Podcast Summary

Podcast: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know

Episode: Is The Constitution Cooked? with Jill Lepore
Date: October 22, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, comedian Hasan Minhaj hosts historian and author Jill Lepore, delving into big questions around America's Constitution, democracy, and history. Together, they make crucial parallels between the 1930s and today, assess if the Constitution still works, explore the dangers of technocracy, and debate the role of technology and AI in modern democracy. The tone is witty, sharp, and deeply curious—true to Minhaj’s irreverent style and Lepore’s incisive scholarship.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Americans and Historical Deja Vu

• Are we reliving history, or too ignorant to see the past repeating?
  • Lepore argues Americans experience and feel history constantly, even if not academic experts:

    “I don't think it means… you have to have gone to college. Like, I think people have a real sense of change over time… that's just… it's like how we steer the boat.” (04:16)

  • Modern politics are peppered with historical arguments, e.g., “Make America Great Again,” reflecting perpetual use of the past to justify the present and future.
  • Minhaj asks if people experience “historical déjà vu.” Lepore says we are “flooded with historical arguments.” (04:54)

Parallels Between the 1930s and 2020s

• Comparisons between the rise of European fascism and today’s challenges:
  • Lepore connects the Nazi rise to modern authoritarian developments, highlighting propaganda tools and public compliance:

    “...what was at the time called the strategy of terror... broadcast effectively that they had already done it and just terrorize the population into giving up...” (07:04)

  • Strong analogies are drawn between the Nazi use of radio and today's social media influence. While tech changes, manipulation mechanisms persist.

Media and Propaganda: Radio to Social Media

• The democratizing and dystopian potential of media:
  • U.S. tried to use radio for democratic debate (e.g., “Town Meeting of the Air”), while Nazis weaponized radio for pure propaganda (07:36).
  • Social media’s pro-democracy potential remains unrealized:

    “I don't think any of the pro democracy technologies that we associate with social media have ever worked.” (09:29)

The Federal Forum Program: Real-world Democratic Practice

• 1930s forums fostered healthy civic debate
  • Funded by the government, hosted in public schools, topics (e.g., "Should the power of the Supreme Court be altered?") echo current issues (11:33).
  • Minhaj: “People had to put their shoes on and say that shit to your face.” (12:06)
  • Lepore: These forums renewed democratic habits and strengthened communities (12:34).

Political Violence and the Erosion of Debate

• January 6th vs. true debate:
  • Minhaj humorously compares Federal Forums to the January 6th riots but Lepore draws a sharp distinction:

    “To go and seek to overturn an election through violence is the opposite of the founding principle of democracy that we agree to lose.” (13:02)

Is America Descending Into Fascism?

• Use and misuse of the term:
  • Lepore distinguishes “fascism” from “authoritarianism,” warning that overuse dilutes meaning.
  • Outrageous presidential social-media posts signify “classic authoritarianism… wildly unconstitutional.” (13:53)
  • Both major parties at times undermine democracy for short-term gain (15:26).

The 1939 Nazi Rally at Madison Square Garden

• A “profoundly distressing” American event (16:46–18:10):
  • Nazis advertised their event as Americanism, not foreign fascism.
  • Lepore: “...selling Nazism as Americanism… is really most shocking… the repackaging.” (16:46)
  • Americans allowed the event under the First Amendment, but public outrage was significant.

The Constitution: Who Owns and Interprets It?

• Does anyone really uphold it anymore?
  • Lepore: “It’s very hard to know what the Constitution even is anymore. And who’s in charge of it?… We are.” (25:28)
  • Original constitutional innovations: written text, ratification by the people, amendability.
  • The U.S. hasn’t held a constitutional convention since 1787—lack of trust hampers such gatherings today (28:16).
  • Lepore analogizes constitutional conventions to jury trials: both rely on trust in everyday citizens to deliberate and decide for the common good (29:00).

Is the Constitution “Cooked”?

• Minhaj list democratic norms seemingly eroding: abortion, LGBTQ protections, birthright citizenship, church-state separation (31:16).
• Lepore stays hopeful:

  “...the Constitution lives in the hearts and the minds of the American people. Like, we have the Constitution we want. If it's being trampled on, it's up to us to stop that.” (32:08)

The Supreme Court and Constitutional Interpretation

• Minhaj jokes that Justice Thomas is a “constitutional Wahhabist.” (32:34)
• Lepore: The Supreme Court’s self-appointed role as final interpreter is relatively recent and shaped by historical trends (33:03).

Tech Oligarchs, Manifestos, and AI Presidents

• Debate over the legitimacy and danger of “manifestos” vs. constitutions:

  • Minhaj: “Isn’t a manifesto basically a constitution, but with more cocaine?” (33:41)
  • Lepore: “A manifesto is the opposite of constitutionalism. It’s one man’s determination of how we all should live.” (34:17)
  • She criticizes how media uncritically glorifies tech founders while they fail to deliver on utopian promises (35:12).

• Can AI govern us?

  • Lepore rebuts Altman’s and Rogan’s fantasy of an AI president:

    “It's not awesome... It's like the very opposite of what we believe. Right. That we do actually prefer humans to machines…” (41:46)

  • She warns that we’re already ceding public discourse to corporate bots and algorithms, threatening the core of self-government (43:31).

Elon Musk, Technocracy, and Family Influence

• Musk as a case study in Silicon Valley attitudes:

  • Lepore details Musk’s technocratic lineage:

    “His [maternal] grandfather... was the national leader of the technocracy movement in Canada… They did not believe in democracy… democracy should be replaced by engineers making all the decisions.” (47:44)

  • Family also tied to antisemitic and conspiratorial movements. Lepore resists drawing direct causal links but sees echoes in today’s tech scene.

• Tech billionaires’ fascination with apocalypse:

  • They straddle the line between “building the future” and preparing to escape it—often more invested in sci-fi than reality.

    “They really do live in a world of a science fiction imaginary… the Terminator storyline is kind of an inevitability.” (50:55–51:09)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On media’s intimate power:
  Jill Lepore: “When radio was new… you have this device in your kitchen… voices are coming in and you don’t respond… The power of persuasion that that made available was extraordinary." (07:36)
• On modern analogs to fascism:
  Lepore: “Fascism becomes overused when both sides use it as a term of ready opprobrium, and then it loses its power...” (13:53)
• On upholding democracy:
  Lepore: “To go and seek to overturn an election through violence is the opposite of the founding principle of democracy that we agree to lose.” (13:02)
• On the Constitution’s ownership:
  Lepore: “Who is in charge of it? We are. That’s the whole… point of a written Constitution.” (25:28)
• On the illusion of tech founder utopianism:
  Lepore: “A manifesto is the opposite of constitutionalism. It's one man's determination of how we all should live.” (34:17)
• On AI presidents:
  Jill Lepore (in response to Altman's vision): “It’s not awesome… That’s actually tyranny… Did you people not watch any science fiction from the 90s?” (41:46)
• On tech billionaires’ future panic:
  Lepore: "They really do live in a world of a science fiction imaginary… they know they're actually bringing it [apocalypse] on, so they kind of want to travel forward in time to make sure they have an escape route." (51:09)

Important Timestamps

• 02:17: Batman and Trump: Pop culture meets politics
• 04:10–06:13: Americans and historical consciousness
• 07:04–09:29: Propaganda, radio, and technology parallels
• 11:33: Federal Forum Program and its topics
• 13:02: January 6th riot as “the opposite of debate”
• 16:46–18:10: 1939 Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden
• 25:28: Constitution ownership and where power resides
• 29:00: Jury duty and the analogy to constitutional conventions
• 31:16: "Is the Constitution cooked?"
• 32:08: Lepore’s hopefulness about upholding the Constitution
• 33:41–34:17: Manifestos vs. constitutions
• 41:46: The dangers of an “AI president”
• 47:44: Musk’s technocratic and conspiratorial family legacy
• 51:09: Tech elites’ “science fiction imaginary”

Tone and Style

Hasan Minhaj brings humor, irreverence, and sharp curiosity, while Jill Lepore grounds the discussion in deep historical knowledge and candid analysis. Their rapport is playful, yet the stakes feel urgent and real.

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode offers a deep, nuanced, and entertaining look at the health of American democracy—using history as a lens, critiquing the cult of tech founders, and warning against both authoritarian drift and technological utopianism. Jill Lepore’s scholarship and wit shine, making even the weightiest topics accessible and relevant. If you want to understand whether America’s “rulebook” is still fit for purpose, and what history can (and can’t) teach us about the future, this episode is essential.