Podcast Summary: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know – Episode with Jelani Cobb

Episode Details:

• Title: Jelani Cobb on the Crisis in Journalism and the Rise of Infotainment
• Host: Hasan Minhaj
• Guest: Jelani Cobb, Dean of the Columbia School of Journalism
• Release Date: January 22, 2025

Introduction: The Current State of Journalism

In this insightful episode, Hasan Minhaj engages in a profound conversation with Jelani Cobb, the esteemed Dean of the Columbia School of Journalism. Together, they delve into the tumultuous landscape of modern journalism, exploring the challenges posed by digital transformation, shifting trust dynamics, and the burgeoning influence of social media platforms like TikTok.

1. The Decline and Evolution of Journalism

Hasan opens the discussion by painting a stark picture of journalism today. He highlights the profession's crisis stemming from mass layoffs, dwindling public trust, and the struggle to adapt to new business models and formats.

Hasan Minhaj [00:00]: "Since America's founding, journalism has been the backbone of democracy, giving voice to the voiceless and opinion columns to middle-aged white guys. But today, it's a profession in crisis."

Jelani Cobb acknowledges these challenges, noting the perpetual learning curve as journalism transitions from traditional mediums like print and radio to the digital age.

Jelani Cobb [02:27]: "As we have kind of moved from, you know, print, to radio to television, to kind of digital and all the other iterations, there's always been a kind of learning curve."

2. TikTok as a Primary News Source

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the alarming trend of Americans, especially those under 30, sourcing their news from TikTok. Hasan expresses concern over the platform's effectiveness in delivering reliable news.

Hasan Minhaj [02:07]: "A third of adults under 30 get their news on TikTok. Does that scare you?"

Jelani responds by emphasizing the transitional phase journalism is undergoing, where traditional reporting methods are being reimagined for new platforms.

Jelani Cobb [02:28]: "There's always been a kind of learning curve, and there's always been a difficulty in translating what we learned in one medium on to the next medium."

During a live demonstration, Hasan challenges the quality of news content on TikTok, highlighting issues like sensationalism and lack of depth.

Hasan Minhaj [04:16]: "Look, I don't feel informed. I feel like I got attacked by birds."

Jelani concurs, pointing out that while some content is well-produced, much of it lacks the substance required for informed public discourse.

Jelani Cobb [04:31]: "I got a lot of really good, kind of well-produced segments on there. But also these are TikTok, you know, dispatches from traditional media organizations for the most part."

3. Erosion of the National Masthead’s Influence

The conversation shifts to the diminishing authority of traditional journalistic institutions and the rise of individual journalist branding. Hasan critiques the shift from institutional credibility to personal clout.

Hasan Minhaj [05:16]: "There is a growing incentive to say, well, who is the writer? What is their substaff? What is their social following."

Jelani explains the underlying factors driving this change, including the unstable career paths in journalism today and the necessity for journalists to build personal brands to secure future opportunities.

Jelani Cobb [06:10]: "Now you are going to go from organization to organization to organization, likely within five years. ... you have to have a name that will translate from place to place."

Hasan further warns about the potential for "bad faith journalism," where the pursuit of personal branding overshadows unbiased reporting.

Hasan Minhaj [07:20]: "What that is doing is it's incentivizing... to build up my blue check. I feel like that's super dangerous for journalism."

4. Objectivity Theater and Headline Analysis

One of the most compelling segments involves analyzing headlines for objectivity. Hasan introduces "Objectivity Theater," illustrating how headlines often obscure the truth through passive language.

Hasan Minhaj [13:13]: "Objectivity Theater. I've brought 100% factual headlines from the New York Times. Okay, now you explain to me what is happening here."

The duo dissects several headlines, revealing how subtle language choices can distort the perceived accountability and gravity of events.

Hasan Minhaj [14:22]: "The New York Times. Civilians killed as US Troops fire on Afghan bus."

Jelani Cobb [14:35]: "That's giving major passive. Right, right."

They conclude that such practices, while seemingly factual, undermine journalistic integrity by not explicitly attributing actions and responsibilities.

5. The Rise of Opinion Journalism and the Hot Take Complex

Hasan addresses the surge in opinion-based journalism, likening it to the sensationalism seen in shows like ESPN's "First Take." He expresses concern over the blending of opinion with traditional news reporting.

Hasan Minhaj [21:33]: "This is my pitch... All opinion journalism should just be in Comic Sans ms, and then regular news is Times New Roman."

Jelani Cobb [22:24]: "I would never publish anything of the caliber of Stephen A. Smith's opinions in a paper."

Jelani elaborates on this trend, attributing it to constrained news budgets that push organizations towards cheaper, faster opinion content over in-depth reporting.

Jelani Cobb [22:24]: "The reason that you see so much opinion now is that news budgets have gotten very constrained."

6. Infotainment vs. Education: The Sesame Street Debate

The dialogue transitions to the impact of infotainment on education, with a focus on Sesame Street's role in early childhood learning. Hasan critiques the show's approach, arguing that it emphasizes entertainment over substantive learning.

Hasan Minhaj [25:09]: "Sesame Street should absolutely get its flowers. If we are to blame Sesame Street for anything, it is for the pretense that it is an ally of the classroom as a television show."

Jelani provides a nuanced perspective, acknowledging the educational value while also recognizing its limitations in replacing traditional teaching methods.

Jelani Cobb [26:56]: "Sesame street only teaches you how to watch Sesame street."

Hasan reinforces the argument by contrasting passive media consumption with active, real-world learning experiences.

Hasan Minhaj [29:30]: "Let junk be junk. And let real learning from Professor Cobb, from this amazing institution. Let real learning be real learning."

Conclusion: Upholding Journalistic Integrity

As the episode wraps up, Jelani commends the depth and quality of the conversation, highlighting its rarity in the current media landscape.

Jelani Cobb [29:54]: "This is one of the most well-informed conversations I've ever had."

Hasan expresses gratitude for the enlightening discussion, underscoring the importance of maintaining journalistic integrity amidst evolving challenges.

Hasan Minhaj [30:23]: "I needed that. Thank you so much, man."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know offers a critical examination of journalism's current predicament, enriched by Jelani Cobb's expert insights. From the pitfalls of social media-driven news to the complexities of maintaining objectivity and the dangers of opinion-driven content, the conversation serves as a clarion call for a return to foundational journalistic principles. It underscores the necessity for integrity, ethical reporting, and the indispensable role of journalism in sustaining a healthy democracy.

Notable Quotes:

• Hasan Minhaj [00:00]: "Journalism is a f mess now."
• Jelani Cobb [02:27]: "There's always been a kind of learning curve... in translating what we learned in one medium on to the next medium."
• Hasan Minhaj [05:16]: "There is a growing incentive to say, well, who is the writer? What is their substaff?"
• Hasan Minhaj [13:13]: "Objectivity Theater. I've brought 100% factual headlines from the New York Times."
• Hasan Minhaj [21:33]: "All opinion journalism should just be in Comic Sans ms, and then regular news is Times New Roman."
• Hasan Minhaj [25:09]: "Sesame Street does not encourage children to love school or anything about school. It encourages them to love television."

Note: Advertisements and non-content sections from the transcript have been omitted to focus solely on the substantive discussion between Hasan Minhaj and Jelani Cobb.