Episode 7 - “Convergence”

Summary

HBO's The Last of Us Podcast Episode 7: “Convergence” Release Date: May 26, 2025 Host: Troy Baker Guests: Craig Mazin (Showrunner), Neil Druckmann (Showrunner), Hallie Gross (Co-Executive Producer and Writer)

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Introduction

In Episode 7, titled "Convergence," of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast, host Troy Baker delves deep into the season finale with showrunners Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann, alongside special guest Hallie Gross. The trio dissects pivotal moments from the episode, exploring character developments, thematic elements, and the creative decisions that shaped this climactic installment.

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Opening Scene: Jesse and Dina in Seattle Theater

The episode begins with a detailed analysis of the opening scene set in Seattle, where Jesse tends to a wounded Dina. The conversation highlights the authenticity of the medical procedure depicted:

• Neil Druckmann reflects on the realism, stating, “If you didn’t get it now, if you don’t get it now, just give up” (01:28) humorously advising listeners to watch the episode before listening further.

• Craig Mazin elaborates on Jesse’s attempt to save Dina, emphasizing the emotional depth: “He says, Dina, shut the fuck up. Right? That only happens when there is intimacy between people because she's fear babbling...” (04:12).

This scene underscores the intense bond between Jesse and Dina, showcasing their vulnerability amidst chaos.

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Character Dynamics: Ellie and Dina

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Ellie’s relationship with Dina, particularly focusing on Ellie's internal conflict and moral dilemmas:

• Troy Baker highlights a tender moment: “There's this beautiful moment between Ellie and Dina in the dressing room... it's the first thing Ellie comes back and she says, 'Where is she?'” (06:15).

• Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann delve into Ellie’s struggles with her actions and the weight of her decisions, juxtaposing her moral compass with Joel’s: “Ellie robs Dina of making a fully thoughtful choice... It's a betrayal” (10:37, 10:57).

This deep dive reveals the complexities of Ellie's character, her pursuit of justice, and the personal costs associated with her quest.

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Themes: Heroism, Morality, and Community

The podcast explores overarching themes such as heroism, morality, and the concept of community:

• Neil Druckmann draws parallels between video game mechanics and character emotions: “When you're working on the game... it's important to show it's taken a toll.” (07:09).

• Craig Mazin discusses the duality of love in the series: “There is the love that goes outward and protects... and the love that surrounds and defends at any cost.” (20:28).

These discussions emphasize the show's exploration of what it truly means to be a hero and the moral ambiguities that come with survival.

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Emotional Highpoints: Mel’s Sacrifice and Ellie’s Downfall

A particularly poignant segment analyzes Mel’s traumatic scene and its impact on Ellie:

• Craig Mazin describes Mel's desperate attempt to save her unborn child: “She tried to save a life... But it's too late.” (44:29).

• Neil Druckmann connects this to Ellie's own failures: “Ellie doesn't literally know where in the belly the baby is... She failed.” (46:26).

This moment serves as a catalyst for Ellie's emotional breakdown, highlighting her vulnerabilities and the irreversible consequences of her actions.

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Character Comparisons: Ellie vs. Abby

The podcast draws compelling comparisons between Ellie and Abby, exploring their motivations and moral standings:

• Hallie Gross introduces the concept of Ellie entering her "villain era": “This is Ellie entering her villain era.” (12:56).

• Craig Mazin contrasts their approaches: “The two people who are the most alike in this story are Ellie and Abby because they don't have children. They are pursuing death as punishment.” (27:07).

These insights illustrate the blurred lines between heroism and villainy, emphasizing the show's intricate character dynamics.

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Production Insights: Crafting the Final Confrontation

Behind-the-scenes decisions and challenges in adapting the game’s narrative for television are discussed extensively:

• Craig Mazin shares the creative process behind key scenes: “What if we took a very, very traumatic scene from the game and made it even more traumatic?” (43:02).

• Neil Druckmann explains the metaphorical underpinnings: “The cycles of violence that happen in the world we live in... are represented as individuals.” (43:39).

These discussions reveal the balance between staying true to the source material and elevating the storytelling for a new medium.

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Cliffhanger and Season Finale

The episode culminates with an analysis of the season finale's dramatic climax, featuring the intense showdown between Ellie and Abby:

• Craig Mazin describes the emotional weight of the final confrontation: “Abby shows up in the theater... It's gorgeous acting.” (50:35).

• Troy Baker and Neil Druckmann reflect on the unresolved tensions, setting the stage for future conflicts: “You’ve left the audience with a bunch of questions that we’re going to wait until season three to answer.” (55:04).

The cliffhanger leaves audiences eager for the next season, pondering the fates of beloved characters and the overarching war hinted at throughout the series.

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Conclusion and Looking Forward to Season Three

In their closing remarks, the hosts express gratitude and excitement for the journey ahead:

• Neil Druckmann shares personal reflections on the impact of the story: “I have such gratitude... It’s why we work so hard.” (57:17).

• Craig Mazin emphasizes the collaborative effort and anticipation for future storytelling: “I know that it begins again. And I love a beginning.” (58:52).

• Hallie Gross speaks to the growth and learning experienced during the series: “I hope the characters resonate with everyone else as much as they’ve helped me sort of reflect on myself and heal parts of myself.” (60:02).

• Troy Baker concludes with heartfelt thanks, encouraging fans to stay engaged until the next season: “Thank you for being a part of this one... Until season three, endure and survive.” (60:39).

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Notable Quotes

• Jesse: “If I were out there somewhere lost and in trouble, you would set the world on fire to save me.” (00:37)

• Dina: “I thought it would be harder to. But it wasn't. It was easy. I just kept hurting her.” (06:56)

• Ellie: “I don't know if I can ever forgive you for this, but I would like to try.” (05:30)

• Owen: “I’m not doing it because I'm like you... I’ll do it. I’ll do it. I'll show you.” (34:42)

• Abby: “I let you live. I let you live, and you wasted it.” (50:35)

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Final Thoughts

Episode 7 of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast provides an in-depth exploration of "Convergence," offering fans a comprehensive understanding of the season's intricate narrative and character arcs. Through insightful discussions and heartfelt reflections, Troy Baker, Craig Mazin, Neil Druckmann, and Hallie Gross elucidate the emotional and thematic depths of the episode, setting the stage for the anticipated continuation of this compelling story in season three.

Transcript

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[Jesse]

If I were out there somewhere lost and in trouble, you would set the world on fire to save me.

[Dina]

I would.

[Troy Baker]

Welcome back to the official podcast for the HBO Originals series, the Last of Us. I'm Troy Baker and I'm joined as always by the showrunners of the HBO series, Craig Mazin.

[Craig Mazin]

Well, hello, Troy.

[Troy Baker]

Neil Druckmann.

[Neil Druckmann]

Hello. For the last time, Troy, but also.

[Troy Baker]

A very, very special guest. Back with us for the season finale. We're lucky enough again to have Hallie Gross, who's the co EP and also one of the writers on this ultimate episode, Hallie Gross.

[Hallie Gross]

Hi, babe, how are you?

[Troy Baker]

Hi.

[Craig Mazin]

Hi.

[Troy Baker]

Nina Lopez. Corrado directed this episode. Knocked it out of the park again. The writing on this is incredible. Direction on this is amazing, but man, that end just.

[Craig Mazin]

Come on. Here we go.

[Troy Baker]

Now we know where we're going, we know where we've been and what a great setup to to what season three will be. I'm gonna say it now, listeners. This is the seventh time that we've done this.

[Neil Druckmann]

If you didn't get it now, if.

[Troy Baker]

You don't get it now, just give up. But seriously, if you haven't watched the episode, thank you so much for being so interested in this podcast. We love talking about it, but we want to be able to discuss it openly and freely without any guilt that we might spoil something for you. So please stop listening, go watch the episode and come back and join us for this final episode. Episode seven of season two, Convergence. Following a full episode of Backstory, this beautiful mile markered out birthday after birthday, culminating in that front porch scene. We're now back in Seattle and the first shot is back at the theater and it shows Jesse treating a wounded Dina.

[Craig Mazin]

Can't let me die. Yeah, I know. No, you don't.

[Jesse]

Listen, if I pull it, it's gonna tear an artery. I need to push it through.

[Dina]

How do you know that?

[Craig Mazin]

What if it's the wrong way?

[Jesse]

I know where the arteries are.

[Troy Baker]

No, you don't.

[Craig Mazin]

Get out of Dr. Dina.

[Troy Baker]

Shut up.

[Craig Mazin]

Dina.

[Jesse]

I got you, all right?

[Craig Mazin]

I got you.

[Troy Baker]

I think I know who did this. But it was. I'm going to call out, Craig, you don't pull out an arrow, you push it through. Is that you?

[Craig Mazin]

I'm generally when it comes to medical science, it's fair bet. I remember I took an advanced first aid class when I was like 17, you know, kind of like the pre EMT class, you know, and part of what you have to deal with there wounds. And I remember being both shocked and then like, oh, of course. If there is any kind of barbed instrument, typically it's a fish hook. People are fishing, they swing it back, the hook goes into somebody. If it's deep enough, do not pull it back, push it through because of the barbs. And it's a terrifying thing to imagine that somebody is going to push a crossbow bolt through your leg. And what I love about the interaction here is Jesse saying, dina, shut up.

[Neil Druckmann]

He says, dina, shut the fuck up.

[Craig Mazin]

Shut the fuck up. Right? That only happens when there is intimacy between people because she's fear babbling and in his own way, he needs her to snap out of it. And then he just says to her, I got you and it's love. But also there's this interesting little weird thing.

[Troy Baker]

Take a drink.

[Craig Mazin]

No. I said, no. So there's these little, little things. And Jesse hesitates for just a moment. Smart Jesse. And then he pushes the crossbow bolt through him.

[Hallie Gross]

One of my favorite things about this scene as we were working our way through it, is that there is some very subtle mirroring with what you're going to see with Mel at the end of the episode. That there is this woman in crisis protecting the thing they love the most in a moment of excruciating pain, begging for help and finding their path through. And so there was this like, I think there were even drafts that were slightly more explicit of that opening section that both evoked women in labor, women desperate to protect their baby above all else, and giving you that really intense mirroring of Dina and Mel that later Jesse is going to also see when he enters that aquarium.

[Craig Mazin]

That's a great point. Jesse is successful at this. And Ellie, as we're gonna find out, not so much. And I love how bad Ellie is at being a hero, just the way I always loved how bad Joel was at being a hero. And yet even though they stumbled and failed and fell, they managed to somehow get through and find a kind of redemption. Which is, I think, what we sort of saw at the end of the last episode where Ellie says, I don't know if I can ever forgive you for this, but I would like to try. That is at least the promise of a kind of red. But Jesse doesn't need that. Jesse is good at stuff. And I don't think anybody watching that is wondering for a moment if it's going to work. Of course it's going to work. It's Jesse.

[Troy Baker]

There's this beautiful moment between Ellie and Dina in the dressing room. It's the first thing Ellie comes back and she says, where is she? And she's in the dressing room, and she finds her. And it's the most loving thing that we see in the midst of this horror. And I love the fact that, again, you guys have consistently, throughout this season, specifically, have played with putting these characters in moments of vulnerability. And you see this loving interaction between the two of them. Dina's shirt off, and she sees what has happened to Ellie, and they talk about what happened with Nora.

[Dina]

I thought it would be harder to.

[Craig Mazin]

Do.

[Dina]

But it wasn't. It was easy. I just kept hurting her.

[Craig Mazin]

We haven't had a chance since the end, really, of episode five to deal with what Ellie's done. We ended episode five essentially with Ellie torturing Nora. And then we have that little button where we go, oh, we're gonna go back in time and spend time with Joel again. But when we get to the end of episode six and we see Ellie in the rain, we can see that something is broken in her. We don't know what's happened with Nora. All we know is that she went somewhere that she should not have gone. And here she has to kind of confess this. This is another one of those scenes where it's both just like the game, and then there are these other elements that sort of get woven in. She found it easy to torture Nora, what's hard for her to do, and what she feels a terrible need to do. Maybe because episode six kind of happens in Ellie's mind as she's walking through the rain. All those memories and the memory of Joel having to tell her the truth. She has to tell Dina the truth. She has kept something from her and all of us that this whole time that she's been going after this theoretically motivationless villain, not only did she know why Abby showed up to kill Joel, but she knew before Abby showed up to kill Joel what Joel had done. She knew it and did not tell Dina.

[Dina]

And he killed everyone in the hospital. Everyone.

[Craig Mazin]

He killed Abby's father.

[Dina]

He was a doctor, and Joel shot.

[Craig Mazin]

Him in the head.

[Dina]

To save me. So that's why they came.

[Craig Mazin]

Dina says to Ellie in episode three, I Wasn't gonna tell anybody before I told you. Well, Ellie didn't tell Dina the most important thing return. And. Oh, man. Isabella Merced and Bella Ramsey here just connecting on the most gorgeous deep level. And you see how Dina is wondering in the context of that story she told about her own family. Wait, is this right? Is what we're doing right?

[Neil Druckmann]

That scene, you know, I remember when Hallie and I were talking quite a bit about it when we made the game. You know, in games, you often, like, take all these actions. You're doing these things very heroic, and you don't think about the consequence of the violence because it is a mechanic that you repeat over and over again. But we felt it was important to show it's taken a toll. There's a physical toll that we wanted to show and an emotional toll that we wanted to show. It's actually I love moments when I'm working with someone. And we disagree about the interpretation of that scene. I think I have a different interpretation than Craig right here. I know Ellie says that torture was okay for her. It was not. I think she's lying to herself, and this has taken a huge toll on her because she is not Joel as much as she wants to be. And we'll see again in this episode later where she's trying to do the same trick Joel does with the map that we saw him do in season one. And she fails miserably. Even here, she tried to torture someone to get the information out of them. But whereas Joel could then move away from that and never think about it again, this will haunt her for the rest of her life.

[Troy Baker]

We've seen that programming, as we Talked about in 206, how Joel's taught her everything. Like you said, he also taught her how to lie. And maybe it's only just in this moment did I realize that with the withholding of the information, it's the same sin. It's the sin of omission. It's the same thing that Joel did.

[Neil Druckmann]

It's a betrayal. It's the betrayal when you love someone and you lie to them. It's a betrayal.

[Troy Baker]

This would not have been the same case in the game. But here in the show, we. We see that there is a different relationship that Dina and Joel have. And it's plausible to believe that the reason why Ellie didn't say anything is because she did not want to destroy the relationship that Joel and Dina had.

[Craig Mazin]

No, no, no.

[Troy Baker]

There's only one view. There's only one perspective.

[Craig Mazin]

There's, like three other possibilities. It's just that that's not one of them. I think that Ellie knows that if she were to say to Dina at that dining room table, okay, you just told me something that you had been hiding for three months, that you knew who they were and where they were from. But you're explaining why you concealed it from me, which is logical. And you are now sharing it with me, and you are offering your help to me. I have something to share with you in return.

[Troy Baker]

You don't think she would have gone?

[Craig Mazin]

I think it would have shaken it up quite a bit. I don't think it would have been so clear to say, we're gonna go sneak out and go track this person down and kill them. I think at that point, you have to stop and go, wait, I didn't know Joel as well as I thought. And maybe this is one where we mourn him and we're angry that people did it the way they did it. It's a little bit like when Katherine o' Hara says to Pedro Pascal, I know you, why you did what you did, but it was the way you did it. Okay? The way Abby did it here was brutal. But I could see any reasonable person saying, but I understand why she did it. Ellie withholds that because she's worried that Dina won't help or that anyone won't help.

[Hallie Gross]

I also think there's a level of judgment, right? There's a level of, I don't need resistance. I'm going to do this no matter what the answer is. And that's what we'll see over the course of the episode, right? Like, this is sunk cost fallacy for Ellie. This is Ellie entering her villain era.

[Craig Mazin]

Love that.

[Hallie Gross]

Right? And we'll watch over the course of the episode where the universe will say to her, girl, turn back, stop. Girl, turn back, stop. And this is just that first moment of, hey, this woman who has been on board with you, who has been your ride or die forever, is saying, we have to go home. This is your family. This is your future, saying, we need to stop right now. And that's not enough, by the way.

[Neil Druckmann]

This also recontextualizes this moment that Ellie and Dina know that Dina is pregnant, know that there's more on the line right now if we proceed. And in withholding this information, Ellie robs Dina of making a fully thoughtful choice.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah.

[Neil Druckmann]

And Causina says, we will proceed. I am choosing to move forward. But would she have chosen to move forward if she had all the information? Maybe, maybe not. But again, Ellie robbed her of her True agency. Not dissimilar in the way that Joel has robbed Ellie of her true agency.

[Hallie Gross]

It's also not like Dina is infallible here, right? Like, she hid a pregnancy for quite a bit of time as well. To not, quote, unquote, be a burden or not slow down Ellie's ride. So it's like. And in that moment, Ellie could have confessed, right? But instead of, she holds it and maintains some resentment that now. Now there's this other thing trying to stop her from getting the revenge. Because really, on some level, she hates herself for losing those years that she could have had with Joel.

[Troy Baker]

That's one thing that I love about the story. The Last of Us is there is no clear hero. There is no clear villain. You simply turn the camera around, and now you're in a completely different perspective, and the person that you thought was the hero is the villain, and the person you thought was the villain was the hero.

[Craig Mazin]

We tend to challenge certainty every step of the way with our characters. When our characters are certain about something, bet on it that we are going to challenge that and break it. I mean, I love how certain Dina is when she tells that story about how her mother and her sister died and how certain she is that she would have tracked that guy down forever. Forever. She is so certain that it makes total moral, clear sense that they should continue to go after Abby. And she says, it doesn't matter. If my people had hurt his people, would that have mattered? No. No. Dina is so clear. And now you hear the truth about what Joel did, which is world shattering. And Deena's like, okay, actually, maybe. Maybe it would matter. And I love that. And I love the way Isabella, the way her face drops, the way she processes. Her first thing is to. Is be logical. So that's why they came, right? She's still in logical. That's Dina's always her first option. But then Ellie says, but I knew what they did. And you just see Dina crumble inside. And I think for Ellie, right there, what's happening is very similar to what happened with Joel on that porch, where Joel says, and now you're gonna turn away from me. Because there are things we do where we think I had to do it, but at the cost of losing the person I care about the most. And I think in this moment, Ellie thinks it's over. And Dina turns away from her exactly the way Ellie turned away from Joel in that car leaving Salt Lake City. It's the same thing.

[Hallie Gross]

Yeah, but the difference is, right in the next scene, Dina immediately extends that olive branch with the maturity that takes Ellie years to get to.

[Craig Mazin]

And I love that moment, too, because she does hobble out and give Ellie this bracelet that says, we're still together. I still am with you, but, oh, boy, I am not happy. Don't think you're gonna get a kiss and a smile. This is bad. And this is one of those things where you know you screwed up. When your spouse says, we'll talk about this later. It's that feeling where you're like, oh, yeah.

[Troy Baker]

With that. We do have this moment between Jesse and Ellie as they're kind of packing up some supplies. And she says, you know, you got any extra 9 millimeter? He just tosses her the bullets. And there's no kindness between the two of them. And you realize they haven't had the talk of, I'm mad at you. We are not cool right now. And this conversation continues as they make their way through Seattle outside. Now, one thing Hallie you brought up is that Ellie is entering her villain era. Then it calls into question this moment where they see the Seraphite being captured by these WLFs. The wolves.

[Jesse]

Ellie.

[Craig Mazin]

What?

[Jesse]

There's six of them, two of us. What do you think would have happened?

[Dina]

He was a fucking kid, Ellie.

[Jesse]

These people are shooting each other, lynching each other, whipping each other's guts out. Even the kids. I am not dying out here. Not for any of them. This is not our war.

[Troy Baker]

Ellie's immediate response is to jump up and protect with violence. That doesn't seem a very villainous thing to do.

[Hallie Gross]

Yeah, let's unpack that moment for a second. Well, sure, Ellie is impulsive and Ellie is a bulldog, right? But at the same time, Ellie is not thinking about Jesse, and she is certainly not identifying with the fact that she's the aggressor. She's identifying with the victim. It's a moment to show a beautiful distinction between the pragmatism of Jesse and the impulsiveness of Ellie. And how, at the end of the day, right, so much of the theme of the Last of Us is like, there are no good choices here. You have to pick what's your priority. And Jesse will always pick family, and Jesse will always pick the future, and Ellie will always pick justice in her own definition of justice.

[Craig Mazin]

Ellie is, of course, not really a hero or a villain. Nobody is in our story. But her impulses to fight against people that are doing what she perceives as wrong when we agree with her is awesome. And when we disagree with her is terrifying. And Hallie's Absolutely right. Part of the issue with Ellie is that there is no hard ground beneath her feet. It's what is happening in front of me right now. Whereas Jesse is about the community. These people, they're not our people. They're killing each other. They're tearing each other's guts out. This is not our war. We have a community. It's called Jackson, and that's what he cares about. And then his sub community, Dina and his child to be born. And the rest of these people are outside of the wall. And that is certainly gonna come up again later in this episode.

[Neil Druckmann]

And that is a conversation that comes up over and over again for us is this idea of what obligation do we have to the rest humanity, if any? And we're not answering that question. We're not putting judgment on it. Just to say he's taken a very practical approach, that if we now rush out of this cover that we have and we try to defend maybe this innocent kid, what happens if we die? What happens to Dina? What happens to Tommy, who's somewhere out there? He's taken all of that into account in a way that Ellie isn't, because she just sees something that she sees as wrong. And we must act. And neither one of them is entirely correct, and neither one of them is entirely wrong.

[Craig Mazin]

It reminds me of Joel talking to Maria in the very first episode when the topic of refugees comes up and there Maria is the one who is the Ellie. We gotta save everybody. And Joel says, we're no good to anybody if we can't help ourselves. If they swamp our lifeboat, we drown. There is this tension always between the two kinds of love. This has been going on since the very beginning of our series, and it will continue all the way to the end. There is the love that goes outward and protects and cares and nurtures, and there is the love that surrounds and defends at any cost. And the truth is, they are both necessary. And figuring out how to balance them is so essential. But it will always drive these debates. How do you properly love somebody so that you can help them without hurting them or hurting yourselves or destroying yourselves in the process?

[Troy Baker]

We haven't had many opportunities to spend some quality time with Jesse, played by young Mazino. And we get to have this moment with him as they're back in the bookstore looking for Tommy. And we find out that he feels the mantle of responsibility that's on Jackson. We've heard people talk about that, but this is the first time we really get to hear and from his perspective.

[Jesse]

So she asked me to go with them instead. And I wanted to more than anything.

[Dina]

Then why didn't you?

[Jesse]

Because the people at Jackson took me in, raised me, cared for me. Because everyone there is counting on me to be the next Maria. Because I was taught to put other people first.

[Craig Mazin]

Jesse has sacrificed. His first instinct is to sacrifice, to give. So he could have done a very selfish thing. He could have followed love. He could have left. And he gave up a chance, maybe for, I guess, what you would call happiness in that world. Because of a sense of duty to others. And that is something that Ellie simply doesn't have. And in this moment, I think you would be excused if you thought Jesse's absolutely right and Ellie's wrong. But when she challenges him, he makes a great point. She's alive because of him. She's alive because of his sense of duty. So whatever it is that she wants to do to punish Abby, to close this circle, to put her grief to bed, all of it, any of it, is all by the grace of his sense of duty. And that's something that Ellie's gonna have to ponder, I would imagine. Well, if she were capable of a lot of pondering, which you get the sense she's not.

[Troy Baker]

She also doesn't get a. A lot of opportunity to do that because this moment between the two of them is interrupted by voices on the radio that let us know that there's a sniper. Jesse automatically assumes this is Tommy. Ellie is distracted by something else. She looks out the window and she sees the Ferris wheel.

[Craig Mazin]

So Hallie came up with this idea that when Ellie was torturing Nora, Nora, in her sort of pain and half infected delusion, said two words, wheel and whale. And those words make no sense. And here the mystery is solved. The wheel is the Ferris wheel. The whale is painted on the side of aquarium. That's where Abby is. At long last. Ellie has figured it out right in the moment that duty calls and duty says, you go find Tommy, save him, and then get the wounded pregnant woman out of Seattle, bring her back to safety, and let us return to our lives. That is the Eagle Scout course of action.

[Neil Druckmann]

Ellie has a different duty at this point, which is to find Joel's killers and bring them to justice. And specifically Joel's killer. And in her brain, the math that she's doing, that is more important. And, you know, a couple episodes ago, I think we talked about this metaphor that we talked quite a bit when writing the game and the show for Ellie, which is addiction. We just saw Ellie with Dina, and Ellie has accepted we have to Go back, let's go get Tommy and leave. She's accepted that and now she's relapsed completely because the drug has re entered her system. Abby is right there. She's within reach.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah, it's easy to say, I'm not gonna drink again when there's no more alcohol around. But say you're not gonna drink when somebody puts a shot in front of you. Now there's a challenge. And I think that, yes, Ellie would have gone with Jesse to save Tommy. That's why she's out there on the road with him, is to find Tommy and save him and bring him back. And she would have because there was nothing else to do. Her clue path was over and ended. And when she realizes, ah, there is now a chance to do that, it just watching her rationalization. Ellie.

[Dina]

Oh my God, Ellie.

[Jesse]

It wasn't in the best interest of the community.

[Dina]

Fuck the community. All you do is talk about the fucking community, you hypocrite. You think you, you're good and I'm bad. You let a kid die today, Jesse. Which is why he wasn't in your community. Let me tell you about my community. My community was beaten to death in front of me while I was forced to fucking watch. So don't look at me like you're better than me or like you'd do anything differently if you were in my shoes, because you're not. And you wouldn't.

[Craig Mazin]

So this scene is just one of those moments where Bella Ramsey transcends for me as a performer. Because what we asked her to do is nearly impossible. We asked her to have a revelation, then enter a state of denial that is somewhat convincing. So it's not insane sounding like rationalizers rationalize. They come up with good arguments even though there's something else underneath them. And then when she's called on, it turns it around on Jesse in a way that actually is quite impressive and true and meaningful because Jesse did let a kid die. And he's not perfect. His method, his moral choices are his choices, but they are not superior to hers. They're just different. And watching that unfold and then seeing Jesse's heart kind of break because he feels like she's gone, I've lost her. Is just the two of them just did incredible work there.

[Neil Druckmann]

But she's such a hypocrite in that moment.

[Troy Baker]

Right?

[Neil Druckmann]

Because which community is Tommy in?

[Troy Baker]

Exactly?

[Hallie Gross]

Which community is Jesse in? Should he be out by himself?

[Troy Baker]

Well, like you said, it's denial. She goes, you don't know that. It's him. You don't know that. That's Tommy.

[Craig Mazin]

What is so interesting about Ellie to me is that she is, on the one hand, nowhere near as morally pure as somebody like Jesse. Jesse. We look at Jesse in the way he behaves, the selfless, kind of Christlike way, and we think that is the way to go. But even Jesse himself later on is going to point out that there is a purity to Ellie. And the purity to Ellie is that circumstance will never matter. That once she zeroes in, she will not stop. She'll never, ever hear an argument that sways her. Jesse could hear an argument that sways him. Jesse didn't vote for her. I mean, that's quite a revelation. I voted no because Jesse does the math, the moral math, and it was going to end up costing more lives than it was worth. And so the math was, I don't want to send people out there to Seattle, but Ellie will never do that math.

[Neil Druckmann]

I mean, the calculation here is. And the. The argument, the crux of this entire story is that does life trump justice? And there is no right answer here. There is just a cost to either side of this equation.

[Troy Baker]

Ellie makes her choice and she decides to leave one community in search of justice. And she makes her way to the aquarium. And on the way that, she sees this army of wolves that are apparently on a mission. And that can kind of bring us back to another character that's been lurking in the outskirts here, and that's Isaac. And Isaac has this conversation with one of his soldiers, and he says, by.

[Craig Mazin]

The time the sun comes up tomorrow, there's a very good chance you'll be dead. There's an even better chance I'll be dead. So then what happens to that entire fucking army out there who, despite their badass name, are very much sheep? Who leads them? Who secures our future? It was supposed to be her. There's clearly something going on tonight from the very beginning. We hear on the radio, we're going radio silent. Nobody's on the radio tonight. It's happening. Basically, it's on. And then park comes in to talk to Isaac and yep, we're prepared. Everyone's ready. And the storm is going to be even bigger than we thought. It is a convergence zone, which is such a. I love convergence. It's just a perfect word for what's happening in this episode. And that is apparently going to help them with their. Whatever this operation is. But it feels like whatever's going on tonight, it is the culmination of a very long war. And we will not see that war. Tonight, we are going to see some indications that it has begun, but we will not see it tonight.

[Troy Baker]

Happens in the background as she steals the boat. We see this massive explosion, this fireball in the sky. It was great.

[Craig Mazin]

I think it's safe to say that Isaac and his story. And we also get another glimpse of the prophet in this episode. The prophet has been painted on the wall again, but this time the prophet looks different. So what's going on there? As Elie says? Is there more than one of them? This is a good question. But the background war, that has been a bit vague and it's really been background for Elie and Dina clearly is about to become foreground as we proceed to our next season.

[Troy Baker]

Well, do we talk about this woman who appears with this child? And there's this weird power dynamic that we see something that we've borne witness to with someone else being hung up and cut up in two previous episodes. Now Ellie finds herself in the same position where the noose is around her neck and her feet are dangling just above the ground. And the kid, this young child is the one who gives the thumbs down.

[Craig Mazin]

Is the most heartbreaking part of, I think, of war and of extremism and extreme tribalism is the way that innocent children are indoctrinated and they don't have a chance to live in a world where they don't immediately demonize some other out group. It never happens. This moment where this mom looks at this little boy, it's not like, hey, what should we do? It's more like, what do we do now, son?

[Neil Druckmann]

Yes.

[Craig Mazin]

And he's like, this is what we do. We cut them open. And it is terrifying when children. It's just like, that's the roughest thing. When you see any kind of extremist group of religious extremists, racial extremists. When you see a kid in a KKK outfit, it's just like, oh, God, what are we doing? Why would we do.

[Neil Druckmann]

It's another example of that sense of community. This is something that we had in the game and cut it out because of time constraints. Where Elie got swept away to where the scars, the seraphites live. And it achieves multiple things. And it was important to include this. It's like one. It just shows. Here's another community that's so xenophobic that they are about to kill someone that would have fought for them moments earlier, that wanted to protect one of them, but they are not even curious to interrogate any of that. This is an Outsider. And the outsider must be killed. Isn't that right, child? And right. The child agrees immediately. And the other thing this scene achieves is it shows again Ellie's obsessive desperation to find Abby. It's as if the universe is telling her, stop. Look how far you've come. You've almost died. Stop. Go back. And what does Ellie do? She keeps going to the aquarium.

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[Troy Baker]

She makes her way to the aquarium, and she doesn't find Abby there. This show and this story are no stranger to tragic endings and visceral moments of violence. Specifically this one, though, was. We have to talk about this. This scene with Owen and Mel. We'll save Mel for just a second. I want to talk about this moment with Owen. He's caught off guard. And we have seen this. Be someone who's very tactical, who's. Someone who is very pragmatic. He understands how Abby works. He's caught unaware by Ellie.

[Craig Mazin]

She's gonna kill us either way. No, I won't.

[Dina]

Because I'm not like you. Three, two.

[Craig Mazin]

I. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll show you.

[Dina]

Slowly.

[Craig Mazin]

Slowly.

[Troy Baker]

And he makes this declaration, she's going to kill us anyway.

[Craig Mazin]

He's wrong. And when Ellie says, no, I won't, because I'm not like you. A, yes, she is.

[Neil Druckmann]

Also. She's wrong.

[Hallie Gross]

She's worse. She's worse.

[Craig Mazin]

Except B, I believe her. I think he believes her. I think it's clear to him she's after Abby. That's who she wants. She didn't want to kill Nora. She wanted Nora to tell her where Abby was. She doesn't want to kill them. She wants to know where Abby is. But what's fascinating to me is it's that moment where Owen, played so beautifully by Spencer Lord here, turns to Mel and he says, I'll tell her. I'll tell her. And he looks at Mel and his face is half shadowed. One eye. And that one eye has tears in it. You can see it. It's welling up. Because he's made a choice. And his choice has to do with his love for Abby, where he is not pragmatic, where in the end, no matter what she does, no matter how many bad choices she makes, he loves her. And we're going to get into that story because clearly there's a whole other plot going on here. I mean, when Ellie shows up, Mel and Owen are having an argument about what to do next. What to do next about what? Well, we'll find out. But what we know here is that Owen's dedication to Abby runs very, very deep, whereas Mel's dedication to Abby doesn't exist at all. Mel's dedication, turns out, is to someone, something else.

[Neil Druckmann]

I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but it's important to note that our two moral characters, the most moral characters in the story are Owen and Jesse. And both of these characters have tied themselves to impulsive characters that believe in justice at any cost and ultimately that cost their own lives.

[Craig Mazin]

Yes. If Jesse were in that same situation where somebody was saying, where Abby says, tell me where Ellie is. If you tell me where Ellie is, I'll let you live. And Jesse thought he had a 10% chance of killing Abby to save Ellie's life, Jesse would have done the exact same thing. It is an act of service. And I think that's what's so heartbreaking about this, is that I remember talking with Spencer and he was like, how fast should I get that gun out? And I'm like, as fast as you can. But, you know, this is high risk. Like, it is a one in a million chance, but you're going to take it anyway.

[Troy Baker]

We've seen Ellie be very skilled with a gun. The gun goes off in her hand.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah.

[Troy Baker]

And there's this immediate look of, oh, no. And you see Owen drop. But that's the prelude to the real moment that's about to happen. I don't know if I will ever recover from Ariella's performance.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah.

[Troy Baker]

I don't even know how to begin.

[Craig Mazin]

How deep?

[Dina]

Deeper than you think.

[Craig Mazin]

Which way?

[Sponsor]

Which way?

[Dina]

Love transverse. Transverse.

[Troy Baker]

What?

[Dina]

I don't know what that means. Love transverse. Love transverse.

[Craig Mazin]

What?

[Sponsor]

Tell me what that means.

[Craig Mazin]

Let's sing a song of praise to Ariella Barrera for a second. Because, you know, Mel as a character in our first episode and our second episode kind of was a punching bag for Abby. I mean, in episode two, Abby takes like three different shots at her, including, Shut up. Poor Mel, who is a doctor, who is good, who is trying to save the wounded, who's trying to save Dina, who is crying while Abby torments Joel. She's been the recipient of all of this stuff. And we maybe don't have yet a full sense of who she is. Obviously, we can see at the end of the episode we're gonna be reliving these days, and we are gonna get to know Mel better. But here in this moment, what Ariella does is so remarkable in a scene like this, as a human being, given the circumstances of what she's trying to do, she would cry. And I remember saying to her, but you can't, can't. You can't, because you have to become a parent here. And Ariel isn't a parent. And I was like, here's the parent lesson. When your kid is in danger, you don't have anything except save mode. And you're a doctor, and you are going to be a doctor. And that's why it is so, so heartbreaking.

[Neil Druckmann]

Curious Troy, doesn't that direction sound oddly familiar? Do you remember, like, when you were playing Sarah's death and our conversation was like, only worry about saving her. Don't worry about mourning her. Don't worry about being sad. As a parent, all you can care about is, how do I save her? Even though you cannot.

[Troy Baker]

The one thing that is most prevalent about the Last of Us is how we've talked about how even in his death, Joel casts a long shadow on the story, but so does Sarah. And that moment, for me, I don't think I understood because I wasn't a father. And I understand in this moment now with Mel, exactly what you're talking about. It's my life is forfeit. It doesn't matter. We have to act quickly.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah. And this is where Joel and Ellie are different and where Joel's behavior and Ellie's behavior are different. It's also where Joel's behavior and Mel's behavior is different than Abby's behavior. The two people who are the most alike in this story are Ellie and Abby because they don't have children. They are not making new life. They are pursuing death as punishment. But Joel pursued death to save a life, to preserve love for another person. And Mel is doing everything she can in her final 30 seconds to save a life. And there is a fundamental difference there. It doesn't make somebody better or worse if they are a parent. But there is a knowledge or at least a change of perspective and interest as a parent that occurs. And it is going to be interesting to see, particularly with Abby, if that's going to change. We know it's changing with Dina. So this idea of motherhood, you know, we said, like, season one was all about fatherhood. Season two is about motherhood and mothers struggling to protect their own child. Creation of life, preservation of life. Very different kind of love than the kind that Ellie and Abby seem to be showing.

[Troy Baker]

Hallie, you have a penchant for writing savage scenes.

[Hallie Gross]

Oh, thank you.

[Troy Baker]

This one is different than it is in the game. It did go a step beyond. How did you approach this scene?

[Hallie Gross]

We were talking about this scene, and then Craig calls up and he goes, I have a crazy idea.

[Troy Baker]

So unlike Craig, Hear me out.

[Hallie Gross]

What if she tells her to cut it out? And I'm like, girl.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah, I have a crazy idea. What if we took a very, very traumatic scene from the game and made it even more traumatic? And I'm not doing it on purpose.

[Troy Baker]

Maybe a little bit.

[Craig Mazin]

Maybe a little.

[Troy Baker]

Go on, Neil. I see that hand.

[Neil Druckmann]

If I may. Sometimes we write these things and an audience might say, why? Like, it's so upsetting. Why would you do this? Is it just to upset us? And the answer is no. You know, when we were working on the game and Hallie and I were initially conceived of this moment, you know, we look at it as a very kind of almost like an engineering problem. And to say there's a metaphor to this story about the cycles of violence that happen in the world that we live in. The best stories give you, like, a blueprint to life and how to look at it. And again, we're not trying to put judgment on it, but often in these conflicts of tribalism, of communities doing worse and worse things to each other. And here it's represented as individuals. But you could apply the same thinking to large groups of people. There's often people caught in the crossfire. And we have this, like, really chilling term called collateral damage. And this is a metaphor for that in this pursuit of justice. And Ellie, in many ways, is just in what she's pursuing. People get caught in a crossfire. And here it's a child that was about to be born.

[Troy Baker]

Why doesn't Ellie cut out the baby? And instead you see her hand just above Mel's belly and there's no contact?

[Craig Mazin]

Well, because it's too late. I mean, one of the things about Ellie that we sometimes forget, and this is where I have an enormous amount of empathy for this character, is that even though she was 14 and now. 19. 19. She's grown up. No, she hasn't. She's 19. She's 19 years old.

[Neil Druckmann]

Yeah.

[Craig Mazin]

And there is a woman bleeding out at a rapid pace. She has 30 seconds to put a knife into a pregnant woman's. Belly and do surgery. And this woman who's losing oxygen rapidly, she's going away. And as she goes away, she's losing the ability to translate medical to English. Low transverse. What does that mean? Ellie is in a panic. And Bella portrays this so beautifully to me. She's desperate to do the right thing, but she. How deep which way? Because what if you stick the knife? I would be terrified that I would kill the baby myself with a knife.

[Hallie Gross]

I know. She should have done it, though. She should have just done it. Do you know what I mean?

[Craig Mazin]

Like, just stab it in there.

[Hallie Gross]

Well, I think that that's the right. Like, all drama, when done well, is about a character struggling through choice. Right? And I. To me, watching that scene, I found myself yelling, just fucking do it. Just risk it. Even if you're wrong, at least you're giving this kid a chance.

[Craig Mazin]

I think she's terrified.

[Hallie Gross]

Yeah, I agree.

[Craig Mazin]

I think she's terrified. I think she's a child in that moment who is terrified. And then it's too late because Mel's dead. And when the mother's dead, the baby is dead, it's too late. She failed.

[Hallie Gross]

It's shock. Yeah.

[Craig Mazin]

She wants to, but she can't.

[Neil Druckmann]

Look, we're talking about willpower. Even if, you know that's the right thing to do, to have the willpower to stab another human being in the stomach and cut, like an incision big enough to pull a baby out, that requires an enormous amount of willpower that most people don't have. But what's interesting about Ellie, most people also don't have the willpower to torture someone.

[Craig Mazin]

Yes.

[Neil Druckmann]

And yet Ellie did that with Nora.

[Craig Mazin]

Yes.

[Neil Druckmann]

So what does that say about Ellie's programming? You know, we've been talking, like, how people are programmed. Here's an instance where she has insane willpower and she's lacking. And she freezes. She chokes.

[Craig Mazin]

She chokes. This is the same girl who is in a cellar underneath a Cumberland Farms, casually making an incision into an infected man's head out of curiosity, like a kid pulling the wings off a fly. And here with this human being that she feels horrible guilt over because she did not intend for this to happen. She can't do it because she's terrified and because she doesn't have the willpower. And it is a failure. And it is choking, and that's why she's sobbing. It's like, I killed you. I killed your baby and I choked and I wasn't smart enough and I wasn't capable enough, and look at the ruin I have caused. And guess what? I have no idea where Abby is.

[Hallie Gross]

Yeah.

[Craig Mazin]

She has failed on every possible level. And this is right after an episode where Joel tells her, I hope you do a little bit better than me. She's doing worse than he did.

[Hallie Gross]

This moment is the true confrontation that she's not Joel. Cause Joel, you know, Joel would have been like, well, fuck it, let's do it. Like, let's go. And she can't. She's just. To what the guys are saying, she's just not mature enough.

[Craig Mazin]

She regresses. Like Eugene regressed in the last episode because she's like. She becomes a child.

[Neil Druckmann]

Correct.

[Craig Mazin]

And that is like a night to me, literally a nightmare. I can imagine a nightmare where I'm being asked to do this, and I don't know what this person is saying. They're talking to me in medical gibberish, and they're dying in front of me. And it's. Seconds are ticking away and my hand is shaking, and I don't know, literally. Ellie doesn't literally know where in the belly the baby is. It's somewhere in there. How deep? Deeper than you think. How is that helpful? The problem is Mel's dying, and it is such a horrible thing for Ellie to carry forward. And we know that waiting for Ellie back in a theater is the one person that she loves still in this world who is pregnant.

[Troy Baker]

Tommy interrupts this scene, and he and Jesse carry them away back to the theater where Dina is. And there's a look on Ellie's face that immediately tells Tommy she's not okay. And I don't know if she's going to be okay. And where we think that we found refuge, where we think that we found safety and protection inside this theater, we find that it's not.

[Craig Mazin]

Look for the devil. The devil's going to find you. And Abby seemingly is not like Ellie in that Abby is incredibly competent. We don't know yet how she found them, but we know that Abby must have found Owen and Mel. And you can only imagine what Abby thought when she saw that. And when Abby shows up in a theater, she doesn't screw up. She gets Tommy on the ground as a hostage. She shoots Jesse the instant he comes out the door. She is in complete control of the situation. And at last, here they are, Abby and Ellie, staring at each other in this incredible confrontation. And obviously, we're not done with this scene, but it is gorgeous acting by Caitlin Deaver and Bella Ramsey here, particularly because we can see now in Ellie that all of her desire at last to punish is gone, at least for now, because she's lost too many people. She lost whoever Mel's baby was. She got them killed. She got Mel killed. She got Jesse killed. She cannot bear to see Tommy killed or God help her. Dina, who's somewhere back there in the theater.

[Troy Baker]

Where is Dina? Is the first thing. Where is Dina?

[Craig Mazin]

Well, Dina's sleeping in the dressing room, but where? Let's see what happens.

[Troy Baker]

Abby looks at this showdown moment between her and Ellie, and she says, I let you live. I let you live, and you wasted it. Gunshot slammed to black. And then where we started, Seattle, day one, baby.

[Craig Mazin]

Woof.

[Troy Baker]

What a great way. What made you choose to end season two with this? There's a whole palate cleanser, not only starting with this. Wake up with Abby. We're day one in Seattle. It's bright, it's beautiful. We're not in the midst of the storm. And one of my favorite things, this amazing song. Yeah. Burden in my hand. Talk to me about, like, this is how we're gonna go out on season two.

[Neil Druckmann]

Well, I think we've talked about it in the podcast. If not, we've definitely talked about it in interviews where we were joking that it's like, oh, it's weird that a story structure is a spoiler because we've talked a lot about and fans have debated whether we would stick to the structure of the game or not. And in many ways, we've deviated. There's certain events we've moved up, and we've talked about the reasons of why we've moved them up. But on the whole, there is thought behind this madness, and it's hard to talk about without, you know, kind of spoiling exactly what our plans are.

[Craig Mazin]

But.

[Neil Druckmann]

But there's a reason why we got to this confrontation between our two. These two forces that we've been waiting for them to collide with one another and that we stop and we go back in time and we're signaling to you there's really important stuff about Abby's side of the story. There's all this context that is required for us to move forward with that confrontation between these two characters. And then ultimately we could step away from this and say, ah, this is what it's all about. And the game was constructed in this very meticulous way to communicate this idea. And now you're seeing on the broad scope of things, we're gonna do something very similar with this show.

[Troy Baker]

What are you most excited about setting up for season three?

[Craig Mazin]

I'll tell you What I'm most excited about this season was narratively really hard to do. It was hard to pull off, and I believe we did. And I think, you know, judging from the critical reaction and the audience reaction, it seems like we did. It's very hard to pull off because it was dark and it was looping around and heading towards a cliffhanger. And that's a different kind of story than the one we told in season one. Season one had a beginning, middle and end because it was adapting a game. And I think some people maybe saw this season and went, wait, why isn't there a full ending to it? Well, usually television series don't have full endings. There is somebody running in and saying, she's alive. You know, and then you cut and it's like, oh, my God, she's alive. I need to get the second season. And that's what happens here. But what I'm really excited about for season three is that it is not having to loop back and around, really, or head to a cliffhanger. There is going to be a pretty clear forward driving with a brand new hero. Somebody that. I think it's funny. I was watching my wife watch the second episode, and her concern for Abby when Abby was crawling under that fence was so palpable because you immediately identify with that person. You want them to live. Yes. And then the way by the end of that episode, she was like, I do not like this. Abby. Abby needs to pay. Well, that's the exercise that the Last of Us, Part two does so beautifully. That's what Hallie and Neil, I think, did brilliantly with that game. And that's what we're gonna start to feel as we head into season three. But before we can do that, there is this interesting reset and finding Abby there sleeping peacefully and being woken up and heading out to the stadium, which I love. This is a great thing. Sometimes these guys do things in the game and I'm like, oh, this is gonna be really hard to do in. They just casually put them in an abandoned stadium and we're like, oh, oh.

[Troy Baker]

Sure, we'll just find that.

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah. So we'll be working on a backlot for a while, you know, months from now. But that reset and the sun being out, and the question is, how do I feel about this? And did Ellie just die? And where is Dina? And what's gonna happen to Tommy? And why am I going back to day one? And where was Abby these three days while Ellie was searching for her? And how did she find Ellie in that theater? And most Importantly, who is she with on the journey? Well, I would say stay tuned, but it's going to be a while.

[Troy Baker]

Answer those questions.

[Neil Druckmann]

I guess the promise is we're going to answer all those questions.

[Craig Mazin]

We give you a promise that you will understand not only what is going on between the Seraphites and the wolves, but how it started. Who is the prophet? Where was Abby? Why does Isaac think Abby is the future of the WLF?

[Neil Druckmann]

What is down on B3?

[Troy Baker]

What are the last of us?

[Craig Mazin]

What are the last of us? Troy, you asked about the song, the final song, Burden in My Hand by Soundgarden.

[Troy Baker]

Yes.

[Craig Mazin]

I love that song. And there is something in the chorus that I find rather haunting. He says, I shot my love today Would you cry for me? I lost my head again Would you lie for me? And there's something in my mind in this story about love and the things we do for the people we care about. What is so fascinating to me is that it's so easy to see how if Abby and Ellie had grown up next to each other, they would love each other deeply and care about each other deeply and be loyal to each other in the most deep ways because they are so similar. And there's something about who is the light and who is the shadow and just the cosmic sadness of it. And that relationship is the one that will continue to haunt us now as we go forward.

[Troy Baker]

You know what you've left the audience with, and that's a bunch of questions that we're going to wait until season three to answer. But what are you left with? What are your final thoughts as we. As we wrap up at least this conversation?

[Neil Druckmann]

Look, I always worry that when I say this, it doesn't come across as genuine or I'm just kind of repeating myself. But I have such gratitude, you know, now it's been, what, 12 years ago when we released the Last of Us as a video game and didn't know what kind of impact this game would have. We just knew that at Nahida, we made something that we really believed in. It felt really special to us. And this story has resonated with so many people. And then, you know, getting the chance to do a sequel and revisit this world and these characters that we love so much. And that had its own impact. And it has this whole story of how it came out and the controversy around it. And it came out during COVID It's like there's certain milestones that you have in your life. I know when, like, my kids were born, and I know where I was when we hit certain milestones on these games and then to team up with Craig and HBO and get to do it again and revisit this world and these characters. And I'm like, oh, my God, I get a chance to live with these characters some more. I love these characters so much. And now we had a successful season. And the reason why I like success is not because of the money or anything else that comes with it. It's because it gives us the chance to do it again. We love what we do so much. I just feel such gratitude that people are showing up and are engaging with the work and are talking about it, are now here listening to yap about this stuff. It's just an incredible position to be in, and it's why we work so hard and it's why we're now looking forward to this next season and to finish the story and do it properly.

[Craig Mazin]

What I'm left with at the end of this is a sense of great joint accomplishment. This was an absolute beast. Way bigger to mount and create in real life than season one. And we all did it together. But the size of this family, our crew, I mean, not just me and Neil and Hallie, but then spreading out to all of our producers and our cast and our crew. I wish people could see how much work everybody puts into this day after day after day. And of course, this is pretty intimidating now to think about doing it yet again. But that's what I said at the end of season one. I was like, I don't know if I'm ever gonna be able to do that again. I don't remember. So, okay, well, here we are at the end of season two. I'm like, I don't know how we're ever going to be able to do that again. But I've got Neil, I've got Hallie, I've got Jack and Cecil and Carolyn. I've got Bella. And we had Pedro, which was amazing, you know, for the time we had him. And we've got Caitlyn, and we've got our whole cast and our crew. And I just know that it begins again. And I love a beginning. What can I say? As much as I love an ending.

[Hallie Gross]

What I'm left with is I look at every job as an opportunity to learn something new. And I think for me, season two and cracking back into the story was an opportunity to learn more, learn more from people who I really respect, get to see how the story is interpreted in a new medium, and I'm excited to get to do it. Again. And I hope the characters resonate with everyone else as much as they've helped me sort of reflect on myself and heal parts of myself. And I'm excited for the journey.

[Troy Baker]

I learned so much. I mean, again, like you said, Neil, this has been a story that I've been a part of now for almost 15 years, and for you it's been much longer. And for Craig it's been a long time. Hallie is you as well. But for me, it's being able to sit and observe this story with all of its many facets. I've watched each of these episodes multiple times now, and every time I pick up something new and in this conversation I've learned something new about these characters in this story. And that's where we're going to leave this conversation, at least for now. But until we pick this conversation back up again, thank you for being a part of this one. Thank you for continuing to talk about this. Thank you for continuing to work, watch and celebrate this story and these characters with us. And until season three, endure and survive. This has been the podcast for HBO's the Last of Us. Our senior producer is Emmanuel Hapsis. Our producer is Elliot Adler, and Darby Maloney is the editor. This episode was mixed by Raj Makhija. Our executive producers are Gabriel Maria Lewis and Bari Finkel. Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Allison Cohen, Aaron Kelly and Kenya Reyes from the MAX podcast team. Production music is courtesy of HBO and you can watch episodes of the Last of Us on max.

[Sponsor]

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