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- [00:00]
Ben
Chat. In this episode of Hana Cosmos, we determine that anyone who performs a seance or uses a Ouija board is in fact, cooked.
- [00:09]
Brian
This episode is brought to you by Zilli Creative Works, bringing you face to face Family fun that is fierce, fast and affordable.
- [00:21]
Ben
The world is not just stuff.
- [00:28]
Brian
Minus 111.9.
- [00:40]
Ben
The widely publicized mystery of the flying saucers may soon be solved. Orpheus was a bard in the Thracian royal court of ancient Greece. One day, his father, Apollo, brought him a lyre and taught him how to play. Apollo, the God of music, trained Orpheus to become the greatest lord of song alive. His music enchanted gods and mortals alike until his reputation grew into something almost divine, worthy of veneration. As he matured, it was said that no living thing, friend or foe, could resist the moving charm of Orpheus's music. When he came of age, Orpheus was captivated by the beauty of a young dryad named Eurydice. He pursued her hand in marriage and poured all of his longing and strength into a song that won her heart. Eurydice gave herself over to Orpheus, and the two were wed. But a shade of doom was already falling over the couple. Hymenaeus, the God of weddings, prophesied that their perfect bliss would not last. Time passed until one day Eurydice walked through the forest with other nymphs. A Thracian shepherd named Aristeas caught sight of her and was bewitched. He craved her beauty for himself and gave chase to the beautiful dryad across valleys, ridgelines and hilltops until the web of fate was ready to tighten around the young nymph. One misstep meant the end of the world for both her and Orpheus. Beneath a tree, its tangled roots hollowed out by the nearby river, a coiled snake lay in waiting. Sensing the chaos approaching, the woman fleeing and the shepherd pursuing the snake rose in defense, preparing to strike at anything that threatened it. Then, in an instant, a bare foot landed above the root of its den and pressed deep into the soft dirt. The snake, fearing for its life, attacked. Its fangs, shot up from the roots and sank into Eurydice's ankle. And just like that, the chase ended. The beautiful Dryad herself, a child of the gods, fell dead. In the same breath, her body was swallowed by the earth. Aristeas, weary from the chase and ashamed of his failure, returned silently to his flock. Eurydice's soul slipped into the underworld. She crossed the black waters of the Acheron, passed beneath the watchful gaze of Cerberus, and entered the dim halls of Hades. And his queen, Persephone. Above in the world of light, Orpheus felt the horror of her death. Like a dagger to his chest, his heart burst. He wailed, tore at his clothes and sang songs of such grief that the earth itself seemed to mourn. Beasts, men, flowers and even rocks groaned at his sorrow. The gods, those who devour and rule, heard his lament and for the first time pitied him. Seeing creation soften toward the plight, Orpheus resolved to attempt the unthinkable. He made the perilous journey to the realm of the dead, finding his feet cooled by the lapping waters of the Styx. The shades like fog, smoke and mist reached out for him with their own prayers. But he cared nothing for them. He sought only the ghost of his love. If he could but glimpse her soul, he would know it and all else would fade away. So he waded through the sea of spirits and played his lyre for Charon, the ferryman of hell. Karen, moved by the music, relented from his eternal refusal and ferried Orpheus across the river. On the other side, Orpheus raised his lyre again and played a tune of overwhelming despair. Even Cerberus, the monstrous guardian of the underworld, was subdued, lulled into a sleep by the melody. Thus Orpheus passed through the gates that separate the dead from the living. He descended into the earth's cavernous belly, past the boiling fires of Tartarus and the golden fields of Elysium. His journey was a labyrinth of mystique and menace, traps and trickery set by dark magic through a night blacker than any known to man. Orpheus pressed on. He looked back in what could only be called an inverse beatific vision, seeing behind him the cruelty he had endured and scorning fate's vindictiveness. Then, turning forward again, he found himself face to face with the deathless rulers of the underworld. Hades glared with something like remorse. Persephone's eyes swelled with open hearted misery. And yet Orpheus trembled. What can man say to the gods? What can does a mortal have against the immortal? Naked and ashamed, Orpheus nearly abandoned his mission. He would have turned back, would have rejoined the miserable throng of men on the surface if not for the divine blood of Apollo that coursed through his own veins. He remembered his love. He remembered the delight of Eurydice. In desperation, Orpheus took up his lyre once more. Tears fell from his cheeks and whetted the strings. And so it was that the gods of death, the brother of Zeus and the daughter of Artemis, were moved by his grief. At Last, Orpheus collapsed. Exhausted, weeping, he knelt before the thrones of death. Hades stood and pronounced his judgment. He granted the resurrection of Eurydice, but only on one condition. Since no man had ever entered death without despairing of life. No man could return to life without despairing of death. Eurydice would walk behind Orpheus the whole way back to the land of the living. And he would be forbidden to look back at her for any reason. If he did, she would be lost to him forever. Though confused, Orpheus was overjoyed. Hope surged in his chest. He thought himself patient. He thought himself strong enough to endure any trick the gods might devise. He accepted the terms and left sorrow melting away, replaced by rekindled hope. He began his ascent. Eyes locked forward. He was ready. Ready for the screams that might come from behind. The kind of cruel deception the gods might conjure. He was ready for noise, for illusion, for anything. But what he wasn't ready for was silence. No screams. No laughter. No cries of torment or joy. Most troubling of all, no footsteps. He heard nothing. No sound of Eurydice following him at all. It was almost too much to bear. Was it all a cruel dream? Was Eurydice behind him, but only as a shade, an echo of herself, untouchable and fading? Would he even be able to see her if he made it back? For the entire journey, these thoughts plagued him. He fought the temptation to look back. With every step, he wrestled with doubt, clinging to a stubborn, threadbare perseverance. At last, as the light of the upper world broke into the cave, Orpheus faltered. How, he wondered, could the warmth of the sun reach him and still no sound come from behind? In a final and desperate moment of madness, Orpheus turned and he saw her. Her hand reached out to him, her face carved with grief and longing. And then, in an instant, she was gone, pulled backward into the shadows of Hades. Orpheus, only steps from the surface, had looked back. He lost his faith in the end. And with it lost Eurydice forever. Everyone is born with a fear of the dark. Children fear the absence of visible light. And sometimes, so do grownups. But a deeper, more mature fear of darkness is not about what we can or can't see. It's a fear of the unknown. The fear of doubt. We long to know things that it is not our place to know. Faced with this fear, humanity responds in one of two ways. One path seeks consolation in a faith that provides certain hope amid the darkness. The other path strives to peer behind the veil, to unveil what must remain hidden. For the Christian, it is the former. For the Christian, even death, the greatest darkness becomes a gateway to perfect, perfect, renewed life. But for the unbeliever, it is the latter. In his own way, he tries to wrest the infinitely complex knowledge of God from God himself. It is a fruitless task. For some, it leads to despair and nihilism. For others it leads to occultism, to the depravity of forbidden knowledge. And it is that final path that concerns us today. What happens when a man, whether purposefully or by accident, sets foot on the road that leads behind the veil? What dangers await him? What lies? In today's episode of haunted cosmos? We will find that both the dangers and the deceptions are limitless. In the realm of the unseen, unbound by time, man is a fish out of water. He will bite at any hook, no matter how unconvincing the bait. Just like Orpheus, the motives behind the longing to cheat the darkness don't matter. In the end, all such paths lead to the same place. Despair. Despair and destruction.
- [09:49]
Brian
Darren Evans was a teenager in love with his neighbor in 1982. Well, I say neighbor. They lived across the Arkansas river from one another in the growing city of Tulsa. Darren was a friendly and athletic high achiever at school. His girlfriend, Jamie, was a beauty of the Midwest. Her dark hair was long and her green eyes were big and thoughtful. Her smile lit Darren up every time he snuck out of his grandma's house to ford the river and surprise her on the opposite bank late at night. One summer day, Jamie's father, Joe, watched as the plumber he'd hired emerged from the crawl space beneath the house with a cumbersome wooden board in his hands. It was a Ouija board, though back then they called them spirit boards, and it was very old. The plumber had found a handmade wooden planchette alongside it. The set had been tucked in the middle of a pile of old junk dusty jars, yellowed papers, scraps of trash. Joe called his daughter and Darren over to take a look. When the kids arrived, they found Joe standing over the board, now set on a porch table, examining it with obvious discomfort. Darrin leaned in over Joe's shoulder. The board was far bigger than he expected. It was worn and weathered from however many years it had spent under the house, but the etchings in the wood were still legible. Strange symbols, esoteric, maybe even Enochian, lined the edges of the board. Framed in ornate flourishes in the center were deep impressions of the Alphabet in a set of numbers. For all of this, Darren was deeply fascinated. Then Joe turned the board over to examine the back. There, among a swirl of fine interlocking carvings, was a single word, scratched in so roughly that it stood out like a wound. It was completely different from the rest, jagged, hasty, almost angry, as if it had been carved in a fit of madness. It didn't even look like a real word, just a string of letters that happened to spell something pronounceable. Z O Z O Zozo, Joe said. He didn't like it. Jamie had been quiet the whole time. They all had really. She just nodded and looked at Darren. For his part, Darren was intrigued. He wanted to study the board more. He even wanted so he thought then, to use it. But he would soon regret that affection. Jamie's parents had left for the night and wouldn't return until early the next morning. Darren waited until he knew his grandmother was asleep and then snuck out. Jamie let him in through the back door, but they weren't inside for long. Darren only entered to help her carry some drinks and snacks out to the porch overlooking the river. There they sat for a long while, just talking. Later they went back inside and Jamie put on some records. But she could tell that Darren was distracted. He couldn't stop thinking about the spirit board, about Zozo and what it might mean. She asked what was wrong. He responded with a question. Do you know where your dad put that board? The plumber found she did. It was in her parents bedroom. Darren snuck in and carefully took the board down from the top row of the bookshelf, making sure not to disturb anything else. He brought it downstairs and placed it almost reverently on the kitchen table. Jamie looked nervous. Darren couldn't tell, but she couldn't hide her excitement either. She smiled a mischievous grin. They turned off all the lights in the house except for the one above the sink, which gave off an especially warm amber glow. They closed all the curtains. The table, a stained oak, didn't look at all different from the board itself, at least how the board must have looked when it was new. Darren took the planchette and set it on the board. He placed his fingertips on one side and Jamie mirrored his position on the other hand. Suddenly, very suddenly, they both thought the little device began to move. Its motion was jerky and erratic. Both of them insisted they weren't the ones doing it. At that moment, some of the interest in Jamie's face gave way to unease. After just a few seconds of frantic motion, the planchette threw itself off the board and clattered against the tabletop it immediately stopped moving. Let's try again, darren said. The movement started again, but this time it was smoother, more deliberate, as if whatever was guiding it had learned how to control its strength. The planchette began circling in a steady figure eight motion. Finally it stopped dead on a single letter. L. Then E. Then O. N, A, R, D. Leonard. Both Jaime and Darren let go and stood quickly from the table. They thought of Joe, of all the times he'd mentioned a friendly poltergeist at family dinners, the ghost that pulled harmless little pranks. Closed doors behind him, moved his comb, switched his toothbrush. He always called it Leonard. He never said why. Darren and Jamie stared at each other, Darren smiling, Jamie with the same unsettled look, seemed like the board had worked. They sat down again, touching the planchette once more. Then came the bangs. Two of them. Deafening bangs at the front door. Darren looked at Jamie now. He was frightened too. He stood and walked slowly through the kitchen, across the family room, and over to the door. Who's there? He called. There was only silence. I mean it. Who is it? Still nothing. With his heart pounding, Darren flung the door open and stepped out into the front porch. But the there was nothing. Just the still night held together by the whispering river in the backyard. He could hear crickets in the grass. He turned and saw Jamie, pale and shaking. She was genuinely scared now. Seeing her like that, Darren's excitement melted into sympathy. He sat her down on the couch and held her, whispering comforts. It was probably just a prank, or the house settling. I think I heard a gust of wind, you know. But later that night, another friend named Randy showed up. They told him about the episode. He said that he wanted to try it for himself. Jamie excused herself and went upstairs to bed while the two boys sat down at the now ominous table with the spirit board they placed their fingers on. The planchette began to move. Randy laughed at the novelty of it all, but Darren didn't laugh. The planchette spelled a mate. Even Darren cracked a smile. What a strange thing for a spirit to say. A mate. But then the device moved again, this time slower, more deliberate. See you in hell. Over the weeks that followed, Darren continued to use the Zozo board with various friends. The fear of that first night faded, replaced by curiosity, then obsession. He began to make his own spirit boards to communicate with the thing on his own terms. He knew it wasn't good for him. He knew he shouldn't be doing it, but he didn't care enough to stop. The cost had not yet come Due now. Eventually, Darren and Jamie got married. But the marriage was tainted from the start by Darren's growing focus on the board and his attachment to it. He began calling the entity Zozo, after the name carved on the board's underside. Over time he became bolder and bolder. He asked Zozo to reveal himself. He wanted answers about his future, about the nature of the world. He wanted power. In one session one Jamie was present for Darren, half jokingly asked Zozo if it could control the little Yorkshire terrier that belonged to Jamie's mother. They were at her parents house at the time. Everyone laughed at the absurdity of the request. But the laughter didn't last for long. Scratching at the door was heard from the other room. Jamie got up and went over and opened it. And there was Sadie, the tiny dog, but shaking and whimpering like she was scared. She darted into the room and sat down next to Darren, eyes flicking from him to the board and back again. The dog was distressed, maybe even terrified. Darren and Jamie put their hands back on the planchette. Darren asked Zozo to send Sadie back to the other room. The dog obeyed immediately. She ran off down the hall, but barking frantically and scratching at the walls in the adjacent room. Darren whispered so quietly she couldn't have heard, whispered for her to return. She did, this time yelping and growling and wild eyed. Darren could see desperation in the dog's face. She looked up at him as though she were a suppliant in the presence of some fearful God. Then she vomited on the floor, floor, everything in her stomach, over and over. Darren and Jamie grabbed a broom and ushered her out of the front door where she sprinted into the woods. From the trees came more barking and gagging and retching noises. Jamie was horrified, but Darren was fascinated. And so his doom began. The marriage began to decay. Darren kept using spirit boards. Jamie grew more and more disturbed by them. Darren became consumed by Zozo. When would they commune again? What would the demon be able to perform next? He told Jaime that Zozo had started calling him the Chosen One. That it was his guardian. That it promised him power. Unimaginable power, even power to control others and to rule. Eventually the original Zozo board disappeared, lost, likely at Jamie's father's insistence. But it didn't matter. Darren's homemade boards worked just as well. He and Zozo kept talking as often as Darren could manage. The divorce was finalized in 1992. Darren then hit the road, picking up odd jobs anywhere he could his only companion was Zozo. He grew depressed, paranoid, anxious to a crippling degree. He woke up in emergency rooms more than once having blacked out from panic attacks. Doctors said that he was hyperventilating. But Darren never remembered breathing so hard or so fast. That's when the hallucination started. He'd be speaking with someone in daylight and then suddenly watch their face melt away, the flesh dripping from the bone, revealing a skull soaked in blood. He saw it every day until it broke him. Eventually, he returned to his childhood home and collapsed in tears on the doorstep. His grandmother found him. She looked into his eyes and she was afraid. She said that he wasn't himself or wasn't alone in himself anymore. He slept in her guest room while she tried to pray him clean. She later said that as she prayed, shadows flew around the room. Shadows filled with maniacal laughter. And still the years dragged on. Whenever Darren tried to escape Zozo, the temptation would roar back. Zozo began to speak openly of its intentions. It claimed that it was going to steal Darren's soul. It said it would drag his family to hell. It named them one by one. By 1999, Darren had a new girlfriend. One afternoon, while she was taking a bath, Darren sat quietly in the living room, trying to stay calm. Then he heard screams. Frantic and terrible screams. He ran and burst through the bathroom door where he found her submerged, arms thrashing. He pulled her out before she drowned. Then he turned and he saw it. Z o. Z o. Zozo. Written in the condensation on the bathroom mirror. Darren, at last, driven by pure regret, took what he believed were drastic measures. He burned sage. Nothing. He destroyed every Ouija board. Nothing. He reached out to priests, paranormal investigators, parapsychologists. Nothing helped. For another decade, Darren lived in constant fear of the demon he had once so naively entertained. And then finally it stopped. Whether it was distance from the boards, the grace of God or some other providence. One day, Darren Evans woke up to find himself free of Zozo. He wrote down a story and shared it online. To his horror and the horror of countless others he discovered that he wasn't alone. Hundreds of people had encountered Zozo. Hundreds had suffered like he had. Zozo, it seemed, was not a local demon. It was everywhere. One last thing. Remember Randy, the guy who came over on that first night after Jamie went to bed? Remember what Zozo spelled on the board? See you in hell. About 20 years later, Darren and Randy sat at the spirit board again. This time in Oklahoma City. At Randy's house. The first message was the same. See you in hell. Randy laughed, but Darren didn't. Then came the name Zozo. And finally the longest message yet. Car wreck at night, Alone A year later to the day, Darren was auditioning for a band. But his phone kept ringing. Missed calls, missed texts. He could see that they were all from Randy, but he couldn't answer in the middle of the audition. So afterward, driving home, he finally had the time to listen to one of the voicemails. Randy's voice was there on the line, shaking and crying. I love you, he said. Goodbye. Darren called back immediately. Randy picked up, but he didn't speak. Finally, a voice came through, but it wasn't Randy's voice. Darren, it said, I will see you in hell. The line clicked dead. He tried to call back, but it just went straight to voicemail. The next morning, Darren got a call at work. Darren, Randy's girlfriend, sobbed through the phone. Randy's gone. He's dead. Darren. The night before, after hanging up, Randy had gunned down a fifth of vodka and driven his girlfriend's SUV into a telephone pole at full speed. A deserted road in the Midwest. Alone at night. Just like Zozo said he would. Escape Master is a fast paced fantasy card game that your family game night needs. Think of Speed or Dutch Blitz mixed with deep fantasy lore, battle strategies and character building. Made by a Christian husband, husband and wife duo with the goal to bring your family together. It's portable for on the go. Play family friendly and wildly fun. Order now at zillycreativeworks.com and get 10 off with code Z Cosmos. All lowercase. That's zillycreativeworks.com with code Z Cosmos. The nighttime is crawling with dangerous creatures. Bigfoot, sleep paralysis demons, the Mothman. Now imagine what would make them even more terrifying. That's right.
- [24:34]
Ben
Guns.
- [24:35]
Brian
Cryptids with guns. That's where Armored Republic comes in. They equip law abiding citizens to stand against the unthinkable. Even if it's a gun wielding devil worshipping Bigfoot. From combat tested coatings to high performance carriers, every piece of their ballistic armor and tactical gear is built to protect. Visit armoredrepublic.com or text join all caps J O I N to 88027 to get involved in the preparedness effort.
- [25:06]
Ben
Brian I got bad news the other day. I was using one of the big box soap products to wash myself and I got this weird urge to go buy a Stanley cup and fill it with iced coffee and it started to feel a little cold in the house I just wanted to wrap myself up in, like, a heavy wool blanket. And then also I started googling ticket prices to Taylor Swift concerts.
- [25:28]
Brian
Ben, what are you doing? Don't you know that these big box soap companies just jam all their soaps full of hormone disrupting chemicals? They're probably turning you into a girl.
- [25:36]
Ben
Well, I know that now, but what am I supposed to do about it?
- [25:39]
Brian
Ben, you ignorant Normie. All you've needed to do is go to indigosundrysoap.com and support a great Christian family business that's making all sorts of soaps that are completely free of hormone disrupting chemicals and other nasties.
- [25:53]
Ben
Okay, I am literally going to indigosundrysoap.com right now. Tell me what to buy then.
- [25:58]
Brian
What I would recommend doing is clicking on bundles and then selecting the best one for you. You could get the men's six pack. You could get my favorite, the clay bundle.
- [26:06]
Ben
Ooh, I like the pipe and jug bundle. That seems cool. Or a men's six pack, because that'll make me feel like I have something that I actually don't.
- [26:13]
Brian
So true King. And you know what else I heard? Because they're such good friends of the show, Indigo Sundry Soap Company is offering 10% off your order if you just use all caps, discount code Haunted Cosmos, no spaces.
- [26:26]
Ben
Wait, Brian, you're going way too fast. I didn't get all that. Is that information in the show description?
- [26:31]
Brian
Ben, you ignorant Normie. It's always in the show description.
- [26:34]
Ben
Okay, so I'm gonna go to indigosundrysoap.com I'm gonna pick the men's six pack bundle, and I'm gonna use code Haunted Cosmos at checkout, all caps, no spaces. And if I forgot all that, it's in the description of the show.
- [26:47]
Brian
Of course, Ben. And if you just do that, then you will stop wanting to do all of those girly things and maybe you'll, I don't know, maybe wanna buy a classic car to restore or something. Dignified man. Ben. I knew we were handsome, but I didn't know we were that handsome until I saw our recent Haunted Cosmos thumbnails.
- [27:06]
Ben
Yeah. Your skin looks so velvety smooth.
- [27:09]
Brian
I mean, it's unbelievable. Chris at New Dominion Design Company did an absolutely fantastic job, not only on those thumbnails, but on our recent book cover as well.
- [27:17]
Ben
Yeah, exactly. And if you need some design work from Chris, you should go to New new dominion design code.com. get started there. And he'll serve you right, man.
- [27:26]
Brian
He will make you look 50% as handsome as Ben, guaranteed.
- [27:33]
Ben
Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Haunted Cosmos. I'm sorry. I'm already laughing. Brian was just saying something really funny. No, me. Who would have thunk, you know?
- [27:42]
Brian
Look, guys, I need you to hit that, like button. Hit that subscribe button. Hit that notification bell. The way that Ben hits his driver at the beginning of every golf hole, which is poorly, but he does make contact.
- [27:54]
Ben
I want you guys to know this is a psa, actually.
- [27:57]
Brian
Yes.
- [27:58]
Ben
Very important announcement for every person that likes and subscribes to this channel. With this episode, Brian's mother will lose a full pound of weight.
- [28:07]
Brian
Yep.
- [28:07]
Ben
That's crazy. That's a promise, though. That's a guarantee. You can go to hanacosmos.com and see proof. All right, we're doing a live feed of the scale. No, we're not. Welcome to this episode. We're gonna be talking about Ouija boards, fortune telling, Tarot car, all of. Just these demonic practices that occultists are into telling some stories that show. And I hope that you get this out of this episode. It is not just a waste of time to do these things. It actually does tap in at times to dark powers that will entirely corrupt you and ruin your life. Good morning.
- [28:43]
Brian
I want you to do to the like and subscribe button what you should never do to a Ouija board. I want you to interact with it.
- [28:49]
Ben
I want you to do to the like and subscribe button what zozo just did to Darren Evans, which is take full possession of it.
- [28:56]
Brian
Okay.
- [28:56]
Ben
All right. All right, now. No, it's true, actually, I have some. Some additional details to add to that.
- [29:02]
Brian
Darren, about zozo.
- [29:03]
Ben
Do we need to announce it? Do you have any, like, let's.
- [29:05]
Brian
Look, here's the thing. Support the show. Do all the stuff. Zozo, sign up. You can stream the whole season on demand. Look, if you like, this, what we do here, it can't be done for. This can't be achieved for free. Okay? It can't be.
- [29:20]
Ben
I mean, I guess. I guess it could.
- [29:22]
Brian
Theoretically, could. Well, I mean, like, Martina McBride would be out of a job.
- [29:26]
Ben
That's true.
- [29:27]
Brian
Do you want to be responsible for Martina McBride being homeless and driven to the spirit board?
- [29:32]
Ben
So. And Amy Lee would take a hit, too.
- [29:35]
Brian
That's true.
- [29:35]
Ben
Evanescence.
- [29:36]
Brian
Evanescence. Okay.
- [29:38]
Ben
All right.
- [29:38]
Brian
With that out of the way, give us more, zozo. I. Dude. Well, don't actually.
- [29:42]
Ben
This is a crazy story.
- [29:43]
Brian
Yeah, okay.
- [29:44]
Ben
Yeah, don't actually. All right, so first, you remember how it said in the cold open that the they Found the board around like some jars and papers in the crawl space.
- [29:52]
Brian
Yeah.
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Ben
Okay. So they went back later. Darren of course, went back later because he was obsessed and he found he like dug the jars out and they were filled with like, like animals that had been stored in formaldehyde.
- [30:06]
Brian
Okay.
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Ben
And then the papers were covered in like pentagrams and stuff.
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Brian
Okay.
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Ben
Isn't that so messed up?
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Brian
Like, so there's earlier lore to this.
- [30:15]
Ben
Oh yeah.
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Brian
He's like just one in a chain.
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Ben
Of victims, but no one knows what came before it. Dang. Everyone knows that Zozo though has been busy for a while. The other thing, and this actually feeds into that. The other thing that I found out is that when Devin went public with his story, when he wrote this book and it was going. Being spread online, he was getting emails from people daily. Like dozens of emails a day about people that had also encountered Zozo.
- [30:41]
Brian
Like by the same name.
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Ben
Yes. They were like this demon revealed itself to me on a Ouija board. Its name was Zozo and it like totally ruined my life.
- [30:48]
Brian
Oh my word.
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Ben
Isn't that crazy?
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Brian
And this was pre Internet. A lot of the experiences. Yeah, they were through the 80s and 90s.
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Ben
Yeah. Yeah. Now the, the Internet was. Was a big deal once he actually published interactions. Yeah, his. His first experiences was pre Internet. And so there's all these theories going around about who Zozo could be. And one theory was the Canaanites had like a. A like a wind God that was named like Pazuzu or Pazazu or something like that.
- [31:18]
Brian
Pazuki. That's a dessert. Nevermind.
- [31:21]
Ben
Ozempic. And so anyway, be careful out there. Yeah, a lot of people were.
- [31:26]
Brian
Ben's mom really needs to be careful.
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Ben
A lot of people were thinking that Zozo could be kind of a re. I don't know, like a reforming, I guess, or just a new manifestation of this very ancient primordial God Pazazu.
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Brian
Because we have this.
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Ben
He had a lot of pizzazz.
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Brian
Well, that's for sure.
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Ben
Like in a bad way.
- [31:49]
Brian
Like in a bad way. Bad pizzazz. Bad Zaz.
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Ben
He had that Bad Riz. What is like the.
- [31:53]
Brian
What's Bad Riz? Dark Riz.
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Ben
Amy Lee. What is like bad Riz called.
- [31:58]
Brian
You're the youngest person this year.
- [32:00]
Ben
Like anti Riz. He's still Riz. It's just like in a bad way.
- [32:06]
Brian
He's got that l. Riz. L. Riz. He doesn't have that s t. He's got that lath.
- [32:10]
Ben
Riz.
- [32:11]
Brian
He's got that Lath spell, I named thee. Ill news is an ill guest.
- [32:16]
Ben
Late is the hour.
- [32:18]
Brian
Okay. This is why the. This is why you log in. This is why you watch this show. It's because you know you're going to get two things.
- [32:26]
Ben
The cold opens. Walk so that the banter can run. You know, I think right here. Handshake right there. Y.
- [32:32]
Brian
Okay, here's what I was going to say in all seriousness. So we have this. What do we know about unclean spirits, about fallen angelic beings? What? There's. There's several categories of them. One category of them would be those that were put in gloomy chains of darkness, that were put into the pit by the Lord God before their time, before the final judgment. This has already happened in history.
- [32:55]
Ben
So that they can wait for the final judgment.
- [32:57]
Brian
They're chained, awaiting the final judgment.
- [32:59]
Ben
You see this in Jude and Second Peter.
- [33:01]
Brian
Yeah. But we also have unclean spirits, demonic beings that are roaming the earth like waterless places, looking for basically open doors where they can come in and they can assault the image of God and attempt to overthrow the providence and plans of God.
- [33:18]
Ben
Right.
- [33:19]
Brian
So it shouldn't surprise us because these are spiritual beings. They are immortal. They're not eternal. They didn't always exist.
- [33:26]
Ben
They're created, but like us.
- [33:28]
Brian
But they're immortal.
- [33:29]
Ben
Yeah.
- [33:29]
Brian
So they'll continue into eternity. Future. And one thing that we shouldn't be surprised then is that we see similar motifs. Maybe even the same beings show up several times in history or under different guises.
- [33:44]
Ben
Yeah.
- [33:45]
Brian
So it's actually not. The idea isn't crazy to me that people right now could pick up tarot cards or Ouija boards or whatever. And it's not that these objects themselves are magical. It's that people are dumb.
- [34:00]
Ben
Yes.
- [34:00]
Brian
And that they're like. His homemade spirit board works just as good as the one he found under the house. Right. And they're opening the door and inviting the unclean spirit to make its abode in them and with them and to torment them.
- [34:14]
Ben
Yeah. Once again, you have that theme of invitation. We saw this a lot with the Mothman story, where it seemed like the Mothman could not. It was like one woman's house or something. He couldn't go in unless he was let in. You see that with vampires as well.
- [34:29]
Brian
Vampiricism, Black Eyed Kids. It's all about, please give me permission.
- [34:33]
Ben
Yeah. And so it's not the. It's not necessarily the medium that, like, does the work. Like the. The Ouija board doesn't work like ex. Opera. Operato it's the.
- [34:43]
Brian
Which means by the work working.
- [34:44]
Ben
Yes, by the work working, like in itself. Or it may be ex machina mechano, by the machine machining. But it would be. It would be the. The conviction of the person who's using it and the desire that they have to commune with these evil spirits. And it. You know, what I was thinking is it's almost kind of like the Egregore thing. If you remember back from season one, actually, we did an episode on Egregores and the Watchers, and an Egregore was this. It was this Greek idea, and then it was a Judaic idea as well, that if enough people believed in an entity existing, then the entity would exist. Yeah, you see this with golems and tulpas as well in Eastern religions.
- [35:27]
Brian
Many versions of this idea.
- [35:28]
Ben
Many versions of this idea. Now, I don't think that that's like you can't create some evil thing because evil isn't actually a substance. It's a corruption of something. But it would make sense. If you take that kind of. That line of thinking and you get a widespread use of an otherwise just inanimate tool for the sole purpose of summoning that which is wicked, then it would make sense that the evil spirits are like, well, I'll use that. They're inviting it.
- [35:58]
Brian
What we're not saying is what the people believe is happening, which is that there are variations, but one of them is often that human psychical power that humans have this spiritual psychical power, that when enough of them get together and agree on something, they can manifest a thing that genuinely didn't exist to now exist. The Highgate Vampire is an example of this. There's lots of these where there's genuinely no phenomenon. And the Highgate Vampire is a story where there's this haunting of a graveyard. The Highgate Graveyard, I think is what it was called.
- [36:29]
Ben
That would make sense.
- [36:31]
Brian
Yeah, Right. So people then began to believe in it and have all these encounters. And there was this whole backstory about where there was this body that was buried and it was a vampire. And this turns out none of it was true, but people kept having the encounters that seemed plausible. And so the theory was people had manifested this being that didn't exist and now did. And what we're saying is that that's not what's happening. People don't have this power to manifest ex nihilo a spiritual creature that didn't exist, or even to assemble existing spiritual energy into a new being. What we're saying though, is that demons know. We believe that.
- [37:12]
Ben
Yeah.
- [37:13]
Brian
And so when you have a lot of people who are obsessing over something, they. They will put the face that they believe you want to see onto reality to deceive you.
- [37:24]
Ben
Astonishing Legends talks about this a lot, where they. And even they recognize it. Which I think is interesting how there seems to be a level of control over how the spirit is perceived. Like where even you could be in a group of people and you experience a haunting, and people in the same group that were there at the same time see something different. They all experience something, but they experience something different. Now, there's also the category of, like, mass delusion that does happen, but I don't think that that's the answer every single time. Right. I think that there is such a thing to actual dark energy that is deceiving a group of people. There was. Man, there was something else I was going to say, too, that was like, oh, so with this ZOZO character, you can start to get into, like, categories of, you know, evil spiritual being. You know, in the New Testament, we see a lot of Christ calling out the unclean spirits, right? Now, my conviction is that that's the disembodied spirit of the nephilim. But we don't have to get into that. The reason we don't have to get into that is because it actually could be something else. Paul writing in the New Testament era, the church has been formed by Christ at the Great Commission, and he is encouraging people in 1 Corinthians 16 to put on the spiritual armor of God. Why? Because we wrestle with powers and principalities. Now, powers and principalities is an angelic rank. And so presumably some of those angelic ranks fell, and now Christians are actually doing war with those things by living out the Christian life and partaking of the means of grace. What that means is that even here in this age of the Church, though the nations are no longer deceived, and though the strong man, the devil, has been bound by Christ, you still have encounters with dark spirits, and they have to be reckoned with. And so I think that this ZOZO phenomenon is actually. It's very possible that a large portion of the stories that you hear, both from Darren Evans and from others that then followed up after he published his stuff, are totally true.
- [39:35]
Brian
They actually happen.
- [39:36]
Ben
Maybe there's some embellishment. Of course there's deception going on, but at the root of it, the seed is actually something that does happen where this single or multiple spiritual entities are latching onto this Zozo Persona, and they're leading people down a road of destruction.
- [39:53]
Brian
You said something earlier, towards the beginning of the show that we say a lot, but it's important to note here that God doesn't forbid these things just because they're nothing.
- [40:03]
Ben
Yeah.
- [40:04]
Brian
He doesn't forbid them just because it really would. Even if there was no corresponding dark spiritual power at work, it really would be wrong for a human being to want there to be and to want to commune with them. So even if they didn't exist, it would still be wrong. It would be violation of the first, second commandment, multiple of the Ten Commandments. We'd be violating by desiring that. But the point is that there's one element of the wrong there, but there's another, and it's that these things are real. Yeah, there really are unclean spirits that really do hate you and hate God.
- [40:37]
Ben
And they will destroy you, and they will destroy you.
- [40:39]
Brian
And here's the thing, they will lure you in with all sorts of bait, mystery, interest to get you to make that first step of invitation where you don't know that when you say yes to that first step of invitation, you're saying yes. Darren was saying yes to the hell that followed for another couple decades. Sin is like that. It says, hey, just take this one step. Just, you know, give what, send that one text message to that woman who's not your wife. Just take that first step. And you don't realize that when you say yes to that first step of sin, you're saying yes to everything that follows.
- [41:17]
Ben
Right.
- [41:17]
Brian
Demons are like that, too. And they've been honing their craft for millennia.
- [41:21]
Ben
And it gets harder and harder to say no.
- [41:23]
Brian
Like, there's a they've got you.
- [41:25]
Ben
You know, we talk about how there's sort of like an unofficial social credit system that just always exists with groups of people where if you're in a church and a brother is caught in a sin, you know, you should go and confront that sin. It's much easier to do that, though, when you've built up a level of credit, which is to just say, like, trust and respect that's mutually agreed upon to where you can go to that brother and say, hey, I noticed that you're doing this. I'd encourage you to repent and ask forgiveness. If that person, hearing that knows that you know them, then they're going to be much more willing to listen in the same way. This is sort of like the inverse negative version of that. When you start saying yes to small temptations to sin and they seem very small. Take the second look at that woman. That's not your wife. You know, the text or whatever. Lie this one time, take that extra money off the top because you need it this month. You'll never do it again. You know, you say yes to those things, you're actually building up a sort of like deposit or almost a bank account of weakness to say no in the future. And so not only do you say, do you give a consent to the sins that come from that, but you're also. It's getting way harder for you to build up the strength to resist the temptation to say yes when you actually are faced with that future sin. Yeah. And this is the same way. I mean, you see the pipeline from. I mean, you see it everywhere. But the pipeline from, like, yeah, I'm interested in the super or the paranormal. I'm gonna go on this, like, little walk through the tombstones at night. And yeah, if I saw a ghost, like, that'd be kind of cool. The pipeline from that to being obsessed with paranormal encounters and using Ouija boards is a well trod path. Yeah. That can't really be denied. No. And so these things are things that we have to be very careful about. And as Christians, we should be calling out the darkness that is very much present in the Ouija board. Tarot card stuff.
- [43:28]
Brian
So let's. Before we go into the next story, just because we didn't actually explain this, most people probably understand this, but a.
- [43:34]
Ben
Ouija board, what is a Ouija board?
- [43:36]
Brian
A spirit board is a board that's designed to communicate with spirits, obviously.
- [43:42]
Ben
Spirit board.
- [43:43]
Brian
And it's right there in the name. And it has different methods, but typically with a Ouija board, what. What you find is that there's either like a yes and a no slot numbers and then letters. And the planchet is like a pointer that has like a little point or it has a circle that's open in the middle. And the idea is that one person by himself or herself or a group of people put their hands on it and the spirit will control it and answer questions and move it to spell out the answer or the number or the yes, no, whatever it is. And of course, skeptics will say, well, you're just all controlling it. And maybe there's a subconscious phenomena where you don't even realize you're controlling it and you're answering the question that you yourself ask. And I think there's plenty of that.
- [44:25]
Ben
Oh, yeah.
- [44:26]
Brian
When people encounter these sorts of things. But there really is also dark spirits.
- [44:32]
Ben
Yeah. And I mean, absolutely use these things. I think that the. I think that the cold, open story speaks for itself in that regard. I also think that actually the hot close of this episode is another really good example of, like, not all the time is it just people playing this silly little game.
- [44:49]
Brian
So another type of spiritualist, necromantic kind of object, cursed object, where people try to communicate with the spirits and fortune tell are tarot cards.
- [45:01]
Ben
Yeah.
- [45:01]
Brian
And so, Ben, why don't you take us into the next story?
- [45:16]
Ben
Just before the 14th century, a new way to pass the time began sweeping across Europe. From the northern parts of Italy came a flood of playing cards, court cards and suits, even reproductions of old Egyptian decks, reviving an ancient pastime for a new age. But alongside the spread of playing cards came something else. Civil legislation banning their use. Why is this? Why would a government ban something so seemingly innocuous as a convenient game to play with your family after dinner? The first known playing cards in the world came from the mystic dynastic age of ancient China. As early as the eight hundreds, children of noble families in the Tang dynasty played simple card games for amusement. Within a hundred years, the nobility at large was gripped by card based games that increasingly involved drinking. The game was simple. Each player drew from a shuffled deck and followed whatever instruction was printed on the card. At first, these instructions were harmless. Sing a song, dance a silly dance. But before long, people reached the conclusion that drinking was the most fun. And so the drinking props became the most popular in the deck. As the cards became associated with absurdity and inebriation, they lost their aristocratic dignity. The upper classes abandoned them, and the common folk picked them up. Predictably, with the nobility adopting a rules for thee but not for me posture. Civil governments cracked down. Public drunkenness had become a problem. Gambling followed close behind. People bet their goods and lost them all on the cards. Poverty among the lower classes increased, increased, and the cards took the blame. Eventually, the same pattern played out in Europe. The card games grew more popular. The public indecencies became more frequent. Playing guards for a time, therefore, became a kind of cultural taboo. But as with all taboos, the ban only made them more attractive, especially to those already lingering on society's fringe mediums. And fortune tellers began using cards as a tool for divination. Witches and magicians claimed that the seemingly random order of suits and colors carried messages from the universemessages meant for the person drawing them. Over time, mystics began designing their own specialized decks. The artwork on these magical cards was different, symbolic, richly layered, laced with meaning it allowed them to give more exact readings based on which cards appeared and in which order. No one knows exactly when the first true tarot deck was was created, though early versions date back to the 1400s. Tarot didn't become widespread, however, until the 1700s. The advent of the printing press only hastened its spread. The lore masters who created the early tarot decks claimed to trace their esoteric roots to ancient Egypt and kabbalistic Judaism. This may be true in part, though it's unlikely that cards existed in those traditions in the form we now know them. As tarot reading became more popular, it also became more serious. People began to see themselves in the cards. The fool, the priest, the emperor. They genuinely believed the cards were messages from powers beyond the visible world, messages telling them who they were, what they were meant to do, and what fate awaited them. The Death card held a unique authority. It always has. Man, after all, is afraid of the dark, as we've said, and death is the greatest darkness we know. The Death card promised light in that shadow, a glimpse into the beyond. Even when the message brought sorrow, people still wanted to know. They drew and drew until death, or something like it, finally came from the deck. And Comet did. In 2016, a middle aged man walked into a fortune teller show somewhere in Ireland. His name was Star Randall Hanson. The clairvoyant, Jane Braden, welcomed him warmly and invited him to sit across from her at a small round table. Star obliged, though Jane could immediately tell he wasn't at ease. He shook slightly, as if cold, and his eyes darted around the room every few seconds. Jane didn't comment. Perhaps it was his first reading. She kept her voice calm and soothing as the curtains were drawn in, the room dimmed. The table was covered in a blue linen cloth. Incense curled into the air from the nearby shelf and a few candles provided the only light. Jane sat across from Star and softly placed the Tarot deck on the table. She said nothing more. Most of her clients preferred that she just get on with it. She drew the first card, the Falling Tower. Jane told Star that he had recently recently experienced a devastating conflict with someone close to him. He bit his nails and rocked slightly in his chair. He glanced at the card, then at her, and nodded. She drew three more cards. The last of them was the Emperor. You've played the Emperor recently, she told him. The Dominator again. He nodded quickly. Even in the dim light, Jane could see beads of sweat forming on his brow. Then she drew six more cards. The penultimate cards card was Death. The final card, the Devil. Something terrible happened she said, a downfall. And you caused it. That's when the man broke. He collapsed into sobs, hands cradling his face, his body convulsing with grief. The chair creaked beneath him as he shook. Finally he looked up and his voice cracked as he said, it's terrible. I killed him. The words emptied the room of all tension. Star, now seemingly unburdened, relaxed into his chair. His shaking stopped. His voice steadied. Jane, suddenly alert to just how much larger he was than she noted that he was also now between her and the door. She fought back a wave of nausea and tried to keep him talking, but also felt the weight of what he had just said. I have to call the police, she told him quietly. That's okay, starr said. Jane called and informed the operator of everything she heard and the strange, surreal setting in which she had heard it. The operator thought it was a hoax. He transferred Jane to the non emergency line of the police force. For the next hour, Jane sat across from the confessed killer and tried to keep him talking. He told her more and more about the ordeal. His victim's name was Derek, a man he had met at a local spiritualist church. They hit it off quickly, and when Derek mentioned needing a flatmate, Starr jumped at the opportunity. Within a week he was moved in. For a month. Everything was fine. The two didn't see each other much during the day due to their jobs, but their evenings were pleasant enough. They got along well. And then something happened, something Starr refused to fully explain. He said that one day while he was in the kitchen, Derek came in through the the front door unexpectedly and startled him. Starr's fight or flight instincts took over and in a blur he claimed he mistook Derek for an intruder. It was instinctual, he said, an accident. He grabbed a knife and stabbed Derek multiple times. Within seconds, Derek was on the floor, gasping his final breaths. Starr panicked. He hid the body and tried to go on living as if nothing had happened. But of course he couldn't. He didn't have the stomach for that. When the police finally arrived at Jane's shop, Starr surrendered peacefully. He led them to the flat where Derek's body was hidden. He pled guilty in court and was sentenced to life in prison. And what became of Jane? She says the experience only strengthened her belief in the cards and in the powers that work through her. She even claims that every now and then Derek's spirit contacts her to thank her her for helping him find rest.
- [53:05]
Brian
Hey Ben, I just read that our great grandparents probably experimented with butter on their dry skin as A moisturizer? Is that why you look so radiant?
- [53:14]
Ben
Maybe it's Grandma's Butter recipe. Or. Or maybe it's Great Toad Tallow.
- [53:19]
Brian
Their tallow products are 100% organic and naturally contain the good stuff your skin craves. No mystery there.
- [53:26]
Ben
So say sayonara Sammy to kitchen experiments. And say hello to healthier Skin Gray Totalo. Trusted by Skin Envied by Great Grandma's Butter Recipe.
- [53:39]
Brian
For more information and to get a sample pack, check out grey toast tallow dot com. Don't forget to use the code COSMOS15. That's all caps. Cosmos 15 for 15 off your order.
- [54:00]
Ben
Man, what is that?
- [54:01]
Brian
Did you hear that? Is that a ghost?
- [54:03]
Ben
It's just me moaning through the pain of a terrible night of sleep and a hurt back.
- [54:09]
Brian
Honestly, you probably just have a magnesium deficiency, which, like the fae, is a very real thing.
- [54:15]
Ben
Well how. Well, how do I get more magnesium? Do I start leaving offerings out to it or something?
- [54:20]
Brian
No, you just use Humble Love's Magnesium Cream. It's got no weird chemicals or demonic ingredients. It's made by a husband and wife team. Totally clean, totally safe, even for kids.
- [54:33]
Ben
Well, at least that doesn't sound scary.
- [54:35]
Brian
It's not. Visit thehumblelifestore.com that's the humblelifestore.com and use code NCP15 for 15% off your first jar link in the description. Hey guys, this is Ray from the band out of the Graves. It's a sad fact that most of the music that I listen to seems to fall under two categories. One, it's easy. Made by dudes who used to claim Christ 10 years ago and no longer do. Or it's made by a bunch of dudes who never claimed Christ at all. Here at New Christendom Press, we say that Christians should make the best art and out of the graves is part of that mission. There's a reason we call it post mill rock and roll. So if you're looking for music to wage war on pagan art, check out out of the Graves anywhere you listen.
- [55:33]
Ben
How many demons, ghosts or vampires are lurking in your investment portfolio? If you're invested in the S&P 500, it's probably more than you think since it's full of companies that actively oppose your faith. Stonecrop Wealth Advisors is here to help. Their faith based portfolios redirect your hard earned dollars away from destructive agendas and into companies making a positive impact on on society. Get the demons out of your portfolio and invest in God's kingdom while you grow your wealth. Contact Stonecrop Wealth Advisors today by visiting StoneCropAdvisors.com Haunted Cosmos investment advisory services offered through StoneCrop Wealth Advisors, LLC, a registered investment advisor with the U.S. securities and Exchange Commission.
- [56:12]
Brian
So I think the moral of this story is that your Baptist grandpa was right when he said no playing cards, no dancing, no liquor. Yeah, 100%.
- [56:22]
Ben
Sorry, I was just yawning.
- [56:23]
Brian
Dude, am I boring you right now?
- [56:25]
Ben
Yeah, a little. Cause that joke is so played out.
- [56:30]
Brian
Okay.
- [56:31]
Ben
Your Baptist grandpa was right.
- [56:32]
Brian
You know what?
- [56:33]
Ben
He actually was, though. Here's the thing. It's played out. Cause it's true. Now I enjoy a game of playing cards as much as the next guy. Yeah.
- [56:41]
Brian
Just commonly demons with him.
- [56:43]
Ben
Here's my question for you. Sometimes I play Go fish. Am I going to hell? Yes or no?
- [56:48]
Brian
I need more information.
- [56:50]
Ben
When I play Go fish, sometimes I admittedly get a little bit impatient when.
- [56:56]
Brian
Someone says, do you have any sevens? And you have a seven, do you give it to them?
- [57:01]
Ben
Yeah.
- [57:01]
Brian
Okay. Then straight to heaven. I play like, I literally. I literally just committed heresy. Yeah, well, no, no, hang on.
- [57:09]
Ben
That was a joke.
- [57:09]
Brian
No, I was saying that because you've been regenerated by Christ, by grace and through faith, you would act. Honestly, you're assuming. Technically, you're assuming that I'm.
- [57:18]
Ben
You're assuming the regenerate status. Yeah.
- [57:20]
Brian
So let's. Let's talk about tarot cards here. Because what I'm hearing is that tarot card readers basically solve murders.
- [57:28]
Ben
Yeah, tarot card, more like barrow card, because they're solving murders so that the person gets buried in like a barrow.
- [57:40]
Brian
Like a barrow white.
- [57:41]
Ben
Like a barrow white.
- [57:42]
Brian
That was a little forced.
- [57:43]
Ben
Nah, no, that was everyone to follow. I think it's just another one of the examples of the object being.
- [57:50]
Brian
It's the same thing.
- [57:51]
Ben
It's not the medium. It's the message.
- [57:53]
Brian
It is just mediums with more steps, with extra steps.
- [57:58]
Ben
Now, the interesting thing is this story is funny to me because how often is a fortune teller gonna maybe. Maybe like, doctor up the deck to make. To make it so that interesting cards are drawn? And you can say the vague things like you've experienced some conflict recently, some major conflict.
- [58:23]
Brian
Who hasn't?
- [58:24]
Ben
You've been too dominating recently. Like, what man hasn't done something like.
- [58:28]
Brian
That in the last week, you know? Yeah, I was short with my kids.
- [58:31]
Ben
And then it's like the death card. And then you're like, oh, that reminds me, I did kill somebody.
- [58:35]
Brian
I have a story about this. I have a story about it. It's a tarot story. I might have to enter a new emergency story.
- [58:41]
Ben
Tarot? Yeah, More like.
- [58:42]
Brian
Okay, here we go. More like, let my people go, Pharaoh. Dang. That's where you were gonna go? The whole time I was waiting, I was like, the obvious rhyme with tarot is Pharaoh.
- [58:52]
Ben
No, that was so much better.
- [58:53]
Brian
Here, here's the story. I heard there was a. A woman who. She was a doctor. And I heard her telling this story on a different podcast. So she was. It was a firsthand account, not a creepypasta or something. She was Dr. Ever. She loved Halloween and single lady. So I mean, that tracks, like everything I just said, like, obsessed with Halloween, you know what I'm saying?
- [59:17]
Ben
So Little has a black cat.
- [59:20]
Brian
Might have been a witch or three. No. So she loves Halloween, but it wasn't like she wasn't in a coven. She didn't, like, wanna practice witchcraft or something. She just thought it was fun.
- [59:29]
Ben
Okay, good. I'm glad that. Cause I also like Halloween. I'm glad that. That you don't immediately assume that means that I'm a real necromancer.
- [59:37]
Brian
She put on a party for all the doctors and nurses and staff that worked in her office every year at her house.
- [59:43]
Ben
Did they just wear their work uniform to the laziest. I'll stop. I'm sorry.
- [59:48]
Brian
I've dressed up.
- [59:49]
Ben
I'm being obnoxious.
- [59:49]
Brian
Wow, Way to go. So she's kind of out, you know, got some property out the rural edge of the. Of the city they live in. And everyone comes over and she would, like, do the whole thing, like decorate. Huge amount of props and stuff, games. But one thing she would do every year is that she would put on. She would do tarot readings as like a. Oh, aren't we.
- [60:12]
Ben
Oh, it's Halloween.
- [60:13]
Brian
Doing tarot readings. And she had, like, studied all of the fraudster sort of cold reading methods. Cold reading is where you use cues from the person that they don't even know they're giving. When you're getting closer to something that's true or not, you know, to oversimplify it, like, if you say, you know, I'm seeing a figure, and they're like, you know, someone who recently died in your family, and they, you know that people who are really good at this can absolutely freak you out.
- [60:41]
Ben
It's like the mentalist guys.
- [60:42]
Brian
Exactly.
- [60:43]
Ben
Yeah. It is crazy.
- [60:45]
Brian
And it's wild how good they can get at this. So she was kind of amateur cold reader, tarot reader. And she would do it for fun and just try to give people fun readings, whatever. So she's, you know, the party's, like, been going on for a long time. She's been doing these readings. She's not gonna do very many more. But she knew that her friend really wanted her to do it. This one other doctor.
- [61:04]
Ben
Yeah.
- [61:05]
Brian
And so she's like, okay, I gotta make sure I fit her in. And she had known, though this background piece of information that her friend did not know that she knew. So she was planning ahead. Like, I'm gonna use this. Her friend had talked to another hospital and was thinking about taking a job there. And she really liked this lady and she was a great worker. So she didn't want her to move. So she was gonna, like, try to doctor it to say. So.
- [61:31]
Ben
Like, if you do that, it'll be a big change.
- [61:32]
Brian
Like, change would be a bad idea right now. Right. So she sits her down. You're down in the basement. Monster mash. Probably spooky. Like, she's got all the little battery candles and stuff, and she starts doing the reading and she pulls out the card and it's like, all the bad cards, it's just the worst reading she's ever given in terms of every card is like, you are about to die. Your life is about to go catastrophically wrong. Really bad change is about to happen. That's what all the cards supposedly meant. And she kept trying to turn it to the thing she'd been trying to, like, oh, death. But that could mean the death of one job in the beginning of another. And, like, you know, was doing the thing. Well, like, halfway through, the power goes out. It was just like, all of a sudden, everything's quiet and dark.
- [62:26]
Ben
Dude.
- [62:27]
Brian
Except for a few candles. And it's overall just absolutely freaky. And people are like, she's getting a little bit, like, scared. Okay, so whatever. She ends the reading and her friend is like, all right, whatever. That was a little weird. Leaves, whatever, party's over. Power comes back on. She's like, look, the power went out. Not infrequently. I was rural, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So about a week later, in the office, she hears, oh, did you hear what happened to Nancy? I don't know her real name. Whatever. Like, no, what? Her husband, who was at the party too, like, went out for a jog and collapsed and died. Like, 40 year old, ran marathons. Like, very healthy guy. Like, collapsed and died. Didn't find him for hours. So there was no way to resuscitate him. Like, he's just dead. And the Woman is obviously devastated. So she goes to their funeral, everything. And a couple weeks later, she comes back to the office, and the woman is like, hey, can you tell me about that tarot reading? Like, did you. Were you really trying to, like, soften the blow? Like, did all that bad stuff really come up? Like, did you stack the deck? Or did you try to make it sound like it wasn't? Because it seems like, as I think about it, everything that you did said, my husband was going to die or death was going to visit my family. And then she was like, I didn't fake it. I'm so sorry. It was just a game, whatever. And the whole thing was like, yet another. She's messing with something that she didn't believe. She didn't believe in Tasha, but.
- [64:05]
Ben
But she called on Tash, and Tash will answer.
- [64:08]
Brian
And Tash killed her friend's husband.
- [64:10]
Ben
To Tash, you will go, maybe.
- [64:12]
Brian
I don't know. But it was a crazy story to me because it was another example just, like, how easy it is for people to get mixed up in this stuff. And they think they're just sort of fooling around.
- [64:21]
Ben
Yeah.
- [64:22]
Brian
But they really are saying, like, oh, spirits speak to me. And they really are asking for it.
- [64:26]
Ben
Yeah.
- [64:27]
Brian
Like, and they get it.
- [64:28]
Ben
You can. You can be unconvinced in the sinfulness of a thing, but if you still commit the sin, it's still a sin.
- [64:37]
Brian
You can't just say, like, oops, I was kidding.
- [64:39]
Ben
Oh, I don't think that's a sin. No, it just is.
- [64:41]
Brian
But it actually was.
- [64:42]
Ben
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, that's.
- [64:45]
Brian
So don't play around with it. Is the other thing, like, don't just think, oh, I'm being funny. I'm playing around with it. Just don't do it.
- [64:50]
Ben
Is it bad that I know that we talk about on the show as a warning, you know, we shouldn't be glorying in. In the evil. Is it bad that when you said that the power went out, I got stoked. I was like, let's go, dude. This is about to get crazy.
- [65:06]
Brian
Well, it's the same thing. We say it all the time that, like, a good story, the bad part of the story is part of what makes it a good story.
- [65:14]
Ben
Yeah.
- [65:15]
Brian
That God actually told a story like that in his creation.
- [65:18]
Ben
You know, Aquinas actually talks about this in his summa, which I was reading a section of it this morning about providence. And one of the objections, the question was, are all things under God's providence? And one of the objections was, no, because Some things are clearly defective, which is to say, like, there's evil in the world and since God is all good, you can't have defect under a good providence. And Thomas had this. He basically answered the argument by saying, if we lose the bad, we also lose a massive amount of the good. And the point was that, yeah, the story, yeah, like the story that God's telling is actually, it's not uncaring for the individual. God actually cares for all of his creatures. But it is also broader in scope than the individual. And so if we start to think too much about how, you know, everyone sees themselves as the main character in their life and that's because they are actually, you know, if you are living your life and someone else is like the main character, that's kind of weird. But if you, if you take that too far, then you start to lose sight of how, just how like grand of a picture God's actually painting with Providence. So, hey, don't use tarot cards.
- [66:36]
Brian
Don't use tarot cards, but don't be fortune telling.
- [66:38]
Ben
Yeah, don't, don't be fortune telling. And by speaking of fortune telling, let's get into some more fortune telling because it turns out you don't need a Ouija board or tarot cards in order to try to practice these things. And you can even come, you know, some people that I think are charlatans or worse than charlatans can come off as very, actually like holy and good and yet be using tools that are forbidden to the saints. And so let's talk about one of those stories with Baba Vanga. Baba Yaga. The Baba Yaga. Baba Yaga. John Wick fans know.
- [67:26]
Brian
It was 1923 in the Ottoman town of Novoselo. A terrible storm system was blowing through the southeastern Balkans, unleashing sheets of rain, hail and massive winds upon the ancient village. A 12 year old girl named Vangelia Dimitrova was racing home to a single escape. The downpour. The storm was so violent that she could hardly see an arm's length in front of her. She just kept one hand gripped tightly around the wrist of her cousin, who ran ahead, dragging her forward. The children were confused. Just moments before, it had been a calm day. The sky was overcast, yes, but there was nothing to suggest what was coming. Then, without warning, the clouds blackened. Thunder cracked above them, followed by lightning strikes. So close their booming crashes left the girl deafened for seconds at a time. They ran through the twisted, labyrinthine streets of Novoselo, weaving between stone buildings and muddy alleyways. It was lucky that Vanga's cousin, for that's what they called her. Vanga knew the way so well. Vanga knew she would be lost if she let go of the hand she could barely see. Rain lashed their faces and the wind grew strong enough to push them back. Their clothes were soaked through, heavy and clinging to their limbs. And then, just as suddenly as it had begun, the storm seemed to stop. The sky remained dark, but the rain ceased and the wind died down enough for the girls to catch their breath and hear each other speak. They paused, looked around. Vanga felt a wave of relief wash over her, but it didn't last. A new gust picked up, this time from the opposite direction. It began as a gentle breeze sweeping the muddy streets but quickly built into a howling force at their backs. The girls staggered, nearly knocked off their feet and leaned against a stone wall for support. Above them, the sky swirled. The clouds began to circle one another like something alive. And then they saw it. A column of cloud twisted downward from the sky and planted itself in the earth just a few hundred yards ahead. The tornado churned the ground, swallowing dirt, debris, leaves, splinters, stones. The air filled with a screeching wind that sounded like a train's whistle. The cousins screamed for Vanga to hold on to the wooden post beside them. Vanga didn't hear her. Her hands slipped. And then she was airborne. The tornado lifted her and threw her through the air like a rag doll. Dirt and debris smashed against her face. It pelted her eyes until she couldn't see. Sea choked her until her screams turned to gags. She tumbled in the chaos, helpless, blind and terrified. And then, as fast as it had come, it was gone. The tornado dissipated. The winds slowed, the clouds pulled back and allowed the evening sun even to peek through. Her family searched all night. Finally, in a field two miles away, they found Vanga unconscious, barely recognizable, but still alive. They cleaned her face and carried her home. The next morning, she woke up screaming. She was blind. But that wasn't all she cried out about. Visions. Terrible visions of death and disaster, of loved ones in peril, of entire cities laid to ruin. She sobbed and screamed until she collapsed back into sleep. The family prayed that she would wake a second time in her right mind. They were not to be so lucky. That storm changed everything for Vanga. Gone was the normal girl who dreamed of a quiet life, family of her own. What came in the place of her sight was vision of another kind. See, the visions didn't stop. And since her waking world was now darkness, the visions piled on like dreams with no end. But as her homeland fell under the shadow of the Axis powers during world two war war ii, the madness began to sharpen into something focused, something powerful. Clairvoyance. And some said, much more than that. As the war raged on and the wounded filled the hospitals, Vanga became a fixture among them. She made regular visits to the dying, laying hands on their foreheads and whispering incantations under her breath. Within minutes, some of them began to breathe easier. Some, many even recovered. She became something like a goddess to the people. They asked her how she did it. Her answer. Shadowy creatures, unseen entities came to her. They told her what would happen. They taught her the language of healing, the mysteries of time, the way through suffering. By the end of the war, Vonga was a national hero, a mystic whose name was spread far beyond nova self. In the years that followed, Vanga devoted herself to fortune telling and prophecy. Suppliants came from all over, desperate to know what lay ahead on their path. Her power, they claimed, was so pure that she didn't even need to speak. She would simply take their hand and then know who they were, what they feared, what future awaited them. She never softened the truth. She told them exactly what she saw, whether it was comforting or awakened warning. Sometimes her prophecies went beyond the individual. She made claims about the fate of the whole world. Her followers believe that she predicted the fall of the Soviet Union, the Chernobyl disaster, the exact date of Stalin's death and her own. They say that she foretold the death of Princess Diana. The Kursk submarine disaster. During one seance, Vanga reportedly declared, the American brethren will fall after being attacked by the steel birds. The wolves will be howling in a bush and innocent blood will be gushing. After 9 11, this prophecy gained new attention. The steel birds were seen as the plains. The bush was a reference to President George W. Bush. The wolves, perhaps the confusion and chaos that followed. In another trance, she said, kursk will be covered with water and the whole world world will weep over it. End quote. Some years later, the Russian submarine Kursk sank in the Barents Sea. All 118 crewmen were killed. Others claim that she predicted the 44th president of the United States would be black. In 2008, Barack Obama became the 44th president. Believers say Vonga's predictions had an 85% accuracy rate. She said the knowledge came from invisible beings, familiars of a sort that whispered to her in the dark. Now, throughout her life, Vanga remained publicly committed to the Orthodox Christian faith. In 1990, she declared Saint Petka, an ascetic woman saint of the Balkans as her personal patron. Not long after, Vanga prophesied that a church must be built in St. Petka's honor. It was funded through Vanga's fortune telling earnings. The church was completed in October of 1994. But controversy came quickly. While the church bore St. Petka's name, the most prominent icons inside did not depict the saint. They depicted Vanga herself. She died on August 11, 1996, having succumbed to breast cancer. She was buried in the cemetery of the very church which she not only built, but which bore her likeness.
- [74:48]
Ben
Brian, that was a fascinating tale that you just wove like a spider in her web. Thank you. And yes, you are a female spider in this metaphor. My question is, when did this woman become a man named Keanu Reeves? Starring Baba Yaga? Baba Yaga. Baba Yaga. No. So I thought this was a really interesting story.
- [75:09]
Brian
Yeah, this is wild. Cause it weaves the Christianity and the cause she like.
- [75:13]
Ben
I mean, so the church, the Orthodox church at large, thought it was very controversial that she had icons of herself. But the thing is, they didn't. This is what makes icons so funny. They didn't think it was controversial just because she made icons of herself. The thing that was controversial about it was that she had made icons of herself before she was dead.
- [75:37]
Brian
Okay.
- [75:37]
Ben
They were like, if they people had just waited until after she died, it would have been cool. We have no problems.
- [75:42]
Brian
It would have been cash money. That's cool. That's fine. Yeah, look, that's totally fine.
- [75:46]
Ben
Not very cash money.
- [75:47]
Brian
It's not very cash money. You can't just be making icons of yourself while you're still alive.
- [75:51]
Ben
But so the thing about this is. So I have a question for you. Yeah. Because she talks about how these unseen beings or these like. These beings or whatever, they come to her and they tell her things. So this is a great segue into, you know, First Corinthians 7, like gifts of the Spirit. And is that 1 Corinthians 7, 1.
- [76:11]
Brian
Corinthians 11, 12, 13?
- [76:13]
Ben
Yeah, yeah, I was totally wrong.
- [76:15]
Brian
I'm sorry. 12, 13, and 14.
- [76:17]
Ben
Yeah. So, you know, like, what do Christians believe about the gift of prophecy?
- [76:23]
Brian
Wow. Okay. Big question. Big question.
- [76:26]
Ben
Yeah.
- [76:26]
Brian
No. So there are multiple perspectives. And the way that I think about it, about the Christian view of. Prof. The gift of prophecy, as well as just the sign gifts in general, healing tongues, prophecy, these sorts of things, is that there's a continuum of views flying. That's not one of them, Ben. Just Wishes that he could earnestly desire to fly. Can you imagine how cool the apostles were? Just zooming around?
- [76:56]
Ben
Dude, I'm just standing up, like it like this. I just have wings.
- [77:02]
Brian
Sit down. All right.
- [77:03]
Ben
Okay.
- [77:04]
Brian
There's a continuum. On the one edge, you have the very hard cessationist position, which is like John MacArthur, G3. These are folks who would say, anybody who talks about prophesying or tongues or anything like that today is absolutely wrong.
- [77:20]
Ben
Or even like deceased. It's kind of like hyper cessationism. They would even and say, like, if you have like a vision or a dream, right. And it tells you something, it is never, ever, ever from God in the.
- [77:30]
Brian
Yeah. God speaks to us in the scriptures. He doesn't speak to us through these subjective means like that. So then on the way. Other end, you have. And I'm going to say within, because there's unorthodox. Like, the Montanists were an early church group that were heretics, and they had other problems like asceticism and forbidding marriage and things like that. But they practiced the sign gifts in a way that was uncommon in the day, like tongues and et cetera. So within the realm of orthodoxy, you have more of the charismatic movement today, the modern charismatic movement that would include groups that even see things like speaking in tongues as a sign of regeneration.
- [78:06]
Ben
A necessary sign.
- [78:07]
Brian
A necessary sign, some of them. So you're actually not likely to be regenerate unless. Hey. That you've spoken in tongues, which is problematic.
- [78:15]
Ben
Oh, look at me, I am regenerate.
- [78:20]
Brian
He's not just speaking in a bad Indian accent.
- [78:23]
Ben
So that would count.
- [78:23]
Brian
Believe it or not, that wouldn't count. Okay. Now, thank you. Thank you. Because we actually hadn't fulfilled our quota.
- [78:30]
Ben
Yeah.
- [78:31]
Brian
For offending people who are, for some reason offended by the mildest. Good. First of all, if some Indian guy does this, like a Southern California or like an American accent, I'm flattered.
- [78:43]
Ben
Yeah, yeah.
- [78:44]
Brian
If I'm a Texan and some guy in India is like, oh, let me do your accent. All right, all right, all right. You're gonna go ahead and. All right, all right, all right. I'm like, dude, you did it.
- [78:53]
Ben
Take you out to the air stream. I'll make you some margaritas that'll blow your horns off.
- [78:57]
Brian
See what I'm saying? Like, that pleases me. People in the comments that are mad at us doing, first of all, spot on Japanese accents, constantly touchpeb.
- [79:08]
Ben
So cessationism.
- [79:10]
Brian
Cessationism on the one hand, charismatic movement on the other I'm not on either one of those edges. I would land somewhere towards the cessationist position generally. But more representative, I think, of how the Reformers and how the Protestant tradition is classically spoken about these things, which is that there genuinely were periods, three of them, in the Scriptures, in the history of the church, in Scripture, where you had intense periods of miracles that was even in Scripture, not normal. Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and then the apostles, Christ and the apostles. And during these three periods you had intense miraculous signs being done. Now there are other miracles in other periods of time, but they're not so clustered in the same way. Right. And during the, the apostolic age, one of the things that seems to be happening is that God is confirming this paradigm change where the Judaic aeon is coming to a close, the Old Covenant Judaic aeon. And we're coming into this new era where the signs are giving way to the substance, the shadows are giving way to the substance. With the arrival of Christ, the prophetic is being fulfilled in Christ. However, I don't think that means that God no longer can work miraculously in healing that you couldn't have God give the gift of tongues to somebody that you couldn't have. God gives prophecy, which I'm not talking about like a Old Testament prophet like Isaiah, who's going to rise again and write a new book in the Bible.
- [80:47]
Ben
Speaking to the corporate assembly saying thus saith the Lord and it's this like binding divine law.
- [80:52]
Brian
But you would absolutely. I believe the Spirit leads people subjectively and that he does this according to his will. Now we must test all of these things according to scripture and make sure that we're not claiming that God told us to do something contrary to his word. But I would absolutely be fine with somebody saying the Spirit. I believe the Spirit is leading me to do X rather than Y, when both are lawful options and seeking wisdom. You should seek wisdom from the Lord. I believe that the Lord could give dreams to somebody, visions to somebody that would still be from the Lord and that that could be lawful. So I'm somewhere over there, this particular instance. Just. The problem is it sounds exactly like what corporate wants you to show me. The difference between this picture and that picture. And one is Baba Yaga or Baba Vanga, Baba Vanga. And the other one is like just literally witchcraft, where you're communing with familiar spirits to fortune tell. Because that's the thing, it's vague fortune telling.
- [82:01]
Ben
It's also a commercial endeavor.
- [82:03]
Brian
Right?
- [82:04]
Ben
Like this is where it starts to get Ah, bad is the way that they built that church was based on the profits of people giving her offerings for the fortune telling.
- [82:16]
Brian
I see.
- [82:17]
Ben
So that immediately should be a huge red flag. And yeah, I mean, I totally agree with you. In fact, like, I actually sometimes take issue with folks that are more on that, like, really far hyper cessationist perspective. My mom, her mother died when I think my mom was like 20 or 21 or something. And every couple years my mom will reach out to me or we'll be talking on the phone. And she said this for as long as I can remember, like, oh, yeah, the Lord gave me a dream of just like kind of, you know, what it was like to have dinner with my mom back when I was still a kid. And it was just so sweet, you know, I can't wait to see her again. And I'm like, the fruit of that is that she's really honoring her mom. She's remembering her mom. And my mom is also one of the most, like, faithful, like just a bulwark of faith that she's been in my life. And so I'm like, I just don't see that and see, wow, that is the fruits of Satan's words. Yeah.
- [83:19]
Brian
Even like when you think about the activity of somebody who is operating within the Spirit's calling and gifting, like a pastor preaching, there is genuinely a problem in a lot of the Reformed tradition or camp where we can mistake mere exegesis for preaching. And preaching requires the unction of the Holy Spirit, where God is empowering the preaching supernaturally. It's not just conveying information.
- [83:45]
Ben
The Puritans oftentimes spoke of the sermon as a form of prophecy, the art of prophesying, where they were saying that like a form of prophecy is a normative thing for clergy because the pastor is doing it every week when he preaches a sermon, he's actually prophesying. And so that's how you get like the Reformed position for the Orthodox. The Reformed Orthodox at least, is that when you're listening to the sermon, you are hearing the word of God not only when he is reading the passage, but in a sense, even when he's expositing the passage for the people. You're like, you are hearing the word of God.
- [84:20]
Brian
He's an angel, a messenger. He walks amongst. He's in the lampstand of the church, like he's delivering the word of God as a minister.
- [84:27]
Ben
He's held by Christ as the messenger, his direct messenger to the people there at that local church. Anyway, fascinating stuff.
- [84:36]
Brian
Baba Vanga.
- [84:37]
Ben
Baba Vanga. Baba Yaga. John Wick, Keanu Reeves.
- [84:40]
Brian
I'm gonna say the 911 prophecy's a little sus dude.
- [84:45]
Ben
I will say though, the Steel Birds. Why would she be talking about Tina Bush? Yeah. People are like, but I heard it. And I was like, nah, that's creepy. The Kursk one is creepy. Creepy where she was like, water will cover the Kursk.
- [84:59]
Brian
Yeah.
- [85:00]
Ben
And I don't even think she knew that like a submarine existed. I don't know. It seems like North Macedonia is like a third world.
- [85:08]
Brian
Here's my question. How do. Because if it's genuinely demonic, how do the demons. I know they fortune tell in Acts 16. They do that kind of thing.
- [85:17]
Ben
Yeah.
- [85:17]
Brian
The girl that makes a profit by fortune telling has an unclean spirit. Excuse me.
- [85:22]
Ben
Well said.
- [85:23]
Brian
Thank you so much. Wow. But could they, you know, how would they know that 911 was gonna happen in the 90s unless the demons were orchestrating George W. Bush's and all of the different.
- [85:40]
Ben
Wow. I just, I just made it sound.
- [85:42]
Brian
Like I said George w. Bush did 9 11.
- [85:44]
Ben
Which I do believe.
- [85:46]
Brian
And I'm not necessarily. I'm not prepared in this episode of Haunted Cosmos to speak about that. So let me just back up and say it was vague. And the thing about vague prophecies like Nostradamus is that they're always like. I could right now look in the camera and say two vines will grow in the east, the younger will strangle the older and a dry wind will blow in from the west bringing devastation with the harvest. And someone could be like, given an open ended amount of time from five minutes from now to a thousand years from now, people are going to be like, dang, he was predicting the sun Din dynasty sweeping down upon the Saudis.
- [86:24]
Ben
Yeah. Like, yeah, here's the thing.
- [86:27]
Brian
Made it up.
- [86:28]
Ben
Maybe this is all made up. Could be the reason that I don't. The reason that I don't. Am not willing to like totally buy into that is because of how many like otherwise very just ordinary Eastern Orthodox Christians. We're like, oh no, she's our gal. You know, there's Baba. Now here's another thing. I think that one of the tendencies of the Eastern Orthodox Church in terms of error is not discerning the spirits. I think that they tend to be not very good at that. And so maybe that objection really doesn't hold any water at all. I don't know. But it gave me Orthodox.
- [87:08]
Brian
Please leave us a comment about how.
- [87:10]
Ben
You feel about us about me saying that. Yes, Because I'm sure that you have feelings. And listen, I get it, all right? Protestantism has a lot of problems, too.
- [87:21]
Brian
I only mentioned we've got Joel Osteen, you've got Baba Yaga. Okay, fair and in the same vein.
- [87:30]
Ben
But on the other side of the coin, you know, y' all have Sarah from Rose, and we have. And we have John Calvin. Cool.
- [87:39]
Brian
Pretty cool.
- [87:40]
Ben
Cool. All right. Should we close out?
- [87:42]
Brian
I think it's time for us to close out. Let's leave you before we end in this hot close and just say, look, guys, don't you need to discern the spirits? Don't go getting involved with tarot cards, with fortune telling, with Magic the Gathering. Don't get involved with that kind of stuff. Well, I actually don't know about Magic the Gathering, but I actually put the Ouija board.
- [88:03]
Ben
I think Magic the Gathering is cool.
- [88:05]
Brian
I actually know nothing about it.
- [88:06]
Ben
Well, not cool. I would never do it because I'm not a nerd like that. But I do have friends that play it, and I think. I think it's above board. Okay.
- [88:16]
Brian
It's like Pokemons.
- [88:16]
Ben
Yeah, it's like Pokemons. It's like Yu. Gi.
- [88:20]
Brian
Oh, what do you call it?
- [88:21]
Ben
Just Pokemon. Singular.
- [88:22]
Brian
And that's a plural. Like you can say Pokemon covers all the Pokemons.
- [88:26]
Ben
Well, yeah, because it's like Pokemon cards.
- [88:28]
Brian
It's like sheep or deer. Sheep. Sheep.
- [88:31]
Ben
Yep.
- [88:31]
Brian
Okay.
- [88:33]
Ben
You're welcome. Enjoy this closing story, which is about a woman in the country of Spain who plays with a Ouija board and regrets it. When she was 16 years old, Estefania Lazaro was seated at the dinner table with her family. Her father and mother were there, along with her two younger siblings, a brother and sister. The Spanish family lived in an apartment building on the outskirts of Madrid in the neighborhood of Vallecas. Estefania was a good girl. Even at casual family dinners, she never forgot her manners. She listened intently as her parents caught up on the day. She answered their questions thoughtfully. She loved her family, and it showed a rarity for a girl her age and an ever changing high rise upper modern world. Unfortunately, that night's dinner would not be remembered for its peace. It would be remembered only with dread for the strangeness that followed it. The plates were empty and the family lingered in conversation. Estefania's mother glanced at the time and interrupted herself, telling her younger son to go get ready for bed. Chairs scraped the floor as everyone stood to help clean up. But when Estefania rose to take her plate to the counter, her body suddenly Crumbled, crumbled. She collapsed to the floor as if boneless, her limbs seizing violently. Foamy spit bubbled from her mouth, pink with blood. Her eyes rolled back into her head. It happened so suddenly that neither parent understood what they were seeing until it was nearly over. The convulsion lasted only a few seconds before they could call an ambulance or even reach their daughter. Estefania was already struggling to her feet. She wiped her mouth, braced herself against the table, and looked at her parents through strands of now disheveled hair. She nodded, somehow indicating that she was all right. She asked for water. They gave it to her. She sipped it slowly as they walked her to her bedroom. There she lay down and fell instantly into a deep sleep. She didn't emerge until the morning. Only after she had gone to bed did anyone mention how cold the kitchen had become. From that night on, everything changed. Over the next eight months, Estefania descended into a terrifying state of physical, mental, and spiritual collapse. She was never the same after that seizure. At home, she became a raving mad woman. She mumbled to herself. She walked hunched over with a double back gait. She fainted and fell into seizures at random times. Only now she would scream frantically. While convulsing, she began attacking her siblings. One moment the family would be sitting quietly on the couch. The next, Estefania would explode with fury, striking at whoever was closest to her, hurling curses as she rained down blows. Afterwards, she would return to herself and have no memory of what she had just done. The episodes became more frequent. Her parents, no longer able to safely send her to school, kept her home. She became a hermit in her room. Her mother often heard evil laughter behind the door. Laughter that didn't sound like Estephania's. There were loud bangs, as though someone was hurling themselves against the walls. Manic singing would carry on until her voice gave out. Scraping sounds like claws on asphalt. Mechanical whirring screams. All of it came from behind the door of her room. Her mother was too afraid to look. She only opened the door after the noises stopped. And each time she found her daughter sitting cross legged in the center of the room, blank eyed and muttering in voices she didn't recognize. She would leave the room quickly whenever Estefania snapped her gaze upward to lock eyes with her, always filled with fury. When she emerged from her room. The few times that she did, she wasn't violent, but she was no less disturbing. She shuffled half upright down the hallway toward the kitchen or bathroom. She oftentimes collapsed to the floor and would just crawl. The rest of the the way, on all fours. Sometimes she never made it back to her room at all. On several occasions, her mother found her squatting like an emaciated prisoner, just facing the hallway wall, scratching strange symbols into the plaster. They were esoteric, threatening, and utterly unfamiliar. If a wall marking could be evil, then these certainly were. She mumbled. Always she shook, shook, would sweat through all of her clothes one day while Estefania scratched more symbols onto the wall with just her nails. By the way, her mother stepped carefully past her and into the bedroom. The room was freezing cold. A sharp wind blew into her face, tossing her hair around, but the window was shut. She couldn't locate any source for this violent draft. It seemed to change direction with her movements always blowing straight towards her, no matter where she went in the room. And it was a filthy room. Human waste marked the walls and floor. Where there wasn't filth, there were strange books, piles of them, all about witchcraft, all about the occult. And her mother had never, ever seen them before. She had no idea where Estefania had gotten them. Realizing how far things had gone, the family took her to a doctor. But when they stepped into the office office, everything changed. Gone was the hunched over posture, the matted hair, the twitching. Estefania smiled. She spoke clearly and sweetly, and she had no recollection of her madness. The doctors examined her thoroughly and found her to be in perfect health, both mentally and physically. They saw nothing wrong. When the family returned home, however, the darkness returned. Within minutes, Estefania was back in her fugue state, back in her torment, her possession. Life continued like this until her parents insisted on a longer hospital stay. The doctors agreed to keep her under observation for a full week. But midway through that week, Estefania died in the night of sudden cardiac arrest. Thus ended the life of Estefania Lazaro. After the funeral, her mother returned home and began the painful task of cleaning her daughter's bedroom. She scrubbed the carpet, hung up Estefania's girl, less pictures. Put the crucifix back above the mirror. It was a Catholic family and threw away every single one of the occult books. The room was restored, but whatever had taken Estefania didn't appreciate this. The mother awoke morning after morning to find the room ransacked again. Furniture overturned, objects flung across the room, drawers pulled open. The family, now deeply shaken, began to wonder just what it was that had grabbed hold of their daughter. They contacted Estefania's old Catholic girls school. They asked the sisters there if anyone had noticed anything strange in the months before her Illness. One of the nuns asked to visit the family in person. What she told them, would change everything. Eight months before the girl's death, the nun had gone down into the chapel basement after hours to retrieve something. Halfway down the creaking stairs, she heard voices. Children's voices, girls voices. She wasn't afraid, but she wanted to catch them in their mischief. So she didn't turn on the light, and she moved as quietly as she could through the narrow corridor. She saw four girls, illuminated by candlelight, sitting in a circle around a Ouija board. They had cleared space on the floor. Pentagrams, she would later discover, had been drawn in church chalk around the board. The nun just listened. One of the girls, not Estefania, was holding the planchette and calling out to her recently deceased boyfriend. The nun remembered that he had died in a motorcycle crash not long before. She was struck by how grief tempts people towards folly. Still, nothing happened. The girl pleaded. The board stayed silent. Then Estefania reached forward. She put her fingers on the planchette and closed her eyes. She pleaded with all sincerity for the spirits to speak. She asked them to reveal themselves. And suddenly the planchette jolted and darted around the board. The girls screamed. It was burning their fingers, but they couldn't let go. The nun rushed into the room. She grabbed the board. It was far heavier than she expected, and she slammed it back onto the floor, trying to break it. Break it she did. The girls dropped the planchette instantly. But from the sundered board, a thick white smoke rose up. It moved strangely, intentionally, as if the smoke was sentient, and it drifted straight towards Estefania, who inhaled sharply in fear. The smoke disappeared into her nose and mouth. At the time, the nun was rattled, but believed the danger had passed. She hadn't told the school or the parents. The girls had only been trying to comfort a grieving friend. It was foolish and misdirected, but the nun thought harmless. She never thought about it again. That is, not until after Estefania's death. The family now believed they knew the truth. Their daughter had been possessed by something attached to the board, and that possession had killed her. The mother, determined to be rid of it, entered the bedroom one last time. The whispers returned. So did the freezing wind. She stepped to the center of the room and closed her eyes to pray. A sound interrupted her. A soft thud on the floor. She opened her eyes and saw a photo frame lying face down. She bent down to pick it up. It was a picture of Estefania. The mother smiled at the memory, but in an instant the photo burst into flames. Scorching heat burned her hand. She screamed and dropped the photo and backed against the far wall. And then she looked up. There was the mirror, and above it was the crucifix that she had rehung the day of Estefania's funeral. It was now hanging upside down. The Lazzaro family moved out of the apartment soon thereafter. They haven't suffered another known episode of demonic torment ever since.
- [98:29]
Brian
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