Loading summary
Transcript287 lines
- [00:02]
Rainn Wilson
Lemonade.
- [00:06]
Hasan Minhaj
Now, the office theme famously does not have lyrics. However, you said in chapter 15 of the Bassoon King, you said, perhaps I'll sing them to you one day if you're nice.
- [00:19]
Rainn Wilson
You haven't been very nice.
- [00:21]
Hasan Minhaj
I'm a pretty nice guy.
- [00:24]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah. I have some office lyrics.
- [00:26]
Hasan Minhaj
Can we do it?
- [00:26]
Rainn Wilson
The theme song. It's been a very long time. I have. I have to read them off. Is that okay?
- [00:31]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. Now, do you need us to set the rhythm or you kind of have it in your head. Down. All right, we'll do it as a group. Yeah, something like that. Okay, so here we go. Here we go, Here we go. We're going to do it as a group. A one, a two, a one, two, three.
- [00:48]
Rainn Wilson
The Office. A show about a boss. Mostly it's a show about white. Show is a lot of fun. Mostly Dwight's a lot of fun. Remember Stanley? Mostly I remember Dwight Krasinski's manly. No one wants a bobblehead of Jim. Let's face it, it's a show about Dwight. Let's get real.
- [01:16]
Hasan Minhaj
Let's go, let's go.
- [01:20]
Rainn Wilson
Thank you, America.
- [01:21]
Hasan Minhaj
All right.
- [01:22]
Rainn Wilson
Thank you.
- [01:22]
Hasan Minhaj
All right. Holy. What a great. What a great.
- [01:25]
Rainn Wilson
You just got your viral.
- [01:27]
Hasan Minhaj
Of course. What are we but little micro content babies?
- [01:31]
Rainn Wilson
Micro content. There you go.
- [01:33]
Hasan Minhaj
Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Rainn Wilson.
- [01:41]
Rainn Wilson
Oh, stop. Please stop. Really? Thank you, Rainn.
- [01:47]
Hasan Minhaj
I just gotta say, let's set the table here. You have joined the pantheon of classic TV characters as Dwight Schrute. Would you agree?
- [01:55]
Rainn Wilson
Why, thank you, Hasan.
- [01:57]
Hasan Minhaj
Well, in chapter three of your great book, the Bassoon King, you said you were never drawn to the main character of a TV show. You were always drawn to the weird neighbors.
- [02:07]
Rainn Wilson
Yep. Mm.
- [02:08]
Hasan Minhaj
The agents of chaos, the B storyline characters. And now I would say you're an all time goat TV weirdo.
- [02:18]
Rainn Wilson
All time goat TV weirdo.
- [02:20]
Hasan Minhaj
Totally.
- [02:20]
Rainn Wilson
It's gonna be in my tombstone now.
- [02:22]
Hasan Minhaj
Let me ask you a question.
- [02:23]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah.
- [02:23]
Hasan Minhaj
Who are your top three all time TV weirdos?
- [02:28]
Rainn Wilson
Okay, that is an awesome question, and you're absolutely right. When I was growing up, it was the TV clowns. It was the weirdos, the misfits, the guys who are running the B story and the C story. One of my favorite shows of all time, and I think it's underappreciated, is Taxi. Do you remember Taxi? So Jim Ignatowski, Reverend Jim, played by Christopher Lloyd, was my number one TV weirdo. But then Andy Kaufman playing Latke Gravis, he's also number two. They were able to get two or three. And then they had Danny DeVito as the boss. So they had, like three of the all time great TV weirdos in one show. In fact, I'm gonna answer your question by just saying those three on Taxi. Best three TV weirdos, maybe of all time.
- [03:13]
Hasan Minhaj
Can I have you go to this camera.
- [03:15]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah.
- [03:16]
Hasan Minhaj
And just impromptu, give your ode to TV weirdos?
- [03:21]
Rainn Wilson
Okay.
- [03:21]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. Just off the top of the dome.
- [03:24]
Rainn Wilson
When one enters the family, the misguided, the disjointed family of a television sitcom. Yes, there's the father. Yes, there's the crazy boss. Yes, there's the uncle. But it's the clowns. Send in the clowns. Because that's why we watch television. The A story of people falling in love or getting in trouble in school is there solely to promote the Lennies and squiggies of the world who pop in and tickle your funny bone and make life worth living. Boom. Thank you very much.
- [04:04]
Hasan Minhaj
That was amazing. That was incredible.
- [04:09]
Rainn Wilson
This is why you have such a large staff.
- [04:11]
Hasan Minhaj
Oh, to pick up our guests?
- [04:13]
Rainn Wilson
No, for the extra. For the clapping, of course. Because you're not adding any post. Are you going to add more clapping in post?
- [04:18]
Hasan Minhaj
We could.
- [04:20]
Rainn Wilson
Let's do it.
- [04:22]
Hasan Minhaj
One of the things I love about you, Rain, is that you're one of the few people that I've seen in their public Persona, lead with faith and spirituality. Now, you haven't been shunned for it. So my question is, when are you starting the culture?
- [04:35]
Rainn Wilson
This is the year 2025. This is it. We're going to have a launch. Yeah, it's going to be the third eye. Crystalpalace.com and would love for you to come to one of our seminars.
- [04:53]
Hasan Minhaj
Absolutely not. You're not. Okay, jokes aside, I was talking about this with one of our producers. The interesting thing is that you seem to be very happily married. You have a beautiful family, and generally, from the research that I've done, cults generally involve kind of older horned dogs that are looking to get their kinks off.
- [05:15]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah, interesting. Yeah.
- [05:16]
Hasan Minhaj
It usually delves. It takes a quick left turn into sex, and then at some point, they have to leave state lines.
- [05:23]
Rainn Wilson
It really is true. Isn't that true? I hadn't really thought about that. But you're absolutely right. It always ultimately boils down to sex.
- [05:29]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, it's just an old horned dog.
- [05:31]
Rainn Wilson
But isn't that the same thing with, like, all of these pastors and preachers that end up, you know, in these kind of sexual escapades and whatnot, too? It's like Spiritual leaders are seeking to kind of fill a hole in themselves. And you know, when they can't get it through, like getting the love and approbation of their followers, then they end up in someone's pants.
- [05:58]
Hasan Minhaj
By the way, if he does end up becoming a cult leader, I outright condemn all of that behavior. And I had nothing to do with it. I'll give you the. Can I give you the serious question? Why do you think people get so weird about talking about spirituality and faith?
- [06:17]
Rainn Wilson
Well, first things first. I want to say that there's a lot of people that talk about spirituality and faith and mental health and spiritual tools and they kind of present themselves as some kind of guru and having some kind of wisdom that other people don't have. I am not that at all.
- [06:34]
Hasan Minhaj
By the way, I love that you caveat that in your book. Yeah, you really do leave.
- [06:38]
Rainn Wilson
I don't have answers. I am just on a journey. This is a reflection of the journey that I've been on. I'm no wiser than anyone else. In fact, I'm a colossal fuck up. So that's number one. But to me, I think I have paid a price for talking a lot about spirituality because I think a lot of the comedy world in Hollywood doesn't know what the fuck to make of a guy who's on a sitcom playing a big weirdo who is talking about God and faith. It just doesn't. It hadn't really happened before.
- [07:09]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. Generally my friends that are involved in the creative arts, they start to pump the brakes when it comes to talking about religion or spirituality because they go, oh God, where is this going? And, and how deep is the well here?
- [07:21]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [07:22]
Hasan Minhaj
And at what point are you trying to share information with me or trying.
- [07:26]
Rainn Wilson
To convert me or trying to convert me to some way of thinking or to a person? Sometimes those lanes are merging or something like that. And let's face it, you know, a lot of talk about spirituality is really weird and off putting and gross and icky feeling. And what does the word spirituality even mean to a lot of people? It means, you know, Pentecostal church on Sunday and at 10am and to a lot of people it's like crystals and incense and chakras and very woo woo angel kind of stuff. And nothing against either of those things. Nothing against church on Sunday and nothing against crystals and incense. But it's such a wide word. Like what does that mean when someone is having conversations about it?
- [08:09]
Hasan Minhaj
What moved you to the point where you go, I do have to in my post office Professional Persona. Have to take on this kind of Oprah guru, like, front facing, this is my life's mission type vibe.
- [08:24]
Rainn Wilson
I'll be as honest with you and as sincere with you as I can possibly be.
- [08:28]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, totally.
- [08:29]
Rainn Wilson
Because spirituality saved my life. And for me, these questions are not just something to be pondered at a dinner party or when you're a little stoned in a college dorm room. Like, why we're alive, the meaning of life. Is there a God? What is the path towards the divine? Saved my life in a deep mental health crisis when I was pondering whether being alive was the right move or not. I'm not saying I was considering suicide, but you know, those deep 3am like, why am I alive? Should I be alive? What's the point of all of this? There was a lot of suffering and anguish through my twenties, so spiritual ideas and a spiritual path to me is it was life and death is really, really important to me. And so talking about it is just something like I have to do to be true to myself. It probably would have been smarter for my career to just play Dwight and do some fun roles and some comedy films and be as kind of as jaded and skeptical and atheistic and materialistic and, you know, cynical as the rest of the comedy community can be. Not all of them, but, you know.
- [09:49]
Hasan Minhaj
It'S interesting because you talked about that. It wasn't always this way. In fact, your parents, your father and your stepmom in the 70s, they were involved in kind of like IRL spiritual community building. They literally would have, hey, do you want to talk about spirituality? People go, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, let's. And they would gather and ponder life's great questions. They literally would sing Kumbaya.
- [10:11]
Rainn Wilson
Yes.
- [10:12]
Hasan Minhaj
Like, this is not a bit. His parents would get together.
- [10:14]
Rainn Wilson
We sang Kumbaya in my living room with like African masks hung on the wall.
- [10:20]
Hasan Minhaj
Not a bit.
- [10:21]
Rainn Wilson
And my stepmom wearing a shawl.
- [10:23]
Hasan Minhaj
Sure.
- [10:24]
Rainn Wilson
And my dad smoking a pipe. And it was very post hippie, bohemian, 70s, kind of incense laden because my parents were members of the Baha'I faith. And one of the great things about the Baha'I faith is how inclusive it is of other spiritual beliefs and paths. So we would invite people of all different faiths. I remember having Buddhist monks in our living room and I remember having born again Christians in our living room and Mormons. And we'd be sharing meditations and prayers and deep conversation.
- [10:54]
Hasan Minhaj
Pretty rad, because in 2025, if you said, do you want to come to my spiritual gathering? The person would Be like, are you talking about an orgy?
- [11:04]
Rainn Wilson
That's probably true.
- [11:05]
Hasan Minhaj
This is true.
- [11:06]
Rainn Wilson
Yes.
- [11:06]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, anytime you mention, like, we're having a spiritual gathering, it's like, okay, it's spring break, you got an Airbnb in Ojai and you want me to do mushrooms? Like, this is, this is kind of the extent of what we're talking about.
- [11:18]
Rainn Wilson
That's pretty much true. I will say that if you were telling, if you were asking someone to come to a spiritual conversation or spiritual gathering 10 years ago, there would be a really much greater skepticism about it now in 2025, ayahuasca aside and microdosing aside and polyamory aside, I mean, that's.
- [11:40]
Hasan Minhaj
98% of what it is in America. But you just said that aside. You got your classics, you got your monotheistic classics.
- [11:47]
Rainn Wilson
But I do think that people are looking for something more. As systems are breaking down, I think people are more and more interested in, in exploring spiritual solutions to big problems, both on the personal level and on a societal level.
- [12:01]
Hasan Minhaj
Now, how do you combat the whole spiritual grifter thing? Because you start pumping out these types of books, you're very close to flirting with that point of, like, when do you want me to put in my credit card number? Like, it's that little, you know. And I'm not saying this is a skeptical thing.
- [12:17]
Rainn Wilson
My producer Karthik is here and we've talked about this a lot because I get a lot of offers, like, hey, you could have a weekend workshop with people. And that sounds fun. And like, oh, and you could provide certain materials and charge extra. And it's like, listen, I made money off a little TV show that you may have heard of. And you know, I don't want to, I don't want to go there. I don't ever want this to be some kind of like money making activity. And like I said, I don't have any answers. I'm on a path of search. I'm on a quest. I want to encourage other people to go on a quest. Let's do it together.
- [12:55]
Hasan Minhaj
What clicked for me when I was reading the book is really what the buy in for me was is. Oh, Rain is really grappling with paradoxes. That's why I find your work to be so interesting. I think. Let's talk about the top level. The top level that's most interesting is the paradox of being an artist in showbiz. So you're grappling with two conflicting ideas. Number one, you have to have humility. And then Simultaneously be incredibly, maniacally selfish. You have to have the humility to humble yourself to the craft, the art form, even the audience and your costars and collaborators, but then also have the narcissism to be like, I should be on screen. I should be the highest on the call sheet. Why isn't this about me? I need to be a sociopath. Yeah, but you have really grappled with that. How have you made sense of.
- [13:54]
Rainn Wilson
That's a very insightful question that could only come from someone in show business, because you're absolutely right. Like, I come from a theater background. I'm here in New York doing some theater. I've been doing some other plays and stuff, and that's where I started. And in theater, you know, philosophically, it's like you're here to serve the play and serve the character and to be part of an ensemble.
- [14:13]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, yeah. But also audition for it and beat all these other people out and play the Zero Song.
- [14:17]
Rainn Wilson
There is that element. But, you know, there is a kind of like an idealism about the theater and a utopianism of, like, this ensemble, and we're all in it together. So that was part of my training. But you're right. Then you get out into the real world, and then you get into auditioning and success and ambition. And that was very corrosive for me, and that caused me a lot of unhappiness. And I've talked about this before on other podcasts, but one of my unhappiest times in my life was being on the Office, because my kind of my ego, ambition just wanted more. Like, why am I only a TV star? How come I'm not a movie star? And how come I'm not getting this deal? And how come, you know, that. That constant spiritual, like, hunger. You know, in Buddhism, they call it the hungry ghost. You know, striving for something more than what you have to you.
- [15:13]
Hasan Minhaj
You struggle with jealousy.
- [15:14]
Rainn Wilson
Struggled with jealousy, sure.
- [15:15]
Hasan Minhaj
Who are you jealous of most of on the Office?
- [15:17]
Rainn Wilson
Mostly Creed.
- [15:19]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, I was going to say Krasinski.
- [15:23]
Rainn Wilson
I know. Honestly, in all honesty, I didn't really have envy. And really, since saying this, for Steve or for John or Ed Helms or were having larger movie careers than me, it was really like, people not on the Office, just kind of like. It wasn't even that. It wasn't like, look, why am I not having the career that.
- [15:45]
Hasan Minhaj
I don't want to make you uncomfortable. Let me tell you who I'm jealous of, and maybe that'll loosen this up.
- [15:50]
Rainn Wilson
I'm not. I'M being honest with you. There's no loosening up here. I would say right now, like, John Krasinski can suck it. No, I was so. I loved my castmates and was so happy for their success. I just wanted more myself.
- [16:08]
Hasan Minhaj
Got it. But what do you do with that feeling?
- [16:10]
Rainn Wilson
Well, this is a great spiritual test. Cause it's not just for actors. You can be an accountant, you can be a marketing manager, and you can have feelings of like, even when you achieve great success, even when you get the raise and the promotion that you always wanted, there's always that something more just outside of your grasp. And that constant grasping and clutching for something more is one of the central tenets of Buddhism about what makes us so unhappy as human beings. And this is, you know, it's an essential foundational spiritual struggle for all people. And it really has to do with, you know, everything I need, I have right now. And I'm taking a breath right now. I am enough. I have everything that I need right now. And that really is true for 99% of the human population.
- [17:05]
Hasan Minhaj
Do you still struggle with that? Can you still breathe and go, I'm enough?
- [17:10]
Rainn Wilson
I struggle with it so much less. Occasionally I get twinges of like, am I a washed up, one hit wonder sitcom actor? And has Hollywood cast me away? Will I never work again? You know, I get that twang. I'm like, yeah. And then it goes away because I've got lots of projects and books and fun things and acting to do, so it's all fine.
- [17:37]
Hasan Minhaj
But yeah, you know, an interesting convo that I've had with people is they describe exploring spirituality when they were younger. And they go, now I'm living a creative life. And they see having a creative life and having a spiritual life as two different things that exist in conflict. Both you and I, we live a creative life. We explore our spirituality and our spiritual backgrounds. Why do you think people think those two things are in conflict?
- [18:06]
Rainn Wilson
Well, we live in a culture where everything is put into very different buckets. So, you know, our religious life is, you know, church on Sundays. Our hobby and our passion is what we do on Sunday afternoons. You know, our family is what we do around dinner time. And nature is something that we fit in for a week during the summer. And so there's. It's very fractured. And humanity for most of its existence, for the first hundred thousand years of humanity, all of those things were one. Creativity, nature, family, society, faith, communing with something divine. They were all interwoven. You can read about this in any kind of indigenous philosophy. And it's only now that things are fractured and segmented. I believe that the creative impulse is a spiritual impulse and that everyone is creative, everyone is an artist in some way, shape, or form, and that we emulate the divine by seeking to create something where there was nothing. It's the big bang. There was nothing. And then there was an explosion of life and molecules and solar systems, and there's a blank page, there's an empty stage. Now there's a poem, now there's a dance, now there's a play, now there's a film, now there's a song that is an emulation of that divine spark. And in both of our faith traditions, God is called the. The fashioner. And there's something powerful about being a fashioner, and it is a spiritual act. So part of it for me was like, I always had this dichotomy, like, why am I this actor playing these weird characters? And then why am I a closet Oprah? You know, like, how do I marry those two things? And then realizing, like, hey, you know, playing a character like Dwight Schrute is me transforming myself, my ungainly, weird, suburban, white self into an ungainly, weird, suburban, white character on a TV show and making people laugh and telling stories and creating memorable situations. And there is a service component in that. And there is actually, you know, at risk of sounding really like, what's the word? Snobby.
- [20:30]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. Snobby. Navel gazing.
- [20:31]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah. Like egotistical. There is something beautiful about that. And no, it is. So it's. For me, it's trying to marry all of it.
- [20:41]
Hasan Minhaj
Did you.
- [20:41]
Rainn Wilson
Now, let me ask you a question.
- [20:42]
Hasan Minhaj
Sure.
- [20:43]
Rainn Wilson
You're a muslim.
- [20:44]
Hasan Minhaj
Yes.
- [20:45]
Rainn Wilson
Do you find a kind of a divide between your muslim life and your stand up comedy life and your artistic life? Do you find a rift there or are you able to kind of like connect the dots?
- [20:59]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. I mean, if you're practicing, it's pretty all encompassing. You know, the itunes user agreement for Islam is pretty. It's pretty dotted up. There's a lot you gotta do to clear to you here. So I struggled for a long time thinking they were two different things. One was like more of a worldly pursuit. One of them was a more spiritual pursuit. And then as I got older and funny enough, it was like the comedy community and other artists that put me onto understanding the ancient wisdom of what I do. So what I mean by that is I'd be doing standup comedy, and then as I got older and then other comedians and collaborators and writers and improvisers got older, they would be like, oh, I love roomy poetry. And I'm like, yeah. Wait, what? You're Talking about the 11th century poet Rumi? Oh, yeah. Like I have a tattoo. And it's, you know, I started to then tap into the other great Urdu poetry and other kind of historical Islamic art that is very, very popular. So, you know, my parents are from India, so Shiree, poetry, kawali, these are like very, very highly respected art forms. And so my trips, when I would go back to India and then experience and hang out with other musicians, artists, poets and authors. Yeah. You start to see that, oh, these two things were like.
- [22:16]
Rainn Wilson
But you're doing jokes about kids hugging grandparents.
- [22:18]
Hasan Minhaj
Sure.
- [22:18]
Rainn Wilson
You're not doing poetry.
- [22:19]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah.
- [22:20]
Rainn Wilson
No offense.
- [22:20]
Hasan Minhaj
No, no, no, it's not.
- [22:22]
Rainn Wilson
But how do you. So how do you connect those.
- [22:24]
Hasan Minhaj
But you're still. Okay. So like one of the great kawali singers is a guy, Nusrat Ali Fathi Khan. Like, if you're a, if you're a Kawali fan, he's like arguably one of the greatest kawali singers ever. But Shirey and poetry, you're just putting together sentences. You're basically putting together bars. And when you go to a kawali night or a Shiree night, at the end of like a couplet, like the audience goes, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. They go, oh, wow, wow. Like they, oh, nice to give it up.
- [22:51]
Rainn Wilson
Nice. Yeah.
- [22:52]
Hasan Minhaj
So that you put together an argument about the beloved or the divine or the nature of reality. And people are like, oh, that's a good point. Which is essentially what stand up is. You're putting together a very, a clever argument or distillation of the human.
- [23:08]
Rainn Wilson
And then when you get that payoff.
- [23:09]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. That's the wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. Say it.
- [23:15]
Rainn Wilson
But at risk of sounding pretentious. There is an element of the artist that's like the shaman where. And the. And there's certainly stand ups do it more than, than actors, which is speaking the truth to power, speaking the truth to culture. Having one connection to the divine.
- [23:30]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah.
- [23:31]
Rainn Wilson
Another connection to the ancestors.
- [23:33]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. And then my. And then my favorite comics will do. Do something like that. And then they'll also cut it with like a dick joke, a fart joke, you know?
- [23:41]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah. I imagine the great shamans told dick and fart jokes back in the cave illumined by firelight after the day of the hunt.
- [23:49]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, yeah. But I was, I was like literally rapping with our producer PV about this One of the worst parts of anything that becomes too academic. You become like a, like a brain just sitting in like a vat.
- [24:00]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah.
- [24:01]
Hasan Minhaj
Almost like, you know, you become Krang and Ninja Turtles and the Great comics, another 90s reference. Yeah, but the great comics are able to, yeah, like tell very cerebral jokes, but then also talk about sex and love and farting and fucking and just all the things that make you human.
- [24:19]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah.
- [24:20]
Hasan Minhaj
You know, you have a section of your book called yo atheists on page 79. What are the atheists missing?
- [24:27]
Rainn Wilson
I love the atheists for a number of different reasons. They're natural skeptics. They're gonna seek the truth for themselves. They're not gonna just inherit some kind of belief system that's handed down from grandparents and great, great grandparents. They're going to figure out the truth for themselves. They're science based and have a natural kind of curiosity. And I think all of those things are really important. What are atheists missing? I think they're missing a deeper connection to why. Why are we alive? Why are we here? Why do we have consciousness? Why do we have a kind of a consciousness that we don't need to have? We don't need to have the ability to have dialogue like we're having right now. We. To promote the species and propagate the species. We just need a consciousness that allows us to kind of like be much closer to, you know, some kind of monkey or ape, you know, and fuck and have basic social structures. And the miracle of consciousness to me is one of the proofs that, that by the way, science has no possible way of understanding. And I can see the comments happening right now, but it's true. The idea that you could do some kind of brain scan and try and understand exactly how and why we feel things and remember things and create operas and long to go into the stars and weep when we're holding a baby. And are each one of us here participating in a kind of a 3D surround sound movie that we're walking in is proof of the miraculousness of life. Not to mention the fact that if the planet Earth was 100 miles further from the sun, we'd all be dead. If it was 100 miles closer to the sun, we'd all be dead. That it has exactly the right oxygen levels, that everything in the universe is aligned for us to have life and for us to have consciousness and to be having this conversation right now. And there is a miraculousness to that that goes beyond kind of mere materialism.
- [26:41]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. And I've gotten into really Interesting conversations with atheists that I love. And I have some in my family that I'm related to and very, very close friends that are atheists. They've raised the question of, well, my issue is with organized religion and why do my morality, my ethics and social jurisprudence have to be navigated through a particular organized religion and faith? And I've always thought that's like an interesting thing. It's an interesting question that they raise for me. I do need the guilt.
- [27:12]
Rainn Wilson
You need it?
- [27:13]
Hasan Minhaj
Oh, I need it.
- [27:13]
Rainn Wilson
It helps you.
- [27:14]
Hasan Minhaj
It helps me, yeah.
- [27:15]
Rainn Wilson
If you didn't have it, what would happen? You'd go off the rails, be crazy.
- [27:19]
Hasan Minhaj
It'd be crazy. It'd be nuts.
- [27:21]
Rainn Wilson
People hear the word morality and they cringe for a good reason, because morality has been used as a bludgeoning tool for centuries to try and keep people in line and keep them in guilt and shame. But at the same time, we've swung the pendulum the other direction where some kind of greater morality seems to not exist in contemporary Western thought. That morality is just what we all agree on is right, and morality is essentially what feels right or doesn't feel right. You know, I'm a member of a faith. I'm a member of the Baha'I faith, and I'm a card carrying member. I've signed up. I love it.
- [28:02]
Hasan Minhaj
You guys have cards?
- [28:03]
Rainn Wilson
We have cards.
- [28:04]
Hasan Minhaj
Stop.
- [28:04]
Rainn Wilson
Really?
- [28:05]
Hasan Minhaj
Like a driver's license?
- [28:06]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah.
- [28:07]
Hasan Minhaj
No way.
- [28:07]
Rainn Wilson
I have a number. I have a Baha'I ID number. 011-3356.
- [28:13]
Hasan Minhaj
Don't just say it.
- [28:14]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah, what you can hack, you can hack it. My account, my Baha'I account, it's fine.
- [28:19]
Hasan Minhaj
That's crazy. This is nuts.
- [28:21]
Rainn Wilson
But for me, we've lost so much by jettisoning organized religion. And what it gives you is community and mission, belonging and being a part of something greater than yourself and providing a lot of, like, services and support as you go along that journey. And if you're casting all that away because there's great hypocrisy in a lot of the world's great organized religions, and there is, and it's for a very good reason, then what are we throwing out? I say in the book, like, what's.
- [29:01]
Hasan Minhaj
What was your tool for keeping the good stuff and then kind of hit and delete on the stuff that you felt to be antiquated, cruel, or mean.
- [29:09]
Rainn Wilson
First of all, I don't think that in the Baha'I faith there's stuff that's antiquated, cruel and mean. Okay? So for me, in my faith tradition, There are some things about the faith I wish were different, you know, and it's not. I don't think it's perfect as it stands right now. And for a lot of people, they have a kind of thing like, well, the faith needs to be perfect for me to align with it. But do you do that with your job? Is your job perfect and otherwise you're not gonna work, you know, is your family perfect? Otherwise you're not gonna have a family. But somehow people want their faith system to be like, absolutely. To not have any kind of flaw or blemish in it in order for them to be a member of it. So that's a weird kind of.
- [29:52]
Hasan Minhaj
This is kind of. This is nerding out. And by the way, I'm telling my producers, we can cut this if this is not. If this is too much or if I'm being weird. I've always had my.
- [30:00]
Rainn Wilson
I'm telling the producers, do not cut this under any circumstances. You are not allowed to cut this.
- [30:06]
Hasan Minhaj
Okay?
- [30:07]
Rainn Wilson
I'm going to TMZ with some bad shit if any of this gets cut. That's what I'm saying to the producers.
- [30:13]
Hasan Minhaj
All right? This is my relationship with God. I have a very friend. There's the friendly relationship versus the fire and brimstone. I always erred friendly. Here's what I mean by that. In Islam, premarital sex is a no. No sex before marriage. No.
- [30:27]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah.
- [30:28]
Hasan Minhaj
But for me, I was just like, God, you get it, dude.
- [30:34]
Rainn Wilson
I was exactly get it. I was exactly the same way. I'm like, come on.
- [30:39]
Hasan Minhaj
Like, he gets it. He gets it.
- [30:41]
Rainn Wilson
Look at me.
- [30:42]
Hasan Minhaj
He gets it.
- [30:43]
Rainn Wilson
I'm 19. She is wanting to have sex. What would you seriously got? Seriously?
- [30:49]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. So in that I'm going to say.
- [30:50]
Rainn Wilson
No right now, I'm like, he gets it.
- [30:52]
Hasan Minhaj
He gets it. God gets it.
- [30:55]
Rainn Wilson
God gets it.
- [30:55]
Hasan Minhaj
And he's with me.
- [30:56]
Rainn Wilson
In the Baha'I faith, the morality is not like a fire and brimstone. There's not a concept of hell. You're not gonna burn in hell for breaking laws. And it's the same kind of chastity laws in the Baha'I faith. They're there for our guidance. Because the truth is, you know, too many hookups can lead 1, 2. A lot of, like.
- [31:17]
Hasan Minhaj
Correct. And I totally get it.
- [31:19]
Rainn Wilson
Misery.
- [31:19]
Hasan Minhaj
A lot of misery. Yeah.
- [31:20]
Rainn Wilson
And confusion.
- [31:21]
Hasan Minhaj
And I was just saying in this moment.
- [31:23]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah.
- [31:24]
Hasan Minhaj
My sophomore year of college with Rebecca. We're not even gonna name names. I've gotten a lot of trouble about doing this via my comedy.
- [31:31]
Rainn Wilson
Okay. You've named actual names?
- [31:35]
Hasan Minhaj
I'm not. I've always switched names, but it's been a whole hullabaloo. Okay, you can Google it. Now, in this scenario, I know it's bad when we take it too far, but in this scenario.
- [31:46]
Rainn Wilson
Right.
- [31:47]
Hasan Minhaj
God gets it.
- [31:48]
Rainn Wilson
He gets it.
- [31:48]
Hasan Minhaj
He gets it.
- [31:49]
Rainn Wilson
Cool.
- [31:51]
Hasan Minhaj
This part of the show is called editorial pushback. As you know, in podcasting, oftentimes people say the host did not push back on the guest enough. So let me.
- [32:00]
Rainn Wilson
Okay, uh.
- [32:00]
Hasan Minhaj
Oh, let me push back. Here we go. This is my theory. Whichever religion you pursue is based on how well your life is going. So for someone like you, very successful white person. Oh, Buddhism, meditation. You guys love a post economic white person. Gwyneth Paltrow, Rainn Wilson, Katy Perry. Just love it.
- [32:19]
Rainn Wilson
Spirituality is a luxury.
- [32:21]
Hasan Minhaj
Kind of like subscribing to goop or something. Like you in asana in Santa Barbara. Instagram, Carousel. Finding your chakra. Yeah.
- [32:27]
Rainn Wilson
A marble vagina roller or something like that.
- [32:30]
Hasan Minhaj
Totally, totally, yes. Now, when things are going really bad, you come to Islam. I'm talking about Mike Tyson. I'm talking about Lindsay Lohan. I'm talking about Andrew Tate. You take the Shahada. How many DUIs do you have? Take the shahada, Andrew Tate, of course, brother. Brother Tate.
- [32:49]
Rainn Wilson
Brother Tate. Now. Wow.
- [32:52]
Hasan Minhaj
He took shahada.
- [32:53]
Rainn Wilson
Is he a haji? Is he Haji Tate?
- [32:55]
Hasan Minhaj
No, because he's in prison. Well, he is facing Romanian sentencing possibly. But look.
- [33:01]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:02]
Hasan Minhaj
Lil Jon took shahada. Yes, he did. Yes, he did.
- [33:06]
Rainn Wilson
I love it.
- [33:06]
Hasan Minhaj
Yep. I mean, yeah, yeah. It really is the scared strait of the Abrahamic faiths.
- [33:14]
Rainn Wilson
I love that.
- [33:15]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, we're there for.
- [33:17]
Rainn Wilson
I love that. And I don't disagree. And I think Islam is a beautiful and very viable path to finding.
- [33:25]
Hasan Minhaj
There is a reason called the last message. Because really, when you're. You're on one of your last.
- [33:32]
Rainn Wilson
Well, there's nothing I hate worse than the kind of like LA vision of spirituality as this kind of like solipsistic chakra and yoga class, goop leaning, kind of New Agey spirituality that's very vague and kind of expensive and is like a hobby that you practice in your off hours that simply, simply is there to kind of reduce your own anxiety on a daily basis by a certain percentage. And it's because part of having faith is being of service to others. So you. You tap into your belief and you have a certain measure of surrender so that you can help other people. And that New age way of being with spirituality is completely narcissistic. And so, you know, I agree with that completely. But I, you know, for me, I came to spirituality because I was in anguish and I had mental health crisis and I had addiction crisis and I was searching for meaning and some kind of mooring of like, why am I fucking alive? And so I don't think you need to be have office residuals to experience that, you know, and if you go into any 12 step meeting, you're there with, you know, truck drivers and, you know, custodians and, you know, hitting bottom is a. Is a universal.
- [35:06]
Hasan Minhaj
Indeed it is. You know, it's funny, I was watching the super bowl halftime show when Kendrick just unloaded the clip on Drake and I was like, it's only a matter of time until Aubrey joins.
- [35:23]
Rainn Wilson
That's really good. That's really good. Bravo. Come on, let's give him the gospel.
- [35:28]
Hasan Minhaj
I mean, it's not a.
- [35:29]
Rainn Wilson
Come on. If you're clapping it.
- [35:30]
Hasan Minhaj
That's a good point.
- [35:31]
Rainn Wilson
That was good.
- [35:32]
Hasan Minhaj
I mean, it is gonna happen. You ever seen those Deadline.com articles? It's got like an opinion column, why I'm leaving show business. I was the anonymous person that said, have you tried Islam? Multi paragraphs. So you've written. The part that appeals to you most about your Baha'I faith is that it's both inward and outward. What does that mean?
- [35:51]
Rainn Wilson
Well, there's a kind of belief system inherent in the Baha'I faith, and I do believe that it's inherent in Islam and real Buddhism and Christianity.
- [36:02]
Hasan Minhaj
How come you say Islam so perfectly but you always say Muslim like you're a Fox News host? What is with people?
- [36:09]
Rainn Wilson
They hit the bourbon. Seattle.
- [36:10]
Hasan Minhaj
You hit the layup in stride, but then Muslim is like, you're about to announce a drone strike. Like, what's going on? As opposed to Muslim.
- [36:17]
Rainn Wilson
Muslim. Yeah. And I say Muslim, you go Muslim. Muslim. Muslim.
- [36:23]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah.
- [36:23]
Rainn Wilson
Can it just.
- [36:24]
Hasan Minhaj
There's 2 billion Muslims.
- [36:26]
Rainn Wilson
Muslims.
- [36:27]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:28]
Rainn Wilson
Muslims.
- [36:29]
Hasan Minhaj
No, Muslim.
- [36:30]
Rainn Wilson
Muslims.
- [36:30]
Hasan Minhaj
Muslim.
- [36:31]
Rainn Wilson
Muslims.
- [36:32]
Hasan Minhaj
Muslim.
- [36:32]
Rainn Wilson
Muslims.
- [36:33]
Hasan Minhaj
Just hit it with the Muslims.
- [36:34]
Rainn Wilson
Muslims.
- [36:35]
Hasan Minhaj
Sami.
- [36:35]
Rainn Wilson
Sami.
- [36:36]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. Mus.
- [36:37]
Rainn Wilson
Muslims.
- [36:38]
Hasan Minhaj
Yes.
- [36:39]
Rainn Wilson
Can I blame it on suburban Seattle? I don't know.
- [36:42]
Hasan Minhaj
I think you probably blame it on the news. Yeah, yeah, I know a lot of Muslims. I don't know any Muslims.
- [36:48]
Rainn Wilson
Muslims. Oh, I see. Muslims. Muslims or you guys?
- [36:52]
Hasan Minhaj
You hit it with the muzz. You hit it with the Muslims. What a time, right? So you learned. You literally learned something new.
- [37:00]
Rainn Wilson
I really did. And thanks for calling me on that. I'm gonna work on that.
- [37:02]
Hasan Minhaj
I'm not calling you.
- [37:03]
Rainn Wilson
It's all good. What were we talking about?
- [37:07]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, I don't know what we were talking about.
- [37:08]
Rainn Wilson
In every spiritual tradition.
- [37:10]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah.
- [37:11]
Rainn Wilson
There is a twofold moral purpose that we're given a moral charge.
- [37:17]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah.
- [37:18]
Rainn Wilson
The spiritual path insists on us bettering ourselves, becoming more wise, more kind, more compassionate.
- [37:29]
Hasan Minhaj
Yes.
- [37:29]
Rainn Wilson
And there's prayer and meditation. There's contemplation. There's study of sacred texts. There's kind of an examination of one's life. There's, you know, examining the idea that someday we'll be dead, we'll meet our maker, we're going to have that conversation. And then there's another aspect to spirituality, which is how do we take what we've learned? How do we take that wisdom and put it to work to make the world a better place? And there is a moral charge to reduce and relieve the suffering of others. And this is central to Buddhism and Islam and the Baha'I faith, which is we have a charge to help humanity move forward and make the world a better place. It's not just enough to kind of grow kinder and wiser and sit on our cul de sac and let that be enough. So this is the inward and outward. In the book, I talk about the two TV shows. I talk about Kung Fu from the 1970s. One of my favorite TV shows in Star Trek, because Kung Fu is about the inner path, you know, Kwai Cheng Kane walking this kind of racist, chaotic cowboy world and seeking to spread wisdom. And then Star Trek is really this utopian vision of humanity moving forward with greater and greater kind of maturity.
- [38:50]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah. We have explored some really deep, profound, meaningful philosophical discussions today.
- [38:58]
Rainn Wilson
Okay.
- [38:59]
Hasan Minhaj
And that's been really awesome, but it's terrible for social media.
- [39:02]
Rainn Wilson
Yeah.
- [39:03]
Hasan Minhaj
I want to play a game with you called Feed size Wisdom, because we gotta. You've been doing these long walks.
- [39:10]
Rainn Wilson
Okay.
- [39:11]
Hasan Minhaj
People are doing this.
- [39:13]
Rainn Wilson
Sure.
- [39:13]
Hasan Minhaj
I need you to give it to me in just an Instagram reel level.
- [39:19]
Rainn Wilson
Okay, here we go.
- [39:20]
Hasan Minhaj
Okay, here we go. I'm gonna ask you some of life's big questions, all right. And you're gonna distill thousands of years of wisdom.
- [39:25]
Rainn Wilson
Okay.
- [39:25]
Hasan Minhaj
In essentially 15 seconds. Or.
- [39:27]
Rainn Wilson
Here we go.
- [39:27]
Hasan Minhaj
Here we go. Do we have free will?
- [39:29]
Rainn Wilson
Yes, we have free will. And this is a test from the divine. So do with it as you will.
- [39:34]
Hasan Minhaj
Do we have a purpose?
- [39:35]
Rainn Wilson
Yes, we have a purpose to increase our wisdom and to serve others.
- [39:41]
Hasan Minhaj
Is there such thing as true love or a soulmate?
- [39:43]
Rainn Wilson
No. Yes and no. Yes, there is true love, and no, there's not a soulmate. There's many people that we could mate with, but true seeking true love. See, I can't do it in a short bite.
- [39:56]
Hasan Minhaj
Why? Why not? I don't know.
- [39:57]
Rainn Wilson
It's a longer conversation. Come on, Hassan.
- [40:00]
Hasan Minhaj
The people are now on to the next thing.
- [40:03]
Rainn Wilson
We lost them.
- [40:04]
Hasan Minhaj
Yeah, we lost them. Let's get back on track. Here we go.
- [40:07]
Rainn Wilson
Okay.
- [40:07]
Hasan Minhaj
What makes a civilization flourish quickly?
- [40:09]
Rainn Wilson
A civilization flourishes from the.
- [40:13]
Hasan Minhaj
God damn it. Get to it. Make it a fucking carousel. Yes. Yes. Is there an absolute morality or do we create our own?
- [40:24]
Rainn Wilson
There's an absolute morality and it's God given. There, I said it.
- [40:28]
Hasan Minhaj
Are we noble beings or suck it. Yes, fucking suck it. If you don't believe it, suck it. Are we noble beings? Are we just animals? In our essence?
- [40:36]
Rainn Wilson
We're both. We're noble beings and animals. That's the rub and that's the challenge.
- [40:45]
Hasan Minhaj
What's the one true faith and why is it Islam?
- [40:49]
Rainn Wilson
Because there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.
- [40:52]
Hasan Minhaj
Thank you so much. Rainn Wilson, ladies and gentlemen.
- [40:56]
Rainn Wilson
Hassan Minhaj, ladies and gentlemen.