← HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Season 1, Episode 3 - “Long, Long Time”
00:52:51
Host Troy Baker and Showrunners Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann talk about the departure the series took into the story of Bill and Frank. Craig and Neil also reveal the thinking behind casting Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett to portray this middle-aged love and reveal an easter egg reference to the game that shows up at the end of the episode. HBO’s The Last of Us podcast is produced by HBO and Pineapple Street Studios.
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- [00:01]
Rocket Representative
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- [00:35]
Unknown Character
I used to hate the world. And I was happy when everyone died. But I was wrong. Because there was one person worth saving. That's what I did. I saved him. Then I protected him. That's why men like you and me are here. We have a job to do. And God help any motherfuckers who stand in our way.
- [01:07]
Troy Baker
Welcome to the official podcast for HBO's the Last of Us. I'm your host, Troy Baker. This is an episode that I very much have been waiting to get into, Episode three, better known as Long Long. Well, thank you, Craig, for joining us.
- [01:27]
Craig Mazin
My pleasure.
- [01:27]
Troy Baker
And thank you, Neil, for being with us as well.
- [01:29]
Neil Druckmann
Thank you.
- [01:31]
Troy Baker
Let's start at the beginning. We've just left Tess to her demise. We find ourselves in this babbling brook, and you see Joel stacking rocks. What was the message we're trying to convey with that?
- [01:48]
Craig Mazin
Well, we thought it was important to show that Pedro, Joel, missed her, that he was mourning her. And in his very simple way, just making a small cairn of rocks to say quietly, I'm sorry I blew it. I lost you. It's as much about self recrimination, doubt as it is about mourning. But it was important for us to show that he cared, simply because we know that the story becomes about Joel and Ellie. We didn't want Joel to already be okay. It's me and you, kid. Let's go.
- [02:23]
Troy Baker
Hmm.
- [02:23]
Craig Mazin
There was a moment where we had to stop and acknowledge what happened. And similarly, there was a need for Ellie to address it, because we understood that pretty quickly in this episode, we needed them to start talking. Their relationship is beginning now because it's just the two of them. By necessity, there's no one else to talk to. Which means they had to come to a detente. Right. And in this case, she says, how long is this hike? Five hours. We can manage that. That's all we have to do, is just be civil to each other for five hours and then we're done.
- [03:04]
Troy Baker
There was a really cool exchange where they're talking about, I don't want your apology.
- [03:09]
Unknown Character
Look, I've been thinking about.
- [03:10]
I don't want your Sorry.
- [03:11]
I wasn't gonna say I'm sorry. I was gonna say that I've been thinking about what happened. Nobody made you or test take me. Nobody made you go along with this plan. You needed a truck battery or whatever, and you made a choice. So don't blame me for something that isn't my fault.
- [03:29]
Troy Baker
There is this interesting posturing that I see happening already. As far as, you know, we talked before how Tess was kind of out in front. She was the leader. And so now we have this leaderless band, and. And there's an opportunity, it seems, for Joel to step up, to become the leader. But then also, Ellie is saying that I'm not someone who needs to be led. I can actually handle myself pretty well.
- [03:53]
Neil Druckmann
It's a nice evolution of the scene that was in the game where Joel lays out the rules. Okay, if I'm gonna watch over you, here's how things are gonna play out. And I like the addition of Ellie standing up for herself, saying, look, I'll do all those things, but let's be clear. I am not responsible for Tess's death. Which, to me, I can't help but look at, like, Bella and Ellie and say, oh, you totally feel guilty. You're saying these things, but you're feeling the opposite. You're like, it's coming from an insecure place, which is ultimately, again, there's more to be revealed with that.
- [04:26]
Craig Mazin
With Ellie, I'm a big believer that people are liars. It's just part of our. It's part of human nature, is that we lie. Hopefully when we're lying, we're doing it to make things go a little easier for ourselves and others and not hurt people's feelings and all the rest. But sometimes we're lying because we simply can't handle the truth. And what's interesting is here's Ellie saying, it wasn't my fault. But of course, she feels like it's her fault. And here's Ellie saying, eh, five hours. That's fine. We can manage that. And then almost immediately starts asking questions, starts making jokes, starts asking for a gun, starts having fun, starts giving him crap. She wants more than just to manage those five hours. She admires him. She still admires him because of how it all began, when she saw what he did. There is a primal desire, I think, in children to have a parent who will protect them. And even though Ellie was fond of and had a connection with Tess, it was Joel who protected her twice. And so there's. Even though she's saying, oh, it's just five hours in her mind already. Something's begun.
- [05:43]
Neil Druckmann
What's interesting for me about that scene with both characters is they're both hiding their vulnerabilities. They're both trying to be tougher than they actually are because they don't trust each other yet. There's not enough trust there to be vulnerable in front of the other person.
- [05:58]
Troy Baker
There's a dramatic shift in this episode. The first two episodes, there's a lot of heavy lifting you guys had to do, right? You had to introduce these characters. You had to introduce the fiction and the lore and the world and the impact that the inciting events have had on the world and these characters. And now we've kind of set that up. And once you start establishing not only who these characters are, but now you're starting, like you said, Neil, there's an evolution in these characters. We immediately leave them. We leave them by the river and they go off on their five hour hike. And we know that they're going to Bill and Frank's. Right? We saw that at the end of episode two. This is where we need to go. We need to find Bill and Frank. And then we jump to 20 years ago, the very beginning of this, and. And we see this wild eyed guy.
- [06:51]
Bill
Not today, you New World order jackboot fucks.
- [06:55]
Troy Baker
And this is our first introduction to Bill.
- [06:59]
Craig Mazin
That line, by the way, that was not originally dialogue. So a lot of times when I'm writing, I will put what a character's thinking in dialogue form in italics in the action area so they know. Okay, I'm not saying these things, but this is what I'm thinking.
- [07:16]
Troy Baker
Sure.
- [07:17]
Craig Mazin
And Nick Offerman said just one thing, Craig. This line here, new World Order jackboot fucks. I'm saying that out loud and I was like, okay, done.
- [07:33]
Troy Baker
You just said it sounds amazing.
- [07:35]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, he was just like a line like that must be announced to the world. And it was amazing watching Nick, who I think some people understand has this dramatic side to him performing in a way that was far more dramatic than I've ever seen him perform. And yet still never lose his sense of humor, like his timing, his comic ability. It's all there. Bill is a funny guy to watch, even if he is not a funny person character.
- [08:06]
Troy Baker
I want to just park it here for a second and talk about Nick Offerman. Because I'll be honest with you, when I heard that that was who you're going for for Bill, my eyebrows went up.
- [08:17]
Craig Mazin
Vince Gilligan said once that he loves hiring comic actors for non comic roles. Clearly because they have an innate humanity that is there Underneath the drama. And they understand the absurdity of the world because that is the bedrock of comedy. And I think Nick is a great example of what Vince is talking about. He just. There's a humanity to him underneath this gruff, angry, closed off man, dangerous man also, to an extent, very. That was just as important for that character as Pedro's. Vulnerability was important for Joel to make sure that we were providing people with a full human being. Because there is no one. That's just one thing or the other.
- [09:06]
Troy Baker
And a lot of where the comedy versus drama comes from, I've noticed, is not from the performance. It's the presentation of it, it's the context of it.
- [09:16]
Craig Mazin
Right.
- [09:17]
Troy Baker
We get to see how he eats dinner, watching and enjoying violence. Violence. And it's like that's his show. Until someone falls into a hole.
- [09:28]
Craig Mazin
Yes.
- [09:29]
Troy Baker
And we go outside and Bill discovers the person who's fallen into this hole is someone who's not infected, but is very, very much alive and turns out to be Frank.
- [09:42]
Frank
I'm not infected.
- [09:46]
Bill
Are you armed?
- [09:52]
Craig Mazin
No.
- [09:52]
Bill
Why did you take that long to answer?
- [09:54]
Frank
I don't know. I thought about lying for some reason, but reason didn't come.
- [10:01]
Craig Mazin
So Frank, played by Murray Bartlett, rolls on into Bill's life the way Ellie rolls on into Joel's. And Bill would have been perfectly happy living alone for the rest of his life. You get the sense that he was living alone anyway. His mother, who's since passed on, maybe she lived in the house for a while, but otherwise he's alone, and he liked it that way. And then here comes this ray of sunshine, a completely different human being. This is a guy who is a refugee. He was with a group of people who died. He's left alone. He's fallen down a pit, he's hungry, he's dirty, and he's smiling. And he's smiling because he already can tell something about Bill that Bill maybe didn't think anybody was able to see at all.
- [10:51]
Troy Baker
Neil, what was important to you about bringing in the character of Bill and Frank into this iteration?
- [10:58]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, in the game, that episode, that section is about how even though you can survive by yourself, what are you surviving for? What's left in the game? They have a very different fate where they have a big falling out and Bill sticks to his ways. And Frank says, I can't live with you anymore, and tries to escape, ends up dying. That's where the exploration of like, oh, this guy had a partner that wanted more than just surviving. Day to day, you have to live your life. So it was Interesting, again, to take those themes and approach it with a totally different story. Like, now, let's approach it as a sweet, romantic story where the characters can struggle with that idea of what is this life for? You know, we're here for a limited amount of time. How do we best live it? And when Craig pitched me this kind of structure and the thing I get nervous the most about changes is changing the fate of a character. And here we have a very different fate for Bill than we do in the game. And then I try to do the math of, like, weighing it, of, like, well, how much do we gain? Because to me, it's. When you deviate that much, there's a certain cost to it. And it was such a beautiful story that, again, explores the themes of love and the complexity that comes with love and the happiness and pain. And even though this Bill dies in the way that Bill doesn't die in the game, it's a happier ending, much happier, because he lived a full life. Like, we're demonstrating, like. Cause eventually, where some of the story goes is, like, you know, there's a demonstration of, here's what you stand to lose when you love someone. You could feel this immense loss, but here's what you gain. And the contrast of those two things in this episode, I feel, really elevate Joel and Ellie's journey through a telling of, like, a bottle episode.
- [12:51]
Troy Baker
Murray Bartlett, I feel like he just popped up in my life, but he's kind of always been there.
- [12:57]
Craig Mazin
He's always been there.
- [12:59]
Troy Baker
Saw him first in season one of White Lotus, and I was blown away by, again, we're talking about comedic range and dramatic range, right?
- [13:08]
Craig Mazin
Yep.
- [13:09]
Troy Baker
And he does both. How do you go about casting that role that's essentially new?
- [13:17]
Craig Mazin
Well, that's the joy of auditioning. No, it's not.
- [13:22]
Troy Baker
Auditioning is never fun.
- [13:23]
Craig Mazin
I know you don't like it, but we love it. We were very motivated to cast gay actors. I mean, there's a larger debate. Let's take a moment and just talk about generally representation and how you go about being more inclusive in the stories you tell. This wasn't a new concept that Bill was gay. That's in the game. But when you're casting people now, you know, you try as best you can to cast actors that are representative of the characters they're playing in some important way or another. Initially, the role of Bill was going to be played by Con O'Neill, who played Bryukhanov in Chernobyl. And he wasn't able. Ultimately, he couldn't do it, because he was on our flag, means death, which is another HBO show which is very funny if you haven't seen it. So we couldn't do it with Khan. And that's when the idea of Nick came around. But for Nick and for me, both straight men, it was important to say, look, we can do this work. We can tell these stories with these characters. The key is you have to do your homework and you have to talk to people who have walked in the shoes of these characters. And most importantly, you have to give them room to tell you where you've gotten it right and where you've gotten it wrong. And you have to listen. And in this episode, we were very lucky because Murray is a married, middle aged gay man. Peter Hoare, the director who did such a beautiful job, is a married, middle aged gay man. Tim Good, the editor, is a married, middle aged man. Or, you know, production manager. Cecil O'Connor is a married, middle aged gay man. And middle aged, as it turns out, is more important than gay in this story because it was important to me to tell a story about what older, longer, committed love looks like, because that's reflective of my experience. So through this lens, we put out a call and say, look, we're looking for somebody roughly between these ages who ideally is gay, to play this man. And we saw a bunch of people and. And then there was Murray. And it was just. And this was before White Lotus came out, I was familiar with him, but he did such a beautiful job in the audition. And it was, as I recall, it was the speech that Frank does towards the end when he tells Bill, give me one last wonderful day. And it was gorgeous. It was easy, easy casting decision to make. Then. Then White Lotus came out and I was like, oh, my God, nailed it.
- [15:58]
Troy Baker
Got him first.
- [16:00]
Craig Mazin
This guy's amazing. And in addition to being so wildly talented and Murray could play any character, as far as I'm concerned, he could play gay, straight, anything. He also is one of the most lovely, warm people ever. And Nick, I've known Nick for a long time. He's a friend of mine. He's also just Joy. That set was so delightful with those guys, man.
- [16:28]
Troy Baker
It was good to hear.
- [16:29]
Craig Mazin
It was wonderful. And I think in part, that lovely feeling we had was also informed by something Neil pointed out, which is it was a happy story. Yes, they win. In this world that we've created for this show, those two guys won.
- [16:49]
Troy Baker
When I was watching it, the moment at the piano, why that song? Like, what is the. And there's not a song there's not a queue of music that's in the last of us that doesn't have some meaning. So what is the meaning of this?
- [17:02]
Craig Mazin
We had this idea that Bill and Frank would connect over a song. That would be the thing that would essentially lead Frank to feel differently about Bill, to not just go, oh, I see what's going on with this guy, but also to want him. And I thought it was an interesting rotation of expectations. You might think, well, Frank feels like the kind of guy that would be really good at the piano and have a beautiful voice. And he's absolute shit at the piano, which, by the way, Murray Bartlett is great at the piano and has an excellent voice, which is why he was so funny. Doing an impression of a terrible player.
- [17:38]
Troy Baker
Wow.
- [17:38]
Craig Mazin
With a terrible voice.
- [17:40]
Frank
Sounds like good advice, but there's no one at my side.
- [17:49]
Bill
No, no, no, no, no. Thank you.
- [17:51]
Craig Mazin
Sorry.
- [17:52]
Bill
Not this song. Not this song.
- [17:53]
Frank
Well, I'm not a professional.
- [17:55]
Bill
Well, neither am I, but.
- [17:57]
Craig Mazin
And then Bill has this gorgeous ability to play Love Will Abide.
- [18:07]
Bill
Take things in stride. Sounds like good advice, but there's no one at my side and time.
- [18:24]
Craig Mazin
And this incredibly heartfelt connection to these lyrics. Okay, so I'm looking for a song that describes a state of permanent lonely heartache that can never be soothed. And I'm also looking for a song that isn't overplayed, that didn't feel cliche, that didn't feel syrupy or gloppy. And this is a tall order. So I'm hunting around, I'm looking around, I'm struggling. And then I have a great idea. I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to text my friend, Seth Rudetsky. So Seth Rudetsky is a Broadway institution. He is the main DJ on the SiriusXM Broadway channel, and he also is an accompanyist, and he also has created his own musical. And he's a wonderful guy. He also has the most encyclopedic knowledge of all music. All of it, from classical to show tunes to popular music. All of it. And I texted him and I just said, here's what I'm looking for. Lifelong loss and longing A sense that you'll never ever get there so a Sort of Woe Is Me song. And within four seconds, three dots, three dots, three dots. Yeah. Ping. Long, long time. Linda Ronstadt. And it was one of those songs I had forgotten existed.
- [19:40]
Troy Baker
Yeah, same.
- [19:41]
Craig Mazin
And I played it and I was like, oh, my God, it couldn't have been more perfect.
- [19:46]
Troy Baker
Could not have been more perfect.
- [19:47]
Craig Mazin
And talking with Nick, about the lyrics, how important it was to understand that the lyrics were someone saying, everyone tells me that it's okay that love will find me, that the pain of heartache and loss and disconnection will heal. No, it doesn't. No, it's not. And the person that I long for from afar, I'm gonna love them basically forever in the most unrequited manner. And to me, I just thought, what a beautiful notion that you can't ever get there. The closer you get, the further that light gets away from you.
- [20:31]
Troy Baker
For me, there's this trepidatious moment after Frank has just butchered the rendition of the song. And he sits down and Bill says, I know I don't look like the type. And Frank says, you do.
- [20:43]
Craig Mazin
You do.
- [20:43]
Troy Baker
And it's just so offhanded. But then the hand comes on the shoulder and he goes, so who's the girl that you're singing about? He goes, there was no girl. But he knows the second that he asks this, either I'm right and it confirms it, or I got it wrong, and I'm gonna be really, really disappointed.
- [21:01]
Craig Mazin
There's no chance you got it wrong. And this is something that I talked about a lot with our many partners on that episode who were gay. So what is it like when you're trying to figure out if the other person is, like, you, in the minority of sexuality? And all of the men that I spoke with basically said, there are people you really don't know about. There are people you're pretty sure about. And then there are people you're like, oh, I see you. And this was a case where we felt it was important that Frank could see Bill. Bill's sexuality was buried not because he was in the closet anymore. The world had ended. Literally. Nobody is around him. He's alone. The whole world is his closet. It was that he had essentially buried his own sexuality. Totally.
- [21:52]
Troy Baker
That was the question that I had, is this almost felt like Frank is shepherding himself. Yeah.
- [21:57]
Neil Druckmann
Well, the thing I like about. I love about this character is that the contradiction. Like, this is clearly a doomsday prepper conservative guy that cares a lot about the Second Amendment.
- [22:08]
Craig Mazin
Oh, yeah.
- [22:09]
Neil Druckmann
And he's gay, and he doesn't know how to. Clearly, he's never dealt with that. Frank clearly sees him for what he is, and. And he's inviting him. He gives him an opening, and he's like, he's not calling him out. He gives him this opening, and Bill takes it.
- [22:24]
Craig Mazin
I mean, we talked about, okay, like, where's the moment I had this discussion with Peter Horror and with Murray Bartlett, like, where's the moment that Frank sees it? And I don't like to impose these things. I feel like, okay, where you feel it naturally as an actor, that's where it will come forth. I can only tell you what I think, if you want to know. And they did. And to me, there's a moment where Frank is standing there. He's come out of the pit that he's fallen into. He's got his hands up. Bill's aiming a gun at him, basically telling him to get lost.
- [22:53]
Frank
Feels long.
- [22:54]
Bill
I'm letting you go. So go.
- [22:56]
Frank
All right, look, first, my name's Frank.
- [22:59]
Bill
Oh, yeah. Here's the thing, Frank. If I feed you, then every bum you talk to about it is gonna show up here looking for a free lunch.
- [23:07]
Craig Mazin
Frank basically says, come on, please.
- [23:10]
Frank
I won't talk about it to any bums or hobos or vagabonds. I promise.
- [23:16]
Craig Mazin
And there's a hesitation. Bill hesitates because he's looking. He's just suddenly seeing how handsome this man is standing there in the light. And that's something that Frank's brain is incredibly attuned to. It's that fast. There's a moment there, if you watch that scene again, where he kind of smiles. And he's smiling because in his mind, he's like, I got you. I know you. And from that point forward, it was about. In my mind, about Frank thinking to himself, look, maybe I get lunch and I move on. I don't know. But let's just see where this goes. And as Bill reveals more of himself to Frank, Frank suddenly realizes, oh, this isn't about a game of Gotcha. I see who you are, or how many lunches can I get? This is a beautiful person.
- [24:07]
Troy Baker
And we jump straight from this beautiful, intimate moment.
- [24:12]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah.
- [24:12]
Frank
Oh, fuck you.
- [24:14]
Craig Mazin
Come on.
- [24:16]
Bill
Hey, would you stop?
- [24:18]
Frank
Do I ask for things ever? Why am I even saying that? This isn't for me. This is for us.
- [24:25]
Bill
Who cares what they look like?
- [24:26]
Frank
I do. Our home isn't just our house. It's everything around us.
- [24:32]
Bill
Give me a fucking break.
- [24:33]
Frank
Oh, I'm sorry.
- [24:34]
Craig Mazin
I forgot what we think of as romantic love. And this is important because so much of the show is about love. What we think of as romantic love lasts. I don't know how long it lasts. A year, two, tops. I don't know. The really intense part is maybe three or four months. So what does it mean to love somebody after 25 or 30 years? And to me, that love has nothing to do with romantic love. That love is the product of. Of time.
- [24:57]
Troy Baker
And here we see again another version of that love where love means you fight and you argue. And Frank says something specific. He goes, it's my street too.
- [25:06]
Craig Mazin
This is me. Love it the way I want to.
- [25:08]
Troy Baker
Exactly right.
- [25:09]
Craig Mazin
And that's the dichotomy that we will play around with a lot. There is two ways of loving things. Frank wants to love outwards. He is sun, he is light. He wants to make things beautiful around him. He wants to care for Bill, he wants to revitalize this street. So it is not simply this mausoleum that Bill lives in. And he wants to have friends, he wants to share what they have. And Bill wants to put an electrified fence around them that is guarded by an additional layer of flame throwing gas pipes. And no one can show up ever, because he must protect Frank from the world. And as it turns out, both of those loves are required. But one of those loves is likely to get you in trouble more than the other.
- [26:02]
Troy Baker
So much of the experience with Bill in the game is about traps. We pick up new resources. That was, to me as a player, is so much of an important factor in Bill's story when we're in Bill's town. But this is a wonderful example of telling the same story in two different mediums. And the cost benefit of that. How do you navigate that? Where gameplay is not a part of this now. We just have the narrative, this story.
- [26:30]
Neil Druckmann
In this episode, you could not tell in the video game. It'd be impossible to jump around that much. Especially the game the Last of Us Is, which again is more kind of action oriented. You couldn't go this long without some kind of set piece, some kind of action sequence.
- [26:46]
Troy Baker
Press F to save Bill's life.
- [26:47]
Neil Druckmann
And therefore you could tell this kind of really moving, slower, romantic story where you jump around in years. And likewise the story that the game tells and how you're connecting with Bill in the game by like you're playing alongside him, you're surviving sequences with him. He saves your life. Like that's how you meet him in the game. As you are, Joel, stuck in one of his traps and he comes and saves you. We couldn't tell that story in the TV show. You'd be bored out of your mind if you're not playing that sequence, right? So it had to change.
- [27:19]
Troy Baker
There's a specific moment where he, day one, Frank goes in and he rubs his finger across the mantle to see the dust. And for me, that moment was, I have a purpose here. You can make rabbit and pair it with a Beaujolais. And you can clearly create traps and protect us. And protect us. But I can make it look nice.
- [27:37]
Craig Mazin
I can nurture this place.
- [27:38]
Troy Baker
We have moments of. And I texted you when it happened. And all I had to do was just send you a picture of strawberry. An emoji with strawberries. And crying. There's the laugh. Cry that you do.
- [27:48]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. When he tastes it.
- [27:52]
Troy Baker
And then you see this beautiful moment. What I love is Frank goes, not here in the strawberries.
- [27:57]
Craig Mazin
Not in the strawberries. Which is. That's. You know, that's me and my wife. You know, like, it's that wonderful push pull of this energy of two people who have kind of committed to each other. But in that scene, what I love is you've got the epitome of who Frank is, which is somebody that nurtures and grows and beautifies and shares.
- [28:22]
Frank
Oh, I traded Joel and Tess one of your guns for a packet of seeds.
- [28:28]
Bill
Which gun?
- [28:30]
Frank
A little one.
- [28:32]
Craig Mazin
And then you have poor Bill, who is worried that he's getting old, and who says, I was never afraid until you came along. And that, to me is. That's where the underside of love is.
- [28:47]
Troy Baker
Why do you think he takes that moment to apologize and go, I'm sorry for getting older faster than you?
- [28:53]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. Because he's afraid that Frank is gonna be left alone. He's already worried about it. He's already worried. Look at this beautiful man and the beautiful things that he does. And what is Bill's contribution? Bill doesn't grow strawberries. I mean, what did Frank. Frank even traded one of his guns for the strawberries.
- [29:09]
Troy Baker
A little one.
- [29:10]
Craig Mazin
A little one. And what is Bill's contribution? Bill's contribution is to keep Frank alive, which we will see in the next scene happening as best Bill can. But Bill is already afraid that he is going to fail. And that is a fear that Joel has in him, because Joel's earned that fear through experience. He failed his daughter, at least as far as he understands that. His own trauma. And he lost her. And Bill is already worried. And the most honest expression that Bill can make to prove that he loves Frank is to tell him, I'm afraid because I need to keep you alive.
- [29:51]
Neil Druckmann
I mean, as cliche as that sounds, that is love.
- [29:54]
Craig Mazin
That's love.
- [29:55]
Neil Druckmann
Love is like putting yourself out there and accepting you're going to feel pain. 100%. You're going to feel pain. But it comes with this beautiful strawberry moment.
- [30:05]
Troy Baker
Let's move through from this beautiful moment. He says, we're Going to have friends and Joel and Tess come and.
- [30:10]
Craig Mazin
Yes. Their lunch.
- [30:11]
Troy Baker
And you see how the current circumstances are mandating a very cordial luncheon. Well, this really is just.
- [30:20]
Frank
It's amazing, right? Can you not please?
- [30:25]
Craig Mazin
Almost cordial. I mean, Bill does have his gun.
- [30:27]
Troy Baker
Has gun on the table. And what I love is that first one was, can you not please?
- [30:30]
Craig Mazin
Can you not please?
- [30:33]
Troy Baker
Elbows on the table.
- [30:34]
Craig Mazin
I mean, I cannot tell you how many times my wife has said, can you not please?
- [30:37]
Troy Baker
Can you not please hear?
- [30:37]
Craig Mazin
But it's, that's, you know, and then. Oh, you're a paranoid schizophrenic too.
- [30:42]
Troy Baker
I'm not schizophrenic. But you see how Frank and Tess kind of band together. We see the introduction of the convention of how the music is gonna be their code. And then we see, not purposefully, but kind of like, I guess you and I have to talk between Bill and Joel. But we do get to see this other part of Joel where he's pitching to Bill a little bit.
- [31:07]
Craig Mazin
Well, what he's doing is speaking Bill's language. Because even though, unlike Joel, Bill has been self sufficient basically his whole life and Bill continues to think he can manage this on his own. But here's Joel saying, look, one protector to another, since this is our utility in the world, I need to tell you that fence won't make it. And Bill knows he's right the second he says it. And it pisses him off.
- [31:36]
Unknown Character
That fence has got a year on it tops. Galvanized wire already started to corrode. If I can get you 10 spools of high tensile aluminum, last you the rest of your life lives.
- [31:55]
Craig Mazin
Because Joel knows that Bill's purpose is not to protect himself. Joel understands inherently, as Bill understands about Joel, their purpose is to protect someone else.
- [32:07]
Neil Druckmann
They don't care as much about their own lives.
- [32:09]
Craig Mazin
Correct. They don't care at all.
- [32:10]
Neil Druckmann
By the way, another thing that, like, as we talk about this is interesting to think about is just how similar Joel and Bill are. And they're similar in the way that they're very conservative. And by that I mean it's about protecting yourself and your tribe. It's like by closing them off as much as possible, putting as much of a shell around them so you could keep them safe.
- [32:30]
Craig Mazin
And.
- [32:31]
Neil Druckmann
And yet they're drawn to people that take big risks and live life. If you think about like Tess and Frank and Ellie, that's their similarity. They can't stand still. It is about kind of going outwards and like affecting some change.
- [32:48]
Rocket Representative
This podcast is sponsored by Rocket. The American dream of homeownership feels further and further out of reach. For many people, home homeownership feels impossible. But Rocket is on a mission to help everyone get home. They've got a range of products and services designed to turn renters into owners. From lowering down payments to as little as 1% to helping turn your rent check into a forever home. Find out more@rocket.com Rocket Own the dream.
- [33:19]
Troy Baker
The night when the raiders come is definitely one of those life is short moments. And we see this flip of the caretaker happen.
- [33:27]
Craig Mazin
Yep. Frank is a nurturer. Frank is somebody that brings things to life. Frank is somebody that preserves life. That is very different than somebody who's out there killing people to protect you. And in that moment, you can see the two sides of love. And because Frank is fixed right there in the moment on nurturing and saving and curing and healing. We got this.
- [33:54]
Frank
We got this. Hold your hand there for me. Hold your hand there.
- [33:59]
Craig Mazin
And Bill has already written his own life off and is running down a list of practicals.
- [34:05]
Bill
I made a list for you.
- [34:08]
Frank
Tell me about the list.
- [34:09]
Bill
I have copies of all the keys.
- [34:12]
Frank
Good.
- [34:13]
Craig Mazin
And most importantly, call Joel. And that, to me, is where you start to understand the kinship between Bill and Joel. Even though Bill clearly didn't like Joel, he resented Joel. He didn't like the fact that Joel was rubbing his nose in his weaknesses.
- [34:31]
Neil Druckmann
But there's a respect there.
- [34:33]
Troy Baker
There's a respect and a recognition that he can get to.
- [34:35]
Craig Mazin
He will take care of you. Meaning somebody has to be here to murder people to keep you safe.
- [34:41]
Troy Baker
There's tiny moments with Frank that we get that to me, are just stories within themselves. And we wake up, Frank's in the wheelchair. He says, it took me most of the night. I'm exhausted.
- [34:52]
Craig Mazin
And Bill's angry at him, Bill's angry at him. Which is exactly the way it works. You know when you are in that long term relationship and you go to bed, it's a quick peck on the cheek, you roll over, you go to bed, you wake up, you see the person that you love has done something you've told them not to do 100 times. And you're like, I'm not arguing about it. Your feet are gonna turn blue. Get back in the bed. That's it. Da, da, da, da, da. And then he gets stopped in his tracks by what Frank says.
- [35:15]
Bill
I'm not fighting about it. Back in bed.
- [35:16]
Frank
I promise you I'm going to stay up.
- [35:18]
Bill
Why?
- [35:19]
Frank
Because this is my last Day.
- [35:21]
Craig Mazin
What Frank is asking him for, Frank knows is difficult, but what he's saying to Bill is every instinct you have is to protect me, to keep me alive, to murder anything that would hurt me. And I'm asking you to hurt me.
- [35:36]
Frank
I'm not going to give you the every day was a wonderful gift from God speech. I have had a lot of bad days. I've had bad days with you too. But I've had more good days with you than with anyone else.
- [35:54]
Troy Baker
Just give me one more good day in the game. The way that Frank meets his end, as we find out through what Bill says, is that he got bit. And Joel says, well, I guess instead of turning, he decided to hang himself. Where did this idea come from to make it just even more heart wrenching? Well, is it ms? What would you say that he had?
- [36:18]
Craig Mazin
Well, we didn't necessarily want to specify it for the audience. It was either Ms. Or early als.
- [36:24]
Troy Baker
Okay.
- [36:25]
Craig Mazin
But it was a degenerative neuromuscular disorder. And you know, this happens. It happens so commonly and yet so rarely as people get older on screen, they tend to be fully healthy until the heart attack staggers them out of nowhere. That does happen, but for the majority of people, there is a decline. And we thought it was really interesting to think, look, Bill is older. Frank can literally run circles around him. He's healthier, Bill gets shot, and then we jump ahead a number of years, and it's Frank who's been brought low by this disease, and there's nothing they can do about it. But you can see how Bill is doing his best to caretake Frank the way that Frank would caretake Bill.
- [37:18]
Troy Baker
Frank was really shepherding him through his sexuality and even his first sexual experience. But it feels like in this moment, this is where Frank is shepherding him through grief.
- [37:30]
Craig Mazin
Like Neil says, this is the price of love is pain. I'm in my 50s. I have to start thinking about what this might be like one day. Cause it's inevitable. In many ways, Frank is the lucky one. Because from his point of view, he's done. He's ready to check out. It's Bill who's gonna have to mourn. That's the hard part. And what Frank is asking him for, Frank knows, is difficult. But what he's saying to Bill is every instinct you have is to protect me, to keep me alive, to murder anything that would hurt me. And I'm asking you to hurt me.
- [38:05]
Troy Baker
We get to the moment of dinner, and what I found interesting about that moment is, again, we have this Private moment with Frank where Bill has made the same dinner from the first night, arranging the charging platters in the same way.
- [38:21]
Craig Mazin
And then Frank moves it back again, the same way he did the very first time.
- [38:25]
Troy Baker
So we have this wonderful mirroring of their first encounter. And then Bill goes into the kitchen to get the second bottle for you guys. When was the moment of decision for Bill?
- [38:41]
Craig Mazin
My feeling is that somewhere around the middle of the day, when Bill decided, all right, I'm going to go along with this plan. I will go to the boutique, I'll put on what he told me to wear, we'll get married, we'll do all that stuff. I'll make him dinner somewhere in there. Once he decided, all right, I'm going to do this, then he very quickly decided, and then here's what I'm also going to do, because there's no fucking way. This was a tricky one, because there's a line that Bill says here that I lifted almost directly from the playwright Mark Crowley, who wrote the Boys in the Band, which is a wonderful play from the 60s about gay men navigating their lives and their relationships. And one of them in that play says to the other, this isn't the tragic suicide at the end of the suicide at the end of the play. Not all gay men have to die at the end of the play because there is a tradition of essentially equating homosexuality with tragedy and that a gay man couldn't possibly just age and be happy and live long. And it was important for me to have Bill literally say, that's not what this is.
- [39:50]
Bill
This isn't the tragic suicide at the end of the play.
- [39:54]
Unknown Character
I'm old.
- [39:58]
Bill
I'm satisfied, and you were my purpose.
- [40:06]
Neil Druckmann
What I love about all that, besides how beautiful and moving it is when you watch it, is that, in a way, Bill is very, very lucky that the person he loves the most is going out at the end of his own life. Like, Bill doesn't have a lot left either, so the choice is relatively easier. But it kind of reflects outwards or like, it pulses outwards to say, well, what happens when you lose someone you love so much and there's a lot of life left in front of you? Because that's kind of what we saw happening at the beginning of the story with Joel. And that's the thing that Joel is doing his best to avoid ever living again. And slowly but surely what the universe is saying, we're coming back to that moment in time.
- [40:51]
Troy Baker
You will live life with loss.
- [40:54]
Craig Mazin
Yes. And the harsh part, I guess, the Cruelest part is that Bill's note that he leaves behind for Joel is what he thought was his gift to Joel is to say, look, I thought it was awesome when everybody died, which I think is hysterical. But it turns out I was wrong. Basically, a person like me is here for a reason, and that is to love a person, save that person and keep that person alive. And God help any motherfucker who stands in our way. And you, Joel, are exactly like I am. So I'm giving you all my guns, use them to keep Tess safe. And so this gift that he's giving him and this thing of you and I are the same. He doesn't understand that by the time Joel reads that letter, Joel has already failed terribly and that it's not the first time Joel has failed to protect somebody that he was supposed to protect.
- [42:00]
Troy Baker
It was interesting to me that Joel goes, so they're dead.
- [42:03]
Craig Mazin
Yeah.
- [42:04]
Troy Baker
And then the letter comes and that's when he has to walk outside. That's what gets him, is I don't know if it's a matter of the reminder of Tess or if it's, I am not good at this.
- [42:22]
Craig Mazin
Both. I think that letter underscores for him that no matter how hard he tries and no matter how strong his instinct is to preserve and protect the people that he cares about, he can't. And then sort of, because the universe is lined up this way. And really by the universe, I mean Neil Druckmann has created this. There's this kid who needs him and he has a choice. And the choice is, do I stop trying to be like Bill, do I stop trying to be like me and do I just give up and just walk back and whatever? Or do I try again and do I try again with this kid who represents something far more dangerous to me than Tess ever did because she is a 14 year old girl just like his daughter was.
- [43:19]
Troy Baker
Not only is she a 14 year old girl, but as we saw in the beginning of this episode, she's a 14 year old girl with a sadistic streak.
- [43:29]
Craig Mazin
Ah, yes she is.
- [43:31]
Troy Baker
She stabs that infected that's in the wall. And at the end of this episode, not only is she now starting to pull out the joke book and beginning to talk, but now she's got a gun.
- [43:50]
Craig Mazin
We really like the idea that Ellie wants a gun. And Joel keeps telling her, no, you can't have a gun. I'm not giving you a gun. Tess says, I'm not giving you a gun. Ellie asks over and over. They're in Bill's bunker There is a wall of them. No, you can't have a gun. And yet at the end, when she's on her own, she finds not just any gun. Frank's gun. It was Frank's.
- [44:16]
Neil Druckmann
I remember a lot of our conversation was the structure of these episodes. We ended the previous episode with Joel walking away from Ellie and not quite embracing this wish that Tess made before she blew herself up. And then here we have a very different ending where, like, we see them connecting. And he's prepping her and he's explaining things to her, and he's now post. This letter has taken her on in a very different way. So again, we feel the impact of, like, we left these characters to have this story, this beautiful story between Bill and Frank. And now we're feeling the impact of that story on our two main characters as they continue their journey.
- [44:57]
Unknown Character
If I'm taking you with me, there's some rules you gotta follow. Rule one, you don't bring up Tess ever. Matter of fact, we. We can just keep our histories to ourselves. Rule two, you don't tell anyone about your condition. They see that bite mark, they won't think it through. They'll just shoot you. Rule three, you do what I say when I say it. We clear?
- [45:20]
Craig Mazin
Yes.
- [45:21]
Unknown Character
Repeat it.
- [45:25]
What you say goes.
- [45:27]
Craig Mazin
Well, you do what I say. And he says, repeat it. And she says, what you say goes. She doesn't repeat it.
- [45:33]
Troy Baker
She's some brilliant writing. I think it's my boy over here. There's a few things that we talked about. It's the iconic things that we get to introduce right before they leave.
- [45:43]
Craig Mazin
The shirt. The shirts.
- [45:45]
Troy Baker
Both shirts. And I love that you made the truck.
- [45:47]
Neil Druckmann
The truck.
- [45:47]
Troy Baker
The truck is what we're getting into, which we know will lead us hopefully, into the next episode. What I'm hoping for some very iconic moments as well. But there's one last iconic thing as we are following the truck as it heads off into the horizon. And we pull back, and we're now into, presumably, the bedroom where Bill and Frank are. And we see the beautiful painting next to the wilted flowers and the open window with the curtains blowing in the wind. Was that intentional?
- [46:16]
Neil Druckmann
That's very much an iconic elasmus.
- [46:19]
Craig Mazin
Oh, that's a whole theory. Some things don't always work out of failures. Right. Like, that's the temptation is this podcast makes it sound like we just thought of only the good ideas. And imagine, look at that. We avoided all the bad ones. We had this idea that we were gonna open every episode with a window with a Window. So, you know, like when you're watching on streaming and the intro comes along, little button says skip intro.
- [46:44]
Troy Baker
Sure.
- [46:45]
Craig Mazin
That we were gonna change the words of skip intro to press play so you could sit there and look at this window as long as you wanted. Each episode would have a different window reflecting a different circumstance in that episode. Then you'd press play and the episode would begin. And in this one, we like the idea of coming back around to that window. Well, as many windows as we filmed, it just never really made sense.
- [47:07]
Neil Druckmann
By the way, the reason we were attracted to this idea is that's what happens in the game, right?
- [47:11]
Craig Mazin
Exactly.
- [47:11]
Neil Druckmann
The opening of the game, you're in the menu, you're seeing a curtain blowing in the wind, and it's like, press a button to start.
- [47:18]
Craig Mazin
It just never came together. But the. The plus side of the, you know, the misfire there was that we did have this ending, which we loved. And it is a chance to give fans who have experienced what I've experienced as a player, that feeling of the open window and the sense of both promise and loss that it implies. And what I love about the last moment is that it brings us a sense of happiness, that you just know that Bill and Frank are at peace and that finally Bill found the person that he could love for a long, long time.
- [48:06]
Troy Baker
Guys, thank you both for being here today.
- [48:08]
Craig Mazin
That was great, Troy.
- [48:09]
Neil Druckmann
Always.
- [48:17]
Troy Baker
This has been the official the Last of Us podcast from hbo. Again, I'm Troy Baker, joined by Craig Mason and Neil Druckmann. You can stream new episodes of the HBO original series the Last of Us Sundays on HBO Max. The podcast episodes are available after episodes of the Last of Us air on hbo. You can find this show wherever you listen to podcasts like and follow HBO's the Last of Us on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Until next week, Endure and survive.
- [48:44]
Podcast Production Team
This is the official companion podcast for HBO's the Last of Us, hosted by Troy Baker. Our producers are Elliot Adler, Bria Mariette and Noah Camuso. Darby Maloney is our editor. The show is mixed by Hannis Brown. Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis and Bari Finkel. Production music is courtesy of hbo and you can watch episodes of the the Last of Us on HBO Max.
- [49:23]
Rocket Representative
This podcast is sponsored by Rocket. The American dream of homeownership feels further and further out of reach for many people. Homeownership feels impossible, but Rocket is on a mission to help everyone get home. They've got a range of products and services designed to turn renters into owners, from lowering down payments to as little as 1% to helping turn your rent check into a forever home. Find out more@rocket.com Rocket Own the dream.