwise these people can just pay to see the show. And that's another thing. Nevermind.

[Bo]

Yeah. No, I mean to me the list is for moshers, dude.

[Todd Jones]

If you want to go to a show, buy a ticket.

[Bo]

I agree.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

But I do thank him for changing my life that day with Noted.

[Todd Jones]

And remember, dude, Greg's so sick, man. I only have positive things to say about him.

[Colin]

Oh, that's beautiful.

[Todd Jones]

In that, in that moment, I was the asshole.

[Bo]

So note and remember that. Greg.

[Todd Jones]

Greg Anderson, Shout Out Greg Anderson, Southern.

[Bo]

Lord One more Toddism before we, before we move on is the infamous Couple Tracks.

[Colin]

Dude. Wow.

[Bo]

Another life changing remark.

[Todd Jones]

That's not. That didn't come from me.

[Bo]

Who did it come from?

[Todd Jones]

Well, the band fucked up, put out a record called Couple Tracks. Okay. And I think where that came from was there. There was a password protected message board that talked about anything that had to do with old hardcore. Anything and everything. And it was actually very pivotal to me learning a lot about old hardcore bands. Like especially like old European and Finnish hardcore bands. I think it came from that. It's like they were talking about records. Like there it was a thing said in admiration like, oh, it has a couple tracks. Not. Not to like diss anything or maybe it was to diss something. I don't know. But I think that term came from that message board, which is probably where UP got it from.

[Bo]

And in the up song, do they say it? Are they just talking listing bands?

[Todd Jones]

No, no, no. I don't think there's a song called Couple Tracks. I think they have a. They a compilation CD or album called Couple Tracks. But it's. But it's a compilation. So it's almost like. I don't know if they're. They're making fun of themselves or if they're making light of the joke. I don't. I don't know what the intention is.

[Bo]

Your intention though, in the way that I've carried it with me since was Rip Lou Reed. Couple Tracks.

[Todd Jones]

Lou Reed had a couple tracks for sure, a lot of tracks.

[Colin]

But I've real. I've realized something, Colin. There's something important that I didn't mention on the tour with Nails, Harm's Way and Rise and Fall. Playing second guitar is one Andrew Seba.

[Todd Jones]

And that's where I met. Yeah.

[Bo]

He said, you'll be coming with me and Saba.

[Colin]

Saba had a demo. I believe he had like some ideas or he was working on stuff.

[Todd Jones]

This is important.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And. And after that tour for a couple months lived in my apartment and I would come home to. From work to him riffing. Just riffing in the living room to songs that would kind of be work into nail songs. Like I feel like they started somewhere and then ended up in a different place. But I just remember when I would hear some Abandoned All Life tracks, it would sound vaguely familiar to what maybe he was working on, so.

[Todd Jones]

So, yeah, let's talk about this. So, number one, I didn't intentionally poach Saba from you guys.

[Bo]

No.

[Todd Jones]

I don't remember how that worked out.

[Colin]

I can tell you exactly how. And it's one of the best stories that happens.

[Todd Jones]

Should we go there first or go there?

[Colin]

Yeah, this is real quick.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Colin]

2012, I'm taking care of the Harm's way van. That was just kind of was my lot. I had it parked on Bosworth Avenue in Chicago, right. Right off of north, right by the highway. I go out to leave for work one day, and I noticed the van is completely missing. I tried calling James. He texts me back and says, just tell me, man. Because he knew what was gonna happen. And I text him, I said, the van got stolen. So in a group chat with the band, we. We tell everybody, like, hey, guys, the van got stolen. We were leaving for Australia in a couple weeks. Like, we were just kind of figuring out what we're gonna do. And Sab said, wow, that sucks. Is the band gonna break up? Like, he. He was very much like, so we're breaking up, right? Because Nails was like, right around the corner.

[Bo]

There we go.

[Colin]

And there we go. So you didn't poach him. He made up his mind. He made his decision.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Very good. So. So. So during that tour, Sabo was getting mixes of his demo, which was called Wind.

[Colin]

Oh, yeah.

[Todd Jones]

And it was good.

[Colin]

It was really good. That's right.

[Todd Jones]

It was really good. And.

[Bo]

I mean, he's an incredible musician and songwriter.

[Todd Jones]

Great guitar player, great songwriter, great musicians. Check out. Check out the Virgos. They're good. Their new record's great.

[Colin]

Love it. Love it.

[Todd Jones]

So Saba joined Nails, and I was like, okay, like, I want you to make your mark on this band. I want you to write a song for Nails, and you know you're gonna get credit for it, blah, blah, blah. And I said that. I can't remember how it went down, but that Wind demo, I was like, here, this, this. Take this riff. Play it a little bit differently. And take that riff. Play a little bit differently. And then, you know, write a song around it. And he did. And that was that some suik song.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

The epic album Closer.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

So much.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. I saw Bo gave it some love on your guys's favorite final tracks.

[Colin]

That's right. I gave Carry on some too.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, I saw that as well.

[Colin]

What can I say?

[Todd Jones]

Thank you.

[Bo]

The. The chorus riff to a band all life. That was a save one right there.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, Love that riff.

[Bo]

It's a Good riff. But before Van and All Life, there was a scrapped entire God City session with a seven minute version of Wide Open Wound.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Bo]

What you did. You weren't into that session.

[Todd Jones]

It wasn't so much a session. It's just we weren't ready to really record anything.

[Bo]

I mean, it turned out all right.

[Todd Jones]

Does Taylor still have that in our.

[Bo]

I think he might. He's the one that probably do. Might have to get on the horn with him and fly some stuff in. We'll see.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. But yeah, it's not good.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

Really, like, to nobody's fault. Like, if it's anybody's fault, it's mine. Like, we. We went. We were being a little too ambitious. Wanted to record some more with Kurt and book some time, and we just weren't ready. We didn't have the songs.

[Bo]

So you scrap it, you go home, regroup. Abandoned All Life Is Made. Tell me about that time. Because as. As we all know as musicians, the sophomore LP is maybe the most difficult.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Like, making a great follow up is really the make or break period for any band. You can write a debut LP easily because you can take as much time as you want. Nobody really understands Abandoned All Life in. In that three year gap. It's 2013, I think. Right. I think now that the nail sound has been established, you've got Saba in there contributing his mind to things. A masterpiece is born. We talk about this record all the time. We love it so much. Tell me about putting this together. Any memories you have and is this something you consider in the upper echelon of your work as a musician?

[Todd Jones]

Is my least favorite nails record, with that being said, like, I love it. Like, when I say it's my least favorite, it doesn't mean I don't love it. Like, I love that record, but it's probably my least favorite record. I have lots of fond memories. I have a lot of fond memories with your brother in his studio, like writing songs. Like writing God's Cold Hands and writing Wide Open Wound, like. And Taylor will tell you this, like, when. When. When we're working on a song and we go from one part to the other, when it feels. When we make the transition from part one to part two, and it feels really good. I have to stop playing and I have to, like, start yelling because you did just. It felt good.

[Colin]

We did it.

[Todd Jones]

Not so much. Not so much we did it, but more like, this is. This is awesome.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

Like, this feels so good. I am so into this.

[Bo]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

And he'll tell you that like, like I would just stop playing. I'd be like, yeah, because I'm so psyched on it. And I definitely had those moments for the song Wide Open Wound, the song God's Cold hands, John's cold Van I sometimes John's cold.

[Colin]

I was a cold man. Man, I love this record. This is a record that I, I equate to like Misery Index by Asic where it's like as soon as it finishes, I let it play again because it's just so easy to get through and like quick and impactful that I need it twice.

[Todd Jones]

Saba and I had like, like friendly competition when we were making that record. Like we were really trying to make something just really aggressive and really like just really aggressive. I don't know how to say it any better than that. We were just like trying to up the ante a little bit. I think that record is probably not as catchy as in Silent Death, but definitely more extreme, I guess, for lack of better word.

[Bo]

Definitely.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

I think there's some hooks on it though that.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

That help to, you know, evolve the nail sound. I do remember at the time Taylor telling me like Todd doesn't really like this record. It seems like, like, like during, throughout recording you were maybe not psyched on it.

[Todd Jones]

I'm like that with every record I do.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

I bet he would say the sick. I have vivid memories of recording you will be never one of us and just feeling like it wasn't good enough. Wow, that's just self. It's just self doubt.

[Bo]

Sure you have it.

[Todd Jones]

You have it, don't you?

[Bo]

All over the place.

[Todd Jones]

Self doubt. It's like a real thing for any like creative person definitely. So like you. And you don't know until it's done and really you don't know until people hear it. Like, like there's records I've done where it's like, I think people are gonna like this. I don't know. And then they end up liking it.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

And then there's records like I think this is amazing and maybe people don't really like it as much. Like you just never know until, until I mean you could, you could know how you feel about something, but you don't really know how something's going to be received until it's out there.

[Colin]

Did you.

[Bo]

But the intention of writing it for yourself to like.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, that's first.

[Bo]

The old. The older you get, the more you realize that's the most important thing. How was that the case with ever with any of these records where you're like, I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks of this. I love this. I'm confident in it.

[Todd Jones]

There's a little bit of like, like what we said earlier. Like, I want to make sure like we appease a Nails fan. Like, I don't, like, I know a lot of people say I don't give a. What our fans think. It's like dog, like your fan and like make your band. Make or break your band.

[Bo]

Totally.

[Todd Jones]

Like, that's cool. If you don't think. If you don't write songs based around what you think they want. I. I wouldn't say I write songs based around what I think they want, but we write songs based on, you know, we have a fan base. Are people. Is our fan base gonna with this or not?

[Bo]

Right?

[Todd Jones]

Like, and there's like an intent. It's like.

[Bo]

Intention is everything with music. It is. I have found.

[Colin]

Speaking of, were you writing. Do you write nails parts at least for these first? These three LPs, like the, the three that we're talking about. Obviously we'll get past it. But are you writing parts for the intent of. Of people to beat ass? Like, is that something you are even considering when you're writing the breakdown to Wide Open Wound?

[Todd Jones]

Well, let's talk about Wide Open Wound and then let's get back to your point.

[Colin]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

The. But that was the first riff written for the record Abandoned All Life.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

Like within a month after coming home from unsilent death, that riff was written. So like that was the first thing. And that's one of my favorite nail songs.

[Bo]

So that's where your mind was right after a blistering fast record, like on sound.

[Todd Jones]

Okay. Not necessarily so. Okay. So the breakdown of Wide Open Wound.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Was very hard to make because the song Wide Open Womb, the first half of it's already a mosh part.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

So how do you. How do you outdo a mosh part that's already.

[Bo]

How do you mosh the mosh?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Like so. So the. So the last part of that song we had written like three or four different times. And it's good. I love it. I love the whole song. Now with that being said, when writing a record, when you're starting from scratch, writing a record is like putting together a 200 piece puzzle in the dark.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

And the way that I. The way that works for me is the first thing I do is I. I gather riffs. I don't sit down and say I'm gonna write a song like this or I'm gonna Write a song like that. Or I'm gonna write a song to. With this intention. I just play guitar and some. You know, if I play guitar for 30 days straight, I might not come out with one riff. Like that's why it takes three years to write a nails record.

[Bo]

Totally.

[Todd Jones]

And like I, I don't know when it's gonna happen. But like when I'm in my bedroom playing guitar and I hear something and I'm like, oh, I like that. Okay, bank it. Maybe record it or just play it enough so you remember it one single part.

[Bo]

Sometimes.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, just one single part. And after you got about like 5 to 10 of those parts, it's like, well, do anything's work together. And at first you might not be like, none of this works together. But until you try it out, be like, oh, this riff. And that riff sounds fucking killer.

[Bo]

Do you ever have too many that work together and then you've got to separate them somehow?

[Todd Jones]

Give me an example.

[Bo]

That's my hardest thing is I'll have four riffs that'll be like, these are perfect together. But it's too much for one song.

[Todd Jones]

Oh yeah, that's. That's where restraint, restraint is a very big quality about making music. Like restraint, restraint, like knowing when not to do something or knowing when to pull something back.

[Bo]

Sure.

[Todd Jones]

And not make it overloaded. Everything for me is based off of instinct and also energy. Like punk rock and hardcore to me and even metal. Like for me like what I get out of it is the energy. Like, is energy being maintained. Like, like I like listen like I'm famously known for making albums that are under 20 minutes because then it goes out of, you know, because I just want the energy. I don't like not saying you can't make an album full of energy over 20 minutes, but like this is going to sound up. But I don't need a 20 song grindcore album.

[Colin]

Sure.

[Todd Jones]

Not necessary.

[Bo]

That's fair.

[Todd Jones]

No band has made a 20 song grind core album that starts at song one and ends at song 20. And like you're still interested in. By song 20?

[Colin]

Sure, yeah.

[Todd Jones]

If you are.

[Bo]

The wall is like the longest good, great thing, you know, and it's long.

[Todd Jones]

So to answer your question, Bo, I just, I just write, I just bank riffs until I have enough riffs where I could. You could make a song out of it. And, and, and that's kind of how it goes. And sometimes the riffs don't work. Sometimes they do. Just go. Just go with your instinct, go with your gut.

[Bo]

And I. And like, as I've. As I've noticed from the one riff, and they come crawling back. Do you ever get hung up on a riff for years at a time just having. No, no. What do I do with this thing?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, absolutely. There's definitely. Yeah, the riff. And they come crawling back. That was. That was a riff for years that I didn't know where to put in a song.

[Bo]

Every incarnation of that thing. Yeah, I like them all. I like the slow one. I like the really slow one. And I liked how it ended.

[Todd Jones]

Gonna.

[Bo]

Dude, you remember that version?

[Todd Jones]

Dude, that riff. I love that riff forever. And I just didn't know what to do with it. And it finally.

[Bo]

Like.

[Todd Jones]

I think I had that. I think we had that riff on a. When we were writing Abandoned All Life. Yeah.

[Bo]

Oh, you did.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

I remember on every. Multiple demos of multiple songs.

[Todd Jones]

That's. That's where restraint comes on sometimes. Just like this. This isn't working. I gotta put it down and go move on to something.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Don't.

[Todd Jones]

Don't force Sometimes if you don't do that, you. I don't know. Some song. I don't know.

[Bo]

Do you have a favorite song on the record?

[Todd Jones]

Which record?

[Bo]

A Band Alive.

[Todd Jones]

Absolute Control, the third song.

[Bo]

That's a great song.

[Colin]

Oh, wow.

[Todd Jones]

Saber wrote some of that Deep cut.

[Bo]

You.

[Todd Jones]

Well, it's a third song. It's. It's deep, but it's also. It's not like a. It's not like a prioritized song. It's not a single. I love that. Oh, Wide Open Wound. Wide Open Wound is my favorite song off that record.

[Bo]

It's a great song.

[Todd Jones]

Side B.

[Bo]

You opened with it this year.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, at the fya.

[Bo]

That was crazy.

[Todd Jones]

I needed to make an impression.

[Bo]

You really did, man. That was fucking wild.

[Todd Jones]

Cool.

[Bo]

I think Bo and I were standing next to each other and you just went into it and we were like, opening.

[Colin]

What?

[Bo]

That was awesome. Pardon this interruption. Once again, this episode is also brought to you by Manscaped.

[Todd Jones]

Per usual.

[Colin]

Per usual. From day one, you've got to quit.

[Bo]

Stinking, and it's our responsibility to let you know you stink. Especially if you're in there slam dancing the way that Todd wants you to. It's going to be foul. It's going to be mad odorous, and we've got to get rid of it. And manscaped is the ultimate tool to do that. With things like the crop preserver, the crop reviver, the crop duster, the foot duster. I know your dogs are barking and stanking and wet and nasty. We've got to take care of that together. Hard Lore and Manscaped.

[Colin]

They have new stuff coming out all the time. They've got a bald shaver guy for my bald. Gentlemen.

[Bo]

I know you motherfuckers are bald. And who knows? I may be there soon. And when I do, I can't wait to use this thing.

[Colin]

There you go.

[Bo]

Code Hard Lore is going to get you 20% off and free shipping. Site wide baby.

[Colin]

The craziest deal ever. What's going on?

[Todd Jones]

I'll buy any.

[Bo]

I'll buy a car for 20% off and free shipping right now. Send me the link.

[Colin]

What's coming up? We got. We got St. Patty's Day. We got five.

[Bo]

If you know an Irish guy who stinks, I have the perfect gift.

[Colin]

I think St. Patty's Day happened just a couple days ago. So maybe, maybe not that.

[Bo]

But if he's stinking from St. Patty's Day because he went so hard, get him the Hard Lore manscaped box set. Get him the collected works. 20% off. Free shipping. Code Hard Lore. This episode is lastly brought to you by the great AG1.

[Colin]

Do you take your AG1 today?

[Bo]

I drink my AG1 every single day. I love it so much. It's the first part of my morning routine on an empty stomach. A nice scoop of this tasty green powder. Sixteen ounces of cold water and there I have it. That's it. I've had my greens for the day. I can go eat chicken and rice and nothing else. And I don't have to get have the risk of getting scurvy someday like a nasty pirate.

[Colin]

Oh yeah.

[Bo]

Because I've done my body good. I've energized. I'm more energized than coffee. A lot of time just from the AG1.

[Colin]

I look forward to drinking my AG1 every single day. It's something that is just a part of my routine. I don't even think about it anymore. It's just part of what I do every single morning. It's great.

[Bo]

That's right. Do you want to have all the. The great probiotics and prebiotics that you've been missing this whole time?

[Colin]

Why not?

[Bo]

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[Colin]

That thing is amazing. The lid.

[Bo]

So just. Dude, the lid just. It just. It suctions right up. It's beautiful. So don't dawdle. Drinkag1.com Hardlore Back to the episode. So tell me about tours around Abandoned All Life.

[Todd Jones]

What do you want to know?

[Bo]

What were the. What were the big ones? What are the ones you remember? What are some fond and unfond memories?

[Todd Jones]

Well, a couple months before we recorded a band on Life. Converge took us out on a couple dates, and on the west coast, maybe, like, four or five shows. That was sick. And then we tour. We did a headlining tour with the Balba, and I think early Graves, and.

[Colin]

Then I think that came to Chicago.

[Todd Jones]

It definitely came to Chicago. It was Rumble.

[Colin]

Yeah. Cobra.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, Cobra.

[Bo]

Oh, that's the one where our tour ended and yours started.

[Colin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, dude, that. I have a cool story about that.

[Bo]

Let's go. I love that.

[Todd Jones]

No, I don't, because people are gonna think I'm talking, and it's about somebody who I really respect, so I just don't want to say it.

[Colin]

All right.

[Bo]

All right, we'll talk after. Anyway. Yeah, great. Our tour was good. I drove home sicker than I've ever been that day. And then I kept up with Taylor on that one, and he. He had a great time. You're up on Abandoned Life. Did you do that? I feel like that was when you guys did the, like, festival circuit for the first time.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, summer of 2014.

[Colin]

I remember.

[Todd Jones]

For two weeks. It was great. It was awesome. It was the first time I routed a European tour, and I'll never not route a European tour again.

[Bo]

You did it.

[Todd Jones]

I routed it. I didn't necessarily book it, so it can be done. I told the agent, this is these. These are the cities, and these are in the order in which we're gonna play them.

[Colin]

Holy. That's a dream.

[Todd Jones]

I'm not. I'm not letting a European promoter route a tour, you know, play here 12 hours, 16 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours.

[Bo]

You're not letting them throw darts at the map.

[Todd Jones]

Absolutely not. And this is why you need someone to, like, show young bands, like, the ropes about Europe. Yeah, Like, Europe's great. Europe's awesome. The continent is incredible.

[Bo]

Absolutely.

[Todd Jones]

The booking agents, they're not looking out for your best interest.

[Bo]

No, I would say they. They might be looking out for your worst interest.

[Todd Jones]

Okay, so we all agree on that.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

So I don't want anybody from Europe commenting on this talking because as an American, going to Europe and allowing a European booking agent to have full control of your tour will break up your band. I've seen so many bands break up after going to Europe for the first time because they have some driver who's like, all right, next show, 12 hours away. We're doing it overnight. Well, can you take us to go get food? No, we need to go. You.

[Bo]

I have not been back on a full tour in seven years for that reason, dude.

[Todd Jones]

I might. Nails might not ever go to Europe again. Like, I'm tired of it. Yeah. Like. Like, it's just. That was so wrong.

[Bo]

But the people.

[Todd Jones]

I don't know if I'm tired of it. I love your. I'll go to Berlin.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

I'll go to Hamburg. I'll go to. I'll go to Ghent. I'll go to UK all day. We'll go back to. We'll go to UK once a year.

[Bo]

Sure.

[Todd Jones]

But, like, mainland Europe, it's just like, dude, this is so challenging sometimes, dude.

[Bo]

Yeah, but the people are so passionate and incredible.

[Todd Jones]

Incredible people. Incredible people. It's just doing business there as an American band is challenging, and that's all I'll say.

[Colin]

We played together at Temple Fest in Manchester, and this was the. The really early on on a tour with Converge for us, but we played the same day, so I got to watch you guys. You did one of my favorite things I've ever seen you do. You're going into songs, you're feeding back, and you go, this song is about people who talk. And you go. And you. You rip the song. Still feeding back. Next song. This song, it's about people who talk. Rip the song. Third time you go, this song. And you do this move, dude. Where you went. This song, it's about people song. It's one of the best things I've ever seen.

[Bo]

Is that your favorite live Toddism?

[Colin]

No, it's the two Fists, baby.

[Bo]

That one's great.

[Colin]

Two Fists. Just. Just. Yeah. The. As someone watching this, like, thank you.

[Bo]

I'm fired up.

[Colin]

Yeah, I'm pumped.

[Bo]

I'm fired up. Let me tell you, my favorite side isn't for the song Tyrant, you know? You know this song's about me. It's called Tyrant.

[Todd Jones]

I get a little too enthusiastic.

[Bo]

How influential was the Phil Core Audio track?

[Todd Jones]

Oh, my God. That we quoted that all the time. It was awesome.

[Bo]

That took over. That took over parts of us inside.

[Todd Jones]

Didn't someone in hardcore like. Like, record that and put that out on the Internet?

[Bo]

They certainly did.

[Todd Jones]

Who was it?

[Bo]

I think it was friend of the show, old Benny B Roll.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Bo]

So I, you know, don't quote me. I'm pretty sure that was like the original, that it was his recording for sure.

[Colin]

I remember every time I die played that over the PA and pantomimed Phil Core. So like at a line by line, Keith like did it.

[Bo]

Oh, I can quote it front to back. To this day, no problems.

[Todd Jones]

One, two, three, Trunk.

[Bo]

One of the greatest things of all time. Yeah. And I. The song's about me. It's called Tyrant. Yeah, it always stuck with me. That's a good one. You remember the GQ article with the nail shirt that was like, hey, do you want to look like a sexy young guy? Here's some cool band shirts you can buy to look cool. And it was the nail. The skull shirt.

[Todd Jones]

I remember.

[Bo]

Pretty cool.

[Todd Jones]

I'll take what I could get.

[Bo]

Exactly. I would carry that with me. Hey, you know gq, they said I could. They could be sexy looking like me. So you will never be One of us is next around the corner. Another three year gap. Tell me about putting this record together. Say Abandoned All Life was the only record Saba did. So it's back to the the Core trio here. Do you have any fond memories writing and recording this with Taylor and John?

[Todd Jones]

Anything specific? I'm not really too sure. We, I mean we, we had a lot of moments together with. In Taylor's garage or Taylor's recording studio. Like being stoked on things.

[Bo]

Yeah. Like any, any songs that come to mind that felt like big revelations in the moment. Like, okay, we've. We've record now because. Because event all life was. There was a whole canceled session around it.

[Colin]

Ah.

[Bo]

And then now you guys are focused like, okay, it's back to just us. So we, we got to make this one work.

[Todd Jones]

I think the song you will never be one of us was like a very like, like, wow, this sounds great.

[Bo]

I remember the day that that was written and I remember the. What song am I thinking of?

[Todd Jones]

There's a part that's the last song. They come crawling back.

[Bo]

Yes. So that part too. When you demoed that, do you remember what you used as a reference for lyrical placement?

[Todd Jones]

No.

[Bo]

Submit your soul to the gods. Rock and roll. That was the placement and we were all like, oh, awesome. So that one has stuck with me as well. I really, I have such fond memories of like you guys being in there for five, six hours and I would go in and hear the demos and we would listen to him three or four times and you'd be like, that's what's up. Yeah, it's good. I'm gonna go. And then we'd spend the next few days listening to them more and absorbing them. And absorbing them. And it was always so special to hear those finished products. Like, I. I'm my brother's biggest fan.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Play drums because of him. I play music because of him. So. Nails is such a huge part of just my DNA, my upbringing. And I know Taylor learned a lot from you in the way he. He operates bands and. And his personal life. We both did this. This time was really. But this is the last full record that. That he played on. So it felt like he followed up the. The Monster again with another monster. And it was just as well received, which was. Which is again, very hard to do. Tell me about.

[Todd Jones]

I think it was received better.

[Bo]

Better, See? Did it sell better?

[Todd Jones]

Well, I think it had more reach than the other ones.

[Bo]

Sure.

[Todd Jones]

And I don't know why. I can't say why. I don't necessarily think I. I can't say that that's like a better record than the other two. But I think maybe the fact that like, we were on that three album run, maybe that helped things.

[Bo]

That. That's what it does. It's. You make a great record. People are excited to hear the next great record. So the next great record does well because the so great.

[Colin]

I remember we played Harm's Way, played in Pomona, and you came. It was at Aladdin's and you came and you grabbed me.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And showed me songs in your car. And I remember as soon as what's. It's the second song that has like the dude. And it was just like you told me.

[Todd Jones]

You said you guys did it again.

[Colin]

Yeah. I mean, that's how I felt. Because it's like, how do you marry. How do you marry floor punch and napalm death? You know what I mean? Like, seriously, how do you do that? And it was just like, oh, you did it. You did. You found a way.

[Todd Jones]

Love floor punch.

[Bo]

Straight edge, dude.

[Colin]

How about.

[Bo]

Let's talk about it?

[Colin]

Nails played this is Hardcore after show at Kung Fu Necktie.

[Todd Jones]

That's correct.

[Colin]

And you refuse to start until Porter made it.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

And you played in a floor punch jersey.

[Bo]

That's what's up.

[Colin]

Iconic.

[Todd Jones]

Did I play in a floor punch?

[Colin]

I believe so. I believe so, yeah.

[Todd Jones]

I mean, Porter was coming to the show. I'm not. I'm gonna wait for him.

[Bo]

Tell me about floor punch in your youth. Because it wasn't. That was a huge Band for you.

[Todd Jones]

That could be a second podcast, but let's do it.

[Colin]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

Well, the thing about Floor Punch, Porter was always very kind and patient and cool to really anybody who would talk to him or anybody who would, you know, if you like Floor Punch and you talk to him like, he was very patient. And one of my favorite Floor Punch memories is they played Oxnard. They needed a place to stay, so we took them to our friend's apartment and you know, all the other guys, they were wiped. They were like tired. Zusai was sitting there falling asleep on the couch and we were just talking about hardcore. And Porter was like, you know, if I could sound like any band, it would be Straight Ahead. And me and Zach were like, oh, we've, we've never heard that before. And Porter was like, oh my God.

[Bo]

Zeuside.

[Todd Jones]

They've never heard Straight Ahead. And it's like January 4th or 5th, very cold. Porter in shorts and a short sleeve T shirt, walks out to their van, gets like a burnt Straight Ahead cd, brings it back to the apartment. We listen to Straight Ahead for the first time.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Bo]

And is that not one of your fondest memories of your entire life?

[Todd Jones]

I mean, I was, I mean I was. It was just like Straight Ahead's like one of the best hardcore records ever. And in my opinion. And it was just like that, that moment kind of personified how cool Porter was to people and how cool he was to everybody and like as like an 18 year old or as a. I was 17 years old. As a 17 year old person who's still very, very, very, very fresh to hardcore. And you have these like older guys. Older meaning probably at that time, mid-20s.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Late 20s. Who were cool to you and like they were in a band you loved. Like it really made an impression. So there. That's.

[Bo]

I mean, that was you and Scott to me. You know.

[Todd Jones]

That's right.

[Bo]

We, we've got to have those. We've got to take care of the youth. It's. They are. This, this genre is for them at the end of the day.

[Colin]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Bo]

We must, we must support them anyway. Four Punch, one of the greats.

[Todd Jones]

Absolutely.

[Bo]

The distinctions between Floor Punch, Straight Edge and other Straight Edge was something we talked about briefly at fya.

[Todd Jones]

Really?

[Bo]

Yeah. You're saying Mike wasn't Four Punch traded?

[Todd Jones]

Mike who?

[Bo]

Cesario. Alec is Floor Punch Tray.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Bo]

Mike is not Floor Punch.

[Todd Jones]

Did I say that about Mike? I don't want to say things like that about people.

[Bo]

No, he knows. Don't worry. Okay, that's, that's fine.

[Todd Jones]

Alec is definitely floor certified 100.

[Bo]

Absolutely.

[Colin]

Just about.

[Bo]

So thoughts looking back at you will never be one of us as.

[Todd Jones]

Dude, I was really drunk that night. Huh?

[Bo]

At fya.

[Todd Jones]

The night we played or the night we didn't play?

[Bo]

The night you didn't play.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

It was awesome.

[Todd Jones]

It was terrible.

[Bo]

You were out on the town, dude. You were enjoying life.

[Todd Jones]

I was.

[Bo]

You're living it, dude. That's what it's all about. That's why it was what we're here for. Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

That's why I said that.

[Bo]

Floor Punch Straight edge.

[Todd Jones]

I. I just don't. I just don't. I just want to go around saying that to people. I guess I punished a lot of people that night.

[Bo]

Who cares, man? Then you played a great set and you open wide. Open wound floor punch.

[Todd Jones]

That's what's up.

[Bo]

That is what's up.

[Colin]

Thank.

[Bo]

I got a live one. That's good. So thoughts looking back at this time of your life, you and every one of us. As the final record with the. The Kind of OG Nails Trio.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Pretty good records.

[Todd Jones]

Which one?

[Bo]

You and every one of us.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, it's good record.

[Bo]

There you have it. Tours around that time. Do you remember a lot of them?

[Todd Jones]

We toured a lot on that record.

[Bo]

Do you look back at that fondly or is that. Are those.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, of course. Yeah, it was great. I mean there was. There. Oh my God. There was definitely times when I didn't enjoy myself, but like, whatever.

[Colin]

Sure.

[Todd Jones]

I mean we. We played a lot of great shows, we hung out, had a lot of great times and it was dope.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Colin]

It's very easy to get hung up and like miserable on tour and then you realize like, oh, I could be. I could be doing worse things. Like this is.

[Bo]

A lot of it sucks until the show starts and then you're like, damn, this is all I wanted. I've ever wanted.

[Todd Jones]

I guess being in Europe in the winter and not having access to a laundromat could really fuck up somebody's mind. I'll just leave it at that.

[Colin]

On that True. On. On our tour together, I played in sweat Taylor sweatpants because I couldn't dry my clothes in Europe.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Do you ever get to microwaving socks? Seeing Leo do it. It's dark days, Dara. Stark dark times. Microwave in the socks. Don't do it. Doesn't work. I don't want to know you. Endless Resistance. This is the last two songs 7 inch that Taylor would play on final recording with with him an incredible two song single featuring Max Cavallara. On Endless Resistance. This is where your personal and profit, I guess, professional relationship with him would start. How did that come to be?

[Todd Jones]

Sometime on the Abandoned All Life record, I woke up in the morning to go to work and I had a text from somebody and they were texting me an article online about Max giving nails props. And so I just reached out to his team and sent him a bunch of shirts. And Taylor and I went out to the House of Blues on Sunset and watched the Cavalier Conspiracy and went and hung out on his bus and just talked to Max and Igor and met those dudes and hung out with them and stuff. So we had kind of been acquainted with them and, and stuff. And then Max asked me to. To go up on a Soul Fly song to do a guest vocal on their record Archangel, which I did. It was dope, awesome. And then went to another Soul Fly show and I asked Gloria, his wife and manager. It's like, hey, can we get Max on a song? She's like, yeah. So we did.

[Bo]

And you know, Max and Igor, it needs to be said just, like, how cool they are and, like, they don't need to be that cool. You know, they paved the way, changed the game.

[Todd Jones]

They just still really like hardcore and metal and punk.

[Bo]

They love music. Yeah, that's the thing that sets. Sets everybody. That, that. That stands the test of time apart is just being Pat. The passion, first and foremost.

[Colin]

They. They. I. I just saw them a week ago at the House of Blues here in Chicago. I had. I had toured with Max, so I met. I've known him, but I met Igor for the first time. Couldn't believe how cool they were. Couldn't believe how, like, welcoming it was. Got to play some songs with them. It was fucking awesome. And it's like you said, like, their impact, I'm realizing, is more than even just riffs big time. It's kind of the. The mentality that goes with.

[Todd Jones]

What do you mean? Their impact?

[Colin]

Their impact for me personally is not so much like, oh, this riff is great. It's like, no, they were wearing Sick of It all shirts and they were always down and looking hungry for new music and trying to put new bands over and like, doing what? Like, things that I equate with music I want to be involved with. Do you know what I mean?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, I understand.

[Colin]

I just think I. I really do think the world of them. It's awesome.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, me too.

[Bo]

At that session in Arizona, Max would impart some knowledge onto you about some songs on Roots.

[Todd Jones]

That was. That was when Taylor and I went to go visit them at the House of Blues.

[Bo]

Okay. The famous quote, everything comes from somewhere. So I want to ask you, is there an unconventional thing you've taken and turned into a Nails riff?

[Todd Jones]

So many things.

[Bo]

Oh, could you tell me. Could you tell me a weird one? I don't know, like, are you turning Stevie Wonder dance sections into skank parts? You know?

[Todd Jones]

No, I always. I always think, like, this could be interesting if you did this with it.

[Bo]

Yeah. Whenever I'm listening to music and is it often non aggressive things that you're taking it from?

[Todd Jones]

I don't know. There had. There has to be something. It's just now that you ask the question, my mind goes, if it comes.

[Bo]

To mind, let me know. We'll put it in.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, man.

[Bo]

Here it is. Yeah. That seven inches, incredible. That would be Taylor's last contribution to Nails. And was that. So was that part. Was that initially supposed to be part of an album?

[Todd Jones]

So 2019, so you will never be one of us came out in 2016, so then naturally we should have put out an album in 2019.

[Bo]

Right.

[Todd Jones]

But we just didn't have the songs to do it. And we wanted to give somebody. We want to give our fans some music. So it's like. Like this is what we got. So we'll give it to you.

[Bo]

Sure.

[Todd Jones]

Even though I wish those songs were on a proper full length record, because I think those songs are. I mean, the strength of those two songs on one singular record. That might be the best Nails record.

[Colin]

Wow. Wow.

[Todd Jones]

I love that record.

[Bo]

I do too.

[Todd Jones]

I think those two songs personify Nails. Like, I think it's a perfect representation. Like if you were.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

If somebody was like, hey, what is Nail songs like? Like, just. It sounds like. Here, just listen to these two songs.

[Bo]

Listen. This one record blistering fast into punishing mid tempo. Yeah, done.

[Todd Jones]

That's it. That's what Nail sounds like.

[Bo]

Perfect. Yeah, you're right. Good call. 2019 would mark kind of a. Well, 2020 really would mark a change in. In all of music for everybody. Yeah, it was a. I know. I know. Nails. It's an unofficial hiatus. Every band went on unofficial hiatus just because of COVID But how did you use that time? Yeah, I know you did the Unsound Death podcast for a bit.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, I did a podcast?

[Bo]

Yeah. How was that?

[Todd Jones]

Overwhelming. I. I didn't have enough time. You know, every. During COVID everybody was being very creative.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

And they had a lot of time on their hands. I myself, I never got laid off my job. I always had steady work. I have a household. Like, I. I was just inspired by what I was seeing or around the people around me being creative. I was like, I think I'd have fun doing a podcast. And I did it, and I did have fun, but I realized I do not have the time for this.

[Bo]

It's a lot of work. Right?

[Todd Jones]

Well.

[Bo]

I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.

[Todd Jones]

Bo, he's the best. He does a lot of work.

[Bo]

He does a lot of work.

[Todd Jones]

He's great, but it's a lot of work.

[Bo]

Work. I love you.

[Todd Jones]

Are you all right?

[Bo]

Oh, yeah.

[Colin]

No.

[Todd Jones]

Did that. Did that strike in there?

[Colin]

No, no, no. Todd, you. You could never.

[Bo]

Don't worry about it.

[Todd Jones]

Okay. Okay.

[Bo]

You started. And then. So this time off would. How. How do you get back to working with Terror?

[Todd Jones]

Oh, so, yeah, so the summer, like, probably July, June or July or August of 2020, Scott hits me up. He's, you know, he asked me if I was interested in working on a Terror record. And, you know, I was. I was still kind of. You know, I was still kind of playing guitar and not like, really getting too inspired about anything, nails wise. And I was like, you know what? That'd be a lot of fun. It would be a lot of fun to work with Terror on some terror music. And so.

[Bo]

So there's no. There's no real hesitance there. It's just like, fuck, yeah, that sounds awesome.

[Todd Jones]

That's what I'm gonna do because that's. That's. That's a good use of my time right now.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

So.

[Bo]

And had you been connected with them otherwise? Between one were the one with the underdogs and that time much?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, through friendship.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

Like, I'd always go to Terror shows. Scott. Scott would always throw the mic at me to sing a song. And, like, I was always like, you know, when I quit Terror, maybe there was like, a period where, like, we didn't really talk, but that period was very short, like maybe six months. Like, I remember Scott giving me, like, a burned copy of Always the Hard Way, like, you know, a couple months before it came out. So, like, We Were Always Cool, which.

[Bo]

Is the record right after One with the Underdog.

[Todd Jones]

That's correct, yeah. The record I left. So we were cool, man. We've always been cool. And so, like, I would go to terror shows, and sometimes I would go on stage and play guitar, and Martine would grab the mic and sing a song. And so we were always cool. But, yeah, like, Scott and I would text every now and then, and shouldn't.

[Bo]

Keep in touch and then paint into Power takes place.

[Todd Jones]

And I love that record, dude.

[Colin]

Yeah. As you should.

[Bo]

I. I really. I really think it's like, it, it's. It's an incredible ex, I think. I think it cements Terror as the greatest hardcore band ever. Like the fact that the longevity, there's not a single bad record, but making that this late into your career is damn near impossible.

[Todd Jones]

What's your favorite song?

[Bo]

Boundless Contempt, brother. I know it is. Come on. Is that a Todd riff?

[Todd Jones]

Is a. Is a group effort.

[Bo]

Nice. I love a group effort. Beautiful, incredible record. Great job. Can we expect more music producing on your end or more work with Terror?

[Todd Jones]

That's not for me to say, but, you know, I'm sure you know.

[Bo]

I do know.

[Todd Jones]

Okay. Whatever it is, that's not for me to announce.

[Colin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bo]

We love Terror here on the program. We love Todd's country Todd 100.

[Todd Jones]

They are one of the greatest hardcore bands.

[Bo]

You can't deny it this.

[Todd Jones]

And I'm not talking about my contributions. I'm just saying them, like, their live show. Like, I. I don't have anything. Pretend I don't have anything to do with it. I'm just a fan.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

They are one of the best hardcore bands to ever exist in my span of hardcore.

[Bo]

So now here we are, every bridge burning. It's time now the pain and power is done. You're ready to get Nails back on the road back playing shows. You want to come back strong with an lp, which I think is incredible. That's the way to do it. And if I could do it, I would. It's just hard to do, so. Pan and power. You've done that. It's time. It's Nails time again. What. What gives you this? Like, what's the moment where you're like, it's time, man. Nails gotta come back.

[Todd Jones]

It was always time. It was just. I just. I was just, like. Nothing was coming out of my hands that I liked.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Bo]

I know the feeling.

[Todd Jones]

Like, I was like. Just nothing was coming out, like. And like, you know, like, I love. I love what Nails does, but Nails has done three albums of it at that point. Up until that point, Nails has done three albums of it. It, like. What more do I have to say?

[Bo]

Interesting.

[Todd Jones]

Do you know what I'm saying?

[Bo]

I do, but it's also. It goes back to what you were saying about, like, you knowing what people want from you and giving them that.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. But also, like, if I'm not inspired to do something, it's Going to come out bad. 100 and so, like, the new Nails record is what I was inspired to do, and I love it. I think, like, that was like, when it. When we first recorded, I was like, okay, this is. This is the best Nails record. This is my favorite one.

[Bo]

And have you ever felt that way before when recording a Nails record?

[Todd Jones]

Because on Silent Death.

[Bo]

Okay, okay. So it's the first time you felt that feeling since 15 years ago, probably. That's very special.

[Colin]

So that. What was the writing? Was that writing process all you, or were you writing?

[Todd Jones]

No.

[Colin]

With the guys?

[Todd Jones]

I mean. No, no, no, no, no. So Shelby was a first member. I picked up and I met Shelby when Ulthar toured with Nails in the summer of 2019. And we stayed in touch. And I was explaining my situation about how I had to rebuild Nails one day, and he mentioned, oh, I play music with you. And I was like, really? Like, he's like a progressive death metal dude. Like, I figured, like, maybe Nail stuff would be not his lane, but I was surprised. I was like, great, You're a great guitar player. I really like all the things you write. Let's. Let's play together then. And then I started. I found Carlos and reach out to Carlos, and Carlos was down to play. And we started rehearsing in September of 2022.

[Bo]

Oh, wow.

[Todd Jones]

I had some stuff. Like, I had the song. I had. I had some stuff, but not a lot. And what we did was we just rehearsed once every two weeks until the record was written.

[Bo]

Until. So two years, basically.

[Todd Jones]

Well, we recorded the record in October of 2023, so about 13 months. And then when I was at God City, I tried to do my vocals and it just wasn't happening. My voice wasn't rehearsed and so rehearsed my Vocal for like two or three months. And then January of 2024, recorded all the vocals and then had the record mixed and then Nuclear blasted their thing and got it out in August of 2024.

[Bo]

Crazy. Was there any Nails material demoed or written between that time that didn't make the cut?

[Todd Jones]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Carlos and I demoed a bunch of Anytime Anytime Nails makes a record, even in the past. Yeah, there's generally half a record written that didn't make it.

[Bo]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

Like five songs.

[Bo]

I mean. Yeah, I've heard a lot of them.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. So it's like. And it's. They're not bad, but they're not great. Or maybe they are good, but they just don't have a place on a Nails record.

[Bo]

Sure.

[Todd Jones]

Like, that's restraint. That's where restraint comes in when you realize. I don't know. That this song fits in with these other 10 songs. It's good. I like it. But maybe we should leave it off.

[Bo]

Trypticon Shatter. They left it off.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And then it's really good. And then Andrew comes into the fold.

[Todd Jones]

He does.

[Bo]

And he's incredible.

[Todd Jones]

Absolutely.

[Bo]

I feel like he's. He's the. He's like a John and Taylor presence combined almost.

[Todd Jones]

Andrew's Andrew.

[Bo]

Andrew is Andrew for sure.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

But I mean, the. The goodness of. Of. Of having both of these incredible people with you. It's. It's. You don't have to be like, I missed what I had because you've got Andrew.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, I definitely miss John and Taylor, of course.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Right. I'm glad to hear that. But Andrew as a guy, so easy to get along with, incredible bass player, just a. A shining presence.

[Todd Jones]

Sadly, we picked up Andrew after we recorded the record. I really wish we picked him up before because working with him now, he has like a lot of really, really good input and he's like, really, really. He's just a great musician, but. But he's going to be heavily involved in writing the next Nails record. You already have like two songs for us.

[Colin]

Hell yeah. Sick. Breaking news breaking.

[Bo]

And there's two songs and he's the best, so I can't wait to hear Apparition. My God, what a band.

[Todd Jones]

What a band.

[Bo]

What a band.

[Todd Jones]

Shout out Miles.

[Bo]

The biggest shout out to Miles. One of my favorites. Yeah. So here we are. Every bridge burning is out.

[Todd Jones]

You.

[Bo]

You did your first tour back just a few months ago. Got to play some shows on that that was really special. It's nice to be part of it.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. I'm glad you guys are on it.

[Bo]

It was awesome. Of course. Thanks for having us. The Belasco gig as. As just a hometown Nails gig with one best live performance at the Hard Lore Awards for last year. Truly a sight to behold. You had Max there. You have the biggest, like, regular show, hometown crowd you've ever had.

[Todd Jones]

Right? Yeah.

[Bo]

And you made it times.

[Todd Jones]

Like two or three, maybe.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Times two or three. That's where we are. That's where Nails is. You made a once in a lifetime spectacle with having Nails there. Tell me about how that tour went overall, how the response was for the record and how you're feeling.

[Todd Jones]

The tour, like on the east coast, like all the dates was the biggest Nails tour to date.

[Colin]

That's crazy.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, it was awesome. It was really like super appreciative and super stoked that so many people came out. It was a great tour. It was a successful tour. And then what was the second thing you said? The response to the record.

[Bo]

Yeah, response to the record.

[Todd Jones]

It's been really good. And now, I mean, I. I think the. The new record's a little polarizing for.

[Bo]

For Nails fans, you've seen polarizing remarks on it.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. I think the thing. The new. The thing is with this new record, like. Like the thing that got me excited about playing guitar again was being a little bit more expressive with my left hand. And like, I feel like the first three records are, like very compressed. Like, it's like a. Like a. Just a compressed fist.

[Colin]

Sure.

[Todd Jones]

This. This one's like. It's a little more open hand slap.

[Bo]

Yeah. I mean, songs like Give Me the Painkiller. Yeah, you're really.

[Todd Jones]

No more rivers to cross.

[Bo]

Yes, You're. You're riding the neck.

[Todd Jones]

You know, there's this out of the box. There's some. There's some new. There's some new elements. And, like, I could understand, like, if you liked Nails for, like, the very extreme stuff, then I think that stuff's on the new record, but maybe it's not going to scratch your itch, and that's okay. But I do think it. I do think it's in line with the quality of the other Nails records. But, yeah, the records are doing great. It's opened some doors for us, and it's dope. I like it a lot.

[Bo]

You got that Obituary Terror tour coming up. It's one of the coolest.

[Colin]

Oh, yeah.

[Todd Jones]

I'm so excited.

[Colin]

That's right.

[Todd Jones]

The ad mat or the. The design. The tour poster for that looks so cool.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And it lives forever. Yeah, it's beautiful. We. Bo, do you have anything before we do our Patreon questions?

[Colin]

I am ready for the questions.

[Bo]

Let's do it. We got some good stuff in here. We had members of the Hard Lore Patreon.

[Todd Jones]

Can I. Can I drop an exclusive?

[Colin]

Absolutely, you can, by all means.

[Todd Jones]

Me and Ryan from Carry on are doing a new band and it sounds just like Carry On.

[Colin]

Wow. So what wow? How far along are we?

[Todd Jones]

I got five songs demoed on my phone. Ryan's writing a youth code record. And then.

[Colin]

And then it's time.

[Bo]

Is there a name yet?

[Todd Jones]

No, no name yet.

[Bo]

Will you play Carry on songs?

[Todd Jones]

That's the plan.

[Colin]

Okay. It's all I needed. That's a great year.

[Bo]

That's a beautiful year.

[Colin]

That's great to Hear, I, I love the idea that you are 4 LPS deep into nails and you want to pick up where Carry on left off for that project.

[Todd Jones]

I don't want to pick up or Carry on left off. I want to play music with Ryan that sounds exactly like Carry On.

[Colin]

Love it.

[Bo]

It's awesome.

[Colin]

Well, well said.

[Todd Jones]

Sorry. Maybe that's. Maybe our points are the same. Sorry, dude.

[Bo]

The intention is the intention.

[Todd Jones]

So these are questions, folks.

[Bo]

Yeah, I'll get to those in a minute. But the first one brings back something I want. I wanted to talk about was breaking edge.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. I stopped being straight edge.

[Bo]

Do you think that was a positive? I, I, I. Let me tell you, from my perspective, I think that was a positive thing in your life.

[Todd Jones]

Why?

[Bo]

I think you're just a more chill guy now. You don't think so?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, but I don't know if that's like, related to not being straight edge.

[Bo]

I think I will say, I think the impact of weed on you at first was like, man, Todd's really chilled today. This is awesome.

[Todd Jones]

How was I before? Not sure.

[Bo]

You're just a little high strung maybe.

[Todd Jones]

Fair enough.

[Bo]

Break a guitar every now and then, you know?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, done that.

[Bo]

Give a favorite guitar. You've broken like one. You were like, I shouldn't have done that.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, I do. But we're not gonna talk.

[Bo]

All right, say no more. Speaking.

[Colin]

Speaking of guitars, though, Ty, I. I know I've told you this before, but I knew I want to talk about it on the show. My very first youth crew band with Chris in it played with Champion at. In Chicago and Arun. I broke a string and Arun handed me his guitar. Played. Yeah, played the set.

[Todd Jones]

Shout out to Harun Khan.

[Colin]

And I was like, dude, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. He said, no problem, dude. It's my friends. Check out the. The plate. And where we would say standard or. Or custom. Said Todd Jones.

[Bo]

Yeah, baby come what's up?

[Colin]

And little me.

[Todd Jones]

I have that guitar. Still beautiful. Carry on recorded on that guitar.

[Colin]

Yeah. You brought it to Europe. I remember when, when we were there, it was the same one, right? Tobacco. Oh, okay.

[Todd Jones]

Now. It was a black studio.

[Colin]

It was a black studio. You're absolutely right. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[Bo]

All right. Are there any modern bands you think are genuinely doing something innovative that might be looked at as a game changer in the near future?

[Todd Jones]

Why don't you go? Well, you're not going to just go down?

[Bo]

No, no, we're going to skip some.

[Todd Jones]

Why are they whack?

[Bo]

I just want the bangers this guy said, how did it feel? Breaking edge?

[Todd Jones]

I, I, so who's that? Brandon. Brandon Espinosa. So, Brandon, I was 30 years old. I went to the dentist and I had to get two root canals and they gave me Vicodin and I took a Vicodin and I felt like what I perceived a happy person to feel like, wow. So, like every once on a Saturday, once every month, I had like a bottle of like 20 of these things. And on a Saturday, like once every other month, I would take one and I would relax. And then I realized this is definitely not straight edge behavior.

[Bo]

Like that was. You're like, I think I'm gonna take do some recreational drugs every other Saturday. This is nice.

[Todd Jones]

I didn't think about it like that. It was like it. And it's probably because I wasn't thinking, honestly. But it's just that's what happened and that's, that's felt pretty good.

[Bo]

I know. I, so when I, I had appendicitis, famously. It's well documented. And I was prescribed Norco for, for sleeping, for pain. Best sleep I've ever had.

[Colin]

Exactly.

[Bo]

And it was so good that I was like, I'm never, I can never do that again because it's the best thing I've ever done.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

So I guess you had the wherewithal just to say, no, I didn't.

[Bo]

I know that heroin is the dopest thing ever, you know, So I can't, I can't do it because I know.

[Todd Jones]

There'S a reason why people get hooked on it.

[Bo]

Exactly. It's got to be awesome.

[Todd Jones]

Do you mind? Let's give these people what they want.

[Bo]

Let's do it. Sque said bring back Knife Fight.

[Todd Jones]

Not my choice. John's not interested in singing anymore.

[Bo]

There you go.

[Todd Jones]

Me and Nick Townsend tried.

[Colin]

Damn.

[Bo]

Nick Townsend, mastering engineer, legend.

[Todd Jones]

Shout out to Nick Man Dog. For sure.

[Bo]

Dan McKinley might be a bit late, but would love to know what you're most looking forward to about the upcoming Obituary tour.

[Todd Jones]

Hanging out with Tara.

[Bo]

Nice.

[Todd Jones]

And nails.

[Bo]

Great.

[Colin]

Beautiful.

[Bo]

Zach Honeycutt asked the question I asked earlier. Are there any modern bands that you think are genuinely do something innovative that might be looked at as a game changer in the near future?

[Todd Jones]

Lock Slip.

[Bo]

Great.

[Todd Jones]

And Mongrel.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Great. And Come on, you're two for two.

[Todd Jones]

Mongrel. I mean, they're just like Suffocation and Cannibal Corpse, but they're going to be, they're going to, they're going to do something real big. That EP smokes it's so rocks. It's grade A material. Like, like, like bands will come up and, and, and, and they won't become like a thing until certain people co sign in it totally. Or like some sort of event happens. Mongrel's gonna have that event soon and that's going to be a band that's.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Bo]

I agree. I agree so much that I heard it for the first time and texted them and said, hey, whatever I gotta.

[Todd Jones]

Do, I can't stop listening to that ep.

[Bo]

That's so good. Baptized in the Gutter out now on days in hard lore. Check it out. Alec Osborne asked, as Nails has gotten more popular, do you find that the crowd participation has changed due to, say, reaching a wider audience? Or is it mainly just dependent on the type of venue the show is being played?

[Todd Jones]

Depending on type of shows being played. Like, like Nails is a band that, like, we need that mosh energy, that slam dance energy. And you know, if we play a show with a barrier, sometimes that energy can get kind of flattened. Like at the Chicago show we played.

[Colin]

Yep.

[Todd Jones]

Great show, Great audience participation, but. But not as wild as some of the other Chicago shows we played.

[Colin]

Sure.

[Todd Jones]

With that being said. Nah, nah, Nails. Nails will always have that hardcore energy, hardcore punk rock energy.

[Bo]

When it comes to Nail shows, did you ever consider just doing vocals and bringing in another guitarist?

[Todd Jones]

No, because I'm a. I, I look at myself as a guitarist first and a vocalist second.

[Bo]

Do you have a favorite riff on Pain into Power?

[Todd Jones]

Riff? I don't look at riffs like some people do. Like Smoke on the Water is a riff. Iron man is a riff.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Minor Threat, Straight Edge. That's not a riff. Like a riff to me is something that like you could almost. It's almost like a vocal melody.

[Colin]

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

[Todd Jones]

Like, sure, in a way. And I don't think hardcore. A lot of hardcore people will say, oh man, this hardcore band has a ton of riffs. And I'm not going to tell you they don't or I'm not going to tell you whatever. I just don't really think that way. I think hardcore guitar playing is more about being percussive. Percussive is good and it doesn't necessarily mean it's not a riff. I just, I think that riff, I think that word's a little played out and doesn't pertain to hardcore. Now with my. Now you asked me about what's my favorite riff on that record. My favorite part on that record is my favorite song on that records. Can't Help but hate. I like that's. That's my favorite song. Boundless Contempt, Unashamed. The song Pain Into Power, those are my favorite songs on that record. And I just like the energy of the song Pain Into Power best. It's like quick in, quick out. Like straight up. Like hardcore song in every sense of the word. My opinion.

[Bo]

Agreed. Great answer. Do you have a guilty pleasure band or record?

[Todd Jones]

Record a lot.

[Bo]

Cool. Cool. If you could work with one producer, who would it be? And why were you with Taylor and John when they ran into Bob Rock?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. In Vancouver? It was so sick. We punished the out of him.

[Colin]

Did you really?

[Todd Jones]

You know what's crazy, the craziest thing about that is he flew economy.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

That dude gets points from the blackout, right?

[Bo]

Maybe the wells run dry, you know, the therapist ran out. You know, he ain't getting paid anymore. But Bob. Bob's for sure.

[Colin]

I think he's doing. Bob is just a bit of a penny pincher, to be honest.

[Bo]

Maybe economy.

[Todd Jones]

Who's the person who asked about Guilty Pleasure?

[Bo]

Zach Honeycutt.

[Todd Jones]

Zach. I don't. I don't have. I don't refer to music as guilty pleasures, but I probably listen to a lot of things people wouldn't expect me to listen to. I'll tell you one. On the way up here to come to Collins, I listened to the album Sea Change by Beck.

[Colin]

Great record. Outstand. That's a staple. In the Harm's way then.

[Todd Jones]

Awesome.

[Colin]

Listen to it all the time.

[Todd Jones]

Love that record.

[Bo]

Excellent answer. Let's see what Nails Fusion was.

[Todd Jones]

Nails Fusion, Zach. Just like.

[Bo]

That's what I'm saying. I guess sometimes you gotta feel.

[Todd Jones]

All right. All right. Just getting greedy. What's that? No, no, let him do it, though. What's he saying?

[Bo]

Was Nails fusion of genres done as intentional statement or just. Okay, there you go.

[Todd Jones]

So punk and metal.

[Bo]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Mr. Cheddar asks who? Mr. Cheddar.

[Colin]

Come on. Come on, man.

[Bo]

Who's. What's your favorite way to fight boredom? Past time while touring. And who is the worst driver? I do know there was one incident where Taylor missed one turn and you said, can somebody else drive, dude?

[Todd Jones]

All right, this is not negative towards Taylor. He'll. He would drive and straight up watch movies on his phone.

[Bo]

He's an animal.

[Todd Jones]

And you know the. You know the. You know, the guard and like, after the lane where it's like. It's like cut in the road. So, like, if your tires go, it's like. Yeah, we would. We would be. It would Be after a show and we would hear that all the time. So scary.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Anyway, I'm not gonna say he's a worst driver, but I mean, that's.

[Bo]

He's never. He's never gotten an accident.

[Todd Jones]

What, did he have any. What. What was it? How do I fight for Nintendo Switch?

[Bo]

Oh, what are you playing on.

[Todd Jones]

The Nintendo? The NES subscription. So I just play like Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 I grew up with.

[Bo]

You got Fortnite it.

[Todd Jones]

No, I want to like fort.

[Bo]

I'm gonna get. I'll get you on it.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Bo]

I got you.

[Todd Jones]

My daughter plays it.

[Colin]

Yeah. It's fun. It's fun.

[Todd Jones]

The concept of the game is amazing. Like you fly in and kill people.

[Bo]

I'm telling you, it's the greatest game of all time.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Bo]

I will get you there. What is your most meaningful tattoo?

[Todd Jones]

Man, I. I got so many tattoos that I stopped.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Putting meaning to them. I just get a tattoo.

[Bo]

Give me a. Cool.

[Todd Jones]

So my favorite tattoo is some I have up on my.

[Bo]

Understood.

[Colin]

I was going to say, I think tattoos become fun when you stop giving a shit.

[Bo]

Give me a drag.

[Todd Jones]

Exactly. Yeah. Just give me something that looks good.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Give me a cool guy.

[Colin]

That's all I need.

[Bo]

Give me a skull. Any skull is the coolest thing. How is the creative process for you changed from the old lineup of nails to the current.

[Todd Jones]

It hasn't.

[Bo]

There you go. Are there any albums this is a good question outside of your own project you wish you had been a part of?

[Todd Jones]

Oh, yeah, a lot. Like. Like what? Like, do you wish you wrote this song?

[Bo]

I wish I wrote Master Killer, obviously, you know.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. I mean, that's. That's such a hard question to ask. So say the question one more time.

[Bo]

Are there any albums outside of your own projects you wish you'd been a part of?

[Todd Jones]

I mean, there's things that I wish I could do that other people have mastered and I wish I could do them. I wish I. I wish I could be in a band like Neurosis. I wish I could write 10 minute long atmospheric songs. It's just not my. And it's not how my brain works.

[Bo]

It's a great answer. Not a question. But Rip Cola Boy, Oxnard legend.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Shout out Cola Boy. Rip Cola Boy.

[Bo]

I was just thinking about him the other day. Put don't forget your neighborhood on what a unbelievable song. Hits even harder. Now, this is a great question. If you could form a super group using all of your former bandmates, who would you pick and what genre?

[Todd Jones]

I for sure, Martin on guitar.

[Bo]

Love it.

[Colin]

It.

[Todd Jones]

I was never in a band with Martin, but we did the Terror record together, and he's one of the tightest guitar players I've ever played with.

[Bo]

And he knows the riffs before you teach him to him.

[Todd Jones]

That is correct. He.

[Bo]

Dude.

[Todd Jones]

Yes. So Martin and me on guitar, I mean, we have to know the style, though, because it's up to you.

[Colin]

Genre you're playing, you get to decide.

[Todd Jones]

I think the genre would be term determined by who's in the band, who's singing.

[Bo]

That's huge.

[Todd Jones]

Of somebody I've been in a band with.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Either Ryan George or George Hirsch.

[Colin]

Ah.

[Bo]

Two great options.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

And that's two. Two completely different directions. Really?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

I'm liking this band.

[Colin]

You got a demo or.

[Bo]

Okay. I mean, that's a good three piece. Who's on drums? Who's on drums?

[Todd Jones]

More than anything, it has to determine the style. Like, what are we doing? Are we doing some heavy or are we doing some punk rock?

[Colin]

Let's do some. Do some fast stuff. Some fat dude.

[Bo]

We didn't talk about Fireburn and Todd Youth.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. We have to.

[Bo]

What was that like, dude? Rip.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. It was one of the best. It was the best musical experience I've ever had in my life.

[Bo]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

Playing with Nick Townsend and Todd Youth. Todd is, you know, I gotta shout out Martine. But as far as, like, Todd is the best guitar player to ever play hardcore guitar.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

Like, his. His. His feel and also his stage presence. Like, that dude is hardcore guitar playing right there. And more. He could do so much more.

[Bo]

Danzig. Yeah. Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

He. He, like, just watch. Being in a band with him, I learned so much. It was awesome.

[Bo]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

And I miss him all the time.

[Bo]

Beautiful. Beautiful. Rip. Todd Youth.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Fireburn. Todd played on this incredible record. What's it called?

[Todd Jones]

Don't Stop the Youth.

[Bo]

Don't Stop the Youth. It's insane. I don't know that the spirit of Bad Brains has ever been captured so, so well by another band.

[Todd Jones]

Even had a Bad Brain singer on it.

[Bo]

I know.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

He did it all.

[Colin]

It's crazy.

[Bo]

Spirit.

[Todd Jones]

Shout Out. It was real.

[Bo]

Last local show you went to that you weren't playing. I see it all the time.

[Todd Jones]

I go to shows all the time. The last one I went to, Rose Tattoo. That's not a local show.

[Bo]

First. First American tour in like 50 years.

[Todd Jones]

Or some, I guess. Yeah, I guess. God's Hate at the Belasco.

[Bo]

Oh, yeah. That was cool.

[Todd Jones]

To God's Hate and Rotting Out.

[Bo]

And how involved were you lyrically on a Lifeless, plagued Ryan and George.

[Todd Jones]

Ryan. George and I wrote the lyrics to Off My Chest, which was recorded on the 7 inch before we did A lifeless plague in a car the night before we recorded it.

[Bo]

Really?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Todd Jones]

So I. I can't take 100 credit for that because we did it together. But that's. That' really it. Other than that Ryan. That was all Ryan. Those are all Ryan's lyrics.

[Colin]

Did you ever at any point have a critique about how often he said on that record?

[Todd Jones]

Not until after the record came out.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

And it wasn't a critique. It was more of, like, praise.

[Colin]

Okay.

[Bo]

Damn. You really made hit eight times in a row in this one part. That's crazy. Awesome. What are you. Do you write now? Now, when you write music, do you write in a daw, like Logic or garageband or straight up in a while jamming with human beings?

[Todd Jones]

What I'll do. Not with human beings. What I'll do is I'll be in my bedroom, be playing guitar, and if I have a cool riff, maybe I'll record it into the computer. Maybe I'll just wait until rehearsal.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

It's.

[Colin]

Put it in there. Wow.

[Bo]

I forgot to mention one of my favorite things that you do that I wonder if you still do when writing riffs. You'd go, oh.

[Todd Jones]

Well.

[Bo]

To see if you could sing over it, right?

[Todd Jones]

No, not to see if you can sing over it, because you might have a cool vocal pattern in your head already. Already. And that was probably just the vocal pattern I had for that.

[Bo]

How do you feel about Betrayed nowadays?

[Todd Jones]

Good.

[Bo]

Cool. Me too. I think that's the most melodic hardcore man that I genuinely love.

[Colin]

Oh, interesting.

[Bo]

I love. I love the Betrayed discog. And I don't like a lot of music like that. And this the suffering title track. Really? With Unreal. Check it out. Shrug. Favorite spots in Cali when you just need to chill and take in some lovely scenery.

[Todd Jones]

Laurel Canyon.

[Bo]

Great.

[Colin]

Beautiful.

[Bo]

Yeah. 81 8.

[Todd Jones]

No dog.

[Bo]

Oh, come on. Take up with the. The Valley.

[Todd Jones]

Studio City. I'm going to Hollywood.

[Bo]

That's a one. Get it.

[Todd Jones]

Come on.

[Bo]

That's. What are they.

[Todd Jones]

What is it called? No, I'll go to studio.

[Bo]

That's Crescent Heights.

[Todd Jones]

That's Crescent Heights, obviously.

[Bo]

Obviously. What's your Mount Rushmore of Metallica riffs. They got. Do they got riffs or they got parts?

[Todd Jones]

They have riffs up the ass. Metallica Rifts. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is the breakdown for Damage Inc. Black End. The. Basically the whole song.

[Colin]

Whole song.

[Todd Jones]

Whole song. I don't know everyone. Every single from Kill Them all to the. To Even Black album. Every single riff.

[Bo]

Love it. It's a big Mount Rushmore. They're gonna have to make some more heads.

[Todd Jones]

Are you skipping around? I want to go down the whole thing.

[Bo]

No, we're doing them all. We're doing them all.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Bo]

I'm just paraphrasing some things to. To get to the point.

[Todd Jones]

Very good.

[Bo]

What's different about playing in front of metal audiences versus hardcore audiences? From an artist perspective, which genre do you feel has worse Punishers?

[Colin]

Interesting.

[Todd Jones]

I don't. I. Nails doesn't play a show to just one or the other.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Sometimes more of one. One is at the other, but that would depend on if we're supporting somebody.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Nails crowd.

[Colin]

So, like the Obituary tour. How's that?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

Obituary, Terror, Nails. That's gonna be.

[Todd Jones]

Gonna be a gang of hardcore there.

[Bo]

100.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Like so. I don't. I don't even know if what the majority crowd's gonna be like that. That. Yeah. But there's. There's. On the strength of Nails, Terror and Spirit World and Pest control. There's gonna be a bunch of hardcore.

[Bo]

People that Big time. Can you tell us what you love about life? I want to know what Todd is tender about.

[Todd Jones]

What I love about life? Playing guitar.

[Colin]

Beautiful.

[Todd Jones]

Eating a really good meal.

[Colin]

Yeah. And speaking our language.

[Bo]

So nowadays, when you're touring, what's Nails eating like?

[Todd Jones]

Well, in Chicago specifically, there's a chef called Stephanie Izzard. She has a restaurant called called Girl and the Goat and Cabra in la. Those places. Awesome. I went to Girl and the Goat in Chicago is like bougie food.

[Bo]

Is that the best meal tour?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

I like Panera bread.

[Colin]

Really?

[Todd Jones]

That's your choice on tour? I try to eat light.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

But dude, Panera's secret boulders in you, though.

[Todd Jones]

Secret Boulder. Well, it's a lot of. It's a lot of carbs.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Big time. Yeah, big time. So you got to watch it. You can't eat like a bread bowl and a sandwich. You gotta eat a sandwich and just an apple or something.

[Bo]

Have you tried the lemonade? That kills you from.

[Todd Jones]

Nah. No, it kills people.

[Bo]

It's good.

[Todd Jones]

So is heroin.

[Bo]

That's true. But yeah. Yeah.

[Colin]

Todd, you were an early supporter of newly opened in. In California, Portillo's Hot Dogs in Oxnard in Buena Park. Excuse me. I remember you telling me, like, years ago, like, oh, yeah. I go there all the time. And I was like, yeah.

[Todd Jones]

What?

[Colin]

Because it wasn't, you know, it Was only.

[Todd Jones]

So there's one in Buena park and there's one in Moreno Valley. Celery. I think there's only two. And yeah, it's delicious. It's just like shitty American food. Hamburgers, hot dogs. And then the cake shake.

[Bo]

It's the best.

[Todd Jones]

I got the cake shake.

[Bo]

Most satisfying Nails record to you now on Silent Death. Wow.

[Colin]

Wow. In the. Remind me which song it is. But the riff on Unsilent Death where it's. You have to hit that wheel. Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

What'd you say?

[Colin]

And you have to hit that squeal. Do you ever just totally flub it?

[Todd Jones]

I mean, I'm not perfect at my squeals, dude. That's for sure.

[Colin]

That's a. That's for sure brutal one, huh?

[Todd Jones]

But the cool. But the cool thing is, is on that note, if you don't hit the squeal and you just hit the note, it still sounds pretty good.

[Bo]

It's high up there, right?

[Todd Jones]

No, no, no, it's the. It's the third fret on the G string.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Oh, cool. What is your favorite riff that isn't hardcore punk metal?

[Todd Jones]

It's such a hard question. I'll just say this. I've been listening to the first Crosby Stills in Nash record, like non Stop for like the past four years.

[Colin]

That's my. My. Oh, wait, Cross S. Nash and Young or just Crosby Stills Nash?

[Todd Jones]

Both. But the first one, the one Young.

[Colin]

Dude, that is my. I've been obsessed with that record.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, all those songs are in different tunings.

[Colin]

They're all incredible. And if you ever. You ever watch the. The Woodstock documentary, like the Long Ass, it's like three hours about Woodstock. It has their full. They. Oh, they play Judy Blue Eyes. They play the whole thing. Thing. And they say, this is our second gig, man. And they're playing to like a hundred thousand people.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Colin]

It's so awesome. So awesome.

[Todd Jones]

You know, I'll change my vote to A House of Pain by Van Halen for the guitar riff. Yeah, you know it.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, that. Holy.

[Bo]

I love that riff. That sounds like a bad brain song.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, I agree.

[Bo]

It's awesome.

[Todd Jones]

I agree.

[Bo]

Mount Rushmore of Breakdown. It's a tough one. There's a lot of them.

[Todd Jones]

That Breakdown song. Sorry. Been kicked around for too long Being over Just made me strong.

[Bo]

That's kickback. Kick back. That. I mean, that thing, that is like proto modern Breakdown, right?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bo]

Okay, great answer. Todd Jones favorite Slayer track.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, south of Heaven.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Best talk about a band that has amazing opening songs. That's my Favorite opening Slayer song. Just because of the atmosphere.

[Bo]

Great pick. Mount Rushmore. Couple tracks, artists.

[Todd Jones]

Lou Reed.

[Colin]

That's fun.

[Todd Jones]

That's. I don't even know. Like, literally artists that only have a couple tracks.

[Bo]

Yeah. The top four who only got a couple.

[Todd Jones]

Lou Reed solo only has a couple tracks, in my opinion.

[Colin]

Perfect.

[Todd Jones]

David Lee Roth solo only has a couple tracks.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

I don't know, man. I don't know.

[Bo]

All right. When I was a freshman in college, I ate a lot of instant ramen while listening to Unsound Death. Thank you, Shout Out.

[Todd Jones]

I hope you benefited from that somehow.

[Bo]

Favorite Indian dish. This is a great question, dude.

[Todd Jones]

Just banana, but not banana. Butter. Butter. Butter chicken.

[Bo]

Butter chicken guy.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

You got to come back. One of these days we're gonna go to.

[Todd Jones]

I'd love to have Indian food with you guys.

[Bo]

Let's do it. I've taken Bo there.

[Colin]

What's that? You get the cheese?

[Bo]

Paneer. Paneer masala, dude.

[Colin]

Unreal.

[Bo]

Game over, dude. You, me and Steven, come on back.

[Colin]

How's that shit?

[Bo]

Yeah. What exactly do you want to see when you tell the crowd to slam?

[Todd Jones]

Slam dancing circle pitting boom.

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

What are your favorite couple tracks from Lou Reed?

[Todd Jones]

I don't even Walk on the wild side.

[Bo]

It seems to me that he reinvents himself with not only every band, but with every album. Carry, Carry On Terror, and Nails all sound different, but are all groundbreaking and sick as nice, but are very different bands. Was making those changes or evolutions made consciously or something that came about naturally.

[Todd Jones]

I just love hardcore. I love many styles of hardcore. And I think we talked already on this podcast. I think the band members that you choose to start a band with kind of dictate the sound that you're going to go after. You're not going to start a death metal band with a guy who likes chain of strength and youth of today. Right?

[Colin]

Yeah.

[Bo]

I mean, you started. You started Nails with John Glue, you know.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. But like, he has heart.

[Bo]

Yeah.

[Todd Jones]

Like, true. Not that nobody else does.

[Bo]

There's a caveman in there that I think you knew.

[Todd Jones]

That's what I was. That's what I'm saying. Like, he's.

[Colin]

They're in his hands. Yeah, dude.

[Todd Jones]

His hands are larger straight up.

[Bo]

What is your grail guitar?

[Todd Jones]

Oh, I mean, I have a 1982 tobacco Vers, the Les Paul custom that I have. That's. That's probably my most cherished guitar. I used it in Terror during Low to Low and used it here and there and nails and other things. That's my Cherished guitar is a holy grail as far as one I could have. Not really. I got a gang of Les Pauls, so I'm good.

[Bo]

You really do.

[Colin]

You're good.

[Bo]

Does what, if anything, is your pre and post set getting ready? Coming down.

[Todd Jones]

Process pre. I got to listen to aggressive music. I got a. I got a hum. I got to warm up my.

[Colin]

Yo, you're. Who told you told James how to do that? Now that I'm.

[Todd Jones]

Well, I didn't tell him how to hum.

[Colin]

What? You told him to do it in order to preserve his voice on and.

[Todd Jones]

Does he do it?

[Colin]

He does it every set and has since we toured together.

[Todd Jones]

I'm honored.

[Colin]

It's crazy.

[Bo]

Go to karaoke song.

[Todd Jones]

Oh, get down tonight.

[Bo]

Somebody said. I hope they show the clip of Todd saying get down tonight after San and Fury next year.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Mike, Mike, Mike took a video of me doing.

[Bo]

Put it on.

[Todd Jones]

No, no, no. Maxi Mike.

[Bo]

Maxi Mike. Here's the video. Does your taste currently lean more. More metal or more. More powerful? Punk.

[Todd Jones]

More punk.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bo]

Have you seen the Todd Jones portrait painting?

[Todd Jones]

No, I don't want to see it.

[Bo]

I was collabing with Jeff Whitehead.

[Todd Jones]

Amazing.

[Bo]

Twice.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Yeah, he's pretty amazing. I. I'm so happy that his artwork represents or our. Represents our music. I feel like it's a good match.

[Bo]

When you pick up your guitar, what's the first riff you play?

[Todd Jones]

Play some. And minor Pentatonix.

[Colin]

Do you have a sound check? You have a sound check riff, Todd?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah, Danzig.

[Colin]

Beautiful.

[Todd Jones]

I love that riff.

[Bo]

Very good. And I think this last one, before I ask you our last question here will be the worst day you've ever had.

[Colin]

Jesus Christ.

[Bo]

Jesus.

[Todd Jones]

Okay.

[Bo]

All right. It's not today they do because. So, Todd, before we. Before we sign off here, I want to know. People want to know your top four hardcore records of all time.

[Todd Jones]

Okay. Minor Threat, Complete discography. Like, I know that's not like a full length or anything, but that's.

[Colin]

It's a release. It counts.

[Todd Jones]

Suicidal Tendencies, first album.

[Bo]

Wow. Is that self titled?

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. Circle Jerks, Group Sex and the Straight Ahead Breakaway ep.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Bo]

This is a man who thinks about this question often.

[Colin]

That was good.

[Todd Jones]

I thought about it today.

[Bo]

Okay.

[Todd Jones]

Because I saw that you guys do that with folks.

[Bo]

I love it. Those are great answers. I love the suicidal pick.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah. That's my favorite. That's like one of my favorite full lengths of all time.

[Colin]

Wow.

[Bo]

Do you like the re. Recorded version too?

[Todd Jones]

I got that when I was like 12, so, yeah. I think it's but I haven't listened to it probably since I was a teenager.

[Bo]

It's still good. Good.

[Todd Jones]

Yeah.

[Bo]

Well, there you have it, folks. Todd on hard lore. It finally happened.

[Todd Jones]

Thank you.

[Colin]

Thank you.

[Bo]

I had the best time. I'm sure Bo had the best time. Appreciate you coming down here all the way. Let's go to get some food soon and I think let's do this again next, Nails.

[Todd Jones]

Happy to do it whenever you guys want to do it.

[Bo]

I love it.

[Colin]

Great idea.

[Bo]

Well, Todd, you're the best. One of the greats. We hope. We. We. I've learned a lot today. I hope you've all learned a lot today and enjoyed this. This beautiful. With a. With a true legend and we hope for the best for nails.

[Todd Jones]

Thanks.

[Bo]

We're excited to see what's next.

[Todd Jones]

I want to thank all the. I want to thank you guys. This incredible platform that you guys built and also anybody watching this. Thank you for watching. If you made it this far and. Or even if you didn't make it this far. Thank you. And stoked that. That I could still, you know, play music and be involved in hardcore and have people be interested in anything that I do. So. So, you know, I don't take that lightly and I don't take it for granted. I'm very appreciative of that. So I know I've been doing hardcore for a while, and I don't know, I'm just very appreciative of it. Thank you. I feel like almost like I'm a Taurus in your world now, so I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Bo]

You molded the world that they inhabit.

[Todd Jones]

So I don't know about that.

[Colin]

Well, you helped.

[Bo]

You don't have to.

[Todd Jones]

I helped. Maybe I'm another brick in the wall.

[Bo]

Oh, my circle, baby. It all comes back to. To brother pink. Todd. Thank you so much, Bo. And there you have it, everybody. We hope you enjoyed this incredible episode and we'll see you next week with d by.