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- [00:01]
Sponsor Announcer
This podcast is sponsored by Rocket. The American dream of homeownership feels further and further out of reach. For many people. Homeownership feels impossible. But Rocket is on a mission to help everyone get home. They've got a range of products and services designed to turn renters into owners. From lowering down payments to as little as 1% to helping turn your rent check into a forever home. Find out more@rocket.com Rocket Own the Dream.
- [00:33]
Lowe's Announcer
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- [01:08]
Craig Mazin
Slowly. What? When we kill him.
- [01:20]
Sponsor Announcer
We kill him slowly.
- [01:25]
Troy Baker
Welcome to the official podcast for the HBO original series the Last of Us. Season two is here. And suffice to say, I'm very excited to be back as your host. I'm Troy Baker and I played Joel in the Last of Us Video games. But joining me, as always, are the creators, the writers, executive producers and showrunners of the HBO series. Craig Mazin.
- [01:46]
Craig Mazin
Hello.
- [01:46]
Troy Baker
And Neil Druckmann.
- [01:48]
Neil Druckmann
Hi.
- [01:49]
Troy Baker
So we're gonna continue what we did for season one. Each week we'll break down the latest episode of the Last of Us. Getting into the what, why and how, unpacking, and no doubt processing all of it. So I want to warn listeners, these will be very spoiler heavy conversations. So please, by all means, watch the episode first and then you can come back and join us for the rest of the conversation. So season one came out now over two years ago. Now you go into season two and you have the burden of that success on here.
- [02:30]
Craig Mazin
Yeah.
- [02:30]
Troy Baker
How do you meet that challenge?
- [02:32]
Craig Mazin
Well, I mean, I will say season one, I'm just gonna be fully transparent. I don't do well with a lot of attention. I think the rough thing for me is that if something fails, I feel really, really bad. And if something succeeds the way the first season did, I just feel really, really scared. I don't know why. There was something about the amount of attention and the size of the discussion and the size of the audience, which was way beyond what we expected. There's a general ballpark that you get from hbo. We'd love to hit this number and we shot way past that number.
- [03:12]
Troy Baker
It became a cultural event.
- [03:14]
Craig Mazin
And that's where I got scared for.
- [03:17]
Troy Baker
You, Neil, going into this. Obviously, when the game came out, it was a remarkable release. Was there ever a part of you that said, maybe I can change some things or maybe I've got a second chance to do this again?
- [03:33]
Neil Druckmann
I had weird fears, which was like, I wanted to work on this and I knew we would change certain things. I was just very curious how would a TV audience would react? Is it going to be a different reaction? So there's just like a curiosity of, like, what's going to happen here. So that's why I really kind of like relied on Craig in those instances to just say what's best for the show. Like really kind of let's hold each other accountable to do what's best for the show.
- [03:58]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, we care about the audience. We want them to love it. But the specific criticisms or praise, ultimately you have to put a shield up or else you'll drown in it.
- [04:09]
Troy Baker
For people who are familiar with the games or familiar with the story, if season one taught us anything, it was, you don't know what's coming. I love the perspective that sitting down watching this first episode, I have no idea what's going to happen. What was the baseline of, you must know. These are the things that right off the bat for this season that we want to get across from the very, very jump.
- [04:33]
Craig Mazin
For me, the most important thing was to establish a new reality for Joel and Ellie. It's been five years. She is older, she is different, she is more independent. And Joel is older too, and has settled into this interesting kind of mentorship life. He's become a pillar of this community that he, you know, initially was sort of at odds with. And the two of them are operating in a world of safety and security and confidence. Jackson is safe. The way that they're interacting with infected is different. They feel more like hunters now than victims or people who are quarry. So that. And introducing the new realities for Tommy and Maria and their child who is in Maria's belly in season one. And here he is running around as a five year old and meeting new people that are incredibly important to the story. Dina and Jesse. And of course, there is that moment with this absolutely new character named Abby and all the people she's with. All those things are important to get across here because as anybody that watches, the Last of us knows, whatever reality and whatever certainty we create, we're probably going to kick it around a bit before you know it.
- [05:57]
Troy Baker
All right? Let's get into episode one of season two, which you, Craig, wrote and directed, titled Future Days. Future Days is a song by Pearl Jen, that in the game, Joel plays for Ellie. And we should say that some astute observers may have an issue with it.
- [06:18]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. So let's just go ahead and rip the scab off on what I think is gonna be a lot of commentary. Future Days, that song didn't exist in 2003 when the world ended and Neil and I had, you know, a solid conversation and arrived at the following conclusion. We didn't give a shit. Because it is an important song to the story, and thematically, it's incredibly important because Joel is trying to figure out what his future is with Ellie, and Ellie is trying to figure out what her future is as herself, not as someone's kid, and where they're heading into the future, which we accelerate them into. Five years later, they have arrived at Future Days. It is, in fact, the past that is the anchor that is still holding them back.
- [07:16]
Ellie
Swear to me that everything you said about the fireflies is true.
- [07:24]
Joel
I swear.
- [07:32]
Ellie
Okay.
- [07:35]
Troy Baker
Let'S talk about why you chose to end season one the way you did and why we're starting at this point.
- [07:42]
Neil Druckmann
You know, when we finished season one, one of our livelier debates was, what is the final shot? Yeah, do we end it just like the game? You know, when Ellie says, okay, and we cut the black, or do we go to this wider shot where we see them walk off towards Jackson and we actually even see Joel's reaction to that. Okay. Which didn't happen in the game. We were kind of batting this back and forth. And, you know, our process is always very open. Just because something was done in the game and it was successful in the game doesn't mean it's the best choice for the show, best choice for these characters. So we will try multiple edits. Our philosophy, too. When we shoot stuff, we try a lot of different things, get a lot of coverage, because we don't quite know our work when we're in the editing room. So we just want to have as many of those pieces as possible to play with. And ultimately, the conclusion we came to is like, there was something ending about the unresolved note when Ali says, okay, that worked best for season one in the same way that it worked for the game. But now we had this footage, we could literally pick it up right from then and there and see Joel's reaction and kind of feel this tension. Because, again, that conversation is so important for everything that's about to Come. It felt appropriate to start there.
- [08:55]
Craig Mazin
And the bait on the hook for me was Joel's reaction, which was new because we never got to see it in the game. And when she says, okay, like that, what is he supposed to take from that? And I think it's a fantastic choice that Pedro makes there, which is. I'm pretty sure that's bad. I'm gonna choose to take it at face value anyway, because that's what's best for me, and it's fantastic. But I think Neil is absolutely right. Just that finality of ending with Ellie's okay, especially the way Bella delivered, that is just incredible. But then we had a chance to come back and remind people of this moment, the key moment that generates everything from this point forward, and then to give him that little bit more to see what Joel chooses to do there. And you can already see in that choice the problem. The problem is he's going to pretend for as long as he can that she doesn't know, no matter what he gets back from her.
- [10:00]
Troy Baker
So let's talk about Abby for a little bit.
- [10:05]
Craig Mazin
He'll help me find him. Yes, I'll help you find him, and.
- [10:13]
Joel
We'Ll help you kill him.
- [10:16]
Troy Baker
Who is this character, and what can we expect from her in this season?
- [10:21]
Craig Mazin
Well, the character is pretty much who the character is in the game. She is, as we find out, a firefly. She lives in Salt Lake City. We know that because we see the giraffes. They're burying people, and we don't know who this one cross is that she walks over to and drapes a firefly pendant over. But it's clearly somebody that mattered deeply to her. We know from this scene that she has a different relationship with Owen than with the others. We know that she is angry and she doesn't care about circumstances. She doesn't want to hear what you can't do or why you can't do it. She is already fixated on one thing. No matter what, she wants to kill Joel for what he's done. And we know what he's done. We saw it. And you can feel from the very beginning that even the person that she's closest with here, Owen, they're not like her. They've all been through this. But there's something different about her. She is operating in a place that is much more intense than them.
- [11:37]
Troy Baker
Abby was a very crucial character to introduce in the game. And obviously, Neil, you were very diligent in how you wanted to introduce that character, how she was being presented in the story, what Was that conversation like, between you going, hey, here's what we did, here's what we found worked, but we have an opportunity to explore something else.
- [11:57]
Neil Druckmann
The fact that Abby is a Firefly is something we withheld in the game for a very, very long time. And it comes in much later in the story. But here we just decided to reveal it very early and to just lean into it and show who she is, because, again, it wasn't a huge surprise. So those are the kinds of conversations we're having about where should certain things go and then where should certain things be expanded? What else can we learn about these characters? Is there any opportunities to dig deeper and find out more of who they are, what makes them tick?
- [12:28]
Craig Mazin
Abby and how we introduce her and the context we put her in in this season, right off the bat, it's the first new scene really that we see after Joel and Ellie walk towards Jackson is something that we talked about a lot. And part of it was the way she's introduced in the game is through you playing her. And that experience is why the way I think you guys structured the information release worked so well. Because you are somebody and it's a mystery. But who am I? Why am I here? What do I want and why do I want it? But you're occupying her. We don't do that on the show. And so it felt like, okay, maybe the information delivery system should be different here because we don't have that opportunity to be a person.
- [13:19]
Neil Druckmann
When you're playing as the character, you have this immediate empathy towards them. Like, you don't have to have as much quote, unquote writing or drama or shows much relationships. That is more of, like, the fuel for how the game moves forward. We don't have that. So then we have to rely on other things.
- [13:36]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, that's a great point.
- [13:37]
Troy Baker
Let's talk about Caitlyn Deaver. What drew you to Caitlyn as the choice for Abby?
- [13:43]
Neil Druckmann
Caitlyn was involved in the world of the Last of Us, going back many years when it was going to be a movie. Ended up not happening, but she was in the running to play Ellie. And then, you know, when we made the show in season one, she kind of aged out of that role, so it wasn't really a consideration. But then when we thought about the season and her name came up and we started discussing it, Caitlyn is so talented and I had the privilege of working with her a little bit on Uncharted 4 video game. It was very easy to just close your eyes and see her as this character and see that. Cause this character, going back to what Craig was saying earlier, he just has this drive, this passion, this intensity, this intense pursuit of justice and has to be like extremely vulnerable at the same time and have all these other facets that we haven't even seen yet. It didn't take much imagination to view her in that role.
- [14:38]
Troy Baker
Not to draw too much of a comparison, but Abby is quite different in the game physically. She's tall, large, imposing. She works out. You could say when we see her, she's not that. So let's talk about that decision.
- [14:55]
Craig Mazin
Well, we didn't feel like we were obliged to fully represent the same body shape that Abby has. There is a power that Abby gives you in the game as you're playing her. And as Neil said, something that was so interesting to me as a game designer that I didn't really think about much as a player, I just experienced it, is that when you're playing somebody and you then shift over and play somebody else, they need to have different methods of different physicality. Different physicality. Different ways to attack, different ways you have to. So when you're Joel, you feel one way. When you're Ellie, you feel different and you play differently. You're more scared because you're smaller and you don't quite have the jolness about you. And it was smart to make Abby different in that playstyle than, say, Ellie. But again, we don't have gameplay. So to me, the key was to find a certain ferocity and a relentlessness. And I think you'll see some of that as the season goes on and certainly as we go forward with the show.
- [16:01]
Sponsor Announcer
This podcast is sponsored by Rocket. The American dream of homeownership feels further and further out of reach. For many people, homeownership feels impossible. But Rocket is on a mission to help everyone get home. They've got a range of products and services designed to turn renters into owners. From lowering down payments to as little as 1% to helping turn your rent check into a forever home. Find out more@rocket.com Rocket Own the Dream.
- [16:33]
Chevy Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Chevy Silverado. When it's time for you to ditch the blacktop and head off road, do it in a truck that says no. No to nothing. The Chevy Silverado Trail Boss. Get the rugged capability of its Z71 suspension and 2 inch factory lift, plus impressive torque and towing capacity thanks to an available Duramax 3 liter turbo diesel engine. Where other trucks call it quits, you'll just be getting started. Visit chevy.com to learn more.
- [17:00]
Troy Baker
McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one of six collectibles and your choice of a Big Mac or 10 piece McNuggets with spicy nether Flame sauce. Now available with a Minecraft movie meal.
- [17:12]
Craig Mazin
I participate in McDonald's for a limited time.
- [17:14]
Troy Baker
A Minecraft movie only in theaters. Let's talk about where we find Ellie.
- [17:18]
Craig Mazin
Yeah.
- [17:21]
Ellie
Boom, motherfucker.
- [17:23]
Dina
First of all, okay means stop.
- [17:25]
Ellie
Sorry, I was in the moment.
- [17:27]
Dina
Second, you can't. Boom, motherfucker. People who land a first hit on you square in the face, by the way.
- [17:32]
Ellie
Well, I can obviously take a punch, so who cares? Fucking hard. By the way, I pulled it. You pulled it?
- [17:38]
Dina
Yeah, he pulled it.
- [17:39]
Ellie
Why?
- [17:40]
Dina
Because I told him to.
- [17:41]
Craig Mazin
Why?
- [17:42]
Dina
Otherwise he would have knocked you out. And I don't want to have to explain that to Joel.
- [17:49]
Ellie
Don't do that again.
- [17:51]
Troy Baker
This fight that we see where she ends with a bloody nose but a smile on her face, she says something very important at the end there.
- [17:59]
Craig Mazin
The look on Ellie's face where all that kind of fun. I'm one of these guys doing this stuff, just gone. I'm not Joel's girl. And it was important for us to show this fight because we wanted to explore how somebody who is Bella's size fights. Because Bella has aged, but she's not getting taller and the world is full of people that are bigger than her. And so we did a lot of research and looking around and it seemed like jiu jitsu was the way to go. And I watch videos of small people taking down big people, and it's kind of incredible. And they do it the way she did it there, and that's what they're training her to do. And I think it's amazing, the idea that Ellie's like, I know my size. Teach me how to do violence to people that are bigger than me. Because I want to be effective in this world on my own. I don't want somebody coming to save me every time I want to be able to take these people down. And we also get a hint that she's not necessarily fully in control of it, because when she's in that moment and she's got his arm and he's tapping out, she's somewhere else.
- [19:10]
Neil Druckmann
Her approach to violence is different from Joel's, where Joel is like, he's good at it, but he doesn't like it. He doesn't get any joy out of it. It's a very pragmatic solution to a horrible world. There's a thrill that Ellie has, and she seeks it. It's why she wants to go on patrols. It's why she. Like, she could have a different job at Jackson, but she's purposefully going after putting herself in situations where she will have to use violence. Like, it's almost like there's something that's missing from her life if she doesn't have it.
- [19:43]
Craig Mazin
It's fascinating to see how Ellie finds her purpose in fighting. That's where she feels effective. That's where she feels like she's her own person. And I think a lot of this is about separation. And when you separate from the adult that has taken care of you and raised you, you want to figure out how you're an adult and adults are effective at things. Ellie is not like Joel. Joel builds. Ellie doesn't build stuff. She doesn't do construction. But Ellie can do violence, and she does it right here. And then in the next scene, we see her, she's blowing the head off a clicker, as Tommy teaches her. And her reaction when that head explodes is. It's a delight because those things are dangerous animals. They're free to kill.
- [20:35]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, it's another way to get control in this unpredictable world. Yeah, if you're more powerful. And again, this violence, this martial arts that she's studying, it allows her to have more power in this world and thereby have more control over her life.
- [20:50]
Troy Baker
Another new character is, oddly enough, Jackson. Yeah, this is a character in the show. Like, it's a fully functioning city. And we see the community that's built up from where we were.
- [21:03]
Craig Mazin
We talk a lot about community. That word is gonna come up more than a few times, because that is what Jackson is. It is the only community that I can think of that we've shown for certainly is. That's functional. It may be the only functional community at all in the world. We don't know, because beyond the borders of where we've traveled is a bit invisible to us. But Jackson is functioning. It is taking in refugees. Joel and Tommy are working on renovating some of the houses that weren't livable so that they can house more people, so they can grow. This is what humans do in success. This is what was going on back in the hunter gatherer days. They began a little small thing becomes London one day. And that's what's happening here. There is a power to that. There is a security to that. There is also a danger that you become a little complacent. You think you've figured it out. It's been five years. You are bringing the best of what we are back. Arts and joy and peace and safety and harmony. But don't overestimate your place in this world.
- [22:20]
Neil Druckmann
I think last season we talked about how wide is humanity? You know, in season one, a lot of it is just Joel and Ellie.
- [22:27]
Troy Baker
Right.
- [22:27]
Neil Druckmann
And the fear Joel had and taken Ellie on is that, oh, no, if I have these same feelings I've had before in my past, I have something to lose. And Jackson is this really special place. And, you know, as Craig is saying, maybe the only place that is this special, now there's something to lose.
- [22:45]
Troy Baker
There's also something to fight for.
- [22:47]
Craig Mazin
Exactly.
- [22:48]
Troy Baker
Let's talk about Dina, wonderfully played by Isabella Merced.
- [22:53]
Ellie
Hey.
- [22:55]
Joel
Hey, kiddo. Something go wrong out there?
- [23:00]
Ellie
Well, the main lines are clay all cracked as shit in full of roots. We're not sure what we're supposed to do, and our foreman isn't.
- [23:08]
Troy Baker
Oh, I love that you made this choice. And I feel it was a very careful misdirect of hey, kiddo. Hey, kiddo, you son of a bitch. We hear the hey, kiddo, and everybody at this point knows who he should be talking about. And instead we look up and we see another girl. Yeah, Dina. Let's talk about Dina.
- [23:30]
Neil Druckmann
You know, in the game, Dina talks about her relationship with Joel, but we actually never see it. So this was one of those changes we decided to make very early on is like, wanting to show that relationship. And through that relationship, we get to see how both of these characters feel about Ellie and that Joel is good at a few things, whether he knows it or not. He's good at surviving and killing. He's good at fixing things and building things, which is maybe where he's most comfortable. But he's a good parent, like, with some dark elements mixed in there, sure. But he can't help but, like, mentor this girl that is drawn to him because he is this figure in this community. But he probably has an ulterior motive, which is like, Ellie won't talk to him. So he could find out how Ellie is doing through this other character who has become a really good friend to Ellie.
- [24:21]
Craig Mazin
It was important, I think, to get across that Joel was struggling with why it's easy for anyone to go, oh, I'll tell you why. Because look at how she ended season one. You swore, and she said okay, and she doesn't seem like she believes him. It was important to see that Joel hasn't kind of gotten there yet. And that, in fact, this is relatively new. This is a new development. Now we're five years later, that means things must have been going okay for a while, and now they're not. And he's struggling with that. It is also important in this scene to introduce Dina because she is an incredibly important character to this story and what happens and what goes forward. And she is so different from Ellie and Joel. I think she represents a much more positive, healthy way to be. She seems at least healthier and more positive. She seems like a force for good. She's wild, she loves life.
- [25:26]
Neil Druckmann
She's outgoing. She's confident.
- [25:28]
Troy Baker
There was something that I didn't realize was missing in Ellie until I saw it in Dina, and that's that spark, that spunk, that pluckiness that I'll go take on anything.
- [25:37]
Craig Mazin
Dina loves people. Ellie and Joel loved each other, and that was the size of their community.
- [25:46]
Troy Baker
Right.
- [25:47]
Craig Mazin
And you feel like Dina is this ray of sunshine. And Isabellemer said, well, we asked her to do so many different things in this season, and we will watch as that happens. But one of the things that I love about how she portrays Dina here in this first episode is that you can feel the warmth radiating off of her. You want to be her friend because she's so funny and on top of stuff.
- [26:15]
Neil Druckmann
She's charming.
- [26:16]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, she's charming. She's really, really charming. You know what I love? Just side note.
- [26:22]
Troy Baker
Yeah.
- [26:22]
Craig Mazin
Again, Dina Isabella is so. Every time she's on screen, I just start smiling automatically. And when she comes to pick up Ellie to do the patrol, she's, like, trying to get them back together, you know?
- [26:38]
Ellie
Better. Yeah, better. She with all that hardware like Curtis and Viper. You know those movies Joel likes? Yeah, I know. I was actually gonna maybe watch them tomorrow night with him, if you wanna join.
- [26:53]
Craig Mazin
It's sort of sweet and lovely and doesn't work. And she just sort of goes, okay, well, tried it. I love watching those two together, Bella and Isabella.
- [27:04]
Neil Druckmann
Like, it's one of those gambles, you know, when we first cast her, like, you're hoping, you're praying the chemistry will be there, they'll get along. And so to see it come to fruition like that.
- [27:17]
Craig Mazin
The first day of shooting was the scene where she comes to pick her up to go on patrol. And I was, you know, five seconds into take one, and I we're gonna be fine.
- [27:28]
Troy Baker
We're gonna be okay.
- [27:29]
Craig Mazin
We're gonna be more than fine. These two, like, amazing.
- [27:32]
Troy Baker
Another character we get to see is the character of Gail, played Brilliantly by Catherine O'Hara.
- [27:40]
Joel
Didn't know psychiatrists were allowed to drink in these Things.
- [27:45]
Tommy
Psychotherapist psychiatrists are the pill ones. And no, we're not allowed to drink in these things, but I woke up this morning feeling sad.
- [27:54]
Craig Mazin
I am a big believer in the Vince Gilligan theory that comic actors make the best dramatic actors. So when Vince makes Breaking Bad, he casts Bryan Cranston, sitcom dad. Guess what, incredible actor. There is a depth of humanity to funny people that is often discounted or overlooked. And Catherine O'Hara has done dramatic roles before. Not too many. Mostly comedic roles because she's so brilliantly funny. And she's pretty funny in this one too. But there is a depth and soul to her that is so obvious to me at least, and informs why she's funny. She is iconic and always comes across as knowing.
- [28:40]
Neil Druckmann
If I may say one other thing about Catherine O'Hara, this is the thing the viewer will never see. But it's like when we say cut, and she's just there hanging out. She's kind and generous and is just there to play and try things and just throw herself at this role.
- [28:56]
Tommy
What is this, our fifth session? Are you just gonna keep grouching on like this every time?
- [29:02]
Joel
Aren't you supposed to be validating me or something?
- [29:05]
Tommy
Oh, yeah, actually I am, but I'm not gonna do it anymore.
- [29:11]
Craig Mazin
This was a scene that actually has its roots in season one. I wrote a version of this for the first episode where we see Joel talking to a therapist, and it didn't fit in. It also felt a little bit off track from getting to Ellie. It was just delaying getting to Ellie, which was really important to us. But it was good, actually. It was a good thing that we didn't do in season one because there's more subtext now to discuss. And I love characters that lie. I think that is one of the basic human actions. We don't give it enough credit because we do it all the time. The idea of lying or obscuring or holding back or concealing, even in a session with a therapist, a job that would be extraordinarily useful in a barter system in the post apocalypse where everyone has suffered, everyone has been traumatized. And Gail is not just a therapist. She's good, she's really smart. And she's also brave because she's doing something in the scene that is scary. In part because she needs to, because she herself has been traumatized, and in part because she needs to demonstrate by example.
- [30:35]
Tommy
Say the thing you're afraid to say. I can help you say it out loud. No matter what it is, no matter how bad I promise I will help. Did you do something to her? Did you hurt her?
- [31:06]
Craig Mazin
No. No.
- [31:08]
Tommy
Then what? What did you do?
- [31:13]
Craig Mazin
Joel's emotions are connected to Ellie. What he is struggling with is the fact that she's pulling away from him. And he doesn't, or at least he claims to not know why. And we can see this. I mean, part of this episode is a little bit of a mystery. What is going on with the two of them. Exactly. Because it's bad. And he's struggling with it. He's asking Dina. He's asking his therapist. What he's terrified of is that the rift is because she knows or has figured out what he did. But when you see him stand up and say, I saved her, what's clear is he has no regrets about what he did.
- [31:55]
Troy Baker
There's that one very tenuous moment where Gail has to ask the question that any therapist or really the burning question is, did you hurt her?
- [32:04]
Craig Mazin
Right.
- [32:05]
Troy Baker
And the look that Pedro gives is such a beautiful, like, no. Like, I can't even imagine. And the fact that you would even have to ask me that, there's such a wound there, and that's not what it is. Can you please say it for me? Because I can't say it. And I love that Gil puts his feet to the fire and says, you have to be the one that says it.
- [32:24]
Craig Mazin
Pedro has these almost invisible changes and choices that because they're almost invisible, they're extraordinarily visible. The way he goes from guilt to resolution in a moment. The way he goes from, I'm trapped and I'm like a little child who's has to face up to what I've done to I am indomitable and I'm leaving is remarkable. And sometimes when I'm directing and I have a situation like that where I've just got two great actors facing off like a. It's like an action scene, as far as I'm concerned.
- [33:09]
Troy Baker
Emotional action scene.
- [33:10]
Craig Mazin
An emotional action scene. I always say it's like driving a Ferrari. I mean, I come in there and I mostly just clarify some subtext things that might, you know, not popped out, and then I get the hell out of the way. Yeah.
- [33:23]
Neil Druckmann
And I think the thread you're starting to see here between, like, Abby and her reaction to Joel, Ellie and her reaction to Joel, and Gail and her reaction to Joel is that there are certain actions that have consequences, and we're starting to feel the ripple effects of those actions.
- [33:42]
Joel
Just come to see. If you were going to that thing tonight, it'd be good to show your face?
- [33:47]
Ellie
I don't know. Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
- [33:52]
Joel
You been playing much.
- [33:55]
Ellie
Enough? Yeah.
- [34:05]
Joel
Strings are shot. Well, we'll put some new ones on for you.
- [34:08]
Ellie
Oh, you don't have to do that.
- [34:09]
Joel
You get it back tomorrow.
- [34:15]
Craig Mazin
Things have happened between Joel and Ellie. Walking down the mountain towards Jackson at the end of season one. And where we are now, a lot of things have happened. There are ghosts of mistakes in history past that we are going to unfold and we are going to discover. But where we are here is heartbreaking because that guitar clearly means something. And the way it's on the floor, I can't tell you how much time I spent adjusting the clothing and the angle of the guitar and where the guitar would be and how it would be lying there and how much dust would be on on it. It's a carelessness. It is a discarding of something that sticks in Joel's chest like a knife. And he does his very best to not explode or do anything. He just walks over, shoves all of his feelings down into a little ball, tells her she'll get it back the next day. He's gonna put some new strings on it. Pretends that he's just caring for the guitar. She knows. She knows the second he sees it there, she knows that she's blown it and also seemingly doesn't care. That's the depth of what's going on here and how we got there and how it gets resolved is yet to come.
- [35:37]
Troy Baker
We saw this in the trailer and it's one of my favorite shots, actually, from the game that I was glad to see incorporated into this episode. Which is the dance. Yeah, it's the calm before, of course, the storm is coming. Otherwise, this is just a wonderful rom com that, you know, it takes place in.
- [35:56]
Craig Mazin
It's not a bad idea, actually. It would be a lot cheaper to.
- [35:59]
Troy Baker
Do just to turn down the drama and the action. We have this beautiful moment of the community coming together and celebrating ringing in the new year.
- [36:06]
Craig Mazin
The community. But there's Ellie alone.
- [36:08]
Troy Baker
Alone.
- [36:09]
Craig Mazin
And that is, you know, that's a shot. There are shots where, as I'm playing the game, it's not that I take notes, it's just emotionally, they thumbprint on you. Like, this is where in making a television show, a shot like that lasts about two seconds or so. The number of meetings and the amount of work put in and the set design and how those lights would be strung and how we would shoot it. And then Ksenia Sereda, our brilliant cinematographer, one of my favorite Moments of her work was that the shot was sort of set up to be on this little crane, which we had wheeled into the doorway of this church. And it just wasn't quite perfect. Like the game. I just wanted. And she was very patient, and then she was, like, in her very castennial way, take the camera off the crane, please. And then she put it on her shoulders and she just did it herself by hand, and it was flawless. It's so beautiful. And that's one of those things where when the game and the show overlap like that, it's glorious. And I think it also helps enhance where the game and the show separate, because you know it's going to come back. We don't wander away and never come back. We're always tied to that experience, which I think is great.
- [37:25]
Neil Druckmann
I'll try not to do this too much on this podcast, but that's one of those moments. I mean, I wasn't there for the filming of that, but I saw it right afterwards, and you just get emotional because you could feel the love that people had for the source material. Since season one came out, people have asked me, like, oh, what's the secret sauce to make an adaptation that works? Now I know having finished season one, which is like, find someone that loves it as much as you do, which. That's Craig Mazin and that's. Ksenia is one of those people who's played the game and loves it so much it's in her bones. Like, she knows the game inside out. So when it's trying to capture something almost identically, it's not quite the same shot. It feels like the same shot.
- [38:10]
Craig Mazin
It feels like the same shot.
- [38:11]
Neil Druckmann
It feels like the same shot. And all the work, again, for the set design for, like, the extras that are there, again, trying to capture this moment. So much work goes into something that feels simple when you're viewing it. I feel something that the rest of Naughty Dog, the studio that made the game, feels, which is like a respect and love for the source material that can only come if you really cared about it and appreciated it.
- [38:33]
Craig Mazin
Our love extends beyond the visual here. We're also listening to music that is being played by a band named Crooked still, which is the music that plays in the game.
- [38:43]
Neil Druckmann
One other fun note here. You know, when we made the game, I wanted there to be a band, but, you know, when you make a game, every character you make, you have to model them. You have to, like, model them from scratch. So it's actually really expensive to add new characters. And we're Just running out of time. So we couldn't make a band playing this music. So we just had a record player that's playing on some speakers, some A B system here. We brought Crooked, still are the ones playing there. And they're sitting there with Gustavo Santolaia, our composer, who's playing along with them.
- [39:13]
Craig Mazin
As part of the band. Brittany and the Jug Boys is the name in the show. I think it's a fantastic name. But they were. It was wonderful to work with them. And it just made the whole thing just so much, I don't know, truer.
- [39:25]
Troy Baker
We talk about how much love is being put on display, not only with the source material and the writing, even the camera shot, and the seeming love between Ellie and Dina. And now we get to see how some people in the community feel about that.
- [39:42]
Neil Druckmann
Seth.
- [39:43]
Craig Mazin
Good old Seth. I'll say this, we're going to get a little deeper into Seth. Seth had a moment in the game that was important. And in our world, which stopped at 2003, in terms of its social progress and development, there was simply not the acceptance of gay people or lesbian people or anybody on that flag. And Seth comes from that world. Clearly, we'll find out who he was and where he came from. But it was important to not pretend that the people in this world would necessarily be in a 2024 mindset about, say, queer people.
- [40:20]
Troy Baker
Not only that, but I think it's important to point out that even within this small community, there is still dissent.
- [40:27]
Craig Mazin
Yes. And it is something that we want people to feel our characters carrying with them. Ellie carries this with her. She knows how people feel, who she is, and even how Joel understands it and how he comes to understand it is yet to. To be understood. And then there's the question of Dina. What is Dina doing? And I remember getting to that moment and loving it and also being like, is this real? She says, I'm high. I smoked a lot. Well, is it real?
- [41:06]
Troy Baker
Yeah.
- [41:06]
Neil Druckmann
There's a lot of really beautiful stuff that's happening in that moment, which is, like, Ellie's insecurity. Ellie's feeling like she's not worthy of someone like Dina. And then, you know, there's Joel, who's hanging in the sidelines. He's trying his best to give Ellie the space that she's wanted, but he's controlling her from afar. And we get to hear that from some of the conversations she's having with Jesse. And then he can't help himself. When the Seth moment happens, the dad part of his brain just completely takes over and he's gotta act. And he acts the way that he knows how he's learned in this world, which is violently.
- [41:43]
Joel
Get the hell outta here.
- [41:45]
Ellie
Jesus, Seth. Let's. Let's take a walk. Come on, let's go.
- [41:56]
Joel
Are you okay?
- [41:58]
Ellie
What is wrong with you? I don't need your fucking help.
- [42:08]
Craig Mazin
Do you know what breaks my heart, and this is right from the game, Is that he does this and then turns to Ellie. And with all sincerity, as if he thinks she would be thrilled, he says, are you okay? Expecting her to hug him the way she did, maybe outside that burning steakhouse.
- [42:27]
Troy Baker
I saved you again.
- [42:28]
Craig Mazin
He can't help but try to keep saving her. And what she says is, I don't need your fucking help. And the anger on her face tells me that there is way more going on than, I'm angry that you pushed a guy in a dance. And what that is, we will come to understand.
- [42:49]
Neil Druckmann
We didn't talk about the conversation Ellie's having with Tommy, and clearly people are aware there's something going on between Ellie and Joel. But it's like, under the surface, and now it's explicit. And now I think the humiliation is like, I've just made it worse.
- [43:03]
Troy Baker
There's one other character we haven't talked about or one element that we haven't talked about, and that is the Infected.
- [43:18]
Craig Mazin
Okay.
- [43:19]
Ellie
It's a one on one. I've done that before. If you'd rather let the men handle.
- [43:28]
Craig Mazin
It, Ellie has killed a clicker with a knife to the neck in Kansas City, and she's getting real good at killing clickers with a knife to the neck here. So is Dina. They are not afraid. But this is where Ellie wants to make a choice. When Dina questions it, Ellie says, we'd rather let the men handle it. And it's not even about gender, it's about adults, really. What she's saying is, do you want the grownups to handle it? Are we just kids?
- [43:55]
Troy Baker
It's a really good springboard to talk about that moment in the supermarket where we get to see a glimpse of a new character in the form of a stalker. There's one thing to think about, these Infected that are just kind of operating autonomously. What we see here is something completely different.
- [44:14]
Craig Mazin
We talked a lot about how to create a world where our characters felt actually rather safe with the infected. Because when you go from season one to season two, if your fear reaction to Infected is the same, then you kind of haven't learned anything in five years. You haven't gotten better, you haven't Practiced humans are very good at solving problems over time. And these humans have gotten pretty good at solving the infected problem. They're feeling good about themselves to the point where Ellie and Dina are fine to walk in a supermarket and go one on one, but this one is different.
- [44:58]
Ellie
Run at me, fucker.
- [45:04]
Tommy
Run at me.
- [45:07]
Craig Mazin
And the stalker, of course, is an evolution character in the game. And we kind of wanted to spotlight the fact that they think, which is a huge problem. It is terrifying, even the way they sound. That sadness. There's a humanity in there still. There is more brain left in them.
- [45:29]
Neil Druckmann
But they're also like. How they sound is. They're quiet.
- [45:32]
Craig Mazin
Yes. And then they're quiet.
- [45:34]
Neil Druckmann
They run away, which is like they've never seen anything like this before.
- [45:37]
Craig Mazin
Like she says, they plan, they stalk. And it's also very important to note here, it wins in the sense that it bites Ellie and would infect her if she were anyone else on the planet. It's that good. So this kid, slash young woman who goes into a supermarket, cocky as hell, just got bit by this other thing that she did not see coming. The introduction of that is probably never gonna pay off. I'm sure we will never see stalkers again.
- [46:11]
Troy Baker
Something that gives us an indication that we're not gonna be okay is the fibrous network in all of the pipes that is underlying everything underneath Jackson.
- [46:25]
Craig Mazin
Yeah.
- [46:26]
Troy Baker
Can we talk a little bit about that?
- [46:28]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. What we liked about this was that it was the progress that caused the problem. That these pipes underground that had been there dormant for five years, that cordyceps had gotten into. Nobody's touching them. Nobody knows it's there. But when you are humans and you want to expand, you cannot expand without an expense that nature has to pay. And now we see it. If you don't fix those houses, if you don't break those pipes, if you don't pull out the weeds, no problem. But they have and they don't realize it yet. And there is.
- [47:12]
Neil Druckmann
Actions have consequences.
- [47:13]
Craig Mazin
Actions have consequences.
- [47:16]
Troy Baker
We'll leave the conversation there for now. Thank you as always, for joining me, Craig, and also Neil, and most importantly, you, our listener for joining us this week. This has been the official podcast for the HBO original series the Last of Us. Our senior producer is Emmanuel Hapsis. Our producer is Elliot Adler, and Darby Maloney is the editor. This episode was mixed by Raj Makhija. Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis and Bari Finkel. Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Allison Cohen, Aaron Kelly, and Kenya Reyes from the MAX podcast team. Production music is courtesy of HBO and you can watch episodes of the Last of Us on max. Make sure to join us next week as we Talk through Season 2, Episode 2. Until then, no matter what, you keep finding something to fight for.
- [48:19]
Sponsor Announcer
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