Fine, We'll Talk About Epstein - with Rep. Ro Khanna

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fine, We'll Talk About Epstein

Podcast: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know
Host: Hasan Minhaj (w/ 186k Films)
Guest: Rep. Ro Khanna
Release Date: August 27, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Hasan Minhaj welcomes California Congressman Ro Khanna for a candid, wide-ranging discussion that moves from the latest storm around the Jeffrey Epstein files to the contradictions of Silicon Valley, the state of American politics, bipartisan backchanneling, and the challenge of holding the powerful (including tech titans and government leaders) accountable. With sharp humor and earnest curiosity, Hasan presses Khanna on whether elites are ever really brought to justice, and how—if at all—we can have a government that works for regular people in a tech-dominated age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Silicon Valley Paradox

Timestamps: [01:20]–[08:23]

• Hasan tees up the contradiction: Ro Khanna represents a district home to mega-wealthy tech firms, yet he champions progressive causes like Medicare for All and tuition-free college.
  • “How does it feel to be king of the laptop class?” – Hasan [01:20]
• Khanna acknowledges the contradiction:
  • “I do think there’s a contradiction there, but…we need to have a social safety net… and also democratize the engines of production.” – Ro Khanna [07:31]
• Both agree tech has generated immense value but also worsened inequality and eroded public trust.
• Notable quote:
  • “Even middle managers at these companies…they care about housing. A lot of the folks are teachers, plumbers, electricians, working-class folks.” – Khanna [03:31]

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2. Tech Industry Accountability and Data Rights

Timestamps: [04:49]–[13:45]

• On Big Tech’s power:
  • Khanna argues users should own and profit from their data:
    • “Why don’t we have a data dividend?... They should be compensating us for our data.” – Khanna [05:13]
• Dangers and harms of tech:
  • Both criticize the “wrecking ball” of tech’s ‘move fast and break things’ attitude, especially when harm to children from social media is ignored.
  • “It's shameful that there are only 20 or some of us in the house arguing for the Kids Online Safety Act.” – Ro Khanna [11:10]
  • “I am totally, totally with you that these technologies have harmed kids in America.” – Khanna [11:10]
• Government is outpaced:
  • Hasan and Khanna agree politicians' lack of tech literacy hinders meaningful regulation.
  • "The entire country was like, let's hold Zuckerberg accountable…then they started hearing these members of Congress asking him, 'How does Facebook make [money]?'" – Khanna [13:07]

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3. Bipartisan Bridge-Building (and Texting Steve Bannon)

Timestamps: [17:50]–[36:23]

• On personal connections with political opposites:
  • Khanna confirms texting relationships with Elon Musk (“Musk whisperer”) and Steve Bannon:
    • “He’s followed and unfollowed me four times…” – Khanna (about Musk) [17:53]
    • “We do text [Steve Bannon].” – Khanna [32:26]
• Efforts at unlikely coalitions:
  • Khanna details nearly brokering a Pentagon spending-cut deal across progressives (including Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders) and figures like Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy.
  • “We were ready to go… There was hope.” – Khanna [21:02]
• On working with Bannon:
  • “If you don’t look for common ground in this country, then you can be virtuous… but you’re not going to get anything done.” – Khanna [35:23]
• Hasan jokes about South Asian parental expectations:
  • "My parents were like, don't talk to Nikhil, he gets C pluses, and you're out here texting Steve Bannon." – Hasan [34:03]

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4. Is the Democratic Party Truly Anti-War?

Timestamps: [24:08]–[29:22]

• Khanna traces the party’s anti-war credentials:
  • “Yes. I think that Dr. King's time…Barack Obama…Bernie is, was anti-‘dumb war’… There is a tradition…” – Khanna [24:08]
• Hasan challenges with a list of Democratic-supported wars:
  • “Democrats are good at getting out of wars after they're wildly unpopular…” – Hasan [25:25]
• Rift inside the party:
  • Plays a clip of Senator Shaheen, who calls Khanna “wrong” and equates anti-war with dangerous isolationism.
  • “Certainly not an isolationist… I want America to lead with our culture… But I've been very critical…what our country has done in being complicit with what's going on in Gaza.” – Khanna [27:02]

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5. Epstein Files & the Cult of Elite Impunity

Timestamps: [36:23]–[46:14]

• The core argument:
  • Releasing the Epstein files is about exposing whether the government protects the powerful at the expense of the public.
  • "The reason…a third of the MAGA base is supporting the release of the Epstein files is…whether rich and powerful people in this country get to play by a different set of rules." – Khanna [00:14]/[41:28]/[42:04]
• Why Trump supporters care:
  • “This is a betrayal of his central promise that I’m going to take on the rich and powerful who are shafting you.” – Khanna [39:44]
  • Hasan: “You know that there is nothing that could come out from this file that would change the hardline MAGA supporter. You know this, I know this…” – Hasan [40:47]
• Broader point:
  • It’s not about the titillation or even Trump’s name in the logs (“We have the travel logs…”) but about systemic elite impunity.
• Historical context:
  • “Politicians are like toilet fixtures. The American people just want to know they work.” – Khanna, quoting Nixon [43:09]
  • “What politician loses? It’d be like if Bernie Sanders became president and…just can’t do it, let’s move on…This is a foundational principle for MAGA.” – Khanna [45:12]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “There’s still hope for me.” – Hasan (on getting fired from tech, and Silicon Valley mythmaking) [04:38]
• "Congress doesn't understand it [tech] well enough. The tech companies run circles around Congress." – Khanna [13:07]
• "If you don't look for common ground in this country, you can be virtuous...but you're not going to get anything done." – Khanna [35:23]
• "It's a huge story because it's a betrayal of his central promise...to take on the rich and powerful." – Khanna (on Trump and Epstein) [39:44]
• "There's more photos of Donald Trump with Jeffrey Epstein than there are photos of me with Ronny Chieng." – Hasan [45:47]
• "We don’t need the files released…what we need is for the government to stop protecting the rich and powerful." – Ro Khanna [41:25]/[41:28]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Silicon Valley contradictions: [01:20]–[08:23]
• Tech, regulation & harms: [04:49]–[13:45]
• Government’s tech illiteracy: [12:32]–[13:45]
• Elon Musk, Vivek, texting Bannon: [17:50]–[36:23]
• Democratic Party anti-war debate: [24:08]–[29:22]
• Epstein, elite impunity & Trump's betrayal: [36:23]–[46:14]

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Episode Tone

The conversation is lively, irreverent, and bracingly honest, peppered with humor, personal anecdotes, and a distinct lack of deference—without losing respect or substance. Hasan’s skepticism matches Khanna’s willingness to acknowledge contradictions, making for a disarmingly open political conversation.

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Final Thoughts

This episode cuts through sanitized talking points, forcing an honest look at systemic failures—whether tech’s role in inequality, Congress’s inability to keep up with modern economy, or the stubborn endurance of elite impunity exemplified by the Epstein saga. Khanna is both idealistic in his vision for a broad coalition and pragmatic about what it takes to get there, while Hasan ensures that none of the uncomfortable, messy sides of the story are left unexplored.

If you want a nuanced, entertaining deep-dive on why accountability for the rich and powerful seems elusive—and what might actually be done about it—this episode is worth your time.

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Transcript

[Ro Khanna]

Lemonade.

[Hasan Piker]

We have the travel logs. We have the photos of Bill Clinton getting the weird massages.

[Ro Khanna]

Multiple.

[Hasan Piker]

We know what it is. We don't need the files released.

[Ro Khanna]

But the files released is about a government that's protecting the rich and powerful. So the reason that the polling shows that a third of the MAGA base is supporting the release of the Epstein files is it is a symbol of whether rich and powerful people in this country get to play by a different.

[Hasan Piker]

Set of rules, which is yes. California Democratic Congressman Ro Kunna is known as the Ambassador of Silicon Valley, which means he represents the only place in America where people make 500 grand a year and still feel poor. He describes himself as a progressive capitalist, which sounds like an oxymoron. Like Goldman Sachs socialist or business casual anarchist. So I sat down with the representative to unravel these contradictions and talk about tech oligarchs and his text chains with Elon Musk and Steve Bannon. And yes, we will talk about Jeffrey Epstein, because I know my audience is smart, but you're not above that trashy Epstein gossip. Now join me in the gutter.

[Ro Khanna]

Hurry. Right away. No delay. Stop. Make your daddy glad. You have had such a laugh.

[Hasan Piker]

You are a member of Congress. Just for the audience and for the people that watch the show of the 17th district. What are we talking about? I'm talking about Sunnyvale, Cupertina, Santa Clara, Millipedis, Newark, Fremont. This is the home of Apple, Intel, Nvidia, Tesla. You were the rep of every project manager and LinkedIn lunatic. How does it feel to be king of the laptop class?

[Ro Khanna]

They don't see me as a kid, but I. But look, it's $14 trillion of value.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

You got five companies there that are over a trillion dollars.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Ro Khanna]

You name a few of them. Play. You add to that Broadcom. You add to that Tesla. This is the technology engine of the world. It's like representing Athens, Greece, or Florence, Italy. I mean, it's developing new technology, new wealth, new innovation. Now, there are two things we got to do. We have to make sure that parts of the country that have been totally left out of economic security, economic prosperity, have some of those opportunities. And we've got to make sure that it's done in an ethical, responsible way.

[Hasan Piker]

You know they say, write your congressman.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

What are your constituents asking you? Because the majority of them are part of the build fast and break things movement. So they're simultaneously being like, I can't afford to live where I live.

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

I have to be commuting into Google. But I have to live in a trap house in Richmond. Moving method. And then I can maybe get a thousand square foot place in San Jose. But they are also, you know, are they pitching, hey, let's send garbage to outer space? Like, what. What are the type of requests you're getting from your constituents?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, I think we have to distinguish the constituents from the technology leaders.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, I lost an election twice, once to this guy, Mike Honda.

[Hasan Piker]

Okay.

[Ro Khanna]

And I had come out with all my tech leader endorsements, and he had come out with all the PTA leader endorsements, and he said, I know, I know. I had you beat when you did that. I said, why is that, Mike? He's. Cause there's a lot more PT leaders in the district than they are tech leaders. Oh. And so, you know, up, you're like.

[Hasan Piker]

You'Re like, I got Los Altos on my back. I got Atherton backing me.

[Ro Khanna]

He's like, the.

[Hasan Piker]

Are you talking about.

[Ro Khanna]

So that's.

[Hasan Piker]

These are the nine people that all the employees want to kill.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, what are the people there want to talk about? They, they, they care about housing. Like, a lot of the folks are teachers and plumbers, electricians, working class folks. Even middle managers at these companies. They don't.

[Hasan Piker]

Don't say it with that type of disdain. The way you said middle managers, you have to say with full respect.

[Ro Khanna]

All right, all right. I got to get even. Middle managers.

[Hasan Piker]

No, just say project manager leaders.

[Ro Khanna]

Project manager leaders. All right. Yeah. All right. There you go. There you go. Is your, Is your family members or.

[Hasan Piker]

Of course I do.

[Ro Khanna]

All right. Yeah. I don't want this. I don't want this to cost me my reelection.

[Hasan Piker]

You know, I worked in. I worked in it for some time as I was building my career.

[Ro Khanna]

And so what happened to you?

[Hasan Piker]

I mean, I got fired, but. And it happens. But it was, but that was bad.

[Ro Khanna]

And they started company. Well, I guess you started your comedy career.

[Hasan Piker]

I was doing my comedy career at the same time. I mean, the real story is I was doing my comedy career at the same time, and I wasn't doing my job.

[Ro Khanna]

But in Silicon Valley, there's a whole saying that you've got to get fired to have greatness. That. That's really. Yeah. That the people who become entrepreneurs get fired, and then that fuels them to. To do something themselves. Okay.

[Hasan Piker]

There's still hope for me.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. Not that you haven't done well yourself.

[Hasan Piker]

So to get back on topic, you have been called the, quote, ambassador of Silicon Valley. I have two questions.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

And I Think the general public wants to know this? Number one, why are the elite tech bros so insane? And number two, are you afraid of getting blackmailed by one of the big tech companies? Because between your iPhone, your Nest camera, Microsoft Outlook, they got you cornered.

[Ro Khanna]

Fair enough. So far. So far they haven't. Even though I keep calling for their taxes to go up, I call for their regulations to go up. I was opposed to this moratorium on AI not being regulated. They haven't threatened, but that the reality is that they have too much of our data. They should be compensating us for our data. They should make sure that people own their own data in this world. I mean, why don't we have a data dividend? I mean for all the data that your data they're making money off, have a check that goes out every year for your data dividend. It wouldn't be a huge amount, but it may be 500 bucks. That, that's a lot of money for folks to make expenses. So I think that they need to be disciplined and regulated. But I also believe AI technology has an enormous value. Right. I mean all so much wealth is being generated. And when I go around the country I say, well, why can't we create some of these high paying jobs in places that haven't had technology, in places that aren't even participating in AI, in places that don't have capital. You know that I used to teach at Stanford and my students used to get funded before they had an idea because they happen to know the right vc. They'd be like, okay, we're going to give you money. And then I've gone down to the black south where people have brilliant ideas and really hardworking. And I was like, they're never going to get funded because they don't know the right vc. So how do we get more Americans participating in modern wealth generation?

[Hasan Piker]

Is it true that Bernie Sanders was a huge influence on you and a mentor?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. Yes, it was a big influence. Yeah. I would consider my mentor.

[Hasan Piker]

These are some of the issues that you fought for.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

You co chaired Bernie Sanders 2020 campaign.

[Ro Khanna]

Correct.

[Hasan Piker]

You endorse Medicare for all.

[Ro Khanna]

I'm a big supporter of Medicare for all.

[Hasan Piker]

Tuition free public college.

[Ro Khanna]

Correct.

[Hasan Piker]

Universal child care.

[Ro Khanna]

Child care, $10 a day.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. And you don't take any money from PACs.

[Ro Khanna]

Correct.

[Hasan Piker]

What I find to be really interesting is that you stand for all these positions.

[Ro Khanna]

Correct.

[Hasan Piker]

That are incredibly, I would call them egalitarian. They provide a social safety net to the working class. But then you also represent a group of Constituents that build the machines that further escalate those very same problems that hurt the working class. That's kind of wild, that kind of tug of war.

[Ro Khanna]

I do think there's a contradiction there. But let me say that the person who I think helped resolve it was fdr. And in that, that we need to have a social safety net. We need to have universal health care, Medicare for all child care, a thousand trade schools, free public college. We need to tax these people more, yes, but we also need to have some job creation. We need to have economic growth, we need to have economic production. So even if we have universal health care and childcare and raising wage, how are you going to have new jobs, new economic growth in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, in the black South? And so what I want to do is I want to not only have the social safety, but I want to democratize the engines of production. And to say that more people need to participate in economic production.

[Hasan Piker]

Why does it feel like the tech oligarchs don't feel this way to me, they feel like value extractors and then everybody else. You guys are complainers. We are the value makers. As the head of these companies, we extract like data miners from you, the people. And if you complain, well guess what, you guys are a bunch of laptop losers and you need to work harder and you need to start a company.

[Ro Khanna]

You have that negative tech.

[Hasan Piker]

I think that there are many beneficial things that it does right? But I think the wrecking ball of building fast and breaking things oftentimes builds, builds fast breaks things and by the time they're broken, there is no going back and cleaning up the mess that I see. This is the new lived reality.

[Ro Khanna]

I agree. So look, I don't think they're purely rent extractors, right? There are people who are rent extractors. I would argue that private health insurance is a rent extracting business, that you don't need it. You could have Medicare for All, you can have private doctors, you'd have better health care, you'd have lower costs and that's a cost to society. I would say that tech has both rent extraction and value generation. Look, I think Steve Jobs is a brilliant guy. I think it's a good thing we have iPhones. I think it's a good thing we have search. I think it's a good thing that we have AI and chat GPT. I mean now the problem is that there haven't been regulations on people's data. So there's an extraction of data.

[Hasan Piker]

Correct.

[Ro Khanna]

There has been a manipulation of young kids on social media. So there is not transparency on algorithms. There has been too much of a concentration of power, and so there hasn't been antitrust there. So what I say is, I'm a technology optimist, but for a humanistic technology. And that's what Silicon Valley used to be under Hewlett and Packard. There used to be a humanism to technology. Silicon Valley in the service of the nation and the world. Not the nation and the world in the service of the world.

[Hasan Piker]

And I think we're in agreement here. And maybe what you're helping me articulate is this, is that, hey, you also need to pay your vig. I'll give you an example. So we're having this conversation. We're in midtown Manhattan. If you go to the first floor of where we are, we are in the bustling heart of New York City. You walk around, the entire city is a bunch of people walking around like they're geocaching and playing Pokemon Go. It is a bunch of people staring at their rectangle of sadness. You have kids, right?

[Ro Khanna]

I do.

[Hasan Piker]

You fucking hate the iPhone. And just admit it. You hate what it's done to your young children. You hate it. And yet you will hold that position for AAPL in Your S and P 500.

[Ro Khanna]

So hard.

[Hasan Piker]

But it's the crack cocaine that's destroying your kids. Now, what are we asking for in exchange? That's fine. Would you rather have the iPhone or not have the iPhone? Obviously, we'd rather have the iPhone. But what we are asking for as citizens is you got to pay a vig for the add you gave my kids.

[Ro Khanna]

So, look, I am totally, totally with you that these technologies have harmed kids in America.

[Hasan Piker]

Got it.

[Ro Khanna]

And it's shameful. Shameful that there are only 20 or some. Some of us in the house who are arguing for the Kids Online Safety Act. Let's talk about the harms they're doing to kids. They've gotten young girls addicted to online content that's causing eating disorders that is causing suicidal thoughts. Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Anxiety. All sorts of things.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. They've gotten young boys addicted often to video games where they're playing video games for hours. They are manipulating and causing mental health issues. And most other countries have a standard of harm saying, you can't send this crap to young kids. There's gotta be regulations. I have been a leading advocate saying, let's regulate social media to protect kids. Let's have the Kids Online Safety act passed. If there's one thing people get out of this is let's make sure that we get The Kids Online Safety Act. There's a great book, I don't know if you've read it, the Anxious Generation.

[Hasan Piker]

Of course, Jonathan Haidt's book.

[Ro Khanna]

Jonathan Haidt. And it talks about this. It talks about, you don't want just social media being empty entertainment that has no value and actually has negative value. There. There's value to search and to social media, but it's not the. Not for young kids. Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

And I think what people are seeking, and I think young voters are seeking is a group of individuals in the government class, elected officials that aren't geriatric and do not move at an analog speed in order to hold these companies accountable.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, that's. That, I think, is the biggest point. It's going to take someone who understands technology to be able to regulate technology. When Zuckerberg came before Congress, the entire country was like, let's hold Zuckerberg accountable. And then they started hearing these members of Congress asking him, how does Facebook make.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, Literally did not understand how advertising works.

[Ro Khanna]

And I said that the United States Congress was the only body that could make Mark Zuckerberg look sympathetic. How do you sustain a business model in which users don't pay for your service? Senator, we run ads. I see people are like, those are the people who are making the laws. And the reality is the tech companies run circles around Congress because Congress doesn't understand it well enough. They don't have the technology expertise. We've had presidents even in my party who don't get this stuff. And what we need is someone who really gets technology. But as humanistic values is going to bring in the technologists to be able to regulate.

[Hasan Piker]

Congressman, I'm in complete agreement with you here. Every time I see Chuck Schu Schumer and the glasses are just on the very edge of his nose as he's looking at his matinee tickets for a Broadway show, I go, there's no way this guy's gonna hold anyone accountable.

[Ro Khanna]

Brags. Chuck Schumer still brags about having a flip phone. It would be like if I was riding to work in a horse and buggy and then being like, ha, ha ha, look at me, I still have a horse and buggy. It's like he revels in being anti technology, which is fine. Chuck Schumer can do what he wants. But we're in the 21st century. We've got an economy where wealth is going to be built in the 21st century. And that, to me, is the problem with modern politics. Look at Donald Trump. You know, my biggest criticism of Donald Trump is that he's a 1980s guy with 19th century policy. Like if I thought that the way to make America powerful and wealthy was to conquer more land, to go and conquer Panama or Canada, you know, fine, maybe you'd understand it. I mean, my grandfather spent four years in jail with Gandhi, opposed to colonialism and moral problems. But you'd at least understand the strategy. Does anyone Republican, Democrat think that the way you build wealth and power is to conquer land and to have tariffs? No. The way you build wealth and power is to build new companies, build technology, applied technology. You know how I know this? Because we're building more wealth in my district than has ever been built in the history of the world. And they're not conquering things.

[Hasan Piker]

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[Ro Khanna]

I do. He doesn't reply anymore. He hasn't.

[Hasan Piker]

He doesn't reply anymore.

[Ro Khanna]

You know, it's kind of like an ex. You know, he's followed and unfollowed me four times. You know, I know we were talking about someone who may get married, may not get married before we got on here. You know, it's like one of those relationships where he blurred my first book and he said, ro Khanna really understands manufacturing.

[Hasan Piker]

You know the book Progressive Capitalism, the.

[Ro Khanna]

First one I wrote on Entrepreneurial nation. It's okay. Not many people read it, but he was a fan. He was a fan. He blurbed is the top blurb kind of gets modern manufacturing. And we knew each other. Obama helped Tesla get started. He wouldn't have had Tesla without Obama's loan. And I've been in touch with, I've known him for 15 years. So when he became head of Doge, I was, I got criticized for my own party because I said, okay, Elon Musk, you know how to cut defense spending? He said, I'm willing to cut defense spending. I said, that's what you did with Space X. You broke the Boeing and Lockheed monopoly. You made it more efficient to launch into space, to put satellites because you made it something that we could launch a satellite more than.

[Hasan Piker]

Well, this is really great. I want to double click on this because, I mean, what you're describing right now, Congressman Khan, is really, you are in your push a T and Kanye west moment where you guys were making records together. And now there is a violation of trust. I mean, when he first took over Doge, this is what, what you posted. I'm ready to Work with Doge to slash waste. I have a track record of doing so. Let me ask you this question, Congressman Khan. Why do you take Elon at his word? Why did you do that?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, because of his track record with SpaceX. Right. He worked with Ash Carter and President Obama to break the Boeing and Lockheed monopoly. Boeing and Lockheed used to basically be the only people who had put satellites into space. And they were like, okay, we can't reuse a spacecra once it goes into space or a rocket, you can only use it once. And Elon was like, no, you can actually reuse it. And he dramatically lowered cost. He beat the monopoly of the defense contractors and he slashed costs. So I said, this guy understands that there's huge bloated waste in the Pentagon. That's 56% of our defense budget. I'm the guy who's been voting against the defense budget every year saying we shouldn't get to a trillion dollars. I held transdigm accountable because transdigm was ripping off the American people at the time with monopoly prices. And so I said, maybe Elon is the guy who's finally going to take on the Pentagon waste. And I was ready to introduce him with a meeting to Elizabeth Warren and Bernie. I was going to convene this meeting with 20.

[Hasan Piker]

You were going to broker the whole thing?

[Ro Khanna]

I was going to broker the whole thing. We were, that was the, the plan. I talked to Vivek Ramaswamy. You know, every Indian American in politics knows each other side. I knew Vivek. And Vivek called me and he said, can you get some of these progressive Democrats on to just hear us out? I said, I want to cut defense. He said, it's all on the table. So I was ready to broker that meeting.

[Hasan Piker]

Wait, really?

[Ro Khanna]

Yes.

[Hasan Piker]

No, no. You realize how crazy this is, right? No, no, no. But if you watch CNN or Fox News or msnbc, it is really seen as this. The chasm between all parties is pretty wide. Yeah, but via imessage and just picking up the phone, they're, they're is potential for eight or nine people to come together.

[Ro Khanna]

There. There was hope. In fact, I think this is the first time I've actually talked about this at any length. And so we were ready to go. Then Vivek is pushed out. I don't know why, why don't you.

[Hasan Piker]

Talk about this live when it's happening? I mean, I mean this is not even on the question. Yeah, why don't you say this lie?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, because I thought it could kill the meeting if I'd gone out and I'd said that ahead of time. Would it have. I would have gotten pushback from the party and then people would have said, oh well, we don't want to show up.

[Hasan Piker]

But it's a net positive if you really think about it. It's like, hey, partisan divide isn't as big as you think it is. You can reach across the aisle that that neighbor next door that voted differently than you. You actually can put together small coalitions based on particular issues and perhaps have peace.

[Ro Khanna]

That's been my approach. Right. That's why Massey and I are doing this Epstein resolution. We've done anti war things, but I still get criticized for and saying that, oh, I was open at any time to, to working. Well, look at this.

[Hasan Piker]

This is one of the top comments underneath this post. This is from Carl Bode. DOGE is a fake government agency designed to provide flimsy innovative efficiency cover to corrupt robber barons as they dismantle federal corporate oversight and sell the country for scrap off the back loading dock. Any politicians or journalists helping the performance should be laughed at. Next slide, it continues. It's also going to be leveraged to harass government employees, especially if they're Democrats and female or a minority. You should be embarrassed for being such a rube. Now, Congressman, who do you think had a more accurate view of Doge? You or this random Carl?

[Ro Khanna]

The random Carl ended up being more right. I mean, not 100% right, but more right. I mean, Doge did a tremendous amount of damage. And the reality is they broke agencies, they fired veterans without cause. They, they got rid of US Aid which gives. Which is going to cost the lives of people in Africa. They dismantled the Federal Drug Administration, the National Institute of Health, and they didn't save much money. So he's absolutely right that it turned out not to be a productive effort. That's why I voted to subpoena him. That's why I turned against what he was doing very vocally. But I wanted to give it a chance because the concept of Doge, of actually going after real waste is a good one. And the places we should be going after it are in the extraordinary Pentagon spending with defense contractors, in Medicare Advantage, which are private insurance companies that tell the government that people are sicker than they actually are and are ripping us off billions of dollars. The, the private big pharma companies ripping us off billions of dollars because they're overcharging Americans for drugs compared to what they charge people in overseas countries. That's what I wanted to go after it, it didn't turn out to be that way. And I acknowledge that you've said you.

[Hasan Piker]

Want to make the Democratic Party anti war and you want them to be the anti war party again. But my question to you is, has the Democratic Party ever truly been anti war?

[Ro Khanna]

Yes. I think that Dr. King's time, when you had 1968 clean for gene getting out of the Vietnam war, Robert Kennedy, Dr. King, who I guess was an official Democrat but was more sympathetic to the Democratic Party, the anti Vietnam movement then I think with Barack Obama. Barack Obama basically became president because everyone else, I mean, he was a very eloquent guy who had enormous talent, but everyone else, Hillary Clinton and John Kerry and Dick Gephardt and John Edwards, that whole cast of characters had all voted for the Iraq war. And Obama comes then says, I'm against dumb wars. And lo and behold, this country makes a young African American senator, first term senator, president in large part I think, because of that principled stand. So, and Bernie is, it was, was anti dumb war. So there is a tradition in the Democratic Party, I mean, I don't know.

[Hasan Piker]

Getting out of wars, sure, but what about getting in jfk, lbj obviously led us deeper into the Vietnam War. Democrats in the House supported the invasion of Panama in 1989, Afghanistan, Iraq, the bombing of Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, Palestine. I mean, really what it is, is I feel like Democrats are good at getting out of wars after they're wildly unpopular.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, look, I, I have been a pretty strong anti war voice in the Congress. I led the effort to stop the Yemen war with Bernie to pass the War Powers Resolution on that. I led the effort to prevent the war in Iran with Thomas Massie to say, look, let's not get into a regime change war in Iran. And I do think even though Trump struck Iran, which I opposed, because I don't think it's actually going to deny them nuclear weapons, he didn't engage in a regime change war because of the pressure Massey and I and Congress brought. But if you're asking me can the Democratic Party be better on human rights and can the Democratic Party be better in not getting into wars of choice, Absolutely.

[Hasan Piker]

Well, sometimes some of your Democratic colleagues, they kind of throw you under the bus. Let's take a look at this clip.

[Ro Khanna]

I interviewed Congressman Ro Khanna recently who's been advocating for the Democratic Party to be the anti war party. He said that the party has become too hawkish. Is this an opportunity for Democrats? Might you be missing that opportunity if you don't sort of look at that messaging as a path for the party. No. And I think Ro Khanna is wrong. Okay? I don't want to be involved in any wars. Isolationist movement. We've been down that road. We saw what happened at the start of World War II. And that was not a place where I think we want to be again as American Americans.

[Hasan Piker]

You heard that from Senator Shaheen. If we listen to you, Mr. Khanna, we're going to end up speaking German. So how do you feel about that? Her Khanna?

[Ro Khanna]

Certainly not an isolationist. I don't think they can say about an Indian American guy who represents Silicon Valley that I want to disconnect from the world. I want America to lead with our ideas. I want America to lead with our culture. I want America to lead with our move music, music and movies and art and our values and our principles. And I certainly believe where it is necessary, America needs to have force. So I've supported Ukraine because I don't think Putin should just march in and take over Ukraine. I've supported a strong defense in the Pacific because I don't think we should have Xi Jinping go in and take Taiwan. So why am I against these wars in the Middle East? And what, what is it that's upset the party? I'm against the war in Iran. I don't think that we should be spending billions of dollars sending more troops into the Middle east, having a war in Iran when we could have had an agreement that Obama had. And I am embarrassed, shamed by what our country has done in being complicit with what's going on in Gaza. There is a mass starvation right now in Gaza. There are 100,000, actually a million children, 900,000 children who face starvation according to the World Health Organization. You have the Gaza Humanitarian foundation there, which is restricting aid where a thousand Palestinians have been shot trying to get aid. Israel and Netanyahu are pushing Palestinians all into one corner of, of the, of, of Gaza. 50,000 Gazans, women and children have been killed, bombed, and we have given a blank check to Netanyahu. We are not insisting on unconditional aid. We are not insisting that he stop the bombing of women and children. And I voted against the offensive aid to Netanyahu. So I've been very critical of Biden, I was critical of Harris, and I've been critical of our own party in what I view as a humanitarian disaster. And I was supportive initially, after the horrific October 7th attack, of Israel's right to self defense. And I was supportive of them doing damage to Hamas. But that was for a few months. They did that damage. It's been two years, and this war is killing innocents. And I'm going to continue to speak out about that.

[Hasan Piker]

One of the things that you have done is you have also had this unique ability to connect with people within your party, sometimes ruffle feathers with people within your party. But then also, what we were talking about, your connection with Vivek Ramaswamy or Elon Musk is extend an olive branch to unlikely characters. You recently had a profile in Vanity Fair in. Steve Bannon gave a secondary interview. Now, for the audience that's watching this.

[Ro Khanna]

When you guys have done your homework.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, man.

[Ro Khanna]

You see thing?

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. People don't know this, but he came in with the rolly bag off a flight. I'm gonna respect your time.

[Ro Khanna]

All right? Appreciate it.

[Hasan Piker]

Just for the audience to know when you do a profile or when someone does a profile on you in one of these big publications, they'll do this thing called a secondary, where they will call other people and go, hey, I'm Journalist X. I'm doing a profile on Congressman Ro Khanna. Will you give a secondary interview on the record, which is different than anonymous. Anonymous is like, this is off.

[Ro Khanna]

You know the lingo. Oh, hey, you've had your profile. You've had plenty of profiles.

[Hasan Piker]

I've had my bad ones ones, too. Don't Google it.

[Ro Khanna]

Your press is pretty good. I would. I'd be fine with your press, but.

[Hasan Piker]

For someone to say, put it in the blockchain, put it on the record, and use my name means they feel pretty strongly about you. So Steve Bannon basically calls this reporter, and they have this conversation. The reporter says, can I say this on the record? And this is what Steve Bannon had to say about you.

[Ro Khanna]

Look at the casual crypto. Drop blockchain.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, put it in the blockchain. Bannon aims to recruit both Kana and Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman to join the MAGA ranks. They're my top two targets, he declares. You understand if we flip Fetterman and Ro Khanna, Democrats got nothing. They have no intellectual fire. My top target in 16 was Tulsi Gabbard. Roe needs a year in the wilderness to see how hard it is to change the Democratic apparatus. Look at that. Steve Bannon thinks you're out in the woods, and eventually he's going to get you to sign and trade, go through the portal and switch it up to the Republican Party. Now, look, you have Indian parents. They're probably super proud of you. If you Joined the Repubs.

[Ro Khanna]

My parents are Democrats. No way they're Democrats. Your parents aren't Democrats?

[Hasan Piker]

My parents are Democrats, Yeah.

[Ro Khanna]

I mean, look, they came here John F. Kennedy time, 1960s. They understand that the immigration Reform act that allowed Indians to come before that Indians basically weren't allowed to come to this country, was a product of the civil rights movement and Democrats. But look on the Steve Bannon quote, I think there's a far bigger likelihood that he and other maga are going to come over to our side. I mean, let's look at the two things that have happened since that profile. His president, Donald Trump started to get us into a war in the Middle East. He was very upset with that. Bannon. He didn't want a war in Iran. He didn't want them to strike Iran. And it was the Democrats with Massie who pushed back against that.

[Hasan Piker]

You guys text you and Steve Bannon?

[Ro Khanna]

We do text.

[Hasan Piker]

What?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. You don't text him?

[Hasan Piker]

No, I don't text Steve Bannon.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. I'm sure I'm going to get criticized for texting Steve Bannon. But you know, I thought I talk to folks.

[Hasan Piker]

This episode of Hasan Midhaj Doesn't Know is brought to you by booking.com booking. Yeah. No matter how large, small or demanding your family is, booking.com will help you find the perfect place to stay. You'll have your pick of millions of vacation rentals and hotels across the United States of America. I am on record saying my parents are welcome to live with me eventually, but unfortunately they thought that meant joining us on vacations now. So my family is looking for options with an in law suite for mom and dad. Also on our list, a backyard. My kids love the space to play, but mostly we can't trust them with ice cream inside. Finally, it needs to be pet friendly. My daughter's bunny, Maximo, wants to see the world and find himself. Yeah, I know it's a lot, but I'll compromise on the kitchen. Let's be real, your boy can barely operate a microwave. And if our particular family can find our perfect stay on booking.com anyone can find exactly what you're booking for. Booking.com booking.

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Book today on the site or in the app. This is really fascinating, Congressman Khanna, because we're both just Indian boys that grew up in very, you know, controlling households. Well, I'm projecting now. But what's interesting is what? Growing up there was another boy named Nikhil and he got C pluses. And my parents were like, don't talk to Nikhil. He gets C pluses, and you're out here texting Steve Bannon.

[Ro Khanna]

So it's a very interesting. I don't think Bannon got C pluses.

[Hasan Piker]

I think, no, no, he got good grades. But what I'm saying is that I would say, growing up as a young Rokhanev, they knew that Steve was going to go to prison and get pardoned by the. By the president. Your parents probably wouldn't let you guys kick it, is what I'm trying to say.

[Ro Khanna]

My parents instilled in me that I need to be ethical. They have a much higher ethical bar. I mean, I'm sure I've disappointed them, but that was what they wanted, that I'd be a good person, but they would want me to have my values. But they understand that you have to work in the world to build consensus. And if I can talk to Steve Bannon to stop a war in the Middle East, I'm going to talk to Steve Bannon, if I can.

[Hasan Piker]

Would you be interested in bringing Bannon into the Democratic Party?

[Ro Khanna]

Bannon is not going to come to the Democratic Party.

[Hasan Piker]

Why wouldn't he?

[Ro Khanna]

I mean, he. Does he support Medicare for All? I don't know. Does he support. He may support higher taxes on the wealthy, so that would be an issue we can work together on. Would he support $10 a day childcare? Would he support federal investment to rebuild manufacturing? I mean, there would be places of disagreement, but what I would do with Bannon is I would look at places where we can move the country forward and say, okay, if you're for increasing taxes on the billionaires, let's do it. Let's figure out a common, common way to do it. If you're for helping rebuild manufacturing, can we fund steel manufacturing? Advanced steel manufacturing? Let's do it. If you don't look for common ground in this country, then you can be virtuous, you can claim a moral purity, but you're not going to get anything done. And I want to not just talk about progressive values, but actually build a coalition to get it done. And by the way, Bernie is an exception because Bernie literally, you know, is probably never solicited money and is genuinely idealistic. Most politicians go to fundraisers. Ask people for votes, ask people for, For. For support. It's not like you're Mahatma Gandhi when you're in American politics. So I think there shouldn't be a holier than thou thing, right? Like, I don't take pack and lobbyist money. I've never taken it. I'm one of ten members. Who doesn't? And then when people say, oh, you're so moral, I say, I represent the wealthiest district in the world. Like, I got a lot of people who can contribute individually. So I don't have, like, I am morally superior than you. I have a view of, here's where we need to go for as a country, and how do we get there pragmatically. And let me focus on that.

[Hasan Piker]

Let's get to why we're really here. The Epstein files. Obviously, the Democrats are going hard. The Internet comment section lighting up. This could be the biggest story of the year. Many people believe Donald Trump is covering it up. Get into it. Your thoughts? What's going on?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, it's a pretty straightforward story. You had Jeffrey Epstein, who engaged in these parties where there was sex trafficking with young girls, hundreds of young girls, about 50 of them, according to their lawyer, who were under 18 and then many in their 20s, who were exploited, assaulted, manipulated, abandoned. And you had basically hundreds of these powerful rich men, largely in the 90s and early 2000s, who thought the rules didn't apply to them, that they could get away with having sex, abusing young girls. And they basically got away with it. And so now people want to know, who were these people? Why did they get away with it? And to have a release of all these files. And Trump campaigned on that. That's why he was, in part, successful, because Epstein was a symbol for a political system that wasn't working, where the rich and powerful had impunity, where we didn't have accountability for elites, where ordinary people felt they didn't have a fair shake. And Trump said, I'm going to destroy it. I'm not perfect. I may have engaged in shady things, but I'm going to expose this. I'm going to tear it down so we can rebuild. And he got there and he's not releasing it. And, you know, I don't know why it is, because if his name's in the Epstein file, as long as it's not some bombshell that there's some evidence that he actually.

[Hasan Piker]

But Pam Bondi just recently told President Trump that his name is in the files.

[Ro Khanna]

That is true. And so the question is, in what context is it that he played golf with Epstein and they had went to these parties, Is it that he had relationships or not with these women? But let's say there's not a smoking gun of something underage. I mean, maybe that's what it is. I don't know.

[Hasan Piker]

What do you think?

[Ro Khanna]

Who knows? I mean, I don't know. I'm not going to speculate about a person's behavior with salaciousness. I mean, that's why we need to release the files. But what I'll tell you this is unless there's some terrible bombshell in there, him releasing the files is in his interest. Because I don't think anyone thinks that Donald Trump is a saint. And I think what they're really upset about is not that, oh, he wrote some letter to Jeffrey Epstein on his 50th birthday, may have that according to the Wall Street Journal. But what they're upset about is that he's not exposing the rich and corrupt people that he said he would expose. That was why they elected him. You know, I've said in church services and heard pastors say Donald Trump is not perfect. He's not the type of person that the Christian God would, would want to lead a family. But this is not a perfect world. And God has brought Donald Trump here as an imperfect man to deal with the evils of an imperfect world. And that's why we need Donald Trump as an imperfect vessel. Right. So no one's voted for Donald Trump. Few people thinking the guy was a moral, virtuous paragon. They voted for him because he was going to expose the evil and get and destroy a corrupt system. And that's what he's not delivering on. And that's why we've had so much mega support.

[Hasan Piker]

But this is a big story, right?

[Ro Khanna]

It's a huge story because it's a betrayal of his central promise that I'm going to take on the rich and powerful who are shafting you.

[Hasan Piker]

This is big. Do you think if there was, you know, maybe direct evidence, maybe an audio recording of Donald Trump saying on the record that he enjoys sexually assaulting women and it's game over for him.

[Ro Khanna]

Here's the difference. I think that, you know, you're talking about that tape from the NBC in 2016. I, I don't think there's going to.

[Hasan Piker]

Be the second, the second smoking gun.

[Ro Khanna]

I, I think Dunzo, I think if there was some evidence that he, strong evidence he did stuff with underage girls, that's a red line. But let's say there was not that smoking gun. I think the bigger issue is why is he protecting and covering up for rich donors, men who engaged in sex trafficking and financial fraud? That's the problem.

[Hasan Piker]

You are so much smarter than this. You know that there is nothing that could come out from this file that would change the hardline MAGA supporter. You know, this I know this. In our editor, Tyler, you know this. You come on the pod, we talk about the Epstein files. This could just be called Congressman Khanna and Hassan talk about the Epstein files, the numbers are going to go up. It has nothing to do with national security. This is about the titillation. The page6.com, thedailymail.co.uk, the Island. We have the travel logs. We have the photos of Bill Clinton getting the weird massages.

[Ro Khanna]

Multiple.

[Hasan Piker]

We know what it is. We don't need the files released.

[Ro Khanna]

But the files released is about a government that's protecting the rich and powerful. So this is not about Donald Trump. That's why the one place where he had MAGA support was when that Wall Street Journal article came out. Cuz then people thought, oh, that you're making this about an effort to embarrass Donald Trump. The reason we have MAGA support, Margaret Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Tim Burchett, Nancy Mace, so many Republicans on my bill. The reason that the polling shows that a third of the MAGA base is supporting the release of the Epstein files is it is a symbol of whether rich and powerful people in this country get to play by a different set.

[Hasan Piker]

Of rules, which is yes, and we know this well.

[Ro Khanna]

But, but Trump said, I'm going to stop that. He basically went on stage, he said, look, let me tell you how this game works. I give people money, I give all these people money, and then they do what I tell them. I participate in the game. I know how to play the game. I'm the guy who can tear the game down.

[Hasan Piker]

You love historical context, right?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

So let's just. Because everyone watching this on their cell phone, you know, has the memory of an earthworm. Do you remember? Now, this will feel like 24 years ago, but it was a couple years ago, which was the Russia tape controversy. The President did or did not urinate on a sex worker. That wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back. Years ago, when I was a young child, there was. Mr. Clinton had an affair in the Oval Office with a dress. And then there was months and months of jokes of how much semen was or wasn't on the dress.

[Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

This is what it is. This is gutter gossip. And you know, you're better than this. I want to say the American public is better than this, but we're not.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, Richard Nixon once said that politicians are like toilet fixtures. The American people just want to know they work. They don't have to look beautiful. And I agree in general that a politician's personal life rarely takes them down. Now, I believe character matters. And I didn't vote for Donald Trump because what he did from his character was not something that I could vote for. But by and large, if this was just personal scandals about Donald Trump, if there were embarrassing letters that were coming out that he wrote to Jeffrey Epstein, or if there was salacious allegations of women involved that he was involved with, I don't think this would have resonance. That's not the issue. The issue is why is he betraying his promise to expose rich and powerful people? Is he part of that whole system that has been rigged against working class folks who saw jobs go offshore, who saw their wages decline, who may not have health care, whose kids may not have good paying jobs, who feel like they built America, they fought in the wars, they don't have a shot and all the wealth is piling up in Roe's district. And Donald Trump comes along and he says, this is not working. I'm not going to be for these rich and powerful, this cabal, this group in Washington. I'm going to expose them and I'm one of them. So I know how to do it. So his problem is not that he may be in the Epstein file. His problem is he's not exposing the system. They voted for him to destroy things, not to build things. They, you talk to MAGA folks that they just say, let him just destroy it so that we can have a rebirth and rebuild. Now, I don't agree with that. There's a lot we need to preserve about government as well that we've done right, like university funding and cancer research. But he's not doing what he promised. And that's the biggest thing. What politician loses. It'd be like if Bernie Sanders became president and he said, well, you know what? Then Medicare for all thing, it was a nice idea. But you know what? There's, we talked to too many people in Congress, just can't do it, let's move on. I mean, you don't think they'd be.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, you'd be like, this is what, this is one of your foundational principles and you're being hypocritical about it.

[Ro Khanna]

This is a foundational principle for maga. This is why it matters. It's not about Trump being in the files. It really is not. That's why the Wall Street Journal article actually hurt Massey in my case, to get MAGA supporters because they made it, it's making it about Trump. What this needs to be is about exposing rich and powerful people who had impunity. And if I were Trump, not that he's going to listen to this podcast or take my advice, I would release the files. I would just get it all out there. I was like, what could be so embarrassing there that you haven't survived for 10 years that is going to make it?

[Hasan Piker]

There's nothing that's embarrassing. There's six photos of him partying with Jeffrey Epstein. There's more photos of Donald Trump with Jeffrey Epstein than there are photos of me with Ronny Chang. Now, I'm not saying either me or Ronny Cheng are pedophiles. We are not pedophiles. But what I'm saying is, and by the way, we're about to go on tour together. Go to hustonhates, ronnie.com or ronniehateshussin.com brought to you by Live Nation and Ticketmaster.

[Ro Khanna]

That's pretty good. I got to learn that as a politician, how to put that in, how to put in my own plug for my own platform.

[Hasan Piker]

Congressman Khanna, this is a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining us on the show.

[Ro Khanna]

Thank you.

[Hasan Piker]

Love to have you back, man.

[Ro Khanna]

I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Hasan Piker]

Congressman Ronna, ladies and gentlemen, we hit it all.

[Ro Khanna]

That was fun.

[Hasan Piker]

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