Why We Can’t Focus - with MSNBC’s Chris Hayes

Summary

Summary of "Why We Can’t Focus" Featuring MSNBC’s Chris Hayes

Podcast Title: Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know
Host: Hasan Piker
Guest: Chris Hayes, Host of MSNBC's "All In with Chris Hayes" and author of The Siren's Call: How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource
Release Date: July 2, 2025

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1. Introduction: Setting the Stage

The episode kicks off with a playful exchange between Hasan Piker and Chris Hayes, where both attempt to emulate TikTok grifters' attention-grabbing openers. This lighthearted start segues into the core theme of the conversation: the struggle to maintain focus in an age overwhelmed by information.

Notable Quote:

• Hasan Piker (00:02): “Ladies and gentlemen, Chris. Hey... our life is defined by what we choose to pay attention to.”

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2. The Essence of Attention in Modern Life

Hasan introduces Chris's new book, The Siren's Call, which delves into how attention has become a scarce and commodified resource. Chris elaborates on the pervasive feeling of alienation caused by the constant extraction and manipulation of our attention by digital platforms and capitalist structures.

Key Points:

• Attention as a Commodity: Drawing parallels to Marx's labor theory, Chris explains how attention, like labor, has been transformed into a fungible commodity. Every moment of our attention is auctioned off, often valuing it at mere fractions of a penny, while generating immense profits for those who control these attention marketplaces (07:29).

• Alienation: The relentless extraction of attention leads to a sense of alienation, where individuals feel disconnected from their own minds and autonomy (06:16).

Notable Quote:

• Chris Hayes (07:29): “All of a sudden it's being sold into a marketplace where it's worth nothing at the individual level.”

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3. The Impact of Technology and Media on Attention

The conversation delves into how modern technology, especially smartphones and social media, manipulate both involuntary and voluntary attention. Chris discusses the primal functions of attention and how technologies exploit these mechanisms to maximize engagement.

Key Points:

• Compelled Attention: Features like haptic feedback on phones trigger involuntary attention, making it difficult for individuals to ignore notifications (11:19).

• Casinos and News Media: Chris compares media environments to casinos, using bright lights and constant interruptions to capture and hold attention (11:58).

Notable Quotes:

• Chris Hayes (11:20): “It's hardwired into the phone. And the reason it's doing something biological is because they want to extract as much attention as possible.”

• Hasan Piker (09:50): “Full on adults, geocaching and trying to, I guess, catch digital Pokémon in the streets.”

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4. The Dual Nature of Attention Consumption

While much of the attention economy pushes towards low-content, addictive formats (e.g., carpet cleaning videos, ASMR), there is also a surge in content that provides catharsis and satisfaction. Chris highlights the paradox where attention-grabbing content can both degrade cultural quality and offer meaningful engagement.

Key Points:

• Cathartic Content: Videos that transform chaos into order (e.g., cleaning shows) provide a sense of progress and satisfaction, reflecting Aristotle’s concept of catharsis (13:52).

• ASMR and Unboxing Videos: These formats cater to deep psychological appetites for relaxation and completion, demonstrating the varied ways attention can be leveraged (15:09).

Notable Quote:

• Chris Hayes (14:30): “It keeps me first of all, it's super soothing. And second of all, it's just like the most basic form of telos, of progress.”

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5. The Role of Journalism in the Attention Economy

Chris discusses the unique position of journalism within the attention economy. Unlike other media, journalism balances the need to capture attention with the ethical responsibility to inform and empower the public.

Key Points:

• Ethical Tensions: Journalists must navigate the tension between creating engaging content and upholding truth and integrity (23:00).

• Quality vs. Quantity: The pressure to maximize attention can lead to sensationalism, undermining the credibility and purpose of journalism (23:48).

Notable Quotes:

• Chris Hayes (24:13): “It's bad for the world... people are getting their information about the world from a market that selects solely for maximizing attention.”

• Hasan Piker (25:02): “As artists, as comedians and performers, we have to fight...”

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6. Social Media Influencers and the Pursuit of Attention

The discussion shifts to the impact of social media influencers and the quest for attention in shaping modern celebrity and public discourse. Chris examines how figures like Elon Musk and Kanye West exemplify the detrimental pursuit of attention for its own sake.

Key Points:

• The Trolling Culture: Influencers often seek attention through provocative or negative actions, prioritizing constant engagement over meaningful connections (38:27).

• Synthetic Recognition: Social media offers a simulacrum of genuine acknowledgment, leading individuals to chase superficial validation instead of authentic relationships (37:35).

Notable Quotes:

• Chris Hayes (38:11): “Negative attention is as good as positive attention...”

• Hasan Piker (37:47): “Cal Newport writes about this, that it's a simulacrum or feels like it.”

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7. The Influence of Technology on Youth and Parenting

Hasan and Chris explore the impact of smartphones and digital media on children, highlighting the tension between ensuring safety and fostering independence.

Key Points:

• Parental Dilemma: Parents struggle with balancing the need for their children to stay connected and safe against the negative psychological impacts of excessive screen time (46:41).

• Generational Shifts: Chris notes that while past generations faced different challenges, current trends in screen usage and autonomy present unique issues that require intentional parenting strategies (51:12).

Notable Quotes:

• Hasan Piker (46:33): “We're playing this very dark, sadistic game of would you rather us parents?”

• Chris Hayes (51:12): “Kids need independence and free play and free time.”

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8. Coping Strategies and Solutions

Towards the end of the episode, Chris offers practical advice on mitigating the adverse effects of the attention economy.

Key Points:

• Personal Practices: Spending dedicated time alone with one's thoughts to rebuild mental autonomy (17:14).

• Cultural Shifts: Encouraging settings like farmers' markets or phone-free zones in public spaces to foster genuine connections (44:17).

• Legislative Measures: Considering regulations that limit the manipulative extraction of attention by tech companies (46:10).

Notable Quotes:

• Chris Hayes (17:14): “Spend 20 to 30 minutes a minimum with your own thoughts every day.”

• Hasan Piker (44:17): “Attention farmers markets... which sounds like the most Brooklyn shit ever.”

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9. Conclusion: Reflecting on the Future of Attention

In wrapping up, both hosts reflect on the challenges and potential pathways forward in reclaiming attention as a personal and societal resource.

Key Points:

• Start with Self: Emphasizing individual responsibility in managing attention and digital consumption (55:13).

• Systemic Change: Recognizing the need for broader cultural and regulatory changes to address the pervasive nature of the attention economy (55:21).

Notable Quotes:

• Chris Hayes (55:30): “Start with us is one thing to say, let's start with us.”

• Hasan Piker (55:55): “That was great, man.”

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Final Thoughts

"Why We Can’t Focus" offers a deep dive into the complexities of attention in the modern digital landscape. Through insightful dialogue, Hasan Piker and Chris Hayes explore the multifaceted ways in which technology and media shape our focus, the ethical responsibilities of journalism, the psychological impacts on individuals and youth, and potential strategies for reclaiming control over our attention. The episode underscores the urgent need to understand and address the challenges posed by the attention economy to foster a healthier, more focused society.

Transcript

[Chris Hayes]

Lemonade.

[Hasan Piker]

We need to figure out right here, right now, what the Cold Open is going to be. So what I did is I looked at a bunch of TikTok grifters, okay? And I found their opening lines. Here we go. So I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do mine, you do yours, all right?

[Chris Hayes]

And we're just gonna alternate back and forth, back and forth, all right?

[Hasan Piker]

Here we go. Stop scrolling and watch till the end.

[Chris Hayes]

I've got a secret and I need your help.

[Hasan Piker]

This simple hack changed my life for free. If you want to achieve, hear me out.

[Chris Hayes]

You need to see this.

[Hasan Piker]

Just a quick reminder. This will blow your mind because they are lying to me. Everything you know is 100% wrong.

[Chris Hayes]

Why aren't more people talking about it?

[Hasan Piker]

This one mistake could cost you literally zillions of dollars.

[Chris Hayes]

In the next five seconds, in the.

[Hasan Piker]

Next three seconds, in the next one second. Please keep watching.

[Chris Hayes]

Please don't swipe away.

[Hasan Piker]

I will unalive myself if you stop watching.

[Chris Hayes]

Your attention.

[Hasan Piker]

Your attention, please.

[Chris Hayes]

Please, please. Your attention, please.

[Hasan Piker]

Your attention, please.

[Chris Hayes]

Your attention. Attention. I will unalive myself. Are we rolling? We are good to go.

[Hasan Piker]

Ladies and gentlemen, Chris. Hey. Our life is defined by what we choose to pay attention to. But when I look at my screen time at the end of the day, that doesn't feel like a choice. It feels like I'm a hungover college student trying to piece together what the hell happened last night. I'm always like, two hours on yope. I don't even know what YOPE is. That feeling, that feeling like we're in a daily fight for control over our own minds is what Chris Hayes, the host of MSNBC's All in with Chris Hayes, set out to understand in his new book. It's called the Siren's How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. And it's all about how this rectangle of sadness is so irresistible while also making us feel so shitty. So now that I have your attention, I'm gonna try to hold your attention with the conversation about attention. So please pay attention. Cool. You are making the rounds. I saw you on Colbert. I've seen you do podcast interviews. But it's interesting seeing Chris hayes outside of 30 Rock. People have been noticing something about you outside when Chris Hayes is outside. What do you think They've been noticing this. There we go. There we go. Let's take a look. Let's take a look.

[Chris Hayes]

I knew it.

[Hasan Piker]

I'm talking about big chain.

[Chris Hayes]

There it is. That's right.

[Hasan Piker]

So tell us. Tell us about this chain era.

[Chris Hayes]

I grew up in the Bronx in the 1980s.

[Hasan Piker]

Okay.

[Chris Hayes]

In some ways my entire trajectory in life is like getting back to being a 10 year old in the Bronx in the 1980s.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

Like, I don't know if you feel this way about your like, heritage, but the older you get, the more I'm like embracing that. And so I like, I make, I make pasta by hand, I make pizza by hand. I like, I'm obsessed with Italian food and all I want to do is wear like full Sergio Tacchini tracksuits with a big chain.

[Hasan Piker]

Got it, got it.

[Chris Hayes]

Like I was like, like back in Morris park.

[Hasan Piker]

You want to be in, you want to be in a Bronx Tale. Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

I want to go back to my youth.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

So I had been telling my wife, like, I think I'm going to start rocking a chain. And then she bought this for me, which is $60 in brass and by the way, is just discoloring my neck at all times.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Like it's the cheapest thing in the world.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes. And I was like, we have it tucked in here on offline, and then here you're tucked in, which is tucked in.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Which is the subtle, right?

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

But over here when you did Pablo Torre and over here on Ezra's, I.

[Chris Hayes]

Just experimented with different, different looks.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, but, but I'm saying if you go, if you go full Cuomo, go full Cuomo. I. Adidas tracksuit.

[Chris Hayes]

Oh, dude, you should see me on the weekend walking around my neighborhood. Like, I have, I've gotten really into like Sergio Takini velour matching tracksuits, which I now have like four or five of. And it's basically all I wear on the weekend with the gold chain. I want my dog around the neighborhood. I mean, this is surreal. And then I go back and I like make Sunday sauce. Got it on like for my kids with fresh pasta. It's like, I don't know, it's weirdly, it is coming. The other thing is, it was my 11 year old son's birthday and I just got him like a very small. I saw it. Got a matching gold chain. So we look like twinsies. It's pretty fun.

[Hasan Piker]

Okay, so your new book is called the Sirens Call. And I'm just going to. I think everyone should read it. I think it is a really, it's a really great summation of what it feels like to be alive right now in 2025, essentially. And I encourage all of you to read it. But, but really what you're talking about is the incessant hose of information that is coming at us at all times. I'm talking about the Bings, the Dings, the NYT update, Netflix, msnbc, push reporting.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

All of it is just a bukkake of information that does not stop.

[Chris Hayes]

That phrase is not in the book. But well said.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

And just to be clear.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. Not. That's not a full quote. That's. That's what I.

[Chris Hayes]

That's my.

[Hasan Piker]

That's my Goodreads review of Chris Hayes talks about the Bukhaki info hitting me right in my face.

[Chris Hayes]

I have to. I don't know what that. I'm going to Google that term. Let me see if that.

[Hasan Piker]

Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't fuck up.

[Chris Hayes]

Smart history.

[Hasan Piker]

Okay, but what I want to ask you this. MSNBC's Chris Hayes. Why does feeling alive right now feel so shitty?

[Chris Hayes]

That's a great question. I mean, there's. I think there's a bunch of layers. But let's start on the layer of the. What I call kind of the background hum. Yeah. Of digital life, which is increasingly life. Right. Like, there's no distinction between. There used to be a time when people say things like Twitter is not real life or it's not real life. It's like, no, it's real life. It's all real life.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

The central experience is an experience of what I call alienation. And alienation is just the feeling that something that should be within you is outside of you and is now made foreign to you. And because our attention is the most valuable thing we have, it is the substance of life. It's what our life is, is moment to moment, what are we paying attention to? And because that thing is a resource that's extracted from us, this thing that should be internal to us, that's constitutive of what it means to be a human.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

It's is constantly being excavated and extracted outside us.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

And that pull of having this thing that we should own appearing outside us, such that we don't have dominion over our own minds is the ubiquitous feeling of alienation that makes us feel, I think, bad.

[Hasan Piker]

This low hum of where am I?

[Chris Hayes]

What am I doing? Yes. This low hum of sort of dysregulation, this low hum of itchiness, this kind of jumpiness. Now, part of this, I want to be really clear, and I do write about this in the book, it's like part of it's a human condition. Like, you know, this is an insight that stretches back thousands of Years from the Buddha to the Stoics to philosophy, existentialist philosophers. Like being a human beings being trapped inside our own mind, which we can never outrun.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

And there's all kinds of ways that that can be for lots of folks, hell or difficult or troubled. But our background sort of human experience is now being manipulated in this specific way within this specific form of attention, capitalism, in a way that just exacerbates that alienation.

[Hasan Piker]

In the book you talk about attention like a commodity. Karl Marx wrote about labor being a commodity. How's attention a commodity here?

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, I think this is the best sort of analog we have is the way that Marx talked about labor. So labor is something that massively predates capitalism. Like people have been doing stuff as long as people been around. Right. So like the sum total of your toil and effort is a thing that humans have always had. Right.

[Hasan Piker]

And you were able to dial in by this is how much your toil and effort is getting you per hour and should pay you such for your work.

[Chris Hayes]

So that's the transformation that happens with capitalism. Right. It becomes this commodity, this fungible commodity where every hour is priced and sold into a marketplace.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

And the weird thing about that is similar to attention, like that's all you have. Like that's like what you have is like what do I do with my mind and body all day? That's the thing you have. All of a sudden it's being sold into a marketplace where it's worth nothing at the individual level. I mean, you're stamping souls in a shoe on assembly line day after day, 60, 80 hours a week, and you're making a pittance. But to the people that are extracting it and aggregating all that together, they're making world's historical fortunes.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

It's a very bizarre paradox of value there. Right. This is what Mark sets out to solve for in his labor theory of value. Exactly the same thing's happening with attention. Each individual slice of your attention as it's being auctioned off in a nanosecond on an Instagram reel to decide what the next ad you're going to see is like a fraction of a penny. Right.

[Hasan Piker]

But it's also the only thing you have. Yeah. And the summation of these fraction of the seconds is literally your life.

[Chris Hayes]

It's your whole life internally. But to the company, it creates a vast fortune. So there's a very strange paradox of value. And again, because this thing like labor and attention are parts that we experience from the inside as almost holy yeah. But from the outside, they're just like a barrel of oil. It's that sort of weird division that's the source of so much of the alienation.

[Hasan Piker]

It is this feeling that I get of, oh, you're take your. You're taking my soul away. That's the unique shitty part. But when I walk around midtown Manhattan, I mean, this is the epicenter of cool. Don't argue with me in the comments. It is a very cool city. This is fucking awesome. But I look around and it used to be the center of. Of of culture and fashion and. And cool people saying cool things or weird things or interesting characters scenes. But I'm seeing a bunch of motherfuckers walking around like they're playing Pokemon Go.

[Chris Hayes]

Just. Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Full on adults, geocaching and trying to, I guess, catch digital Pokemon in the streets. Why. Why do. Why are we. You know what?

[Chris Hayes]

Why are we so susceptible?

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, why are we so susceptible?

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, this gets down to.

[Hasan Piker]

A.

[Chris Hayes]

Core aspect of the faculty for attention, which is that its evolutionary function is to alert us to danger and compel it against our will. Right? So this is so important. Like, there's a part of our attention which is the attention now, which is, like, voluntary, where I'm listening to you. You're listening to me. Like our conscious wills are being marshaled.

[Hasan Piker]

I'm dropped in.

[Chris Hayes]

You're dropped in. I'm dropped in. If someone came running through the door in the studio right now, or someone fell or a book, you know, crashed, we would notice that before we got a chance to consciously decide whether we wanted to. Right? So if you're walking across the street in midtown, you're looking at your phone and you walk across a light that's green, and a car honks. In order for attention to function. Right. Its primal function is that you hear that honk and it starts you going before you decide, like, do I want to listen to the horn or not?

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Because that compelled, involuntary attention faculty is there next to our voluntary one. It creates this opportunity when you start using massive machine learning and engineering at scale to essentially extract our attention via this compelled attention channel.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

So when you talked about before, when you talked about the phone, the buzz of the phone. Right. It's a great example that haptic feedback, which is what it's called, which is hardwired into the phone. If you have it turned on, it's sitting in your pocket. You don't get to decide whether you notice it or not.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure.

[Chris Hayes]

It's actually doing something biological.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

And the reason it's doing something biological is because they want to extract as much attention as possible. And the best way to do that in attention, in competitive attention markets is compelled attention. So, like, think about casino floors, Times Square, the phone. Where are. Where is attention most competitive? It's the places with the most, like, bells and blinking lights and stuff that's trying to get. Get you to notice, even if you don't want.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, yeah. And you talk about the idea of grabbing attention and then holding attention. So break that down for us a little bit.

[Chris Hayes]

Part of the thing that's really important to understand is that the difference between grabbing and holding kind of maps onto this sort of involuntary, voluntary. Right. So like, when the car horn honks, your attention's grabbed.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And the point is that anyone can grab attention. Right. Like, if you take anyone off the street and you say, I'm going to bring you through this auditorium, there's a thousand people in there. I want you to get their attention. Anyone can do it.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure.

[Chris Hayes]

You walk on stage, you're like, yo. But if you take anyone off the street, says, there's thousands people in there, I want you to hold their attention for an hour. All of a sudden, that's hard. Right, Right. And the difference is the difference between how easy it is to grab attention and how hard it is to hold it. How easy it is to play on that faculty of involuntary attention, of the siren or the car honking or the dishes crashing to the ground or yo. In the street, and how hard it is to do all the other work of keeping someone locked into you.

[Hasan Piker]

And by the way, in your career, you have to simultaneously.

[Chris Hayes]

Yes. I mean, I think we all do. Right, sure. Like that. That's. I mean, I'm sure you think a lot about what, Like, I find stand up from a craft level, super fascinating in this way. Like what your first joke is. Like, what.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

What's the first thing you're doing?

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And then. And then how you build that and how you keep people.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure.

[Chris Hayes]

So in my job. Yeah. Like, cable news uses a lot of those casino techniques. Like, we've got flashing lights, we got, like, the banner that's scrolling. Right. We're constantly, like, we are using the, like, interruption. Interruption. But the other thing we're trying to do, I'm trying to do is like, actually do storytelling. Right.

[Hasan Piker]

Do rhetoric and hold your attention in a meaningful way. Exactly. And I think this is.

[Chris Hayes]

I.

[Hasan Piker]

We found this in a little research. You're oddly obsessed with carpet cleaning videos.

[Chris Hayes]

I am.

[Hasan Piker]

Okay. So speaking of attention, holding attention. What is it about those videos that spiritually speak to you so deeply?

[Chris Hayes]

Oh, because they have just a perfect story of catharsis. Like, it's really just like Aristotelian Poetics 101 because it starts out dirty and it ends up clean. It's just. And you watch it go from dirty to clean, you know, where you are in the arc of the whole thing. But you also know in the end, like, you know, like a rom com, like they're gonna kiss in the end. Right. So it, it ha. It keeps for me. It keeps me. First of all, it's super soothing. And second of all, it's just like the most basic form of telos, of progress, of. Of narrow park is. And catharsis, which is this rug was really dirty. And I know at the end of 20 minutes it's rugby. Really clean.

[Hasan Piker]

It's the same way.

[Chris Hayes]

Very satisf.

[Hasan Piker]

My 5 year old loves seeing Lego unboxing videos.

[Chris Hayes]

Exactly. And they know. Exactly.

[Hasan Piker]

And they love that, oh, at the, at the end of the three minutes, the Batmobile will be complete.

[Chris Hayes]

And what's so fascinating about that to me is that it speaks to something that in some ways is in direct tension, which with what I was saying before about like at one level you've got this like weird casino flattening that happens with current attention capitalism of like the scroll of like the vertical video. But then you also do have this like wild experimentation of human appetites for things like no one would have in the old days. No executives would have greenlit a carpet cleaning show.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure.

[Chris Hayes]

But it turns out that it's really like the smr, like ASMR or unboxing, all that stuff. So like, there is a weird way in which like, I don't want to underplay the fact that there is interesting experimentation that's happened where like our attentional appetites are both kind of like a drive towards the lowest common denominator in the way that like you can sell Coca Cola anywhere in the world.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

But then also like people like all sorts of crazy.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure. But the, But I'll give an example. The carpet cleaning video, the LEGO unboxing video, the ASMR nighttime routine video, all of these kind of like little piece of cathartic filler pieces of content to me raise a larger question, which is why are we so uncomfortable with any moment of silence?

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, that is really the core of it. And this again, this is one of those things that goes all the way back, right? To this, like the human condition.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And in the Book I write about Blaise Pascal in Penseiz and Kierkegaard in either or. Talking about boredom. About boredom as a kind of root of all evil, as this sort of, you know, Pascal writes about how the king has every amusement you could want, but he can't be alone with his own thoughts for a second. And part of what he's identifying there way before we get to the phone era, because we're all the king now. Right. We have an infinite amount of gestures in our phone is that A, it can be hard to be alone with your own thoughts, and that's something that predates the phone.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

B, your comfort with your own thoughts is dynamically changed by how much you have to do it.

[Hasan Piker]

Right. Right.

[Chris Hayes]

So we all, I think of our generation, like we had the experience of reading the back of the cereal box.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

At the breakfast table, of sitting on a couch and literally just like staring off into nothing.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And now increasingly we don't have that. And so I'm sure you have this. We all have this. Like, you park your car in a hydrant or double park it. You go into the coffee shop to get a cup of coffee.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

There's a line and you realize you haven't brought your phone.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure.

[Chris Hayes]

And you've got that, like, weird twinge of panic.

[Hasan Piker]

Like, why am I naked? Like, do I have. No.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, I'm screwed.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

I'm gonna. I'm gonna sit here. What am I gonna do?

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

And one of the things, the only bit of like, direct kind of self help lessons I think I've drawn from working on this book is spend 20 to 30 minutes a minimum with your own thoughts every day. Because you actually do need to rebuild that muscle. It really is like anything else. Like, you get out of practice and it gets harder and harder, but if you start doing it again, you find that, like, oh, right. This is actually enjoyable.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And we are in a situation now where we never have to be alone with our own thoughts.

[Hasan Piker]

Did you guys hear that X is suing the New York City Attorney General? Elon apparently wants to challenge the Stop Hiding Hate act because it will require X to disclose how much they moderate sensitive speech, claiming it would violate the First Amendment. Now, at hmdk, we just started using a platform called Ground News, which shows a breakdown of publications reporting on a story in which way they tend to lean politically, right, left or center. Now, this isn't about eliminating bias. We've all got biases. It's just trying to make you aware of potential biases of different publications so that you can factor that into your own analysis of the issue. For example, with that story about X, I was able to scroll between some of the 43 publications reporting on that lawsuit and I noticed a right leaning one included a photo of Elon Musk looking like a Business Class Seal Team 6, while the left and center chose photos that make him look like he's about to fire unicef. Huh. So you should use the link in the description or go to groundnews.com to get 40% off their vantage plan, the same one that I use here at HMBK that breaks down to just five bucks a month. For unlimited access, visit groundnews.com husun and subscribe today. I love me some summer sunshine, but even though the days are technically longer, I somehow find myself with less time. And now that my kids are out of school, I want to spend my time off work with them, not wasting hours on chores like meal prep. And that's where Factor comes in. Factor's Chef created dietitian approved meals are ready in just two minutes, giving me more time to build egregiously complicated pillow forts. With 45 weekly menu options, there are tons of fresh gourmet meals that'll work for you and your individual needs. Choose from options like calorie, smart, protein plus, keto, vegan, and more. It's delicious, fast, and keeps you on track. Factor saved my family so much time that I decided to order it for the entire office as well. Now my team is way more productive and our director Tyler over here is really benefiting from the extra fiber. Isn't that right, Tyler? Yeah, he's shy and I didn't pay him to say that for all the flavor and none of the fuss. Get [e-mail] hasan50off and use code hasan50off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code hasan50off@factor meals.com hasan50off for 50% off plus free shipping factormeals.com hassan50off Got it, Tyler. Got it. Great. Is it weird that when I read this, I was like, oh, Chris is going through his Eat Pray love face like you've, you are totally discovering Buddhism in a weird.

[Chris Hayes]

Absolutely. And I mean, I also think it's not surprising that there has been all of this interest in mindfulness.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

At exactly this moment. Because, like, the fact is, like, if you go back and you read like the Buddhist texts, like, this is pretty core to his central insights.

[Hasan Piker]

Totally.

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, he, you know, he phrases them, you know, his framework for understanding them are attachment and desire as opposed to attention.

[Hasan Piker]

Right. But Hinduism specifically talks about how your mind is almost like a monkey. It is constant.

[Chris Hayes]

Exactly. Yes.

[Hasan Piker]

Worrying.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah. And so that part of it, again, like, that part of its ancient. And in some ways, I think, like, the profundity of that ancientness is really helpful, whatever technological age you find yourself in.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

You can't outrun your own mind and you're going to be there with it.

[Hasan Piker]

Totally.

[Chris Hayes]

But I also think that, like, I was reading this essay about slave spirituals, and it's just so interesting. This didn't make it into the book, but I'd gone down this sort of discursive rabbit hole.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Because I was thinking about, like, work songs, and there's all this really interesting stuff about, like, why. Why the work songs? Right. And, you know, they're doing. They're trying to relieve their own minds from the. Just the punishing tyranny of this brutal work. And also the fact they can't control their own lies. Right. They have no autonomy.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure.

[Chris Hayes]

And the song becomes their own way. Right. Of, like, focusing the attention in a way that they have dominion over.

[Hasan Piker]

Oh, got it.

[Chris Hayes]

Right. So it's, like, empowering to, like, form of agency. It's a form of agency when you have no other agency. And, like. But it's also, like, that question of where do I put my mind when, you know, there's. When I can't get to control my body is a really profound one as well.

[Hasan Piker]

I'm going to go even deeper into this kind of, like, philosophical rabbit hole, because you and I, we're literally characters inside the slot machine. You are MSNBC's All in with Chris Hayes. I am somewhat known from Netflix and. Or YouTube. Okay. But our. Our whole M.O. is to grab people's attention and bring them to our house of wares. But it's essentially just media. We are chopping up content and telling them to take the Heisenberg blue. We are selling crack on the corner of iPhone 16 island. Like, that is the essence of our job. Are we part of the problem?

[Chris Hayes]

Well, sure. I mean, we. Yes.

[Hasan Piker]

Am I the problem? Like, I mean, I mean, here's what.

[Chris Hayes]

I would say about this. I mean, I think the thing that I would say specifically about journalism, which I think is a little distinct, is that one of the things about journalism is that there are competing professional ethics that you learn from the beginning. Like, no matter where you came up or on which sort of version of technology, you became a journalist. Like, I was writing for the Weekly alternative paper. You had to get people's attention, like headlines, leads, like you want to keep people's attention. But that is not the only thing you're trying to do. Right, Right. Alongside that, there's a whole bunch of other things. Like, I'm trying to tell the truth. I'm trying to give people the tools for self governance. And I think it's actually really useful to have an ethos where you have these tools, twin tensions that you're trying to navigate.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

I think part of the problem in the world we have now is increasingly people get their information about the world from people who don't have any other ethic other than what will maximize attention. Right, right. And so.

[Hasan Piker]

And nothing deeper than.

[Chris Hayes]

There's nothing else they're trying to do. Which again, that's. In some ways it's like, no, no shade. If you're making Get Ready With Me videos, like, I don't. I think that's like bad for the world.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure, sure.

[Chris Hayes]

But what ends up happening is like you're making Get Ready with Me videos and then like, you like say some stuff about the vaccine and then that video really hits really well.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

So we start doing more of that and then all of a sudden you're in this situation where people are getting their information about the world from a market that selects solely for maximizing attention.

[Hasan Piker]

Have you ever felt that? How do I beat the incentive structure of my own business? The news.

[Chris Hayes]

Think about every. It's the news stalks me every single day. I mean, all.

[Hasan Piker]

I think, I mean, I'll speak from stand up comedy. The majority of specials now are on Netflix. And one of the things that Netflix tells you is, hey, you want to start with your strongest material up top, which is an inversion of what used to be the structure of your act. You have your closer. Build to your closer.

[Chris Hayes]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

And now it's, hey, you better. You better put your closer at the beginning. But it. But.

[Chris Hayes]

And is that. Is that because they track when people are totally. Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

And I, and I, and Chris may not be a fan of my comedy, but I need, I need to grab you within the first five minutes. So hopefully you stick around to minute eight or 30 or 60. But that's. So as artists, as comedians and performers, we have to fight. The craft is asking us to do something more, more rich, deeper and more dynamic.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Build like, let this be an intimate act that builds totally climax. And the incentive structure is the opposite. And those are intention. And so how do you, as someone who works in news and literally has breaking News, I mean, that word is saying, hey, break your. Break your attention. Focus now on this. How do you not let that mountain kind of destroy the credibility of what you want to do and what you believe in?

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, that is literally the defining struggle of every day of my life. For the last 13 years, I've hosted a new show. I mean, truly, like, the reason I wrote this book is because all I think about, because attention is not a moral faculty. There's a great Walter Lippman quote from the Phantom Public. I quote in the book where he says, you know, the American people have a great interest in what happens in Versailles. He's covering Versailles after World War I and the, you know, reparations. The Germans gonna have to pay. He says Americans have a great interest in what's gonna happen in Versailles, but they're not interested in it. And it's like this is the conundrum. It's like I can feel like attentional pull here.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And these things, I think, are actually important now. Sometimes by happy accident, they overlap.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

And that's actually a good day.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Like, for me, that's like a not tortured day.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

Like yesterday, you know, I'm talking to you the day after these big elections in Wisconsin, there was a lot of attention on that. That's a really important story. That's an easy day. The days where it's like, oof, this is really important. But I don't. This is a hard thing to do on TV and is not really that attentionally salient. But this thing is a bright, shiny bauble. How do I mix them? Maybe I do this in the A. To your point.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

In the Netflix.

[Hasan Piker]

Let me start with the gap still here. Some weird clip of a gaff and then let me go.

[Chris Hayes]

And the thing that's also interesting that that Netflix thing is fascinating because one of the things that's important to think about is how all these incentives structure the actual stuff that we do. Right. So, you know, Art, we always lead with the biggest story, which the A block or the headline. You're talking about building on the back end. Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Build your closer.

[Chris Hayes]

Right. So when you think about building the closer, though. Right. Think about the. The setting in which that's developed inside a club. People aren't going to leave.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure.

[Chris Hayes]

Right. Think about this when you. If you have recently had the opportunity to go back and watch a 70s movie, Butch Cassie and the Sundance Sting or something like that.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, bro. They're so slow.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

It's crazy how slowly they develop. And the reason Is where are people going to go? They just paid money to come in the movie theater. You don't have, like, you've done it. They're there.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. Like, now do whatever you want. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

You're like, just. We're going to take 35 minutes to get to anything that is now out the window. Right.

[Hasan Piker]

All movies I rewatched Caddyshack.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Super long.

[Chris Hayes]

There's this whole story. They totally abandoned the first part.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I was like, this wouldn't make it through the new incentive structure.

[Chris Hayes]

Exactly.

[Hasan Piker]

The new model. Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And I think that, you know, so part of that is being. I mean, the only way. There's no way to resolve the tension that you're putting your finger on. Like, it is the animating tension of my professional career.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

The only thing I can do is try to be self aware about it. And like, the metaphor that I use for what I do is like, is. Is the metaphor of the sailboat where you've got the wind blowing, which is the attention of the audience.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

You can't just ignore it and be like, I'm sailing into the wind. Like, you won't go anywhere. Yeah. But you also just go like, well, we're just going to go where the wind blows us.

[Hasan Piker]

Like, that's the whole. That's insane too.

[Chris Hayes]

Right. So the whole point of it is, you get good enough of the craft that you can take this energy, which is the sort of demand. Audience demand, the exogenous flows of attention.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

And then you can use your craft to get to where you want to go.

[Hasan Piker]

I want to also talk about this idea of when, when we say pay attention, I want to ask you, how much attention should we pay to the news? Like, what's the actual cost? Like, tell our audience at home, they're clearly like people that want to be informed. Yeah, but there is a finite cost.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to. This is a bit of an admission against interest.

[Hasan Piker]

Okay.

[Chris Hayes]

Meaning, like, you know what? I. I guess in some institutional sense I should be like, you should tune into MSNBC all day long.

[Hasan Piker]

All day long. Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

I don't actually believe that. Like, I actually believe that.

[Hasan Piker]

Like, he said it here first, for.

[Chris Hayes]

Instance, you know, the ritual of.

[Hasan Piker]

No, but you guys are the pay attention police and pay attention. Democracy is on the line and it is on the line.

[Chris Hayes]

It is. I, I think, look, the thing I tell people is like the basic ritual of like a morning paper or a morning, you know, the morning paper or a morning TV show or NPR in the morning, like something like that?

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

And then some. The evening news or reading the paper at night that you got in the morning, like, that's a pretty good routine for knowing what's going on. Like some, you know, like two times a day. Like in the morning you read the paper, you watch Morning Joe or you, you know, do whatever. And then at night, like, come home, watch my show.

[Hasan Piker]

All 60 minutes if you can. 44 minutes, plus the 16 minutes of AD breaks. Come on.

[Chris Hayes]

If you have a Nielsen box, particularly, you should. If you don't, I guess it doesn't. It's like a tree falling in the forest.

[Hasan Piker]

I want you.

[Chris Hayes]

No.

[Hasan Piker]

Give you a number. So Dwayne, my trainer is like, he's cut to the chase. At times when I'm. When I'm lollygagging, he's like, I need 30 minutes from you. Every day I need 30 fucking minutes from you. Hm. And I need your heart rate up for 30 minutes. Okay. You think 15. 15 is a good, good number per se, to be informed, to save democracy?

[Chris Hayes]

Oh, no, I think, I think, Look, I think if you. I would, I would say for people that are. I would say 30 minutes to an hour of some kind of news. What do you want me to say?

[Hasan Piker]

I mean, I, you know, Chris, I.

[Chris Hayes]

Mean, I spent six or seven hours or 12 hours a day doing it, so that means nothing.

[Hasan Piker]

Three hours when they get home.

[Chris Hayes]

Like, okay, but here's the thing that I'll say about this. This.

[Hasan Piker]

And again, spouse.

[Chris Hayes]

No shade to anyone for any showering.

[Hasan Piker]

Dude, children, connection, buddy, look, maybe intimacy.

[Chris Hayes]

Do you get the screen time notification on your phone on Sundays?

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. It's gnarly.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, it's gnarly. What does it say? It says five hours. Four and a half. Four or five. So it's like people are like, I mean, again, I'm not guilting or shading anyone. People should do what they want to do. Like, I'm not. But it is funny because people will be like, I just have no time for the news. And it's like, I absolutely know that your screen time notification is five and a half hours, like 100%. It definitely is. Like, we actually have, like time use data on this.

[Hasan Piker]

Like, people spend a lot of time.

[Chris Hayes]

On their phones, an unbelievable amount of time. All right, look, if you could just do 15 minutes, that's great. If you could do up to an hour, I would say, like after an hour. Look, sometimes, like, I don't. Look, with some people who are news junkies, there's a mix of Civic responsibility, entertainment, which is also fine. Like, if news is your hobby. Like, I watch.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

I'm like an NBA junkie to the point where, like, I have league pass. And I'm like, It's like a 10:30 Pacer Sacramento Kings game.

[Hasan Piker]

Don't. Don't you dare throw shade at the kids.

[Chris Hayes]

And it's like 25 point lead. And I'm watching it.

[Hasan Piker]

Great. Thank you.

[Chris Hayes]

Because I'm a sick person who just loves basketball. I'm like, there are some people who have that relationship to the news. And it's like, go to town. Like, do whatever you want to do, but you don't have to spend six to eight to 10 hours a day consuming news to be an informed citizen.

[Hasan Piker]

Let's talk about this idea that you.

[Chris Hayes]

Are you a king? Sam?

[Hasan Piker]

I'm a huge Kings fan.

[Chris Hayes]

I grew up. Oh, right.

[Hasan Piker]

I grew up in Northern California. Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Wait, so.

[Hasan Piker]

So I thought you were about to say 10:30pm it's the Pacers. Kings. This.

[Chris Hayes]

I'm turning, actually. I love this Kings team is sort of lame this year, unfortunately. Unfortunately. They've been fun previously. Yeah, I'm gonna. Can I sidetrack the conversation for one.

[Hasan Piker]

Second or do you have a heart out? Otherwise, I'm gonna have to hold you to this.

[Chris Hayes]

I know. Again, I'll put five minutes on the clock.

[Hasan Piker]

Okay.

[Chris Hayes]

The Oakland A. Sacramento situation is so insane.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. Yeah. But we deserve this.

[Chris Hayes]

But have you seen the. Have you seen the trailer they're doing the press conferences in, bro? They have, like. They don't have the infrastructure for Major League Baseball team.

[Hasan Piker]

Don't. Don't. Don't do this. Don't.

[Chris Hayes]

So they have this trailer that looks like a porta potty.

[Hasan Piker]

Those that are listening that aren't familiar with the depth of this, here's what MSNBC's Chris Hayes is doing. For years and years and years, Sacramento has asked, begged, pleaded.

[Chris Hayes]

Yes.

[Hasan Piker]

Commissioner Adam Silver. Please. David Stern, R.I.P. we were. Please let us host the All Star Game in Sacramento. They hosted in fucking Indianapolis. The fuck are we doing? And they refuse. In fucking Utah. They refuse Salt Lake City. Are you fucking. And they refuse to let us host the All Star Weekend in Sacramento because we, quote, don't have the hotel accommodations. So let me get this straight. We can host Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, and that's government in action.

[Chris Hayes]

Is that really true?

[Hasan Piker]

He was the guy. He was.

[Chris Hayes]

He had to be. No, but I mean that. They won't let. They won't let Sacramento.

[Hasan Piker]

That is true. Because of, like, the city can't accommodate.

[Chris Hayes]

All right, Sorry I sidetracked us.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. So they make it sound like it's like this, this underdeveloped nation. How could we possibly host the Olympics here? It's. It's war torn. I mean, the infrastructure is gone.

[Chris Hayes]

It.

[Hasan Piker]

It's, it's been bombed to rubble. It's like the Capitals.

[Chris Hayes]

What are we talking about?

[Hasan Piker]

The capital is there. My in. And so the joke that you're making is that now the Oakland A's, which are going to go to Vegas, they now are playing at the Sacramento River Cats stadium, which is our minor league baseball team.

[Chris Hayes]

Yes.

[Hasan Piker]

And now they're doing press conferences and essentially what looks like the portables of your elementary school.

[Chris Hayes]

Yes. Because they don't have. Because it's not a major league stadium. And this entire thing is happening.

[Hasan Piker]

You're saying we don't have the infrastructure.

[Chris Hayes]

Is what you're saying. Basically. Yeah. You gotta. Can someone pull up. Can someone pull up the. The picture?

[Hasan Piker]

Don't pull this up. I know what this looks like, man. I know what. I know what you're talking about.

[Chris Hayes]

I gotta show you the picture. It's so freaking funny. I gotta go to my. Sorry, my baseball thread here.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure. Go to your baseball thread.

[Chris Hayes]

Oh, yeah, here it is. See, I'm pulling up an instant. That's what they're doing.

[Hasan Piker]

Listen, listen.

[Chris Hayes]

Hey, you see that? Yeah. Anyway, I love Sacramento. It's a great town. I actually mean that.

[Hasan Piker]

You. Have you ever been.

[Chris Hayes]

I have been in.

[Hasan Piker]

Midtown's great.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

They. They really.

[Chris Hayes]

I really like. So wait, no, just to get back. So you're so. Just to go back so you can cut all that out. The, the thing I would say is like, some people just like to consume the news because that's what they like and like. So they should consume as much as they want. But you shouldn't miss. My point is that you shouldn't mistake.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Like there's people who are news junkies who want to do eight to ten hours a day.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

You don't need that to be an informed citizen. That's my, my point.

[Hasan Piker]

Copy that. You talk about this idea of the paradox of the star and the fan. The star seeks recognition and gets instead attention. What is this, this idea, the star and the fan?

[Chris Hayes]

The fundamental dynamic of social attention at scale on the Internet.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Which I think is interesting because I think a lot of people can't relate to it because a lot of people don't like post and don't consume. Like don't have incoming attention from strangers.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

But Also, the. The psychological destruction of this dynamic is the most important thing driving our politics. Like, Elon Musk is the ultimate example of this. Basically, social attention from strangers is weird. We've known forever. It drives people crazy. That's how we have tropes about, like, the rock star and the young starlet. Right? Like, you're not ready for fame. And I'm sure you've experienced this in your own life. I've experienced. It's weird to be recognized. It's weird for strangers to have an opinion about you at a certain point. Because of social media, we democratize that experience of the madness of fame for any teenager with a phone.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

All right. Now everyone can have social attention from strangers. Like, remember Jim Morrison? What did him in? Let's just give it to everyone, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now we have that for everyone. And it drives people crazy.

[Hasan Piker]

Everyday civilians can become celebrities.

[Chris Hayes]

Right? And because. And that's. And increasingly that the social status hierarchy of the. Of the nation's culture centers around being known by people. I mean, if you read surveys about what teenagers want to be, they want to be influencers, right? Like, and what happens is attention. Social attention isn't what we actually want from people. People. What we want is recognition. We want to be seen as human by another human. We want the things that come from relationships, whether that's love or friendship or kinship. Right.

[Hasan Piker]

Acknowledgment.

[Chris Hayes]

Exactly. All these things. Yeah. What social media does is it gives you this kind of synthetic taste that's close enough to recognition, but not actually that you keep chasing it. And you've.

[Hasan Piker]

Cal Newport writes about this, that it's a simulacrum.

[Chris Hayes]

Exactly.

[Hasan Piker]

Or feels like it.

[Chris Hayes]

It feels like something real, but it's not. And you've seen, like, Elon Musk. Elon Musk has truly driven himself, I think, insane chasing this. I mean, if you look at, like, the. The bar chart of his posts, he's posting 24 hours a day. He's constantly, like, he's obsessed with this feedback from strangers, and he's looking for something that he can't find there, which is like, please love me as a human being.

[Hasan Piker]

Right.

[Chris Hayes]

It's like, you're not. You're not going to find it in.

[Hasan Piker]

Your mentions or understanding, whatever it is.

[Chris Hayes]

You'Re not going to find in your mentions. You're going to find it in, like, your friends and family.

[Hasan Piker]

So how do people like Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and Kanye west, how do they become the holy trinity, the rock of the attention age?

[Chris Hayes]

Because they. Those three. There's a House Judiciary Committee, The Republican staffers in the House Judiciary Committee at one point a few years ago, just posted on their Twitter feed, kanye, Elon, Trump.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And it was like, yeah, right. That is the access. And what those. First of all, what they are, are trolls. They are so obsessed with attention that they will court negative attention, even if it makes people dislike them, because they need the attention. And increasingly, we live in a culture dominated by trolls because attention is the most valuable resource, and because everything underneath that is kind of broken down, people chase it as an end to and of itself. What it means is that negative attention is as good as positive attention. And if you start just thinking about attention as opposed to love, relationships, respect. Right. Then you just chase. You just chase attention. And what you get are figures like Kanye and Elon and the president, United States.

[Hasan Piker]

You cover politics every day. How do you out troll a troll?

[Chris Hayes]

I don't. I just don't have this. I don't try to troll because I don't really have a troll's nature in me. I mean, part of the thing about trolling.

[Hasan Piker]

Oh, I'm not asking you. I'm saying even as, like, how does.

[Chris Hayes]

Anyone deal with it? Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

How would anyone out troll?

[Chris Hayes]

This is.

[Hasan Piker]

How would anyone out troll, Elon?

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, this is a real question. I think, you know, there's a. There's a question about, do you fight fire with fire or fight fire with water? And I don't know the answer to that yet. One thing I do think is you.

[Hasan Piker]

Do have professional wrestling. Has the heel turn, right?

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Which is famously when, you know, Hogan had a heel turn when he joined WW and nwo. Like, this is a thing.

[Chris Hayes]

Totally. I mean, Kanye just did. Do you see Kanye's last interview with DJ Academics?

[Hasan Piker]

No, I did not.

[Chris Hayes]

He is in a full black KKK outfit.

[Hasan Piker]

Okay.

[Chris Hayes]

So it's like, full, like, black hood eyes.

[Hasan Piker]

Oh, geez.

[Chris Hayes]

But he's in his sort of notable economy way, like, just doing an interview in it.

[Hasan Piker]

Oh, okay.

[Chris Hayes]

And it sort of goes unremarked.

[Hasan Piker]

Right, right, right. Oh, he doesn't comment on it. Okay, got it.

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, he does at one point. I just saw clips. There's only so much of like.

[Hasan Piker]

Sure.

[Chris Hayes]

That I can take. You can just cut in a little clip of that as we disguise it, discuss it. Look, I don't think you can out troll a troll, and I don't think that you can build a foundation for actually, like, humane, compassionate, righteous politics on trolling. So you have to figure out something Else. But what you do have to do is you do have to center attention in how you think about civic discourse.

[Hasan Piker]

And I mean, really what I'm asking is, does Mr. Beast need to be the campaign strategy advisor for every major political campaign? I'm not even joking.

[Chris Hayes]

No. I mean, the thing that's so interesting about Mr. Beast, if you listen to his interviews, is like, how attuned he, like, yeah, he didn't set out with a vision.

[Hasan Piker]

But Senator Cory Booker literally just did a Mr. Beast thing.

[Chris Hayes]

But that's. That's exactly what I was going to say is like, Booker doing that was like, hey, here's an example of just trying something like, maybe it works and maybe it doesn't. I actually even feel this way, weird as it is about the Newsom podcast, which, like, I think is kind of lame and weird, but I don't know, he's trying something like, it's weird for the governor to host a bunch of right wing influencers on his podcast, but it's also trying something like, I like what Cory Booker did more than I like what Gavin Newsom did. These are different visions of it. But the fundamental thing here, and you know Mr. Beast learned this through trial and error on the algorithm, is you have to try things like. That's the other thing, is that, like, it's a quantity game. It's how many shots you take.

[Hasan Piker]

Totally.

[Chris Hayes]

And no one's keeping track of your percentages.

[Hasan Piker]

That's going to be the thumbnail. It's just, it's going to be Cory Booker. I did a speech for 24 hours and I didn't pee.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Zach, how did he do it?

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, there we go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Zach, freeze that. AOC gives a homeless guy a Ferrari.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. That's right. That's exactly it.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

That should be the thumbnail for this interview. Sure.

[Hasan Piker]

Done. Zach, print it. Bernie Sanders fights a cobra for healthcare. It's like.

[C]

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[Chris Hayes]

Day.

[C]

We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you Already compost, great. But of course there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where mill comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can handle nearly anything from a turkey carcass to like 20 avocado pits. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never ever smells. Mill makes dry, nutrient rich grounds that you can use in your garden, add to your compost, feed to your chickens. Or mill can get them back to a small farm for you. But you kind of have to live with mill to really get it. And that's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Hasan Piker]

What do we do about it? We're living inside of the slot machine. How do you and I book a Southwest flight out of Vegas? Back to sanity?

[Chris Hayes]

I think. Look, I think there's a few levels to do this. One, that personal level of like take 30 minutes every day. Yeah. With your own thoughts. Two is like, I really do think people getting together physically is really more and more important. There's all sorts of like, you can find a million tips about like leave your phone out of your room and charge it in another floor and all that stuff. Fine. Right, Right.

[Hasan Piker]

And you talk about attention farmers markets with in the book. Which sounds like the most Brooklyn shit ever.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, but here's, here's why I think it's important.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Industrial food production reached a point in the 70s and 80s of like a kind of dead end that people started to rebel against.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

If you go and read like American recipe books from the 70s, it's like all jello salads and Campbell's casseroles. There's even like meme accounts that like are like 70s recipes.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And what happened is people started to be like, I don't want to eat this flop. And at the first it was like weird bohemians. It was like, I'm going to start a whole grain store. Right, right. I'm going to. Right. And that kind of thing became an entire both countercultural movement, a set of institutions and ethos, and then a set of businesses that were. That transformed American culinary culture 100%. And I think we are in right now. I think we are in the sort of attentional version of like the 80s jello salad slop era.

[Hasan Piker]

Got it.

[Chris Hayes]

That I think like people will look back on this the same way we look at those recipes.

[Hasan Piker]

And we're like, are you insane?

[Chris Hayes]

That's gross. Like, and for instance, even like, one thing that I think increasing. You're gonna see so much focus is on schools, which makes sense.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

I think more and more indoor places, whether coffee shops, restaurants are just gonna be like, no phones.

[Hasan Piker]

I mean, we do that with comedy shows.

[Chris Hayes]

Comedy.

[Hasan Piker]

One of the first yonder is one of the first people. And shout out to yonder and Chappelle, they were like, lock the phone yonder. Like, I need you here for an hour.

[Chris Hayes]

Yonder has done it for comedy and they've done it for concerts.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

But I think you're going to find different ways. And you don't even have to use a yonder approach. Like, when you go to snl, they don't use yonder. They're just like, don't take your phone out. We'll take you out. Yeah. Like, you know, and you want to minimize the amount of friction and conflict that, like the wait staff has to do. But, like, I feel like you could do that in a restaurant and people be like, well, you know, I'm away from my kid who has a sitter. It's like, yeah, my parents were away from us. Yeah, was fine. Like, you'll figure it out.

[Hasan Piker]

Well, all right.

[Chris Hayes]

So I think there's, so there's, there's individual things, there's cultural things, and then I do think there's actually like legislative, you know, regulation to think about.

[Hasan Piker]

Well, to me, this is. The problem is, is that you've opted me in vis a vis digital microplastics and what I mean by that. And I, and I've told these guys this. They've, they've seen my boomer rant. The QR code was the gateway into Dante's inferno of hell. Meaning when I would go to a restaurant and I go, can I please have a physical menu? They go, QR Code. And I go, please, for the love of God. I came here because now we're both.

[Chris Hayes]

Taking our phone out.

[Hasan Piker]

So let's talk about the thing that will trigger everybody in the comments, which is the kids. Okay. I have, I have a seven year old. A five year old. You have three children.

[Chris Hayes]

Yep.

[Hasan Piker]

I have a question you can answer. You cannot answer. Do your, do your children have smartphones?

[Chris Hayes]

So my oldest started taking the subway to school in sixth grade and got a smartphone then. Yeah, the middle child has. Goes to school often by himself and has a watch for, like, being able to be like, I'm going to the Y and not the youngest.

[Hasan Piker]

So there's a lot of, there's a lot of, like, middle schoolers that do the Dick Tracy of just like, hey, Mom. Or there's the dumb phones that can just call like, mom, dad.

[Chris Hayes]

Exactly. So, like, and like, you know, this is something we're wrestling with all the time. I have. I don't want my 13 year old on social media, but then she sort of lobbied for Snapchat, which is sort of a messaging app. Right. But it's also very gamified. And I don't love that, you know, we're all dealing with these, you know, look, micro decisions.

[Hasan Piker]

I have a daughter, right? And the thing. And she's still seven and it's so great. And by the way, if you love hoops, like, she's starting to dribble. And this is. This is my new dad, Flex. I let her fucking dribble the rock in the house. I don't give a fuck. Destroy the house. She dribbles like, she dribbles all over the house.

[Chris Hayes]

My son is calling me on his watch.

[Hasan Piker]

Wait, do you want to pick up.

[Chris Hayes]

Hey, buddy, I'm in the middle of a podcast. What's up? Okay, great. I'll come pick you up and bring you to basketball. Love you, bud. Keep that one in if you want.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, but, yeah, my daughter straight up dribbles the rock in the house. Yeah, yeah, she'll. She'll. She'll.

[Chris Hayes]

That's great.

[Hasan Piker]

That's a cool bouncing. That's a cool thing.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah, but are you, like, work on your arm offhand?

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, actually, I tell her to be like, hey, dupo, you can hoop.

[Chris Hayes]

I've seen you hoop. I don't.

[Hasan Piker]

Don't say that. I'm okay. Yeah, I'm okay. No, because when you say that, people really do come for you. And now, now the NBA guys have podcasts and it's like, you do.

[Chris Hayes]

I know, but here's the thing I said to my son about basketball, which is really important. I said, the thing about basketball is that it's infinite, almost the layers of how good people can be.

[Hasan Piker]

I'm good for an Indian weatherman. Like, I'm good for a guy who looks like me and people like. But I am not good in comparison to. Yeah, but like, none of guys who can really play.

[Chris Hayes]

Right. But, like, there's D1 players who are not good compared to NBA players. There's guys who started at D3 who couldn't. Like. Yeah, the thing about basketball is that, like, it's. It goes up so far. Yeah. It's all relative.

[Hasan Piker]

Here's my fear with, with her. Is that in the, the impending doom that I feel with the schools, which is. You're forcing me to opt in through the QR code.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Hey, we need this to check in. Yeah, it's. It's the guise of safety. This is for you. Totally agree, guys. Of safety and convenience. But I know the moment she picks up that rectangle of sadness, it is the gateway portal into anxiety and depression and comparison and anorexia and all of these just like horrible things that are affecting our kids. And I'm seeing this seven year old just dribble and be spunky and fun and spontaneous. And I know the moment she gets that all of those other things have entered the table. Now, I can try to fight, I can try to box them out, but they have entered the chat quite literally. And I'm at this weird juncture of the. We're playing this very dark, sadistic game of would you rather us parents? Which is, we know it's the phones that are causing all of this. And, and this is a big, this is a huge topic on pta, Reddit, where they're like, do not take away the phones. I have to be able to call my kid if there's a school shooter. And I'm like, deranged. Which way do you want it? Do you want to.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, it's not deranged. I disagree with that.

[Hasan Piker]

I don't want to be able to call your kid if there's a school shooter or give them a phone so they become so mentally ill that they become the school shooter. Like, this is what we're dealing with. I know it's a dark joke. And that is a dark joke dot com, like, and I have to do that now because this is on the, in the Internet. It's a dark joke. I am joking.

[Chris Hayes]

But.

[Hasan Piker]

But that is the weird. If this was a meme, that's the weird meme. And how do you reconcile?

[Chris Hayes]

I do think this thing of, like, I do think that kids need more independence and freedom. And I do think the phone becomes this, like, weird tether and anchor. And the point I just said before about, oh, if you go out to dinner and you have the sitter but you don't have your phone and something happens. Like. Right, yeah. Well, we figured that out for decades. It's like, you know, yeah, you can tell them what restaurant you're going to and they call the restaurant. Well, this is where, like, you know all this stuff. I do think that this is one place where I agree with. There's a few places I agree with Jonathan Haidt's you know, anxious generation is that everyone focuses sort of on the phone part of that book. But another big part of it is like, kids need independence and free play and free time. And like my, you know, my, my kids do have that. Like my 11 year old right now is at the park by himself.

[Hasan Piker]

He's just shooting hoops.

[Chris Hayes]

He's playing in a playground, but he'll go to the Y by himself. Okay. My 13 year old commutes on the train every day, New York City. She navigates the train. Like, I really, really strongly believe in giving kids like, physical autonomy to a certain extent. And not every kid's the same. I'm not telling any parent, like, we all make these judgments. It's not like I'm on my high horse. But I do think as a, a key part of this whole thing is like the phone becomes an extension of parental neurosis in a way that I think can be really unhealthy.

[Hasan Piker]

I was also grappling with this, of the idea of is it worse or are we romanticizing the past? Because I saw this old New York magazine cover and, you know, I become the back in my day.

[Chris Hayes]

Totally.

[Hasan Piker]

And we can throw that up real quick. Oh, yeah, it's, you know, this was a New York magazine cover in June of 1995.

[Chris Hayes]

Do you remember how big that movie was?

[Hasan Piker]

This movie? So this was Harmony Korin's movie. It was called Kids. And if you look at that title, the Kids Aren't All Right. The summer's most controversial movie is a disturbing picture of sex and dope and casual brutality. By the way, this was my dad's worst fucking nightmare when it came to me. This is exactly what he thought would happen if I left the house after 3:30pm after school. He'd be like, you're going to go walk outside with.

[Chris Hayes]

Get a 40.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. Who has a 40? You might meet a white girl who has short shorts.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

You might have sex with her. And then you wear your, and then wear your hat backwards. And all of that seemed pretty cool to me at the time. I was like, I'm in for that. Seems pretty.

[Chris Hayes]

Sounds like a great day.

[Hasan Piker]

But. But like, you look at the numbers now. There's declining birth rates, kids are dating later. Kids are. Alcohol consumption is way down. So is it like, is it better now? That's the thing. Is it, was it worse then?

[Chris Hayes]

You see that Dax Shepard had Jonathan Haidta and they had a really good exchange about this where it's like. And it is People do really need to understand this.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes.

[Chris Hayes]

A lot of the things that we were like, this is what's wrong with teenagers today, which was drugs, alcohol, teen pregnancy, even eating disorders, like, have declined a bit from the peak when I was in 9th or 10th grade. They've all gone down. And part of that is because people are on the phones and stuff. They're not going out and drinking at 14 the way that kids did back then because they're bored.

[Hasan Piker]

And I mean, by the way, the number one show on Netflix right now is Adolescence. And it's this weird. Again, a weird, dark dealer's choice. This is a weird thing of like, would you rather have your son inside his bedroom watching Andrew Tate videos or hanging out with that skateboarder who is carpet bombing the entire East Village with aids? Which way do you want it?

[Chris Hayes]

I mean, to me, I, Are you asking me? I'm sure, I mean, I, I, this is my nostalgia, but I would rather have him out than watching Andrew Tate.

[Hasan Piker]

You're like, just go out and skateboard through the East Village and you'll figure it out.

[Chris Hayes]

Yeah. I mean, partly, again, is like, this one of these dumb things that people, middle aged people do. It's like, well, it was fine for us, but I do think it's important actually to think about these trade offs, because they are, I think they are really, they are very obviously connected. Yeah, very obviously. I don't think anyone can tell you with a straight face, like, all this stuff happening and the phones are not related. But I do think it's worthwhile talking about these trade offs. It's worthwhile sort of not being ahistorical about this whole thing.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Fundamentally, one of the big messages I have is, I think with this conversation we do have a tendency to displace our own anxiety onto the kids. And it's really true. And, like, they are like, we should think about them. But a lot of this conversation is about us.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

And about how we live in the world and how comfortable we are with our own minds. I mean, every parent has had the following experience. Sitting there on your phone, your son comes over, he's like, dad, can I have screen time? Like, no, just go figure it out.

[Hasan Piker]

Right, right, right. Yeah.

[Chris Hayes]

Everyone has done that. And so it's like, go read a book. Yeah, go read a book. Come on. And I think that, so I do think that, like, part of it is like, starting with us is a, is is one thing to say, let's start with us. Yeah, start with us.

[Hasan Piker]

Go to settings on your phone. Let me see your screen time.

[Chris Hayes]

Oh, my God, dude, really?

[Hasan Piker]

Hey, man, you've been preaching all day. I want to see if the pastor's really about that life.

[Chris Hayes]

No, I'm not about that life. It's like I wrote a recovery memoir, and I'm a drunk, bro. This.

[Hasan Piker]

Come on. Show me. Show me.

[Chris Hayes]

This is tough.

[Hasan Piker]

It's not worse than Ma Husson. Show me.

[Chris Hayes]

No, it's not. I will say I do this professionally, but it's not a good look.

[Hasan Piker]

Six hours, 28 minutes. God damn.

[Chris Hayes]

I wrote the book for a reason, man. Smash that, like, button, smash. And follow, ladies and gentlemen, follow the podcast.

[Hasan Piker]

This is great. That was great, man.

[Chris Hayes]

That was awesome.