Season 1, Episode 2 - “Infected”

Summary

HBO's The Last of Us Podcast: Season 1, Episode 2 - “Infected”

Release Date: January 23, 2023

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Introduction

In the second episode of HBO's official companion podcast for The Last of Us, host Troy Baker delves deep into the intricacies of Season 1, Episode 2 titled “Infected.” Joined by the show's co-creators, Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann, and actress Anna Torv, the conversation unpacks pivotal moments, creative decisions, and the emotional weight behind Tess's tragic demise. This episode offers listeners an intimate look into the adaptation process from the beloved video game to the critically acclaimed television series.

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Transition from Game to TV: Bringing the Digital to the Practical

Neil Druckmann, who directed this episode, reflects on the monumental shift from the video game's digital landscape to the tangible set of the TV series.

"[00:01:40] Neil Druckmann: It's one of the highlights of my life. I sometimes tell people it's like, oh, it's as if they made Disneyland just for me."

Druckmann emphasizes the collaborative spirit of the TV production, highlighting the caliber of talent involved. Unlike the game’s performance capture technology, TV production demands meticulous planning and practical effects, which Druckmann describes as both challenging and rewarding.

"[02:33] Neil Druckmann: The big difference is you have to plan everything ahead of time on the TV show in a way you don't in the game."

He further elaborates on the necessity of pre-production meetings with various departments to ensure each frame aligns with the envisioned narrative, fostering a sense of camaraderie and collective achievement among the team.

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Casting Choices: Pedro Pascal as Joel

The casting of Pedro Pascal as Joel sparked much discussion, particularly regarding the character's portrayal and emotional depth.

Anna Torv underscores the importance of casting in shaping the narrative:

"[04:34] Anna Torv: Casting seems like, wow. Really? That's on the same level as writing and shooting? Absolutely."

The chemistry between Pascal and Torv is highlighted as a cornerstone of Tess and Joel's dynamic. When discussing a pivotal scene where Tess reveals her infection, both Troy Baker and Anna Torv express their admiration for Pascal's nuanced performance.

"[05:54] Anna Torv: It's so good."
"[05:56] Troy Baker: What he did was have such this beauty to see Joel be afraid."

Torv explains how Pascal's portrayal of Joel balances heroism with vulnerability, making the character’s reactions feel genuine and heartfelt.

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Scene Analysis: Tess's Demise

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Tess's tragic end, a moment both harrowing and beautifully executed.

Tess’s Character and Vulnerability

Torv delves into Tess’s complex character, emphasizing her hidden vulnerabilities beneath a tough exterior.

"[06:04] Anna Torv: We wanted to undercut heroism with vulnerability, to keep the characters grounded and relatable."

This approach ensures that heroism does not overshadow the characters' human flaws, maintaining a connection with the audience.

Tess’s Final Moments

The conversation turns to the impactful scene where Tess reveals she’s been bitten. Druckmann explains the intention behind not allowing the actors to watch the game to preserve originality in performances.

"[07:30] Neil Druckmann: We're asking the cast to make it their own. Great performances come from the inside, not from the outside."

Torv describes the meticulous effort to convey Tess’s desperation and hope, culminating in a heart-wrenching display of emotion.

"[15:50] Anna Torv: Tess is in mother mode, trying to protect Ellie, believing she might be their only hope."

The scene’s emotional weight is compounded by the visual storytelling—using lighting and camera angles to juxtapose beauty with horror.

"[27:13] Troy Baker: The shot is soft on Tess as infected spill into the building, creating a hauntingly beautiful yet terrifying moment."

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Opening Montage and World Building

One of the standout discussions revolves around the episode's opening montage, diverging from the game to offer a global perspective of the outbreak.

"[08:05] Anna Torv: We wanted to show the world beyond America, illustrating that the pandemic was a global catastrophe."

This departure enriches the narrative by presenting a broader context, highlighting different regions and their responses to the crisis.

"[09:24] Neil Druckmann: The game was an Americana love letter, but the show consciously chose to explore the global impact, never leaving the perspective of the United States."

The montage sets the tone for the series, emphasizing the widespread devastation and the varied human responses to the catastrophe.

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Design and Portrayal of Clickers

The introduction of clickers, a formidable enemy in both the game and the show, is another focal point of the episode.

Torv explains the creative decision to use practical effects over CGI to enhance realism.

"[19:14] Anna Torv: We wanted to find prosthetics to physically portray clickers, making their presence more tangible and terrifying."

The team’s commitment to authenticity is evident in their choice of performers and the intricate prosthetics designed by the Gowers, ensuring that each clicker movement and sound is both disturbing and believable.

"[19:05] Troy Baker: When you see them moving and hearing screeches, it just heightens the sense of terror."

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Themes: Heroism vs. Vulnerability

A recurring theme discussed is the balance between heroism and vulnerability, particularly through Joel's character arc.

"[07:28] Anna Torv: Heroism exists on screen in the absence of vulnerability, then you begin to become unmoored from reality."

The creators aimed to present heroism grounded in real human emotions, preventing characters from becoming one-dimensional heroes and instead portraying them as flawed individuals navigating a broken world.

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Character Development: Joel and Tess

The evolving relationship between Joel and Tess is meticulously unpacked, highlighting moments of trust, conflict, and emotional turmoil.

Torv shares insights into Tess’s internal struggles and her influence on Joel’s decisions.

"[15:50] Anna Torv: Tess is trying to convince Joel to save Ellie, representing a shift from his personal grief to a broader sense of hope."

Druckmann and Mazin discuss the narrative choices that emphasize Tess’s desperation and Joel’s increasing cynicism, setting the stage for future conflicts and character development.

"[16:25] Craig Mazin: Tess knows how to influence Joel, pushing him towards actions he might otherwise avoid."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on the storytelling techniques that blend horror with emotional depth, ensuring that each character's journey is both gripping and relatable. The creators express pride in the adaptation’s ability to honor the source material while introducing fresh perspectives and expanding the narrative universe.

"[33:14] Neil Druckmann: Trusting actors to deviate from the script led to authentic and unexpected moments that enhanced the story."

Troy Baker encapsulates the essence of the series, emphasizing the balance between suspense and emotional resonance.

"[35:29] Anna Torv: That's TV for you. That's what we do."

Listeners are left with a profound appreciation for the collaborative effort behind The Last of Us TV series, promising more engaging discussions in future podcast episodes.

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Notable Quotes

• "It's one of the highlights of my life. I sometimes tell people it's like, oh, it's as if they made Disneyland just for me." — Neil Druckmann [01:40]

• "Casting seems like, wow. Really? That's on the same level as writing and shooting? Absolutely." — Anna Torv [04:34]

• "We're asking the cast to make it their own. Great performances come from the inside, not from the outside." — Neil Druckmann [07:30]

• "Heroism exists on screen in the absence of vulnerability, then you begin to become unmoored from reality." — Anna Torv [07:28]

• "Tess is trying to convince Joel to save Ellie, representing a shift from his personal grief to a broader sense of hope." — Anna Torv [15:50]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of the second episode of the series, blending behind-the-scenes insights with deep character analyses. For fans and newcomers alike, it provides a richer understanding of the creative processes that breathe life into the world of The Last of Us.

Transcript

[Neil Druckmann]

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[Craig Mazin]

This is your chance. You get her there, you keep her alive. And you said everything right.

[Troy Baker]

Hello, everybody. This is Troy Baker, your host here for the official the Last of Us podcast from hbo. If you were with us last week, we got to discuss the pilot, an amazing kickoff to this incredible story. And today we will get into episode two, which we hope that you have watched beforehand, because this episode deals with the very untimely, very tragic, but wonderfully beautiful demise of Anna Torv's character, Tess. So right now, let's jump straight into the conversation with co creators of the show, Craig Mazin and Neil Druckman. Neil, you directed this episode. Stepping on stage, seeing something that you had created in a digital medium, now actually becoming tangible. What was that like for you?

[Neil Druckmann]

It's one of the highlights of my life. I sometimes tell people it's like, oh, it's as if they made Disneyland just for me. To me, like, one of the greatest compliments I think an artist could have is when you inspire another artist.

[Troy Baker]

Absolutely.

[Neil Druckmann]

And here I get to work with, like, hundreds of people that are at the top of their game. These are the best people you could get for tv. Like, I got Craig Mason. I got all these people that are like, are so in demand and they want to make the last of us. That's the thing they want to work on for the next 200 day, grueling shoot. Walking on set, I could feel that love. And it made me emotional to see that and feel it.

[Troy Baker]

But I'm curious for you, transitioning from just this white stage with 64 cameras all around and your actors are walking around in these weird spandex suits to now being on a set where the sets are practical, the props are practical, the actors are in wardrobe.

[Neil Druckmann]

The big difference is you have to plan everything ahead of time on the TV show in a way you don't in the game. In the game, we do this performance capture. Everybody's wearing these funny suits with these balls. And then once you get their performance and you kind of have it in 3D, you can place the camera wherever you want. You could change their costume, you could change the set, you could even change the character. Can't do it on a TV show. You can to some degree with vfx, but for the most part, the frame you have is going to be pretty much your final frame. So there's all this prep work you have to do ahead of time. You're meeting with, like, all the department heads, whether it's, like, special effects, whether it's the costume, whether it's the set, whether it's the actors and, like, doing a table read with them, just so then you can get to that moment where, like, okay, everything's ready to go, and you say, action. And then you hold your breath and hope it all comes together in the way that you've envisioned it. And when it does, it's this incredible high that you're like, oh, my God. We all. We all came together. There's this camaraderie, this collaboration that just feels amazing. And I've had this. A bunch of people ask me, what was it like to direct? Is it so crazy? Were you nervous? I'm like, I steal this line from Craig, which is like, I cheated. Because they all love this material so much, and they want to do right by it, and they want to do right by me. Like, everyone is there to help me.

[Anna Torv]

Honestly, I think the only piece of practical directing advice I gave him was to wait a little bit longer before saying cut.

[Neil Druckmann]

That was it.

[Anna Torv]

Because you do. Sometimes you get these little bits of bobs of things that you can sort of keep.

[Ellie]

There's a Firefly base camp somewhere out west with doctors. They're working on a cure.

[Joel]

Mm. I've heard this before.

[Ellie]

And whatever happened to me is the key.

[Joel]

It's the key to finding the vaccine. That's what this is. We've heard this a million times. Vaccines, miracle cures. None of it works. Ever.

[Ellie]

Fuck you, man. I didn't ask for this.

[Joel]

You and me both. This isn't gonna end well. Tess. We need to go back.

[Troy Baker]

Let's talk about the casting of Pedro Pascal.

[Anna Torv]

Well, you know, there's an old saying that you write a movie four times. When you write it, when you cast it, when you shoot it, when you edit it. And casting seems like, wow. Really? That's on the same level as writing and shooting? Editing? Absolutely. So what happens is there's a feedback loop between the actor you cast and the screenplay you're giving them. And the feedback loop is, they said they want to do it because they read that script. You're already on the same page, literally. But, of course, every actor has their own idiosyncrasies. Every actor has their own way of portraying things. And the really good screen actors also have an incredible sense of where they are in the frame and how close the camera is and how subtle they need to be, because the littlest things will get picked up. There's a moment towards the end of this episode where Tess reveals that she's infected. And Pedro, as Joel says, show me. And she takes a step forward before showing him, and he flinches.

[Troy Baker]

It made me angry. I watched it. It made me angry because I was like, fuck, that's so good.

[Anna Torv]

It's so good.

[Troy Baker]

What he. And the thing that he did that I loved is there's such this beauty to see Joel be afraid.

[Anna Torv]

Yes. Which was something we talked about all the time, needing to undercut as much as we could what was just always naturally going to be there, which was heroism. Right. And heroism is real to an extent. But if it exists on screen in the absence of vulnerability, then you begin to become unmoored from reality. And everything we wanted to do was to say to people, listen, we're showing you extraordinary circumstances, a world that's fallen apart, and there are monsters, and all this stuff is happening, but it is applicable to your life right now here in the world that isn't falling apart. And there are no monsters, but there is love and fear and hate. And if you don't undercut heroism with vulnerability, you start to lose touch with that. And what Pedro brought all the time, every day, was that kind of threat of vulnerability. And I also have to say that. And he said so many times that his work with Anna, Anna Torf, who plays Tess, was half of it. Because, I mean, you know this as a performer, it is a dance. You are not alone. And he said, she is so present with me in those scenes. And I think he would be the first person to say that. Part of that instinct to Flinch is. Is how present she was as she moved toward him.

[Troy Baker]

It did not look like a choice.

[Anna Torv]

It was an instinct.

[Troy Baker]

Completely instinctual.

[Neil Druckmann]

People have seen this reaction online, which is like. They're like, why did you tell the actors not to watch the game? And it's for this moment you're describing right now. It's like that Flinch doesn't exist in the game. If he was just trying to copy your performance, the best he could do is a poor imitation of your performance.

[Troy Baker]

Right.

[Neil Druckmann]

Instead, we wanted Pedro and Bell and everybody else as part of the cast to make it their own. And that's why it's like, trust us, that we put everything on the page that needs to be there. We're not asking you to replicate anything else, because great performances come from the inside, not from the outside.

[Troy Baker]

You do this opening. It's Jakarta. What was the reason for it?

[Anna Torv]

Well, one of the things that we can do in television that we can't really do in something that is ongoing, like a movie or a video game where somebody can play all night long if they choose. We have episodes. That means we have starts and stops. And the beautiful thing about stopping is you get to start again. Every start is a new opportunity to reorient people or to disorient people. I mean, I'm particularly fond of disorientation. It was something I've been watching Vince Gilligan do this forever, where you have this five, six minutes of the beginning of every episode of television where the audience is the most open and receptive they'll ever be. They are willing to be confused, mystified, puzzled, as long as you get them ultimately on solid ground. And I think we knew we wanted to give a little bit more of an origin story. We wanted to see what it would really be like at the very, very beginning, because we're all pretty smart about this stuff now. And we wanted to show also that it was global, that this wasn't something that was just happening in America. This was the world.

[Neil Druckmann]

By the way, that is a huge deviation from how we made the game.

[Troy Baker]

Please.

[Neil Druckmann]

In the game. It was. The game is so much. Also has this Americana love letter, and so made a conscious choice that we will never leave the perspective of the United States.

[Anna Torv]

Originally, we had this plan for this montage where we saw all these places in the world and what had happened to them. We just didn't have the money for it. But we thought it would be really interesting to see where it all begins. And as we often do, then immediately ask ourselves the question, what person can we convey this through? And then to take it one step further, what relationship can we create to portray it through? Because I really do believe that that's what people respond to more than anything. And so here you have this little interesting, short relationship between a military officer in charge of, you know, fighting pandemics and a mycologist, a woman who studies fungus. And I'm really fond of that last moment where it was just really one long shot of her sitting on this couch and explaining why we were so screwed.

[Troy Baker]

She says this line in Indonesian, but what it translates to is, bomb, bomb, start bombing, bomb this city and everyone in it.

[Anna Torv]

Right? And it was really important for me to make the audience understand there's nothing you can do at that point that is going to make this better other than the unthinkable.

[Neil Druckmann]

That's one of the beauties of that scene, which again in the game, you walk through what we call the outskirts of the quarantine zone, this area that was bombed to oblivion to try to control this outbreak. And even that didn't work. And here you get to see how could someone reach that decision.

[Troy Baker]

Yes.

[Neil Druckmann]

And you dramatize it and you see characters like. And again, when she has that realization, that moment is like, oh, my God, my time with my family is limited. It's almost out.

[Troy Baker]

I gotta go. What I love in that scene, what she conveys to us is either I've confirmed to you what you know you need to do, or even worse, I've just given you the solution and I can't put that genie back in the bottle and I have to go right now. The reason why I think it works, actually, and why my mind tracked back to that intro is because as we head into the outskirts, Ellie literally has that line.

[Ellie]

It's like a fucked up moon. Is this where they bombed?

[Craig Mazin]

Yeah, they hit most of the big cities like this. They had to slow the spread somehow. Worked here, but it didn't in most places.

[Troy Baker]

There's another beautiful thing that I'd love to talk to you about. The first shot that we see of Ellie, she's bathed in this warm light in the fetal position, cameras spinning over her. And then she wakes up and you have Joel and Tess on high alert.

[Anna Torv]

That was like one of those. That is definitely one of those moments where out of pesky questions, you know? Because if she is infected and they have every reason to believe she is, then they need to be ready to shoot her. And we knew we wanted because again, of the nature of the stop and start episodic television series structure, we had to begin again. That meant sort of. Okay, they went out at night, it's going to be morning. So what happened overnight?

[Ellie]

Do I look like I'm infected?

[Joel]

Show us your arm.

[Ellie]

Yeah. It's not getting any worse, is it?

[Troy Baker]

In the game, we don't do that. Right, exactly. They pull an all nighter and they just fighters. Exactly.

[Anna Torv]

And because a player doesn't have to put the controller down.

[Troy Baker]

Right.

[Anna Torv]

So you guys in games cannot stop, really, until you hit like some major plot point. But for us, we're stopping all the time.

[Neil Druckmann]

So.

[Anna Torv]

Okay, how did that night go? And what I love about that scene is you start to see an interesting difference between Tess and Joel and the Difference is, Tess has hope, which I love because it feels like a surprise. She seems so tough. She seems like she has assimilated into this new world quite well. I mean, she's getting beaten up, and she's like, whatever. And she deals in trades and arms. She runs the show. Between her and Joel, clearly, she's the boss. And here, suddenly, she is expressing hope. And there is something, you know, we had talked about, and we wrote it, we never shot it. And it was a little bit of a backstory of Tess and the fact that Tess had a kid, she had a husband, and she had a son, and they were infected and she had to kill them. She killed her husband, but she could not kill the son. She couldn't do it.

[Neil Druckmann]

She locked him in the basement.

[Anna Torv]

She locked him in the basement, where, theoretically, he's still a clicker because we.

[Neil Druckmann]

Had a cold open where we just, like, the camera, like, pushed on this door and just hear this pounding coming from this basement. And then we cut out. And then later, Tess would tell the story of, like, how she couldn't kill her son. Like, Craig is saying, it didn't fit, but it was fun to think about.

[Anna Torv]

It cuts to something that she has that Joel doesn't want to have again. She is brave enough to dare to.

[Craig Mazin]

Hope she made it through the fucking night.

[Joel]

Joe, it doesn't matter. It's gonna happen sooner or later. All right? We're still close to the wall. We sneak her back into the qz. We find a different way to get the battery.

[Craig Mazin]

This is our best shot.

[Neil Druckmann]

You have to remember that Tess knows how to influence Joel. So, like, when they're sitting in that salon and she's like, it doesn't matter if it's real or not. If the fireflies believe it's real, we get what we want, right? At that point, Tess already believes.

[Anna Torv]

She believes.

[Troy Baker]

Interesting.

[Neil Druckmann]

And she just is telling Joel what he needs to hear in that moment.

[Anna Torv]

Because what she says to him is, she made it through the fucking night. And he goes, you gotta stop talking about this kid like she's got some kind of life in front of her. And Tess says if we bring her back, they're gonna scan her and they're gonna shoot her. So Tess is in mother mode. She's in mother mode. She's trying to protect and keep this kid alive because she's starting to believe that this kid is the real thing. And Joel is absolutely ready to send Ellie back to be killed.

[Craig Mazin]

If we take her back to the qz, someone's gonna notice her arm they're gonna scan her and they'll kill her.

[Joel]

Well, better them than us.

[Neil Druckmann]

By the way, I think Joel is being completely honest when he says better them than us.

[Anna Torv]

Right.

[Neil Druckmann]

He realized already what's going to come down the line was like, I'm going to have to kill this kid.

[Anna Torv]

Right. And I don't want to, but I will.

[Neil Druckmann]

Yeah.

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[Troy Baker]

Quick question for you, Neil. Explain how the infection spreads in the game versus how it spreads in the show.

[Anna Torv]

Yeah.

[Neil Druckmann]

In the game, it has two vectors. So one is some kind of fluid transfer, a bite, or where there's a lot of concentration of cordyceps growth, fungal growth in the environment. There could be spores in the air, and if someone breathes enough of those spores in, they will cough and then become infected as well.

[Troy Baker]

Pinging off of that. Going back to the understanding how this world works, the introduction of the network of cordyceps.

[Anna Torv]

Right.

[Craig Mazin]

They're connected more than you know. The fungus also grows underground. Long fibers like wires, some of them stretching over a mile. You step on a patch of cordyceps in one place and you can wake a dozen infected from somewhere else. Now they know where you are, are. Now they come. You're not immune from being ripped apart. You understand? It's important. I'm trying to keep you alive, by the way.

[Neil Druckmann]

That's one of those ideas that again, in his research, Craig came up with that I was like, that would make for good gameplay. That's one of those I wish we had in the game.

[Troy Baker]

Just tripping over one of those things is such a cool moment. That to me is like, oh, that makes so much sense. It feels like it is always there, like it's an inherent.

[Anna Torv]

Well, that's the best compliment. I mean, if as we create new material that doesn't exist in the game, for it to feel like it had always been there or that it integrates seamlessly. That's the whole point.

[Troy Baker]

One of the things that happens in this episode is we get our first look at clickers.

[Anna Torv]

Yes.

[Troy Baker]

When you get into that moment of like, we're going to show the clickers first. Walk me through that. What's that conversation?

[Anna Torv]

Start with the design first.

[Neil Druckmann]

Sure.

[Anna Torv]

Like, there's just a very simple question. First of all, do we want to do clickers? Obviously, yes. Second, should they look like the clickers from the game? Pretty much, yeah. To the extent that we can reproduce that physically, if you go into a CGI characterization, right off the bat, it just starts to feel like it's not there. So we really wanted to find prosthetics to actually turn somebody into a clicker, which the Gowers did incredible work on. And Paul Spiteri, who works with the Gowers, was just tirelessly putting this stuff on these guys. We found great performers who could move like clickers and even sound like clickers. And from that point, I think our job was to say we know what the experience should be like when you first encounter one of these things, which is terror. And now what we have to do is, within the matrix of that sequence, give the audience some relationship payload. Because while we're doing this, clickers are running around and looking awesome and screeching at us and clawing and biting. Something interesting is happening, which is for the first time, Ellie, who was following Tess out of the QZ and who was being protected by Tess in the salon and who is asking Tess questions about what happened to the world and who doesn't like Joel. Ellie is now suddenly stuck with and relying on Joel. It is the beginning of that.

[Troy Baker]

That's what I put down. I was like, this is the Team up episode.

[Anna Torv]

Yes.

[Troy Baker]

Right. This is when we have this completely silent mouthed conversation where he goes, they can't see, but they can hear, by the way.

[Neil Druckmann]

But that was a reshoot, what you're describing.

[Troy Baker]

Talk to me about what? Okay. How.

[Anna Torv]

Because our creative partners who hadn't played the game, Carolyn Strauss in particular, who was my fellow executive producer on Chernobyl and was the executive producer of Game of Thrones and is a sort of a legend. And she very, in her very simple Carolyn way said, I don't know what the problem is. Like, why. I don't get that they can't see. Oops. Yeah. Like the fact that they don't have eyeballs isn't enough. Like. And I don't necessarily know why they're clicking. So we, we had seated a line when they're walking on the highway where Ellie's talking about, oh, I heard these rumors.

[Ellie]

Like, everyone said the open city was crazy. Like swarms of infected running around everywhere.

[Joel]

Not exactly like that.

[Craig Mazin]

You know, people like to tell stories.

[Ellie]

So there aren't super Infected. That explode fungus spores on you?

[Craig Mazin]

Shit, I hope not.

[Ellie]

Or ones with split open head. Heads that stay in the dark like bats.

[Neil Druckmann]

We had the curse of knowledge. And we're like, that will probably be enough. And then if we set up the action sequence, that plus this equals understanding of how clickers work. Or. Or not.

[Anna Torv]

It did not. And then we went back and just did a little bit of itty bitty resh. So in the game, at some point he sees Ellie breathing spores and being fine. That's proof enough for him. But for us, made sense that in that clicker fight she got bit. We don't know yet that Tess has been bit, but we know that Ellie's been bit and she's not concerned at all.

[Craig Mazin]

You all right?

[Ellie]

Well, I didn't shit my pants. You fucking kidding me? I mean, if it was going to.

[Anna Torv]

Happen to one of us, that was also how we got around to dealing with the proof of Ellie's immunity, because we aren't doing spores. Now Joel is thinking, okay, the first one didn't work, this one's going to work. And then look how angry Tess gets. One of my favorite Anator moments is that she gets angry at him for his inability to imagine that something good could happen.

[Joel]

What about the kid? Maybe the first bite didn't take. And what about the second?

[Craig Mazin]

Why don't you just take the good news? Can you do that? I have to think for once, maybe we can actually win. Just go and gun watch her.

[Anna Torv]

And her anger is not simply because he's being cynical. Her anger is, I've been bit, I'm going to die. Everybody I loved that got bit died. Can you please imagine a world where maybe this doesn't have to happen to me or anyone else ever again? And that's a pretty remarkable thing. And when we get to that rotunda and she reveals that she's been bitten, she goes over to Ellie and she shows Ellie's arm. And we can see the difference. We can see it. So it's proof for us, too. Ellie's not going to be infected. She is immune. And Joel has to absorb the reality of that at that moment. He has no choice otherwise.

[Neil Druckmann]

I just want to touch on that real quick. Which was, to me, this is one of the beauties of this adaptation in that this sequence that Craig described from the moment that Tess is bitten, which is a secret for the viewer and for Joel. So we're maybe a little confused by how big her reaction is, you know, when he's being cynical again and he's surprised that all of a sudden she's like, pushing back on him so hard. These are all elements again that exist in the game in a different way. But the underpinning of all of it was just like Tess. Now there's a growing desperation for this journey to mean something. It's a sort of. It's her last chance at redemption, and she knows it.

[Troy Baker]

We get this beautiful moment between the museum and getting to the Capitol building, where we're really kind of Joel's pov. As we see Tess is way out in front. She is moving at a pace faster than us towards the Capitol building, because what you say, she's already starting to feel the tremble in her right now.

[Anna Torv]

She knows she has maybe an hour or two.

[Troy Baker]

So another difference between the game and the series. I'm curious why. Sure, in the game, the threat is Fedra. They have caught up to us in the Capitol building, but here it's clickers. Why not reintroduce Fedra?

[Anna Torv]

At this point, one of my annoying, pesky questions for sure, which was simply, why would Fedra even be out here? What are they doing? There's nothing there for them to police, really. The whole point of a QZ is we have a big wall. Bad guys out there, we're in here. I get why they police the buffer zone so that people can't get in freely, travel back and forth and bring the infection into the qz. It didn't make much sense to me to have Fedra all the way out there. And we had set up that they were meeting the Fireflies at the State House to tie back into this whole we want to get to Tommy thing. They'll give you a truck, they'll give you a battery. You'll get everything you need. The Fireflies are waiting for you. Also, we wanted a chance to show a different result of being infected, which was not one of mere violence or horror, but rather a sick kind of community. We had set it up already that they're all connected. Ellie says they're connected, and Tess says, more than you know. And now at the end, we had an opportunity to show how connected they were. They can sense that she's one of them. And then, okay, so you're talking about. Then the bad thing happens.

[Troy Baker]

The shot I love is you are over her shoulder, and you are soft on the infected as they're spilling into the building. And there's one that's center punch that stops and turns, and the rest of them kind of slowly stop moving. Ultimately, the question that I have is, what is the Kiss to you. But I would love for you to walk me through that scene one again.

[Neil Druckmann]

It's another one of those beautiful sets that was starting to get built when we started pre production on the episode, and it was ready the day before.

[Troy Baker]

So that's not a building that you found?

[Neil Druckmann]

No, that's a soundstage.

[Anna Torv]

Yep, that's on a soundstage.

[Neil Druckmann]

So one again. It was like a beautiful set. There's an opportunity to get some really beautiful graphic shots of, you know, capturing a wide shot of Tess being alone. Like, she's now left alone and these are the last moments of her life. And like, okay, how do you capture that on screen? How do you make that cinematic? The other thing of, like, you talked about, you know, the crowd of infected coming in and they're being out of focus. And, like, the horror of that, because it puts you more in Tess's mind. And I wish I could tell you, I'm like, oh, I knew exactly, exactly what it's going to look like. And we only captured that version. The reality I didn't know. And I captured two versions.

[Anna Torv]

Cool.

[Neil Druckmann]

There's one where they're all completely in focus and one where they're out of focus. I had a theory that it might be creepier where they're out of focus, but I don't know. Again, I didn't want to be stuck in the edit bay one day or have Craig stuck in the edit bay like you. Why the fuck didn't he get another version?

[Anna Torv]

That does sound like me.

[Neil Druckmann]

So then it was just starting wide. And how do we get into this intimate moment and treat it like an intimate moment? Like, what if you shot it, like two people kissing? And you just think about it that way? Cause there's already so much horror of what's happening. Right. It's like these tendrils coming out of this infected mouth. It's going down her throat. She's like, it's just horrible to think about. So then, instead of shooting it in a creepy way, let's shoot it in the most beautiful way. Like, backlit, silhouetted profile view. And we slowly just come in and in and in as if it was an intimate kiss of two lovers. Absolutely. And it made it way creepier by day.

[Anna Torv]

Creepier.

[Troy Baker]

But also, to me, I found myself watching it, rewatching it going, is it bait because she's still flicking the lighter? Or are we watching this transition of her giving in and the lighter is.

[Anna Torv]

The last fight, that it's that she knows she's lost. The lighter isn't lighting. She Flicks slower and less frequently. You can see her giving up. And then in the last moment, whatever final bit of her that's still there is saying, try one more time. And she gets it. But I love the way we did that because it's underscoring again the theme of love and the way love functions, because the fungus loves, too. It makes more of itself. That's what we do when we love each other. A lot of us make more of ourselves. That's how the. The species is propagated.

[Neil Druckmann]

Some of us do it too often.

[Anna Torv]

Some of us do it too often. And there's this sense that, you know, what we are may look disgusting and the way we reproduce may be horrifying and violated, but it is tender. When this man comes to her, it's not violent because she's not fighting. If she ran, if she fought back, they would all. They would take her apart.

[Troy Baker]

Yeah.

[Anna Torv]

But she's just standing there. And he very gently shares of himself. And it is. It's very Jungian. It's very upsetting. Anything penetrative is disgusting and scary when you're dealing with monsters. And it just. I don't know, there's something so creepy and gross and primal about it, and yet also, weirdly, like Neil said the way. Especially the way he shot it. Beautiful. So there's a lot of stuff going on in that shot, and that's why we wanted to do it. That's so much more interesting than, like, Fedra showed up and shot her, you know.

[Neil Druckmann]

Well, and also, like, just to talk more about that is like, this episode was about the infected.

[Anna Torv]

Yeah.

[Neil Druckmann]

The show has already left Fedra behind. But again, it's like in the game, I think the choices is what really defines these characters. So, like, in the game, Tess makes a choice where, like, I'm gonna stay behind to buy you some time. And then in the show, she stays behind to buy them some time. So it's like we get there in a different way, but the choices the characters make are the same.

[Anna Torv]

That's a great point.

[Troy Baker]

There's different thesis statements that when we started off the show, when you're lost in the darkness, look for the light. That is something that is very. For people who are familiar with the story, that is something that is very, very resonant. But there is this new almost mantra, this new thesis statement that we're adding not in lieu of or instead of, but rather on top of, which is sa. You can save.

[Anna Torv]

Yeah.

[Troy Baker]

Where did that come from?

[Anna Torv]

One of the things that Neil and I talked a Lot about in the beginning was Joel as a savior and how dangerous that is to. To be a savior, particularly when you're trying to save somebody that you cannot save at all. So much of what Joel is is a man who wants to save his daughter, even though she's been dead for 20 years. So there's this dark nature of his saviorhood. And here is this other woman saying, I'm gone, but that kid is alive. Save her and save who you can save. She might as well have been saying, stop trying to save your daughter. She's dead. That kid's alive. Save her. And that is going to be the interesting challenge for Joel over the next few episodes.

[Neil Druckmann]

I mean, a lot of. Also what we talked about is what happens afterwards. Like, how does it end? How do we make it an interesting ending? And we had the version where they both walked downhill and, like, didn't work. And I kind of like where we've ended, which is. And by the way, it's important to note as well, is like, trusting actors to sometimes deviate from what's on the page. Cause this was the first time I've directed a script that I didn't write, and I was very precious about it. Even more so. That would be precious with my own writing.

[Troy Baker]

Because you wanted to be respectful of the writer.

[Anna Torv]

Yeah, but.

[Neil Druckmann]

But, like, the way it was described at the end is after they run out and the building blows up, and Joel makes sure that there are no infected are coming after them. He doesn't look at Ellie, and he walks off. And the way Pedro gave her this little look, like, he's like. You could tell he blames her. You could see it in his eyes. He's blaming her and he's disgusted by her, and he walks off. And then we're like, what does Ellie do? And then Ellie is just also at a loss. And you could tell. You could see the hate in her eyes. She blames him. But then we're like, is she fallen? Does she not? And she's just kind of stuck, and she. And she's just frozen in place, and she doesn't know what to do. And it's just such a weird choice that, like, Craig wrote at the. At the end of this episode, I'm like, it has to be like that. And. And then we're like. I think you were hesitating. You're like, maybe she should walk down the hill.

[Anna Torv]

I get nervous sometimes.

[Neil Druckmann]

I love this so much. She doesn't know what to do. And he's not waiting for her. He's going, if she joins, she joins whatever. And I just like leaving it unresolved and cutting on that.

[Anna Torv]

It does leave us wondering, is he gonna do it or not? I mean, he doesn't want to. Tess says, you're gonna take her to Bill and Frank's and they'll handle her from there. But you're taking her and he's saying, I don't want to. And this is the one person that he sort of cared about in the world who's dying in front of him now. And when he walks away from Ellie, I did want people to wonder, like, come back, or is he just going home to the QZ and leaving her there?

[Troy Baker]

Well, it's something to me as a viewer, whenever you leave an audience wondering what's going to happen next, that's exactly where you want to leave him.

[Anna Torv]

That's TV for you. That's what we do.

[Neil Druckmann]

Goodbye.

[Troy Baker]

This has been the official the Last of Us podcast from hbo. Again, I'm Troy Baker, joined by Craig Mason and Neil Druckmann. You can stream new episodes of the HBO original series the Last of Us Sundays on HBO Max. The podcast episodes are available after episodes of the Last of Us air on hbo. You can find this show wherever you listen to podcasts like and follow HBO's the Last of Us on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook until next week. Endure and survive.

[Neil Druckmann]

This is the official companion podcast for.

[Anna Torv]

HBO's the Last of Us, hosted by Troy Baker.

[Neil Druckmann]

Our producers are Elliot Adler, Bria Mariette and Noah Camuso. Darby Maloney is our editor. The show is mixed by Hannis Brown. Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis and Bari Finkel. Production music is courtesy of HBO and you can watch episodes of the Last of Us on HBO Max.

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