Waco - S5:E5

Summary

---

Haunted Cosmos – S5:E5: Waco

Air date: August 20, 2025
Hosts: Ben Garrett & Brian Sauvé

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Ben and Brian tackle the infamous 1993 Waco Siege between the Branch Davidians—led by cult figure David Koresh—and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF). The hosts explore not only the personal history and formation of the Branch Davidians but also the origins and methods of the ATF, leading up to a meticulous account of the siege itself. Their discussion exposes the moral ambiguities and institutional failures on both sides, emphasizing the tragic consequences of spiritual delusion and unchecked government power.

Main theme: Investigating a world that isn't just stuff, but is also shaped by unseen motivations, spiritual realities, and the choices of both individuals and institutions that claim authority.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mythic Beginnings and the Power Struggle at Mount Carmel

[00:58 – 13:00]

• Dramatic Cold Open: Ben and Brian stage the episode with an evocative retelling of the leadership conflict at Mount Carmel, starting in 1987 with a clandestine exhumation duel between George Roden and Vernon Howell (Koresh), highlighting the blend of cultic delusion and petty human rivalry.

  • Koresh is cast as both prophet and challenger; Roden is painted as paranoid and violent, culminating in exile, violence, and Koresh’s eventual return as cult leader.
  • Notable quote:

    “By the time we're done telling you the sad tale at the heart of today's episode…you'll likely stand back from the cast of characters and ask, can all of them lose? And in a way, that is exactly what happened just outside the city limits of Waco, Texas.” (Brian, 00:58)

• Cult Origins: The Branch Davidian lineage, evolving from 19th-century doomsday prophecies to Victor Houteff’s apocalyptic Shepherd’s Rod, is traced. Leadership passes through generations of self-proclaimed prophets before finally falling to Koresh.

---

2. David Koresh: Troubled Origins to Messianic Leader

[13:00 – 25:00]

• Personal History:
  • Koresh (born Vernon Wayne Howell) was raised in instability, marked by poverty, abuse, and fatherlessness. Early religious obsession and social exclusion are covered, including formative experiences with scripture memory and divine revelation.
  • Patterns emerge: fixation on biblical prophecy, repeated grooming/abusive relationships with teen girls ("illicit relationships with a pastor’s daughter"), and alienation from mainstream churches that reinforces his messianic delusions.
  • Koresh eventually finds a home among the Branch Davidians, quickly rising in influence.
• Observations from the Hosts: The hosts reflect on the “ordinary” family dysfunctions and spiritual hunger that often undergird cult formation—not as an excuse, but as context.
  • Notable quote:

    “Notice how ordinary all of this cultic development is…Like how it's just—we have a charismatic young man, he's experienced significant instability in his childhood…You see the way that sin affected his upbringing.” (Brian, 27:09)

• Cult Leader Patterns:
  • Koresh fits the pattern of convinced cult leaders: self-delusion, manipulation, “special revelation,” and, inevitably, sexual deviance cloaked in prophetic authority.
  • Sexual sin is highlighted as both a spiritual and psychological accelerant for the corruption of cults.
  • Notable exchange:

    “...Often men in these cultic situations, they're given two things from God. Total control over other people... And the other through line is sexual sin. You see this so frequently in male cult leaders.” (Brian, 31:23)

---

3. The ATF: Bureaucratic Origins, Entrapment, and Escalation

[38:27 – 54:40]

• Deep Dive into ATF’s History:

  • The ATF began as revenue enforcers tasked with collecting taxes—especially on alcohol and tobacco—and escalated into a militarized federal agency, with a legacy of increasing violence and dubious legal tactics.

• Ruby Ridge as Precursor:

  • The Ruby Ridge standoff (1992) is dissected as a prototype for government overreach: entrapment, escalation, tragic death of civilians (including a boy and his dog), and lack of accountability—themes echoed at Waco.
  • Notable quote:

    “These agents were the first iteration of what we now call ATF agents. Government commissioned enforcers authorized to exercise extreme brutality against those who crossed civil code lines.” (Ben, 43:42)

  • Timothy McVeigh’s bombing of Oklahoma City is linked—if not justified—to the government’s actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco, illustrating the boomerang effects of unchecked federal violence.

• Host Commentary:

  • Ben and Brian are scathing about the ATF, drawing parallels between the self-justifying mindsets of cultists and bureaucrats.
  • Humorous aside: The hosts frequently employ satire and dark humor to underscore absurdities in both cultic and institutional behaviors.

---

4. The Siege at Waco: Escalation, Negotiation, and Tragedy

[57:02 – 100:56]

Preparations and Misunderstandings

• Mount Carmel under Koresh: The compound becomes an isolated, armed, and eerily “normal” community, even enjoying goodwill in Waco before press exposés and rumors escalate suspicions.
• ATF Surveillance and Infiltration:
  • The ATF opens a highly publicized investigation, stationing “undercover” college-age agents in plain sight—immediately identified by Koresh and the Davidians.
  • Despite multiple peaceful invitations to search the property (and no legal violations found), the ATF presses for an aggressive raid, using accusations of illegal weapons and “apocalyptic rhetoric” as justification.
  • Notable exchange:

    “All of the allegations that led to the ATF being involved…the Davidians, David Koresh included, had been 100% open. Hey, come on the property. Look at our records. Investigate it. Because they knew they weren't breaking the law.” (Ben, 71:29)

The Raid and 51-Day Siege

• The Raid (Feb 28, 1993):

  • The ATF, after their operation is accidentally leaked to a Branch Davidian, launches a full-scale raid. Koresh tries to deescalate, but the ATF fires first. Chaos ensues, with deaths on both sides.
  • Host observations point out the gross disproportionality and lack of deescalation by the federal agents.

• Siege Tactics:

  • FBI/ATF begin a protracted standoff, employing psychological torture (loudspeakers broadcasting slaughter sounds, cutting utilities) and tank assaults. Koresh releases children, negotiates, but remains steadfast in his delusion.
  • When armored vehicles collapse the compound’s bunker exits and tear gas is introduced, a fire erupts—likely started by federal actions—which is allowed to burn as firefighters are held back.
  • Mass death follows: 76 Davidians, including 23 children, perish in fire or from mercy killings as escape is impossible.
  • Notable quote:

    “Inside, the rest of the Davidians burned alive or were met with another unholy end. Later, forensic reports showed many died from suffocation and poison. Tear gas becomes toxic. Others died from gunshot wounds. Mercy killings from one member to another.” (Ben, 89:16)

• Aftermath:

  • ATF agents pose triumphantly for photos over the ruins, framing the event as a heroic victory.

---

5. Reflections, Takeaways, and Warnings

[99:40 – End]

• Universal Depravity:
  • Both Koresh and the ATF serve as archetypes of mirror-image arrogance—each convinced of divine or institutional righteousness, blinded to their atrocities.
  • The siege is portrayed as a story where “everyone loses,” with tragedy springing from pride, delusion, and the machinery of power.
  • Notable quote:

    “I see in David Koresh and the ATF as a whole, two entities that are guilty of the same exact things. Mirror image sins. The difference is that the ATF happened to be the one to kill everyone else on the opposing side.” (Ben, 101:37)

• Spiritual and Civic Warnings:
  • The hosts warn of the dangers inherent to unchecked spiritual charisma (cults) and unchecked bureaucratic authority (militarized agencies).
  • The lessons from Waco are stark: “take seriously the warnings about the qualifications of leaders, the warning against deception by false teachers...these things aren't an accident. These are commonplace in history.” (Brian, 100:56)
• On Misunderstanding Apocalyptic Rhetoric:
  • The government’s failure to distinguish spiritual hyperbole from actual militaristic threat is unpacked as both tragic and willful in its ignorance.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On the universality of loss at Waco:

  "Can all of them lose? And in a way, that is exactly what happened just outside the city limits of Waco, Texas." (Brian, 00:58)

• Koresh’s psychological and spiritual origins:

  "You see the way that sin affected his upbringing. Not just his own sin, but all the sin around him..." (Brian, 27:09)

• Cynical take on reform and government agencies:

  "The ATF is just thoroughly an unconstitutional organization. The things that they do are explicitly forbidden in the Constitution..." (Brian, 52:45)

• On government posing as heroic in tragedy:

  "When the ashes cooled, the ATF raised their agency flag above the ruins of Mount Carmel and posed for pictures. And victory." (Ben, 90:06)

• On spiritual warning:

  "Anybody who's known someone who got involved in legitimate cults knows how powerful the manipulation is and how much damage it can cause." (Brian, 100:56)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Cult Power Struggle and Origins: 00:58 – 13:00
• Koresh's Backstory and Psychological Development: 13:00 – 25:00
• Analysis of Cult Leader Pathology: 29:54 – 34:00
• ATF History & Government Overreach: 38:27 – 54:40
• Ruby Ridge, Entrapment, and Escalation: 43:42 – 53:14
• Waco Siege—The Build-Up & ATF Tactics: 57:02 – 89:16
• The Assault, Fire, and Aftermath: 80:40 – 90:06
• Host Reflections & Concluding Thoughts: 99:40 – 102:29

---

Episode Tone & Language

• Language: Candid, conversational, at times irreverent, with bursts of dark humor and spiritual reflection.
• Tone: Suspicious of both cult leaders and government authority, frequently oscillating between empathy for victims, moral outrage, and satirical asides.
• Memorable banter: Playful mock self-comparisons to Koresh (24:10), recurring jokes about ATF’s reputation, and frequent use of pop-culture references (e.g., The Incredibles, memes).

---

Final Takeaways

• The tragedy of Waco is portrayed as the result of ordinary sins—pride, delusion, institutional inertia—that, left unchecked, spiral into catastrophe.
• Both the Branch Davidians and the ATF are analyzed as institutions incapable of self-critique, fortified by their own “press” and authority.
• The episode cautions listeners: beware unchecked charisma, seek wisdom in authority both spiritual and civic, and recognize patterns of manipulation and escalation before they burn the world down.

---

(This summary covers all discussions, critical insights, host reflections, and narrative highlights from Haunted Cosmos S5:E5: Waco, omitting advertisements and intro/outro non-content sections for clarity and depth.)

Transcript

[Brian]

In this episode of Haunted Cosmos, we learn that no dog is safe from the atf. And I learn that I have an astonishing amount in common with known cult leader David Koresh. This episode is brought to you by Zilli Creative Works, bringing you face to face family fun that is fierce, fast, and affordable.

[Ben]

The world is not just stuff.

[Brian]

Minus 111.9 the widely publicized mystery of.

[Ben]

The flying saucers may soon be solved.

[Brian]

By the time we're done telling you the sad tale at the heart of today's episode of Haunted Cosmos, you'll likely stand back from the cast of characters and ask, can all of them lose? And in a way, that is exactly what happened just outside the city limits of Waco, Texas. The year was 1987. It was a black night in East Texas. The wind whipped like a slave driver's lash between the gray headstones that passed beneath George Rawden's plodding feet. In his right hand he held a shovel, in his left, a gas lantern. He wasn't looking for just any grave. It had to be old enough not to upset his followers too deeply, but recent enough to still mean something to them. After more than an hour of reading epitaphs and narrowing down his options, he found one that seemed to fit. He set the lantern on a nearby marker and began to dig. The work was slow, grueling. Every time he wiped his brow with a dirt streaked sleeve, a new smear formed, aging him by what seemed like decades. By the end, his shirt clung to his body and soaked through. His pants were heavy with the thick, wet air. When the hole was finally finished, he collapsed onto its rim, breathless. The lantern's glow was now blocked by the edge of the pit, cloaking the grave's contents in a velvety darkness. After catching his breath, Radh and remained there, almost immobile with exhaustion. The wind still hadn't let up. It began to push his damp shirt against his freshly dried skin, sending a chill through his body. He took it as his cue to get back to work. After all, he wasn't done. Not yet. He climbed out of the hole, grabbed the lantern and knelt again. Now the light showed everything. The rotting wood, the hand from the old, dried out corpse fallen out of a hole in the coffin. Even in death, this nobody, for that was how Rodin thought of him, had been a victim of rats. Rahden jumped down into the grave and stood at the coffin's head, facing the corpse full length. He squatted and shuffled his hands beneath either side of the box till he had a firm grip Then he pulled up, hard and fast. In a second, between the coffin's sharp rise and its inevitable drop, he twisted his hands and began to push. A moment later, the wooden container and its macabre content tents stood upright at the far end of its own grave. Rahden gave it one final shove from the bottom and stepped back with an exhausted sigh as it fell onto the grass above. Back from Hades came this body, and Radhen intended to bring something else back, too. Early the next morning, Radden hadn't slept, of course. He faxed his foe, a man named Vernon Howell. In the fax was a challenge quote, raise someone from the dead and I will give all the power to you. I have exhumed one of my own, one who used to be your own, too. Come back home and prove your worth if you are such a prophet. Whoever can bring his soul back from the dead and give him life again will be the leader. It was the final straw for Vernon in a long string of bitter disputes between the two men. They had once been friends, living together on the same compound, but that was a nearly forgotten memory now. After the death of his mother, the previous leader, George Radden, became increasingly erratic, paranoid, threatened by anyone he believed might outshine him. The violence soon followed. Outbursts of rage, physical attacks on his own Seventh Day Adventist followers. Much of his insecurity focused on Vernon. Vernon was charismatic, sharp witted and trusted. He had massive portions of the Bible memorized cold. He spoke like a prophet, and unlike Radhen, he did so with authority. Naturally, he began to act like one, too. Now this chafed Radhen to the breaking point. Out of spite and to the unease of everyone, Radden excommunicated Vernon and his followers. After that, Vernon and his people settled in a smaller compound in Palestine, Texas. They moved on, preaching to new converts and leaving Radhen behind, at least in principle. But in practice, Vernon's influence lingered. Radhen couldn't just ignore it. Hence the hasty exhumation. Hence the furious invitation to a duel of necromancy, an invitation Vernon rejected outright. But he didn't stop there. He also contacted Texas authorities accusing Radhen of defiling a corpse, a crime. Authorities, however, did nothing. Something snapped in Vernon. Maybe it was pride, an opportunity to seize power in light of Rawdon's blunder. Maybe it was anger. Maybe it was something darker. Whatever the reason, Vernon shed his peaceful demeanor. He took up a new strategy, one that would mark him for the rest of his life. On November 3, 1987, Vernon Howell mounted a siege against George Radden's compound with seven armed followers. And he marched up to the Mount Carmel cemetery aiming to get photographic evidence of the exhumation that had so enraged him. It didn't go well. Tensions flared immediately and soon shots were fired. For hours the eight men from Palestine, Vernon at their head, pinned down Radden and his supporters with fire. The return fire came to line them. When it ended, six of Rahddin's followers were wounded. Radden himself was shot in the leg and and left hiding behind an oak tree. When the authorities arrived, Vernon and his seven men were arrested and charged with attempted murder. During the trial, six were acquitted, one was found guilty. And in Vernon's case, the jury deadlocked until the judge dropped the charges entirely. No photos were ever produced. Radden was never charged for the exhumation. On paper, the whole effort was a failure. But only on paper. Those still living at Mount Carmel, those still loyal to Vernon, saw things differently. They saw honor in his attempt. They saw a hero returning for a righteous cause. A man standing for truth even at the risk of his own life. They saw in him a David figure standing against the tyranny of Radden, their Saul. Like the biblical Saul, Radden's grip on power unraveled. His paranoia spiraled. His fuse disappeared. In 1989 he murdered a man with an axe. Radhen believed the man was a federal agent sent to assassinate him. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity and ultimately committed to a mental institution where he lived out the rest of his miserable days. Into the power vacuum stepped Vernon. He returned to Mount Carmel, welcomed now as both prophet and king. And he took up a new name. David. Maybe you've heard the rest. David Koresh and that little Seventh Day Adventist cult he lad they had a name too. They were called the Branch Davidians. Now David Koresh was born Vernon Wayne Howell on August 17, 1950 in Houston, Texas. He was the illegitimate child of an illicit relationship between a 20 year old man and a 14 year old girl. Before the birth, his father disappeared, never to return. The infant Vernon was left in the trembling arms of his teenage mother, Bonnie Sue Clark, who had no idea what to do. Bonnie soon rushed into a hasty marriage with a man named Joe Golden. Within a year, Joe revealed himself to be a serial abuser. Bonnie divorced him and fled into the arms of her mother, A. Erlene Clark. Erlein welcomed the boy and raised him while Bonnie tried to find her footing in the world. And so for the first four years of his life, the would be David Koresh lived with his maternal grandmother. In those years, he learned to walk and talk, though he only ever spoke with a stutter. And he developed a fascination with fishing. He didn't do much of it, but he obsessed about it. He studied it. Pictures, stories, men by the pond. He. He'd watch them for hours. But for all the childhood whimsy that may appear in hindsight, Koresh's early life was marked by darkness. Beyond the chaos of his parentage, the toddler lived in constant poverty. Erlein gave him love, but she struggled to provide. They moved nearly every year in search of work and housing. He felt unmoored, a fish out of water. Perhaps things would have been different with stable parents or siblings to ground him, but. But he had neither. One constant, however, was church. Erlene took him to the Southern Baptist Church as often as she could. To her joy, he loved it. Even as a child, the idea of divine revelation seemed to fascinate him. Erlene hoped this early spark might redeem his troubled beginnings. When Vernon turned 5, Bonnie remarried. Her new husband was a merchant marine named Roy Haldeman. Feeling stable for the first time, she reclaimed her son. But Vernon didn't know Bonnie was his birth mother. He'd believed Erlein was. The revelation devastated him. He had to say goodbye to the only real family he'd known and accept a new life with a stranger who called herself his mother. The Haldemans lived in Richardson, Texas. Despite his speech issues, school difficulties, dyslexia, and frequent bullying, Vernon gradually adjusted. He had half siblings he got along with relatively well. He finally got to fish, and so he fished constantly. He still loved the church and memorized scripture obsessively. When he recited verses, strangely, his stutter vanished, so he committed entire passages to memory. His family, delighted with this, encouraged it. But soon they began to worry. As Vernon entered adolescence, his reverence for the Bible morphed into an almost obsession. He immersed himself in Old Testament prophecy, especially the apocalyptic books Isaiah, Daniel, and Revelation. He'd read and re read them deep into the night, scorning distractions that might make up a healthy teen's life. Then, one spring morning, he told his mother that he'd received a divine vision the night before. He didn't say what it was, but its impact was visible. He stood taller. He spoke with conviction, and he carried an air of authority and certainty that he hadn't had before. Soon after, he dropped out of school during his junior year and bounced from job to job, never staying long. He either quit or was fired from each one of them. Still, his spiritual fervor only grew and grew. His zeal outpaced the teachings of any church he attended. He increasingly developed an air of almost mystic spirituality that set off alarm bells in the actual leaders of the church that he attended. Their increasing wariness, sometimes subtle, sometimes overt, felt like pure rejection. To Vernon, this pastoral rejection reopened old wounds in Vernon. It echoed the abandonment and isolation of his early years. The cycle turned vicious, but what came next was worse. At 19, Vernon approached the pastor of his baptist church after service one Sunday. With visible passion, he described a vision God had given him. He was, he said, to marry the pastor's daughter. She was only 16. The pastor naturally thought very little of this vision and thought even less of the boy bringing it to him. He forbade Koresh from ever approaching his daughter and encouraged him to stop attending the church if he would be unable to control himself in response. Of course, Kreste Koresh seduced the girl and impregnated her. After the initial charm wore off, the now disillusioned girl wanted nothing to do with him. She left town and took their child with her. Vernon never even met his first child. A year later, Vernon declared himself a born again Christian and joined the southern baptist denomination officially. But almost immediately, he shifted again, this time to the more fringe seventh day Adventist church. The transition wasn't entirely his idea. His mother was a devout adventist and now had spiritual influence over him. Vernon took to the new church eagerly and quickly became a familiar face in the congregation. It was there again that he fell into yet another illicit relationship with a pastor's daughter. This time, Vernon was 20 and she was only 15. According to Koresh, he had been praying when he opened his eyes and found his bible open to Isaiah 34:16. None shall be without her mate. He took it as a direct revelation to himself, confirming his desire for the girl. He did what he'd done before. He approached the pastor and said that God wanted him to marry his daughter. Again, he was refused. Again, he was expelled in disgrace. This time, he left more than a church. He left for waco, Texas as well. There, Vernon Howell found his people. He fell in with a seventh day Adventist splinter sect known as the branch Davidians. But before we follow him to Waco, before we trace the next step of Vernon Howell's transformation into David Koresh, we have to ask a deeper who were the branch Davidians really? For that, we have to wind the clock back all the way to the autumn of 1840. In 1844, a Baptist minister named William Miller stood before the solemn faces of his congregation. A horde of people looked up at him, people who had, until that very moment, looked to him for spiritual guidance. Through their growing uncertainty, for years leading up to this day, October 22nd, to be exact, Miller had spearheaded a zealous Christian movement, firmly proclaiming that Christ would return by day's end on October 22 to usher in the millennial reign. But as the sun dipped below the horizon, as the sun faded from its pale light to blue and then to black, silence descended. Silence and sorrow, and not a small amount of embarrassment mixed in as well. Christ had not returned. From that day forward, many left Miller's circle, but some inexplicably stayed. Until his death in 1849, William Miller remained steadfast. The return of the only begotten was imminent. His remaining followers agreed. Miller's legacy eventually evolved into the Seventh Day Adventist Church, a denomination with a complex and fascinating history that, while important, lies mostly outside of this tale. Suffice it to say, the Millerite foundation of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, with its apocalyptic doomsday DNA, makes the later rise of sects and cults unsurprising. Enter Victor Hoteff. In 1929, Hoteff, a teacher at a Seventh Day Adventist school, published a series of pastoral essays under the title the Shepherd's Rod. It was a firebrand document, part theology, part doomsday call, demanding radical reform within the Seventh Day Adventist Church in light of God's impending. One of the book's central claims was that the 144,000 saints mentioned in the Book of Revelation Referred literally to 144,000 Seventh Day Adventist members who would be spared from God's coming wrath, wrath that would destroy the rest of the denomination, which Houtev likened to Babylon. The church rejected the book outright, of course, and when Hutf refused to recant his teachings, they excommunicated him. A reasonable move by any standard, to be fair. But Hutev was undeterred. In fact, he expected the rejection. It confirmed everything he already thought. After all, Babylon always rejects the call of the prophet. So he wasted no time gathering a small flock of believers and formally broke away from the Seventh Day Adventist Church. His group called themselves the Davidians, a nod to the Davidic line of the Messiah. Houtef and his group settled in Waco, Texas, living an austere life on the open plains. There they remain until Houteff's death in 1955. At that point, the leadership passed to his widow, Florence Houteff. Florence declared herself a prophetess, of course. She claimed the end of the world would arrive in 1959, and that all 144,000 saints had to gather at their Waco compound, which Victor had named Mount Carmel. Predictably, the prophecy failed. Of course, you're here in the year of our Lord 2025, listening to this podcast. So of course it failed. 1959 came and went unevent, a familiar pattern. Florence Hutef became William Miller, reincarnate. After that, Florence was denounced as a false prophet, and yet another leader rose to guide yet another iteration of the cult. Benjamin Radden, husband of Lois Radden and father of George Radden, the man with whom this episode began. Benjamin renamed the group the Branch Davidians, and thus the infamous cult took its final name. In 1978, Benjamin Rodden died. Leadership passed to his wife, Lois, who assumed the role of prophet. Then, in 1981, a young man named Vernon Howell, soon to be David Koresh, arrived at Mount Carmel. He was welcomed warmly, even after it became clear that Vernon had brought with him not just personal baggage, but prophetic ambition. The welcome remained. Only weeks after joining the Branch Davidians, Vernon claimed to have received a special revelation. He was to father a promised seed, a final prophet who would usher in a new golden age. And this child, he said, was to be conceived with none other than Lois Rawdon, the current leader of the group. Now, she was in her late 60s. Vernon was in his early 20s. Despite, or perhaps because of this jarring age gap, Lois accepted the prophecy without protest. She believed him, or claimed to. Her belief legitimized him. And just like that, one startling act of sexual deviance became a divine calling. Koresh was no longer just a young zealot. He was now a mouthpiece of God. The chosen child, of course, never came. But it didn't matter. Koresh had Lois and the people, numbed by years of shifting doctrine and escalating prophetic claims, simply floated along the river of madness. Eventually, Lois Radden died. A power struggle erupted between her son George Rawden and Koresh. That was the conflict that began this episode. So it was that the Branch Davidians, now under the spell of the occultic Koresh, took their final form in the rolling hills of Waco, Texas. And from that quiet compound, they would go on to leave a permanent mark on American history. A mark that still scars the face of the nation to this very day. Escape Master is a fast paced fantasy card game that your family game night needs. Think of speed or Dutch blitz. Mixed with deep fantasy lore, battle strategies and character building made by a Christian husband and wife duo with the goal to bring your Family together. It's portable for on the go play family friendly and wildly fun. Order now at Zilly Creative Works.com and get 10% off with code Z Cosmos. All lowercase. That's ZillyCreative Works.com with code Z Cosmos. The nighttime is crawling with dangerous creatures. Bigfoot, sleep paralysis demons, the Mothman. Now imagine what would make them even more terrifying. That's right.

[Ben]

Guns.

[Brian]

Cryptids with guns. That's where Armored Republic comes in. They equip law abiding citizens to stand against the unthinkable. Even if it's a gun wielding devil worshipping Bigfoot. From combat tested coatings to to high performance carriers, every piece of their ballistic armor and tactical gear is built to protect. Visit armoredrepublic.com or text join all caps J O I N to 88027 to get involved in the preparedness effort.

[Ben]

Brian, I got bad news the other day. I was using one of the big box soap products to wash myself and I got this weird urge to go buy a Stanley cup and and fill it with iced coffee. And it started to feel a little cold in the house. I just wanted to wrap myself up in like a heavy wool blanket. And then also I started googling ticket prices to Taylor Swift concerts.

[Brian]

Ben, what are you doing? Don't you know that these big box soap companies just jam all their soaps full of hormone disrupting chemicals? They're probably turning you into a girl.

[Ben]

Well, I know that now, but what am I supposed to do about it then?

[Brian]

You ignorant normie? All you've needed to do is go to indigosundrysoap.com and support a great Christian family business that's making all sorts of soaps that are completely free of hormone disrupting chemicals and other nasties.

[Ben]

Okay, I am literally going to indigosundrysoap.com right now. Tell me what to buy then.

[Brian]

What I would recommend doing is clicking on bundles and then selecting the best one for you. You could get the men's six pack. You could get my favorite, the clay bundle.

[Ben]

Ooh, I like the pipe and jug bundle. That seems cool. Or a men's six pack because that'll make me feel like I have something that I actually don't.

[Brian]

So true King. And you know what else I heard? Because they're such good friends of the show, Indigo Sundry Soap Company is offering 10% off your order if you just use ALL CAPS discount code. Haunted Cosmos, no spaces.

[Ben]

Wait, Brian, you're going way too fast. I didn't get all that. Is that information in the show description.

[Brian]

Ben, you ignorant normie. It's always in the show description.

[Ben]

Okay, so I'm going to go to indigosundrysoap.com I'm going to pick the men's six pack bundle, and I'm going to use code Haunted Cosmos at checkout. All caps, no spaces. And if I forgot all that, it's in the description of the show.

[Brian]

Of course, Ben. And if you just do that, then you will stop wanting to do all of those girly things and maybe you'll, I don't know, maybe want to buy a classic car to restore or something. Dignified man, Ben. I knew we were handsome, but I didn't know we were that handsome until I saw our recent Haunted Cosmos thumbnails.

[Ben]

Yeah. Your skin looks so velvety smooth.

[Brian]

I mean, it's unbelievable. Chris at New Dominion Design Company did an absolutely fantastic job, not only on those thumbnails, but on our recent book cover as well.

[Ben]

Yeah, exactly. And if you need some design work from Chris, you should go to newdominondesignco.com get started there, and he'll serve you right, man.

[Brian]

He will make you look 50% as handsome as Ben, guaranteed.

[Ben]

Welcome to this episode of Haunted Cosmos, this fifth episode of season five.

[Brian]

Fifth.

[Ben]

You multiply that together, you get 25. You add those together, you get seven. The perfect number. Numerology.

[Brian]

Whoa. Therefore, Ben is going to father the promised seed.

[Ben]

Therefore, my name is an old lady. My UFC name would be Ben. David Koresh.

[Brian]

Karen.

[Ben]

Wow. I'm kidding.

[Brian]

You know, as we go through this story, one of the things, though, that happens is that. And I know you're going to make fun of me for this, but I have an astonishing number of, like, small details where I have a lot of overlap with David Koresh.

[Ben]

Number one, I'm not a polygamy. I'm kidding.

[Brian]

Definitely not polygamy.

[Ben]

I'm kidding.

[Brian]

Whoa, dude.

[Ben]

Spoiler. I'm kidding.

[Brian]

Spoilers.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's true, actually. That is.

[Brian]

Hey, welcome back.

[Ben]

Hey. Charismatic. Yeah. Good looking. I'll say it.

[Brian]

Good looking.

[Ben]

He was a handsome guy for those 80s. He had those big glasses, good at guitar. That's another one.

[Brian]

Hey, play a clip of him right now in his band.

[Ben]

Yeah. Pause. You've also memorized large portions of scripture. I know for a fact that you've memorized the entire book of Colossians.

[Brian]

I'm a little rusty on it.

[Ben]

But you had it cold for a while.

[Brian]

It's there.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Anyway, welcome to this episode classic rock hero. Welcome back to this episode of Haunted.

[Ben]

Cosmic Ryan is not a cult leader. Yeah, we're excited about this episode. This is actually going to be a little bit out of the ordinary for us in the fact that it's not dealing with things that are all strictly paranormal. It's more just, I think, a very compelling story of human depravity and the woe of sin. And we really. We want to make sure that we tell the full story. We talk not only about how awful David Koresh was and he was awful, and, you know, the occultic stuff that he was into, which is fascinating in its own right, but also the atf. Yeah, we're gonna hear it and we're gonna start to get into that here in this next story. But before we jump the gun and go there, Brian, what do you want people to be thinking about as they hear the stories in this episode? And do you have any comments on the structure of the episode?

[Brian]

Yeah, I think in terms of structure, we wanted this episode to. We're not going to give away a bunch as we go. Maybe you know the topic, you've heard.

[Ben]

The story before, you probably know a.

[Brian]

Little bit about it. I think everyone will learn something new, even if you've heard some different parts of this story. And so we're actually going to. Normally we have a cold open and then like a hot. We call it the hot close. The hot close, where we just leave you hanging with a story. This time, we're going to tell the story like we normally do with some commentary between helping connect some threads. And then at the very end, we're actually going to give you a lot of our conclusions, takeaways, what we think you should conclude about all of the cast of characters, which at the beginning we said everybody should stand back from the story and say, can everybody lose?

[Ben]

Can they both lose?

[Brian]

And unfortunately, everybody really didn't lose, even though they should have.

[Ben]

Yes. So some people lost.

[Brian]

Many people lost.

[Ben]

But. So we are gonna try to limit the spoilers like I just gave some. But, you know, whoa. We just had Evanescence. We just had a poltergeist activity. Our guy, Amy Lee. Anyway, our guy bring.

[Brian]

Bring me back to life.

[Ben]

Yeah, wake me up. Our guy. Wake me up inside. So we're going to try to limit our talking about things before we go through the scripted portions that mention them. And the commentary is going to be pretty short in between scripted sections just to make sure you're following along with what's happening. And then, like Brian said, we'll come back after that last story and give.

[Brian]

Our conclusions right now. What I want from the cold open some of the threads that I want people just, like, put a pin in and pay attention to. I would say, notice how ordinary all of this cultic development is.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Like how it's just. We have a charismatic young man. He was experienced significant instability in his childhood. You see the way that sin affected his upbringing. Not just his own sin, but all the sin around him where he's, like, raised by this unstable, group changing, morphing cast of characters.

[Ben]

Kind of generational sin.

[Brian]

Yeah, generational sins. The fruit, like the input that he had in his life that was formative for him. None of these things are an excuse to say, like, therefore, David Koresh, Vernon is without error. It was all everybody else's fault. But you can see this sort of ordinary development. I want you to notice, I want the listeners to notice the zeal and the conviction that he had. It's a through line. The first time he told his guardian that he had experienced a vision from God. You remember, he'd been fascinated by divine revelation, goes to church. He's like, wow, God speaks to us, which is true in the scriptures. God speaks to us in nature. God speaks to his people. And he was fascinated by that. Rightly. But then he began to go down this road where I think the warping of pride on the human soul. He began to think like, and I'm special.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And I'm not special in the sense that, wow, God in his mercy chose me from eternity past for no merit of my own, to save me from my sin. And I'm a part of the church. That's incredible. But him, to begin to think, no, I'm particularly. I'm special.

[Ben]

I have a close kinship with, you know, Daniel. I have a close kinship with Christ. Like, I am. I am so like them.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And you see how for him, it was a very natural progression where he's getting these revelations from God, you know, and he's getting rejected for them by these institutional churches. And he's like, well, okay, it doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

[Brian]

Yeah. Oh, the prophets were always rejected. Exactly.

[Ben]

It means that they're wrong. And I just need to go on to the next thing until I find the people that accept the truth as it's presented in me. Vernon Howell or David Koresh.

[Brian]

And you see this through line in many cult leaders. You have a couple different flavors of cult leaders. Some of them are obvious charlatans that they literally don't believe a word they're saying. They're using. They would use any Medium. They happen to pick a religious medium because it's effective to manipulate people. But then there are cult leaders who are true believers where they've. The line between self deception and conviction is blurred to the point where they begin to believe the things that they're saying. And I think David Koresh is probably on that side of things. But you start to see these telltale signs that we should all be warned against, that our sin does this. Joseph Smith was like this as well. I don't know if he was exactly where he fell on that spectrum, if there was a demonic encounter, an angel of light that brought another gospel to him like Paul warned about, or if he was just making it all up from the beginning all the way through. I've heard cases in both directions, but you start to see a through line. Well, what did he say that God told him? Oh, you immediately see often men in these cultic situations, they're given two things from God. Total control over other people that has no limits. They can lie and break their word. And it's because God told me to break my word. They can violate clear teachings of scripture. And it's because what God spoke directly to me. He told me that doesn't apply to me. You see this with prohibitions against multiple wives and many. So total control. And the other through line is sexual sin. You see this so frequently in male cult leaders. Sexual sin. Oh, God told me he picked up the phone, he called me, and guess what I'm supposed to sleep with. Fill in the blank, young woman.

[Ben]

I get to indulge in all of my sexual desires and my appetite. However, like, obviously depraved it is. This is actually. I mean, I was thinking about this yesterday, doing. Working on another project, But First Corinthians 6:18, where Paul talks about how sexual immorality is a special kind of sin because it especially damages the one who commits it. So, you know, anger, lying, these are things that kind of show forth the bitter fruit that's already in your corrupted soul. Sexual sin does that too, but by its performance, it also doubles back and stabs the soul that committed it with an extra. With extra corruption, with extra trouble. And it leads you down this path of damnation. It's like a speedrun to hell. And you see this in scripture all the time. In Leviticus 18, you see sexual sin lumped in with idolatry as if it's a natural step. You see in the prophets the language of Israel and Judah's idolatry, especially in Ezekiel, linked with promiscuity and Adultery and things like. So this sexualization of the world and the cult leader given the liberty, quote unquote from God to commit whatever sexual inclinations he has is so closely linked with demonic deception, with false gospel, with idolatry. So keep those things in mind. What do you think? Do you think that Koresh didn't believe any of it and was just deceiving everyone else? Do you think that he started to buy into his own press and start to believe what he was saying? Or do you think that from the very beginning he actually was convinced, like, no, I am right. This is true.

[Brian]

I'm special.

[Ben]

And there was never any like moment where he suddenly began to believe it. He just always did.

[Brian]

Yeah, he was born the other through line. So there's the leader and then there are the followers. And where there are movements, there have been movements in history. The Montanists are an earlier church example of a movement that had this charismatic leaders combined with claims of special revelation from God, combined with like a high degree of interest in spiritual gifts and things like that. Like an early charismatic movement that was heretical and ultimately ended up doing weird things with like denying marriage and ascetic kind of going out and building ascetic compounds and things like that. That happened in church history. It's common though, in American Christianity. You see this in the 19th century, especially in the 20th century, movements that grew up out of the soil of American folk Christianity and took deep root out of the Great awakenings and the charismatic movement. But I mean, things like from the burned over district, we had all Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, we had a lot of cultic offshoots of Christianity form. And to me it's fascinating to try and identify in the leaders, but also in the followers, the red flags, the warning signs to say, like, keep yourself far from this.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And the followers here, you almost like look at them and go, are you guys idiots?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

I mean, the one where he said Jesus was gonna come back on October 22nd.

[Ben]

And then he just doesn't.

[Brian]

And then the line in the cold open you wrote it was like. And then most of them left, but not all of them.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

You're just like this guy in Deuteronomy 18. It literally says, if a prophet prophesies falsely like this, don't listen to him.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

In fact, kill him. Kill him. Take him outside and kill him. But the people still follow. And it's just like, what is it about the human soul that we are prone to this kind of self deception, but also we're Prone to being deceived by others.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Is it pride? Is it insecurity? What is that?

[Ben]

I have some thoughts on that that I think maybe I should leave it for the end. But I'll put a teaser so that I don't forget. Peter says in his epistle that we become partakers of the divine nature in a Christian way, not in this gnostic way, but that's through the gospel. But that means that there's this, like, lingering desire in our heart because we lost the garden to walk with God in the coolness of the day. And so I think that there's a privation of that desire to be in communion with God. That can give people delusions of grandeur. Pride can come in, deception comes in. But anyway, I'll kind of leave that there. We can put a pin in that.

[Brian]

Put a pin in that for the end. Okay, so here's the story to date in a nutshell to this point in the telling. We've got power struggles, cults forming up out of. And to be clear, I do want to say the Seventh Day Adventist Church, even today, isn't the same thing as the branch Davidians or a lot of these other. These were. So the Seventh Day Adventism is a. Is an offshoot of Christianity that is weird and has its. But there was an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of that. Pretty much. Like they branch out into these cultic little groups. But we've got this branch of Indian group that's gone through several iterations and forms until we find Vernon, who comes and renames himself David after the biblical David and Koresh after the Old Testament. Cyrus.

[Ben]

Cyrus. So Koresh was the Hebrew pronunciation of King Cyrus.

[Brian]

There you go.

[Ben]

So these two leading his people back from exile, and he's the Davidic king.

[Brian]

He's going to be the righteous branch.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Like, it's this man identifying himself in all of what are really messianic prophecies that were very literally and obviously fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ, who is, you know, true and better. David. Who is that?

[Ben]

Not Mr. Koresh.

[Brian]

Son of David, have mercy on me. A sinner, like the blind man cries out. And so it's Koresh taking upon himself delusions of messianic glory and all these things. Maybe there's some clips we could cue in from interviews with him where people are like, you know, he's the son of God. People are like, yo, he is like, that's him. They believed this about him. So we've got Koresh after this power struggle with George Rahden taking control of this Branch Davidian weird sect in Waco.

[Ben]

Texas, at Mount Carmel. And so we've kind of left you in the cold open. Koresh is in charge. He's at Mount Carmel. He is the messiah for these Branch Davidians. And so we're going to leave that there. And now we're going to go and introduce the other cast of characters that is the atf.

[Brian]

The atf.

[Ben]

So we're going to go now into introducing the other side, which is the ATF. In 1791, the United States federal government codified its first internal tax law. Among the newly taxed goods, distilled liquor. Unsurprisingly, this didn't sit well with the post revolutionary public. Fresh off of a war sparked largely by unjust British taxation, the American people were were slow to pay and quick to run off any government agent foolish enough to try collecting. In response, the federal government enlisted a new class of tax collectors. Known formally as revenue agents. These men were tasked with extracting the proper tax even in the face of resistance. And the resistance was often violent. This early conflict taught the government two key lessons. Lessons first, that the American spirit would not quietly yield to what it perceived as unjust taxation. Second, violence could be met, perhaps must be met with greater violence. Armed tax collectors willing to return fire would be the government's most effective tool for silencing rebellion. By 1862, with the Civil War in full swing, President Lincoln created the Office of Independence Internal revenue to ensure that every tax owed was collected from every citizen who enjoyed the comforts of the Union. The timing was no coincidence. War is expensive, and if the Confederacy was to be defeated, the Union needed money. Lots of it. When the war ended and the Union prevailed, the office of Internal Revenue remained. Over time, it evolved into what we now know as the Internal Revenue Service. The irs. A branch within it was tasked with overseeing taxes on alcohol and tobacco, two industries notorious for tax evasion. Revenue officers in this division were the best of the best, hardened men who, like their predecessors, weren't afraid to clash with rural rebels in defense of the federal purse. Their reputation grew to legendary proportions. These weren't mere taxmen. They were lawmen, rangers in the storm of an emerging economy. They became something like New World sheriffs of Nottingham, holding the pocketbooks of moonshiners and tobacco growers in an iron grip. Then came 1920 and the infamous Volstead Act. The Volstead act ushered in Prohibition, outlawing alcohol nationwide. One result, rum running, bootlegging and backwoods stills sprang up Overnight, local law enforcement, used to dealing with little more than theft and drunkenness, were overwhelmed. They appealed to the states, the states appealed to Washington. And the federal government already had a ready made solution. The same tax enforcers who had spent decades chasing down bootleggers. Only now, instead of collecting taxes, they were sent to collect heads. And they did. These were martial men, and to a martial man, duty is duty. These agents were the first iteration of what we now call ATF agents. Government commissioned enforcers authorized to exercise extreme brutality against those who crossed civil code lines. Not drunkenness, mind you, that was beneath them. But anyone who produced alcohol in a way that they didn't quite approve, that was their battlefield. Prohibition was repealed in 1933. And the agents returned to their usual work, taxing that which had until recently been outlawed. But the mission of total control had already taken insidious root in the American legal system. In 1934 and 1938, new federal firearms laws introduced sweeping regulations. Restrictions on weapon types and modifications, and licensing requirements for dealers. Since these laws involved federal licensing, that is revenue, it made sense to hand oversight to the same agents enforcing alcohol and tobacco taxes. And so, in 1972, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the ATF, was officially formed. It was, and still is, a militarized tax agency. A fusion of the bureaucrat and the hitman. Commissioned not only to collect revenue, but to exact blood when needed. A recipe for disaster if ever there was one. Flash Forward now to 1992. A federal agent working alongside the FBI, U.S. marshals and the ATF and trapped a man named Randy Weaver into making an illegal firearm, A short barreled shotgun. This was not a random catch, it was a setup. The agency sought Weaver out, went undercover and earned his trust. They then pressured him, pleaded with him even to cut the barrel off of his shotgun. When he finally did, they congratulated themselves for manufacturing a criminal. This kind of entrapment is a hallmark mark of federal enforcement. Shrewd as serpents, but far from innocent. After the setup, Weaver was served with a court summons, but reportedly the date was incorrect. When he failed to appear, the agencies obtained a warrant for surveillance and potential arrest. They turned their gaze toward his remote cabin in the northern tip of Idaho, A place called Ruby Ridge. During one surveillance operation at Ruby Ridge, a careless agent gave away his position. The Weaver family dog noticed first, barked and charged at the agent. The dog was joined by Randy's 14 year old son named Samuel, who carried a rifle and followed to investigate. The agent, startled, shot the dog dead right in front of the boy. Samuel stood frozen. He had just watched two unmarked strangers emerge from the woods and kill his dog. Dog on his family's property. One agent leveled his weapon at the boy and shouted commands to him. Samuel didn't hesitate. He was done thinking his life was in grave danger. What had his father taught him to do? He had taught him to act. To defend himself. To defend his home and his mother and his three sisters. So he pulled up his rifle and bravely fired at the violent intruders before turning tail to run back home. Home. And tell his dad what had happened. The agents missed the boy with their first shots. But they kept firing until they didn't. Samuel Weaver was shot in the back and killed. What followed was the siege of Ruby Ridge, a grim episode that claimed more lives in the Weaver family and revealed the full brutality of federal enforcement. The ATF was at the heart of it. Their reputation as an unaccountable and militarized agency solidified. To many Americans, they no longer resembled lawmen. They resembled something else entirely. Gestapo in American colors. They were reprimanded, but only lightly. And they suffered no real lasting consequence. In their eyes. In the ATF's eyes, justice had been served, however messy that justice may have been. After all, one must crack a few eggs to make an omelet. And they were ready, riding high on their victory at Ruby Ridge to make their power known to the next group of Americans the government deemed a threat to its precious liberal democracy.

[Brian]

Ben, what is that? Did you hear that? Is that a ghost?

[Ben]

It's just me moaning through the pain of a terrible night of sleep and a hurt.

[Brian]

Honestly, you probably just have a magnesium deficiency, which, like the fae, is a very real thing.

[Ben]

Well, how. Well, how do I get more magnesium? Do I start leaving offerings out to it or something?

[Brian]

No, you just use Humble Love's magnesium cream. It's got no weird chemicals or demonic ingredients. It's made by a husband and wife team. Totally clean, totally safe, even for kids.

[Ben]

Well, at least that doesn't sound scary.

[Brian]

It's not. Visit thehumblelifestore.com that's the humblelifestore.com and use code NCP15 for 15% off your first jar link in the description. Hey, guys, this is Ray from the band out of the Graves. It's a sad fact that most of the music that I listen to seems to fall under two categories. One, it's either made by dudes who used to claim Christ 10 years ago and no longer do, or it's made by a bunch of dudes who never claimed Christ at all. Here at New Christendom Press we say that Christians should make the best art and out of the graves is part of that mission. There's a reason we call it post mill rock and roll. So if you're looking for music to wage war on pagan art, check out out of the Graves anywhere you listen.

[Ben]

How many demons, ghosts or vampires are lurking in your investment portfolio? If you're invested in the s and P500, it's probably more than you think since it's full of companies that actively oppose your faith. Stonecrop Wealth Advisors is here to help their faith based portfolios redirect your hard earned dollars away from destructive agendas and into companies making a positive impact from on society. Get the demons out of your portfolio and invest in God's kingdom while you grow your wealth. Contact Stonecrop Wealth Advisors today by visiting StoneCropAdvisors.com Haunted Cosmos investment advisory services offered through StoneCrop Wealth Advisors LLC, a registered investment advisor with the U.S. securities and Exchange Commission.

[Brian]

Ben and I would like to just take this opportunity here as we move into the discussion of the ATF origin story to say to the government that we're very happy with our lives. No clinical depression.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

I'll say to all the listeners I'm feeling great.

[Ben]

To all the listeners like I could.

[Brian]

Not be happier if anything happens.

[Ben]

No, it didn't.

[Brian]

It wasn't self inflicted.

[Ben]

It was not. It wasn't like an exit strategy that I have for myself.

[Brian]

It's not that. It's not like we don't want to become the classic like guy criticizes FBI and then shoots himself in the head seven times.

[Ben]

This is also. And stabs himself in the back eight. This is also. I just want to take an opportunity to say everything that I just read and everything that we're about to tell you is all satire.

[Brian]

Yeah. This is not.

[Ben]

The ATF has never done anything wrong ever.

[Brian]

Ever.

[Ben]

Money, please. Money please. Yes.

[Brian]

So that said, wow.

[Ben]

The ATF literally is Mona Lisa Saperstein.

[Brian]

100%.

[Ben]

Oh, okay.

[Brian]

So basically having said that, the ATF is evil and should just be completely abolished.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

We don't need it. Like alcohol, tobacco, firearms. Sounds like a good time. Am I right kids who are listening?

[Ben]

Alcohol, Tobacco and fire in moderation. Great band.

[Brian]

Used responsibly.

[Ben]

Great band.

[Brian]

I call. Call it. It's already taken.

[Ben]

It probably is.

[Brian]

It's probably.

[Ben]

And whoever it is, if you're listening.

[Brian]

ATF band, sign the Talking Beast Records.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Speaking of my new album, how are you Guys enjoying it. Awake. The dawn.

[Ben]

So, anyway.

[Brian]

No.

[Ben]

So, okay, so Ruby Ridge is. Is kind of like the poster child for the ATF and just how they normally operate. Yeah, I was going to say the at. It's not a screw up. This is just how they do things.

[Brian]

It's what they set out to do, and they accomplish and achieve that which they set out to do.

[Ben]

Yes. Now, who was the guy who bombed the Oklahoma City federal?

[Brian]

Ted Kaczynski. No.

[Ben]

Ted Kaczynski.

[Brian]

Oh, no, no. That was the Unabomber. I'm LeVay. Timothy McVeigh.

[Ben]

Timothy McVeigh. Anton LaVey is the Church of Satan guy.

[Brian]

Timothy McVeigh.

[Ben]

So he has gone in trouble.

[Brian]

Going great growing up for writing on the calendar at home. Like, my mom kept account. My mom. Go ahead.

[Ben]

It like, she's the size of the calendar, but like a year.

[Brian]

Okay, thank you.

[Ben]

However long a year is in time, that's how many inches wide?

[Brian]

That many pounds? This many stones she weighs. Yeah. Okay. So Timothy McVeigh had his execution date. And I wrote on the calendar, like, Timothy McVeigh dies. Suck it. Or something. Like. Like something rude. And my mom was, like, furious with me.

[Ben]

My mom would have been so mad.

[Brian]

At me because it was, you know, like dancing on a guy's grave. I was like, but he killed a bunch of people anyway. Keep going.

[Ben]

I wasn't allowed to. Like, when. When I was in middle school and high school, I went to a Christian school, K through 12. And so it. It took that long for people to start saying, like, holy crap, you know?

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

My mom, she was like, if you.

[Brian]

Ever say, not okay with that, I.

[Ben]

Am going to kill you. And she was right.

[Brian]

Good for her.

[Ben]

I mean, she was right.

[Brian]

Minced oaths.

[Ben]

Good mom.

[Brian]

Good mom.

[Ben]

Good mom.

[Brian]

Your mom, Timothy McVeigh, great mom.

[Ben]

She is a great mom.

[Brian]

Timothy McVeigh, not a great mom.

[Ben]

Not a great mom. Not really a great guy, however, killed hundreds of people. Now, I'm not going to say, however, he actually was just. He's gone on record as saying that the. The Ruby Ridge incident and what we're going to talk about later that happened to Waco are the two reasons why he did the bombing.

[Brian]

Seriously?

[Ben]

Yeah. Like, that was it.

[Brian]

But in all seriousness, this is why these things are so bad and should make your blood boil as Americans is.

[Ben]

That your government's holding you hostage.

[Brian]

They're doing this on purpose. And the atf, the sniper, one of the snipers that was at Ruby Ridge, who killed his wife, who killed the guy's wife.

[Ben]

Randy Reaver's wife.

[Brian]

Yeah. Shot her while she was holding their infant.

[Ben]

Yes. He saw a shadow through the door and thought, that's Randy Weaver. Had no reason to think that I'll shoot him. Just pulled the trigger without thinking twice. And had, by the way, no remorse for it. No. No action was taken. Like, disciplinary action was taken against him.

[Brian]

Yeah, he was at. He was at Waco. He was at Waco and probably killed people there, too.

[Ben]

Actually.

[Brian]

Spoiler alert.

[Ben]

Definitely killed people there. Definitely killed people because they matched the rifling from Ruby Ridge to Waco.

[Brian]

The same gun.

[Ben]

And it was the same gun.

[Brian]

Okay, so these are the kinds of people we're dealing with at the atf. If you're working for the atf, please stop. Stop. Get a different job.

[Ben]

Get some help. Get out.

[Brian]

Get some help. The ATF is just thoroughly an unconstitutional organization. The things that they do are explicitly forbidden in the Constitution, which limits what the government can't do to you, by the way. That's the idea of the Constitution. And the Second Amendment basically says, hey, government, don't do any of this stuff. And then, like, the big bucket of this stuff, the ATF was like, what if we invented an organization, a government organization that did this stuff?

[Ben]

Literally, in a lot of ways, the federal government and the ATF is a microcosm of. That is a David Koresh mentality writ large.

[Brian]

Yes.

[Ben]

Where the government is saying, I can do no wrong.

[Brian]

Yep.

[Ben]

I can do whatever I want. Whatever we decide based on the consensus of Congress or even just the executive order of a president, it is the best thing to do. There's no questioning it. And what's more, when they start the Internal Revenue Service in the Civil War, it was a lot like property and income taxes in World War II, where it's meant to be temporary so that we can fund the war. But then, lo and behold, at the end of the war, they're like, well, we're making all this money. What if we just didn't stop?

[Brian]

What if we kept doing it, though?

[Ben]

And so you see how these things, like, they start to believe their own press. They know that they can actually do nothing wrong. And so it just snowballs into this, like, monstrous entity that is a tyrant over the people. Not like a classical tyrant. The bad kind. It is a leviathan that swallows up the people. It is an ungoliant feasting on the light of men.

[Brian]

Her vomiting and vomiting.

[Ben]

Black darkness and night.

[Brian]

So we're. We're like, I give the ATF overall, like, B minus. The importance of Ruby Ridge is. It's important to connect this because Ruby Ridge, the ATF is getting bad press.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Brian]

Everyone hates the ATF pretty much at this point in American history. So what is the ATF trying to do?

[Ben]

They want.

[Brian]

So what are they, what are they wanting with all of their heart at this moment in history?

[Ben]

The ATF wants to show. It's two things. Okay. Externally, they want to show the American people look how much we help you. That's the one. The second thing is they want to show the American people we actually did the right thing.

[Brian]

We did the right thing. In this case, you have to deal.

[Ben]

You can't be soft handed. You have to have an iron fist with these terrible people that want to turn your country into a hellscape where you can buy a sawed off shotgun. Imagine that.

[Brian]

Imagine being able to buy a shotgun with a slightly shorter barrel.

[Ben]

Yes. So that's their two big goals, is to show like we're actually really good for you and we never did anything wrong ever. Money, please.

[Brian]

ATF thread. We're gonna pick it back up at the end. Notice the entrapment and notice the manufacturing of crisis to justify their own existence.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Brian]

This is the MO of the atf. They manufacture crises so that they can swoop in as the hero and fix it. And they're looking at this part of the story where we're at in the story. Branch Davidians doing their thing. We're going to get into more of their activities and why the ATF would be interested in them in a moment. They're looking for a PR bonanza.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Brian]

They're looking for some kind of evil group that they can come in and say we're the heroes.

[Ben]

You can even. I mean another good example of this is. What's the guy's name? Charles Manson. And the whole Helter Skelter thing, which we've talked about before in MK Ultra, Charles Manson was an MKULTRA agent. Like they pumped him full of drugs, they gave him all these hallucinogens and all these visions. They brainwashed him. They did terrible things to him. Terrible things. And then he becomes a monster.

[Brian]

Yeah. Oh, no.

[Ben]

And then they're like, don't worry, we'll come save the day. They manufacture a crisis and then they swoop in as Superman to fix the crisis. It's Syndrome from the Incredibles, man.

[Brian]

There's almost like whole wars that have this shape.

[Ben]

So true.

[Brian]

In false flag incidents.

[Ben]

So.

[Brian]

But this is Hana Cosmos.

[Ben]

We want that. And really all that they want out of the War is Nephilim blood from the Middle East.

[Brian]

With that said, let's continue the story of Mount Carmel, a compound named after the famous showdown between Elijah and the prophets of baal, where we now have a cast of characters where on the one side we have cult leaders and cultists with delusions of grandeur who believe that they are prophets and chosen of God to do his will in the end of days. And on the other side we have.

[Ben]

David Koresh a government.

[Brian]

And on the other side we have a government agency that also has delusions of messianic grandeur.

[Ben]

I wonder what will happen. Yet have I set my my king.

[Brian]

Upon my holy hill of Zion. Everything secret is going to be revealed. In August of 1989, David Koresh released an infamous audio tape entitled New Light. On it, he shared what was both then and thereafter his most important revelation from God. According to Koresh, his divinely sanctioned purpose was to populate Mount Carmel with a house of David, a chosen people for God's own possession, a spring from which the 144,000 saints of Revelation would one day flow. Koresh claimed that God had granted him full liberty to procreate with as many women as necessary to fulfill this mission. An obvious blasphemy. But never underestimate the manipulative hooks men like this are able to lodge in the backs of their unfortunate followers. As a result of of this divine permission, he began forcibly separating married couples within the compound. The wives he took for himself, the husbands he consigned to lifelong celibacy. Yea, and tragically, under the spiritual spell of deception and their own broken desires, most obeyed without resistance. Perhaps anticipating the scandal that would erupt should this revelation escape the boundaries of Mount Carmel. Koresh also declared that God had charged him with building an army of heaven drawn from the current generation in Waco. He began stockpiling weapons. Rifles, assault rifles, handguns and even grenades and tear gas. The official reason? Protection for God's people in the end times. The Davidians began regular firearms training. Koresh, who had Long carried a Glock 17 on his hip, now often bore more more than that. But it wasn't the weapons themselves that alarmed outsiders. It was the reason they were being amassed. They believed the end was imminent. They believed they would have to fight and kill. And they wanted to be ready. Maybe they were wrong, maybe they weren't. Or maybe Koresh's prophecy was always meant to be self fulfilling. The cult had stepped fully into its adulthood and without knowing it, into its twilight as well. By 1992, Koresh had sold much of the land the Davidians once held. Mount Carmel was only now 71 acres with one central structure, the main compound. Koresh encouraged most members to move into that building, and they did. The chapel was converted into family housing. The fellowship hall became living quarters. Even the old water tower, silo shaped and tall, was retrofitted into apartments. Koresh was consolidating. Meanwhile, outside the compound, the people of Waco were whispering. Starting in early 1993, the Waco Tribune Herald began publishing a series of investigative articles titled the Sinful Messiah. The series opened with these now famous if you are a Branch Davidian Christ, lives on a threadbare piece of land 10 miles east of here called Mount Carmel. He has dimples, claims a ninth grade education, married his legal wife when she was 14, enjoys a beer now and then, plays a mean guitar, reportedly packs a 9 millimeter Glock and keeps an arsenal of military assault rifles and willingly admits that he is a sinner without equal. End quote Written by journalists Mark England and Darlene McCormick, the articles were the product of an alleged eight month investigation, guided largely by Mark Brault, a former cult member and former confidant of of Koresh. Bralt claimed firsthand knowledge of Koresh's rule over the Davidians, both tyrannical and free flowing, paradoxical in its extremity, he confirmed what had long been Koresh was taking the wives of other men. He was hoarding weapons, he was verbally, psychologically and sexually abusing children. He was impregnating young girls, some as young as 12. These were not just rumors, according to the Tribune. These were verified allegations from eyewitnesses, and in all likelihood, many of these things were true. Yet despite the press attention and despite growing public unease, authorities did nothing. They knew where Mount Carmel was. They knew who led it. After all, Koresh had already been charged with attempted murder once, following his shootout with George Radham. They had sworn statements from former members, but no evidence, only testimony, which, coming from cult defectors, was seen as tainted and unreliable. In desperation, some former members in Australia pooled their resources and hired a private investigator, Jeffrey Hossek, to gather evidence that law enforcement could use. He did his best, but still, nothing happened. When asked why, Hossek offered a chilling shrug. Quote at this point, I don't believe they will do anything until someone is killed. End quote. The stage was set. Koresh, whether he knew it or not, was begging for attention, the kind he claimed he neither wanted nor needed. But Waco wasn't the only one watching the FBI. And yes, the ATF had their sights trained on Mount Carmel as well. Koresh was rumored to be buying weapons, and the ATF couldn't resist poking their noses in. In Maine, 1992, the McLennan County Sheriff's Department called the ATF. On the line was Deputy Weinberg, who relayed a story from a local UPS driver. The driver had been making deliveries to the Davidians, and as he unloaded one particularly heavy box, it split open and grenades seemed to spill out. Weinberg added that the Davidians had been dealing heavily with a local firearms dealer. Again, he cited the UN UPS driver, a witness whose testimony had stood up to scrutiny. Still, it's worth remembering, buying a lot of guns does not make one a criminal. Not necessarily, but that didn't matter. For the ATF, it was enough. On June 9, 1992, they opened a formal investigation classifying it as highly sensitive. Agents were stationed in a house directly across the street from Mount Carmel. Their coverage or college students attending Baylor University. In reality, though, the men were in their 30s. None ever attended class. All drove mysterious, similar looking unregistered cars. The COVID was, in other words, as thin as tissue paper. Koresh knew he was being watched. Within days of their arrival, months later, using the affidavit of Special Agent Aguilera, the ATF attained a search warrant for the compound. The gears had been fully set in motion. The stage was now fully set for the second infamous federal siege on private property in as many years. Only this time, the blood would run like rivers down the cursed slopes of Mount Carmel.

[Ben]

Well, there you have it, folks. That's the end of the episode.

[Brian]

No, it's not.

[Ben]

That would be cruel.

[Brian]

You old so and so.

[Ben]

If we did that to you, that'd be mean. That'd be mean. No, the thing that I really want to highlight. Well, I guess two things.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Let's hear them again. Going back to the can they both lose point that we made at the beginning of the show. Koresh, bad guy. Like, absolutely bad guy. Sexual degenerate, cult leader, manipulator, deceiver. All of these terrible things.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Ben]

What he's not, though.

[Brian]

There's one thing he's not.

[Ben]

There's one thing he's not, and that is a arms dealer deserving of the full force of the law coming down on him.

[Brian]

The one thing that he actually did not do is break any firearms laws.

[Ben]

Okay?

[Brian]

He didn't even do the whole saw the barrel law for the guy after he begs him for five minutes for like a bunch of times.

[Ben]

And Koresh, by the Way, like, I don't know if this was done. Maybe he was trying to protect himself and distance himself because he knew that all the guns would bring attention. Maybe. But he actually wasn't the one who was like buying all of these guns, actually putting his name on the sheet. He was encouraging his followers to accumulate ammunition and guns. I mean, partly because they did see themselves as like the final army of God who's preparing for a doomsday. Okay, sure. But they did it legally.

[Brian]

Look, here's the thing.

[Ben]

They were.

[Brian]

He plays the guitar.

[Ben]

They had their own ffl.

[Brian]

He's the front man of a band.

[Ben]

Oh.

[Brian]

He carries a Glock 17 for years.

[Ben]

Which you did.

[Brian]

I carried a Glock 17 for years. Encourages his followers to buy guns. Now, not for the same reasons.

[Ben]

Claims he's a sinner.

[Brian]

Definitely true.

[Ben]

Coincidence.

[Brian]

100% true. Okay, but then on the. On the not similar column, there's like, cult leader.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Polygamist, like real bad guy. Like pedophile, pedophilia, all that kind of stuff.

[Ben]

Which, by the way, you know, David.

[Brian]

Koresh is a bad man.

[Ben]

Some people may. Some people may go a little too far and try to say, like, well, we don't know he was a pedophile because the government is the one that wrote those reports. He's the one that said it.

[Brian]

He, like, he married his. This is the thing. He. This man managed to skate on the thinnest of legal ice with. And I'm not talking about the guns. The guns. He was completely solid with, like above board. But he married his wife at 14. Now in Texas with parental permission, it was legal. To which this is a terrible law. This should not be the case. But in Texas at the time, at least you could marry a 14 year old if you had parental permission.

[Ben]

So in terms of legal. In terms of law of the land, it was legal. Legal, yes.

[Brian]

So they had no. No standing there, the whole, like, I'm going to convince all of these women to, you know, have polygamous or, you know, sinful relations with me and split up marriages. Sinful. Should be illegal. Yes, 100% should be illegal. Like that should be absolutely, you know, right to stoning. You get stoned, believe it or not stoned immediately.

[Ben]

Abdul Ganas.

[Brian]

I'm not talking about the Mary Jane. I'm talking about.

[Ben]

I'm talking about some boldies.

[Brian]

People throwing rocks at you till you die.

[Ben]

Some of that sweet Texas limestone, you.

[Brian]

Know, some of that. Some of that granite, some of that. Some of that Rocky Mountain. Let's go. So none of that though, while a lot of it should have been illegal, like, literally it. He didn't actually. They couldn't prove that he broke the law in almost any of these areas.

[Ben]

Right.

[Brian]

Coming back to the guns, there's a thing called an ffl. Federal Firearms License. Okay. Multiple people in my church have their ffl.

[Ben]

Have their ffl.

[Brian]

FFL is. And there are multiple types of ffl. Some of them allows you to manufacture guns. Some of them allow you to hold special types of weapons that are restricted, like machine guns, etc. Some of them simply allow you to sell guns, to transfer guns to buyers. Like, if you've ever bought a gun on the Internet, you know that you can't just have it shipped to your door. It has to be shipped to an ffl. They're like a broker, and then they follow. They keep a log on paper. There's a whole bunch of laws surrounding this. They keep a log of who bought it. They do background checks. They follow all the laws, and then they're not on an Internet registry. But if the ATF comes to the door of the FFL and says, show me your records, they have to be able to produce. Here's who bought the guns, when. Their Social Security, all this stuff.

[Ben]

Yeah. So ffl, they can be audited at any time, anytime.

[Brian]

Super normal. Again, there are several. Some of our pastors at this church are ffls for personal collecting and even businesses. Gun stores have a special type of FFL license. So in the Mount Carmel community, there was a business that had an ffl. What was the name of it?

[Ben]

It was called the Mag Bag.

[Brian]

The Magbag. Great name, great name, great name.

[Ben]

Another good name for an FFL would be Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

[Brian]

So true. The atf, it's the Spider Man. They're, like, looking at each other. So there was an ffl, and they made their living. They made a lot of money doing this. They would buy parts of guns. They would buy whole guns. Dummy grenades. These are all legal tear gas. You can buy all this stuff.

[Ben]

Totally legal.

[Brian]

Especially as an ffl. They would go to gun shows and deal guns.

[Ben]

That's how Mount Carmel sustained themselves.

[Brian]

Yeah, a lot of the money was.

[Ben]

Through dealing in firearms. So it makes sense that they were purchasing a lot of firearms. That's how they actually made the money that they needed to stay in this compound and on this commune altogether. It's a lot of money to do that, sustaining hundreds of people. Okay.

[Brian]

So even the.

[Ben]

Every single transaction that they did has been investigated.

[Brian]

Yep.

[Ben]

And it was 100% legal.

[Brian]

Yeah. Which is not unusual for an FFL. They do it the right. It's not hard. They just follow the procedure.

[Ben]

One of the things that the atf, and we'll allude to this in the. In the next story, which would normally be the hot clothes, but it won't be this episode. One of the reasons the ATF actually got a warrant for Mount Carmel is because they heard the report of a local farmer who thought he heard machine gun fire from the property. Okay, here's the thing. The farmer called the sheriff first.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Said, hey, I think I'm hearing machine guns, just continuous firing coming from Mount Carmel. The sheriff went and investigated. The Branch Davidians were like, oh yeah, you can come on in. Like, look at all that we have.

[Brian]

No, we don't.

[Ben]

It turns out there were no machine guns on the property.

[Brian]

None.

[Ben]

They were just training and they were firing really, really fast.

[Brian]

Which is especially if you have multiple.

[Ben]

People completely legal do on your land in that county. Totally legal.

[Brian]

So keeping track, all of the allegations that led to the ATF being involved, the dump, the dummy grenades in the box from the UPS driver, the alleged machine gun firing, not only was it actually all legal, the Davidians, David Koresh included, had been 100% open. Hey, come on the property. Look at our records. Investigate it. Because they knew they weren't breaking the law.

[Ben]

They had asked to be.

[Brian]

They knew we're not doing this. One of the other big things that they heard, they planted these ATF agents.

[Ben]

Okay. Yeah.

[Brian]

And they were like so obviously feds that it was, it was like the, the memes going around out of 2020 where there are these like six fit white 30 year old men in like shorts and sunglasses and fed polos.

[Ben]

And they're at the frat party, they're.

[Brian]

Like, hey fellow, hey fellow kids, fellow rioters.

[Ben]

Hey fellow right wing enjoyers.

[Brian]

Yeah, like, like white nationalism, am I right?

[Ben]

Blm?

[Brian]

And then everybody just looks at him like, we, you know that you, you know that we know that you're your FBI agents, right? So it was obvious they planted a guy in it.

[Ben]

Yeah, okay. Correct. Like the ATF had one of their agents, a guy named Rodriguez, go undercover as a Branch Davidian.

[Brian]

He was like, he's like, I'm going.

[Ben]

To infiltrate the Beast or the guy for the job. Infiltrate the Beast. To quote Tom Cruise. And so he goes in and he's like, hello, Mr. Koresh, I'd like to be a Branch Divinian immediately. David Koresh is like, this guy's a fed. He knows immediately he Knows right away, this guy's in the ATF now.

[Brian]

And everybody else in the Branch Davidians.

[Ben]

Like, everyone, like, clearly this guy. We walked him come from the house.

[Brian]

From the house. We all.

[Ben]

We watched him walk over here from that fed house.

[Brian]

College students that don't ever attend college.

[Ben]

Classes, so they know he's a fed now. They don't blow his cover.

[Brian]

No. They're like, let's see if we can convert him.

[Ben]

They don't. They don't confront him with it and be like, you're a fed. You need to stop being. No, Koresh is like, I don't care if he's a fed. Yeah, he can come in here. I literally have nothing to hide.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Ben]

I've been public with all of this stuff. All of our business dealings are above board. And, hey, maybe we'll actually convert them.

[Brian]

And they preach in the community, all their apocalyptic stuff all the time. It wasn't a secret.

[Ben]

They actually. A lot of the Branch Davidians had, like, good relationships with people in the community because they had a successful business downtown at the Mag Bag. So it, like, was good for Waco. And David Koresh frequently would be seen going around with his band that he led to various bars and restaurants in Waco playing just on normal weeknights.

[Brian]

I literally did this.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Like, I'd go play at vocal places. I'm covers the whole song.

[Ben]

Am I the. Are we the baddies?

[Brian]

Are we the baddies? He would. David Koresh would also like the Waco community. They would put on ice cream socials, invite the community in. They would, like, help people in the community. They had until the investigative journalism from some of the former members started to come out about. It was really some of the sexual weirdness, which was terrible and.

[Ben]

Yeah, absolutely terrible.

[Brian]

They didn't lead with that, though. You know, just like the Mormon church doesn't lead with, like, hey, by the way, we believe. And there's a bajillion gods. And, hey, you can become a God too. They're, like, trying to sound Christian.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

The correct. The Branch Davidians, they just wanted to sound like, hey, we're normal. Like, we're Christians. We have a weird take on the Bible, but, like, look, it's right here in Revelation.

[Ben]

We all live together, but, like, it's.

[Brian]

Just because we're tons of. Of people to join. And they had. Until these journalist articles started coming out, they had a fairly good reputation in the community. Yeah, people liked them. They would hang out with David Kesh cannot like a guy who can talk his way into this many women's.

[Ben]

Oh.

[Brian]

Under things. He was a charismatic dude.

[Ben]

Yeah, like, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's a wizard with words to the point.

[Brian]

Of like after the trial with Roden.

[Ben]

Oh yeah.

[Brian]

He invited the prosecutors for ice cream at his house and they went and.

[Ben]

They went and they had a perfectly pleasant time.

[Brian]

So David Koresh is on trial. Well, back when he was still Vernon. For attempted murder surrounding the events of a necromancy profit duel.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

That the other crazy guy's trying to set up. And he's so charismatic that by the end he's like, hey, jury members and everybody. And the prosecution, do you guys want to like, come over and have some ice cream?

[Ben]

And the judge, like, the judge was the only one that was like, I don't think this is appropriate. You know what I love about that whole thing? This actually goes to show Koresh's charisma.

[Brian]

Like the Riz.

[Ben]

He. He and the other guys who are with him. Fully admitted.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like, yeah, we went over there armed and we. And like people started shooting. So anyway, like this went down anyway. They all get acquitted. Every.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Except Koresh, who the jury is gridlocked on him, so they declare a mistrial. And even the ones that thought he was guilty, they were like, yeah, I like ice cream, let's go. And they end up being like, you know, that Koresh guy, he's not half bad.

[Brian]

You know, he's kind of a cool dude. So they. Great, great reputation in the community until the journal stuff. Then there's like division. And even, even after that though, people.

[Ben]

Like him, like the, A lot of the people in Mount Carmel had normal jobs. So they had, they had the mad bag. There was like postmen. There were people that worked at restaurants and they still, like, they still kept all their jobs and people, you know, it's not like they immediately became public enemy number one.

[Brian]

No, they were very normal. Seem. In fact, unusually for a cult, they were pretty normal. And they didn't act super culty on the front.

[Ben]

They behaved very like very well adjusted adults. They weren't always proselytizing.

[Brian]

So one of the threads at the very end I want to pick up, I don't want to forget, so I'm going to say it now, is the misunderstanding by the ATF of the apocalyptic language that they would use. So the ATF started to think that because of the way they talked about the apocalypse that they were hoping to like go on an aggressive militia campaign, like a crusade. This is what they were Trying to claim that they were doing. That's why they have all these guns. Well no, they just have a gun business. And so they were using a lot of the religious language, misunderstanding what they meant by it. Genuinely that was one of the lesser problematic parts of their whole thing. So one other thing before and maybe. And then if you have anything else before we go in, I do wanna note that another aspect that got the ATF sniffing was that people were like, well they've got all these lower receivers which for people who aren't familiar with guns, the way that the ATF, the government defines a gun is the lower receiver. That's the serialized part of a gun. It it like if you own this, even if it doesn't have a barrel attached to it or anything else, it is considered a gun. And if you own the other parts of the gun but don't own that, it's not considered a gun.

[Ben]

So you can buy an AR15 upper with a barrel with every other part you can buy, you know, every other.

[Brian]

Part you buy triggers.

[Ben]

It is not a firearm.

[Brian]

It's not a ship to your door without an ffl.

[Ben]

They will ship it to your door without an ffl. The barrel of the gun and all of it assembled, not even. But if you don't have that lower receiver, then you don't have a gun. And the Branch Davidians were buying, they were buying tons of lower receivers lowers because they ran a gun store, they.

[Brian]

Would build basically AR15s. They would build custom AR15 and they would go sell them. So anybody that's into guns at all knows that guns of this Type are unlike AK47s, AR15 style platforms. They're Legos. Like you can put them together with all sorts of different things, make an 18 inch gun into a 16 inch gun. You could make it into, you know, one that has a certain type of rail, a picatinny rail or one that has a completely customized.

[Ben]

You can make a short barrel rifle and it gets taxed extra and you can't put it, and you can't put a certain stock on it and all like all these things.

[Brian]

And here's the other part of this whole thing that's wild is that the violation, like the thing they're coming after. I think this came through in the ATF origin story. The thing they're most concerned about in this whole process isn't keeping guns away from people, it's taxing them because the laws, what they do is that all of a sudden the government, anytime you buy a suppressor, anytime you Buy a lower. Anytime you buy certain things, you have to pay your tax stamp. So you could even own machine guns if you wanted. If you got the right type of ffl, you just have to pay. At the time, it was a $200 fee tax stamp on the gun. And then it had certain restrictions on who could use it and that sort of thing. But every single thing. The alleged reason that the next story happened is because of untaxed or illegal firearms collecting. And nobody disagrees with this. Everybody agrees with this, including the government. By the way, the 1995 hearings and things that followed, they did not break a single law on that front. They did absolutely nothing. The ATF should not have ever investigated them. First and second, they invited the ATF in immediately, multiple times, and said, if you guys want to investigate these claims, come on and check out all of our stuff. Not only did they not do that, that is, it was after those invitations that the ATF rented the house, infiltrated their group and started doing all this.

[Ben]

Did what follows.

[Brian]

Crazy stuff.

[Ben]

So everything that you hear is. Is because of suspected tax evasion. No tax evasion ever happened.

[Brian]

No tax evasion, no firearm penalties. So with that.

[Ben]

Yeah, with that, let's go in and then we'll give our concluding thoughts into the last story.

[Brian]

The cult actually called or known as the Branch Davidians is an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. They broke off from the church and moved out here from.

[Ben]

The deadline to carry out the search warrant was February 28, 1993. The ATF waited until the final day to act. But this was more than a warrant to them. It wasn't operation A raid. That morning, sunny and brisk for Texas, a local news station received a leak from someone inside the atf. They scrambled a reporter to the scene. But there was one problem. The reporter didn't know where Mount Carmel actually was. Still downtown. He stopped and asked a nearby postman for directions. The postman asked why. The reporter told him. What he didn't know was that this postman was a Branch Davidian. And not just any Branch Davidian. He was one of David Koresh's brothers in law. Now, warned by the unwitting reporter, the man raced through the still chilled morning air and sprinted through the compound searching for Koresh. He found him and relayed what the reporter had said. Koresh leapt into action. His first priority, locate Robert Rodriguez, a new member and also an undercover ATF agent embedded in the group to gather evidence. Rodriguez thought his cover intact, but he was wrong. Koresh had known from the very beginning nearly from the moment the man had entered the community that he was a fet. But Koresh hadn't acted on this knowledge, not until now. He hadn't believed the ATF would raid a compound full of women and children based on hearsay about just one man. He pleaded with the startled Rodriguez, begged him to call off the raid. He pointed at the children, frightened and huddled together, urged him to do something, anything, to stop what was coming. Rodriguez was stunned. He backed away, stammering, unable to meet anyone's eyes, and then, saying virtually nothing, he slipped out the front door and ran, not to try to stop the raid, but to join his brothers in arms. The ATF was ready for war. Agents were in full combat gear. Each one wore wrist and neck tags with blood type information in case they were wounded and needed emergency transfusions. Rodriguez told his commanding officer that the Davidians knew that they were coming. It changed nothing. The order stood. The commander wanted a fight, and he got one. Inside Mount Carmel, Koresh issued orders. The able bodied men were to arm themselves and take up defensive positions. The women and children were moved to the safest rooms in the compound. At 9:45am a convoy of civilian vehicles rolled up the driveway. The doors flew open. Dozens of heavily armed ATF agents emerged and moved toward the building. Koresh stepped outside, hands raised high. He shouted at the agents to pull back. Don't aim at the house. Women and children are inside. But the agents didn't listen, shouting back at Koresh in a storm of noise and confusion. They had no intention of de escalating. Then came the first shot. Its origin is still disputed, but its effect is not. Some reports say that one of the agents panicked, spotting an armed Davidian in a window. Others say that the ATF had sent a team of agents around the back of the compound and to kill any dogs that the Davidians may have had, and that one of those agents had opened fire. Either way, one thing is certain. The ATF fired first, and then the chaos followed. Koresh stood his ground, hands still raised, until a bullet tore through one of his hands and then another bullet struck his abdomen. He stumbled back, kicked the door shut behind him, and disappeared inside the compound. The Davidians on the upper floors returned fire. It was now war, and it didn't need to be. As gunfire lit the morning day, Davidian member wayne Martin called 911. He pleaded with the operator, tell them to stop. We have a right to defend ourselves. They shot first. There are children inside. His voice cracks through the recording. Gunshots echo in the Background. But nobody listened, and nothing changed. Moments later, two Army National Guard helicopters began low passes over the compound. A few, officially they were only a distraction. But both sides on the ground reported gunfire from the helicopters to the compound. So the Davidians returned fire, hitting the aircraft and eventually forcing them to withdraw and land. The first ATF casualty was recorded not long thereafter. A man shot while circling the western side of the building. He would later die of his wounds. That same day, after nearly two hours of fighting, fierce and confusing gunfire, the ATF ran out of ammunition and withdrew. The Davidians, still very well stocked, held their fire. They even allowed the wounded to be carried off. They didn't shoot the agents removing their dead. That morning, four ATF agents were killed and 16 wounded. Five Davidians were dead and were buried on the property. What followed was a siege, a 51 day standoff, a grim dance between Koresh and the federal government. Negotiators were brought in from the FBI, including those who had led the talks at Ruby Ridge. Koresh gave interviews by phone. He debated. He preached. He negotiated himself. Eventually, a deal was struck. He would surrender. In return, he would be allowed to broadcast a message on national radio. He recorded the message and released 19 children to the FBI. But no one else followed. 98 people remained inside, 23 children and 75 adults. On the eighth day, the FBI sent a camcorder. Koresh returned it full of footage, himself wounded, being nursed by women, many of them his wives. Some were minors. He told the agents that none of the people remaining inside were hostages. They were all voluntarily remaining behind. They didn't want to. To leave. The weeks dragged on into April, and the FBI turned to psychological warfare. They blasted jet engines, funeral dirges, animal slaughter, recordings over loud speakers, all aimed right at the compound and all through the night so no one could sleep. They sent in armored vehicles, tanks and combat engineer units. They tore down fences, they raised outbuildings. They drove over the cemetery and displayed respect. And the Davidians begged them not to do that. But the ATF didn't listen. The ATF had already destroyed the compound's water supply during that initial raid on February 28th. But then on April 4th, they cut off all the remaining utilities. No power, no water. Winter nights in Texas at the time were brutal. The building grew cold. Koresh allowed some of the weakest members to leave. In fact, he told them to leave. He forced them to leave, and everyone who did was immediately arrested. From April 5th to April 13th, there was silence. When communication returned, Koresh was deep in his prophetic mode. He spoke only of the seven seals of revelation, of the glory to come of death. Both sides had reached the end of their ropes. Then, on the morning of April 19, combat engineering vehicles moved into position. They punched hole holes in the walls of the compound and inserted gas lines. Tear gas flooded the building for hours. The plan was to flush them out without further violence. But no one actually exited the building. Gas canisters were fired through windows. The FBI discovered that the Davidians had gas masks and a reinforced underground bunker they could hide in. They assumed, correctly, that most had retreated there. At one point point, an arm appeared from the compound waving a white flag. The same hand held out a sign afterwards. We want our phones fixed. The FBI replied via loudspeaker. Come out peacefully and we'll fix your phones. But of course, no one came out. Engineers on site later revealed that combat vehicles had driven directly over the underground bunker, likely collapsing. The only exit the white flag was not surrender. It was desperation, because the children's gas masks didn't fit and the bunker had been their only option. But now they couldn't escape. Then, at noon, fire broke out. Three separate blazes igniting almost simultaneously across the ground of the compound. The flames spread with alarming speed. Nine Davidians leapt from the windows. Some survived, but they were the last survivors. Fire crews arrived on scene within minutes, seeing the smoke billowing up from Mount Carmel. But the ATF held them back. You're not allowed to fight the fire. There's a danger of gunfire. And so the fire department was refused entry. Inside, the rest of the Davidians burned alive or were met with another unholy end. Later, forensic reports showed many died from suffocation and poison. Tear gas becomes toxic. Others died from gunshot wounds. Mercy killings from one member to another. David Koresh died this way, shot in the head, seemingly by his friend Steve Schneider, who then turned the gun on himself. By the end of the 51 day siege, 76 Branch Davidians were dead. Men, women, children. When the ashes cooled, the ATF raised their agency flag flag above the ruins of Mount Carmel and posed for pictures. And victory.

[Brian]

So they posed for pictures after burning dozens of children to death?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And when I say pose for pictures, I mean like ATF agents. You can look at these pictures. Maybe we could put a couple of them up here where they're. They're holding their rifles and they're like, standing there, like, with the rubble really burned. Bodies of children behind them.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Brian]

So they were gleeful. They were ecstatic. They wanted this. They engineered this situation completely. The ATF Engineered this situation and then congratulated themselves, congratulated themselves for absolutely horrific abuse of power and government overreach. But that's just one guy's opinion.

[Ben]

They saw this as an absolute win.

[Brian]

Yeah, they were like, we did it. And then the way that they talked about this in the media afterward, they played up the Branch Davidians and they really made them sound like something they weren't. So the Branch Davidians, we'll get into it again. Evil, bad, lots of horrible things. But they played it up like they were an aggressive, militarized cult that was going at any moment, if the ATF didn't swoop in and stop them to take up arms and start killing people, so try to usher in the apocalypse. I said earlier that we would talk about this, but this is one of the issues, is that these. They didn't want to understand. And so they didn't. But they definitely didn't understand the way that these apocalyptic cults worked. At least this one they weren't. When they talked about the end of the world and when they used all this rhetoric about the world being Babylon and evil and how God was going to judge them, at no point did they actually intend to communicate, nor did they communicate that they were about to do that. Yeah, they believed that God was going to bring judgment and that their role given by God against God didn't really tell them this, but was that they were supposed to last it out, be the last one standing in that compound prepared for the apocalypse while everything around them burned. And they were not about to go start shooting up Waco with assault rifles. Not at all.

[Ben]

No. There's this whole thing with the hostages too. Once the FBI got involved with the negotiations, they started to really drum up this idea that Koresh, for all of his evils, and he was an absolutely wicked man, but they also were turning him into something that he at least wasn't explicitly, which is this guy who is iron fistedly keeping all of his people there against their will.

[Brian]

Right.

[Ben]

Now, here's something that I don't want to diminish with like the children and especially the child wives thing. Okay. There is a psychological effect that that abuse has on the younger girl where she like, is held hostage in a kind of way, but more implicitly, and what I also want to point out, so I don't want to diminish the fact that like, yeah, in some way they weren't wrong to especially view some of the children, especially the female children, as hostages. I'm not not taking that away. But the point That I want to make is that the FBI did not actually believe that they were hostages. They were saying they were hostages to justify the siege that they were. That they were doing to Koresh. But they killed them.

[Brian]

Yeah, they. They.

[Ben]

They were perfectly fine to put on their hands the blood of 78 people, 23 of whom were children. And they had said days before, they're hostages. We got to get them out. We got to get them out. And then suddenly they changed their tune, and they're like, no, no, no. They're also aggressors. They deserve to die.

[Brian]

And they denied for a long time that they started the fire. Yeah, the ATF denied that they were the cause of the fire, but it is definitively. We know that it was the result of their activities, Specifically the type of tear gases they were using combined with the weapons that they were using, that caused the building to go up in flames. And then also the result of their vehicles trapping the children in the basement, basically where they had been staying to keep safe from all of the gunfire. Into the compound.

[Ben]

Into the compound. There's also circumstantial evidence with the fires. So right when the fires were lit and it really started to spread, a bunch of the Davidians, nine of them, jumped out the window. They didn't want the fires going. The other thing, too, is the mercy killings. So why would they have lit the place on fire if they weren't willing to burn to death? That would not make sense. They would rather shoot each other in the head than suffer the agony of burning to death. And it really is tragic. Like, even some of the children, a lot of the children had gunshot wounds because a lot of their parents were there with them in the bunker. They were trapped, and they were thinking, what's worse? I mean, you're gonna die. What's worse? Suffocating and burning to death or to just do this quick and, I mean, you can talk about all the ethical dilemmas and stuff all day. That's not the point of the show. The point is this is a tale of absolute woe and just where depravity gets you on both sides.

[Brian]

Yeah. And the ATF pick on them a little bit more. Just to reiterate, before going into this compound, this raid operation, what was it? Show something.

[Ben]

I can't remember.

[Brian]

Showcase or something. They had an operation name for it, whatever they'd been practicing at a recreation.

[Ben]

A model of the compound, models.

[Brian]

They put their blood types on their uniforms in case they needed transfusion. They went in expecting a gunfight and not because the evidence led them to believe that that was likely had they done it the right way, but because they were going to go in instantly, they wanted it. They wanted it.

[Ben]

This is the thing. All they had was a search warrant. It was a bench warrant from a judge that you have the right as a federal agency to go and search this property that you suspect may be doing illegal things with firearms. They never did the search, even though David Koresh multiple times invited them to do it peacefully through the months, even though the local authorities, the sheriff's office had done it. They had taken Koresh up on his offer. They had gone in, they looked through. They had looked through everything. The ATF just wanted to kill him. At the end of the day, they just wanted to kill him.

[Brian]

And they wanted to use all of their fancy militarized equipment. They wanted to use their tanks. They wanted to use their assault rifles. They wanted to use other tactical stuff. This is like one of the criticisms of the militarization of certain aspects of policing in why you should know your sheriff and you should be familiar with, you know, here in Ogden through the whole 2020 era, we stayed in touch with our sheriff. Hey, we're meeting to worship. Which was. We were actually allowed to do that under the mandates we would have anyway, but churches were exempted in our area.

[Ben]

But if I remember right, I think our sheriff also said that if a mandate comes down that says you can't gather for public worship, he would not abide by it.

[Brian]

We even asked him, if a local place says, you have to wear this certain thing on your face. And we went in and they were like, we're not going to do that. Will you arrest us for trespassing even if we peacefully leave? And he was like, no, I won't. So what happens when you bring in a federal law enforcement agency that's not rooted in the community? It's not the people. It's not the sheriff who lives there and knows the people and is going to have to look them in the eye the next week. Yeah, these militarized police agencies unelected. Unelected authorities without accountability. And the aftermath of this event and Ruby Ridge shows that they are unaccountable.

[Ben]

Yeah, they.

[Brian]

Not one thing happened to the ATF or the FBI really, as a result of these disasters and fiascos, except the.

[Ben]

Opposite of what should have happened. Like, some of the ATF agents died, and they were lauded as heroes, martyrs for the righteous cause. Now, I'm not. I don't want to disrespect those dead atf agents, I'm sure a lot of them had no clue what was going on, what was really going on. And honestly are like, not nearly as morally culpable as the ATF as a unit, in the leaders, but nonetheless, like, what does it tell you about that agency that they look at this and they say, not only did we win, we. We were the victims.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Ben]

That is just twisted to me.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Now, again, like, Koresh is not a good guy. He was a sinner. He was evil. The Branch Davidians were wildly deceived, but they weren't guilty of a capital crime that was that. They deserved to be punished without any trial and due process under Texas law.

[Brian]

Certainly not. They didn't commit the crimes that they.

[Ben]

Were accused of, that they were accused of.

[Brian]

They fired from first. They rolled in with a huge show of force. Helicopters, military vehicles.

[Ben]

Everybody swatted out.

[Brian]

Yeah. And they're like, what? And guy comes out and he says, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then they shoot first.

[Ben]

Yep.

[Brian]

So.

[Ben]

And then they. They put ladders up during that first, like, two hour raid and. And battle, really, they. The ATF agents put ladders up on the house. They started climbing it and busting into the windows. And so what, like, what are you gonna. What are you supposed to do? They're already firing at you from outside.

[Brian]

David Kresh is shot. Unarmed.

[Ben]

Yes, unarmed. And now they're trying to break into your window, fully kitted out, you know, or you have every reason to believe that they're coming in to execute you. What are you supposed to do? Just sit there and die?

[Brian]

Yeah. It's like, this is why the second amendment existed in the first place, to.

[Ben]

Protect against the tyranny of the government.

[Brian]

So we have this. Satan was pleased basically, very happy with.

[Ben]

What happened in Waco.

[Brian]

David Koresh as well, of course, when he went back on his word, because God told him after he released the. They released the tape, and then he said, oh, God changed his mind. I'm not supposed to come out. He could have ended this without everybody dying. Absolutely. He could have ended it. He could have not been an evil satanic cult leader who was either deceived by demons or a huge charlatan who was using his alleged divine revelations as a cover to sleep with as many people as. As he wanted and manipulate and control people as an absolute God of his community. He certainly could have not done that, and then none of this would have happened either. So for me, the takeaways on all sides are on the spiritual side that take seriously the warnings about things like the qualifications of leaders, the warning against deception by false teachers, of having your ears tickled, the absolute stark warnings that scripture gives on. These things aren't an accident. These are commonplace in history. Anybody who's known someone who got involved in legitimate cults knows how powerful the manipulation is and how much damage it can cause.

[Ben]

And it's like any other sin. It starts small. It's one little step, one little compromise, one little give here. And then if you keep, if you don't repent of that, like, if you're willing to just turn off the conscience and ignore the holy spirit, you'll find yourself in a totally foreign place. You'll be living in an alien world, and you'll be an alien yourself. And it just becomes harder and harder and harder to repent of all these things. I see in David Kressh and the ATF as a whole, two entities that are guilty of the same exact things.

[Brian]

Mirror image sins.

[Ben]

Mirror image sins. The difference is that the ATF happened to be the one to kill everyone else on the opposing side. But like Koresh, I think Koresh was fully convinced from the very beginning, from a young age, like, not only am I special in the sense that, you know, everyone's special, right? No, I am chosen. I am the messiah. God speaks to me. He corrects himself through me, you know, And I think that he fully believed that his whole life. And I think that the ATF has fully believed for the entirety of their existence that they are God's gift to the American people. And so all of the blood that they spill is fully justified for all of the good that they think that they do. And I think that Koresh would have probably said the same thing if he was still alive today about himself.

[Brian]

Well, that's it. That's the story of Waco, guys. Thanks for listening. And we just want to invite you, if you like the show, if you like what we do here at Haunted Cosmos, jump on our supporter channel. There's a link in the description for that to become a monthly patron and supporter of the show. And if you jump on there, you'll get access to our special weekly show called the dusty tome just for supporters. And then several of the tiers, also the middle tier and the higher tier, you can actually right now stream, watch or listen in on ad free the entire season. So the whole thing is up. The next episodes that aren't publicly released are already sitting there waiting for you. And all of the tiers get all the episodes ad free. So if you don't like our ads, which I don't know what's wrong with you if you don't. Because they're art, pure art. They're like the Sistine chapter. They belong in the Louvre of advertisement. But if you are in a hurry, let's give you the B of the D, let's give you the benefit of the doubt, then you can sign up and get them ad free there. We want to say thank you to our great sponsors, Mount Athos, all of our other great sponsors that have supported the show and say you know who you are.

[Ben]

Absolutely.

[Brian]

We'll see you next time on Haunted Cosmos. Sam.