Loading summary

Transcript183 lines

[00:01]
Sponsor
This podcast is sponsored by Rocket. The American dream of homeownership feels further and further out of reach. For many people, homeownership feels impossible. But Rocket is on a mission to help everyone get home. They've got a range of products and services designed to turn renters into owners, from lowering down payments to as little as 1% to helping turn your rent check into a forever home. Find out more@rocket.com Rocket Own the dream.
[00:38]
Scott Shephard
What does Cordyceps do? Is it evil? No. It's fruitful. It multiplies. It feeds and protects its children. And it secures its future with violence if it must. It loves.
[00:59]
Troy Baker
Welcome to the official podcast for HBO's original series, the Last of Us. I am your host Troy Baker, and I had the amazing opportunity to play Joel in the Last of Us video game. But today I am here with the showrunners, Craig Mason.
[01:12]
Craig Mazin
Good to be back.
[01:13]
Troy Baker
And Neil Druckmann.
[01:14]
Scott Shephard
Hey.
[01:15]
Troy Baker
And we are discussing a very special episode, perhaps one of my favorites, episode eight, titled when we are In Need. Now.
[01:23]
Craig Mazin
I thought you were going to say titled. I'm in this.
[01:28]
Troy Baker
I. That's why it's my favorite.
[01:29]
Craig Mazin
It's. It's.
[01:30]
Troy Baker
It's my favorite for many, many reasons. And I'm warning you now, this is as spoilery as it gets. So if you haven't watched the episode yet, you're going to want to. This is a very different kind of cold open for many reasons. The image that we're given is very, very cold, bitter cold. And we hear something that up to this point has been absent in this world. And that is scripture.
[01:57]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. So we're here in a different place and a different season. And this is one of those places where Neil and I discussed how to expand the other. We've been doing this all season, looking at the other. That in the game, we see through a fixed perspective from Ellie and. Okay, we don't have to. We can actually start on the other side of it and present the other as humane and with, in this case, a guy named David. His own goals, his own community. He is a preacher. There are people clearly relying on him.
[02:39]
Scott Shephard
He.
[02:39]
Craig Mazin
Things are not going well. He knows it. And he comforts a child. He comforts a little girl who's about Ellie's age.
[02:47]
Scott Shephard
Do you remember what comes next? And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. For there will be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying. Neither will there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away. Do you know what that means? Good.
[03:19]
Craig Mazin
There's an intimation that her father has been killed. And there's also the undercurrent that something else is going on here that's worse than just sadness. And if I may, we understand that because this tall, lanky drink of water named Troy Baker, playing a character named James, shares a look of recognition with this guy David. Something is going on here that these two guys know about and maybe other people don't.
[03:50]
Troy Baker
Revelations 21 and I saw a new heaven and a new earth. Why this verse?
[03:55]
Craig Mazin
It's about rebirth. It's about the idea that there can be a new world that is better than the world that we know or have left behind. And it is also a verse about moving past tragedy and grief. It's something that I think David, as played by Scott Sheppard here, has read every time someone has died. I think it's his go to. I think it's a call to maintain faith even in the face of tragedy and loss.
[04:32]
Neil Druckmann
It's also where he found faith, which we discover later, which is like he's discovered faith through this massive loss that happened on our planet.
[04:39]
Craig Mazin
Yep.
[04:40]
Troy Baker
Once we leave that moment, now we're out into their city. And what I love seeing this, especially now that I've seen the episode with Jackson, is you're presenting two possible outcomes. Whereas Jackson has prospered and flourished and is a functioning communistic society, here is one that is the underbelly, where it's in order to control. You must do that through fear and oppression.
[05:05]
Craig Mazin
Well, you can certainly read into this the dangers of theocracy. Although I think they're just unlucky. That's part of it.
[05:12]
Neil Druckmann
Why they settle down. They're just unlucky.
[05:14]
Craig Mazin
They picked a bad spot.
[05:15]
Troy Baker
What about it was bad, do you think?
[05:17]
Craig Mazin
Well, in my mind, this place must have looked fantastic. In the spring, there are all these buildings. It's a resort.
[05:27]
Troy Baker
Silver Lake Resort.
[05:28]
Craig Mazin
It's a resort. There's a beautiful lake and there are a lot of trees and probably quite a bit of game running around. You have this steakhouse, and this is all taken directly from the game, Todd's Steakhouse, which is instantly convertible into a community gathering space and a church and a house of worship. And you don't stop to think about things that are not particularly religious but rather scientific. Like, this is Colorado. We are up against the Rocky Mountains, and when the winter comes, this place is going to be unrecognizable from what it is in the spring. And the food is going to run out. The weather is going to be bitter cold. And we are so cut off from other settlements, that if. If anything goes slightly wrong, if it's even a slightly worse winter than we expect, people are going to start dying and we are going to start starving. And that is where we find you, James and David contemplating what to do.
[06:38]
Neil Druckmann
There's also a conversation that, you know, is reflected in the dialogue between James and David, which is faith. And faith can, just like love can be wonderful or sometimes terrible, I sense doubt in there.
[06:57]
Troy Baker
They haven't lost faith in you, David.
[06:59]
Scott Shephard
They're just scared. Not from them.
[07:09]
Craig Mazin
I still believe.
[07:14]
Troy Baker
It'S been. The last six months have been hard.
[07:19]
Scott Shephard
For all of us. But I need to know you're with me.
[07:28]
Craig Mazin
Yeah.
[07:31]
Scott Shephard
Good. Now go get our guns. We're going hunting.
[07:37]
Neil Druckmann
And in this instance, I think that David has fallen too far into, like, everything's going to work out because everything happens for a reason. We are in these trials for a reason, but now it's becoming too much. And I think he let faith kind of override it. The positive thing of faith, you could maintain hope in these extraordinary circumstances, which is what he does. But he hasn't prepared for the winter in the way that Jackson has.
[08:02]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. Jackson is run by a woman who was a prosecutor. She was a woman of law. And it was founded, therefore, on the bedrock principles of law. I believe very strongly in the separation of church and state, not only because it's important to protect people who are of religious minorities, but because religion doesn't do a good job of running a state. I believe religion does a terrible job of running a state. And if you look at theocracies around the world, you will see this being repeated time and time again. Where there is a theocracy, your state starts to fail. David is not only theocratic in nature, but he's also paternalistic in nature, which is another interesting thing to talk about. The idea of how a patriarchal theocracy functions here versus a democracy built on secular law run by both men and women. In Jackson, there are these very clear differences. And I think our show is not shying away from saying one is better than the other.
[09:10]
Neil Druckmann
Doesn't help that he's a narcissist and everything is about him and the love that he receives.
[09:16]
Craig Mazin
And this is, you know, the people that tend to end up running theocracies are probably not as godly as they think.
[09:24]
Neil Druckmann
But he's also extremely confident at adversity. Like, that's why I think he makes the hard calls. Just like Kathleen, just like Marlene, just like a lot of the people we've seen in this story, he can make the hard calls that no one else can make.
[09:39]
Troy Baker
Once we move away from David and James and that conversation you talk about, we're back with Ellie and Joel, and we see perhaps a little progress because she has been able to stitch him up. And we see a remarkable bedside manner for Ellie. Just to place this in the time. How much time has passed, would you.
[09:56]
Craig Mazin
Say to me, it's been a day or two?
[09:59]
Neil Druckmann
Not that much.
[10:00]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, she's sewn him up.
[10:01]
Neil Druckmann
But what I love about the sequence is that there's these long moments where you just see her staring. And the idea of, you wouldn't know. You're like, I stitched him. Is this working? It's kind of turning infectious. I'm not sure. Is he gonna survive? Die? I don't know.
[10:15]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, I mean, the wound still looks really. The discoloration is spreading. And more importantly, Joel's not waking up. He's in and out of consciousness. He's not eating, he's not drinking. She's tapping water to his lips. She's doing everything she can. But she is a kid now. She's also a kid that, as we've talked about, has this aspiration to be like Joel. And so I think when she's sitting there looking at him and she's starving herself. Cause they're down to their last little scrap of beef jerky. She thinks, well, what would Joel do here? And what Joel would do is pick up that gun, go out there and shoot a deer. I mean, remember Ellie asked, teach me how to hunt. I want to know how to hunt. Well, this is her chance to go out there and hunt.
[11:06]
Troy Baker
Ellie takes the rifle and she forages out because they need food. And we have moments of this with the first kind of sequence with Ellie in the game where she is now hunting. And we have this moment with a deer. And we get to actually see this where she's trying to remember just the steps that Joel walked her through of what to do. And she breathes. And we have this very intimate. You chose to be very close with Ellie and also with the deer. And then we find our two other characters, David and James. And now, just as Joel has had the drop, someone's gotten the drop on him before. Ellie has now got the drop on these two guys.
[11:49]
Scott Shephard
Turn and face me.
[11:51]
Craig Mazin
Slow.
[11:52]
Scott Shephard
Any sudden moves, I put one right between your eyes.
[11:55]
Neil Druckmann
Ditto for buddy boy.
[11:59]
Scott Shephard
You're quite a hunter. We didn't even hear you coming.
[12:02]
Craig Mazin
Turn around and walk away.
[12:04]
Troy Baker
There was a specific choice that felt like it was Made. She doesn't know how to hold that rifle. Well.
[12:10]
Craig Mazin
No, it's too heavy. And that rifle bigger than her. It is. And that rifle that we're using there is the real thing. We, you know, obviously stressed gun safety all the time. Most of the time when our actors are holding guns, they're not loaded with blanks. They're obviously never loaded with real ammunition. In that case, the gun as she's walking around is unloaded, but it's the real rifle, and it is heavy. And Bella, like, the next day, was feeling it, like, in her biceps and her pecs, like, it was hard for her to hold that thing up. And we would. Throughout the scene where she confronts your character and David from off camera, we would occasionally be like, lift the gun. Lift the gun. Cause she would. It starts to lower, but she can't lower it. She has to keep it on you guys. And yet you can see her struggling with it. And we kept some of those moments in the. They're subtle, but you can tell it's just. She's not equipped, and yet she's trying her best. She lowers her voice when she, you know, yells, don't, you know, turn around. You know, she's being. She's doing the best she can to be tough and scary. And what I love is that Scott Sheppard, as David, sees right through it and doesn't take advantage of it, he goes the other way, which is all about what's going on in his mind as he sees this for the first time.
[13:39]
Sponsor
This podcast is sponsored by Rocket. The American dream of homeownership feels further and further out of reach for many people. Home ownership feels impossible. But Rocket is on a mission to help everyone get home. They've got a range of products and services designed to turn renters into owners, from lowering down payments to as little as 1% to helping turn your rent check into a forever home. Find out more@rocket.com Rocket Own the dream.
[14:10]
Troy Baker
David is unflappably calm.
[14:12]
Craig Mazin
Yep.
[14:13]
Troy Baker
Why?
[14:15]
Craig Mazin
Well, Neil and I talked a lot about when a certain concept begins to form in David's mind. And the concept is, I want her. So we've seen this episode now. There are no spoilers here. David's interest in Ellie is not merely paternal. There's something else. But he wants to have her. He wants to possess her. He wants to own her. And I think it happens immediately. I think he looks at this kid who is so far away from any of the people that he is currently the pastor for, and he is lit up. I think he is Intensely attracted to her force of nature, her power, her confidence.
[15:09]
Neil Druckmann
Like you think about, he has broken all the people around him. Right. It's like sheep. And here he sees a wolf like him.
[15:17]
Craig Mazin
The people that came to him came to him because they were sheep. So these sheep keep huddling towards David.
[15:26]
Neil Druckmann
But Ellie is different.
[15:27]
Craig Mazin
Yes, Ellie is different. And he is so impressed. And it's not only that she's holding a gun and that she got the drop on them and that he knows exactly who she is already. This is the girl that was with the guy that killed Alec, who was the man with the baseball bat two episodes ago, episode six. Who jabs Joel in the stomach with that broken handle of a baseball bat. That's the guy that Joel kills. That's the father of this little girl who's crying. And he knows all this. So does James. So when David says, go get her medicine, James is so confused. And I love that David. It's not code.
[16:18]
Troy Baker
It's not code.
[16:19]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, he's saying, because you could see, like, oh, go sneak around. What I'm really saying is, sneak around behind her and shoot her. No, he's saying, help her. Which is absolutely the weirdest possible decision. But that's the thing, I think, that already attracts David to Ellie, is that she was involved in killing.
[16:41]
Neil Druckmann
Well, he's a master manipulator. Right. He's like. He's making Ellie feel like she's in control, but. But he's in control the entire time.
[16:50]
Craig Mazin
Everything at that point was about the world shrinking down to two people, David and Ellie. David is carefully creating a circumstance whereby Ellie will lean forward. He's not gonna pull her, he's gonna make her want to lean forward. In the game, that discussion happens after Ellie. Ellie and David have to fight a lot of Infected together. And one of the hardest that ends.
[17:21]
Neil Druckmann
With a big bloater.
[17:22]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, it's a really hard encounter. So they're bonded by a certain trust because of gameplay.
[17:28]
Troy Baker
He cheers her on.
[17:30]
Neil Druckmann
In the gameplay, you save each other's lives. And that's how we build trust here. We have to build trust through a conversation.
[17:35]
Craig Mazin
Yes. Because we felt while we could do that, the plot implications of a lot of Infected running around out there, that can just get you at any moment, it would permeate throughout the episode. And we wanted it to function a different way. So it was about the conversation. And he's very crafty about letting her make her jokes, not pushing things, not taking things personally, being kind.
[18:03]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, she's insulting him quite a bit. And he Just. He rolls.
[18:06]
Troy Baker
Ah, well, you got me there. Yeah.
[18:07]
Craig Mazin
And then there's that moment where she's like. But seriously. And that's when he knows he has her because she's interested.
[18:15]
Scott Shephard
So I sent four of our people to a nearby town to scavenge what they could, and only three of them came back. And the one that didn't was a father. He had a daughter just like you. And her dad was taken from her. Turns out he was murdered by this crazy man. And get this. That crazy man was traveling with a little girl. You see, everything happens for a reason.
[18:52]
Craig Mazin
What I love is that Bella, the way Bella played, it was. It takes her, like, three seconds too long to realize. To realize. Because she's into the story. She's suckered in by him completely. And what I love about that is that's the first time I think we've seen it happen. No one's been able to fool her. No one's been able to sucker her. She's always one step ahead of everybody.
[19:17]
Troy Baker
As soon as she gets the penicillin from them, she runs back to give it to Joel.
[19:23]
Neil Druckmann
There's a lot of payoffs that would not work if the rest of the season didn't work as well as it did. And one of these moments that. One of my favorite moments from the game is Ellie, is she got this penicillin shot of penicillin, and she doesn't know how to. She just injects it where she thinks it might go. She's not sure if it's gonna work or not. And then she lies down next to Joel and leans into him. And I just. Again, I'm watching this, and I'm seeing Ellie and Joel, not like Bella and Pedro. But I love, again, that we wake up the next day and she does another injection. She's like. She doesn't know how much to give, where to do it, whether it's gonna work or not. And again, there's a little bit of this blind faith that this is all gonna work out.
[20:06]
Troy Baker
And there's nothing more helpless than having the solution and having no idea how to use it.
[20:10]
Craig Mazin
It's something I remembered feeling in the game. And it was, at the time, shocking when in the last of us, the game, you wake up, so to speak, as Ellie, you become Ellie. The screen goes black, and now you're playing as Ellie. It was shocking. And playing as Ely and not knowing if it was gonna be okay, if Joel was gonna live was really scary.
[20:36]
Troy Baker
Let's talk about the slap and the hand. So we see this exchange with Josiah and Joyce. And she says, what is it? And he looks at her and goes, venison.
[20:47]
Craig Mazin
No, it isn't.
[20:49]
Troy Baker
So that's a question. This is where we also have the scene that contrasts with earlier. Whereas Hannah interrupts, and instead of crying, she's now saying she's crying out for the vengeance of her father. Murder. David slaps her.
[21:02]
Scott Shephard
I know you think you don't have a father anymore, but the truth is, Hannah, you will always have a father. And you will show him respect when he's speaking.
[21:14]
Craig Mazin
This is a big deal. Like, we talked about this a lot when we expanded this out. We thought that it was important to humanize David, humanize the world around him, make us feel, at least when he was initially with Elie in that sawmill, that he's a good guy. You know what? He's forgiven her, which is a very Christian thing to do. In fact, he's given her medicine so that she can save Joel.
[21:43]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, he's been honest with her.
[21:44]
Craig Mazin
He has been honest with her the entire time. And we need to make it clear that that isn't the complete truth. But we don't want to go all the way into showing who he fully is yet. And this is the product of that. It was important for us to show the audience that he is not the nicest guy in the world. He says to Hannah after he hits her, I know you think you don't have a father anymore, but you will always have a father. It's about the most patriarchal thing you can possibly say. And what does Father do? Father comforts you, Father teaches you, and then father hits you every night.
[22:29]
Neil Druckmann
But it's out of love.
[22:29]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, but that's the thing in his mind that is love. Because he doesn't understand what love is.
[22:37]
Neil Druckmann
I mean, there's a lot of dark in this episode, but to me, this moment is so dark of, like, he hits this girl, and then he does this, like, really gentle motion to her mom, sit back down. Yep, sit back down. I got this.
[22:48]
Craig Mazin
So controlling, right?
[22:50]
Neil Druckmann
And again, the control he has where, like, the mom then sits back down.
[22:54]
Craig Mazin
Sits back down.
[22:54]
Troy Baker
To me, the look is, keep her in line. Keep yourself in line, because you remember what happens if you don't.
[23:01]
Craig Mazin
He also. He then reaches his hand down to Hannah, but he doesn't take her hand. He just reaches down and makes her take his hand. And that's about the most David thing you can do. That's this other level of, you see, you wanted to.
[23:19]
Neil Druckmann
That is like the DNA of abusive relationships.
[23:22]
Craig Mazin
It is like, this guy is the model of a gaslighter, a manipulator, and an abuser.
[23:31]
Troy Baker
To somewhat stay chronological, there's this great shot where we're now hunting Ellie.
[23:38]
Craig Mazin
And what's interesting is your instinct, James's instinct, and Timothy and Marco's and Josiah's, is to kill this little girl for what she did because she and whoever that guy is killed their friend Alec. And David won't let you.
[23:54]
Troy Baker
I shot the horse to stop her. I just want the girl gone. I just. Cause she. I feel the fact that she could easily usurp my position. In the same way that David intuits that he has found an equal. I think there's something inside of James that senses that from this girl as well. He looks at her differently.
[24:10]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. Yeah. James is not his equal. And that's what's sort of tragic, is that it's the reason. The first real conversation that David has with James is about David challenging James. Faith. And James says, no, I still believe. And you would think, okay, this is like, because I need you with me. And he's like, we're going hunting. You know, this is what bad people do. They make you crave their approval. And then when they give you the approval, it makes you feel things that you probably shouldn't be feeling. That's how they manipulate you, and that's how David manipulates James. But the whole time, David doesn't really love James. David has contempt for James. David has contempt for practically every single person in that church of his.
[25:00]
Troy Baker
I would even think that from my perspective, contempt was just a little bit too much thumb on the scale of an investment. It was disposable. You serve a purpose for me right now. So then after David and James kidnap Ellie, she wakes up in this cage and David is there trying to prove he's a good guy.
[25:24]
Scott Shephard
Did you hear me say the others want to kill you? Yeah, but I stopped them. Fuck you. Why don't we just start with your name? Iche. Hey, listen to me. You can't survive on your own. No one can. But I can help you. Let me protect you.
[25:45]
Craig Mazin
I'm not on my own.
[25:49]
Scott Shephard
Right. Your friend. And how is he?
[25:56]
Craig Mazin
What's happening? There is again David doing this thing of slowly luring her, and Ellie doing her best to put on a brave face. She is concussed. She is trapped in a cage. She is unarmed. Joel is out there dying somewhere. This guy's saying, hey, I'm keeping you alive. And she's telling him to eat shit, which is, you know what's your name? Eat shit. There's no more Ellie thing to do than that.
[26:30]
Neil Druckmann
By the way, the what's your name? I think it goes back to the conversation we just had of like, you're in this room where everybody's eating human meat and only some people know because there's a secret. And trust only goes so far. And so much of this back and forth, this chess game that they're playing is about trust. And the question he keeps asking her, what's your name? What's your name? What's your name? And she will. She knows this is what she has over him, and she's saving it for.
[26:55]
Craig Mazin
Like, this very specific moment.
[26:57]
Troy Baker
Let's talk about Joel. There's some really cool things that, again, we get to enrich the game. There's a physicality that throughout every episode, Pedro is brought to this, and this is a shining example of that. We have the fight.
[27:09]
Neil Druckmann
That fight is so cool.
[27:11]
Craig Mazin
It's like, I love that fight.
[27:12]
Neil Druckmann
I was before watching it last night with Helly Gross, co wrote the Second Game, and she starts laughing, and I'm like, what are you laughing at? She's like, just. Joel at 10% is better than two of these guys at 100%.
[27:27]
Troy Baker
But the only reason this, to me is true, what makes it so good, is he fights smart, which is, I have one shot at this and I got to get this knife in his neck. If I can get the knife in his neck, it's over.
[27:40]
Craig Mazin
And it's also. He is fighting for Ellie. Yes. If it were just him, I think he would just be like, oh, for fuck's sake, just do it. Just kill me already. I'm useless. I'm broken. I'm lying on this mattress and I'm dying. But the thought that Ellie might still be alive, that Ellie might need him, that is what gets him off the mattress. That's. Well, that and the penicillin, which is derived from a fungus, which I love, that's what gets him going. And Ollie really stressed that this fight should have a sad desperation to it that Joel is hanging. He stabs this guy and then hangs onto him because he doesn't have the strength to stand anymore. And then they both fall to the ground, and it is ugly.
[28:25]
Neil Druckmann
And by the way, that guy has the coolest death. Oh, he wears the look on his face.
[28:31]
Craig Mazin
He did a great job, and it is horrible.
[28:34]
Troy Baker
We should mention that the Ali that we've been talking about is the director of this episode, Ali Abbasi.
[28:40]
Craig Mazin
And they. Ali is not, as you know, he's not a director that just likes to do one or two takes. And that was, I think those guys had to try and kill each other about a hundred times that day. And the level of commitment from both of them is extraordinary. And that grounded level of violence is what we're talking about. We've been talking about it all along. We want you to feel it, we want you to feel it as much as possible and we want you to even wonder, even if it's subconsciously, even if it's for a fleeting second, who loved this man? Who did he love? How did he get here? Is this what he deserves?
[29:18]
Troy Baker
Names are important. There's constantly names being used. And we saw that with Brian, we saw that with Alec. We've seen this use of like, these are real people. Josiah, Timothy, Marco, these are people, they're people.
[29:30]
Craig Mazin
And Josiah and Timothy and Marco and James are all following someone who is telling them to do these things.
[29:41]
Troy Baker
After this fight that Joel has, we are back now with Ellie in a cell and David and Ellie have a very tough talk.
[29:52]
Craig Mazin
That's the scene where we get to this somewhat more developed truth about David and why he likes her so much, which is not merely this sexual, misplaced sexual desire in a 14 year old girl, but this recognition that he's found a kindred spirit. And that is a very disturbing thing because on the one hand, he hasn't. Elie is a far more decent person than him, no question. But on the other hand, he does put his finger on something. Two things. One, he talks about how cordyceps is the thing that set him free. That he looked at what cordyceps did, which is to be fruitful and to multiply and to protect its own through.
[30:49]
Neil Druckmann
Violence if it must, which is often organized religion.
[30:54]
Craig Mazin
And that is his definition of love. He says to secure a future, that line to secure future is part of a white supremacist anthem. To secure a future for our white children, or whatever it is. It's this. We've talked a lot about these two kinds of loves. And this xenophobic, protective, defensive, insular, tribalistic love. David is taken to its furthest extreme. And so of course he admires cordyceps because that's what cordyceps does. But he says to Ellie, you have a violent heart. I should know. I've always had a violent heart. Now he's right and he's wrong. She does have a violent heart. In fact, everything he says about her seems to come to pass, including, if I put this knife in your hand, you'd stab me. With it. Well, he gets more than that. She does have a violent heart, but she also has a beautiful heart. Ellie has both kinds of love within her. David only has one, and it is dark and is possessive.
[31:54]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, they both have these violent tendencies. But whereas David's a narcissist.
[32:00]
Craig Mazin
Yes.
[32:00]
Neil Druckmann
Ellie's overflowing with empathy.
[32:03]
Troy Baker
What do you think David's plan was?
[32:07]
Craig Mazin
I think he wanted her to recognize that. That he was her way to safety now that her other father figure was presumably dead or dying. He did not expect Joel to come back. And purposefully, Joel doesn't save the day. I think he wanted her to begrudgingly begin to trust him and then she would become his wife.
[32:36]
Neil Druckmann
He wanted her to fall in love with him, to look up to him and fall in love with him and have someone like her worship him.
[32:42]
Troy Baker
Do you think that he would have stayed in Silverlake, or do you think he would have left?
[32:46]
Craig Mazin
I think that he really did believe that she would help him. I think he was being honest when he said, look at us. Look at what's happened. I could use the help. God knows I could use the help. He needs a partner. He doesn't have one.
[32:59]
Neil Druckmann
He feels like he's smarter than everybody else, and that's why he believes he can't have a conversation on his level with anybody else. And then here's Ellie where that could be that person.
[33:11]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. There's a moment in the game that we replicate identically, because we have to, because it's brilliant, where David finally reveals the truth of his attraction to her.
[33:23]
Scott Shephard
Think of what we could do together. As strong as we are, we'd make this place perfect. We'd grow spread out, and we'd do whatever we needed for our people.
[33:37]
Craig Mazin
People. And she plays along.
[33:40]
Scott Shephard
Imagine the life we could build.
[33:46]
Neil Druckmann
It's that, oh, by the way, that O is again. It's like I thought I was hearing Ashley Johnson moment.
[33:53]
Craig Mazin
And that's not a moment where we sat Bella down and said, now watch this now. It was the opposite, in fact. I remember on that day, Bella and Ali were like, you know, they're blocking and stuff, and I'm over here probably, you know, working on another episode, writing, you know, in the corner on my laptop. And they're like, hey, can you come over here for a second? What exactly does. Because neither one of them had really studied that scene. I was like, oh, this is interesting. Let me explain exactly what's going on here. And I do. I remember laughing because I sort of. This is what's going on. You're saying this because you want him to think that you are getting it and that you're into it. And you're only doing that because you've made the calculation that you'll be able to break his finger and grab the keys and get out of here.
[34:42]
Scott Shephard
Let's see what I go tell the others now.
[34:46]
Craig Mazin
Ellie.
[34:49]
Scott Shephard
What?
[34:50]
Neil Druckmann
Tell them that Ellie is a little girl who broke her fucking sinker.
[34:56]
Craig Mazin
When David smashes her face against these, the bars of the cell, she is hurt, she is bleeding from her face. And when she yells at him, tell.
[35:06]
Neil Druckmann
Him she's still defiant. Yeah, Give him the satisfaction.
[35:09]
Craig Mazin
Broke your fucking finger. And this is where I used to call Bella my little savage, because she can do these things where it's terrifying, where she's like an animal.
[35:18]
Troy Baker
And that's when she finally gives her name.
[35:20]
Craig Mazin
Yes. Yeah.
[35:22]
Troy Baker
That moment, both in the game and in the show, rapidly accelerates the situation. David and James go back into the room with a cleaver. And Ellie, in the scramble, manages to bite David. And right before they're able to kill her, she thinks of a way out.
[35:41]
Neil Druckmann
I'm infected. I'm infected.
[35:46]
Scott Shephard
And now so are you.
[35:49]
Neil Druckmann
Which, by the way, right, if you think about that scene, they could have gone in there and shot her. But that's not satisfying for David. David wants to win. He has to, like, kill her slowly. And he wants her to know that he's in control. The thing I've always loved about the sequence is that it's a chess game between these two characters of who has control. And Ellie has an ace up her sleeve, right?
[36:11]
Troy Baker
And of course, David doesn't know that, but he has revealed that he has a violent heart. And here is where he is going to show her just how violent that it is.
[36:18]
Craig Mazin
This is very close to how it functioned in the game because it was one of those moments that was so visceral in every sense of the word. And Ellie interrupts with the final card she has to play, which. And I remember when I was playing the game, I had no idea, how the hell is she gonna get out of this? It's seemingly impossible. And it didn't occur to me, I had forgotten when I played that she could do this, that she could say this. It struck me as so smart. And it works the same way here. The dialogue is the same. Even how she kills James is the same.
[36:56]
Troy Baker
But she's poked around violence before, but she's never. This act of violence has never happened with her. And she does it almost instinctually.
[37:07]
Craig Mazin
Well, she, by this point, in the story has committed acts of violence and she herself has been violenced. And right now she's in full fight or flight, live or die. She has been reduced by this man to being an animal.
[37:27]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, she's not even processing what's happening right now.
[37:30]
Craig Mazin
She uses the last of her intellect to buy herself some time. And then she goes into absolute survival mode. And in survival mode, your life means nothing. His life means nothing. The only lives she cares about are her own and Joel's.
[37:47]
Troy Baker
Ellie is trying to escape. She accidentally sets the building on fire. And that is when we have this.
[37:54]
Craig Mazin
Terrifying moment with David, when Ellie kills David. We are doing what was there in the game.
[38:03]
Neil Druckmann
There's something about this version, I will say, that's harder to watch and is more disturbing.
[38:08]
Craig Mazin
It is. And part of it is that there's that one less thing of separation between you and reality because it's not animated, it's a person because there is blood flying everywhere, including hitting the lens. And then it's also just telling Bella, you have no restraints, you have no leash, you have no nothing. Just do what needs to be done. And when she kills him, it's so clear that he's beyond dead after the fifth or sixth blow. And she keeps going and then she slows down and then she starts up again. And it's that moment where you realize that this just everything pouring out of her. And when she finally stops and she looks off, it's. I don't know how you could portray trauma better, more convincingly, more accurately than what is on her face in that moment and what is in her eyes. It is so upsetting.
[39:13]
Troy Baker
There is one moment that as close to the game as it is, is very different. Even though it's a very small thing how we get out of that moment. Because in the game, she enacts her revenge on David with extreme prejudice. Joel takes her from that and tries to pull her away from that violence. In this, nothing is there to stop Ellie from that scene. And she meets up with Joel outside and he says, it's me, it's me. Why the difference?
[39:45]
Neil Druckmann
I think our conversation, like, we didn't want it to happen with the fire around. Like, there's the danger of the fire. It just felt a little different in live action than it did in the game.
[39:53]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, there was a question of, like, how does Joel get inside if the keys are on David? It was like a little bit of a logic thing. And then it was a little bit of like, wanting our Ellie to have completed it to the point where she could literally walk away on her own.
[40:08]
Neil Druckmann
But it was important when the sequence was constructed in the game. And I think it's the same for the show, which is, like, we want the audience or the player to think Joel is going to save Ellie, because that's what this character traditionally does. And it was important that. No, no, no. Ellie saves herself. Yes, except that he does save her, but now he has to do a very different thing that a parent does, which is he saves her emotionally.
[40:32]
Craig Mazin
It's okay. It's okay.
[40:37]
Scott Shephard
It's okay, Baby girl. Look at you.
[40:44]
Neil Druckmann
Before she loses her sanity, he's there to bring her back now. She will never be the same after this, and we'll see the consequences of that, like, in the next episode. The whole scene was constructed when we made the game. And this is one of those sequences that made me want to make this game, that the whole thing was kind of a study of a more stereotypical hero you would have in a person like Joel. And then there is one moment in time towards the end of the story where he would get so incapacitated. This is how it was pitched, that the roles would flip, and then you would play as this girl protecting this man. To me, like, almost the entire story hinges on this sequence. And I remember when we were making the game, I was so nervous about whether this was gonna work or not, because I'm like, if this doesn't work, then that means the whole story's not working. And then when I finally kind of played that sequence, I'm like, you know, it's one of the most emotional parts of the story where, like, Joel comes and embraces her and calls her baby girl, and you're like, oh, my God. Like, look how much these two characters have been through. And I was so nervous whether this would hit as hard on the show, and I wanted it to be hit as hard on the show as it did in the game. When I watched this finally, like, I watched, like, two episodes before, so I could go into this with full context. I'm watching it, and it's different. She stumbles on into the snow, and just a contrast of, like, the blood on her skin against the white snow. And Bella does such an incredible job of, like, this disembodied performance where she's not quite there. And then Pedro grabs her. And the way he looks at her, there's a sadness of, like, I couldn't protect you from this again. Another failure to, like, another notch of failure. And I'm bawling, I'm crying. Not just, like, tears in my eyes. I'm like, it's waterworks. And I was like, I pick up my phone, I just text Craig this one sentence. We did it. Yeah. And it could only work again if all. Everything that preceded it was working.
[42:47]
Craig Mazin
I continue to marvel at both of them when Joel finally finds her and she finally realizes it's him. That, to me, is why I cry every time, because I know what just happened. And the same person that obliterated a man's face with a cleaver is now a little girl who is just needs her father's affection, clinging to her father, who is calling her baby girl and putting his coat around her and leaning her off to safety. It's like, it's a testament again to the story that Neil created and the way that you and Ashley perform those scenes. All of that is the text that we pull from all of it. And that's why I've loved this job. I love this job. As crazy as this job was, as long and exhausting as it was, I love it. And I want to just keep doing it because of moments like that. Uh, it's so satisfying to know that we've put something like that out there, even though it's so upsetting, it's also so beautiful. And my hat's off to everybody that worked on that episode. Everyone. But especially you two ding dongs for all you've done.
[44:10]
Troy Baker
We're not done yet. We have one more to go and that's where we'll pick it up next week. Craig, thanks a million, man, for being here.
[44:18]
Craig Mazin
Thanks, Troy.
[44:19]
Troy Baker
And of course, the same to you, Neil.
[44:21]
Neil Druckmann
Goodbye.
[44:27]
Troy Baker
This has been the official the Last of Us podcast from hbo. Again, I'm Troy Baker, joined by Craig Mason and Neil Druckmann. You can stream new episodes of the HBO original series the Last of Us Sundays on HBO Max. The podcast episodes are available after episodes of the Last of Us air on hbo. You can find this show wherever you listen to of podcasts like and follow HBO's the Last of Us on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. And as always, when you're lost in the darkness, look for the light.
[44:53]
Neil Druckmann
This is the official companion podcast for.
[44:56]
Craig Mazin
HBO's the Last of Us, hosted by Troy Baker. Our producers are Elliot Adler, Bria Mariette and Noah Camuso.
[45:03]
Neil Druckmann
Darby Maloney is our editor. The show is mixed by Hannis Brown.
[45:07]
Craig Mazin
Our executive producers are Gabrielle Luna Lewis and Bari Finkel. Production music is courtesy of HBO and you can watch episodes of the Last of us on HBO Max.
[45:22]
Neil Druckmann
@ Rocket. We believe everyone deserves their shot at the American Dream. So if you're feeling locked out of home ownership, we're here to give you back the keys. We're opening doors, breaking down walls, and doing everything we can to turn renters into owners. And we're not going to stop until we help everyone home. To find out more, visit rocket.com Rocket Own the Dream.

Summary5 min read

Detailed Summary of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast - Season 1, Episode 8: "When We Are In Need"

Introduction

In Season 1, Episode 8 of "HBO's The Last of Us Podcast," host Troy Baker, alongside showrunners Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann, delves into the intricacies of the pivotal episode titled "When We Are In Need." This episode stands out for its intense character development, exploration of thematic elements, and critical plot progression that bridges the narrative between the original video game and its television adaptation.

Exploration of David and His Community

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the character David and his community, highlighting the stark contrast between different societal structures within the series.

Craig Mazin begins by explaining the concept, stating, “We’ve been doing this all season, looking at the other. In the game, we see through a fixed perspective from Ellie, and we don’t have to. We can actually start on the other side of it and present the other as humane and with, in this case, a guy named David” (02:38). David is portrayed as a preacher leading a community that relies heavily on him for comfort and guidance. However, underlying his serene exterior is a dark intent, as Mazin reveals, “Things are not going well. He knows it. And he comforts a child” (02:47).

The discussion further delves into the dangers of theocracy. Mazin articulates, “Jackson is run by a woman who was a prosecutor... David is not only theocratic in nature but he's also paternalistic” (08:02). This comparison emphasizes how secular leadership, represented by Jackson, fosters a thriving community, whereas David’s theocratic rule teeters on the edge of fear and oppression.

Themes of Faith and Manipulation

Neil Druckmann adds depth to the conversation by discussing David’s manipulation tactics, noting, “David has fallen too far into, like, everything's going to work out because everything happens for a reason” (07:18). This blind faith becomes a tool for David to control his followers, masking his true intentions. Mazin reinforces this by explaining, “David is carefully creating a circumstance whereby Ellie will lean forward. He’s not going to pull her, he’s going to make her want to lean forward” (09:38), illustrating his strategic manipulation.

Ellie and Joel's Journey

Transitioning to Ellie and Joel, the hosts highlight Ellie’s growth and resilience. After managing to stitch Joel’s wound, Ellie demonstrates remarkable resilience, embodying the teachings Joel has imparted. Mazin observes, “Ellie has been able to stitch him up... her aspiration to be like Joel” (07:28). This scene underscores Ellie’s maturation and her increasing capability to handle dire situations independently.

Ellie’s transition to hunting signifies her step towards self-sufficiency. Mazin compares this to similar sequences in the game, emphasizing how Ellie’s actions are a testament to her evolving survival skills and emotional strength.

Key Scenes and Their Analysis

A focal point of the episode is the intense confrontation between Ellie and the antagonists, David and James. This encounter is described as a strategic "chess game," where control and survival instincts clash.

Mazin explains, “This is a chess game between these two characters of who has control” (35:40). Ellie’s defiance is palpable as she confronts David, showcasing her inner strength despite her youth. The tension culminates in Ellie’s act of violence against David, a moment that marks a critical turning point in her character arc.

The emotional weight of this scene is further explored, with Mazin expressing, “We want you to feel it as much as possible and we want you to even wonder, even if it’s subconsciously, who loved this man? Who did he love?” (29:18). This depth of storytelling highlights the complex interplay between trauma, survival, and humanity.

Adaptation Differences: Game vs Show

While the series remains faithful to the game's narrative, certain elements have been uniquely adapted for television. One notable difference is the portrayal of Ellie's act of killing David. In the game, Joel intervenes, whereas in the show, Ellie completes this act herself, adding a layer of autonomy and emotional depth to her character.

Mazin discusses this adaptation choice, saying, “We should mention that the Ali that we've been talking about is the director of this episode, Ali Abbasi... the actors had to try and kill each other about a hundred times that day” (28:34). This commitment to realism amplifies the visceral impact of the scene, making Ellie's decision more profound and heart-wrenching.

Themes and Symbolism

The episode heavily features biblical scripture, particularly Revelation 21, underscoring themes of rebirth and moving past tragedy. Mazin states, “It’s about rebirth. It’s about the idea that there can be a new world that is better than the world that we know or have left behind” (03:55). This symbolism connects to the broader narrative of survival and hope amidst devastation.

Furthermore, the use of Cordyceps serves as a metaphor for David’s ambitions. Mazin draws parallels, saying, “Cordyceps multiplies, feeds, and protects its children... he secures his future with violence if it must” (00:37). This comparison enriches the narrative, portraying David’s tactics as both nurturing and destructive.

Emotional Impact and Performances

The emotional intensity of the episode is amplified by the exceptional performances of the cast. Mazin praises Bella Ramsey’s portrayal, noting, “Bella does such an incredible job... it is so clear that he’s beyond dead... she keeps going and then she starts up again” (23:37). This authenticity brings raw emotion to the screen, making Ellie’s pain and resilience palpable.

Troy Baker shares his personal reaction, stating, “I was bawling, I’m crying... We did it” (40:08), highlighting the profound emotional connections and the effective storytelling that resonates deeply with both actors and audiences.

Conclusion

Season 1, Episode 8 of "HBO's The Last of Us Podcast" offers a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of the episode "When We Are In Need." Through insightful discussions on character motivations, thematic symbolism, and the adaptation process, the podcast provides listeners with a deeper understanding of the narrative complexities and emotional depth of the series. The collaboration between Troy Baker, Craig Mazin, and Neil Druckmann ensures an engaging and informative analysis, making it an essential listen for fans and newcomers alike.

Notable Quotes

Craig Mazin (02:38): “In the game, we see through a fixed perspective from Ellie... we can actually start on the other side of it and present the other as humane.”
Scott Shephard (05:04): “We’re so cut off from other settlements, that if anything goes slightly wrong, people are going to start dying and we are going to start starving.”
Neil Druckmann (07:18): “David has fallen too far into, like, everything's going to work out because everything happens for a reason.”
Craig Mazin (22:37): “That is like the DNA of abusive relationships.”
Neil Druckmann (27:09): “That fight is so cool.”
Troy Baker (36:17): “Ellie is trying to escape. She accidentally sets the building on fire. And that is when we have this terrifying moment with David, when Ellie kills David.”

These quotes encapsulate the depth of analysis and the nuanced perspectives offered by the hosts and guests throughout the episode, providing valuable insights into the characters and themes of "The Last of Us."

Loading summary

Transcript183 lines

[00:01]
Sponsor
This podcast is sponsored by Rocket. The American dream of homeownership feels further and further out of reach. For many people, homeownership feels impossible. But Rocket is on a mission to help everyone get home. They've got a range of products and services designed to turn renters into owners, from lowering down payments to as little as 1% to helping turn your rent check into a forever home. Find out more@rocket.com Rocket Own the dream.
[00:38]
Scott Shephard
What does Cordyceps do? Is it evil? No. It's fruitful. It multiplies. It feeds and protects its children. And it secures its future with violence if it must. It loves.
[00:59]
Troy Baker
Welcome to the official podcast for HBO's original series, the Last of Us. I am your host Troy Baker, and I had the amazing opportunity to play Joel in the Last of Us video game. But today I am here with the showrunners, Craig Mason.
[01:12]
Craig Mazin
Good to be back.
[01:13]
Troy Baker
And Neil Druckmann.
[01:14]
Scott Shephard
Hey.
[01:15]
Troy Baker
And we are discussing a very special episode, perhaps one of my favorites, episode eight, titled when we are In Need. Now.
[01:23]
Craig Mazin
I thought you were going to say titled. I'm in this.
[01:28]
Troy Baker
I. That's why it's my favorite.
[01:29]
Craig Mazin
It's. It's.
[01:30]
Troy Baker
It's my favorite for many, many reasons. And I'm warning you now, this is as spoilery as it gets. So if you haven't watched the episode yet, you're going to want to. This is a very different kind of cold open for many reasons. The image that we're given is very, very cold, bitter cold. And we hear something that up to this point has been absent in this world. And that is scripture.
[01:57]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. So we're here in a different place and a different season. And this is one of those places where Neil and I discussed how to expand the other. We've been doing this all season, looking at the other. That in the game, we see through a fixed perspective from Ellie and. Okay, we don't have to. We can actually start on the other side of it and present the other as humane and with, in this case, a guy named David. His own goals, his own community. He is a preacher. There are people clearly relying on him.
[02:39]
Scott Shephard
He.
[02:39]
Craig Mazin
Things are not going well. He knows it. And he comforts a child. He comforts a little girl who's about Ellie's age.
[02:47]
Scott Shephard
Do you remember what comes next? And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. For there will be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying. Neither will there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away. Do you know what that means? Good.
[03:19]
Craig Mazin
There's an intimation that her father has been killed. And there's also the undercurrent that something else is going on here that's worse than just sadness. And if I may, we understand that because this tall, lanky drink of water named Troy Baker, playing a character named James, shares a look of recognition with this guy David. Something is going on here that these two guys know about and maybe other people don't.
[03:50]
Troy Baker
Revelations 21 and I saw a new heaven and a new earth. Why this verse?
[03:55]
Craig Mazin
It's about rebirth. It's about the idea that there can be a new world that is better than the world that we know or have left behind. And it is also a verse about moving past tragedy and grief. It's something that I think David, as played by Scott Sheppard here, has read every time someone has died. I think it's his go to. I think it's a call to maintain faith even in the face of tragedy and loss.
[04:32]
Neil Druckmann
It's also where he found faith, which we discover later, which is like he's discovered faith through this massive loss that happened on our planet.
[04:39]
Craig Mazin
Yep.
[04:40]
Troy Baker
Once we leave that moment, now we're out into their city. And what I love seeing this, especially now that I've seen the episode with Jackson, is you're presenting two possible outcomes. Whereas Jackson has prospered and flourished and is a functioning communistic society, here is one that is the underbelly, where it's in order to control. You must do that through fear and oppression.
[05:05]
Craig Mazin
Well, you can certainly read into this the dangers of theocracy. Although I think they're just unlucky. That's part of it.
[05:12]
Neil Druckmann
Why they settle down. They're just unlucky.
[05:14]
Craig Mazin
They picked a bad spot.
[05:15]
Troy Baker
What about it was bad, do you think?
[05:17]
Craig Mazin
Well, in my mind, this place must have looked fantastic. In the spring, there are all these buildings. It's a resort.
[05:27]
Troy Baker
Silver Lake Resort.
[05:28]
Craig Mazin
It's a resort. There's a beautiful lake and there are a lot of trees and probably quite a bit of game running around. You have this steakhouse, and this is all taken directly from the game, Todd's Steakhouse, which is instantly convertible into a community gathering space and a church and a house of worship. And you don't stop to think about things that are not particularly religious but rather scientific. Like, this is Colorado. We are up against the Rocky Mountains, and when the winter comes, this place is going to be unrecognizable from what it is in the spring. And the food is going to run out. The weather is going to be bitter cold. And we are so cut off from other settlements, that if. If anything goes slightly wrong, if it's even a slightly worse winter than we expect, people are going to start dying and we are going to start starving. And that is where we find you, James and David contemplating what to do.
[06:38]
Neil Druckmann
There's also a conversation that, you know, is reflected in the dialogue between James and David, which is faith. And faith can, just like love can be wonderful or sometimes terrible, I sense doubt in there.
[06:57]
Troy Baker
They haven't lost faith in you, David.
[06:59]
Scott Shephard
They're just scared. Not from them.
[07:09]
Craig Mazin
I still believe.
[07:14]
Troy Baker
It'S been. The last six months have been hard.
[07:19]
Scott Shephard
For all of us. But I need to know you're with me.
[07:28]
Craig Mazin
Yeah.
[07:31]
Scott Shephard
Good. Now go get our guns. We're going hunting.
[07:37]
Neil Druckmann
And in this instance, I think that David has fallen too far into, like, everything's going to work out because everything happens for a reason. We are in these trials for a reason, but now it's becoming too much. And I think he let faith kind of override it. The positive thing of faith, you could maintain hope in these extraordinary circumstances, which is what he does. But he hasn't prepared for the winter in the way that Jackson has.
[08:02]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. Jackson is run by a woman who was a prosecutor. She was a woman of law. And it was founded, therefore, on the bedrock principles of law. I believe very strongly in the separation of church and state, not only because it's important to protect people who are of religious minorities, but because religion doesn't do a good job of running a state. I believe religion does a terrible job of running a state. And if you look at theocracies around the world, you will see this being repeated time and time again. Where there is a theocracy, your state starts to fail. David is not only theocratic in nature, but he's also paternalistic in nature, which is another interesting thing to talk about. The idea of how a patriarchal theocracy functions here versus a democracy built on secular law run by both men and women. In Jackson, there are these very clear differences. And I think our show is not shying away from saying one is better than the other.
[09:10]
Neil Druckmann
Doesn't help that he's a narcissist and everything is about him and the love that he receives.
[09:16]
Craig Mazin
And this is, you know, the people that tend to end up running theocracies are probably not as godly as they think.
[09:24]
Neil Druckmann
But he's also extremely confident at adversity. Like, that's why I think he makes the hard calls. Just like Kathleen, just like Marlene, just like a lot of the people we've seen in this story, he can make the hard calls that no one else can make.
[09:39]
Troy Baker
Once we move away from David and James and that conversation you talk about, we're back with Ellie and Joel, and we see perhaps a little progress because she has been able to stitch him up. And we see a remarkable bedside manner for Ellie. Just to place this in the time. How much time has passed, would you.
[09:56]
Craig Mazin
Say to me, it's been a day or two?
[09:59]
Neil Druckmann
Not that much.
[10:00]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, she's sewn him up.
[10:01]
Neil Druckmann
But what I love about the sequence is that there's these long moments where you just see her staring. And the idea of, you wouldn't know. You're like, I stitched him. Is this working? It's kind of turning infectious. I'm not sure. Is he gonna survive? Die? I don't know.
[10:15]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, I mean, the wound still looks really. The discoloration is spreading. And more importantly, Joel's not waking up. He's in and out of consciousness. He's not eating, he's not drinking. She's tapping water to his lips. She's doing everything she can. But she is a kid now. She's also a kid that, as we've talked about, has this aspiration to be like Joel. And so I think when she's sitting there looking at him and she's starving herself. Cause they're down to their last little scrap of beef jerky. She thinks, well, what would Joel do here? And what Joel would do is pick up that gun, go out there and shoot a deer. I mean, remember Ellie asked, teach me how to hunt. I want to know how to hunt. Well, this is her chance to go out there and hunt.
[11:06]
Troy Baker
Ellie takes the rifle and she forages out because they need food. And we have moments of this with the first kind of sequence with Ellie in the game where she is now hunting. And we have this moment with a deer. And we get to actually see this where she's trying to remember just the steps that Joel walked her through of what to do. And she breathes. And we have this very intimate. You chose to be very close with Ellie and also with the deer. And then we find our two other characters, David and James. And now, just as Joel has had the drop, someone's gotten the drop on him before. Ellie has now got the drop on these two guys.
[11:49]
Scott Shephard
Turn and face me.
[11:51]
Craig Mazin
Slow.
[11:52]
Scott Shephard
Any sudden moves, I put one right between your eyes.
[11:55]
Neil Druckmann
Ditto for buddy boy.
[11:59]
Scott Shephard
You're quite a hunter. We didn't even hear you coming.
[12:02]
Craig Mazin
Turn around and walk away.
[12:04]
Troy Baker
There was a specific choice that felt like it was Made. She doesn't know how to hold that rifle. Well.
[12:10]
Craig Mazin
No, it's too heavy. And that rifle bigger than her. It is. And that rifle that we're using there is the real thing. We, you know, obviously stressed gun safety all the time. Most of the time when our actors are holding guns, they're not loaded with blanks. They're obviously never loaded with real ammunition. In that case, the gun as she's walking around is unloaded, but it's the real rifle, and it is heavy. And Bella, like, the next day, was feeling it, like, in her biceps and her pecs, like, it was hard for her to hold that thing up. And we would. Throughout the scene where she confronts your character and David from off camera, we would occasionally be like, lift the gun. Lift the gun. Cause she would. It starts to lower, but she can't lower it. She has to keep it on you guys. And yet you can see her struggling with it. And we kept some of those moments in the. They're subtle, but you can tell it's just. She's not equipped, and yet she's trying her best. She lowers her voice when she, you know, yells, don't, you know, turn around. You know, she's being. She's doing the best she can to be tough and scary. And what I love is that Scott Sheppard, as David, sees right through it and doesn't take advantage of it, he goes the other way, which is all about what's going on in his mind as he sees this for the first time.
[13:39]
Sponsor
This podcast is sponsored by Rocket. The American dream of homeownership feels further and further out of reach for many people. Home ownership feels impossible. But Rocket is on a mission to help everyone get home. They've got a range of products and services designed to turn renters into owners, from lowering down payments to as little as 1% to helping turn your rent check into a forever home. Find out more@rocket.com Rocket Own the dream.
[14:10]
Troy Baker
David is unflappably calm.
[14:12]
Craig Mazin
Yep.
[14:13]
Troy Baker
Why?
[14:15]
Craig Mazin
Well, Neil and I talked a lot about when a certain concept begins to form in David's mind. And the concept is, I want her. So we've seen this episode now. There are no spoilers here. David's interest in Ellie is not merely paternal. There's something else. But he wants to have her. He wants to possess her. He wants to own her. And I think it happens immediately. I think he looks at this kid who is so far away from any of the people that he is currently the pastor for, and he is lit up. I think he is Intensely attracted to her force of nature, her power, her confidence.
[15:09]
Neil Druckmann
Like you think about, he has broken all the people around him. Right. It's like sheep. And here he sees a wolf like him.
[15:17]
Craig Mazin
The people that came to him came to him because they were sheep. So these sheep keep huddling towards David.
[15:26]
Neil Druckmann
But Ellie is different.
[15:27]
Craig Mazin
Yes, Ellie is different. And he is so impressed. And it's not only that she's holding a gun and that she got the drop on them and that he knows exactly who she is already. This is the girl that was with the guy that killed Alec, who was the man with the baseball bat two episodes ago, episode six. Who jabs Joel in the stomach with that broken handle of a baseball bat. That's the guy that Joel kills. That's the father of this little girl who's crying. And he knows all this. So does James. So when David says, go get her medicine, James is so confused. And I love that David. It's not code.
[16:18]
Troy Baker
It's not code.
[16:19]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, he's saying, because you could see, like, oh, go sneak around. What I'm really saying is, sneak around behind her and shoot her. No, he's saying, help her. Which is absolutely the weirdest possible decision. But that's the thing, I think, that already attracts David to Ellie, is that she was involved in killing.
[16:41]
Neil Druckmann
Well, he's a master manipulator. Right. He's like. He's making Ellie feel like she's in control, but. But he's in control the entire time.
[16:50]
Craig Mazin
Everything at that point was about the world shrinking down to two people, David and Ellie. David is carefully creating a circumstance whereby Ellie will lean forward. He's not gonna pull her, he's gonna make her want to lean forward. In the game, that discussion happens after Ellie. Ellie and David have to fight a lot of Infected together. And one of the hardest that ends.
[17:21]
Neil Druckmann
With a big bloater.
[17:22]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, it's a really hard encounter. So they're bonded by a certain trust because of gameplay.
[17:28]
Troy Baker
He cheers her on.
[17:30]
Neil Druckmann
In the gameplay, you save each other's lives. And that's how we build trust here. We have to build trust through a conversation.
[17:35]
Craig Mazin
Yes. Because we felt while we could do that, the plot implications of a lot of Infected running around out there, that can just get you at any moment, it would permeate throughout the episode. And we wanted it to function a different way. So it was about the conversation. And he's very crafty about letting her make her jokes, not pushing things, not taking things personally, being kind.
[18:03]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, she's insulting him quite a bit. And he Just. He rolls.
[18:06]
Troy Baker
Ah, well, you got me there. Yeah.
[18:07]
Craig Mazin
And then there's that moment where she's like. But seriously. And that's when he knows he has her because she's interested.
[18:15]
Scott Shephard
So I sent four of our people to a nearby town to scavenge what they could, and only three of them came back. And the one that didn't was a father. He had a daughter just like you. And her dad was taken from her. Turns out he was murdered by this crazy man. And get this. That crazy man was traveling with a little girl. You see, everything happens for a reason.
[18:52]
Craig Mazin
What I love is that Bella, the way Bella played, it was. It takes her, like, three seconds too long to realize. To realize. Because she's into the story. She's suckered in by him completely. And what I love about that is that's the first time I think we've seen it happen. No one's been able to fool her. No one's been able to sucker her. She's always one step ahead of everybody.
[19:17]
Troy Baker
As soon as she gets the penicillin from them, she runs back to give it to Joel.
[19:23]
Neil Druckmann
There's a lot of payoffs that would not work if the rest of the season didn't work as well as it did. And one of these moments that. One of my favorite moments from the game is Ellie, is she got this penicillin shot of penicillin, and she doesn't know how to. She just injects it where she thinks it might go. She's not sure if it's gonna work or not. And then she lies down next to Joel and leans into him. And I just. Again, I'm watching this, and I'm seeing Ellie and Joel, not like Bella and Pedro. But I love, again, that we wake up the next day and she does another injection. She's like. She doesn't know how much to give, where to do it, whether it's gonna work or not. And again, there's a little bit of this blind faith that this is all gonna work out.
[20:06]
Troy Baker
And there's nothing more helpless than having the solution and having no idea how to use it.
[20:10]
Craig Mazin
It's something I remembered feeling in the game. And it was, at the time, shocking when in the last of us, the game, you wake up, so to speak, as Ellie, you become Ellie. The screen goes black, and now you're playing as Ellie. It was shocking. And playing as Ely and not knowing if it was gonna be okay, if Joel was gonna live was really scary.
[20:36]
Troy Baker
Let's talk about the slap and the hand. So we see this exchange with Josiah and Joyce. And she says, what is it? And he looks at her and goes, venison.
[20:47]
Craig Mazin
No, it isn't.
[20:49]
Troy Baker
So that's a question. This is where we also have the scene that contrasts with earlier. Whereas Hannah interrupts, and instead of crying, she's now saying she's crying out for the vengeance of her father. Murder. David slaps her.
[21:02]
Scott Shephard
I know you think you don't have a father anymore, but the truth is, Hannah, you will always have a father. And you will show him respect when he's speaking.
[21:14]
Craig Mazin
This is a big deal. Like, we talked about this a lot when we expanded this out. We thought that it was important to humanize David, humanize the world around him, make us feel, at least when he was initially with Elie in that sawmill, that he's a good guy. You know what? He's forgiven her, which is a very Christian thing to do. In fact, he's given her medicine so that she can save Joel.
[21:43]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, he's been honest with her.
[21:44]
Craig Mazin
He has been honest with her the entire time. And we need to make it clear that that isn't the complete truth. But we don't want to go all the way into showing who he fully is yet. And this is the product of that. It was important for us to show the audience that he is not the nicest guy in the world. He says to Hannah after he hits her, I know you think you don't have a father anymore, but you will always have a father. It's about the most patriarchal thing you can possibly say. And what does Father do? Father comforts you, Father teaches you, and then father hits you every night.
[22:29]
Neil Druckmann
But it's out of love.
[22:29]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, but that's the thing in his mind that is love. Because he doesn't understand what love is.
[22:37]
Neil Druckmann
I mean, there's a lot of dark in this episode, but to me, this moment is so dark of, like, he hits this girl, and then he does this, like, really gentle motion to her mom, sit back down. Yep, sit back down. I got this.
[22:48]
Craig Mazin
So controlling, right?
[22:50]
Neil Druckmann
And again, the control he has where, like, the mom then sits back down.
[22:54]
Craig Mazin
Sits back down.
[22:54]
Troy Baker
To me, the look is, keep her in line. Keep yourself in line, because you remember what happens if you don't.
[23:01]
Craig Mazin
He also. He then reaches his hand down to Hannah, but he doesn't take her hand. He just reaches down and makes her take his hand. And that's about the most David thing you can do. That's this other level of, you see, you wanted to.
[23:19]
Neil Druckmann
That is like the DNA of abusive relationships.
[23:22]
Craig Mazin
It is like, this guy is the model of a gaslighter, a manipulator, and an abuser.
[23:31]
Troy Baker
To somewhat stay chronological, there's this great shot where we're now hunting Ellie.
[23:38]
Craig Mazin
And what's interesting is your instinct, James's instinct, and Timothy and Marco's and Josiah's, is to kill this little girl for what she did because she and whoever that guy is killed their friend Alec. And David won't let you.
[23:54]
Troy Baker
I shot the horse to stop her. I just want the girl gone. I just. Cause she. I feel the fact that she could easily usurp my position. In the same way that David intuits that he has found an equal. I think there's something inside of James that senses that from this girl as well. He looks at her differently.
[24:10]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. Yeah. James is not his equal. And that's what's sort of tragic, is that it's the reason. The first real conversation that David has with James is about David challenging James. Faith. And James says, no, I still believe. And you would think, okay, this is like, because I need you with me. And he's like, we're going hunting. You know, this is what bad people do. They make you crave their approval. And then when they give you the approval, it makes you feel things that you probably shouldn't be feeling. That's how they manipulate you, and that's how David manipulates James. But the whole time, David doesn't really love James. David has contempt for James. David has contempt for practically every single person in that church of his.
[25:00]
Troy Baker
I would even think that from my perspective, contempt was just a little bit too much thumb on the scale of an investment. It was disposable. You serve a purpose for me right now. So then after David and James kidnap Ellie, she wakes up in this cage and David is there trying to prove he's a good guy.
[25:24]
Scott Shephard
Did you hear me say the others want to kill you? Yeah, but I stopped them. Fuck you. Why don't we just start with your name? Iche. Hey, listen to me. You can't survive on your own. No one can. But I can help you. Let me protect you.
[25:45]
Craig Mazin
I'm not on my own.
[25:49]
Scott Shephard
Right. Your friend. And how is he?
[25:56]
Craig Mazin
What's happening? There is again David doing this thing of slowly luring her, and Ellie doing her best to put on a brave face. She is concussed. She is trapped in a cage. She is unarmed. Joel is out there dying somewhere. This guy's saying, hey, I'm keeping you alive. And she's telling him to eat shit, which is, you know what's your name? Eat shit. There's no more Ellie thing to do than that.
[26:30]
Neil Druckmann
By the way, the what's your name? I think it goes back to the conversation we just had of like, you're in this room where everybody's eating human meat and only some people know because there's a secret. And trust only goes so far. And so much of this back and forth, this chess game that they're playing is about trust. And the question he keeps asking her, what's your name? What's your name? What's your name? And she will. She knows this is what she has over him, and she's saving it for.
[26:55]
Craig Mazin
Like, this very specific moment.
[26:57]
Troy Baker
Let's talk about Joel. There's some really cool things that, again, we get to enrich the game. There's a physicality that throughout every episode, Pedro is brought to this, and this is a shining example of that. We have the fight.
[27:09]
Neil Druckmann
That fight is so cool.
[27:11]
Craig Mazin
It's like, I love that fight.
[27:12]
Neil Druckmann
I was before watching it last night with Helly Gross, co wrote the Second Game, and she starts laughing, and I'm like, what are you laughing at? She's like, just. Joel at 10% is better than two of these guys at 100%.
[27:27]
Troy Baker
But the only reason this, to me is true, what makes it so good, is he fights smart, which is, I have one shot at this and I got to get this knife in his neck. If I can get the knife in his neck, it's over.
[27:40]
Craig Mazin
And it's also. He is fighting for Ellie. Yes. If it were just him, I think he would just be like, oh, for fuck's sake, just do it. Just kill me already. I'm useless. I'm broken. I'm lying on this mattress and I'm dying. But the thought that Ellie might still be alive, that Ellie might need him, that is what gets him off the mattress. That's. Well, that and the penicillin, which is derived from a fungus, which I love, that's what gets him going. And Ollie really stressed that this fight should have a sad desperation to it that Joel is hanging. He stabs this guy and then hangs onto him because he doesn't have the strength to stand anymore. And then they both fall to the ground, and it is ugly.
[28:25]
Neil Druckmann
And by the way, that guy has the coolest death. Oh, he wears the look on his face.
[28:31]
Craig Mazin
He did a great job, and it is horrible.
[28:34]
Troy Baker
We should mention that the Ali that we've been talking about is the director of this episode, Ali Abbasi.
[28:40]
Craig Mazin
And they. Ali is not, as you know, he's not a director that just likes to do one or two takes. And that was, I think those guys had to try and kill each other about a hundred times that day. And the level of commitment from both of them is extraordinary. And that grounded level of violence is what we're talking about. We've been talking about it all along. We want you to feel it, we want you to feel it as much as possible and we want you to even wonder, even if it's subconsciously, even if it's for a fleeting second, who loved this man? Who did he love? How did he get here? Is this what he deserves?
[29:18]
Troy Baker
Names are important. There's constantly names being used. And we saw that with Brian, we saw that with Alec. We've seen this use of like, these are real people. Josiah, Timothy, Marco, these are people, they're people.
[29:30]
Craig Mazin
And Josiah and Timothy and Marco and James are all following someone who is telling them to do these things.
[29:41]
Troy Baker
After this fight that Joel has, we are back now with Ellie in a cell and David and Ellie have a very tough talk.
[29:52]
Craig Mazin
That's the scene where we get to this somewhat more developed truth about David and why he likes her so much, which is not merely this sexual, misplaced sexual desire in a 14 year old girl, but this recognition that he's found a kindred spirit. And that is a very disturbing thing because on the one hand, he hasn't. Elie is a far more decent person than him, no question. But on the other hand, he does put his finger on something. Two things. One, he talks about how cordyceps is the thing that set him free. That he looked at what cordyceps did, which is to be fruitful and to multiply and to protect its own through.
[30:49]
Neil Druckmann
Violence if it must, which is often organized religion.
[30:54]
Craig Mazin
And that is his definition of love. He says to secure a future, that line to secure future is part of a white supremacist anthem. To secure a future for our white children, or whatever it is. It's this. We've talked a lot about these two kinds of loves. And this xenophobic, protective, defensive, insular, tribalistic love. David is taken to its furthest extreme. And so of course he admires cordyceps because that's what cordyceps does. But he says to Ellie, you have a violent heart. I should know. I've always had a violent heart. Now he's right and he's wrong. She does have a violent heart. In fact, everything he says about her seems to come to pass, including, if I put this knife in your hand, you'd stab me. With it. Well, he gets more than that. She does have a violent heart, but she also has a beautiful heart. Ellie has both kinds of love within her. David only has one, and it is dark and is possessive.
[31:54]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, they both have these violent tendencies. But whereas David's a narcissist.
[32:00]
Craig Mazin
Yes.
[32:00]
Neil Druckmann
Ellie's overflowing with empathy.
[32:03]
Troy Baker
What do you think David's plan was?
[32:07]
Craig Mazin
I think he wanted her to recognize that. That he was her way to safety now that her other father figure was presumably dead or dying. He did not expect Joel to come back. And purposefully, Joel doesn't save the day. I think he wanted her to begrudgingly begin to trust him and then she would become his wife.
[32:36]
Neil Druckmann
He wanted her to fall in love with him, to look up to him and fall in love with him and have someone like her worship him.
[32:42]
Troy Baker
Do you think that he would have stayed in Silverlake, or do you think he would have left?
[32:46]
Craig Mazin
I think that he really did believe that she would help him. I think he was being honest when he said, look at us. Look at what's happened. I could use the help. God knows I could use the help. He needs a partner. He doesn't have one.
[32:59]
Neil Druckmann
He feels like he's smarter than everybody else, and that's why he believes he can't have a conversation on his level with anybody else. And then here's Ellie where that could be that person.
[33:11]
Craig Mazin
Yeah. There's a moment in the game that we replicate identically, because we have to, because it's brilliant, where David finally reveals the truth of his attraction to her.
[33:23]
Scott Shephard
Think of what we could do together. As strong as we are, we'd make this place perfect. We'd grow spread out, and we'd do whatever we needed for our people.
[33:37]
Craig Mazin
People. And she plays along.
[33:40]
Scott Shephard
Imagine the life we could build.
[33:46]
Neil Druckmann
It's that, oh, by the way, that O is again. It's like I thought I was hearing Ashley Johnson moment.
[33:53]
Craig Mazin
And that's not a moment where we sat Bella down and said, now watch this now. It was the opposite, in fact. I remember on that day, Bella and Ali were like, you know, they're blocking and stuff, and I'm over here probably, you know, working on another episode, writing, you know, in the corner on my laptop. And they're like, hey, can you come over here for a second? What exactly does. Because neither one of them had really studied that scene. I was like, oh, this is interesting. Let me explain exactly what's going on here. And I do. I remember laughing because I sort of. This is what's going on. You're saying this because you want him to think that you are getting it and that you're into it. And you're only doing that because you've made the calculation that you'll be able to break his finger and grab the keys and get out of here.
[34:42]
Scott Shephard
Let's see what I go tell the others now.
[34:46]
Craig Mazin
Ellie.
[34:49]
Scott Shephard
What?
[34:50]
Neil Druckmann
Tell them that Ellie is a little girl who broke her fucking sinker.
[34:56]
Craig Mazin
When David smashes her face against these, the bars of the cell, she is hurt, she is bleeding from her face. And when she yells at him, tell.
[35:06]
Neil Druckmann
Him she's still defiant. Yeah, Give him the satisfaction.
[35:09]
Craig Mazin
Broke your fucking finger. And this is where I used to call Bella my little savage, because she can do these things where it's terrifying, where she's like an animal.
[35:18]
Troy Baker
And that's when she finally gives her name.
[35:20]
Craig Mazin
Yes. Yeah.
[35:22]
Troy Baker
That moment, both in the game and in the show, rapidly accelerates the situation. David and James go back into the room with a cleaver. And Ellie, in the scramble, manages to bite David. And right before they're able to kill her, she thinks of a way out.
[35:41]
Neil Druckmann
I'm infected. I'm infected.
[35:46]
Scott Shephard
And now so are you.
[35:49]
Neil Druckmann
Which, by the way, right, if you think about that scene, they could have gone in there and shot her. But that's not satisfying for David. David wants to win. He has to, like, kill her slowly. And he wants her to know that he's in control. The thing I've always loved about the sequence is that it's a chess game between these two characters of who has control. And Ellie has an ace up her sleeve, right?
[36:11]
Troy Baker
And of course, David doesn't know that, but he has revealed that he has a violent heart. And here is where he is going to show her just how violent that it is.
[36:18]
Craig Mazin
This is very close to how it functioned in the game because it was one of those moments that was so visceral in every sense of the word. And Ellie interrupts with the final card she has to play, which. And I remember when I was playing the game, I had no idea, how the hell is she gonna get out of this? It's seemingly impossible. And it didn't occur to me, I had forgotten when I played that she could do this, that she could say this. It struck me as so smart. And it works the same way here. The dialogue is the same. Even how she kills James is the same.
[36:56]
Troy Baker
But she's poked around violence before, but she's never. This act of violence has never happened with her. And she does it almost instinctually.
[37:07]
Craig Mazin
Well, she, by this point, in the story has committed acts of violence and she herself has been violenced. And right now she's in full fight or flight, live or die. She has been reduced by this man to being an animal.
[37:27]
Neil Druckmann
Yeah, she's not even processing what's happening right now.
[37:30]
Craig Mazin
She uses the last of her intellect to buy herself some time. And then she goes into absolute survival mode. And in survival mode, your life means nothing. His life means nothing. The only lives she cares about are her own and Joel's.
[37:47]
Troy Baker
Ellie is trying to escape. She accidentally sets the building on fire. And that is when we have this.
[37:54]
Craig Mazin
Terrifying moment with David, when Ellie kills David. We are doing what was there in the game.
[38:03]
Neil Druckmann
There's something about this version, I will say, that's harder to watch and is more disturbing.
[38:08]
Craig Mazin
It is. And part of it is that there's that one less thing of separation between you and reality because it's not animated, it's a person because there is blood flying everywhere, including hitting the lens. And then it's also just telling Bella, you have no restraints, you have no leash, you have no nothing. Just do what needs to be done. And when she kills him, it's so clear that he's beyond dead after the fifth or sixth blow. And she keeps going and then she slows down and then she starts up again. And it's that moment where you realize that this just everything pouring out of her. And when she finally stops and she looks off, it's. I don't know how you could portray trauma better, more convincingly, more accurately than what is on her face in that moment and what is in her eyes. It is so upsetting.
[39:13]
Troy Baker
There is one moment that as close to the game as it is, is very different. Even though it's a very small thing how we get out of that moment. Because in the game, she enacts her revenge on David with extreme prejudice. Joel takes her from that and tries to pull her away from that violence. In this, nothing is there to stop Ellie from that scene. And she meets up with Joel outside and he says, it's me, it's me. Why the difference?
[39:45]
Neil Druckmann
I think our conversation, like, we didn't want it to happen with the fire around. Like, there's the danger of the fire. It just felt a little different in live action than it did in the game.
[39:53]
Craig Mazin
Yeah, there was a question of, like, how does Joel get inside if the keys are on David? It was like a little bit of a logic thing. And then it was a little bit of like, wanting our Ellie to have completed it to the point where she could literally walk away on her own.
[40:08]
Neil Druckmann
But it was important when the sequence was constructed in the game. And I think it's the same for the show, which is, like, we want the audience or the player to think Joel is going to save Ellie, because that's what this character traditionally does. And it was important that. No, no, no. Ellie saves herself. Yes, except that he does save her, but now he has to do a very different thing that a parent does, which is he saves her emotionally.
[40:32]
Craig Mazin
It's okay. It's okay.
[40:37]
Scott Shephard
It's okay, Baby girl. Look at you.
[40:44]
Neil Druckmann
Before she loses her sanity, he's there to bring her back now. She will never be the same after this, and we'll see the consequences of that, like, in the next episode. The whole scene was constructed when we made the game. And this is one of those sequences that made me want to make this game, that the whole thing was kind of a study of a more stereotypical hero you would have in a person like Joel. And then there is one moment in time towards the end of the story where he would get so incapacitated. This is how it was pitched, that the roles would flip, and then you would play as this girl protecting this man. To me, like, almost the entire story hinges on this sequence. And I remember when we were making the game, I was so nervous about whether this was gonna work or not, because I'm like, if this doesn't work, then that means the whole story's not working. And then when I finally kind of played that sequence, I'm like, you know, it's one of the most emotional parts of the story where, like, Joel comes and embraces her and calls her baby girl, and you're like, oh, my God. Like, look how much these two characters have been through. And I was so nervous whether this would hit as hard on the show, and I wanted it to be hit as hard on the show as it did in the game. When I watched this finally, like, I watched, like, two episodes before, so I could go into this with full context. I'm watching it, and it's different. She stumbles on into the snow, and just a contrast of, like, the blood on her skin against the white snow. And Bella does such an incredible job of, like, this disembodied performance where she's not quite there. And then Pedro grabs her. And the way he looks at her, there's a sadness of, like, I couldn't protect you from this again. Another failure to, like, another notch of failure. And I'm bawling, I'm crying. Not just, like, tears in my eyes. I'm like, it's waterworks. And I was like, I pick up my phone, I just text Craig this one sentence. We did it. Yeah. And it could only work again if all. Everything that preceded it was working.
[42:47]
Craig Mazin
I continue to marvel at both of them when Joel finally finds her and she finally realizes it's him. That, to me, is why I cry every time, because I know what just happened. And the same person that obliterated a man's face with a cleaver is now a little girl who is just needs her father's affection, clinging to her father, who is calling her baby girl and putting his coat around her and leaning her off to safety. It's like, it's a testament again to the story that Neil created and the way that you and Ashley perform those scenes. All of that is the text that we pull from all of it. And that's why I've loved this job. I love this job. As crazy as this job was, as long and exhausting as it was, I love it. And I want to just keep doing it because of moments like that. Uh, it's so satisfying to know that we've put something like that out there, even though it's so upsetting, it's also so beautiful. And my hat's off to everybody that worked on that episode. Everyone. But especially you two ding dongs for all you've done.
[44:10]
Troy Baker
We're not done yet. We have one more to go and that's where we'll pick it up next week. Craig, thanks a million, man, for being here.
[44:18]
Craig Mazin
Thanks, Troy.
[44:19]
Troy Baker
And of course, the same to you, Neil.
[44:21]
Neil Druckmann
Goodbye.
[44:27]
Troy Baker
This has been the official the Last of Us podcast from hbo. Again, I'm Troy Baker, joined by Craig Mason and Neil Druckmann. You can stream new episodes of the HBO original series the Last of Us Sundays on HBO Max. The podcast episodes are available after episodes of the Last of Us air on hbo. You can find this show wherever you listen to of podcasts like and follow HBO's the Last of Us on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. And as always, when you're lost in the darkness, look for the light.
[44:53]
Neil Druckmann
This is the official companion podcast for.
[44:56]
Craig Mazin
HBO's the Last of Us, hosted by Troy Baker. Our producers are Elliot Adler, Bria Mariette and Noah Camuso.
[45:03]
Neil Druckmann
Darby Maloney is our editor. The show is mixed by Hannis Brown.
[45:07]
Craig Mazin
Our executive producers are Gabrielle Luna Lewis and Bari Finkel. Production music is courtesy of HBO and you can watch episodes of the Last of us on HBO Max.
[45:22]
Neil Druckmann
@ Rocket. We believe everyone deserves their shot at the American Dream. So if you're feeling locked out of home ownership, we're here to give you back the keys. We're opening doors, breaking down walls, and doing everything we can to turn renters into owners. And we're not going to stop until we help everyone home. To find out more, visit rocket.com Rocket Own the Dream.

Season 1, Episode 8 - "When We Are In Need"

Season 1, Episode 8 - "When We Are In Need"

Detailed Summary of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast - Season 1, Episode 8: "When We Are In Need"

Detailed Summary of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast - Season 1, Episode 8: "When We Are In Need"