Why are Women Obsessed with Murder? with Crime Junkie Ashley Flowers

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why are Women Obsessed with Murder? with Crime Junkie Ashley Flowers"

Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know hosted by Hasan Minhaj features a captivating conversation with Ashley Flowers, the founder of the widely acclaimed true crime podcast Crime Junkie. This episode delves into the societal fascination with murder, particularly among women, explores safety and preparedness, discusses the ethical consumption of true crime content, and highlights Ashley’s advocacy work and her new fiction novel.

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Introduction to Ashley Flowers and Crime Junkie

Ashley's journey into the world of true crime began from a place of personal curiosity and advocacy. As the host explains, "there is no bigger titan of that industry than Ashley Flowers. She founded the podcast network Audio Chuck and its flagship show, Crime Junkie" (00:36). Crime Junkie has amassed millions of listeners globally, making it one of the most popular true crime podcasts.

Notable Quote:

"I'm so thrilled to do this. Thank you for being on the show."
— Hasan Minhaj (02:16)

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Understanding the Female Fascination with Murder

The core discussion revolves around why women, in particular, exhibit a strong interest in murder and true crime stories. Ashley attributes this fascination to a fundamental human desire for order and understanding in the face of chaos.

Key Points:

• Desire for Order: "We have this desire to find order even when order doesn't exist." (05:36)
• Personal Connection: Many women seek to understand and find explanations for the violence they witness or experience.
• Hyper Vigilance: Ashley highlights that this keen awareness often stems from personal experiences and the need to feel prepared.

Notable Quote:

"We just want to know what went wrong. What could I do differently?"
— Ashley Flowers (05:36)

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Safety and Preparedness for Women

The conversation shifts to practical measures women can take to ensure their safety. Ashley introduces concepts like the "if I go missing folder," which provides comprehensive information for loved ones in case of an emergency.

Key Points:

• Preparedness Tools: Detailed protocols and information storage to aid in finding missing persons.
• Listener Impact: Many listeners have shared stories of how these tools have helped them in real-life situations.
• Behavioral Changes: Encouraging women to prioritize their safety over politeness in potentially dangerous situations.

Notable Quote:

"If you go missing, you're gone for days. People need to recognize that version of you."
— Hasan Minhaj (38:36)

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Mainstream Media and True Crime's Role in Society

Ashley discusses the dual nature of true crime as both entertainment and a platform for education and advocacy. While true crime satisfies a voyeuristic curiosity, it also raises awareness about critical issues like domestic violence and the shortcomings of law enforcement.

Key Points:

• Entertainment vs. Advocacy: Balancing engaging storytelling with meaningful social impact.
• Educational Content: Integrating expert interviews and practical advice within true crime narratives.
• Community Engagement: Encouraging listeners to participate in solving cases and supporting advocacy initiatives.

Notable Quote:

"We call it being preparanoid. It's like everyone makes you feel like you're paranoid."
— Ashley Flowers (08:28)

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Advocacy and Nonprofit Initiatives

Recognizing the gap between technological advancements in solving crimes and the limited resources available to law enforcement, Ashley co-founded Season of Justice. This nonprofit aims to fund critical investigative tools, such as genetic genealogy, to aid in solving cold cases.

Key Points:

• Funding Solutions: Providing financial support for advanced investigative techniques.
• Collaboration with Law Enforcement: Streamlining the grant submission process for police departments.
• Impact: Facilitating breakthroughs in cases that were previously unsolvable due to budget constraints.

Notable Quote:

"We will fund the labs directly. Law enforcement just submits a grant."
— Ashley Flowers (26:08)

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Ashley Flowers' New Fiction Novel: The Missing Half

Expanding her repertoire, Ashley introduces her new fiction novel, The Missing Half. The book mirrors her expertise in true crime, offering a fictional yet gripping mystery that resonates with her audience.

Key Points:

• Inspiration: Drawing from her extensive experience in true crime to craft engaging narratives.
• Character Development: Creating relatable and dynamic characters who embody the complexities of real-life investigations.
• Audience Engagement: Catering to both true crime enthusiasts and fiction readers by blending elements of both genres.

Notable Quote:

"I have to fight to write my first fiction novel because people only want true crime from me."
— Ashley Flowers (34:52)

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The Future and Purpose of Crime Junkie

Ashley expresses a profound sense of purpose in her work, emphasizing the importance of intentional consumption of true crime content. Her goal is to transform passive listening into active community involvement and empowerment.

Key Points:

• Purpose-Driven Content: Creating content that not only entertains but also educates and mobilizes listeners.
• Community Empowerment: Encouraging activism and participation in local issues through the platform provided by Crime Junkie.
• Personal Fulfillment: Ashley feels deeply connected to her mission, viewing it as her true calling.

Notable Quote:

"I feel like I have found the thing I was meant to do. I am in my best one."
— Ashley Flowers (43:16)

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Conclusion

This episode of Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know offers an insightful exploration into the psychology behind the fascination with murder, the societal implications of true crime media, and the impactful work of Ashley Flowers in advocating for justice and safety. Through engaging dialogue and thoughtful analysis, Hasan and Ashley shed light on the complex interplay between entertainment, education, and activism in the realm of true crime.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Hasan Minhaj: "Why do women Stan murder?" (05:36)
• Ashley Flowers: "It's about understanding the why, even if there is no why." (05:36)
• Ashley Flowers: "We have to be aware of our surroundings and prioritize our safety." (08:28)
• Ashley Flowers: "True crime can be consumed without causing more harm." (41:59)
• Ashley Flowers: "I feel like I am in my best one." (43:16)

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights shared by Hasan Minhaj and Ashley Flowers, providing valuable takeaways for both true crime enthusiasts and those interested in societal safety and advocacy.

Transcript

[Ashley Flowers]

Hi, everyone, it's Nicole Wallace from msnbc. Listen to my new podcast called the Best People. I get to speak to some of the smartest, funniest and wisest people I have ever encountered. People like Cara Swisher, Rachel Maddow, Doc Rivers, Jason Bateman, Jeff Daniels, and Sarah Jessica Parker. They'll often say, hey, Kerry, you know, they'll call me Carrie. And that's all right too.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The Best People with Nicole Wallace. New episodes drop Mondays. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ashley Flowers]

Lemonade.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Americans love three things above all. God, slow cooked meat and murder. In fact, murder has become critical for America's economy as the raw material of our most important American export, true crime podcasts. And there is no bigger titan of that industry than Ashley Flowers. She founded the podcast network Audio Chuck and its flagship show, Crime Junkie. It's probably the most listened to true crime podcast in the world with millions of listeners listening every week. This is an army of murder hungry maniacs who cannot get enough of stabbing, strangling and disemboweling. And look, I'm not going to judge you if you're into that, but I am judging you a little bit because honestly, I don't understand this obsession with murder that every woman in my life has. So I sat down with Ashley to try to understand this trend, to ask her whether she'd prefer to be stuck in a forest with a man or a bear, and to talk about her new novel, the Missing Half. This is gonna be so fun. Am I the first interview of the day for you?

[Ashley Flowers]

I just did today's show.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How was it?

[Ashley Flowers]

It was good.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It goes by too fast.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's really fast.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's too fast. It's great. You're gonna be in every dentist office, like, around the country.

[Ashley Flowers]

I know. And I was mostly talking about other podcasts, so. Oh, I gave you a shout out. Yeah, I had to give like five podcast recs, so rec.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, hey, there we go.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, if we want to lighten things up a bit and laugh, what do you recommend? So that would be Hasan Minhaj doesn't know she's hilarious. So he is an award winning comedian. He brings people on his show. Politicians, entrepreneurs, talking about their expertise, their journey, their culture. You get a lot of really surprising stories from these people, though. Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. Ashley Flowers, thank you so much for doing this.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. We went deep. We're gonna go deep. We're gonna cover your whole empire. I'm so thrilled to do this. Thank you for being on the show.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, of course.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now, as we Were doing research for this interview. I decided to go on your website.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. Now, we found this pop up on your website where you get the opportunity.

[Ashley Flowers]

To text the Ashley flowers.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So if you go to the website, this pops up. Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

On crimejunkiepodcast.com it says, text Ashley.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I was like, yeah, sure, I'll text her.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We haven't formally met, but I want to get to know Ashley. So I gave you my full cell phone number because I feel like I can trust you on your website.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And it started off, we got to talking, so you go, hey, it's Ashley. Tap the link to add yourself to my contact so we can chat and I can keep you updated on the latest.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I go, cool. Ashley, what's your favorite color? Yeah, simple icebreaker, Easy icebreaker.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You didn't respond. I was like, oh, this is classic Ashley. So I had to follow up. I go, ashley, are you there?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And then you responded and you're like, I love yellow and orange. I go, okay, all right. Now, I personally felt this response. Yellow and orange, a bit non committal.

[Ashley Flowers]

Oh, okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So I asked for specificity. I go, I'm sorry, you can only choose one. And you responded with, let's go yellow. Okay, now we're vibing. And I was like, let me ask her a personal question that's maybe cuts a bit deeper.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Because I need to know, is this really Ashley or not?

[Ashley Flowers]

Sure. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So I go, who's your favorite stand up comedian? And you haven't responded.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So who's your favorite stand up comedian?

[Ashley Flowers]

John Mulaney.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I knew it was gonna be. I knew it was gonna be John. I knew it was gonna be John Mulaney. I was like, it's gonna be John Mulaney or Nate Borgazzi. And is that really you?

[Ashley Flowers]

So 50. 50. So you'll. I've got a team there because yesterday I've been in New York doing press, so I can't answer the text all the time, but I am in there all the time.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

Like sending selfies to fans, talking to them. What a lot of people maybe don't know or should know by now. I mention it a lot. Is the first employee I ever hired before I had people helping me write research. Edit was a fan engagement person.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's what I think is magical about podcasting and what I think is so important in growing any kind of business where you value community is having constant contact or as much as you can with your fans.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Because there were spelling mistakes in It. So I'm like, this is Ashley. But then also, all my friends do text me back. Message and data rates do apply. So that is a human thing to do.

[Ashley Flowers]

We have to with the service.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

So it doesn't go to my personal cell phone. We actually have to use the system. Otherwise my personal cell phone would be blowing up.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, fun games aside, here's why I'm here. Okay, you obviously are one of the queens of true crime. You have the crime junkie podcast empire. You also have the audio Chuck Empire going. But, Ashley, the reason why I wanted to sit down with you today is to ask you this question that I think a lot of men want to know, which is, why do women Stan murder?

[Ashley Flowers]

Because we keep getting murdered. You know, there's part of. I just think human nature, not women. But we have this desire to find order even when order doesn't exist. And so these, like, mysteries, you want to solve the puzzle. You want to understand the why, even if there is no why. Because that's just what our brains need, that we're trying to find order for women specifically. I mean, I was always looking for, well, what went wrong? Like, what could I do differently? Was there something here that could have changed the outcomes? I think it was this, like, hyper vigilance that I always had, and it's a big part of our show now in the education that we do.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But why specifically murder but not vehicular manslaughter? Like, why does it have to be.

[Ashley Flowers]

Like, yeah, right, right, right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But not.

[Ashley Flowers]

Because I think that those are the complicated ones. And this goes back to the mystery. It's like vehicular manslaughter. Like, there's nothing you can do other than, you know, not be walking on the side of the road in the middle of the night when there's, you know, more drunk drivers than maybe in the middle of the afternoon. Whereas a lot of the stories that we talk about are very personal in nature. And those, like, personal, complex relationships are what, like, end up leading to this thing happening?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is there something about the lived experience as a woman? Is there a part of it to raise awareness? It's almost like a female PSA of, hey, the world is dangerous. You need to know how to navigate.

[Ashley Flowers]

In a. I think it's a human psa. I think there's a lot of takeaways in. I mean, we have these crime junkie life rules, and I think our first one ever was, you never really know anyone ever. I think there are parts of people that they keep hidden from everyone, and there are Varying degrees of it. But your innermost thoughts, like your. And we very.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But actually, that feels so sad.

[Ashley Flowers]

No, it's rule number one.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You know, no one. You truly will never know.

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't think it's like, I don't know sad or realistic. Like, I just think what you. The truth of the matter is it's not that you don't know them. It's. You rarely get to see people in desperate situations. And so what you don't know, because I think a lot of people don't recognize this about themselves is like, what would you do in a desperate situation? And how people respond can be surprising, I think, even based on their character and who you thought they were and who you knew for years and years.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, what's interesting is a lot of my guy friends aren't into true crime, but they are into the zombie apocalypse TV show for the same reason of what would you do in that scenario?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Do you feel like your female listeners sometimes may feel a sense of validation from the. The. The topics?

[Ashley Flowers]

Absolutely.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Of like, oh my God, like society has low key gaslit me into thinking everything's gonna be okay, but it's not gonna be okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Always.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes. And we call it. We have a special word for it. We call it being preparanoid. It's like everyone makes you feel like you're paranoid, like, this will never happen. It never happens to you. I have told 700 stories of people who I guarantee would say it was never gonna happen to them. And so, so much of like the education or the preparedness or the hyper vigilance is being like, you know what? I probably will never find myself in a situation, but if I do, I know what to do.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm paranoid.

[Ashley Flowers]

And we have gotten so many emails from listeners who are like, let me tell you about this situation I narrowly escaped because I listened to your show.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So what are the paranoia things that people have that listeners have in their fanny pack post listening to?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, we have something called like an if I go missing folder, which is a lot of information of if you were to go missing. Law enforcement can't. Has to get subpoenas for your phone for like, everything's digital. And so it's like having your Apple ID password having certain things that your loved ones could like try and find you. We had a listener reach in about like using that to help locate someone who they ended up finding safe. We have had listeners talk about just being aware. Most of it is being aware of your surroundings and just feeling okay in not being polite. We Also say, be weird, be rude, stay alive. Like it's the biggest thing, I think we've all been conditioned, and especially women is just like, I don't want to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, especially in Indiana, in the Midwest. I don't want anyone to feel like I'm being rude or mean. I have to be polite at all costs. And, and it's that that can often make a bad situation worse, where if you just call out someone's behavior, if they're not making you feel comfortable, prioritizing your own safety is important. That's what I want my daughter to realize. I mean, she's only three and I don't want her to like appease someone just so an adult feels comfortable.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's so fascinating because, well, funny enough, I have a 7 year old daughter and we haven't gotten her into true crime yet, but she is in Brazilian Jiu jitsu, so she does fuck up some of the boys in her class.

[Ashley Flowers]

I love it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But I was having this conversation with my wife and I go, what is the element? What is the thing that I'm missing where I'm not getting into true crime? And she told me this anecdote which she said, which is similar to what you were saying earlier, which is, as a woman, there is something in your programming where you see another man. And this is like in the deepest part of your lizard brain, if you're alone in a room with another man, the first thought that comes to your mind that you don't even realize you're thinking is, will this guy kill me?

[Ashley Flowers]

Am I safe?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, but specifically, will he kill me? But yeah, am I safe? She was telling me the story about how in our apartment we had to get our air conditioner fixed and the repairman came. And one of the first programs that came up in her mind was almost Terminator 2 style, like, brr.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How big is he? How far away do I have to be from him?

[Ashley Flowers]

The way you have to operate in the world is really different than I think. And I remember pointing this out to my husband when I. Back when I used to travel for work. And I remember like stopping at a rest stop and I was like, literally like sending him my pen and here's where I am and I'm gonna be here for five minutes. And I remember like scoping everything out as I was going in. And I was like, man, if my husband was here, it wouldn't even cross his mind.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, not at all.

[Ashley Flowers]

Like, again, just the way we operate in the world is so different. Be it biological be it learned behavior, but we are always on alert, always wondering if we're safe.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm not even a fighter, but there was even a part of me where I was like, let me think of that anecdote. Like, okay, the repairman comes in. I got to fix your air conditioner. In a weird way, I'm like, if he attacks me, I guess I have to stab him. Like, I'm not. I'm not even joking. I'm like, I guess I have to, like, defend myself, I guess. Break off part of this chair and stabilize. Stab him through the heart like he's a vampire. I don't know. I'm just gonna have to. But it. The first place that I kind of went to is like, zombies. That's like. Cause that's what you're preparing for. Weird. Weird. Some sort of weird form of violence. Let me ask you this. When you first met me, did you think, is he gonna kill me?

[Ashley Flowers]

No.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What'd you think?

[Ashley Flowers]

Is he gonna fuck with me?

[Hasan Minhaj]

But that is a form of, like, emotional violence, I guess.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I. How should men. Should men, like, walk into rooms and just go, hi, I'm Scott. I promise I won't kill you.

[Ashley Flowers]

Absolutely not. Like, my husband talks about this all the time too, where he's like, I want, like, I want them to be like, hey, I'm safe. Hey, I won't do anything. But I was like, don't. Don't say that. Cause then we're like, why are you thinking. Just.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That makes it worse.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. Like, we're, again, we're too conditioned. We probably won't change. Just, like, be cool. And like, if we.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But be cool is so subjective, Ashley.

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, I was like, eric. Cause he's like, I don't know if I should, like, offer this woman help. Like, she clearly needs help. And I was like, you may offer to carry her groceries one time, and when she says no, you immediately leave. You do not insist.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure, sure. Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

So I don't know that, like, there's anything to do to change something that's so deeply ingrained in us, but there's things I think people can do to not make it worse.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So Eric, in that situation, he's in the parking lot of a grocery store, and he goes, may I help you to your car with your bags? And if she says no, he should just politely be like, got it. Good luck throwing out your back. Yes, I wish you the best.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

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[Hasan Minhaj]

Have you heard of the man versus bear thought experiment?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes, and I too would choose the bear.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, so for our male listeners, set this up. What Is this thought experiment.

[Ashley Flowers]

So usually you can put any woman in your life. Like, in the scenario, it's like. Because you can even ask a man, like, if it was your daughter who is in the woods, would you want her alone in the woods with a bear or with a man?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. And what do women say?

[Ashley Flowers]

Always. They will pick the bear.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Always.

[Ashley Flowers]

Again, my algorithm might know me, but I have not seen one of the tiktoks where someone picks the man.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, so take me through the reasoning. Why is that?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, I guess, like, with a. With a bear, you know what to expect, and you like. And it's like, what it wants is very clear, and it feels a little easier to navigate and all. And all bears are pretty much the same. With a man, it could be anything. And you don't know what to expect, and you don't know the worst case with a man feels potentially worse than the worst case with a bear. Does that. Is that. Like. Which sounds bananas, but that's how it feels.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It sounds terrifying is how it sounds. Yeah. Because for me, I was like, the bear. The bear.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The bear is far scarier.

[Ashley Flowers]

And you hope, like, you know, chances are you get a nice guy in the woods, maybe he's gonna help you out of the woods.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But what's wild is you're thinking, like, maybe I'll get a nice bear. Yeah. Maybe the bear will be really kind. Maybe it'll be like a yogi the bear.

[Ashley Flowers]

Or maybe he's sleepy. Like, maybe he's not hungry. And if I, as long as I like, you know, avoid the bear, there's bear tracks. I know where to go. Like, I'll be fine.

[Hasan Minhaj]

If I may have some polite pushback here.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes, please.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is all of the true crime stuff really about planning? Is it really about being paranoid? Is it really about female empowerment? Or is there at least some of it that's about the titillation, the drama.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's fascinating. Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

Because, like, it will and it will always be a form of entertainment for people. I mean, that's how. And that idea is what pushed me into getting into, like, the advocacy work that we do. It will. And this goes back to, like, the mystery of it all. I mean, the same way that, you know, I write crime fiction, there is crime stories, TV shows. You just came out. Everyone's watching you. Like, people are fascinated by the whys.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And the roller coaster.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And there are certain stories that we can't even tell on our show because we're like, there is, like, I need 40 minutes. Right. Like, I've got to be able to take people on a journey. I've got to get them really invested in a story. And a really good story has certain elements. And what I've always thought is it will always be that for people, will always be fascinating. It will always be a look into this darker part of society and people's minds that we can. I can't turn away from. So how do you acknowledge that that is a thing and something in us that we want to see, but also not cause more harm by doing it? I think that's the key.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That is the interesting space that true crime occupies because there is an element of Stand by me. Do you want to see a dead body? Energy to it. For me, this is the test. If you have two serial crime junkies sit down with each other and they ask each other, hey, who's your favorite serial killer? I'm like, this is not about male empowerment. This is not about female empowerment.

[Ashley Flowers]

Agreed.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But who's your favorite serial killer?

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't have a favorite. Like, I.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Who's on your Mount Rushmore of serial killers.

[Ashley Flowers]

For what, though? Like, who would I want to interview? Who would I want to like? Because to say that they're just my favorite. Like, I truly do not have a favorite person who slaughtered people. Like, that's. That's insane.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Mine's Genghis Khan, yo.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay. What a choice.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I respect a man with that much ambition and hubris.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's a lot of people with the last name Khan. I'm like, that's. It's horrifying, but bold.

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, certainly most of them are.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So you don't. You don't have a favorite? No, there's not a. Whoa. This one was an all time.

[Ashley Flowers]

There are ones where I'm like, man, I'm really. I am fascinated by the way that they operated.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

Because how can you. I'll give you an example. So do you, I assume you don't know Israel Keys. Are you familiar with him?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No.

[Ashley Flowers]

So he's a man who traveled the country, really the world, and he would pick people who he seemingly had no connection with at random. He would go to a place, he would bury what he called a kill bucket in the ground that had all the tools he needed to commit a crime and then leave it and would come back years later, have his tools, pick someone at random. There's really very few traces. He was even in the area. He would kill them and leave. And to me, studying something like that, they only found him because of a very small mistake. And I wonder how many more people are out there operating like that. But when you think about profiling and the work that has been done thus far, we don't know anything about that type of person because that's not the type of person that's ever been studied, because until him, we really didn't know that guy existed. So if I'm interested in one killer more than another, it's more about what can we learn from them that you can apply to other things.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, there's something really interesting about understanding serial killers that commit these heinous acts of violence versus people, you know? So, yes, I admit they are fascinating. They're also very rare. This is an interesting statistic. Over half of all female victims of homicide are killed by a family member or intimate partner.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So, like, it's really someone you know that's going to kill you versus.

[Ashley Flowers]

Exactly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, yeah, this random dude who buries buckets and then kills people randomly by digging them back up.

[Ashley Flowers]

Absolutely. One of our really large advocacy causes that we spent a lot of time in is domestic violence, because intimate partner violence is one of the leading causes of death and especially for women. They even say, like, when a woman gets pregnant, she is far more likely to die than if she were not. So this goes back to, like, do you really know the people who. And how they're gonna respond? And so, you know, these women would say over and over, like, I. Even if you knew he was a bad guy, even if you knew he was abusive emotionally, physically, like, they don't think they'll take it that far until they do, until it's too late.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is there ever a thing that you feel where you were, like, hey, obsessing about true crime is one part of it. But it may take some attention away from legitimate domestic violence and understanding that this thing could happen within your own family or circle?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, no, because I think that's what we're doing by this. So, I mean, because we've told a number of stories, we've had domestic violence experts on our show to talk to people about. Like, what are the real signs that you look for? Like, it's not. It's not as glaring. It's not a threat that they'll kill you. There are certain controlling behaviors. And so we tell both types of stories. And my goal is really to bring people in to write. Like, you can't come out of the gate telling people you're going to teach them a lesson. And standing on your soapbox, nobody wants to hear. Learn a lesson or hear a lesson from Someone telling them they're teaching them a lesson. And so we have different episodes on our show, the ones about the serial killer, that will bring someone who's just maybe the casual listener has this interest in a big case. It will bring them in and our listeners will learn a lot along the way.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I feel the same way, by the way, about. I have this as a political satirist and comedian. So the Daily Show, Patriot act, people love that. And something that they say this oftentimes they go, I get all my news from you guys. And I go, I hope that's not completely true. Because we're just. At the end of the day, those shows are just news recap shows. And hopefully it's the entry point into.

[Ashley Flowers]

Exactly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Into a real form of community organizing and community empowerment and getting involved in local elections and caring about issues. Yeah, caring about issues on the ground, not through like 20 minute YouTube videos.

[Ashley Flowers]

Exactly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Speaking of activism and in information, is there a nonprofit or like a Bronx Defenders or Innocence Project when it comes to true crime? I know you've worked in that space.

[Ashley Flowers]

Worked in that space. We founded one. There isn't like a one and done so. We have done a ton of work with nonprofits, kind of across the board. And usually whatever nonprofit will work with is really tied to the case that we're covering. So, I mean, a lot of times if a family has set up a foundation, we'll work directly with a foundation. If we're talking about missing kids, we're working with ncmec, national center for Missing and Exploited Children. One of the issues, though, I saw when I came into the city space is there was a gap. I talked to so many families, so many law enforcement agencies, and I was finding over and over and over again that oftentimes the only thing that was standing in the way between solving a cold case or not was money. Because there's a ton of new technology now that's allowing us to solve cases in ways we never thought were possible before. But science moves a lot faster than law, a lot faster than budgets in government. And so we now had investigative genetic genealogy where someone doesn't have to be in the national database of criminals. You can now find them using 23andMe and Ancestry, specifically GEDmatch. But law enforcement didn't have the $5,000, $7,000 that it took to do that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No way.

[Ashley Flowers]

And it feels like small amounts. It felt like small amounts to me. Where. And I totally.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean 5 to 7k. To find a human who killed a human being is a nominal Amount of money. Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

And so we were like, we'll write you the check. Like, let's. We'll pay for it. Most law enforcement agencies don't want to take money from a media company.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'll venmo you. You can't really do that to the police department.

[Ashley Flowers]

Exactly. So we set up a nonprofit called Season of Justice, where the whole premise is we will fund the labs directly. Law enforcement just submits a grant. If it gets approved, then we'll fund the lab directly to do the testing, solve the cases.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What involvement do, like, private detectives and private investigators have in this whole world?

[Ashley Flowers]

It depends. Like, really? I mean, there.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Are they effective?

[Ashley Flowers]

Sometimes. So yes. Yes. If you get a good one.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

And even more so if law enforcement is open to it. So a lot of times private investigators most of the time come from when family reach out to them because they're not either getting the time, resources, support from law enforcement. It's just gone cold for. For so many years.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Ashley Flowers]

And. Or they're not happy with law enforcement and what they're doing. So if there is a rift between the family and law enforcement, PIs can come in and they'll. It's very hard for them to work if they don't have law enforcement's cooperation. And sometimes they can make headway. If law enforcement is doing nothing, they can make a lot of headway because a lot of times the stuff's just not being done and they're the first person to do it. And if law enforcement is open and saying, like, hey, we don't have the resources. Right. We don't have a cold case division. There are other cases popping up and they'll work with them. They're going to be the most successful.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And by the way, if there's any private investigators that are listening to this, feel free to hop in the comment section and share what you do. Because in my opinion, all I've seen of you is that you guys sit in rented cars from Hertz and you're just popping in pistachios. That's all I know is just like slowly eating pistachios.

[Ashley Flowers]

There's a lot of. Because, like, I've seen so many families who've gotten scammed, too, by PIs who will charge and charge and charge and either not have anything come of the work they do, if they're doing the work at all. So, like, families have to beware.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, PIs, get in the comments section. Show me your receipts.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, exactly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Let me know you're legit. This Episode of Hussa Minhaj doesn't know is brought to you by booking.combooking. yeah. Whether you're planning a getaway for just you or the whole crew, booking.com has summer stays across the United States to match every single personality you can think of. From light sleepers to late risers, picky teens to chill partners, you'll find just the right spot and vibe for everyone. When I travel with my family, we're not just looking for a place to sleep. We are looking for a place that works for our entire family. That means a big kitchen where we can cook breakfast together, a separate TV room where we can wind down at night, and a hardwood floor so my girl can dribble. She's a Hooper. Whether you're going on a road trip upstate or hitting a beach, booking.com helps us find the perfect store that checks all of our boxes. Ridiculously big fridge. Check. Blackout curtains for grown men who can't sleep without them. Check. Quiet neighborhood that is extremely unpopular with spring breakers. Check. Whatever your family needs to feel at home, booking.com makes it easy to find your kind of place. And hey, if our family can find their perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can find exactly what you're booking [e-mail] booking. Yeah. Book today on the site or in the app. For those who aren't aware of you, you are from South Bend, Indiana?

[Ashley Flowers]

I am.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is the home of another South Bend, Indiana goat, Mayor Pete. You recently had an Instagram post where you said, I am this close to running for office. Okay, so what's got you fired up? What is your Mayor Ashley moment that's making you go, I want to get into public service. I'm running for office.

[Ashley Flowers]

Indiana. I mean, like, look at the world right now, man. It's like, it's bananas.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's not great.

[Ashley Flowers]

And especially when it comes to, like, we're very, my husband and I, very interested in local politics. Like, I mean, I think on a national scale, like, things are spicy and I think we're in trouble. But locally is where I think everyone feels it the most. And when I look at the book bans that are happening in my area, where I look at the funding that's getting cut, women's rights, all the things that they're taking money from and putting money towards, I think that that specific post was one of our elected officials is requesting more money for like a faith based organization. And I'm like, man, I'm out here. I've done endowments for mobile medical clinics Serving a population who's unhoused for domestic violence shelters for, like, we've. I'm like, that is the work in my community I know needs to be done. And, like, we're talking about something that, like, is not helping long term, because it's not. And so many people came back at me and they're like, well, those faith based organizations do that sometimes. And I'm like, sure, but, like, read the Fine. That's not what they're looking to do here. They're looking to talk about the way we teach children in schools. And they're. And so I'm not running for politics anytime soon. But I want to see our elected officials care for our children, care for our community, to treat people as though they want to be treated. I mean, I believe that neighbor is more than the person living next to you. And it just saddens me often to see the way that we're thinking about taking care of one another.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Everyone has a tipping point. It's like, my wife had this where I think she was gonna run for office when she recently saw the headline that the federal government's gonna cut funding for PBS and Sesame Street.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's been like.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And she's like, you're going after Elmo. This is my red line.

[Ashley Flowers]

I will defend Elmo. The death.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We can't have this. You know, Mark Brown, the author of Arthur, like, one of my favorite children's book series, recently penned this op ed in USA Today. Being like, the cutting of federal funding via the Department of Education to PBS is a huge problem. And I couldn't agree with you more, which is, I think our generation is feeling this existential pain of, hey, we keep arguing about the symptoms, ban this book, or these weird culture war things. And we're not addressing, like, the real huge problems. Education on housing, domestic violence, reproductive rights, et cetera. So I don't know if you had. If the Elmo moment was your tipping point moment or something happened in Indianapolis, maybe with a group that really.

[Ashley Flowers]

It really started with the book bands. And it was just getting to a point, like where we're looking at schools for my daughter. She's three. She's young now, but we're starting that process.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, no. It's a nightmare.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, it's terrible. And me and my husband are like, I feel like we have to join the school board. I feel like we. And I. I had this moment where I was literally, like crying on the couch, where I was like, I feel like we have to leave or do something. But I'm Also one of those people who I find it very hard to look at something and say, oh, that sucks, and then, like, go over here. I have a very strong sense of, like, if not us, if not me, then who?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sure. Yeah. It's the crazy thing about being our age. What's wild is when you really think about it, everyone who's in charge is kind of our age. J.D. vance is kind of our age. Elon Musk is kind of our age. Zuckerberg is our age. Like, the people shaping the world are either dinosaurs or our age.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And there's no like in between. It's pretty surreal. I want to talk about your new book. So you were now, in addition to the empire that you have built in less than half a decade, you have a new book called the Missing Half, which we have right over here. Okay. So between hosting six or seven podcasts, between producing more stuff, running a company, you have this book.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wasn't there already enough murder in the world that didn't need you to write a piece of fiction? What inspired you to write this book?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, I'm an avid consumer of mystery thrillers. So this is a novel. It's complete fiction. And a lot of what I want to do is I want to create things for my audience. I do want to be audience first. And I looked at crime junkies. I modeled the show after something I wanted as the ultimate crime junkie. And I knew that I wasn't just consuming podcasts. Like, I'm in all these other spaces, too. Like, I'm consuming every new mystery book that comes out. And so why not be in these spaces that my audience is? I really want to try and show up in every area. And when I wanted to write it, I got a lot of pushback from people in my circle or publishers. They're like, no, no, no, no. Like, everyone wants a true crime book from you. You're the true crime girl. Write the true crime thing. Just take, like, some stories from your podcast. And I said, no, I think you're underestimating who my audience is and what they want. And so I had to really fight to write my first fiction novel.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How fictional is it, though? Because the characters in this, it's set in South Bend, where you grew up. One of the characters went to your alma mater, Arizona State University. It mentions learning skills from Nancy Drew Brooks. Those are your childhood faves.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And it follows two women who bond over their shared fascination with an unsolved murder. Not unlike you and your crime junkie co host, Britt.

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, in this case, the two women who come together, they have a strong connection to the case. So they're two women who, each of their sisters had gone missing under similar circumstances. And so they're, like, really driven to solve the mystery together. But there is so much of me in this second book. But that's how you make the characters feel real. Like, write about what you know. And also what I know is mysteries. Like, I know how to write the best twist. I know how to surprise you at the end. Like, that is what I'm good at. And it was really fun to do it in a fiction space where it was the fun part of solving the mystery when the stakes were the lowest. They can be.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You are very good at writing a good twist and turn. So the question is, how would you murder someone?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, I've gotten a lot of advice from cops over the years, unsolicited, on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How to murder people.

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, on how to get rid of the body. The important thing is, and I've come to learn, just don't let them find the body.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's the big thing.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So the cops told you. They're like, don't let us find the body.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Because if we find the body, you done fucked up.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. It's like you're off to a good start to make sure they don't find.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So wait, wait. What prompted law enforcement to tell you this?

[Ashley Flowers]

Dude, I don't know.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Because you're famous now.

[Ashley Flowers]

No, I get. Well, and I. We're, like, deep in with them. So, like, so many of the cases we work, we're like. I mean, I've worked on investigations with law enforcement for like a year and a half. Like, when we do some of our Deep Dive series, we go and interview them weekly for our show the Deck. You just develop these relationships, and this is like their world. Like, you get them. Like, you get them out, have a couple of beers after work. Like, they. They want to tell their war story.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is it like Breaking Bad where you got to put them in acid?

[Ashley Flowers]

No, there are other ways.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What are the other ways?

[Ashley Flowers]

Like, swamps are a big thing. They can't search swamps. I don't. This whole show is going to be.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There'S local jurisdiction where they're like, don't go to swamps.

[Ashley Flowers]

Most swamps can't be searched. They just can't.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Are there swamps in Indiana?

[Ashley Flowers]

There's swamps in Indiana.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I feel like swamps are like quicksand. Like, I'm. I'm aware of their existence, but I've never seen one.

[Ashley Flowers]

Same, same. And I. I thought I truly. I thought they were all in Florida until recently.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Ah. Okay. So you would. You and Brit would murder the body and then put it in a swamp?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, not together. We need one of us. Has to be an alibi. Right? So.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, I want to end with something fun but dark. Can we?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, sure.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. Your podcast has made this thing very popular, but it's called the if I go missing folder. So you talked about that earlier in the interview. I went on your website.

[Ashley Flowers]

Did you fill it out?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I filled it out.

[Ashley Flowers]

Oh, my God. I can't wait.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I filled out the official if I go missing if I go missing packet. This is 27 pages.

[Ashley Flowers]

You know the essentials.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's a lot. So let's go through it together.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. I mean, it's pretty much everything Amazon and Facebook and Google already know about you, but you put it in PDF for sure.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, they just. Again, they require a warrant. They're not helpful.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. It's 27 pages. It's a ready to use template for you and your loved ones if you go missing. On page three, has physical appearance, and it says, see included photographs for most recent appearance. Can I use these two photos of me from my most recent Esquire photo shoot?

[Ashley Flowers]

Absolutely not.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Why you.

[Ashley Flowers]

This is the whole point. Like, you got to pick the photo that's going to look like you. So, like, also, don't be too kind. You can pick one of them.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, so if I'm. If I go missing and I'm dead, I want people to see me in this white tank top, looking kind of cool.

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, if you're dead, yeah. So maybe we need to modify. Pick your. If I die, here's the one of.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Me looking cool, and that one is me running away from my murder while I gaze into the lens.

[Ashley Flowers]

If you're missing, you're gone for days. Like, you're haggard, your hair is unwashed, like you're struggling, and people need to recognize that version of you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm already dead, though. Ashley. Don't let me look. Crusty folder.

[Ashley Flowers]

We're supposed to be saving people before they wind up dead. This is a good look for you if you are dead.

[Hasan Minhaj]

If I'm dead, then let me be remembered this way.

[Ashley Flowers]

I'll allow it. I mean, listen, it's your folder to do with what you owe.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay, on page three, it says identifying scars. Now, does that include ones on the outside or the inside?

[Ashley Flowers]

Mostly the outside. Again, if you're dead, I don't know that they're going to get to the.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Internal wounds because I Needed more space for that. I was like, I need a full page here. Like, it's a college application. At the bottom of page five, you have one line for notes on mental, emotional, and or physical health. One line too few. Do you know how many comedians I know? That's a whole.

[Ashley Flowers]

You can listen, you can see attachment, a. If you've got, like, a journal, you need to accompany it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I think we also need, just as an addendum, to be like, please have your physician give us all diagnoses of you.

[Ashley Flowers]

I'm pretty sure we have physician's contact information in there, so some of the steps.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay. Another question on page seven, it says former significant other. How significant are we talking about here?

[Ashley Flowers]

I would say anyone who would. Who you think would be significant in the case of you going missing or your demise. So it's not about the length of the relationship, but about how terrified you are of that person.

[Hasan Minhaj]

So I'll be honest. I don't want to brag, but I do take MTA north, and I took the subway.

[Ashley Flowers]

You're saying things that mean nothing to me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm from Indiana, so I take the train. I take the train into Manhattan, into work. And there was this older woman in a two seater. She says, hey, can you move that backpack? And I go, no, I like my space. And she did look at me a certain way. Is she significant enough?

[Ashley Flowers]

You know, it would get difficult to update it every day. I don't know how often you were having these interactions.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Happens on. On the reg here in New York City on seven individuals who know of the existence of. Of this folder. Should I add you to the list now?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, I know that it exists. I don't know where it is kept. I mean, I think, well, and then now, like, how are you? You're gonna have to list everyone who watches.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's the conundrum. That's the paradox we're in now. Everybody that watches and listens to this, you're screwed. I was thinking about this because as I was filling it out, I thought about. I actually do have journals and diaries. Is that damning or compelling or important?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, I mean, it totally can be. That's what's gonna get left behind if your killer doesn't destroy it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Ashley, any final thoughts? Anything that you want to share to the audience that they haven't thought about that we haven't discussed?

[Ashley Flowers]

No, I mean, I think that for those interested in true crime, I mean, so much of what we're doing, doing and what we promote is I set out to figure out A way to find a better way to consume true crime. Make true crime.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

And so it's what I would push people. Like, if this is an interest of yours, there is a way to listen to it, consume it without it causing more harm. And I think being really intentional about the content that they're consuming. And like, how is that content for strictly entertainment purposes? What are the ways that they're giving back? How are people getting involved? This whole journey for me started because I. I was the consumer who felt like I was voyeuristic and felt guilty. And so I started volunteering at Crime Stoppers and seven years later, here I am.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Did you ever think it would be this big because you took out just like a. It was only like a few hundred bucks and your moxie that like, made this whole thing happen.

[Ashley Flowers]

Never, like my goal. It was never a hobby.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

But I. I put up, made like a business plan, gave myself one year because I knew I was gonna have to put so much into this to make it something. But I knew it had to be my full time job or I couldn't do both. It was not a hobby. So when I started, I was like, I just need to be able to pay my rent, pay my mortgage, be able to pay my bills, and if I can do what I love and pay my bills, I'm gonna be so happy. And this is a lot more than I ever expected.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Now that you're living it, do you feel like this is your purpose?

[Ashley Flowers]

Absolutely.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wow.

[Ashley Flowers]

And I tell people all the time, I'm like, it's like, it's. I know. It's so rare too. And so I treasure it all the time to be like, I found the thing I was meant to do. You know, if there are parallel universes and an infinite number of me, I feel like I am in my best one.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's so beautiful.

[Ashley Flowers]

It is. I like it. I feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, actually. Flowers, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. This was so fun.

[Ashley Flowers]

Appreciate it. Make your daddy glad to have had such a laugh.