How The Trump Admin Could Spy on You with Ronan Farrow

Summary

Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know: How The Trump Admin Could Spy on You with Ronan Farrow

Hosted by 186k Films | Release Date: May 28, 2025

In this gripping episode of "Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know," Hasan Minhaj engages in a profound conversation with investigative journalist and two-time Peabody Award winner, Ronan Farrow. The episode delves deep into the alarming advancements in surveillance technology, its implications on civil liberties, and explores Ronan's latest investigative projects, including his documentary "Surveilled" and his podcast "Not a Very Good Murderer."

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1. Character Descriptions: Setting the Tone [00:02 - 03:16]

The episode opens with a light-hearted exchange between Hasan and Ronan, where they share and critique each other’s character descriptions. This playful banter serves as an engaging icebreaker, highlighting Ronan's meticulousness and Hasan's sharp wit.

Notable Quote:

• Hasan Minhaj [00:27]: "Your adjective sriracha here. Like, it's just enough spice and zing. It resonates."

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2. The Evolution of Surveillance: From Government Tools to Private Hands [04:24 - 07:34]

Ronan Farrow provides an in-depth analysis of how surveillance technology, once the domain of government agencies like the CIA, has become commoditized. Today, private companies offer sophisticated spyware solutions that are both accessible and affordable, raising significant concerns about misuse.

Key Points:

• Privatization of Spyware: Companies like NSO Group develop tools such as Pegasus, which can infiltrate devices without user consent.
• Abuse in Authoritarian Regimes: Pegasus has been allegedly used by the Saudi regime in the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi and in other oppressive actions against activists and dissidents.
• Surveillance in Democracies: Even in Western democracies like Greece, Spain, and Poland, there have been instances of governmental overreach using these technologies.

Notable Quote:

• Ronan Farrow [04:53]: "Pegasus... reality is not all of the infections that are possible will be turned up in those tests."

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3. Personal Implications and Protective Measures [07:35 - 13:43]

Ronan discusses the personal risks associated with such pervasive surveillance, especially for journalists and activists. He shares the precautions he takes to protect his own devices, such as using alternative hardware and secure connections.

Key Points:

• Ronan’s Protective Strategies: Utilizing cash-purchased Wi-Fi hotspots, employing minimalist devices like retro iPods, and limiting app access.
• The Continuous Cat-and-Mouse Game: The perpetual struggle between spyware developers and defense mechanisms employed by tech companies.

Notable Quote:

• Ronan Farrow [08:47]: "We're still living in this era where we think of phones as private spaces, but increasingly that's not the case."

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4. Bipartisan Concerns and Historical Context [22:01 - 25:24]

The conversation shifts to the political landscape surrounding surveillance. Despite common perceptions, Ronan emphasizes that concerns over surveillance and privacy are bipartisan issues, affecting administrations regardless of party affiliation.

Key Points:

• Edward Snowden’s Legacy: Snowden’s revelations during the Obama administration highlighted mass surveillance, yet the issue transcends political boundaries.
• Polarization of Privacy Issues: Often framed as partisan, but fundamentally a human rights concern.

Notable Quote:

• Ronan Farrow [23:18]: "I've always written about this as a bipartisan issue."

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5. Generational Shifts in Privacy Perceptions [25:24 - 28:29]

Hasan and Ronan explore how different generations perceive privacy, noting that younger generations like Gen Z may take privacy for granted or feel powerless against pervasive data extraction.

Key Points:

• Normalization of Data Extraction: Younger generations are more deeply embedded in technology, often overlooking privacy risks.
• Cultural Shifts: Comparing attitudes towards privacy to views on home ownership, suggesting a potential resignation to data commodification.

Notable Quote:

• Ronan Farrow [26:06]: "The new and exciting and elaborate ways to part us from our data have accelerated and therefore the younger generations... data extraction is much more normalized."

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6. "Not a Very Good Murderer": An Exploration of Complex Narratives [28:29 - 43:56]

Ronan introduces his podcast "Not a Very Good Murderer," a series that investigates the enigmatic figure Cece Doane. The podcast blends true crime with character study, unraveling Cece's alleged criminal activities and her intricate personal dynamics.

Key Points:

• Cece Doane’s Story: Allegations include attempted murders, arson, and assaults, painting a picture of a deeply troubled individual.
• Investigative Challenges: Balancing in-depth reporting with ethical considerations of platforming a controversial and potentially dangerous subject.
• Character Dynamics: The complex relationship between Cece and her husband, Jim, highlighting themes of abuse, loyalty, and denial.

Notable Quote:

• Ronan Farrow [30:13]: "Every time I uncovered a new facet of her life... I could say, 'Is there any way to do a story involving this person?'"

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7. Ethical Dilemmas in Journalism: Leak or Don't Leak [43:56 - 47:58]

To illustrate the challenges journalists face in balancing privacy with the public’s right to know, Hasan introduces a playful segment called "Leak or Don't Leak." Through hypothetical scenarios, Ronan discusses the decision-making process behind reporting sensitive information.

Key Points:

• Balancing Act: Determining whether the public interest outweighs an individual's right to privacy.
• Avoiding Sensationalism: Emphasizing the importance of responsible reporting over grabbing attention with sensational details.
• Journalistic Integrity: Maintaining credibility while navigating complex moral landscapes.

Notable Quote:

• Ronan Farrow [44:55]: "Does it elucidate something important and worthwhile, or is it just a gross sidebar that is only going to be upsetting for people."

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8. Conclusion: The Imperative for Vigilance [47:58 - End]

As the episode wraps up, Ronan underscores the necessity for vigilance in protecting privacy rights amidst advancing surveillance technologies. He calls for greater transparency from governments and advocates for robust legal protections to safeguard civil liberties.

Key Points:

• Call to Action: Encouraging listeners to stay informed and proactive in defending their privacy.
• Future Implications: Highlighting the ongoing and evolving threats posed by surveillance technologies in both authoritarian and democratic contexts.

Notable Quote:

• Ronan Farrow [26:40]: "Hopefully will convey to people that there are real stakes."

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Final Thoughts: This episode of "Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know" offers a compelling exploration of modern surveillance, its ethical ramifications, and the personal toll it takes on individuals. Through Ronan Farrow’s expert insights and investigative prowess, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the pervasive threats to privacy and the critical need for safeguarding civil liberties in an increasingly monitored world.

Transcript

[Ronan Farrow]

Lemonade.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I love your character descriptions. Oh, my God, they are sumptuous.

[Ronan Farrow]

Thank you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Every English teacher's dream come true. I want you to read some of your character descriptions.

[Ronan Farrow]

All right?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. All right.

[Ronan Farrow]

Julio, who is 40, has a lumbering gait and pudgy features. He typically wears loose T shirts and jeans with his hair in a utilitarian buzz cut.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I already see the Pixar character. Your adjective sriracha here. Like, it's just enough spice and zing. It resonates.

[Ronan Farrow]

You need a little spice.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, so this one's even better. This is your description of a Russian.

[Ronan Farrow]

Private investigator, Roman Chaikin. The Russian was short and thin and bald, with a quarrelsome snub nose and dark eyes. Everything else about him was pale. Eyebrows barely there. Face bloodless, bald, scalp slick and shining.

[Hasan Minhaj]

God damn, Ronan, slow down. You're killing this guy.

[Ronan Farrow]

Well, he did follow me around for months. You know, I'm allowed to comment on his hair situation.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I was just like. As I was reading this, I could just. The sound effect in my clear me. Like you were unloading the clip. Bald, scalp slick and shining. Hilarious. Okay, if you were writing a story about me.

[Ronan Farrow]

Oh, no, don't put me on this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Come on like this.

[Ronan Farrow]

The thing that immediately leaps to mind is, like, you're cute. You have a boyishness. Boyish in your features.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm melting right now. I can't even, like, contain myself on camera. I wrote a description for you about me.

[Ronan Farrow]

Oh, let's hear this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Will you read this for me?

[Ronan Farrow]

Hasan Minhaj, a youthful 39, scurried into the room like a spry Indian squirrel. His five o' clock shadow adding a rugged, untamed note to his winning smile. Meeting Minhaj's gaze felt like gulping down a fancy bottled water that you know is overpriced, but you don't mind, because it's just so goddamn refreshing. I mean, okay, I. I have notes, but, you know. But I do think you capture you. Also, it seems like you maybe want to. Fuck you. Can we say that hurry, Right away.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, delays are. Make your daddy glad to have had. Ronan Farrow. Looks like a bad journalist. No respected Pulitzer Prize winning reporter could possibly be this handsome. I mean, this is the face of someone who reads off a teleprompter and hosts New Year's Eve specials. But Ronan Farrow, in spite of his handicap of handsomeness, might be one of the best journalists in the country. His reporting helped take down New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, head of cbs. Les Moonves in God level creep Harvey Weinstein. And now he has moved on from hunting individual creeps to hunting industrial scale creeps, AKA spyware companies, which he covered in his recent HBO documentary, Surveilled. So I sat down with Ronan to talk about that documentary, his new podcast, Not a Very Good Murderer, and to exchange hair care tips because, come on, it's Ronan Farrow and we're hair bros in your HBO Max doc, Surveilled. I just gotta say this and give you your flowers. Your hair is full fucking perfect. Every shot, every frame.

[Ronan Farrow]

I wish more of my interviews opened like this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, what's the routine?

[Ronan Farrow]

Well, I had, if I recall in that documentary, long hair, which actually is not what I recommend for crossing borders and going into corporate strongholds where people want to kill you and facing all kinds of opposition because, you know, and then you gotta like find a mirror and do this and this. And I'm a gay man, so I can't pass a mirror without just a compulsive like da, da, da da. So I should say just, I'm a vain man, you know, why am I bringing gays into this? I somehow managed to, I think, like keep it together just with a refusal to shampoo it. I think that sometimes helps. Like you just resign yourself to. It's gonna be a bit messy. You can tuck it behind your ears and you don't shampoo.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'll catch full heat for this, but I am anti big shampoo and conditioner lobby. This is a lobby they are trying to strip, corrupt, corrupt your hair of the natural essential oils that some call grody and nasty, but I think are essential to styling.

[Ronan Farrow]

Well, it's working. It's working on me right here, right now.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's get to some. Now that we've done the fun stuff, let's talk about something serious. I have wanted to have you on the show since you did your HBO Max documentary called Surveilled. Okay? So if you haven't seen it, please go see this documentary for folks who haven't seen the doc. What is spyware and why is it so ubiquitous and how did it become so ubiquitous?

[Ronan Farrow]

The modern surveillance state for some decades has been something we think of as a set of government tools, right? The CIA, given enough time and caring about something, can kind of hack into devices that they want to hack into. What's happened in recent years is that an array of private companies, now comprising a more than a billion dollar size industry, has sprung up offering CIA in a box type solutions. If you have the money, you can essentially Hire for this service. You can get software that is used to infect a target phone, turn it into a listening device, turn on its microphone without notifying the user, turn on its camera without notifying the user, copy and upload into the cloud anything on its drives so any photos you have, any messages you have. And the kind of most prominent players in this field, companies like NSO Group, which in this film I go in and see where they program their software, Pegasus and I talk to their programmers about the moral dilemmas of the software. The respectable or aspiring to be respectable entrance into this field are all say, well, we sell to governments. So the CIA might have its own solution, but other offices in the Pentagon, the Department of justice offices responsible for intelligence in Western European countries, they need these solutions. And these companies say we sell them to those kinds of players. Unfortunately, what's happened in practice in recent years is first of all, this kind of spyware has been used to hijack the phones of activists of dissidents, people who are politically inconvenient of journalists. And that's happened in the places that you expect. You know, there's a famous case of the Saudi Arabian regime in the period of time leading up to the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, the Washington Post columnist, allegedly infecting the phones of people around Khashoggi with Pegasus. The company denies this, but there are credible activist groups that have looked at this and concluded that. What is still more troubling to me is this phenomenon has been playing out in Western democracies where supposedly there's rule of law that should prevent this. So in Greece and Spain and Poland, and the list goes on. You've seen these cases where a government that is supposed to have laws to prevent it, suddenly they're using this kind of, you know, CIA in a box technology that now is so available and so cheap against their political opponents.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We've obviously heard about stories like this for the past decade or so, right. But is the technology, has it gotten a step function better than what we've come to know about it over time? What in your reporting and in the doc that you found to be particularly scary about this moment specifically would say, even when I think your phone, when you were doing the Harvey Weinstein reporting, was infected with the by a company called Black Cube.

[Ronan Farrow]

Well, so Black Cube is an espionage firm out of Tel Aviv staffed by some former Israeli intelligence folks that uses an array of different tools. A lot of their tactics are actually the more old school human surveillance stuff. So, for example, Roman Hyken, the subcontractor that you read that description of was someone that Black Cube hired, a local PI they hired to, you know, follow me to work, follow me to meetings, try to uncover who my sources were. And he and another local contractor did use a software solution to track my phone location so they could follow me around. And I guess the answer to your question about what's so alarming to me right now is that the technology has gotten so, so much more intrusive than that. I think that we're still living.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And this isn't just the little phishing link that your mom gets on WhatsApp. It is way more advanced than that.

[Ronan Farrow]

It's way more advanced than that. It can be a phishing link. It can be a very sophisticated phishing link that really looks like it's from a credible place. It can also be what's called zero click, meaning you just get a missed call. And then Pegasus has done this in various versions. The call comes through. Unless you're looking at your phone in that moment, you won't see it. And the record of the call having come through will be deleted after the fact. And that's all it takes to infect you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

So I think we're still living in this era where we think of phones as private spaces, but increasingly that's not the case. And if you do anything sensitive on your phone or you just are a person who cares about civil liberties and privacy as a human rights value, I think you gotta start realizing your phone is a public square. And the government, and also potentially moneyed private actors have access to your phone if they want to.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, the Pegasus stuff is so scary. In the documentary, what happens when a bad faith actor like Iran or Al Qaeda or the US Government has access to this type of technology?

[Ronan Farrow]

Well, it's really scary. And I gave you that example of Jamal Khashoggi and his murder. There's been murders and acts of violence against journalists and dissidents from the Philippines to Mexico to Pakistan. What the human rights groups tracking this issue uncover is there was spyware that was used in the period running up to that. This isn't just sort of an incidental or an abstract concern. This is something that's getting people hurt.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's this moment in the doc where you basically, I call it the iPhone STD moment. You're with some members of European Parliament and they test to see if their phone and their devices have been hacked. It was very powerful. It was this moment of like, you have herpes.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, totally. You're infected and they Did.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, they did.

[Ronan Farrow]

Some of them had herpes that day. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I wanted to ask you as a journalist who is. You have chased down really bad actors. Have you had iPhone and MacBook STDs without violating your.

[Ronan Farrow]

I have been technology HIPAA tested and try to be tested as regularly as possible. And there are actually tools you can download to do some testing. Citizen Lab is one group that does this kind of work. If you're, you know, an activist, a dissident, a journalist in a country where this technology is being used in illicit or extralegal ways, like get in touch with Citizen Lab is one piece of advice. But also like Amnesty International for instance, offers a tool that you can download to do some checking into whether you've been infected. But the reality is not all of the infections that are possible will be turned up in those tests. And what I describe in my reporting on this issue is this everyday cat and mouse game between hackers, spyware makers on the one hand, and the big tech companies and their defense teams on the other. So at any given point in time, there could be some new exploit that these hackers come up with that is less detectable and that the tests can't keep up with. So as far as I know, since that episode where I was followed around using my GPS data, I have stayed clean. And I use a lot of different approaches to try to protect myself when I'm on sensitive stories, particularly if I'm working with government whistleblowers. You know, I'll purchase a WI fi hotspot with cash at some mall that's far away from where I usually am. I'll tie that to like a slightly retro ipod that can only operate signal and doesn't have a lot of other access to apps on it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is Ronan's modern sort of born identity.

[Ronan Farrow]

I mean, it's so unsexy, but yeah, it's just like me on this like chunky ipod that you got from like a Westfield. Yeah, exactly. Hooked up to a WI fi hotspot. But, but the reality is it's not feasible to operate that way all the time. I have to reserve that because it's such an impediment. I have to reserve that for the most sensitive of stories. There's always meeting in person. But again, some of the time we have to work remotely and we have to work quickly. And the practical reality is for most people's use cases, most of the time, even most journalism, there's not going to be enough white hot interest in cracking into your sources to have this happen. This is not an everyday occurrence in the United States right now.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Ronan Farrow]

That said, I think it is really telling how widespread these abuses have become in places where people said, we never thought it would happen here. And the reality is the US Government does possess these tools, and I think we should all be really, really on guard.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You wrote an article in November 2024 called the Technology the Trump administration could use to hack your phone. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you is we are seeing a crackdown with protesters and dissidents. You know, Mahmoud Khalil, the unnamed French scientist that tried to enter the United States, obviously, recently. That Georgetown professor. Is this type of surveillance technology used on them? Like, what are you seeing in the tea leaves and in your research?

[Ronan Farrow]

Well, there's what we know now, which is. We don't. No.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Ronan Farrow]

We don't have cases of this overreach happening on US Soil. There are a couple of edge cases where I've interviewed US Citizens who have been infected with Pegasus, for instance. So the protections are not totally complete. But for the most part, we are not seeing this happen en masse yet in the United States that we know of. But part of the problem with this technology is it's designed to be secret.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Ronan Farrow]

And the government. And we're all.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We're playing catch up.

[Ronan Farrow]

We're playing catch up. And the government is not transparent about these tools, and it has not made assurances about what it is and isn't doing with them. So, for example, last year, ice, our government agency responsible for immigration, they just bought one of these tools, a really potent one, from an Israeli firm also called Paragon. And. And we don't fully know the current.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Status of that contract stuff pulled from, like, Hercules.

[Ronan Farrow]

They are kind of. Hercules is like flying villainy coded.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, it's like Saturn's belt. They're all this kind of thing.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah. Black cube. I sort of marveled at the espionage field. I think attracts people with a strong sense of drama. So they like a little drama.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an understatement.

[Ronan Farrow]

I think in this case, you know, these are tools that could be used legitimately and practically.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Ronan Farrow]

And in the film and in this piece and other pieces I've done on spyware, we kind of. We give full space to the arguments by law enforcement officials that this can be helpful in legitimate cases. But I do feel confident saying that we do not have enough transparency about how these tools are being used now by the US Government. And the point of this article was this deal had gone through. And I'm aware of other non public deals between US Government offices and spyware firms. We don't have enough disclosures about that. And we have an administration now that has explicitly said that it wants to do things that represent extralegal overreach of various kinds. We have people in leadership roles now who have explicitly said they want to prosecute journalists. We've have people in leadership roles who have explicitly talked about, you know, mass deportations that certainly seem to fly in the face of due process. And we're, we're seeing some of that play out. So those are all initiatives that I think lend themselves to scary uses of this technology. And it's all the more reason why we need to be careful with our devices and call for more answers from our government about what the red lines are and how they're going to use and not use these tools.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

It's, it's funny, I was trying to. So I was trying to flex that. I was interviewing you. So I'm on a group thread with my friends that I grew up with. It's called Da Boys. This is a very like, straight dude thing. And I was bragging. I'm like, I'm interviewing Ronan Farrow. We're going to talk about surveillance. And one of my buddies was like, he works in tech. And he's like, we already know this. Like, how is this any different than what we already know? I'd like to set the table here a little bit. And I remember I was, I was kind of getting into it with him on group chat. And he's right. June 2013, the Edward Snowden story comes out. And it basically reveals that the NSA is doing mass surveillance on the American public, right? And then if you had any of those your PDF bro friends, they started putting sticky notes on their MacBook cameras, right? We all had that friend in college. And then here we are 12 years later. We've known about this. How is the time that we're living through right now scarier than what we already knew back then?

[Ronan Farrow]

Well, the tools have gotten a lot more available, a lot cheaper, and a lot more robust. So your friend is absolutely right that the modern surveillance state is nothing new. And in many ways, since 9 11, there's been this spiral downward into the erosion of civil liberties, the erosion of privacy values, you know, kind of Panopticon style surveillance all the time. That march has continued onward and this is a new subspecies, which is that the technology has become more and more privatized. Some of the best innovation in the field is happening in the private sector, a lot of it out of Israel, which I think is not a coincidence, because Israel has this very natural pipeline directly from mandatory government service and the military and intelligence services to the private sector. And, you know, I quote people in my reporting, like Palestinian Knesset members and stuff, who also really believe that the conflict around Israel provides a ready test bed for this technology. And indeed, Pegasus, for instance, has been found on the phones of Palestinian activists. So there's just a state that has all of this incredible talent, that is a thriving tech innovation hub and that is immersed in an existential conflict that constantly drives up the demand for this tech and also seems willing to deploy it in a kind of police state kind of way against this population. It has right there.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's pretty chilling stuff. I want to play a clip from you. This is CBS's first report on Edward Snowden. And Snowden talks about this. This concept of turnkey tyranny. Let's check it out. A new leader will be elected. They'll flip the switch, say that because of the crisis, because of the dangers that we face in the world, you know, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it, and it'll be turnkey tyranny. I mean, this feels like he's totally talking about what you wrote in your November piece in the New Yorker.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, I think that's right. I think the more these tools become omnipresent and the more this just becomes the norm, that we can get into any device anytime we want with fewer and fewer restraints, the more we slide into the kind of situation that he's describing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I was thinking about this, and I don't know if you agree with me here, but feels like the concept of surveillance has been talked about in mass surveillance specifically for over a decade. But is it frustrating to you that it's only popular with mainstream Democrats when a Republican is in office? I mean, the Snowden stories, the Obama era.

[Ronan Farrow]

Right, of course. Well, I've always written about this as a bipartisan issue.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

And, you know, my stories on privacy issues have come out under administrations of both parties. And I've talked about how actually a lot of the threats to civil liberties that I write about, a lot of the issues in general, you know, whistleblower protection being one of them. For instance, in this latest Story. These are issues I've written about for years and where I've talked about the expansion of some of these problems under, for instance, Barack Obama.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

So I think that it is really unfortunate when these issues that should be nonpartisan human rights issues get thrown into this crucible of partisanship.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Ronan Farrow]

And you hear people responding to reporting about troubling technology that both parties have embraced more and more with. Well, this was. This is about the other guys.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Correct. I mean, it's like, this is. If Snowden comes out during the Obama years, he's framed by. I'm not gonna say all but many mainstream Democrats as kind of a traitor. Had he done that same type of whistleblowing and revealing those types of documents during the Trump years, he certainly. If I were gonna do a DraftKings pick, I would bet that he'd be lauded by mainstream Democrats as this sort of hero, as a patriot.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, I don't know. I think people who care about privacy rights and civil liberties, as far as I've seen, do tend to consider Edward Snowden to be someone who made a positive contribution to the discourse. Ultimately, you know, whatever you think of his particular methods or where he wound up after, I am just a person who believes firmly in whistleblowing, and I think the legal infrastructure to protect whistleblowers is really pivotal. And anytime you see an administration that ramps up whistleblower prosecutions, it's something we should object to. And unfortunately, we've seen that kind of ramp up of retaliation under administrations of both parties.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's also a generational divide when it comes to the discourse around privacy. Like, I feel like millennials and Gen X privacy was a big deal to us. And when it comes to the TikTok ban stuff, I feel like Gen Z, they've kind of let it go. Like, it feels like. I mean, especially when the Democrats were presenting the TikTok ban, every kid in college was like, I'll give Xi Jinping a fucking DNA swab before I use Instagram reels. I could give a fuck.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You know, what's, like, what's going on there?

[Ronan Farrow]

I think it's always been very hard, historically, to make people care about privacy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I think it's just for the PDF bros, like, every. Every. Do you know what PDF bros are?

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, so you have, like, a group of friends. There's always that one guy who, like, reading all the Panama papers.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Or like, read the full 9, 11.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah. The tinfoil hack. Yeah. And we need that. We need those.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And we need the PDF.

[Ronan Farrow]

I might be that guy. It's. I think that tough sell on caring about privacy has always been present historically.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

I think the new and exciting and elaborate ways to part us from our data.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

Have accelerated and therefore the younger generations you're talking about are just much more in the crosshairs and that data extraction is much more normalized.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Or have they given up? That's the thing. Meaning maybe the younger generation because they've been so, like, entrenched in technology since birth. Gen Z treats data privacy the same way they treat home ownership.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's never going to fucking happen. So why care?

[Ronan Farrow]

Well, I think that's why I was.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thinking about it for me personally too.

[Ronan Farrow]

Of course.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We all grapple with this Alexa and my Nest.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yep.

[Hasan Minhaj]

They already know everything about.

[Ronan Farrow]

For sure. And we've all had that experience of like, you know, we reject the cookies when we can, but we're making decisions all the time where our data is going out to these giant, I'll say only slightly facetiously, evil corporations. We make those compromises constantly. It's not great. It might be inevitable to some extent, but I do think that we can make a difference in terms of knowing about the risks, caring about them, and hopefully voting people in who care about them and are going to put guardrails on how all that data is used. These kinds of cautionary tales about how other Western democracies have slid into abuses, I hope wake people up in our country and get them to say, hey, right now it may seem inconsequential that, like, I wanted to play this PlayStation game and I just signed away my life to Electronic Arts, particularly not Electronic Arts, for the love of God. I think that if you then juxtapose it with what's happening around the world, though, and what happens when there's not regulation on how your data can be used once it's harvested and you see how people potentially actually get hurt due to intrusions on their private data.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

Hopefully will convey to people that there are real stakes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. I want to talk about your new podcast. Okay. It's called Not a Very Good Murderer, which is great title. This is an amazing title.

[Ronan Farrow]

I'm really glad you think so, because everyone has been saying that and it's actually. It's a. It's a hit out of the gate now.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

It's been. It's like right now in the top 10 nonfiction things on Audible podcasts. On Audible. Yeah. Which is a tough, busy market to break through the title. I think has driven it a lot. But I'll tell you, behind the scenes, I had to fight for it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Really? Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

People didn't get the title when I was mooting it. I mean, some people did, and I was insistent about it. And it's a quote from the main character.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What was the network note that you. You got. Because we always get the network. What's the network?

[Ronan Farrow]

I kind of. I'm reluctant to even speak it into the universe, but I'll.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's out.

[Ronan Farrow]

It's just us. It's just us here, right on the World Wide Web. Yeah, exactly. It's Internet friends. No, I think one executive was like, well, if it has not a very good in the title, then it's gonna lend itself to puns about the quality of the podcast. And I'm like, well, you know what? People can say It's a not good podcast if they want to, with or without the title. And thankfully, the reviews have been wonderful and the title's awesome.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The title is very funny. I think it's very clever. But the story of how, you, dare I say, stumbled into this podcast, you were basically researching another story.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I'm gonna paraphrase here. I'm gonna comedically paraphrase. You were basically researching a story that was along the lines of Joe Biden has been a creep for a very long time.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yes. We've seen this out there. The psychiatric Prof. Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But then you meet this woman named Cece. I'm going to ask you the most difficult question I've asked you today. Okay, briefly summarize. Cece.

[Ronan Farrow]

Oh, boy. That is the most difficult question. The whole four and a half hours of this podcast are an answer to that question. And as you say, I came into this fact checking vetting process pursuing this kind of explosive political allegation that she had. And upon arriving at her sort of palatial manse in one of the wealthiest communities in the country, Paradise Valley, Arizona.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Arizona. Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

And started vetting her.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Ronan Farrow]

And talking to her. I found her incredibly entertaining. And everyone that heard the tape of us talking was like this. This is already a podcast.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Ronan Farrow]

She's very problematic. Very funny, very sharp.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I would say hilarious.

[Ronan Farrow]

She's a hilarious person. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Ronan Farrow]

She has a lot of charisma and.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Charm, but a character.

[Ronan Farrow]

But a character.

[Hasan Minhaj]

USA character's welcome.

[Ronan Farrow]

Exactly. There you go. You know, buy the adaptation, folks. It was shocking. Every time I uncovered a new facet of her life, I remember drafting up, like, is there any way to do a story involving this person? Or does she Just have too many question marks around her credibility. And that's the vetting process that I chronicle in the series I put together.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That she's a fan of you as well.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Or she Stans you.

[Ronan Farrow]

She's both kind of obsessed with and furious at me. Like, she threatens to punch me at multiple points. She, you know, she gets into these kind of blind rages at me. She thinks I represent this liberal intelligentsia that she hates and resents. But then also, she's kind of curious about that world outside of her partisan and culturally myopic bubble. I mean, she doesn't leave home anymore, so she's literally. She's in. Behind her high walls, in her mansion, very, very afraid of the world. And she's the kind of person who voted for Donald Trump twice and told me, I'm doing this because the country is falling apart and immigrants are sweeping the nation and they're murdering and they're raping. So she really imbibed all of that. She completely bought into the big lie around the 2020 election. And as I started investigating Cece. This woman's name is Cece Doane. That parenthetical grew to be like a true crime novel. It was like she was investigated by the FBI for allegedly sending death threats to her own family. She was investigated by the local police for trying to kill one husband by hiring a hitman. She was investigated by the police for trying to allegedly kill another husband by hiring someone to overdose him with Viagra. She was alleged to have burned down her house, then alleged to have, when they tried to pull her away from the flames, drunkenly assaulted a police officer and also one of her daughters. And it just. It went on and on and on. And I remember someone, like, looking over my shoulder and being like, you just need to add at the end, she is iconic outside of front. I think I grappled with this decision.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Can I tell you how I felt a few episodes into it? And cece is clearly unhinged, but I actually think the husband might be crazier, because I'm giving a little bit away here, but he was certainly convinced that cece was trying to kill him. The police department convinced him. They're like, hey, your wife is trying to kill you, and he stays with her.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yes. I mean, this gets at what we started talking about with it being very complicated to summarize who this woman is, because the whole wide swing of this project, and I had no idea how it was gonna go over with people.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

Is that it's not one simple thing. It's kind of. It's a camp tragic comedy. It crosses into all these different tones.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Tragicomedy meets a reality show. It felt like meets true crime as well.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, it's like a little bit true crime, you know, S Town, but also a little bit like my kind of very, very precise, non narrative investigative thing. It is about me kind of cracking a series of cold cases that I stumble into in the course of vetting her. But it's also this very rich, detailed, rounded character portrait where, you know, I don't shy away from the fact that, like, she may say things that will enrage you. She has caused all of this destruction in her life. She is a person who lives in denial and fantasy, but also she is vulnerable and charming and funny. In some ways, she's incredibly abusive towards me. Over the course of this, which I think gives a window into the way in which she has been abusive towards people in her family and her life. I became fascinated with the relationship. And there's an episode that is solely devoted to looking at and anatomizing what makes this tick. This guy who told the police at the time that he was afraid of her. Yeah, this is cece's husband, the husband, Jim.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Can you tell me what the vibe was like, though, between the two of them? Are they sleeping in different rooms? Are they in the same room?

[Ronan Farrow]

They do appear to sleep in the same room. It's not simple like they. I do think they love each other.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What?

[Ronan Farrow]

And I. And I do think that he is earnestly devoted to her, even though it is an abusive relationship towards him at times.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you see this as a straight guy thing? Because I see it as a straight guy thing a little bit too, which is heterosexual men will get obsessed with the team and they go, I'm ride or die, Pick or stick.

[Ronan Farrow]

Maybe.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But just because you're an Eagles fan doesn't mean if the Eagles are trying to kill you, you can switch it up, man.

[Ronan Farrow]

I think I would say that's sensible advice. And by the way, there is a whole subplot in which CeCe became convinced that there was a love. Like an MMF love triangle. And there's this guy who's a lawyer of theirs that she got jealous of, and Jim says he's straight, but that's a whole complicated mess that an episode is devoted to sorting through. And is one of the motivations behind the alleged murder attempt directed at him? I think that what I see in their relationship is both this incredibly destructive dynamic where they have together built a vast enabling infrastructure. This is a woman who claimed to me, with a straight face that she did not remember a lot of these incidents from the police reports. And actually, there are points in the series where she turns to Jim and she's like, the fire and me being institutionalized and arrested. And I don't remember any of this. Why didn't you tell me about this? And I think there's is a lot that feeds into that. She's someone who has struggled with alcoholism, and I really. I have to say, I'm very grateful that she confronted all this hard stuff over the course of our conversations, because I think there's a lot of families that deal with people like this and deal with dynamics like this around emotional abuse, physical abuse, addiction. I think all of that feeds into a situation where there's a combination of perhaps her genuinely, as she claims, having blackout periods around some of these alleged crimes, but then also having built a life where she can turn away from some of the more destructive things that she's done. It's a sad story. I mean, the tragic part of the tragicomedy is there by the end, too, because that enabling structure has resulted in a rift where her daughters won't have any contact with her.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. This is a philosophical question because you are one of America's most preeminent journalists. Are you? Are you. Did you struggle with the idea that you're making cece famous?

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, I talked about it a lot with my colleagues and I. And obviously this is a dilemma around most, maybe virtually all of my stories. Right. Anything.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Because there is a world where this podcast becomes one of the biggest podcasts in the country. She becomes wildly famous, and then two years later, Donald Trump makes her Secretary of State.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She does seem like cabinet material these days. Here's the thing. Anytime you are reporting on criminality, you have to ask these questions. You know, to what extent am I platforming someone and glamorizing. Yeah, someone. And I think that is an extremely case by case judgment that turns on both the seriousness of the crimes and the way in which you execute your approach. So, for me, I do not buy into the argument that any platforming is bad and damaging. I think that it is possible and even necessary to delicately explore without letting off the hook, people who engage in troubling things. And I think in this case, a lot of energy went into striking this balance where, you know, there are these alleged attempted crimes that are serious that I'm investigating, and I don't want to let her or anyone else off the hook for that sort of thing. There are Certain cultural views that are bigoted that come out over the course of this that I don't want to let her off the hook for. There are pieces of misinformation that come from her that I need to call out. But I think that actually all of that comes together into a character who is important for us to understand. Like, she makes the point that there is a vast, silent. Her framing. I would say not so silent these days, but even majority possibly of this country that shares at least some of these traits.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right. She's like an avatar of what some people in this country believe in.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah. I mean, I became fascinated in doing a really deep and compassionate, but not apologetic for her. Anatomy of a kind of character that I think is at a lot of our Thanksgiving dinner tables now is in a lot of our communities now.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's this really interesting philosophical question that you have to grapple with as a journalist, which is it's your job to have a subject and reveal through your reporting, private information about that subject. But at the same time, is violating people's privacy? Is privacy kind of a bad thing for journalism? Because you have to sometimes cross that line. And I wonder how you.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's something I grapple with a.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Lot, like who deserves privacy and who doesn't.

[Ronan Farrow]

Uh huh.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You know, that's right.

[Ronan Farrow]

And in this course of investigating serious criminal allegations, where you're dealing with, you know, police reports and law enforcement officials that form the backbone of an investigation, like in this series.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Ronan Farrow]

The fact is, you do then get into the personal lives of the people accused of those crimes. This is also a complicated case because CeCe is someone who I think is very angry.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

And very erratic and very ambivalent about the entire existence of the project. I explained to her many times, like, this is gonna get into all of this detailed personal stuff.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. And it's gonna go deep.

[Ronan Farrow]

And it's gonna go deep and there's gonna be painful stuff in it. You know, you're not going to like every part of this series. And she nevertheless, you know, signed all of her releases and came back to do more interviews for years and years.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Holy shit.

[Ronan Farrow]

So even though there are times where she might rage at me and hate the project, threaten to punch me, at one point in recent days, she actually called a producer and said she was going to get on a plane and come over there and kill you all with my bare hands.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Holy shit.

[Ronan Farrow]

Which was a joke, but also not a joke. Right, right, right, right. I am sympathetic, you know, and I want to kind of Be there for the subjects of my reporting in whatever way I can to kind of explain to them the care, the extent to which it is animated by compassion. This is not a drive by, you know, and I've had her daughters calling and saying that they're, you know, grateful for the podcast and that it was cathartic for the family. So I think it. And all those people out there who have told me this reminded me of my mother. This helped me process my experiences of grappling with intergenerational political extremism.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure. And trauma.

[Ronan Farrow]

And trauma, yeah. It raises a lot of issues that I think can help a lot of people. And in terms of when there's a subject that is something of an adverse subject at the heart of it, where you're looking into crimes they committed and they might not want that, I think you just have to be really straight with them. And I told her time and time again, like, this is what this is. I'm looking at all this tough stuff.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, you have to deal with very tough and sticky edge cases. Do you leak the story? Do you reveal the story? Do you not? And I wanted to kind of, kind of test the Ronan Farrow and I wanted to play a game with you. This is an exclusive game in our Ronan Farrow episode of Hasa Minhaj doesn't know. It's called Leak or don't Leak. I'm gonna present you a story. Okay. An alleged inside scoop that hits your DM or email and you have to tell us, do you leak the story? You don't leak the story.

[Ronan Farrow]

Do you mean just report the story?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure, yeah, sure.

[Ronan Farrow]

I know that's not as sexy a term.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No. But it's gotta be leaked. But leak or don't leak makes a better graphic. Yeah, yeah, you know me with graphics.

[Ronan Farrow]

Get some graffiti style leaking.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Fine. Reporter. Don't report. Leak or don't leak. Let's go with leak or don't leak. Okay, so I'm going to give you some examples of, let's say, confidential information that hits you via DM or email. And you tell me leak or don't leak. Okay. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas has ibs.

[Ronan Farrow]

Do not report. Do not leak.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is it because he already looks like he has gastrointestinal?

[Ronan Farrow]

Probably mean, maybe he had it coming.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He's not nearly as mean Ronan as.

[Ronan Farrow]

Some of the judicial choices.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

This gets at our question about balancing kind of privacy and compassion and investigative instincts in a case like CC's. For instance, in this podcast, there was a lot of personal stuff that I didn't put into these scripts.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's crazy, Ronan. Like, I'm. Like, nothing was left out here.

[Ronan Farrow]

Oh, yeah, no, there is, like, some truly crazy shit that would have been seductive to put in, in a way. Right? Because, like, you're telling the story and you want every sensational detail on one level. But I actually, I really work hard to not be a sensationalist. And the balancing test for me, for each and every detail that goes into something like this is, does it elucidate something important and worthwhile, or is it just, like a gross sidebar that is only going to be upsetting?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Ronan Farrow]

For people.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it. So I probably know your answer here. Adam Schiff made a sex tape, but it was with his wife.

[Ronan Farrow]

Aww.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Don't. Don't leak. Keep it private.

[Ronan Farrow]

I think there would have to be some other facet to the story that would make it newsworthy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Ronan Farrow]

Like, I encourage all of us to be making sex tapes with. Well, really, I mean, whoever. Consenting, but, you know, especially our spouses. I think if there were some, you know, saga around the chain of custody of the sex tape or something, then it could be fair game.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, got it. Okay. How it got distributed. All right.

[Ronan Farrow]

I don't think that's a pornhub hit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is a spicy.

[Ronan Farrow]

No offense. Maybe I'm just talking about him. His wife sure is lovely.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is a spicy meatball. Zendaya cheated on Tom Holland.

[Ronan Farrow]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Did you hear the gasp?

[Ronan Farrow]

No, I wouldn't report on that. Well, what purpose does that serve?

[Hasan Minhaj]

You just said you have to report the biggest scoops in the world. Breaking news. Love is Dead by Ronan Farrow.

[Ronan Farrow]

There's a reason I don't work for tmz. No offense to tmz. Be nice to me at lax, please. Like. Right, okay. So, as someone who has been in the crosshairs of tabloid shit all my life, that's one of the reasons why I don't include every sensational detail in every story. Because for me, it has to be in service of some elevated goal, right? Like in. In this series, it's getting that deep portraiture of her and her politics and her. The culture of denial that some people live in, both with respect to themselves and respect to the world around them. So certain personal details feed into that and. And help me kind of solve the crimes at issue. And some of them don't. For Zendaya and Tom, God bless them, they're so perfect. They're so perfect. They're so perfect.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So annoying how perfect isn't perfect, but also non problematic. So if they've just merged these two.

[Ronan Farrow]

They seem like, you know, lovely, lovely people. Wish them much success.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It would blow a hole through the space time continuum.

[Ronan Farrow]

What do we gain?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Gotcha. Two more. One is kind of topical and then one is, I think, pretty cool. You are accidentally added to a group chat with Donald Trump's cabinet. But in the group chat, everyone is just sharing their sweet green order. Leak or don't leak.

[Ronan Farrow]

I think that would be worth, like a small web item.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You would like leak it to eater.com?

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, I'd have. First I'd add, I'd have Jeff Goldberg in solidarity.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Add him to the chat. Julian Assange reaches out to you through a secret channel from prison. But it's an encrypted downloadable link to every episode of ted Lasso Season 4, League or don't Leak.

[Ronan Farrow]

Wait, no.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now, this is two lanes merging on the highway here. Ronan, you have like, journalist in prison, you know, whistleblower in prison, but you also have Ted Lasso stans that want to know what happens in season four. Will they turn it around from season three?

[Ronan Farrow]

I got from the context that season four is not out yet. I still stalled halfway through the first season. I gotta. I gotta go back. Huh. It holds up.

[Hasan Minhaj]

First season's great.

[Ronan Farrow]

Okay, okay, I'll keep going.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I believe in the first season, I.

[Ronan Farrow]

Do not do copyright infringement without journalistic purpose, sir. As a content creator, I respect that. I couldn't. I couldn't possibly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thanks for coming on the show.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, it's great.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Ronan Farrell, ladies and gentlemen.

[Ronan Farrow]

Hurry.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right away. No big la.