Is America Heading Towards Civil War? with Ilhan Omar

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Is America Heading Towards Civil War?"

Podcast: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know
Host: Hasan Minhaj (186k Films)
Guest: Ilhan Omar
Date: October 1, 2025

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Overview

This episode grapples with the question: "Is America Heading Towards Civil War?" Hasan Minhaj interviews Congresswoman Ilhan Omar—a Somali-born refugee, two-time Peabody award winner, and Democratic member of the House—about rising political extremism, violence, racism, immigration debates, U.S. militarism, and her personal experience of surviving a civil war. Mixing humor with gravitas, Minhaj and Omar dissect the cultural, historical, and political factors fueling anxiety about the future of American democracy while highlighting Omar’s moral clarity and resilience.

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Key Topics & Insights

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Ilhan Omar’s Upbringing and Resilience

[00:00–03:03]

• Ilhan Omar shares anecdotes from her memoir, "This Is What America Looks Like," illustrating her scrappy nature growing up—getting into physical fights to stand up to bullies.
  • Quote: "Undefeated, I would say undefeated." – Ilhan Omar [01:42]
• She expresses her love of boxing, relating it to her approach to conflict: strategic, methodical, and channeling strength in the face of adversity.

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Confronting Media Stereotypes and Islamophobia

[03:18–04:28]

• Minhaj highlights how Omar, a hijab-wearing congresswoman, is targeted by right-wing media and receives an outsized number of death threats.
• Omar fields pointed “yes or no” questions to counteract conspiracy narratives:
  • “Are you okay with murder?”
    "No." – Ilhan Omar [04:00]
  • "Is Islam fundamentally incompatible with America?"
    “Absolutely not. Islam’s about consensus [...] peace and tolerance.” – Ilhan Omar [04:10]
  • "Are you a Qatari spy?"
    "Absolutely not." – Ilhan Omar [04:27]

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Political Violence & Erosion of Norms

[04:56–11:42]

• Omar recounts the unprecedented level of death threats and reveals she once had the highest number of threats among Congress members, necessitating special security.
  • Quote: “There are multiple people who’ve been incarcerated for threatening to kill me. There’s one right now that’s waiting for sentencing.” – Ilhan Omar [05:22]
• Both reflect on the assassination of political leaders and rising mass shootings.
• Omar compares today’s environment to the turbulence of the 1960s–70s, emphasizing cycles of violence tied to division, but insists the U.S. has strong institutions and that most Americans don’t want civil strife.
  • Quote: “I do not hold the belief that our country is on the verge of a civil war. I do believe that we have institutions that are strong. But I also think that the will of the American people will ultimately prevail.” – Ilhan Omar [11:13]

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Civil War: Lived Experience vs. American Fears

[09:22–11:41]

• Omar brings perspective from surviving the Somali Civil War, noting that while chaos appears sudden to children, adults can usually see the fractures developing over time.
  • Quote: “When you’re eight, it feels like one day everything is fine [...] and the next day, all hell breaks loose. But when you’re an adult, they could see years ahead that something was fundamentally breaking.” – Ilhan Omar [09:48]

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Immigration, ICE, and Xenophobia

[11:42–16:15]

• Discussion on the expansion and militarization of ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement), highlighting abuses, accountability gaps, and the for-profit detention industry.
  • Quote: “They're also violating the rights of people who are not citizens [...] and I think that is dangerous.” – Ilhan Omar [12:56]
• Omar stands firm on abolition of ICE if there’s the political will:
  • “Nothing is too entrenched to be abolished. We just need the will of the people and the will of Congress.” – Ilhan Omar [15:29]

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The Roots and Recurrence of Xenophobia

[18:16–25:19]

• Omar connects anti-refugee sentiment to economic anxiety and political scapegoating. Politicians exploit hardship to justify exclusion and uphold white supremacist narratives, she argues.
  • Quote: “What is baffling to me is that here in the United States, for as much as we have been a country that is seen as an immigrant country, that we are still having this debate.” – Ilhan Omar [19:17]
• Jokes about immigrants’ love for “assimilation” via conspicuous consumption (Balenciaga, Tommy Hilfiger) while noting that most wish simply to be accepted and survive.
• Omar takes comfort in America’s cyclical othering—every wave of immigrants is initially targeted, but ultimately integrated:
  • “It eventually disappears because that is the American fit.” – Ilhan Omar [23:05]
• She emphasizes that with global upheaval (climate change, economics), migration is increasing globally, and the challenge is perennial, not fixable through hate.

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Moral Clarity & Courage in Politics

[26:15–30:19]

• Minhaj asks why Omar hasn’t “restored moral clarity to Congress.” She argues the job is ongoing; politicians should anchor decisions to core values, not just party or majority.
  • Quote: “I have taken votes that have gotten me death threats [...] But at the end of the day, I was clear on why I took that vote—because it was a value alignment.” – Ilhan Omar [29:21]
• Minhaj offers the relatable metaphor of “pepperoni pizza moral clarity” for integrity in politics—sticking to principles even under pressure.
  • Omar agrees: “That is integrity and people do appreciate integrity.” – Ilhan Omar [29:16]

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Israel, Gaza, and Shifting Democratic Discourse

[30:19–32:22]

• Minhaj notes signs of shifting Democratic attitudes towards Gaza and Palestine; Omar says more are breaking away from fear of AIPAC condemnation to advocate for Palestinian rights and a ceasefire.
  • Quote: “I would say the dam (is) starting to break because there were a few of us who had that clarity.” – Ilhan Omar [31:24]

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Harnessing Outrage Productively

[32:22–34:36]

• Omar admits outrage fuels her but emphasizes channeling that energy to take principled votes or risky stances—rather than escapism or inaction.
  • Quote: “Use that rage to empower you to take on an issue that you thought was too much or, like, politically volatile.” – Ilhan Omar [33:21]
• She reflects on the burden and seriousness of representing others in a democracy.

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War Powers and Military Spending

[34:36–45:07]

• Minhaj queries Omar on recent War Powers Resolutions and the President’s unauthorized military actions; Omar argues only Congress can declare war and faults executive overreach.
• Detailed U.S. government “order of operations” for military engagement is humorously explained.
• Omar critiques the nearly $1 trillion defense budget, noting investments that could end homelessness or fund free school meals instead.
  • Quote: “We could use $22 billion to end homelessness. We could use $20 billion to feed children in our schools.” – Ilhan Omar [38:00]
• She denounces U.S. military over-extension and bases abroad, advocating for rechanneling resources to domestic needs.

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Military Industrial Complex and Lobbying

[45:07–48:03]

• Omar discusses the outsized influence of weapons manufacturers and the lack of effective Congressional action due to lobbying:
  • “It is the weapons industry that is heavily lobbying Congress to keep this war machine going because it is to their benefit that we continue to spend this much money on defense.” – Ilhan Omar [44:27]
• She calls for making Pentagon funding an election issue and public accountability.

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American Might & Identity Beyond Militarism

[44:27–47:24]

• Minhaj and Omar discuss redefining American greatness through innovation, education, and societal benefit, not solely militarism.
  • Omar: “All those things are already things that make us mighty... The question is, is it about the arsenal? Or about the men and women? Or all these military bases?”
• Military leaders themselves sometimes oppose budget increases, she says, with growth driven more by politics than security needs.

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Pop Culture and Humanization

[48:03–53:14]

• The episode closes on a lighter note, with stories from Omar’s youth in a Kenyan refugee camp, sneaking over barbed wire to watch Bollywood movies and American shows (“Home Improvement”).
• Playful debate over classic Bollywood films and stars, highlighting cultural connections and moments of nostalgia for both host and guest.
  • Minhaj: “Will you die for me?”
    Omar: “Will you choose your family right now, or will you get on the train with me?” [53:04]

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Notable Quotes

• “Undefeated, I would say undefeated.”
  – Ilhan Omar [01:42]

• “Islam’s about consensus. It’s about hearing people’s voices and perspectives, and it’s definitely about peace and tolerance.”
  – Ilhan Omar [04:10]

• “There are multiple people who’ve been incarcerated for threatening to kill me.”
  – Ilhan Omar [05:22]

• “I do not hold the belief that our country is on the verge of a civil war. [...] I don’t think we want to see that kind of violence. I don’t think we want to see ourselves become the countries we’ve tried to help over the years.”
  – Ilhan Omar [11:13]

• “What is baffling to me is that here in the United States, for as much as we have been a country that is seen as an immigrant country, that we are still having this debate.”
  – Ilhan Omar [19:17]

• “I have taken votes that have gotten me death threats. [...] But at the end of the day, I was clear on why I took that vote—because it was a value alignment.”
  – Ilhan Omar [29:21]

• “Use that rage to empower you to take on an issue that you thought was too much or, like, politically volatile.”
  – Ilhan Omar [33:21]

• “We could use $22 billion to end homelessness. We could use $20 billion to feed children in our schools.”
  – Ilhan Omar [38:00]

• “It is the weapons industry that is heavily lobbying Congress to keep this war machine going…”
  – Ilhan Omar [44:27]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Ilhan’s childhood fistfights & boxing: [01:29–02:55]
• Rapid-fire countering right-wing narratives: [03:41–04:28]
• On receiving death threats in Congress: [04:56–05:47]
• On civil war in Somalia & U.S. parallels: [09:22–11:42]
• Immigration & ICE: [11:42–16:15]
• Xenophobia, white nationalism, and assimilation: [18:16–25:19]
• Moral clarity in politics: [26:15–30:19]
• Democratic Party shifts on Gaza: [30:19–32:22]
• War powers, militarism, and defense budgets: [34:36–47:24]
• Pop culture, Bollywood movies, and human moments: [48:03–53:14]

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Conclusion

Minhaj and Omar deftly weave humor, policy, and lived experience into a deeply human and incisive discussion about America’s present and future. Omar’s unique vantage as a refugee and legislator grounds the conversation in both warning and hope: the threat of division and violence is real, but American institutions and the values of moral clarity and courage can lead the way towards a better, more inclusive society. The episode closes on a lighthearted celebration of pop culture and shared humanity, leaving listeners with both sobering insights and optimism.

Transcript

[A]

Lemonade, you once said that you wanted to, quote, restore moral clarity and courage to Congress. Why did you fail? Ilhan Omar makes Republicans lose their minds. Like, clinically. Half the people watching this right now are probably right wing clippers ready to turn something from this interview into tonight's Fox News chyron. Guys, you don't have to do this. Find love. Find God. Her very existence causes a constant cascade of media rage cycles and death threats. And that's especially concerning in this moment of heightened political violence. Let's be clear, she's been through a lot worse things in her life. She literally survived a civil war, four years in a refugee camp, and by her count, dozens of fist fights with children. So I sat down with her to talk about her scraps, both physical and political, and how she's feeling about her safety in this post Charlie Kirk political environment. We also talked about the time that she literally crawled through barbed wire to watch a Bollywood movie, which is so Bollywood. Okay, so you have a lot of very interesting anecdotes and personal stories in your memoir. Your memoir is called this is what America Looks Like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Talk about being a scrapper.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You would fight.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm talking about full fisticuffs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's your record? I'm talking knockouts, TKOs, or hey, let's break it up.

[B]

Undefeated, I would say undefeated. Yeah. But it's been a while.

[A]

How many total fights have you been into? So I was, I've been in three total fights in my life.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I didn't know I was in three of them until I was hit.

[B]

Yeah. So I, I, I would say like dozens. I was a very, like, tiny kid.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And people would try me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I hated bullies. And so I was, like, quick to punch someone if, you know, I thought they were bullying me or bullying someone else.

[A]

Our producer was telling me when they did the pre interview with your team, they said you're also a boxing fan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you watch the Canelo Crawford fight?

[B]

I did. It was the first time. Cause, like, my, my sons are huge fans, my husband is. But I was home alone in my apartment in Minneapolis and I watched it by myself. And I was texting them and being like, I need somebody to like, to, like, scream with.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Because it got intense really quick and I didn't expect it to be that.

[A]

Intense, but it was a great fight.

[B]

Yeah. And Crawford is a multi puncher, and so I think, like, you know, like, waiting for the right moment was, like, shocking.

[A]

He was super methodical in the fight.

[B]

Yeah. That he didn't prepare to fought Crawford, because if you knew Crawford's style, you. You. You would want to rumble.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was just waiting for the perfect shot. And Crawford got one on.

[A]

No, it was a surgical fight. It was really, really great. Now, just to be clear, you like and approve regulated violence, not Waffle House fights, but yes.

[B]

Yes, Correct. Okay. Yes. I don't think people should be fighting.

[A]

No, no. Well, no, no, because this is important.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You are a congresswoman with a hijab. So immediately, bad faith actors, right wing clippers, they're gonna get after it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm gonna ask you a series of questions, and I just need to know where you stand on the record.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Cause you have a hijab and we're having a good time. This is fodder. Okay. For bad faith actors, these are yes or no questions.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Are you okay with murder?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, let me take it back again, just real quick. So this is for our producer and editor. I'm going to ask the congresswoman, and we need a watermark to make sure that this isn't twisted, aied, or manipulated. Here we go. Fastball down the middle. Okay, straight up, are you okay with murder?

[B]

No.

[A]

What about politically motivated murder?

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

Is Islam fundamentally incompatible with America?

[B]

Absolutely not. Islam's about consensus. It's about hearing people's voices and perspectives, and it's definitely about peace and tolerance.

[A]

Are you a Qatari spy?

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

The reason why I had to ask you these questions is legitimately, there are millions of people that think there is a civilizational level war between Islam and the West. I don't even know what that means. Right, but you are a Muslim Somalian refugee congresswoman who has sworn into office on a Quran, and you wear a hijab on the House floor here in the United States of America. How many death threats do you get per month?

[B]

I think it's too much to count most months. When I came to Congress, I had the record, I think, for like, my first year for the highest number of death threats, you know, and we had severe upticks doing the Trump's first administration to the point where, you know, like, only leadership in Congress, the. The fife in the Senate and five in the House have full detail, which means they're protected 24 hours a day. And I was the only one given that, because death threats, assassination plots, like, there are multiple people who've been incarcerated for threatening to kill me. There's one right now that's waiting for sentencing. So sometimes it does Get a little too much.

[A]

The reason why I I asked that is because in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder, there are a lot of people on the right, including the President, that blame political violence exclusively on the left. Why do you think the President has made this particular death a lightning rod moment for the party?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you know, the President is someone who couldn't even find the time to provide proper condolences when my dear friend, the former speaker of the Minnesota House, was assassinated along with her husband in the comfort of her home. And so we know that he doesn't really care or feel for the damage that political violence does to a society and the civil discourse. And so for him, this is about going after people who disagree with him, who he doesn't like, who he doesn't think should be participating in lawfare in our country. But I do think that the President, as is written in Project 2025, wants to use this moment to go after anybody that politically disagrees with him, disagrees with him personally, disagrees with his policies, disagrees with the rhetoric, and disagrees with the cult like environment that he's cultivating that we believe is leading to an authoritarianism. And so we have to be vigilant in protecting people's First Amendment rights. We have to be vigilant in not allowing them to shape this narrative that someh the left is more violent than the right. When we know that there have been many cases that have been documented since he actually got elected for the first time in 2018, that all the mass shootings that we've had, people who've left the manifestos have said that they've been inspired by, you know, right wing pundits and the President himself.

[A]

Your district in Minneapolis has seen a lot of high profile violence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

George Floyd was murdered in 2020. Since 2014, there have been 52 mass shootings, including the recent one at the Annunciation Catholic School. And then earlier this year, as you previously mentioned, two of your state representatives were assassinated.

[B]

One state representative and one senator who was injured but not killed.

[A]

Do you feel like we have entered a new violent era of politics in this country? What is your insight on all of this? I mean, these stats are pretty staggering.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I would say we have entered a moment we have been in before. You know, the 60s and the 70s were turbulent times as well for us. I think any time where there is this level of political division, you can expect to see what we are seeing today. And I do hope that elected leaders understand that we are in a moment and it is up to us to find a way to move this moment towards something more peaceful, more cohesive, and more connected. Because ultimately, the charge that the Founding Fathers left us with is for us to continue to build a more perfect union. And that is the job that we have.

[A]

One of the things that I keep hearing from people, and this is. And again, this is just the Internet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of people are going, we're on the verge of civil war, bro. Congresswoman, you lived through a civil war. You talk about it in your memoir. You. You write, quote, I was 8 years old when civil war broke out in Somalia. One day everything was okay, and the next there were bullets piercing not only buildings, but also people. How close are we to something like that? Because I saw that quote, and I. And I felt. It felt eerie in this moment.

[B]

I mean, the. The. The thing about a civil war is that when you're eight, it feels like one day everything is fine, okay, and the next day, all hell breaks loose. That when you were an adult, like, you know, my father and grandfather and aunties and uncles and my older siblings, they could see years ahead that something was fundamentally breaking.

[A]

Oh, did they tell you years later that they. They could see it?

[B]

Yes. And I could see that in the discussions when things did break, you know, obviously they remained optimistic that things will get better. Right. And what they thought might happen.

[A]

And the civil war broke out in 91, correct?

[B]

The civil war happened. Yeah. At the end of 1990.

[A]

And I take it when you talk to family members, uncles, aunts, grandparents, they could have sensed that coming from the mid-80s.

[B]

Yeah, because there was a divide between conservatism, liberalism. Right. There was a divide on what, you know, the. The. The role for people in society could be. You know, it was. It was the. The tail end of a dictatorship, and people could feel the. The severe crackdowns and the limitations of. Of their liberties, and then also people deciding that they were going to push back, that they've had enough. And, you know, I do not hold the belief that our country is on the verge of a civil war. I do believe that we have institutions that are strong. But I also think that the will of the American people will ultimately prevail in that. I don't think we want to see that kind of violence. I don't think we want to see ourselves become the countries we've tried to help over the years. And so I think that there is enough of us that don't want a civil war that we might be able.

[A]

To avoid it from the moment that you entered Congress, you have been a vocal critic of ice, and you've been a vocal advocate for immigrants and refugees, and you've been consistent that ICE should be abolished. As we have this conversation right now, and when this episode releases in a few days, ICE is more powerful than ever now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So where do you see this heading and what can be done to stop this? Because it seems like the people in power and perhaps the country at large is okay with this.

[B]

Yeah. But I think the strengthening of ICE and the way in which their mandate right now is being carried out is literally terrorizing neighborhoods and it is creating a military state where your normal civil rights and civil liberties in this country are no longer protected, regardless of what your legal status might be in this country. You have a right to due process. You have a right to know what you're being accused of and being arrested for. And you certainly have a right to only abide by warrants that are signed by a judge.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so what we are seeing right now with the way ICE is conducting themselves, not only are they violating the constitutional rights of people who are citizens because they've picked up citizens, but they're also violating the rights of people who are not citizens in this country who have different levels of status or some that are without status. And I think that is dangerous. And my hope is that when we get back into the majority, that we are able to slow down the kind of damage that ISIS is causing in our communities, because again, it is a for profit machine. You know, the detention centers are oftentimes private. It makes money for people. That's why you have the long holds. That's why we have bills like the Riley Act. Right. You can hold somebody indefinitely. So that's, you know, the owners of these detention centers that are going to make money out of that. But it's also, ICE is an agency that is not accountable. There are so many times where, you know, we have, we reach out and want to have a conversation and check out the detention centers which we are obligated to do as members of Congress. They say no, and there is no repercussions for the fact that they are stopping us from carrying out our oversight duties.

[A]

So, so just so I understand this correctly, they don't have to work exactly in alignment with the police department or law enforcement. They're kind of like their own thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it, is it kind of like the movies where they, where they, they can pull out their badge and they're like, this isn't your jurisdiction. This is my. Like they get to do that the way the CIA and FBI do. Again, and I'm referring to movies which are not accurate, but I'm asking, is it like that?

[B]

Yeah, I mean certainly we are seeing in places where, you know, they're going into courtrooms and and making arrests with people who are doing the right thing, who are showing up to their hearings, making their case for for asyl regular check ins that the immigration judges require them to do. And so like that level of rogueness I think erodes any trust that people might have when it comes to law enforcement and the fact that they're supposed to not only protect and serve, but they are supposed to be the upholders of the Constitution.

[A]

Is ICE too entrenched to even be abolished at this point?

[B]

I mean, nothing is too entrenched to be abolished. We just need the the will of the people and the will of con.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, I mean, oftentimes when you see rampant xenophobia, it is tied to economic hardships. You know, there's obviously the, the bigotry and the othering and all of that, but oftentimes it is politicians pointing to a group and saying this is the reason why you can't have the resources that you need. This is the reason why you can't achieve the American dream. Because, you know, immigrants are taking your jobs. Immigrants are the ones that are getting a priority in ownership. They're the ones who are getting a priority in the small business loans, which, which oftentimes does not fit into the reality. Most immigrants, when they come, they're the, you know, they're working two, three jobs, pulling their savings together, and it's the uncles that open up that corner store together, or you know, the families pooling resources, the hotel and all of these things. Because in a new environment, to build community is essential to survival.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And that is often why you see clusters of new immigrants. But what is baffling to me is that here in the United States, for as much as we have been a country that is seen as like an immigrant country, that we are still having this debate and having it in, in the most vigorous way. But I do think that there, that majority of the conversation is driven by white supremacists who believe in the replacement theory and who think that by allowing immigrants in this country that their supposed white nation is going to end. Which in reality this country, when it Was founded, had native American people, and we did cross into the border of Mexico. So you got brown people, and we did participate in the. In slavery. And so we did bring black people into this country. And so the idea that this is a white nation that needs to be preserved is a fascinatingly disgusting view, because this country is one for the many.

[A]

Well, fundamentally, what do white supremacists want? They want everyone to have their own country. What is their ask? If there even is an ask?

[B]

Their ask is that there to be a respect for their supremacy in regards to racism.

[A]

Well, the way I've seen it framed is immigrants and refugees don't want to accept our values. But let me tell you something. When I've been around immigrants and refugees, there is nothing they love more than values and name brands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you look at a Moroccan immigrant, he loves a Balenciaga T shirt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Big, bold letters.

[B]

That sounds like. That sounds like assimilation.

[A]

Yeah. An uncle from Tunisia. Tommy Hilfiger. Red, white, blue, Egyptian cab driver. Polo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ralph Lauren teddy bear. Us. Literally. Polo. The widest sport you could play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is nothing they love more than assimilating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the biggest font possible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The opposite of succession. This is not quiet luxury. They want to be very loud.

[B]

They do want.

[A]

I'm all in loud.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I accept itunes user.

[B]

And that is kind of what you. That. That is the hope, right, that once you, like, nobody wants to leave there or happy about leaving the place where they were born.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whether it is you leaving your small town to go to the big city or you leaving your country to go to another country. That is a devastating thing to do. And. And the last thing you want to do in that new environment is to not be. To do everything, to not be accepted. All you want is to be accepted. You want to be a normal person that, you know, is. Is carrying on their. Their life and. And building, you know, friendships and connection to whatever community you find. And. And that. That. That. That. That is the story of. Of many immigrants. But in. In this country, like I said, we. We constantly struggle. You know, we. We had problems with Italian immigrants. We had problems with Irish immigrants. You know, we had problems with German immigrants, you know, Chinese, whatever, like new American that has come over the decades. Like, there's always been a problem. There's always been an othering. And I find comfort in that.

[A]

You find comfort in that?

[B]

I do find comfort.

[A]

And that there's been consistent hatred across the board. So.

[B]

Yes. And it eventually disappears because that is. That is the American fit, According to.

[A]

The UN in April of this year, there were 42.7 million refugees worldwide. That is double of what it was a decade ago. So this is not going away. And what we were chatting about off camera, and what I, we wanted to ask you is, well, how do you assuage this? This is not going away. People will move due to political instability because they are asylum seekers and because they are refugees. What can this nation do to ameliorate this kind of tug of war that continues to happen culturally about people who come from different cultures?

[B]

One thing I think people forget is that, or maybe they don't know is that we have the highest number of migration since history has recorded migration. And so, yes, your country is bound to have people who are coming from another country. Right. It is not just the political instability, because the world seems a little bit more volatile than it was before. It's also climate change.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's also just lack of opportunity and economic strains that are happening throughout the world. And so I don't think there is anything to mitigate the hate and the xenophobia that people are experiencing. What, what I have found as I look back in the history of, like, migration and how countries have accepted or not accepted is that it eventually disappears for different groups and it's layered. Right. And so you'll, you'll have the immigrants of the past telling the immigrants of now not to come, or they don't want them in their country because they've now adopted that country. And then you'll have the immigrants of now tell the immigrants of tomorrow that they are not welcome. That's just the history of the world. And again, you know, it sounds silly, but I find comfort in that because it is not a place we're going to be stuck in. We're going to find new immigrants tomorrow.

[A]

That one day that your daughter and your children will pull the ladder up like other people that came before them.

[B]

Not in that ladder up and push them down.

[A]

It is the American way. Like, is this the hope?

[B]

No, my, my hope is that it eventually breaks. Right. It eventually just becomes like, we've done this to everybody. Nobody deserves this. Let's just move, move on and recognize that people do move around. But, but I, I will end with saying that, you know, in, in, in many cases, new people in your country offer new opportunities, whether it is a new restaurant, a food that you have not eaten before, a language that you didn't even know that existed, that now you know cuss words for sure. You know, there, there is, there is an enrichment that is Possible, if you are willing to look at that.

[A]

You once said that you wanted to, quote, restore moral clarity and courage to Congress. Why did you fail?

[B]

Still working on it. I'm still there.

[A]

You've had many Democratic operatives on this show, and they have done a version of, I call it Word Salad Haikus, that if I say a collection of these sudoku words, somehow I will be able to turn voters onto my side and get them to vote for me. What do you mean by moral clarity being the driver of why you got into politics?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, in. In many ways, when people, like, are thinking about policymaking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They do not think of, like, what would I like to see? Right. Like, what sits well in my heart? Like, what is morally right and morally objectable.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

What they will do is, you know, I'll vote my district, I'll vote with the leadership, I'll vote with whatever groups are sending.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And for me, I think what is important and why you get elected is that you have presented a set of values.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That explain where your morality is. Yes. And yes. You are. It's assumed that you're courageous because you're running to put your ideas out there and to defend that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so keeping that with you. Right. Like that. More clarity. The principles in which you ran on.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is. Is something that needs to be restored. In, In Congress, people used to duel because they. They had extreme convictions. Yeah.

[A]

It was crazy. People, like, willing to duel and die.

[B]

Yes. What was important to them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, you have people now, like, they're taking a vote on some resolution or some bill, and, like, they're crying because they don't want to take that vote. And to me, it's like, why just do the right thing? I mean.

[A]

Well, it is politics, Congresswoman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's the problem.

[B]

Politics doesn't have to be a game. Politics doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

[A]

But can you have pepperoni pizza? Moral clarity when it comes to politics. So for those that are watching that aren't Muslim, you can have cousins that are agnostic, atheist. If you grew up in a Muslim household, you have pepperoni pizza. Clarity that will not eat pork.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like, if I go to a birthday party and they're like, this is pepperoni pizza.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'll go, I cannot eat it. They go, well, we'll take the pepperoni off. It still has pepperoni. Yes, I have pepperoni pizza. Moral clarity on this issue.

[B]

Yes. That's a good. That's a good way to say, can.

[A]

That be applied to Politics, which is essentially a quid pro quo game.

[B]

It can really. It can because. Because that is integrity and people do appreciate integrity. I have taken votes that have gotten me death threats. I have taken votes where I go home and my family's like, was this necessary? I've taken votes where half of my constituency is upset. But at the end of the day, I was clear on why I took that vote. Because it was a value alignment. Right. I am not upset, I am not sad. I am not conflicted. I am clear on what that vote was about and what it would mean to my constituency and to this country that I serve. And that is all I'm hoping for. And I would say on some issues, we've brought people along to have that, that clarity and make the right judgment call.

[A]

One of the issues that you have had very vocal moral clarity on is Gaza. And there seems to maybe, and I italicize this on my question card, maybe a tiny shift in your party's stance on Gaza. Bernie Sanders finally said the G word. So did House Minority Whip Catherine Clark. Seven Senate Democrats introduced a resolution to recognize a Palestinian state. Do you think the party is shifting closer to your position on Gaza?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you know, we were being ostracized for even using Palestinian or, you know, like talking about Palestine, talking about the occupation. People would get really upset. I remember when the report on apartheid came out and we read it into the House record, people were upset and they called us anti Semites and all kinds of names just for reading this, like amnesty report into the Congressional Record. And so to find ourselves in a place where you have, you know, a couple of dozen Democratic senators voting to stop sending weapons to Israel, where you have the block the bombs legislation that I think has about 60 or more now members of Congress to have been called repugnant for introducing a ceasefire resolution to. Now everybody, not just calling it calling for a ceasefire, but also using the, the genocide description for what Israel is carrying out in Gaza. Like, I would say the dam kind of starting to break because there were a few of us who had that clarity on saying, yeah, I'm not going to be afraid of aipac. I'm going to speak my mind because this is the right thing to do.

[A]

I wanted to share a quote from your book. And you say my strength doesn't come from a lack of fear, but from an overpowering sense of moral outrage. Now, I think a lot of people feel moral outrage. They just feel overwhelmed by it. They're like, this is too much. I gotta watch great British bake. Off. This is too much. I can't handle this. There's too much shit on fire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let me just watch Love Island.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can I tell you how many people watch Love island because they've just had enough?

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, I, you seem.

[A]

To be powered by it.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I mean, I, you know, more power to those people. And I certainly have, you know, my days where I go home and I just put on a Bollywood movie and, like, that's how I, Things disappear. But, but I, I think too many people, and I'm only talking mostly about, like, members of Congress, people who are, or elected officials, people who are in positions of power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think the outrage comes oftentimes when they see people, like, doing a rally or their gold rally and speak. And for me, it's a carry that energy. Use that energy to give you the bravery to take the tough votes. Use that energy to allow you to sign on to a letter that would make you feel uncomfortable. Use that rage to empower you to take on an issue that, you know, you thought was too much or, like, politically volatile things that are considered fringe issues. Yes. Because at the end of the day, our days on Earth are numbered and it is already stressful to put your name on a piece of.

[A]

Have you been talking to my dad? My dad talks like this, too. He does this all the time. He gets very.

[B]

Maybe it's a Muslim dad thing.

[A]

Yeah, my dad gets very, like, death is upon us. The angel of death is visiting us every day. And I'm like, good morning to you.

[B]

Yes, yes, it happens when it's supposed to happen. But, but I, I, I do believe that when you ask people to put their trust in you to represent them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You should take that seriously.

[A]

So recently, the Trump administration, they began bombing boats in the Caribbean. Again, sometimes I read stuff where I'm like, it sounds like an Onion article. Are these boats carrying drugs? Are they carrying Club Med booze cruisers? Who can say? But you introduced a War Powers Resolution in relation to this. What was it trying to achieve?

[B]

Yeah, well, one is that the, the President doesn't really have the power to just declare war.

[A]

I thought the President could declare war.

[B]

No, you need congressional approval to do so.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then the second problem with what he's doing is that drug cartels do not fit under the terrorism designation.

[A]

What do they fit under?

[B]

Drug lords.

[A]

Got it. Okay. Thugs, sure.

[B]

Traffickers. Like, there's all kinds of other.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But the, the, they, they cannot be designated as a forest foreign terrorist organization.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so what we are trying to accomplish in this resolution is to claw back the powers, but also to say you need to have an explanation on the laws that you broke and we need to hold you accountable. Because the other piece to the, the, the, the first boat that was struck is that we know that they were retreating. They were, they were turned around and they were going back. And so there was no imminent threat that we were facing to even begin to justify. So none of the actions of the President is justifiable in any kind of way.

[A]

Can you give me in. This is going to sound super reductive and simple, but let's have this. The US Government class.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would be the correct order of operations if an enemy to the United States were to impose some sort of sea threat?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How should this have gone down? So Pirates of the Caribbean was happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Allegedly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Something was happening.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Drugs?

[B]

No, I mean if we were attacked, like think Pearl Harbor.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like we're attacked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The President. Yes. Imminent threat.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

President has the right to attack back. Now, as soon as you do that, the clock starts. And so you have to come to Congress to brief us and ask for permission to wage war and for funding.

[A]

Correct? Essentially, yes.

[B]

But as the Commander in chief, you have the right to defend us from an enemy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And certainly preemptive attacks to stop us from being attacked. And also after we are attacked. Right. Like the Constitution doesn't tie the Commander in Chief's hand in defending our nation and its security. That's like their number one job. But if we are to commit our soldiers, our weaponry, our resources, Congress has that constitutional right to declare war.

[A]

You recently voted against the defense authorization bill. Congresswoman, My question is, if you had your way, what would America do with that $882 billion.

[B]

Yeah. I mean we're now spending nearly a trillion dollars. We could use $22 billion of that money to end homelessness. We could use, you know, $20 million. $20 billion to feed children in our schools and get rid of, have free school breakfast and lunch right now, I.

[A]

Hear all this, but yeah, those 750 military bases overseas aren't going to pay for themselves.

[B]

Yeah, but do we need them?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

But you think of like our, of military bases. Like China has one military base outside of their territory and that's in Djibouti next to ours. And so if you think about not just the permanent military bases that we have, we also have temporary military bases like pop up ones when we had one in Nigeria, in Niger, we have one in Somalia, you know, we have all of these temporary non permanent military bases. And so in reality we don't, we don't have to be the world's police, right? We can utilize some of these resources. And I tell people all the time like foreign policy is domestic policy because all the money that we waste on going to foreign wars on all of these military bases protecting the interest of so many other countries, that money can be used to take care of Americans.

[A]

You know, the president has said this, that he wants to be the no war president. Do you believe him?

[B]

I mean, just look at his record so far, right? The, the war in Gaza is still happening. We're still sending weapons to Israel to, to bomb and continue their genocide in Gaza. We're still sending weapons to Ukraine that there hasn't been peace negotiated there. We are still droning countries like Somalia. So those are still things where we are actively working either in concert with a country or ourselves inflicting pain.

[A]

I don't know if you guys have noticed by now, but Ya Boi loves to laugh. We love a haha a hehe a tee hee here at hmbk. But there's a dark side to all of this. Supposed laugh lines. That's right. Ironically, in an attempt to become more successful, I have made myself less boyishly handsome. Well, still handsome, but less boyish. That is why I was relieved when Oneskin offered to sponsor our podcast. If you haven't heard of Oneskin, they're the first skin longevity company. Oneskin products use their patented OS1 peptide. It's the first ingredient proven to target senescent cells, the root cause of wrinkles, crappiness and loss of elasticity. Unlike most products, it works down to the cellular level, treating the visible signs of skin aging at the source. This season, don't just moisturize. Support your skin at the cellular level with Oneskin. For a limited time, you could try OneSkin with 15% off using code H A S a N at Oneskin co. Again, that's 15% off OneSkin Co with code H A S A N. After your purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Try one skin today. Obviously, AI is a new, potentially confusing tool that is majorly trending right now. As a writer and creative, I didn't expect to use it that much. But hear me out. I recently learned how to actually put AI to work with today's sponsor, Zapier. Over 3.4 million companies use Zapier to streamline Their revenue, operations, marketing, sales, IT, IT, HR and more. Zapier's platform allows you to connect top AI models like ChatGPT to the apps that your team already uses, so you can add AI exactly where you need it. That could mean using AI to coach sales reps, resolve IT tickets or automatically enrich leads. I've got Zapier automating responses to my friends asking me to hang out with me every week. Annoying stuff. AI is way better than I am at saying no. I love that robots don't feel guilt. Join the 3.4 million companies already automating with Zapier and transform how you work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.com hasan that's Z A P I E r.com H-A-S A N I would say the American public, and I would certainly say young Americans are particularly anti war. I think the American public at large is done with the forever wars. But is there anything that could cause Congress to unilaterally across the board, be against or reduce military spending?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm the co chair of the Pentagon Reduction Caucus. You know, we are constantly introducing legislation to amendments to the NDAA to bring it, cut it by 5% up to 20%. We've, we've proposed, like I said, you know, I've done many amendments to close down many bases that we don't need and objectively are not really serving us in, in any kind of way. I think if you were to take a poll right now, majority of Americans, not just young people, young, old, in between, everybody is on board in, in making sure that the Pentagon is even slash half. This is also, this is also like one, one entity that has failed seven audits. They've gone after the Department of Education and it hadn't failed a single audit. So imagine if they were actually interested in waste, fraud and abuse, they would have started with the Pentagon. I think it is the weapons industry that is heavily lobbying Congress to keep this war machine going because it is to their benefit that we continue to spend this much money on defense.

[A]

Is there any way, you know, for me as an American, is there any way to reframe American might and glory that doesn't have to be associated with militarism? Is there a way that American might can be articulated through innovation, technology, engineering, things that are a net benefit not only to the country at large, but humanity at large? I mean, when I think of my dad's image of America when he immigrated in 1982, that certainly was his framework of what makes America so mighty. Silicon Valley, California Engineering, chemistry, physics and innovation.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I do believe all of those things.

[A]

Or are those subjects just too hard?

[B]

Yeah, but all those things are already things that make us mighty. Right. And I do think our military might is not comparable to any other country's military might. The question is, is it about the arsenal that we have? Is it about our men and women that are ready for combat? Or is it about all of these military bases that are really not being utilized in any kind of way in active war at the moment that are taking so many moms and dads away from their families as they serve in these military bases? You know, you have so many people who enlist who, you know, are leaving their children, their family members and are going abroad with, with no real mission. And so there is a way for us to consolidate. There is a way for us to keep our readiness level, to keep advancing the level of arsenal we need in case we have, you know, God forbid, World War three or whatever. But I don't think the, the amount of money that we are spending is necessary for us to have the level of readiness that, that we need. It's all based on, you know, I've had this conversation with both the military and, and colleagues about the reason that, you know, this, this Pentagon budget keeps going up. Many of our military leaders when we visit with them are like, we didn't, we didn't ask for this increase. Right. We don't need to manif the manufacturing of these types of weapons because today's world war or future wars are going to require something else. So we shouldn't be producing this kind of thing or whatever that might be. And the fact that they're not listened to and the Secretary of Defense give it, be a Democrat, Republican, whatever they've been in, whatever administration always asks for more. And then the White House asks for more than what, what even the Secretary asked for. And that is where the problem.

[A]

Is there a reasoning?

[B]

The reason is the lobbyists, okay, it's the lobbyists that talk about the job creation because the weapons are being produced in the United States, but they also talk about the money that comes in from us selling them. And oftentimes the cost benefit analysis isn't really there for the American people. But we haven't made an election issue. It needs to be an election issue. People should be asking their member of Congress when they're running for office, can I get a commitment from you that you're not going to vote for the NDA if it has these kind of things or if the budget is above a certain.

[A]

What is the NDA threshold?

[B]

The NEA is the bill that funds the Pentagon.

[A]

Oh, got it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I thought that was what Drake made girls sign when they hang out.

[B]

It's the national defense.

[A]

Oh, got it. One of the things you talk about in your memoir that I think is pretty interesting, but I want to follow up on. You talk about your time in a refugee camp in Kenya, and you say that you would literally have to cross barbed wire to watch television, and you have scars to prove it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just want to ask, what were the shows that you were willing to bleed for? Like, do you literally have scars where you're like, Family Matters?

[B]

It's. It's on my leg trying to jump over the bar area.

[A]

What show was it for?

[B]

It was Home Improvement. No, it was the Bollywood movie Dill.

[A]

That's a great movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is so Bollywood of you to, like, be bleeding for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very intense.

[B]

Very intense.

[A]

Do you have a favorite Bollywood movie?

[B]

Yes, my favorite. I mean, you're too young to know. I don't know. I'll know. But it's called. Oh, that was the first movie I watched.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And to this day, if I am feeling down or just too much is happening and I just, like, need to. Could be back to being, like, four or five.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I play that. And really, it's all giggles because it's just like, me and my siblings all just, like, watching it together.

[A]

So are you Sharuck person or Amir Khan?

[B]

Salma. I love. I love Salman.

[A]

Of course. Shout out to safe.

[B]

Yeah, I just. I just grew up on watching Bollywood movies.

[A]

Are Bollywood movies big with some, like, Somali culture in general or just. You grew up watching?

[B]

You know, I think outside of India, probably like, outside of maybe Asia, Africa might be the biggest market for Bollywood movies. Oh, cool. Yeah. And so, yeah, we. We grew up, like, watching. I mean. And again, like, I still, like, watch.

[A]

No, no, same. Still to this day.

[B]

Yeah. What's your favorite?

[A]

I mean, what are we talking? We have our classics. We have Gilwale. We have Kabi Kushi. Kabi gum.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

I cannot believe you. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, of course. You know, we also know the movie Silsila. Of course.

[B]

Yeah. Like that one, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can go into deep cuts that. My dad's into Sholae, obviously.

[B]

I was telling an auntie the other day that I love Dev Das, and then she's like, the old one or the new one?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And I think.

[A]

And it's crazy that the newer one was in the 90s. That's crazy.

[B]

I gave the wrong answer. Because. Because I watched both, and I like the newer one more.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I think it has Shahrukh Khan.

[A]

Yeah. Shan in it. Yeah.

[B]

She was really upset I got schooled.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nah. The new one goes so hard. Soundtrack goes.

[B]

I thought I was like. It is. It's not even. But again, I. I didn't. I didn't want to get yelled at more.

[A]

Was sh. Your first crush out of curiosity?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No.

[A]

So for my wife, if she's Indian, her first crush was Casper when he became a boy. I don't know if you remember the 1995 hit film Casper. Now Devon Sawa gets revealed as the boy, and then we reveal on them dancing together, and they're floating.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that's not terrifying at all. And that was an awakening moment for my wife.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

For my sister, it was definitely srk.

[B]

Okay. In. What about you?

[A]

For me, yeah. That was an awakening moment for my sister. Kajol's fire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Kajol.

[B]

For me.

[A]

Yeah. Ronnie goes hard in, too, but for me, it was Kajo's unibrow.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That was like.

[B]

What? Do you remember the movie you watched her first? Oh, you were that young.

[A]

I was that young. I was about 11. 10. 11, yeah. And I was like, damn. Because what really Kajo had.

[B]

I did catch in a movie theater.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It was the first one I went to go see in this movie theater. And like, you. You know, when you watch it at home, you don't really notice the break.

[A]

Yes. The intermission.

[B]

And I didn't realize.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That, like, in. In big. Because, I mean, I would watch it in, like, you know, these little shacks that I. You know, when we were in the refugee camp and stuff. But I didn't realize that there was, like, a whole thing, like, people would go to the bathroom, and it was like, Sambusa's being sold.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And it was just like. It was something else.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, so for me, what I loved about it is just, you know, that's very different than Western movies and American movies that do have it, but hardcore yearning. Will they, Won't they?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and the music.

[A]

The music.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what's carrying me through all of it is will they? Won't they?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you think?

[B]

And the family dynamics and the sacrifice.

[A]

The sacrifice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know? Will you die for me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Will you die for me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you all.

[B]

Will you choose your family? Right. Like, yeah.

[A]

Or will you get on the train with.

[B]

With me right now? Yeah.

[A]

And there's just something about that. Congresswoman, this was a lot of fun.

[B]

Yes, it was.

[A]

Thank you so much for joining us.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like Halle Berry on how to be a good partner during menopause or Mehdi Husson on the dumbing down of media clips you won't hear anywhere else. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out.