Episode 6 - “The Price”

Summary

HBO's The Last of Us Podcast: Episode 6 - “The Price”

Release Date: May 19, 2025
Host: Troy Baker
Guests: Craig Mazin (Showrunner), Neil Druckmann (Showrunner), Hallie Gross (Co-writer of The Last of Us Part II)

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Introduction and Guests

In Episode 6, titled “The Price,” host Troy Baker delves deep into the sixth installment of the HBO series The Last of Us, accompanied by showrunners Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann, alongside Hallie Gross, co-writer of The Last of Us Part II video game. The episode sets the stage for an intricate exploration of character development, thematic depth, and the delicate balance between adapting beloved game narratives to television.

Transition from Game to Show

[02:07] Troy Baker:
"When you're working on a game, there's so much to do... getting a chance to get a second crack at these characters, at telling this story in a new way, was extremely exciting for me."

Baker highlights the thrill of revisiting characters from the game in a new medium, emphasizing the opportunity to explore untapped dimensions and present fresh narratives that resonate with both gamers and new audiences.

Parental Influence and Violence

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the portrayal of parental relationships and the cyclical nature of violence. Mazin references his own childhood experiences to underscore how early life interactions shape adult behaviors and moral compasses.

[05:41] Hallie Gross:
"...what these characters are about and their complexity of emotions that they feel towards each other."

Gross elaborates on Joel’s relationship with his father, portrayed by Tony Dalton, illustrating how past experiences influence Joel’s protective instincts and his inclination towards violence as a means of safeguarding loved ones.

Character Development through Ellie's Birthdays

The episode meticulously dissects how Ellie's birthdays serve as narrative milestones, reflecting her growth and evolving relationship with Joel.

[10:21] Neil Druckmann:
"The episode is organized by a series of Ellie's birthdays. And I love watching the evolution of this."

Each birthday cake and celebration symbolizes not just the passage of time but the gradual widening of Ellie's world beyond Joel's protective bubble, highlighting her journey towards independence and self-discovery.

Iconic Scenes: "Future Days" and Emotional Performances

A pivotal moment discussed is the rendition of Pearl Jam’s "Future Days," a scene laden with emotional gravity and artistic significance.

[14:01] Hallie Gross:
"It's a beautiful song written by Pearl Jam and Eddie Vedder... what makes you stick with this one?"

Gross explains the song’s profound connection to Joel and Ellie's relationship, underpinning themes of survival, loss, and the fragile hope that binds them.

[16:48] Craig Mazin:
"It's so authentic and honest... somebody not performing, but rather being and expressing something true."

Mazin praises the authenticity of the scene, emphasizing the raw emotional exchange that transcends scripted performance, capturing the true essence of their bond.

Adaptation Choices and Fidelity to the Game

The hosts discuss the challenges and triumphs of adapting game narratives to a live-action format, maintaining fidelity while introducing new elements to enrich the story.

[25:36] Troy Baker:
"It's about what is gonna be the most effective choice... how can I honor the characters best?"

Baker underscores the importance of evolving the narrative to suit television storytelling, ensuring that character arcs remain authentic and impactful.

The Climactic Porch Scene and Character Confrontation

A highlight of the episode is the analysis of the heart-wrenching confrontation on the porch, where Ellie confronts Joel about his morally ambiguous choices.

[40:40] Craig Mazin:
"Ellie doesn't know for sure. There's no hard evidence. What she has is an intuition..."

Mazin delves into the nuanced dialogue and emotional layers of the scene, exploring Ellie’s growing distrust and the fragmented truth Joel has constructed to protect her.

[43:38] Troy Baker:
"She says it very plainly... her life would have fucking mattered."

Baker captures the raw emotion of Ellie’s accusation, reflecting on the irreversible consequences of Joel’s actions and the deep-seated guilt that shapes her worldview.

Themes of Trust, Vulnerability, and Moral Progression

The episode intertwines themes of trust and vulnerability, examining how characters navigate moral dilemmas in a post-apocalyptic world.

[18:13] Neil Druckmann:
"Programming that we're given... Ellie is now learning how to connect with people through this kind of very vulnerable moment."

Druckmann connects the characters' personal struggles to broader societal themes, highlighting the potential for moral growth even amidst chaos and despair.

[34:56] Craig Mazin:
"Parenting is such a complicated problem... how do I do right by these kids."

Mazin reflects on the complexities of parenting within the series, drawing parallels between Joel’s protective instincts and the broader human condition.

Conclusion and Teasing Season Finale

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the emotional weight of “The Price” and set the stage for the season finale.

[46:08] Neil Druckmann:
"We leave that heartbreaking moment with the two of them... leading us on to our season two finale."

The summary leaves listeners anticipating the culmination of Ellie's quest for truth and reconciliation, promising a powerful conclusion to the season’s intricate storytelling.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Troy Baker [02:07]:
  "Getting a chance to get a second crack at these characters... was extremely exciting for me."

• Hallie Gross [05:41]:
  "...their complexity of emotions that they feel towards each other."

• Craig Mazin [16:48]:
  "Somebody not performing, but rather being and expressing something true."

• Troy Baker [43:38]:
  "She says it very plainly... her life would have fucking mattered."

• Neil Druckmann [18:13]:
  "Ellie is now learning how to connect with people through this kind of very vulnerable moment."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 6 of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast provides an in-depth exploration of the emotional and narrative intricacies of “The Price.” Through thoughtful analysis and candid discussions, the podcast offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of the characters’ motivations, the moral quandaries they face, and the artistic choices that elevate the series from game adaptation to a standalone masterpiece. Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the universe of The Last of Us, this episode delivers rich insights that deepen your appreciation for the storytelling prowess of the showrunners and writers.

Transcript

[Sponsor Announcer]

This podcast is sponsored by Rocket. The American dream of homeownership feels further and further out of reach. For many people, homeownership feels impossible. But Rocket is on a mission to help everyone get home. They've got a range of products and services designed to turn renters into owners, from lowering down payments to as little as 1% to helping turn your rent check into a forever home. Find out [e-mail] Rocket Own the dream.

[Troy Baker]

You lied to me.

[Craig Mazin]

You looked me in the eyes and you lied.

[Troy Baker]

And it was the same face.

[Craig Mazin]

Same fucking look.

[Troy Baker]

I think I knew already. I knew this whole time.

[Neil Druckman]

Welcome back to the official podcast for the HBO original series, the Last of Us. I'm Troy Baker and I'm joined, as always, by the showrunners of the HBO series, Craig Mazin.

[Craig Mazin]

Hello, Troy.

[Neil Druckman]

And Neil Druckman.

[Hallie Gross]

Hi.

[Neil Druckman]

With a very special guest, co writer of the Last of Us, Part II video game, Hallie Gross. Welcome, Hallie.

[Troy Baker]

Hi, Troy.

[Neil Druckman]

Today we're unpacking episode six of season two, which is titled the Price. It was written by Neil, Hallie and Craig, and directed by Neil. Listeners, you know the drill. Spoilers ahead.

[Troy Baker]

This is nice.

[Neil Druckman]

Isn't it nice? Just a wonderful little gathering. Where I'd like to start is talking to you, Hallie. Your contribution to the part two was very visceral. What was it like coming from the game into the show? Obviously, you have a vast amount of experience writing for television. How was this different for you?

[Troy Baker]

Oh, it was really exciting because when you're working on a game, there's so much to do, there's so much material that you're really just filling the volume of the space that you have, and it's never done. The deadline's just come, so getting a chance to get a second crack at these characters, at telling this story in a new way, was extremely exciting for me. And I was so moved by what the guys had done with season one that I was really thrilled to get to be a part of it and watch their brains go.

[Neil Druckman]

What were you excited that you had worked on previously with the Game about adapting into the show?

[Troy Baker]

So much of this show is about Ellie's struggle to reconcile the past and to tolerate her own decision making through that. And there's so much darkness that the things that I was most excited to get a second crack at were the moments of beauty and lightness and love and hope as a counterpoint to the hellscape of the world that they're fighting through. Those really heartwarming moments that remind you why Ellie is making the decisions she's making and what she has lost.

[Neil Druckman]

The three of you yahoos wrote this incredible episode together. Neil, this is the episode that you directed this season. Why? Why.

[Hallie Gross]

Is this? First of all, I'm sorry.

[Craig Mazin]

Why would you do that?

[Neil Druckman]

Why is this? What drew you to this episode? Was it just the way that the schedul, or was there something specific about this that you wanted to have your personal fingerprint on?

[Hallie Gross]

Part of it is schedule, and part of it was in the story of the Last of Us, there are certain elements that just really speak to what the story's about. Even while Joel is gone, we get to see that he is at the heart of the story. Even in death, his presence remains and is guiding all these characters through a lot of choices and actions. And this episode in particular, just felt it got to as deep inside as we're gonna get into the story. We'll talk about it later. But that porch scene at the end means everything to me in the story. It really kind of speaks to what these characters are about and their complexity of emotions that they feel towards each other. So I was really nervous and excited to eventually get to that. But then there's all these other really juicy bits and including the exploration of Joel's dad that we didn't get to do in the game. And this is one of those bits that I feel like, well, I'm hoping that gamers will feel what I felt, which is, oh, I get to understand this guy a little bit more. You could take this scene and slot it into the game and it would work exactly the same. Exactly the same.

[Craig Mazin]

Did I ever tell you about that time I stole a candy bar? I was 10. Grandpa found out, made me give it back, made me apologize to the cashier, and then we went home. Just before I got out of the car, man, it just broke my jaw. There was blood everywhere. Grandma thought I was dead. My mouth was wired shut for two months. Everybody knew why. It was humiliating. If you know what it feels like, then why. That's not why I'm telling you this.

[Hallie Gross]

We talked about all the different permutations. This is how we work of, like, what could the dad feel like? What would he look like? How would he behave? We've written versions where we got to see Joel making this drug deal, or actually Tommy making the drug deal and Joel being there and beating those guys up. But ultimately, it felt like we could distill it down to this one conversation. And a lot of our talks around these conversations were, why is this time different? Why doesn't his dad beat him up for getting into trouble, and he got into serious trouble. It's because this time is different. This time Joel has done what his dad has done previously, which is like he used violence to protect Joel used violence to protect his brother. And now his dad feels like, ah, see, now maybe you understand why I've done what I've done. It's probably the most vulnerable he's ever been in his life to his son, to his eldest son.

[Craig Mazin]

There's something that my therapist would say to me, he's still alive. Don't worry. But he would say, childhood is the air we breathe. We think we're adults, but really we're children. And because we're children, even though our relationship with our parents changes over time, the way that they instruct us when we are young is imprinting. And at first, I think we were talking a little bit more about showing the birth of Joel's, for lack of a better phrase, savior complex. But what it turned into really was a discussion about how to present the chain of influence in a way that wasn't negative. Because what we've seen mostly are people handing down some pretty negative stuff to their children and so on and so on. That's sort of what the world has become. And in some ways, we feel like maybe Joel has taught Ellie some bad lessons. Certainly the acts that Joel commits at the end of the first season that Ellie becomes aware of, that's not a great lesson, per se, to hand down to solve your problems through violence. And this was really about saying there is the potential to do better, even if it seems like we're doing worse, even if we are struggling to overcome that, there is a progression, a moral progression in time. I do believe that. I believe that parents are kinder to their children now than they used to be. And I think watching this, this is very common. I mean, growing up in the 80s, people hit their kids all the time. Yeah, I remember my dad telling me about the way he was hit, which is different than the way I was. I was smacked. He was hit. And watching the improvement, you know, because I've never done that to my kids. And they wouldn't even imagine doing it to their kids. So it gives a sense of hope. We know that Ellie is going forward somehow into the world on a mission to make her grief go away. But while she's carrying that violence with her, you know, that Joel has kind of instructed her, she's also maybe carrying this lesson too.

[Hallie Gross]

It's interesting. We haven't talked about this, Craig. And I. But we have similar backgrounds in that. Yeah, I grew up in the 80s and my parents hit me. That's a thing that was pretty common with parents. And to Craig's point, the way their parents hit them was way worse. And it also speaks to something which is like, you know, as parents, sometimes you do things that, you know in the moment is wrong, but you try to look at things in kind of the broader scale, the kind of bigger scale of things, and to say, you know, in a long term, I'm gonna do right by my kid, even though right now I might be upsetting them, I might be hurting them in some way. And I think we're seeing in this scene how Joel's dad, by the way, played brilliantly by Tony Dalton. I'm surprised we've been able to keep it a secret. He's not sure if he's doing the right thing. And often as parents, those are the feelings that you're left with, like. Cause parenting is such a. Like, if you look at it as a problem, it's one of the most complicated problems you will face in your life of like, how do I do right by these kids, by my kids? And there's so many variables there and so many people you're working with, co parent teachers, and you just try to do your best. And ultimately, that's what this dad is saying here. I've done the best I could with the tools that I've had. And I remember that's, you know, I've had a conversation with my dad about, you know, hitting me and stuff like that. And what my dad told me, he's like, look, if I raised you today, I would absolutely never hit you. But that's what I knew. That's the best I could do at the time. Those are the best tools I had in front of me. So I really love the scene because of that, because I think it gets to the heart of a lot of Joel's decisions, not only in this season, but from the previous season from here on out.

[Neil Druckman]

The episode is organized by a series of Ellie's birthdays. And I love watching the evolution of this. Starting off with a cake. I love the moment with Ellie where, you know, you see Joel trying to do it right. Let's get out proper plates and cutlery. And you look over and Ellie's just already dug in. It is good. Just a mouthful of cake.

[Troy Baker]

Happy 15th birthday, Eli.

[Hallie Gross]

Well, let's hope Seth bakes better than he spells. He does. This is really good.

[Craig Mazin]

One of the things that we talked about with this episode was, as we did with the Bill and Frank episode, using a relationship to see fill in time. What happened over the 20 years between the end of the world and when Joel meets Ellie in this episode, what happened in those five years from. Okay, I'm gonna say, I accept your swearing, your oath. Everything was exactly as you said. We go to town and. And we see that it's okay. That honestly, she does believe him, or she has made a choice to believe him, or whatever part of her doubts him she has shoved way down. And it was really important to see that it was okay, that their life actually was great. It was great. It was fun. This was sort of the best of it. It reminds me so much of after Joel agrees to take Ellie from Jackson to Colorado and they just are okay with each other. He's teaching her how to shoot, and they're talking about football and their dreams for the rest of their lives. Like, I remember Neil saying that it'll never be better than this. Well, this is. If it's not better, it's just as good. They're happy. And I love that. We could kind of use Ellie's birthdays as a way to structure this so that rather than feeling episodic, it felt like every single segment was ticking off almost like a time bomb. Because a 15 year old or 14 year old is capable on some level of understanding things. But every single year, as they approach 19, every year is a massive amount of growth, a massive amount of change. And so it's like the fuse has been lit that Joel and so many other parents in the world can acknowledge has been lit, but it's lit. And the kid that you thought you knew is going away and a new kid is coming, and that kid is smarter. And that kid does not look at you like God. That kid looks at you and sees nothing but flaws. How are you gonna handle that?

[Hallie Gross]

Yeah, and also the audience knows, right? The audience knows ultimately this relationship is strained. They saw it in episode one. How do we get there? Is it just Ellie getting there on her own? Is it due to some choices Joel has made? It turns out the answer is yes. It's all those things.

[Neil Druckman]

One of the moments that we've been kind of waiting to see is what people who play the game consider one of the most iconic scenes, which is Joel singing and playing for Ellie.

[Troy Baker]

Let me hear something.

[Neil Druckman]

What do you mean, play it?

[Craig Mazin]

I don't sing. No, no, no, no, no, no. I don't sing.

[Troy Baker]

It's my fucking birthday, man.

[Hallie Gross]

Let's see what you got.

[Neil Druckman]

Let'S talk about future days. You have taken a lot of liberties with the show, and you could have chosen any number of songs. What was it about this song that no matter what you came back to, what made you stick with this one?

[Hallie Gross]

I mean, first we have to talk about why we picked it for the game. And, you know, it's something that Hallie and I discussed quite a bit. There's certain things about the lyrics. If I ever were to lose you, I'd surely lose myself. Ellie has given Joel, and it's stated even more explicitly in the show than it was in the game. She's given him a second chance at life, that after losing Sarah, Joel was suicidal and just became a zombie. He's just going through the motions. But he wasn't truly alive until he met Ellie. And that notion of if Joel were to lose Ellie at any point afterwards, it would have been the end for him. I don't believe he could have survived that. And it's just a beautiful song written by Pearl Jam and Eddie Vedder, obviously a huge fan. You've heard me say this multiple times, that once we were able to get that song, it felt like there's nothing else in mind. And I guess I have to talk about. I have a personal relationship to that song is I would play guitar and sing that song to my daughter when she was an infant. Because a lot of what Joel kind of conveys to Ellie is what I felt singing it to my daughter. So it just felt like, you know, sometimes you try to imbue things that are very personal to you. It raises your investment and makes you care more about the details and how it's executed and fleshed out.

[Neil Druckman]

This scene was definitely impactful. I have no idea how Pedro felt filming this scene. When I got the chance to do this scene, when we shot it for the game, I don't get nervous often, and this was the one that I got very nervous on because it's hard to play guitar in mocap gloves. And it's also. I knew what this song personally meant to you, Neil, and to Naughty Dog. And I knew what was on the line, what was the stakes without him being here? It's obviously hard to speak for him, but what was that like filming this scene for Pedro and Bella?

[Hallie Gross]

I think I'm not going out on a limb by speaking for Pedro and to say he was also very nervous about singing this song. We prepped quite a bit for it. You know, he took. We had. Over the weekend, there was, like, a vocal coach that we worked with. And he really also just wanted to get it right, but also make it his own. I worked quite a bit with Ksenia, our incredible dp. I remember we went on the set a week or two before we were shooting it, and we looked at every corner of that kitchen to find the perfect spot for the right lighting. And then we landed on this kind of kitchen table. Just it felt like we could silhouette them and really light them in this beautiful way, this moment. They are the happiest we'll ever see them. So how do we just really make it seem almost magical? And it was important to capture that magic with the lighting of this really, just this beautiful bonding moment. You know, it's a promise Joel had made to her in the previous season of like, I'll teach you how to play guitar. And here he is fulfilling that promise and fulfilling his role as her dad.

[Craig Mazin]

One of the things that I think is kind of magical about that moment is how it mirrors the moment where Ellie plays guitar for Dina. Like, you're a musician. Troy Pedro's not really a musician. So there was this other extra avenue of vulnerability, which is when you're not used to expressing yourself through music. When you do, you don't have the, let's say, the years of Polish rehearsal, performance. There's this weird shortcut that goes right to how you feel. It's a classic acting class exercise. Sing something with nothing and just sing it and make me believe it. And when he's playing this and he's singing this to her, it's both internal and he doesn't look at her, he looks away and she looks at him. And that is an exact mirror of how it worked with Ellie and Dina. It's obviously a different kind of relationship, but what you're seeing is somebody not performing, but rather being and expressing something true. So much so that they can't even bring themselves to look at you while they do it. And the other person is receiving it and beaming because it's true, because it's honest. And that's so important for Ellie because we know there is a splinter in her, and that splinter is him being not honest. And I love this moment for its honesty because it's going to be overturned.

[Neil Druckman]

It also underscores something you mentioned, Craig earlier, which is the programming that we're given. And in the same way that Joel protects through violence and how he was taught to protect through violence, Ellie is now learning how to connect with people through this kind of very vulnerable moment.

[Craig Mazin]

Dina literally says, he taught you well. You know, now we're seeing it, we're seeing the birth of it, and that's a beautiful thing. So this idea of the beautiful things we can pass on and the way we can improve our children and teach them things, and that is so important to counterbalance this other part of the story, because it isn't all good or bad, just like our upbringings were not all good and not all bad, and some of them are tilted more one way or the other. But it's too complicated to just describe as well, he lied to her and he screwed her up. Cause it's not true.

[Neil Druckman]

There's so many moments in this episode that I could sit and park and dissect for literally hours. But I do want to move because each of these birthdays has such significance and moves the story forward in such a beautiful way. One of them is something that actually I remember happening in Game is a conversation where he's talking about kind of how we see Joel as a clueless dad. He's trying to relate to his daughter, and he talks about the way that she looks at Jesse.

[Troy Baker]

Jesse said he'd train me if you let him.

[Hallie Gross]

Is there something going on between you two? Excuse me?

[Neil Druckman]

We spent a lot of time together. Is it funny?

[Hallie Gross]

I see the way you look at him.

[Neil Druckman]

I got a keen eye for these sort of things.

[Craig Mazin]

I don't think you do.

[Neil Druckman]

All right, none of my business.

[Craig Mazin]

How far funny as Bella in that moment. I mean, she's laughing while he's saying it, which is awesome.

[Troy Baker]

That was one of my favorite exchanges in the game. I loved how confident he is, how he thinks. He's like. He's so smart about people, he's so savvy, and he's completely missing what's so overtly under his nose.

[Craig Mazin]

And I also love that she lets him off the hook. She doesn't say, you're wrong. You're an itchy. He just goes, I don't think you do. I'm not gonna get into the rest of it. But you know what? That's kind of adorable. I mean, she's actually quite nice about it.

[Hallie Gross]

But there's also something that as much as she trusts Joel, she's not telling him the truth here. She's withholding. We're seeing the limits of that trust, the limits of vulnerability that Ellie is willing to take with Joel. I hope viewers can't help but wonder, what else is she holding back on? What are the feelings, what other things that she's struggling with that she is not talking to Joel about?

[Sponsor Announcer]

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[Neil Druckman]

This entire exchange happens as we're making our way to a birthday surprise of the museum. And this scene means so much to me and obviously to people who are familiar with the story. But I want to talk about the Apollo 15 simulation where the idea of this come from, the origination, obviously, the adaptation into the show.

[Hallie Gross]

You get these questions often, like, where did this idea come from? And often it comes from, like, a million different places. But this one actually we could trace back to a few specific ones. When we were working on the first Last of Us game, I was working with Faith Aaron Hicks on a comic book that showed Ellie and Riley's first time, the way they met. In it, we see Ellie walk into an arcade that's been destroyed. And we get to go in her mind for, like, a few panels in that comic book of her imagining what it would have been like. Because so much of Elie, you know, and anybody that has been born after the apocalypse, a lot of these things, like flying a plane, kids playing in an arcade, someone going to space, these are myths. These are things that might never happen again, ever, for humanity. So it was interesting to kind of go in her brain and see the world through her imagination. When we cast you, Troy and Ashley, for Joel and Ellie, I asked you guys, what were your dreams? What did you want to be when you grew up? If it wasn't acting? You told me singer. That's why Joel sings. Ashley told me astronaut. She loves space. That's why Ellie is obsessed with space. It's because of your stories that are now imbued in this narrative. So it felt, if that's the thing Ellie loves the most, this is the Joel can give her. How could he come the closest to taking her to space? Well, it's through her imagination. But putting her in a capsule that's actually been to space and finding this recording that, you know, who knows what he went through and what maybe horrible things he had to do to get this? But he gets this cassette that has this recording of a liftoff sequence, a launch sequence, and as best as he could, he takes her to space. Can you imagine being up there?

[Craig Mazin]

Would you like to.

[Hallie Gross]

Like to what? Go to space. When Craig and I first started working on the show, we've said the story a lot, but now I could actually say what we were talking about. He came by Naughty Dog, and we started talking about the first game and how we're gonna break it into season one. And we were still working on game two, and I said, do you wanna see something from this game? He's like, duh, of course. And I loaded up this exact sequence, the space capsule sequence, and it was in pretty good shape. It wasn't quite final. And Craig in that moment said, one day in the future years from now, we will do this sequence exactly like that. And he was a man of his word, because that's what we. At least that's what we attempted to do. And, you know, for my money, I believe we pulled it off.

[Craig Mazin]

There is a danger of inserting ego into this process where you think, well, I can't just do the same thing because then, you know, I'm somehow less than as a writer. No, no, no, no, no. It's the most honest and brave thing you can do as somebody who's adapting material. Keep it. If it's right, you keep it. And that was a moment where it's just like, oh, yeah, why would I change anything? Why would I even suggest changing something there? It works, and I knew it would work on tv. It's this glorious cut scene. It is television, and it's so quiet, and it's just two people sitting in one space, which is my favorite thing to do. And there are moments coming up in season three where I am so excited to replicate through adaptation because it will be different anyway. It's still different. It's Pedro and it's Bella. There's something different happening there between the two of them. And yet it's the same. It's glorious Helle for you.

[Neil Druckman]

Is there a temptation in you to go, oh, this is one thing I kind of wanted to work in? And either we ran out of time or something about it didn't allow that idea to manifest. Do you have that temptation, or can you look at it as Craig said and go, you just do it?

[Troy Baker]

No, I think Craig's comment about ego is absolutely right. It's about what is gonna be the most effective choice. And there are times, I think, in the game where we really nailed it, where we were like, our intention was X and we achieved X. But I think what's exciting about this process is, you know, you write games out of order, and so you've got A very clear outline, but your eye is on so many different things happening all at the time, same. And you're just hoping that Web comes together with tv. You can write and conceive of arcs in this extremely linear fashion. So you're going to find new things, you're going to deepen experiences. So I think you want to excavate every single scene and go, is there a way that we can plus this? Because if you're precious as a writer, I think there's a fragility that will end up breaking you. I think you have to. If you want your work to continue to be better, if you want to continue to grow as a writer, you have to constantly gut check and go, can I make this better? Can I make this more authentic? Can I make this, the tension greater? Can I make the feelings deeper? And how can I honor the characters best? And that's who you're serving more than anybody else. I want to just also add, like, for me, speaking about the capsule scene, the moment that we came into this set that was built for, for the museum was I've never more felt like I was in a simulation. It was such a fucking one for one. It was insane. The level of accuracy. You really felt how much everybody loved this moment, especially this world. It was life changing. It was super cool.

[Hallie Gross]

Oh, this moment is the most universally loved across the games. One quick anecdote to that as well is while we were shooting that I had Alison Mori, who's the studio manager at Naughty Dog, and Arnie Meyer, who's the head of communication at Naughty Dog, they came to visit and just I had Allison sit next to me while I was directing. And we were at a different location and I was like, hey, do you guys want to see something? Because this set was still being built while we were directing. I was directing something else. We walked over and I showed them the space capsule. It's not quite finished. It's still getting greens and set dressings put in to really kind of help the foliage and the lighting is being put in. And I'm like, look how authentic this is. This is just like the game. And they're standing behind me, so I'm not seeing them. And then I turn to face them. I kid you not, they're both crying. Because again, we've worked on these sequences for years, you know, trying to get them right and sweating them. And then you're like, you're now moving to this other medium. You're working with a whole new team and they're working hard and trying to recreate it. And that stuff just means so much to us. I can't stress that enough. When you get it right, it just feels so special. It's like someone honoring your kid is the closest I can come to the emotion you feel.

[Troy Baker]

And there's so much stuff that people watching the show aren't gonna see. They built, trust me, fam, if you see this, there was a whole rover. You're not gonna see. That was exactly where it was in the layout of the game. There was a whole atrium with dinosaur skeletons where Ellie could put hats on the different. Like, it was the most moving, immersive experience I have had.

[Neil Druckman]

What I love hearing is how much attention goes into every little detail from the solar system to the capsule to Ellie's tattoo. And this is where we get to see the genesis of that, the beginning of that. Not only is that the first time we get to see, but it's also the first time that we really get to see this budding sexuality in Ellie. We have this moment where she gets caught with Cat. And Joel interrupts this moment of intimacy, not only of what's happening between the two of them, but also the covering up of her secret. Let's talk about that moment.

[Craig Mazin]

Well, it's not really budding, is it? I mean, Ellie's known who she is. I think she's one of those people who's always known. She knew when she was with Riley five years earlier, and she knows who she is now. However, the discovery of having a connection with another person, intimacy with another person inside of the bubble that Joel thinks he's created, which parents do around their children, that it's, we are a unit. It's, we are a community, and nobody else could ever get inside of this tiny bubble. And what happens as your children get older is you suddenly realize they like other people more than you. You. They share things with other people that they don't share with you. And that's necessary because they have to start to break away and they begin to do these things. Joel is bowled over by it. He doesn't understand. And we think back to Sarah, who Nico Parker played with this perfect kind of. It's like the child everyone would dream of having because she's growing up, but she's still a kid, she loves him. It's just the two of them. There's no other friend over. There's nobody else she talks about. There's no boyfriend. It's just them. And here Ellie is getting high. She's making out with some girl. She's getting A tattoo which is a permanent mark. Permanent. Which children do casually. My youngest daughter not only jailhouse tattooed herself, but jailhouse tattooed another kid.

[Neil Druckman]

That's hard, man. That's awesome.

[Craig Mazin]

I mean, not. Not against that kid's will, trust me. I mean, it was all. It was all agreed upon. But, you know, and I remember saying, this is permanent. You understand that? And she was like, yeah, I understand. But they don't, because they're 16 or 17, and the idea of being 70 is not a thing. And this rupture here inside of their house leads to this kind of amazing moment where Ellie calls Joel out on something that I think is fascinating. You may not like the rules, but.

[Neil Druckman]

This is my house.

[Hallie Gross]

No, it isn't.

[Troy Baker]

You don't own it.

[Craig Mazin]

They gave it to you. Sorry. To us.

[Troy Baker]

You don't own anything.

[Craig Mazin]

You're Joel and I'm Ellie, and we're Joel and Ellie. But I don't belong to you. Not the way Sarah belonged to you. Not the way your house belonged to you. This is different. There's no belonging here. And the problem that Joel has is there is something huge else going on here. It's one of the reasons why it was important for us to start the season the way we did. Begin again with Swear to me. But then add that little extra bit where Joel looks at her, she's walking away, and it's almost like I did it, but also almost like I'm not sure I did it. And here, the sick kind of paranoia that maybe that little infection of that lie that we thought went away, maybe she's not immune to that.

[Hallie Gross]

Maybe that's still there and he's ignoring the clues that are right in front of him. Right when we talk about, okay, why did you get this moth? And he gets it completely wrong what that moth means again, the confidence in the answer.

[Neil Druckman]

Right?

[Hallie Gross]

And then he hears it from Gale. No, no, it means death. And even then, he's like. He's taken aback because he doesn't know her as well as he should. And then what I believe is happening in his head, he rationalizes it. He's like, okay, you know, kids at that age get obsessed with death. They get obsessed with skulls. I was as a kid. And he's not tying it back to the lie to what actually happened that is just buried inside Ellie. But as we see over this course of this episode starts to bubble up.

[Neil Druckman]

We get what the actual interpretation of what the moth means through Gael, who's I'm very quickly talk about. I love the. We've been Discussing a lot of the details. She's reading the book Earth of Ides.

[Hallie Gross]

It's a forties post apocalyptic science fiction book. And this was one of our references when we were working on the original Last of Us, because we tried to consume every post apocalyptic media that we could. And this one was one of my favorites. So when the question came up, like, oh, what do you have Gale reading? I'm like, I got an idea. I guess Earth Abides. Let's do that. And if people are wondering where the Ish character or his name was inspired by came from, it's from this book. Ish, for those that don't know, was an important side character that we explored in the game. And he built this whole underground society community that, you know, is explored in much more detail in the game. We got to see that community or what was left behind of it in the show. In season one, this is where Ellie, Joel, Henry and Sam end up hiding in. And we see some of the drawings that were left of that community that show a sketch of who Ish was, but his origin comes back to Earthabytes.

[Neil Druckman]

This also ties into something else that's been underneath the surface. Another secret. Not only what happened to Joel and Ellie, but what happened between Joel and Gale, which is what happened with Eugene, tragically played by Joe Pantoliano.

[Craig Mazin]

Joey Pants legend. And for us, we have people that come on set and are incredible actors. We have a really good tradition now. I think we can say after two seasons of some of the best guest acting, if you look at the way the Emmy nominations worked for season one, I mean, basically everybody that was a guest actor on our show got nominated. And this season, I love this tradition of keeping these great people coming in and just dunking, you know, just absolutely dunking on us all. And even then, I think the. Everyone was like, oh, my God, it's Joey Pants. The legend of Joey Pants extends all the way into Canada. And what a treat to work with somebody like that and required a little bit of scrambling because we had originally had a Matrix poster in Ellie's garage. And on the Matrix poster is Joey Pants.

[Neil Druckman]

Oh, no.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah, that's a kind of universe boundary breakage that we can't have.

[Neil Druckman]

VFX paint this one out took care of that. It is such a beautiful moment because Joel offers, obviously, Eugene has been bitten. And Ellie's the one who says, hold out your hand, slowly, count to 10. And he shows that he has time. And he makes one request. Please, I need to see Gale. What a beautiful, beautiful moment. Let's talk about this. We obviously didn't get to see this in the game. It's something that is different. I'm curious from each of you what this moment meant for you.

[Troy Baker]

Oh, man, this scene was really tricky. As we were working on this episode. I think this is the scene that we iterated on the most. And there had been a lot of different versions. And we just kind of tossed it around and talked about it and chewed on it and trying to figure out what was sort of. Cause this is such a. This is such an important moment in the sort of zeitgeist of this season.

[Craig Mazin]

If you have last words for her.

[Neil Druckman]

I'll pass them along.

[Craig Mazin]

Last words for her? No, no, I need. I need her last words for me.

[Troy Baker]

And I remember reading that line. I think it was Craig that had wrote that line, like, it's her last words. I want her last words for me. And I remember reading that line being like, oh, there it is. That's what we've been looking for this whole time was that line understood.

[Craig Mazin]

It was a tough scene. I remember there were a lot of versions and yeah, I think on that there was maybe that was the version where I think Neil called me. He was like, well, Hallie's in tears. I think this is working.

[Troy Baker]

Yeah, yeah, that one got me.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah.

[Hallie Gross]

The reason I enjoyed collaborating with Hallie and Craig writing this scene is it's felt like such a complicated problem to solve. On the one hand, we have the mystery that we set up in episode one about Gale and Eugene and what happened there. Then we have, you know, in the game, the way the game part two is structured is these flashbacks. And they're not identical to what's happening here, but there's certain different flashbacks that achieve similar things that these flashbacks achieve. And they're spread out throughout the game while you're playing as Ellie here, we said, okay, let's take all of them and kind of compress them into this one episode. And you know, in the game, something very, very different that happens. Ellie travels, she leaves Jackson and she finds the hospital. And in it she finds evidence of what Joel has done and then she confronts him about it. We felt like, you know, for live action, the show has become more grounded, more realistic than the game. It felt a bit far fetched for her to leave. And so we needed to achieve it in a different way. So that is a variable that we have to address at some point.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah.

[Hallie Gross]

And eventually we're working towards this porch scene that Ellie will confront Joel with all these things. So how do we get the truth without Ellie having hardcore evidence that Joel lied to her. And it's like, well, if we see another example where he does the same exact thing. And this is where, like, all of a sudden, right, that's when the penny dropped and everything kind of fell into place. And it felt like. Oh, then it felt like a joy to write that scene because we know the destination. This is the thing we always talk about. Once we know the destination. It's so easy to make the right creative choices without knowing that destination. That's where you flounder for a while. And that's why we floundered, I think, for a while with the scene, because we didn't have that destination. But once it all found a place. And then to see the way Joey Pants approached it, you know, I often don't like revealing too much about actors and their process, but I really loved what he did here. And it's worth mentioning, as he saw this moment, as he's facing his death, he becomes so terrified he turned into a child. That's how he approached that scene. And he needed Gale to give him comfort. And again, no one is doing necessarily the wrong thing. Maybe the one thing that Joel did wrong is that he lied to Ellie. He could have told her the truth, but he's protecting Jackson. He's following the rules, actually. And the rules are like, you cannot bring Eugene back because who knows what will happen if he turns right next to Gail. He could bite her. She could get in. That's why they don't do it. But he makes the fatal flaw of trying to protect Ellie. He lies to her again.

[Neil Druckman]

And it all culminates in, Neil, what you just brought up, which is the porch scene. You gave us a glimpse of this in the very beginning, where Joel's sitting on the porch and we just see Ellie walk past him. Now we get the moment where she comes back and we get that moment of confrontation with the same reverence that you approach the capsule with the same level of. We have to get these details right. There are moments in this scene that are different. It's not one to one.

[Craig Mazin]

One of the things that I really loved about this adaptation is that Ellie doesn't know for sure. There's no hard evidence. What she has is an intuition as she's grown up and rolling his story around in her mind. It doesn't add up at all. And I love that she has to pull it out of him, and he has to admit it step by step. He has to acknowledge there were no other immune people. They could have made a cure. He did kill everyone in the hospital. He did specifically kill Marlene, who was the closest thing Ellie had to a mom before all this happened. The one person that kept her alive before she handed her off to Joel. And then he lied to her. And that is so painful to watch, that then blending into the exact then back and forth that you had on the porch from the game, which, by the way, takes place at the end of the game. And here we have it here for good reason, is fantastic. And then inside of that, this then little adaptive bit where we come back around to the lesson Joel learned from his father that he is now putting on her.

[Neil Druckman]

But if somehow I had a second chance at that moment.

[Craig Mazin]

I would do.

[Neil Druckman]

It all over again.

[Troy Baker]

Because you're selfish.

[Craig Mazin]

Because I love you.

[Neil Druckman]

In a way you can't understand. Maybe you never will.

[Hallie Gross]

But if that day should come, if.

[Neil Druckman]

You should ever have one of your.

[Craig Mazin]

Own.

[Neil Druckman]

Well, then.

[Craig Mazin]

I hope you do.

[Neil Druckman]

A little better than me.

[Craig Mazin]

I blew it. I blew it for the best possible reason. I would blow it again because I love you in a way you don't understand, which is absolutely true about children. They don't understand. They can't. But I hope you do a little bit better than me. And that, to me, is the thing that you have to wonder, will Ellie carry that forward in her bones or will she not?

[Neil Druckman]

In the porch scene, Ellie says the reason why Joel did this is because he's selfish. Talk about what she lost when Joel made the decision to save her.

[Troy Baker]

I mean, she says it very plainly in the scene, but, you know, my life would have fucking mattered. You know, through the course of this episode and through the course of both seasons, you see the consequences of the infection and the people that we've lost who could have been saved, right? And you see that very loudly with Joey pants this idea that, like, if there were a cure, we could have done something here. Gale would have, her husband, Riley would be alive. Her death could have brought so much love back to so many people.

[Hallie Gross]

You know, from season one, from maybe the moment we meet Ellie, she's suffering from survivor's guilt that she lived and Riley died. Why is that? And, you know, people often wrestle with these things, especially when they survive something that someone they care about or someone close to them didn't. And then it happened again with Tess, and then it happened again with Henry and Sam. And it's all in the service of trying to deliver this girl, to make this cure. Because if we can make the cure, maybe it's all worth it. And Ellie hates the fact that she wasn't given the choice, the agency, and she tells us now explicitly, given that choice, she would have wanted to die because then her life would have meant something. All those horrible things that happened on this journey would have meant something to her. But he took that from her. And in the same conversation, she comes to understand this unconditional love that he has for her. And even though it kills her, it eats away at her and has eaten away at her since they made that decision. She wants to move towards reconciliation.

[Troy Baker]

I don't think I can forgive you.

[Neil Druckman]

For this.

[Troy Baker]

But I would like to try.

[Hallie Gross]

That porch scene, I was so nervous about that because, again, that scene is, to me, the most important scene in the entire story, which is why, you know, in the game, it's at the very end, one of the choices that we made to bring it up, and the reason we brought it up is because we were worried it wouldn't work if you had to wait years to get this payoff. And it felt here, as we're on this journey with Ellie, it felt appropriate to do it in this moment in time. But, yeah, it was such a joy. It was a freaking joy to work on this. And it felt like I was living in the world of the last of us. And it was really cool.

[Neil Druckman]

We leave that heartbreaking moment with the two of them and those words still hanging in the air. And we then join Ellie present day walking in the Seattle rain with a purpose now. And that's what's going to lead us on to our season two finale. Thank you all for listening. And of course, to Neil, Craig, Hallie. Thank you all for being here with us today.

[Troy Baker]

Thanks, Troy.

[Craig Mazin]

Thank you, Troy.

[Neil Druckman]

This has been the official podcast for the HBO original series the Last of Us. Our senior producer is Emmanuel Hapster. Our producer is Elliot Adler, and Darby Maloney is the editor. This episode was mixed by Raj Makhija. Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis and Bari Finkel. Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Allison Cohen, Erin Kelly and Kenya Reyes from the MAX podcast team. Production music is courtesy of HBO and you can watch episodes of the Last of Us on max. Make sure to join us next week as we wrap up season two with the finale. Until then, no matter what, you keep finding something to fight for.

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