Podcast Summary: "How ICE Uses Pain as Propaganda – with MSNOW’s Jacob Soboroff"

Podcast: Hasan Minhaj Doesn’t Know
Host: Hasan Minhaj
Guest: Jacob Soboroff (Senior Correspondent, MSNOW)
Release Date: January 14, 2026
Episode Focus: Examining ICE’s use of cruelty and visibility as tools of propaganda, the bipartisan history of harsh US immigration policy, and what natural disasters reveal about power, government, and community, with an eye for both policy and lived human experience.

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the media’s role in immigration enforcement, how deliberate cruelty is weaponized for political propaganda, and why showing suffering is sometimes the point. Through candid conversation, Hasan Minhaj and Jacob Soboroff explore the dark history and current tactics of ICE under Trump and Biden, community resistance to federal overreach, and the link between policy—immigration or disaster response—and the human beings on the ground.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ICE, Propaganda, and Public Outrage

• Visibility as a Weapon:

  • Minhaj questions whether viral videos of ICE raids actually serve the aims of hardliners—by stoking their base or intimidating immigrants ([02:02], [19:50]), e.g.:

    "Are progressives... doing the bidding of what the MAGA base actually wants? ...Someone seeing this on TikTok, and they're like, good, I think this is what we want."
    – Hasan Minhaj [02:02], [19:50]

• Policy by Publicity:

  • Soboroff details how the Trump administration actively invited journalists into detention centers, intending the spectacle to serve as deterrence:

    "They wanted our description because... we were tools. ...They used us reporters in order to further their message of 'we’re going to harm people and this is what it's going to look like.'"
    – Jacob Soboroff [03:43], [20:10]

• Resistance and Backlash:

  • He points to historical evidence that mass outrage—fueled by such images—forced the Trump administration to retreat from family separation in 2018, though cruel policies persist under new names ([07:36], [09:17]).

    "Family separation was a uniquely cruel policy ... but ... it was the one time Trump stopped a policy of that nature ... because ... he didn't like the sight and the feeling of the families being separated."
    – Jacob Soboroff [07:36]

2. Cruelty as Policy (Across Administrations)

• Continuity Beyond Partisanship:

  • Soboroff explains that cruel, deterrence-based immigration policies are bipartisan, with roots in Clinton's “prevention through deterrence,” record deportations under Obama, and harsh Trump and Biden practices ([15:22]):

    "Harm to immigrants has been the point and that is in Democratic and Republican administrations."
    – Jacob Soboroff [15:22]

  • Even Ronald Reagan’s amnesty is cited as a radical departure—contrasting the decades-long norm.

• New Era of Cruelty:

  • Child separation and current mass deportations are described as intentionally punitive "family separation by another name," harming young people and families within US borders, not just at the boundary ([09:17]):

    "Mass deportation is family separation just by another name... it's playing out every day all over the country."
    – Jacob Soboroff [09:17]

3. Media, Perception, and Mobilization

• Role of Citizen Journalism:

  • Viral videos documenting ICE detentions provoke both fear and resistance. While the administration intends to showcase power ("cruelty is the point"), these images also enable organizing and know-your-rights efforts ([21:39]):

    "But I do think that the videos on the street are what’s mobilizing people to stand up and push back."
    – Jacob Soboroff [20:10]

• Community Organizing:

  • Stories from Chicago and Charlotte highlight effective grassroots tactics (distributing whistles, education, large community meetings) in deterring ICE and defending immigrant neighbors ([22:18]):

    "It works. ...through the blowing of whistles... they sort of backed off and this person went free."
    – Jacob Soboroff [22:18]

4. Immigration: Narratives, Law, and Humanity

• No ‘Line’ to Get In:

  • The misleading idea that immigrants can simply "wait their turn" is critiqued—the system is broken, and asylum is a legal right ([23:50]):

    "There is no line... asylum is a legal right."
    – Jacob Soboroff [23:50]

• Personal Experience & Reporting:

  • Both host and guest reflect on their empathy as children of immigrants and the importance of telling individual stories, not just reporting stats ([26:11]):

    "The only tool to understand is empathy and to try to connect... to be able to be with somebody down on the border as they’re trying to get into this country because they are desperate... is a particular privilege."
    – Jacob Soboroff [25:13]

5. Disaster Reporting & Parallels to Immigration

• Firestorm (Soboroff’s New Book):

  • Transitioning to climate disaster, Soboroff likens America’s new age of catastrophic fires to what’s revealed in immigration reporting: who the systems serve or fail ([37:47], [38:42]).

    "What I experienced was not just watching my hometown burn down... it was the fire of the future. ...maybe most importantly, misinformation and disinformation..."
    – Jacob Soboroff [38:42]

• Political Games & Misinformation:

  • Trump is portrayed as using fire disasters for political point-scoring, with no regard for policy effectiveness. Fake solutions (e.g., releasing irrelevant water reserves), targeting city leaders, and misinformation (especially from Elon Musk) all complicate real recovery ([50:14], [54:20]).

6. Behind the Scenes: Hypocrisy & Shared Humanity

• Stephen Miller’s Family & the Fires:
  • In a striking anecdote, Soboroff recounts being asked by Miller’s wife, Katie (former DHS press aide), to check on their family's house during the fires—even as Miller spearheaded policies targeting immigrants, including those working to rebuild affected neighborhoods ([57:41]):

    "I couldn't believe it... in a way, maybe this is going to be that olive branch ... but... within hours, both Donald Trump and Elon Musk were tweeting misinformation ... It did the opposite of have a thong effect."
    – Jacob Soboroff [57:41]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Media as Tool:

  "They used us reporters in order to further their message of 'we're going to harm people and this is what it's going to look like.'"
  – Soboroff [03:43]

• On Policy Continuity:

  "Democratic and Republican presidents have used deterrence-based, punitive-based, arguably cruel policies to scare people from coming to this country because migrants were looked at as numbers... not as fellow human beings."
  – Soboroff [15:22]

• On Community Action:

  "It works... blowing the whistles, them detaining a particular individual. And they sort of backed off and this person went free."
  – Soboroff [22:18]

• On Selective Humanity in Immigration:

  "What I am seeing in both the rhetoric, but the ultimate results is, oh, immigration is for a particular type of person with a particular type of melanin. Their humanity... is valued in a way that they are not valued for other people."
  – Minhaj [34:21]

Important Timestamps

• [02:02] – Minhaj introduces the provocative question: Are viral videos of ICE doing the work of MAGA hardliners?
• [03:43], [20:10] – Soboroff describes how the administration strategically used media and outrage as tools of intimidation and deterrence.
• [07:36] – Soboroff on family separation policy history and the impact of mass protest.
• [15:22] – Soboroff details bipartisan cruelty in US immigration policy.
• [22:18] – Real-life anecdotes of whistle-based community resistance to ICE in Charlotte.
• [37:47] – Soboroff introduces his new book 'Firestorm,' drawing parallels between disaster and immigration coverage.
• [54:41] – Soboroff explains the outsized role of misinformation during the LA fires.
• [57:41] – The Stephen Miller family fire anecdote: a study in hypocrisy and unbridgeable political division.

Tone and Language

The conversation is both dark and lively—Hasan’s irreverent, questioning style counterbalancing the sober, witnessed reality Soboroff brings. There’s warmth, gallows humor, righteous anger, and calls for empathy threading through each anecdote and argument.

Conclusion

Listeners leave with a sharper understanding of how documenting government cruelty isn’t always subversive—and sometimes is deliberately encouraged. Soboroff’s insight and Minhaj’s probing bring home the unsettling continuity of US immigration cruelty across parties, while holding out hope: organized communities and “citizen journalism” can still force policy retreat and keep real stories—of pain, survival, complicity, and resistance—at the center of the national conversation.