Neil deGrasse Tyson is Not Impressed With Your Alien Photos

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "PROOF THAT ALIENS ARE REAL!!! (*my theory)"

Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know — with Neil deGrasse Tyson

Release Date: March 4, 2026
Host: Hasan Minhaj (186k Films)
Guest: Neil deGrasse Tyson, Astrophysicist & Author

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OVERVIEW

This episode dives into humanity's fascination with aliens, UFOs (now UAPs), the limits of scientific evidence, humanity’s place in the universe, and what motivates large-scale exploration. Hasan Minhaj, with humor and relentless curiosity, wrangles Neil deGrasse Tyson into a wide-ranging conversation touching science, culture, psychology, and policy. Throughout, Neil challenges common myths about extraterrestrials and reflects on science's impact on society, while punching up the gravity of critical thinking in an era of uncertainty.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS AND INSIGHTS

1. Space, Perspective & Humanity

• The Apollo Effect: Tyson recalls how going to the Moon changed humanity’s self-image:
  • "We went to the Moon to explore the moon and looked over our shoulder and we discovered Earth for the first time. Oceans, land, clouds, no color coded countries." (Neil deGrasse Tyson, 02:13)
  • Color-coding maps is, in his view, training in division—space travel counterbalances this by enabling broader perspective.

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2. UFOs, UAPs & Eyewitness Testimony

• What Does "Unidentified" Really Mean?

  • “Remember what the U stands for.” (Neil, 05:06)
  • "You don't know what it is, so you can't not know what it is and then in the next sentence, declare you know what it is." (Neil, 05:09)

• Science Values the Unknown and Mystery:

  • Tyson paraphrases Rainer Maria Rilke: "Be at peace with all that stirs within your heart, learn to love the questions that themselves..." (Neil, 05:36)
  • He emphasizes that unknowns should prompt deeper questioning, not instant conclusions.

• Low Bar for Scientific Evidence:

  • “The lowest form of evidence in the court of science is eyewitness testimony.” (Neil, repeated at 03:18 and 07:19)
  • He sharply contrasts blurry cellphone videos and testimony with the detailed imagery from telescopes spanning the early universe: "You're really gonna tell me your best evidence for visiting aliens is a fuzzy tic tac on monochromatic screen?" (Neil, 06:16)

• Why No Good Alien Photos?

  • With 6 billion smartphones, millions airborne at any moment, and billions of daily uploads, Tyson notes the utter lack of high-res alien imagery is telling. He jokes, “Bring the alien into Times Square. Into Times Square? Into Manhattan?” (Hasan/Neil, 08:45)

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3. Pop Culture, Aliens, and Our Reflection

• Smart/Dumb, Hostile/Peaceful Alien Matrix:
  • Minhaj and Tyson rank pop culture aliens (like “Predator,” E.T.) on axes of intellect and attitude (13:44–16:09).
  • Tyson points out hostile alien portrayals mirror colonial conquest—"All portrayals of hostile aliens are mirrors to ourselves." (Neil, 16:04)
  • Minhaj connects this analysis to “The Walking Dead”: “The aliens are a reflection of the worst of us.” (Hasan, 17:08)

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4. Human Psychology, God, and “Aliens of the Gaps”

• Humanity Fills Gaps with the Supernatural:

  • Historically, lack of knowledge led people to insert “God” in gaps; now, people increasingly insert “aliens.” (Neil, 17:49–18:34)
  • Tyson introduces the “Aliens of our Ignorance” concept: “It’s intellectually lazy to just go to aliens and have that explain what you don’t know.” (Neil, 18:48)

• Personal Belief vs. Societal Impact:

  • Tyson draws a line between personal spirituality and public policy: “Your right to worship is protected constitutionally… but the Constitution doesn’t say you have a right to coerce other people…” (Neil, 20:01–21:43)

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5. Science Literacy & Policy

• Greatest Fear:

  • "The level of profound science illiteracy in people who have control over laws and legislation... That is a recipe for the unraveling of an informed democracy." (Neil, 20:01)

• The Roots of Science Policy:

  • Discussion of the separation of church and state in U.S. governance and origins of science institutions (21:43–22:53, 49:13–54:09).

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6. Scientific Q&A as “Merlin”

• Several real (and delightfully odd) questions from kids and listeners are fielded in a whimsical "Merlin" persona, with a Sorting Hat added in post (23:36–34:09).

  • Why is the North Pole warmer than the South Pole?

    • No land at North Pole; ocean water radiates heat; Earth's elliptical orbit means southern winter is slightly farther from the sun (24:26).

  • Black Holes & Spaghettification:

    • On entering a black hole: “You will not survive... gravity will create quite a calamity when you’re stretched head to toe... are you sure you want to go?” (Neil as Merlin, 27:08)

  • Turtles, Butts, and Bad Design:

    • “We have an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system. No engineer would design that.” (Neil, 28:32)

  • Time Dilation:

    • Explains GPS clocks must be corrected for time distortion due to weaker gravity above Earth (29:16–30:11).

  • Music in Space:

    • “In space, no one can hear you scream… because there's no medium to transmit the pressure waves which we otherwise call sound.” (Neil, 30:30)

  • Why does the moon seem to follow our car?

    • Because it's so far away, its apparent motion is tiny compared to nearby objects (32:39–33:47).

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7. Renewable Energy, Progress, and Incentives

• Sun as an Energy Source:

  • Yes, solar could power enormous demands—but reliable energy storage and better infrastructure are the true barriers (39:27–41:43).
  • Storage innovations, like using solar to elevate heavy weights for gravitational potential, present neat solutions (41:27).

• Economic & Political Drivers:

  • The three big drivers of massive human undertakings: existential threat (“I don’t want to die”), praise of royalty/deity, or profit (“I don’t want to die poor”) (Neil, 67:09–67:59).
  • “Where money flows, change goes.” (Hasan, 59:00)
  • “I think this is America. We’re a capitalist democracy. Money matters only and ever does money matter.” (Neil, 56:47)

• Private vs. Public Sector Roles:

  • Private enterprise focuses on what earns money in the near term (quarterly/annual reports); NASA and public agencies can take longer-term, riskier bets with transformational effects (72:13–72:21).

  • Why did it take so long for solar to scale?

    • Cheap oil, government-built infrastructure, and lack of energy storage all played a role (51:49–54:09).

• Cultural Shifts & Policy:

  • Policy changes from “science illiteracy” are hazardous.
  • “Vote for scientifically literate people. What else can I say? We're a democracy.” (Neil, 62:39)

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8. Multi-Planetary Humanity: Myth vs. Reality

• Tyson is skeptical of major colonization of Mars or other planets unless driven by existential threat, profit, or faith/royalty:

  • “Terraforming Mars and shipping a billion people there…is more than the effort to deflect the asteroid.” (Neil, 69:33)
  • “If you want to go to Mars, do it because it’s fun… but to justify it by saying we need to be a two planet species has no actual foundation.” (Neil, 70:20)

• Should we save Earth or explore space?

  • False dichotomy—space spending is a tiny fraction of government budgets. “Why is everything a choice?” (Neil, 70:44)
  • "4/10 of 1 penny on your tax dollar." (Neil, 70:35)

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9. Impact of Space on Society & Earth

• Unexpected Benefits:

  • Space missions—especially Apollo—shifted consciousness and birthed the modern environmental movement:

    • “We went to the Moon… and we discovered Earth for the first time as only nature would reveal it to us… The Apollo missions changed that.” (Neil, 74:57)

  • Innovations like miniaturized electronics for NASA have changed daily life (73:04).

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 02:13 | “We went to the Moon... and we discovered Earth for the first time. Oceans, land, clouds, no color coded countries.” | Neil | | 05:09 | “You don't know what it is, so you can't not know what it is and then... declare you know what it is.” | Neil | | 07:19 | “The lowest form of evidence in the court of science is eyewitness testimony.” | Neil | | 16:04 | “All portrayals of hostile aliens are mirrors to ourselves.” | Neil | | 18:48 | “It's intellectually lazy to just go to aliens and have that explain what you don't know.” | Neil | | 20:01 | "The level of profound science illiteracy in people who have control over laws and legislation... That is a recipe for the unraveling of an informed democracy." | Neil | | 24:26 | "There's no land near the North Pole. It's just a spot on a floating ice sheet in the Arctic Ocean..." | Neil as Merlin | | 27:08 | "You will not survive... gravity will create quite a calamity when you're stretched head to toe..." | Neil as Merlin | | 28:32 | "We have an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system. No engineer would design that." | Neil | | 30:30 | "In space, no one can hear you scream… because there's no medium to transmit... sound." | Neil | | 39:27 | "Most of the solar power just hits the earth and radiates back… But there's not only the sun as a source of power..." | Neil | | 59:00 | "Where money flows, change goes." | Hasan | | 67:09 | “They all have only three common drivers...I don’t want to die, praise of royality/deity, I don’t want to die poor.” | Neil | | 70:44 | "Why is it a choice? Why don't we do both? Next question." | Neil |

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• 02:13 – The Apollo effect and our perspective of Earth
• 05:09 – UAPs/UFOs: Why "unidentified" means exactly that
• 07:19/16:04 – On eyewitness testimony and pop culture’s mirror
• 23:36–34:09 – Q&A as "Merlin" with kid questions
• 39:27 – The realities and potential of solar power
• 67:09 – Three drivers of civilization’s biggest projects
• 70:44 – Should we save Earth or explore space?
• 74:57 – How Apollo shifted planetary consciousness (Earthrise)

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THEMES & TONE

This episode is fast, irreverent, and deeply curious. Minhaj keeps the tone light and probing, using pop culture as an entry point to deeper questions, while Tyson’s answers blend wit, gravity, and a near-constant nudge toward scientific humility and skepticism. The pair continually tie science and policy, inviting listeners to consider the real motivations and impacts behind humanity’s biggest questions—and fears.

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FINAL TAKEAWAYS

• There's no credible proof that aliens are visiting us: All extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, and nothing currently clears that bar.
• Our fears about aliens mostly reflect our anxieties about ourselves and our history.
• Science is a method for facing the unknown—don’t rush to fill in gaps with mythology or wishful thinking.
• The best way to drive societal progress? Cultivate scientific literacy, understand how money and politics shape choices, and hold onto our curiosity ('stay a kid at heart').
• Many of the benefits of exploration—like the unity and environmental awareness that came from Apollo—are unpredictable but profound.

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Transcript

[Hasan Minhaj]

ICE recently admitted to detaining immigrant children longer than the recommended limit. This past August to September, ice held about 400 children for over 20 days. Advocates reported conditions such as contaminated food, lack of medical care, and insufficient legal counsel. I read about this nightmare on Ground News, which is today's sponsor. Ground News shows a breakdown of publications reporting on a story, including a factuality score in which way each publisher tends to lean politically. It is not about completely eliminating bias here, folks. It's about trying to make you aware of the potential biases of different publications so you can consider them as you analyze an event or the issue. I was at least glad to see that 98% of the 69 publications reporting on this story were rated high factuality because the last thing we need is more misinformation on this issue. Use the link in the description or go to groundnews.com hustle to get 40% off the ground News Vantage plan, the same one that we use right here on HMDK. My discount makes it just 5 bucks a month for unlimited access. Let's cut through the noise [e-mail] Husan March can start to feel a bit dreary, especially when you're trying to stay healthy and on budget. I know. Wah wah. I'm cold, I'm hangry and I don't want to cook anymore. So I decided Hassan, it is time to switch things up. Thankfully I have found a way to spice up my routine with a one stop shop. I'm talking about Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods has hella options, always with clean ingredients. So now I'm expanding my meal rotation without compromising my health. I recently discovered the ready to cook chicken and veggie kebabs you don't even have to grill. You can just chuck them in the oven and forget about them. Say less. Grab some 365 hummus and boom. It's a Mediterranean feast. Speaking of the 365 brand, they have been the powerhouse behind Bina and I's Taco Nights. They have the best rice, beans and chunky salsas. Bonus points if you check their frozen foods aisle for their taquitos. Instant Taco Night for Less. But my new favorite way to pick out dinner is by wandering around the Whole Foods looking for the yellow signs. These highlight sales and everyday low priced items, always with the same high quality. Of course. It's kind of like a scavenger hunt. Save on regional flavors at Whole Foods Market and thank you Whole Foods for sponsoring the show. Lemonade

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

we went to the Moon to explore the moon and looked over our shoulder and we discovered Earth for the first time. Oceans, land, clouds, no color coded countries. In my cynical old age, I. I'm reflecting back, realizing that the point of that was to tell us who our enemies were and who our friends were geopolitically. Why else are you gonna take something as beautiful as a planet and color code it and cut it up and teach that to little children? What's that about? Space changed that. NASA changed that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I always love talking to Neil Degrasse Tyson because he never gets sucked into the political moment of today. He, he always brings it back to big ideas. Zoom out, see the big picture. And I think that's beautiful because these days it's easy for our perspective to shrink down to the size of a cell phone, which makes it refreshing. You know what I'm going to say. It's crucial to talk to someone whose perspective incorporates all of space in time. So I take every chance I get to talk to Neil because my man is constantly dropping bars.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Our worst nightmare is that we meet aliens who are just like us. It's not good enough to be right. You also have be effective. The lowest form of evidence in the court of science is eyewitness testimony. Clean up, clean up everybody. Do your share. Clean up, everybody everywhere. Yeah, of course. Yeah, Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I hung out with chat NDT to talk about UFOs, horoscopes and to basically play tangent traffic cop because this convo went everywhere.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You ready for this?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Talk to me.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It'll take me three minutes. No, I have to say something else.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Go ahead.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I forgot to mention by the way. Yes, by the way. By the way. Oh, by the way. And by the way. Oh, by the way. So, so, so. Oh, by the way. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

In honor of Neil's book Just Visiting this Planet, he took a few questions from real kids in character as Merlin and we gave him a hat in post because putting a hat on people in post is very funny. It's a classic bit. Just admit it, it's hilarious. Hurry. Right away. No delays are. Let's get serious.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Let's get serious.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's talk about what everyone is talking about on the Internet, which is weird health advice or UFOs.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Weird health advice given by people who have no medical training.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Of course.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes. Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Brought to you by Google. Recently, the House Oversight Committee held hearings about unidentified anomalous phenomena.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm talking about UAPs.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You got it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Not to be confused with UTIs. What is your assessment of all this UAP stuff?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Do you have a More specific question.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, there's floating orbs. There's the floating triangles. What is going on?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Just remember what the U stands for. What does it stand for?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Unidentified.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We're done here. You don't know what it is, so you can't not know what it is. And then in the next sentence, declare you know what it is. You just say you don't know what it is. In science, we celebrate the unknown. The German poet Rainer Maria Rilke in his book Letters to a Young Poet. I'm going to mangle it a little bit. I'm not a poem memorizer, so forgive me, but go something like, be at peace with all that stirs within your heart. Learn to love the questions that themselves.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

As a scientist, we hack our way to the edge of what is known. Peer out into the unknown. That's what attracts us.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Are you a Sufi saint? So you're a whirling dervish.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

When we find something that's unknown, it's reason to do more research. It's not reason to arrive at a conclusion that you are sure is true. Right after you just said it's unknown.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So that's my first comment.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Second. Have you seen images taken by the James Webb Space Telescope?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, I haven't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Highly detailed images of gas clouds thousands of light years away. Images of galaxies at the beginning of the universe. And you can zoom into them. We can do all of this across the universe with our greatest telescopes. And you're really gonna tell me that your best evidence for visiting aliens is a fuzzy tic tac on monochromatic screen taken in restricted airspace by a military pilot in our own fricking atmosphere? That's your best image? Like, really? Okay, now we have AI making videos. It's gonna be hard to use a video as evidence. So what we really need, Fork up the alien. Until then, we're steeped in wishful thinking. Wishful thinking that what you see and don't know and don't recognize is a visiting alien from outer space.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's listen to witness testimony.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Can we take a look? Let's listen to the hearing. This is, what I'm saying, is funded by our scholars.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Two more things. Okay, before you go to this thing,

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm going to C span.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay? This is a real thing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Look, I know it looks like it was recorded on vhs, but this is a real network.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The lowest form of evidence in the court of science is eyewitness testimony. And not only do scientists know this, psychologists know this, but we are somehow trained from TV or Wherever else. That I need a witness in the courtroom.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Somehow the witness has all the answers and has the precision of objective truths in their delivery. We know that that's not the case. Right. A person isn't lying if they don't know they're lying. Point is, the number of people who have seen UFOs is huge. I don't have a problem with that. Keep reporting it. Go right ahead. Okay. I'm waiting for someone to bring forth an alien. Let me say it another way, okay? If we were being visited by aliens from space.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

When we have 6 billion smartphones in the world capable of taking high resolution photos and videos. Sure. And billions of photos are uplifted to the Internet every day. Millions of hours of video. We have a million people airborne at any given moment with a window looking out into the atmosphere. Okay. And nobody has a high resolution image of either a flying craft or ufo or an alien itself. So I need you to bring the alien into town. Into town? Into Times Square.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Into Times Square. You want it in Manhattan.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But maybe they're already there, Neil. Sorry, not Times Square. We need a place that does not attract crazy people.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Neil, I'll do you one better. I'll get you evidence in Midtown. Have you heard of Enigma? The app called Enigma?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, but one of the first computers was Enigma was called Enigma.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, this app is called Enigma, and it's basically Yelp for UFOs. I want to get your thoughts about UFOs that have been spotted right here in Manhattan. Please bring up bright light hovering erratic above Times Square. Per your request.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, I want the alien, not the lights. But go on. Hang on, love. Times Square.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Taking picture out of car window. Nyc. And look at photos afterwards in weird light, in multiple photos, cannot make out what they were. Many of the same sightings have been reported on this site. Exclamation point. Unexplained exclamation point. No, this is not a tweet from Donald Trump on Truth Social. This was uploaded. And there's been two other witnesses.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So where's the bright light?

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is above Times Square. Computer, enhance. Computer, enhance. Computer, enhance.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I can see the aliens because we agreed earlier in our conversation that they're naturally fuzzy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Hmm. So you're making fun of me.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I don't know what that is. We should, you know, get a net and bring it in.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Figure out how to do that. That's what a scientist would do.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You're making fun of this upload because it's in 240p. Computer, please pull up video Evidence, please. This is large silver disc cover.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Do you have to say please twice to the computer?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I try to be nice to both animate and inanimate objects.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, got it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Play video. Computer, How fast this thing is going?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That looks like a reflection internal to the camera. Because every time the camera jiggles, it jiggles. When the camera's stationary, it's not moving. So, yeah, I remain. You see that? See how it's moving with the camera?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Incredibly fast. That's the terrifying.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But when the camera's not moving, it's not moving. So that looks like an internal reflection to the lens.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You're saying there's a lens there?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah. I've been doing photography my whole life, like since I was 11. And there's a lot of photographic artifacts. Artifacts as in things that don't belong in the photo. That the lens, the film back then film. But even CCD chips, there are defects there. So things that can happen in the camera. And if you don't know that, then you'll try to interpret that as something that's actually in your image. There are surely other cases that I can't explain so trivially as that, but that one is pretty obvious. That's. You move the camera thing, you do it again. Camera stationary, just sits there. I'm just saying I need better evidence.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, then let's listen to the House Oversight Committee. Let's take a look.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And you want me to use their eyewitness testimonies evidence. My team was on standby for weather and I returned to my barracks on base. And at approximately 0130, I saw an approximately 100 foot equilateral triangle take off from near the NASA hangar on the base. The craft interfere with my telephone, did not have any sound, and the material it was made of appeared fluid or dynamic. I was under this triangular craft for a few minutes, and then it rapidly ascended to commercial jet level in seconds, displaying zero kinetic disturbance, sound or wind displacement. Cool.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What do you make of that?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's a mystery. Okay, it's a mystery. By the way, it would be helpful if we had other measurements of that object that could verify that it actually went to aircraft level, that it was actually the size that he says. These are things that typically we will misinterpret. It's very hard to judge the distance to something for which you have no prior understanding of what it is. An airplane, you know, if it's tiny, it's far away. If it's big, it's close up. We know how big airplanes are.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So Your brain can. Can assess that distance.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

With some reliability. Yes. But if he's seeing a big old triangle, that's. That's weird.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How Liquidy and liquidy.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right. Exactly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And it messed with this.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He says to. To aircraft heights. I'm curious how he made that measurement, just as an example. It'd be nice to have more data surrounding that observation so that we don't have to just listen to his testimony. We just look at data rather than listen to people report what they think they saw.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Look, I think there's both a scientific analysis here, but there's also a psychological analysis here. But human beings have a deep fascination with aliens vis a vis how advanced they are and how friendly they are.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You say vis a vis?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Really? Okay, that's very.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's take a look at this on the X and Y axis because I really broke this down. Oh, let's throw this down. Okay. So the aliens here can either be very dumb, too smart, to very peaceful, to hostile. Everything that we've seen in pop culture is somewhere along this line.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, in movies other than ET they're all smart and hostile. So you put a dot up in the upper corner.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Precisely. I call that predator. Hostile and smart. Boom. Predator.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Predator. Predator. As shown in the film series. Correct. Yes. But it bleeds.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So we can kill it. That was perhaps the most brilliant line ever uttered in a science fiction film, because you don't know if you have any effect on it at all.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Correct.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If it bleeds, we can kill it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We can kill it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Versus the Chupacabra Djinn, ghosts and other otherworldly things.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I forgot all about the two. That's a South American creature.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That no one's seen but everyone believes is there.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You know, let me just tell you how I feel about the undead. I do respect them, I acknowledge them, and I stay away. One of the guests that they wanted to have come on the show said they were going to do a tarot card reading. I said, I don't with that shit.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's spooky. Tarot card readings are spooky.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Precisely. Okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

By the way.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

YouTube called me up and asked me if I wanted to be a tarot card, and I agreed. There are multiple tarot cards that refer to cosmic things. We designed one with me in it. But the catch was, on the other side were YouTube links to content that I and my podcast have put online. You get in through the tarot card.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So you wanted to be the pipeline from the fringe to silence.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly. Because how else am I gonna reach you if you're a tarot card person and don't otherwise have access to science. Right. So somewhere on the line, you can find a tarot card with me. Okay, so I'm not totally fearsome of them, but I do own a few sats, and they're of course stored in silk. You know, you have to. You know the rituals behind you. If we were in my office, I'd reach for it and I'd.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Don't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Please don't.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Please don't, please don't, please don't. Again, it's a polite.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We'll get you on my podcast. Can I get you on my. I'll be on your podcast four times in the.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Twice.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Twice, Twice, Twice.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Hard evidence. Let's do it. Hard evidence, please. So let's go back to smart and hostile. We got predator. We have peaceful and smart.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Shouldn't it be lines getting plotted here or dots?

[Hasan Minhaj]

We'll do that in post.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, oh, I got it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So then we have hostile and dumb, and that's small, mean hamsters. Then we have peaceful and dumb, and those are just regular hamsters. Where do you think we are? If the aliens were to come visit,

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

what do I think the aliens would be? Or what are we to the aliens?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Both.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. All of our tropes regarding hostile aliens.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Are not based on any actual knowledge. They're instead based on actual knowledge how we know we would behave in the presence of a civilization with lesser technology than ourselves. So I have no recourse but to declare that all portrayals of hostile aliens are mirrors to ourselves.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It really is like AI, These large language models and social media is a reflection of ourselves.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

For all we know, aliens are the most peaceful things ever. But we are violent against other members of our own species if we have higher technology than they do. The history of exploration and colonization has shown either they are exterminated, enslaved, somehow reduced to lesser personhood than those who did the conquering. Our worst nightmare is that we meet aliens who are just like us.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wow, that's a whole new way to look at alien movies. Because the aliens are a reflection of the worst of us. I felt that way about the Walking Dead, which was human beings descending into their worst behaviors and being worse than the zombies themselves.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, wait a minute. Wait. Oh. Got you. I mean, the non zombie people. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

As you continue to watch the Walking Dead.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Because the people.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The people are actually acting worse than the zombies.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're losing civilization.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because what is civilization if not a set of rules and regulations to prevent us from behaving how we otherwise would without it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So is this whole alien thing just a call for mental health services or what is this really about according to you, a scientist?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But historically, when we encountered something that science has yet to explain, people say, oh, God is doing it. Yes, God is there. Recently I've been asked what was around before the Big Bang. I said, I don't know. We've got top people working on something. Had to be there. I said, I don't know. God had. Okay, so I get it, all right? And that's a long tradition of people doing so. But if your understanding of God in however you perceive him or it to be, is someone who lurks where science has yet to tread, then God to you is an ever shrinking pocket of scientific ignorance. Philosophers call that God of the gaps. So the modern version of that is alien of the gaps, except I prefer the assonance. So I would say aliens of our ignorance. Something you don't quite understand. Aliens. How they build the pyramids, Aliens. Where those lines come from in the Nazca plains in Peru. Aliens. It's intellectually lazy to just go to aliens and have that explain what you don't know. It's much harder to ask deeper and more probing questions about how to get further data, further evidence. If you want to arrive at that conclusion.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is just me personally. To me, I approach God as the chasm of understanding of what I don't even understand and my humility to all of that and the feeling, and this is just a feeling that I'm connected to all of these things in some way, shape or form.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Was that a question?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is that wrong?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no. I'm not telling people how to worship. That's not my role in this world. I'm an educator. And you want to learn objective truths about the world? Go ahead. And if to you. So if that's your relationship to a spirit entity, I don't have a problem with that. But if, for example, if your relationship to a spirit entity has you say that the universe was made in six days and that Earth is flat. Plenty of jobs for you in this world. I just don't want you to run NASA ever.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I never tell anybody what they should. I just offer information. And then you decide what scares you? What scares me most?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The level of profound science illiteracy in people who have control over laws and legislation of the land. That scares me the most. Because that is a recipe for the unraveling of an informed democracy. And if that permeates around the world, it could dismantle civilization. And I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that because the methods and tools of science are the way, it's the best way we've ever come up with as humans to establish what is objectively true in the world. And while you're establishing what is objectively true, you also end up establishing what is objectively false. If people have different belief systems, that's fine in a country that protects that. But if you have a belief system that I don't have and you rise to power over laws and create a law based on your belief system, that is a recipe for disaster. That is a recipe for the ending of the American system of governance. Your right to worship is protected constitutionally. But the Constitution doesn't say you also have a right to coerce other people by making laws forcing them to, to have your same religion and your same religious rituals. The day that happens, we become a theocracy. And that is not what the founding fathers ever wanted. And that's why the word God does not appear in our Constitution. It appears once in a very minor way when they dated and signed the Constitution in the year of our Lord 1789. In a very tiny minor way. It's not in the Constitution. Controversial in the day. You know why you don't put God in the Constitution?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why is that? That means they were all Freemasons.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It means nobody can make a law about someone's God. It was the most brilliant. It assures constitutionally that the government cannot establish a religion because God is not in the Constitution at all. God, Jesus, no mention of it at all. Do you want to know where God appears?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure. Oh, I mean obviously when you pledge allegiance. I always thought that was funny, you know, you would go, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, One nation under God, indivisible. I was like, we're very divisible.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That was added in the 1950s, the under God part, Pledge of Allegiance. There was during the Cold War where we wanted to establish that we are a God fearing nation against these communist atheists over there in the Soviet Union. So that's when we added in God we trust in our currency, in the paper currency.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That was in the 50s.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. 56, 57, 58, around there. It's when they added In God we trust in the back of the, the House of Representatives, it's up on the wall. That's a latter day declaration that we are God fearing people. That does not derive from the Constitution.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's Talk about your new book, please. You have a brand new book.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's spanking brand new.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Spanking brand new. Called Just Visiting this Further Scientific Adventures of Merlin from Omniscient.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And it's got iridescent foil on the COVID so you can move that around. And thanks for talking about the book. Of course.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now you as Merlin.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That was a pen name I had for a column that I wrote for

[Hasan Minhaj]

15 years, going back to 1982.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Going back, going back.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What is the purpose of the Merlin character?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, wasn't answering scientific questions already enough?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes, but I wanted to have fun. Part of it was selfish. I don't want to just answer questions. I want to have fun answering questions. And I want the person reading them to have fun with me. Because the whole book is just Q and A asked by real people, but answered by this fictional character from Andromeda.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So, look, I'm gonna ask you questions from the book. You're gonna answer as Merlin. But if you're gonna answer as Merlin, you're gonna need a Merlin hat. So what do you want? We can add this in post. Do you want a top hat? Do you want a fedora? Do you want a sorting hat? Or do you want one of those old school just Dumbledore joints?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Sorting hats. Why not a sorting hat?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sorting hat.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Let's do it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Here we go. First question of the book is from Hank Young. Dear Merlin, how come the North Pole is warmer than the South Pole?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, give me the book and I'll be Merlin for you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Jesus. Okay, okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Two reasons. As the real Santa knows, there is no land at the North Pole. It is just. I can't read this without my glasses.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So hold on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

By the way, you're gonna still have, by the way, your sorting hat on again.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's gonna be in.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It'll be there in post.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yep. There's no land near the North Pole. It's just a spot on a floating ice sheet in the Arctic Ocean. Heat stored in the ocean over the summer months slowly reradiates to the ice and air during the winter months. Conversely, the South Pole is centrally located in the Antarctic continent. Far away from the Antarctic Ocean, Earth is about 3% farther from the sun during the Antarctic winter July than during the Antarctic summer in January. When combined, these two effects provide a mid winter South Pole temperature of about -100 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yikes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

While a typical midwinter North Pole temperature is a toasty minus 40. So here's the thing, Merlin, who by the way is friends with Santa Claus. We talk about the future of climate change and if we lose all the polar ice caps, Santa, he's gonna be in a tank shirt.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, totally. Santa's gonna be in Florida.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's a different Santa than what anyone has drawn.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Look, Merlin, there's a lot of people that know a lot more than me and they have sent in some questions for you. So these are some of our smartest listeners and viewers sending you, Merlin, some questions. Let's take a look at this.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Bring it in. Why a meteor come. How did a meteor come and hit NASA? And is there going to be another one? Cool.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you hate to give them the bad news?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's not that the meteors come to hit us, that's true. But what's happening more than that is Earth is plowing through a debris field that remains ever since the formation of the solar system. So it's not just the meteor coming to hit us, it's we and the meteor hitting each other. And yes, Earth plows through several hundred tons of meteors a day. Most of them are small, they burn up. And you see them as shooting stars. Big ones will make it through. They'll make a crater. The really biggest ones will render us extinct. We want to make sure we can deflect these in the future so we don't face the same fate as the dinosaurs.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now, how do we help this kid sleep at night?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He asked the question. He better deal with the answer I give. You're the one who needs help going to sleep at night.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, I do. Let's go to the next question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So what happens when you go inside a black hole? Do you just go like, whoa, whoa. Or like, does anybody come back from black hole? Are black holes even real?

[Hasan Minhaj]

So this is a, this is a multi part one. But let's start with the big idea. Are black holes even real? And then let's get to. Or do you go whoa, whoa, whoa?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

They were theoretical for a long time, hypothetical. And then we found evidence for them in the physical universe. Yeah. Even though you can't see them directly, you see their effect on everything around you. Hence no one is denying the black hole that's causing it. A B. In the first of the two Merlin books, this is actually the sequel, someone asked that very question of Merlin and Merlin was driven to rhyme on a feet first dive to this cosmic abyss. You will not survive because you will not miss. The tidal forces of gravity will create quite a calamity when you're stretched head to toe. Are you sure you Want to go? To go? To go.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Yeah. So I actually don't think it's going

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

to be a whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's going to be more of a.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Until your head separates from your body.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Correct.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And then your vocal cords won't make any sound at all.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's go to the next question. Okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Why do turtles breathe through their butts?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Great question. I was wondering the same thing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I didn't know turtles breathe through their butts. In fact, weeks ago, I was in the Galapagos Islands, and nobody told me that those giant tortoises breathe through their butt. As an astrophysicist, this is outside of my awareness.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I always had a question in anatomy and physiology class. Why does our sex stuff happen near our poop stuff?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. This is perfect evidence of bad design.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. I mean, we have an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system. No engineer would design that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There are people saying, oh, Earth is the manifestation of intelligence of an intelligence. It really doesn't look that way if

[Hasan Minhaj]

you get close, but evolution got us there. So I'm like, why is the fun park close to the outhouse?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Apparently keep them far away from each other. Didn't stop people from using the fun part.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If there were like spikes and things, we would have gone extinct long ago.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's go to the next one.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Hi, I'm Harvey. Why does time go slower in space than on Earth? Bye.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Hey, Harvey. I've wondered the same thing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Cool. It actually goes faster in space than on Earth.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What do you mean?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What part of that sentence was not clear?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, it was really clear, but it just seemed kind of like when you

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

are either moving fast or in the vicinity of a strong source of gravity, time slows down for you, as other people see it. So on Earth's surface, time will proceed at a given rate. Where the GPS satellites are orbiting, they're farther away from Earth's surface than we are. Obviously, they do not feel the slowing down that gravity would bring their clocks. And so GPS keeps faster time than we do. And we need to pre correct GPS time by Einstein's general theory of relativity before gives it to your cell phone. Otherwise the GPS targeting would be off in the military and grandma's house would be in the wrong place. On your. On your. Your directions in your car.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Copy that. Hey, are you a fan of music?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes, I think so.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's take a look at this question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Hi, I'm Roger and I have a question. What would happen if you played music very, very, very loud in Space. Bye.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Hey, Roger, That's a great question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Great question. As the first Alien movie correctly noted, in space, no one can hear you scream, which means no one would hear the loud music you played because there's no medium to transmit the pressure waves which we otherwise call sound. And you would just be moving your lips and I wouldn't know what the hell you were saying.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Neil, you just gotta stop scaring the children.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And in the latest series, Alien series on tv, the alien comes to Earth. I did a small voiceover for them.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Cause it's the Alien series. You gotta do right by it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure, sure.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And I offered them a line. They never used it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What was the line?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

On Earth, everyone can hear you scream. Ow. I know.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why do you keep scaring children? These are innocent children.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

List. These are the same children that love T. Rex, and they must know the T. Rex. They'll be hors d' oeuvres to T. Rex if they ever meet one. And they love T. Rex. So I think kids love things that can eat them. That's why they respect and love them practically every fairy tale. The end point is, someone is going to eat them. The wolf in Little Red Riding Hood, the three bears. You don't get shot, you get eaten. That's the scary part.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is crazy. They're very comfortable with.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Comfortable getting eaten by something with big teeth.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And that's why Barney. Cause you were Sesame Street. You were a PBS fan. Yeah, Barney, they didn't give him sharp teeth. Yeah. He has perfectly straight.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. I felt like Barney was insulting my intelligence. I did. Not with Barney. No, for real. I was like, you're treating me like a child.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

However, my takeaway from Barney. Go ahead, clean up. Clean up, everybody.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Clean up.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Clean up, everybody. Everywhere. Yeah, of course.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So this last question is from my son, who's 5 years old. Sometimes I'll be driving him home in our Kia Sorento. Not trying to brag, but we do have a Kia. And he'll be in the backseat. He'll be looking out the window, and he'll see the moon, and he'll go, dad, the moon is following us. And I'll look out the window and be like, yeah, yeah, the moon is following us. And so my question is, is the moon following us?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's a question. In this book, Merlin answers that question.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's great.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, by the way, my brother illustrated this book.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, incredible.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I went to the High School of Music and Art, and I went to the Bronx High School of Science. And this is our second collaboration that's incredible. And so Merlin answers it. Merlin answers it better than I will right now. It feels like it's following you, but it's not. You go 50 miles an hour. If you continue that for 100 years, you leave the moon behind. Okay. Going 50 miles an hour. The shrubbery along the roadside goes right by you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And the farther away something is from the side of your car, the slower it appears to pass. The horizon goes even more slowly. Something at basically infinity, like the moon, will go the slowest.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But it's still moving past you, just much more slowly. And it has to do with the angle that you are Subtending is the word as you drive past. That's how you can make something look like it's farther away if you're a designer or you're a special effects person working on a film. So, yeah, it is moving by, but not very quickly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it. That's why it feels like the moon's being a stalker.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes. Yes. In fact, my brother cues off of little quippy things that Merlin says. He drove this road that just leaves earth and goes off with a little smoke behind it. Yeah, kids ask that question all the time. Adults stop asking the question even though they don't have an answer to it. Adults lose their curiosity. It upsets me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. It's sad.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Ronny Cheng. Ronny Chieng will not watch movies, but he will read the plot synopsis on Wikipedia.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That means he is trusting the interpretations of others rather than his own. If he continues this way, he will become a shell of himself.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, he already is a shell

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

to be filled with the thoughts, opinions, views and attitudes of others. Wow. And I never want that to happen. I don't mind machines replacing the efforts of my body, but never will they replace the efforts of my mind.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Apparently, the latest trend in hiring is skills based hiring. That means employers care about capabilities over education or experience, leading to faster hiring, better performance. This is terrible for me now. If I want to be in TRON 2, I have to learn how to use a computer. These dashing good looks can't carry me anymore. If you're an employer who's adopted skills based hiring, the best way to ensure that your applicants have the right skills is ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter recommends smart screening questions to help you hone in on that perfect match for your role. And right now, you can try it for [e-mail] Hussin ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology finds you candidates ASAP. That have the exact skills that you're looking for. Plus they let you see who's recently active so you don't lose time chasing a ghost. Let ZipRecruiter help you find amazing candidates with the skills that you seek. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.comhusn that's ziprecruiter.com husn Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Listen up my friends foes. Keep scrolling. It's March, Spring is around the corner and everyone has totally ditched their New Year healthy selves except for me. I guess some of us are just built different. Okay, fine. I'm going to let you in on my secret. I'm still staying on top of my nutrition thanks to Huel. That's H U E L It's basically impossible to get all the daily nutrients that you need without incredible discipline or quality staples to fall back on. Now most days I rely on Huel's Black Edition ready to drink. It's a complete meal in a bottle. That's 35 grams of protein, 7 grams of fiber, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, and no artificial sweeteners. Plus it's under five bucks. I know what you're thinking, but does it taste good? Yeah, it does. You can't go wrong with the chocolate peanut butter which is my personal fave. Now some days I'll switch it up a bit and use the black addition powder. I like to add it to my smoothies for an additional 40 grams of protein and complete nutrition. Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% off online with my code [e-mail] HUSSAN15 new customers only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show. Much like comedic inspiration, health issues don't follow a 9 to 5 schedule, but thankfully with Zocdoc you can handle your health at any hour. So when you don't have any time for yourself until 11pm or you throw your back out doing somersaults on stage, or you start to question if that pimple is actually a rare flesh eating skin disease, you can go to Zocdoc to find an appointment. 247 ZocDoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in network doctors who so you can find someone that you love. We're talking about more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. There are over 200 plus specialties offered on Zocdoc. And you can easily search by symptom to find the right care provider, because what the heck is an endocrinologist? Spoiler alert. It's diabetes. They do diabetes. You can also view thousands of verified patient reviews on zocdoc to get a sense of your doctor's bedside manner. I swear by this because I prefer my doctor to be very awkward, borderline rude. You know that freak was top of his class. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com Husson to find and instantly book a doctor that you love today. That's zocdoc.comhusn zocdoc.com Hussan thank you to Zocdoc for sponsoring this message and our podcast.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

How come it's not a single hair out of place on your head?

[Hasan Minhaj]

So that's a combination of prayer, pomade, coconut oil.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, I see.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let's talk about everybody's favorite planet. The sun, Earth.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes, but go on. Someone's a planet. That's correct. In ancient Greece.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, no, it's still a planet.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What are you talking about?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So planet Greek is planetes, meaning wanderer. And there were seven wandering lights on the sky against the background. Stars, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun and the moon. Seven classical planets.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So you're saying the sun is not a planet, a star? No, no, no. Stars are whimsical. They represent magic and that something auspicious or good is happening.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, if you don't know. If you don't know science. Yeah, that's. It could be all of that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

To you, the sun is a fiery circle thing that is demonic and gives people skin cancer. So what are you saying? What is the sun?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The sun is also a star.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So the world is.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And I'm going to use some of that pomade. When you get a chance, give me some pomade. Yeah, sure.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We can call it tomah pomada. The world is undergoing a solar boom. Renewables are spiking, especially in China. Australia has so much solar energy, it is literally giving it away for free. Do you think the sun has enough juice in it to power all the AI data centers that we are going to inevitably be using in the future?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Of course.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And are we living through a solar boom?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Of course. Most of the solar power just hits the earth and radiates back. But there's not only the sun as a source of power, which you only have access to in the daytime when there are no clouds. Nukes are making a comeback. Safe nukes. Portable nukes. Portable. Not backpack portable, but like flatbed truck portable power stations that are completely transforming the life of people who live in deeply rural is not even the right word. For example, in Alaska, something we don't think about as city folk. Yes, there are towns in Alaska. My wife was raised in Alaska, so I have an awareness sensitivity to these challenges in the state. There are towns that get deliveries of diesel fuel to run their generators over the winter. If the river freezes, which it almost always does, and the roads are taken out, there's the risk of running out of power through the winter and then they all freeze to death. So the military is working on these portable uranium power stations. Turn it on, goes for 10 years and you plug everything into it and everything's fine. So it's portable and it's instant power at any time, which the sun cannot provide. So what you need are advances in storage devices, batteries, or some other clever means. Here's a clever way. When you lift up a heavy object, that object now has energy it didn't have when it was on the ground. It's called gravitational potential energy. If you let it go, it'll fall and break your toe. It took energy to break your toe. Where'd that energy come from? The energy it took you to lift it up in the first place. So one future possible design of power plants that have solar power or tidal power. Whenever that power is available, they use it to lift heavy blocks. Then the sun sets and now the block will descend with pulleys and levers and however and it converts back. So you're converting solar power to mechanical gravitational power. And then it gets to the bottom, the sun rises and it goes up.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is awesome.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, totally, totally. It's 100% conversion. Yeah. There's not this. This chemical losses you get by converting it into a battery and then getting it back out of the battery.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So do you believe that if we properly harness solar energy?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I don't believe anything.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. Do you have a hunch, an inkling, a tingling of your spear, I love tingles. That these advancements in solar will actually be able to put a dent in climate change?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes. The question is how quickly, how quickly would we adopt these measures? By the way, if we converted all. All carbon deposits into atmospheric greenhouse gases, we'll still be here. We're not going to render ourselves extinct. But the map of the world will be completely redrawn if we lose the ice caps. Antarctica, where I just visited this past December. It's Summertime and Greenland. If they melt back into the oceans, the level of the oceans will rise to the Statue of Liberty's left elbow, burying underwater all the world's major cities. Because on the water's edge you have access to its transportation, irrigation, commerce.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Most of the world's greatest cities are on the water's edge for exactly that reason. They'll all just get flooded. Denver doesn't have to worry about this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. But practically every other city does. London, Paris, everybody's got rivers going through it. There it is.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And then Montana will just basically become the new Manhattan.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Montana becomes the lone landmass in the world. Yeah. So the entire mountain time zone basically is pretty high elevation. Point is. I don't know that we can pick up a city and move it inland fast enough. Many people will die. Whole countries will go away in the South Pacific. And it's not that they're going to wait around for the water to get higher and then they have to leave. Yeah. You'll get covered by a storm. Storm surges as the temperature moves just this little bit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The tail of your weather extremes goes out even farther. So you will notice this water problem well before the water level gets to that point because storm surges will take you out. That's what happened here in New York City during Hurricane Sandy. Right. If you drive down the west side highway in the 20s, there's the con Ed station. There's a new wall there that is now higher than whatever the previous wall was because that's the new normal. That'll be good, certainly, for another Hurricane Sandy. But will it be good for Hurricane Joey?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, these are ridiculous names. Hurricane Joey is just. It just sounds so friendly.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, by the way, we name hazardous asteroids after gods of destruction and death and pestilence.

[Hasan Minhaj]

To be scary.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Why not? For example, we have an asteroid Apophis that's gonna make a close approach to Earth in what year?

[Hasan Minhaj]

In what year?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

2029. Ask me how close.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How close?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It'll dip below our orbiting communication satellites. It'll be the closest.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It'll go below Starlink.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, Starlink is lower than that. So it'll be above StarLink, but below DirecTV, which goes off your communication.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So we'll still have Wi Fi, but there'll be a goddamn.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so it's gonna come by comet coming close. We don't know if Earth's gravity is gonna break it apart. We don't know how the structural integrity of this thing is because as you come near strong sources of gravity, there's stress in your physical body.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you have this marked in Your Google Calendar?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

April 13th in 2029. Which by the way is a Friday, so. But it's not gonna hit us. But we're gonna study it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why didn't you open with this? Because we started with this.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I don't wanna depress you. You're a happy man. You are a happy person. You are generally happy person. I'm not here to change that vibe.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We started with UFOs and aliens. You should have just started with, hey, April 13, 2029, just do an all day hold. Friday, April 13, 2029, Just do an all day hold in your Google calendar. Hey, guess what? A comet may hit Earth. Then we could have gone to the avenue.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's why science works, because we know it's not going to hit us. But for a while we didn't know whether it would hit us.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And that doesn't terrify you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

NASA just demonstrated the DART mission, the double asteroid redirect test. NASA sent a space probe with a deployable space observing platform, which I think was made by the Italians named Luca, I think. Anyhow, it went into slam into this asteroid to try to change its orbital period around because it's a moonlet around the main asteroid. And it succeeded, changed the orbital period by half an hour and it would have been counted as a success had it changed it by 73 seconds. So NASA's working on its muscle to deflect asteroids, which is what you're gonna need in the future. And by the way, in the year 1900, if you say what do you fear most people would say, oh, population outstripping food, polio. The list is not on anybody's list today. Or maybe polio's coming back.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, polio's making.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's making a comeback.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thank you, rfk. Making a comeback.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So now we know about asteroids putting us at risk. So that's something on our list today that was not on our list back then. Plus rising sea levels that could take out cities that was not on anybody's list in 1900. So when you ask me what am I concerned about in the future? I don't know. In the year 2100, what list are we going to provide that is undreamt of today? Since everything we're concerned about today was undreamt of 100 years ago. I worry about the unknown. Unknowns. Man,

[Hasan Minhaj]

this sucks.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm not here to depress you. You're a happy man. I like happy people.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay? Via science and government, these two things work together. Or sometimes not together.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Ideally, we have the National Academy of Sciences, which was signed into law under President Lincoln in 1863, when he clearly had other things on his plate that he needed to worry about.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The National Academy of Sciences goes back to Lincoln.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes, it does.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wow. And that's usually. It's the pre roll right before I watch stuff on pbs. This episode of Arthur is brought to you by the National.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Arthur, Is that right? Of course. Yeah, I remember Arthur.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm a fan of Arthur. I'm a fan of Sesame Street. I'm also a fan of Lila in the Lo. That's a new show on PBSKids.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

PBSKids.org you know what kind of animal Arthur is?

[Hasan Minhaj]

He's an anteater.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Aardvark. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So did you see the original book of Arthur Demented. Sorry. Mark Brown. I'm a huge fan. Love you, Mark Brown. Would love to meet you. Mark Brown. Beverly Clear. You guys are.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No. In the original illustrations.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yo. Those early editions. Terrifying.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

They are terrifying.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All the animals are like real animals. Arthur has a full. Full aardvark nose. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you remember when Sonic, they dropped the trailer and they were like, what the is going on with Sonic?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, the Sonic fans didn't that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That was the way I felt when I was. I got super into Arthur. Mark Brown, a fan. I had to go back to the original archive. I'm like, let me listen to the first record.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, no, right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You like Jay Z, you like the blueprint. Go check out Reasonable Doubt. When I saw those first few Arthur books, they were written either in the early 70s or late 60s. I was like, dude, this dude was dropping acid. These are terrifying creatures.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You need empathy for your main character. I don't feel any empathy for that. I was like, let him back in the wild. Carrie and I pick up from Arthur loses a tooth, and we move on from there. I don't acknowledge the previous stuff. Anyways, let's get back to why were we talking about science? Well, because here's the.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, you said the sponsor.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The sponsor. National Academy of Science.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no, no. You're thinking of National Science Foundation.

[Hasan Minhaj]

National Science foundation, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Don't confuse those. That came about after the Second World War in response to a document written by the first ever president's science advisor. Although that wasn't his title at the time. That's the role he played. Vannevar Bush is his name. He wrote a document called Science the Endless Frontier. And in it, chapter by chapter, science and its role in our health. Science and its role in Creating industries and jobs. Science as its role in security and developing wealth and your health.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It was the blueprint for how America did science in the 20th century. And it was informed by the fact that science, physics specifically, won the war. Okay. The Second World War coming right out of that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so the role of science, not just only bravery, science matters. The National Science foundation definitely would be pumping money.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Shout out to the nsf.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes. Now I have to say something else.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Go ahead.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because since I've been seeing you on bus stanchions, that's very distracting.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because that's my man. What do you want a bus station for? What were you with a shirt? You know. Okay, so I just want you to know I'm old enough to remember 30 years ago. Yes, it was. Have you. Have you bathed yet? Have you. You haven't shaven today, clearly. Yeah. Stubble was like, go groom yourself.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But now everybody's got it. Yeah. Everybody's got a thing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

A little thing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

A little thing. And so razor companies must be losing money hand over fist because nobody is shaving with razors anymore.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, you'll love this as a fan of sciences, the razor companies win either way. Because what you have with the taper, the fade, how you get lined up.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, you need precision instruments.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Of course. Yes. So some of these, I mean, you talking about barbershops here in New York now. You got your Russian barbers, you got your Dominican barbers, and then you got your black barbers. I have a Japanese barber. But you talk about how much you love algebra two, trigonometry. Oh, man, they are getting perpendicular with joints. A natural line. Do you want a Y equals X this way?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Manscaping.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Totally. This is manscaping with.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

With hypotenuses and everything. Totally, totally.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Some people go the full 90 degree. I mean, we talk about some of the dudes. We can go to the Bronx. We can go uptown. You got dudes doing full perpendicular.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes. It comes straight down right here. Degrees on the. On the temple.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Of course. X, Y axis.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Up top here.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, now, when I say I want it a little more natural, what I'm doing is I just want, like, I want healthy. It's almost like you want to look

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

like anybody's been doing geometry on your face.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Bingo. Back to where we're at.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Go.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Modern, practical solar panels.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Were invented in 1954. Why has it taken 70 years for them to take off?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I thought they were even older than that. But okay. Modern. I mean, high efficiency.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Because schools became integrated oil Comes out

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

of the ground for free.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, not for free.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Once you dig the hole, it comes out for free.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And you can put it in a truck and move it to wherever you want on Earth's surface. And you build roads. But 1954, we were just beginning the interstate system. And so tax money paid for the roads that the automotive company and the oil companies would have you drive on. And so they didn't invest that infrastructure. We did as a country. So if you want to ask what is the total cost of oil, it is our tax money creating a landscape on which you can burn gasoline. We paid for that, that entire infrastructure. So you pull it out of the ground.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Put it in a truck, send it wherever you want. And now that's why if you were to drive to California from New York, you don't need all the gas you would ever use to get across the country. Everyone would have to have their own tanker. Right. So you just have, you know, 15 gallons of gas to get you to the next gas station and you refill on your. Well, someone put the gas there in front of you. Space exploration, space habitation will not become a regular thing until we have filling stations spread around along the way. The solar system. Correct. Because otherwise you got to carry all the fuel you need with you. And if you ever, you ever see like the Saturn V rocket, the astronauts are up here, any rocket, the astronauts are up here. And all the rest is bomb, regulated bomb. Okay. Fuel. So you don't need that if you're going to refill later on. Point is, that's why we use oil. It was fast and easy and relatively cheap. Plus, back then, we didn't have a good way to store solar power. So there are sensible reasons why this was the case. Plus, it's not in the oil company's interest to have you not use oil, so.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But isn't it in the consumer's interest? At the time, the world's interest at

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

the time, there wasn't a big movement describing the risks of climate change. We knew what role extra CO2 would play in warming the planet. Those data were available, but it didn't really work its way into people's consciousness as to what would happen if we continue this unabated.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, we've seen China now invest huge in solar. Meanwhile, America is investing in ballrooms, new ballrooms that we're paying for. What's going on here? Why the disconnect?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I don't know why people do anything, but I can describe the consequences of it. Okay. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

If we don't how will this bite us in the ass?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, it'll bite the whole world in the ass. Oh, by the way, China is still digging coal. So it's not like they're completely green yet. They may be one of the biggest coal producing countries out there, but their investments in renewable energy is the future. So if you have foresight and your country, and you care about the future of your country, that's the kind of investments one should be making. That's an if statement. I'm not telling you to do anything if you want to. If you don't want to invest in it. You know, we're a free country. People establish laws and legislation who you voted for. Right, right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So you're not telling, but you are alluding one of our spiciest moments from the previous episode when we were all in the caves.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Half of everyone born was dead before the age of 30.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Jesus.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Science matters here, okay? All right. You can run around and eat all the organic you want, okay? You'd be dead by the 30 unless some doctor came in and said, we can. We can increase your life expectancy using science.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You're directing this at me as if I'm RFK Jr. I'm not. You were giving an impassioned speech, so you were alluding to the power of science and how it can change the world. And I agree with you. Now, do you think I thought when Elon Musk gave Donald J. Trump that red Tesla in front of the White House, I thought DJT was going to go big on solar and see its power. I also had my doubts because I knew that door handle was gonna probably confuse the President. I was like, he's not gonna figure it out.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Approach that door handle, it's kind of mysterious.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Cause you gotta push.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's flush with the door.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah. So it's flush with the door, but you gotta know how to. You gotta push. Far right in. It's a little.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, you push with your thumb. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And then it goes. And then it goes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's correct.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. So I was like, Trump's not gonna be able to figure that out.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

This is a different panel than I've had.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Everything's computer, but how much of a bite or incentive do you think that possibly gave the President, the government, and the nation at large? Do you think Elon helped shape discourse in this way?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I think this is America. We're a capitalist democracy. Money matters only and ever does money matter. My father used to tell me that, and I didn't want to believe it. I didn't Understand it. When I was a kid, I said, isn't this just the right thing? It doesn't matter if the money doesn't go there.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You mean financial incentive. There has to be a financial incentive for somebody.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He said, it won't happen unless somebody can make a buck off of it. And I didn't. That was too mature a concept for me to grasp. You know, when I was eight, my father was active in the civil rights movement and city governance. He worked under Mayor Lindsay, so he was very much in. In the 1960s. And I'm just this kid. The scientist. Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Man, you are cut from special cloth.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I. I stayed grounded. I stayed grounded. Yeah. I care about the human condition in ways that I don't know that I would have otherwise if I was just a scientist kid. Coming from scientists. Not that that's a prerequisite for caring about others, but it's deeply in my DNA.

[Hasan Minhaj]

If I may, this care for and having this deep empathy for humanity.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes. Yes, precisely. He had another point though. He said it's not good enough to be right. You also have to be effective. You can say the right things and march down the street, but if you're not effecting change, go home. You're just patting yourself on the back saying, oh, look how noble I am in all of my declarations. If you're not actually in the trenches making change happen, you're not in the game. So damn.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Pops is dropping bars.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He was dropping it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Dropping him and ahead of his time. Completely on Reddit in the comment section and just going hard in the pain.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The 60s and 70s was last I checked.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is your father before Reddit? Is he still alive?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, we lost him in 2019. Prior to.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Up to him, there was. To him, man, what a. What a giant.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What a. What an amazing human being.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In fact, there's a New York Times obit on him if you want to dig it up. Yeah. Cyril Degrasse Tyson. Yeah. It's a picture of him.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Please.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He. He used a capital D for the Degrasse. I'm a little lowercase D. Yeah. From in my middle name. So. Point is, if you can create a financial incentive for something to happen. Yes. Then the rivers just flow in that direction. Right. And then you don't have to convert people's emotional states.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Where money flows, change goes. Perhaps.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Is that a phrase? I love that phrase. Thank you. That encapsulates what I've been trying to say for 15 minutes. Money talks and, you know, bullshit walks. So you were asking about AI farms. So if you have an AI farm, you can make a law that says generate your own damn power. So they'd have to get the portable nukes or build a wind farm or solar farm or title farm. Build it near a place where they can get their own power. Yeah, that's no different from what factories used to do when they needed. You had sawmills, they would be on the water's edge that use stream power, which is basically gravity, using water to turn their mills before electricity, for example. So that's not a different challenge than business has ever experienced in the past.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is a really interesting pocket that we're in right now because hearing about your father, how that influenced you, the lessons you learned, you being a scientist, there's three buckets that I'm seeing here. You have scientific progress, you have governance, and then you have money. You recently dropped a video explaining, dare I say, a misquote that you had in regards to Elon Musk. But you said he, quote, hasn't done anything that NASA hasn't already done. Can you elaborate on that? That way we can get clarification on that and not offend anyone who owns a cybertruck.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

When Elon delivered cargo to the space station five years ago, something like that, it was banner headlines. Private enterprise brings cargo to space. It's a new frontier.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He brought cargo to the space station. NASA's been doing that itself for like decades. It's not what Elon has done in space that is the moving frontier here. It is the cost of access to space that he has pioneered and brought that number down. Opening up the accessibility of space to new and innovative industries. That's his contribution. Here he is making access to space cheaper. And no one would have been talking about at the levels they are electric cars were it not for Elon Musk. He made a conversation about electric cars in America, a daily thing. So there's that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And does that shift governance? Does that shift culture? And does that shift people or people to governments?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If he makes money off of it, it'll shift everything.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You make money. Do you realize in 1905, you ever see this photo of Fifth Avenue, Easter Sunday? There's like 19 horse drawn carriages for every one Model T. Model Ts had just come out 10 years later, there's 19 Model Ts and one horse drawn carriage.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We literally and figuratively built civilization on the backs of horses. And after 10 years, you couldn't give away a horse. Why? Because the car was cheap. He made sure that people on his assembly line could buy the cars that they're making on that assembly line.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What a concept. Okay, so the cars are inexpensive. You know how they work. Or there's someone down the street who knows how they work. They don't die on you. Whatever your challenges were with horses, you didn't have it with cars. And it changed like that. Point is, it happened rapidly. Yeah, because the money equation, the economics

[Hasan Minhaj]

of it, made it possible.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Thank you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now my question is, how do we get real innovation that helps move society forward and hopefully doesn't hurt us from a government that feels bloated and from a private sector that oftentimes feels like it's hurting us?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Vote for scientifically literate people. What else can I say? We're a democracy. I feel like I'm the opposite of a lobbyist. All right? Lobbyists go to the people you elected and you get them to do what they want. No, I'm an educator. So I turn to the electorate and I say, if you want young earth creationists on the science committee, here are the consequences to that. We will recede in the dominance we have enjoyed and take it for granted since the Second World War and our role in science in the world. And other countries will rise up, China especially among them. And that's the consequence. And then I walk out of the room.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Fishing is getting to be a real problem. And I'm not talking about salmon. I am talking about ph. Phishing scams, bad faith actors, sending imposter links to your email or your text messages. They're getting sneakier. They can make websites look like your bank or your social media. They even impersonate your co workers. Once you enter your credentials on any of these fake websites, the username and password you've typed in are sent straight to the scammers. Now, they got your usual logins and they are trying them out on all of your bank accounts. So say goodbye to your Roth IRA. You are retiring at 89 years old. Now. Now, thankfully, with today's sponsor, NordVPN, I don't have to worry. And you don't have to either. You can go to nordvpn.com Hasan Minhaj to get an exclusive deal today. Look, I'm a well meaning, borderline gullible man. I would absolutely bail my second cousin out of Mexican jail if he so needs. And while I should always be cautious and I should always be double checking my link domains, using the NordVPN Threat Protection feature allows me to operate on the Internet without fear. That's why I'm super psyched to be able to give you guys a 4 extra months for free when you go to NordVPN.com HasanMinhaj today. NordVPN also has a 30 day money back guarantee so you can try it out risk free. That's NordVPN.com HasanMinhaj Stay safe my friends. I hate the smell of rotting food almost as much as I hate wasting it in the first place. Thankfully now I have mill. Mill is a food recycler that is odorless, guiltless and completely effortless. See, I've always wanted to reduce my food waste. It's one of the easiest ways for an individual to make a big impact on the environment. But I cannot stand the mess of a compost bin in the kitchen. But with mill, all you do is drop in your scraps and then you let it go. It works quickly and quietly turning your food, even small bones, into nutrient rich grounds. Now I take out the trash way less yet my kitchen smells better and I don't have to feel guilty when my zucchini gets moldy. Plus it looks cool. Yes, this trash can alternative is so fly. People keep asking me where I got the giant Alexa chic and savvy. But you have to live with mill to really get it. The good thing is you can try it right now risk free for 90 days and get $75 off with code husan visit mil.com hasan that's mil.com Hassan March can start to feel a bit dreary, especially when you're trying to stay healthy and on budget. I know. Wah wah. I'm cold, I'm hangry and I don't want to cook anymore. So I decided Hasan, it is time to switch things up. Thankfully I have found a way to spice up my routine with a one stop shop. I'm talking about Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods has hella options, always with clean ingredients. So now I'm expanding my meal rotation without compromising my health. I recently discovered the ready to cook chicken and veggie kebabs. You don't even have to grill them, you can just chuck them in the oven and forget about them. Say less. Grab some 365 hummus and boom. It's a Mediterranean feast. Speaking of the 365 brand, they have been the powerhouse behind Bina and I's Taco nights. They have the best rice, beans and chunky salsas. Bonus points if you check their frozen foods aisle for their Taquitos. Instant Taco Night for Less. But my new favorite way to pick out Dinner is by wandering around the Whole Foods looking for the yellow signs. These highlight sales and everyday low priced items. Always with the same high quality, of course. It's kind of like a scavenger hunt. Save on regional flavors at Whole Foods Market. And thank you Whole Foods for sponsoring the show. How do you feel about humanity being multi planetary in us trying to get off of Earth?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We're not going to be multi planetary.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why aren't we?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There's no reason for it. Well, let me be more precise. That would be an expensive endeavor. Would you agree?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It would be one of the most expensive things we ever did. Would you agree?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If you look at the most expensive things we ever have done in civilization, they all have only three common drivers for what funded them.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And what are they?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

One of them is the I don't want to die driver. Great. That gives you the Manhattan Project. That gives you the Great Wall of China. That gives you all the things that were done defensively or offensively in the history of the world. Next, which doesn't happen much anymore is praise of royalty or deity. And that's where you get the pyramids. So you get the cathedrals of Europe. Very expensive, huge investments, multi generational investments of time, energy, money, commitment. Nobody explores in the service of kings or God anymore.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean we do have the pyramids and we have the White House ballroom.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, when I talk about, I'm not talking about just something that looks expensive. I'm talking about something that's a major fraction of the GDP of a nation. That's what I'm talking about.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Got it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. And the wealthier the nation, the higher is the level where you can spend money on things that have nothing to do with these causes. The James Webb Space Telescope was billions of dollars. But it's below a radar level where above which it'll be analyzed for whether it is in the interest of American security or if there's a chance you can make a buck off of it. Okay, so those three drivers, praise of royalty or deity. I don't want to die and I don't want to die poor. Okay, so now why would we terraform Mars and ship a billion people there? Give me a reason for doing that. I mean if it's not one of these three, it's not going to happen. So make it one of these three.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean have you been, have you been to Florida? So we will not be multi planetary.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You know how, you know how you get to Mars? China says they want to put military bases on Mars. We'll be in Mars in 10 months. One month to design, build and fund the craft. Nine months to get there. And NASA? I don't think they have a craft that'll get us to Mars. So then Elon says I have a rocket that'll get to Mars. And then we take Elon's rocket to Mars. But that's not a business model that involves money other than tax base.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Neil, you've been in this country much longer than I have. But I know this game. If we say Al Qaeda is on Mars, we're going to Mars.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct. And that's the I don't wanna die driver. That's how we'll become a multi planet species. All the reasons given. Oh well, suppose something bad happens on Earth, we need to protect the species. What bad would happen on Earth? Oh, an asteroid might come.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, it's 2029, bro.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's coming. Hold on. I'm thinking that whatever effort it takes to terraform Mars and ship a billion people there is more than the effort to deflect the asteroid. I'm just thinking, just spitballing here. Oh, there'd be a killer virus. I'm thinking whatever is the effort to terraform Mars and ship a billion people there is more than now that we have the genome cracked and we have genomes of more and more species crack that we can find a perfect antiviral serum. I'm thinking that would be easier than shipping a billion people to Mars. Think of whatever possible disaster you can and investing money to solve that problem is going to solve it faster and more effectively than shipping a billion people to Mars. If you want to go to Mars, do it because it's fun. Do it because you want to explore, do it because you want to take a vacation there. But to justify it by saying we need to be a two planet species has no actual foundation in actionable decisions.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, let's do the last question in regards to this. I hear this every two weeks. Do we save Earth or do we explore space?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Why is it a choice? Why don't we do both? Next question.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, great.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Why is everything a choice? Do you know how much we spend on NASA with this James Webb and the space station and all the astronauts and the Artemis mission back to the moon? You know how much that is? It's 4/10 of 1 penny on your tax dollar. If you held up that dollar and, and cut 4/10 of 1% across its width, that won't even get you into the paint. I could remove that. You wouldn't even know it's Missing. And you gotta tell me, stop spending on that because we have these other problems. What the hell are you spending 99.6% of the budget on?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Military.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Take a look at that. No, it's not that high. But it's high.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's very high.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Look at all the other things we're spending money on. And almost anything you deeply care about, we're spending more on it than we're spending on space. It's just that space expenditures are way more visible. A Hubble photo, a James Webb photo. Whatever happens there is headlines. I wanted to create a movement, and I'm not a movement guy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, let's do the movement where every

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

federal agency gets funded. How much people think they're getting.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is great.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

NASA would have like 30% of the budget. Yeah, people are. There's the imaginations of what it's spending versus what it is.

[Hasan Minhaj]

If we have private enterprise, what do we need NASA for?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, because private enterprise cares about the quarterly report and the annual report and

[Hasan Minhaj]

shareholder value and P and L sheets.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Whereas exploration can take the long view on the question you pose and the answer you deliver. And a nation, it is in a nation's long term interest to always take the long view. And so NASA, you cannot expect private enterprise to explore space the way NASA does because there's no return on that investment in the quarterly report or in the annual report. There are longer term investments. Do you know one of the greatest drivers. Nobody talks about this. One of the greatest drivers for personal electronics was because your parents. I don't know how old you are.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm 40 years old.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

40. Your grandparents had a radio that was the size of furniture in their living room.

[Hasan Minhaj]

My grandmother didn't have a radio, but sure, yeah, no, no, she didn't have a radio. And she would let you know. And you know, Nani, I know you're seeing me from above. I'm just gonna let Neil Degrasse Tyson know you didn't have a radio.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Those who had radios of her generation, it was the size of furniture in the room. Now we walk around with it in our pocket. That miniaturization was driven by the fact that to put anything in orbit cost money by the ounce. And NASA went through great pains to diminish the size of its electronics so that it wouldn't have to burn as much fuel as would otherwise have been necessary to put it into orbit. And that push to miniaturize electronics birthed the miniature electronics industry, which we can't imagine life without it from the Sony walkman to the. To the portable transistor radios.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You're not even mentioning the Nintendo Switch, for example.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So there are benefits. And one other benefit. The Environmental Protection Agency, of course, the EPA.

[Hasan Minhaj]

My dad worked for the Cal EPA for 35 years.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There you go. Do you know NOAA? National oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. You know that? Do you remember that TV public service announcement where the Indian was tearing. Yes, the crying Indian people start pollution,

[Hasan Minhaj]

people can stop it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

By the way, he was Italian, but back then you could do that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, so he was Italian, yet indigenous. Got it. Okay, understood. Casting. Casting issue. Let's get sag on.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's casting. But back then he did that. Okay, who looks Indian on the line today? Sure, sure.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This guy's just a really tan Sicilian.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Tan Sicilian. Well, let's keep going. The banning of leaded gas, the banning of of ddt. All of that happened while we were walking on the moon. We went to the moon to explore the moon and looked over our shoulder and we discovered Earth for the first time as only nature would reveal it to us. Oceans, land, clouds, no color coded countries, which in my cynical old age, I'm reflecting back, realizing that the point of that was to tell us who our enemies were and who our friends were geopolitically. Why else are you going to take something as beautiful as a planet and color code it and cut it up and teach that to little children? What's that about? Space change that. NASA changed that. The Apollo missions changed that. And that was not in the manifest. Well, what shall we have Apollo do for us? The goal was to beat the godless Russians to the moon. That was the goal because we were scared witless that godless commies would somehow take over the world. It was another part of the I don't want to die driver. Which is why we spend $100 billion to do that in today's dollars. $100 billion, right. All right, so there was a firmware upgrade in our consciousness over those years where all of a sudden Earth became something we would and should all care about. Got it holistically. Not just, oh, this company is polluting this river. We got to clean that up. No, Earth, that's where we got Earth Day. You could have had earth day in 1960. 1950. 1980. It happened while we were walking on the moon. And the hippies from the 1960s, they didn't start talking about the environment until after we saw Earthrise over the lunar landscape in 1968. Go back and look at the rhetoric. It was all free love and make love not war. The environmental movement was later. Yes. You want to talk about the value of going into space? Oh my gosh, the perspective that it gives. And if you're gonna say, why are we spending money up there when we can't be spending money down here, go back to caveman days. Imagine it. They're youngins and they say, we want to go explore out the window, but we gotta check with our elders. Right. So they go to the 30 year olds who are the elders.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So I'm dead according to them.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah. So we want to go out there and they caucus and they say, nope, you cannot leave the cave because we have cave problems that we need to solve first. That's what you sound like to me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's sad to me that governments need violence or fear as a driver or

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

the promise to get rich. Money does it too. That's what we get. The colonization Columbus voyages. That money can drive it if there's enough of an expectation on a return. And I will tell you that Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand sent Columbus. Only after Columbus figured out what did he find, who the friendlies are, who the hostiles, what are the trade winds doing? Only then did the Dutch East India Trading Company rise up and make a buck off of that. Because to do something first does not make a business case. The businesses come afterwards, not first. And somebody's got to do it first. And it's not somebody who's looking at a quarterly report.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So you're an educator?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes, I count myself among the ranks.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, so then the only way we're going to get America smart again, reading again, and caring about science again, and to care about space is to say Hamas is in space, Isis is doing chemistry, Al Qaeda is doing physics, and Boko Haram is reading. Have you subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet? You can listen completely ad free and get access to exclusive bonus content you won't hear anywhere else. Like my discussion with Malala on how therapy changed her life. Or my convo with Mel Robbins on how her let them theory applies to parenting. Tap subscribe on Apple podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to sign up on any app that's lemonadapremium.com.