HBR IdeaCast: Brené Brown on Being a Steady Leader in Tumultuous Times

Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Adi Ignatius (A), Alison Beard (C)
Guest: Brené Brown (B), researcher and author of “Strong: The Lessons of Daring, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit”

Overview

In this engaging episode, host Adi Ignatius sits down with renowned researcher and author Brené Brown, known for her work on vulnerability and courage in leadership. The discussion focuses on what it takes to be a steady, effective leader in a period defined by instability, uncertainty, and shifting cultural expectations. Drawing on research, sports metaphors, and personal anecdotes, Brown lays out actionable advice for leaders who want to act with purpose, authenticity, and resilience—even as the ground beneath them keeps shifting.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Leadership in Turbulent Times ([03:00])

• Instability and unpredictability as context:
  Brown describes the current landscape as one of "massive instability and unpredictability," where even short-range forecasting has become unreliable.

  “Good leadership right now is about settling the ball… instead of jumping up and catching the ball… dropping the ball to the ground, putting their foot on the ball to maintain possession, looking down the pitch, thinking strategically…” — Brené Brown [03:00]

• Bias toward action vs. Systems thinking ([04:38]):
  Adi and Brown discuss the tension between being decisive in uncertainty (action bias) versus slowing down for systems thinking and holistic decision-making.

2. The Power and Perils of Systems Thinking ([05:17])

• Permeable boundaries:
  Brown underscores the importance of systems theory in organizational leadership—open boundaries allow feedback and recalibration; closed systems become “self-referencing,” blind to external input, and risk failure (e.g., rushed AI strategies without proper feedback loops).

• Productive urgency:
  Brown introduces nuance:

  “Urgency, but productive urgency. Yes, risk taking, but strategic risk taking. Unproductive urgency is always action over impact.” — Brené Brown [07:13]

3. Authenticity and Values in Politicized Contexts ([07:54])

• “Value that can be abandoned…is not really a core value”:
  Brown argues that genuine values remain steady even amidst political shifts.

  “A value that's abandoned based on who's in the White House is not really a core value… That is a very short-term game in a long-term world.” — Brené Brown [08:37]

• Risk of performative leadership:
  Leaders who don’t express or stand by core values can expect consumer backlash.

4. The “Strong Ground” Metaphor ([10:15])

• Origin in physical resilience:
  Brown recounts a training moment when told to “find your ground,” which evolved into a mantra for leadership—connecting to core values for both stability and agility.

• What is ‘strong ground’?:

  "Strong ground became my mantra—not just in the gym, but also before a hard meeting, before coaching with a CEO… Find your athletic stance. Get grounded down in your values, not just for stability, but also for agility. Right now, given the velocity, this pace of change, we need to find our ground…" — Brené Brown [11:13]

• ‘Tush Push’ and team force:
  Brown equates organizational power to a scrum in rugby, where individuals root themselves in values to generate collective momentum.

5. Pocket Presence: Beyond Executive Presence ([15:01])

• From executive presence to ‘pocket presence’:
  Brown critiques ‘executive presence’ as vague and biased and advances ‘pocket presence’—a learnable competency for leaders, borrowed from football quarterbacks.

• Three key elements of pocket presence ([17:01]):

  • Anticipatory Thinking: Reading where the organization/team needs to be, not just where it is.
  • Temporal Awareness: Knowing how much time you really have and synchronizing urgency.
  • Situational Awareness: Understanding the ecosystem (organization, market, geopolitics) as context for every decision.

• Notable quote:

  “Pocket presence is very observable and measurable and teachable…it’s about anticipatory thinking, temporal awareness, and situational awareness.” — Brené Brown [16:20]

6. Developing Pattern Recognition and Grounded Confidence ([18:25])

• Pattern recognition comes from open learning:
  Brown notes that while athletes can “watch tape,” executives build intuition by openly discussing setbacks, embedding lessons, and thus sharpening pattern recognition.

• Grounded Confidence over Armor ([19:15]):
  Through research on 150 transformational leaders, Brown found that fear is not the barrier to courageous leadership—armor is.

  “If you’re creating a list of courageous leaders and you're defining that as people who don’t feel fear, don't put me on your list. I'm afraid every day.” — (Transformational leader, cited by Brown) [20:04]
  Leaders replace defensive "armor" with grounded confidence—self-awareness and openness to learning.

7. Peeling Off the Armor ([23:12])

• Recognizing and shedding the ‘armor’:
  Brown’s training with 150,000 leaders shows progress starts with recognizing one’s own protective behaviors (like intensity, micromanagement, perfectionism) when afraid.

• Practical advice:
  Ask trusted people what behaviors you display when in fear; self-awareness is prerequisite to change.

8. Why Is Great Leadership Still So Hard? ([25:36])

• Reason: Most Difficult Work Is Inward:

  “Who we are is how we lead…if you don’t have a significant level of self-awareness, emotional granularity, emotional awareness, systems thinking, I think it’s very, very tough to lead. I think we'd rather do pretty much anything other than figure out how we’re getting in our own way…If you want something long-term and meaningful, it's gotta be intrinsic and it’s gotta be about self-awareness. And I think that’s hard.” — Brené Brown [26:15]

9. Practical Steps for Leaders Now ([27:32])

• Most common leadership complaint:
  “I don’t have time to think about it”—Brown calls this dangerous.

• First step:

  “Figure out what it takes to create time where none exists. Figure out how to take a breath and challenge your own thinking… there's no self-reflection, no smart strategy, no AI approach, no nothing without grounded thinking. So take a deep breath and slow things down…” — Brené Brown [27:47]

• A candid assessment:

  “I don’t think people are okay…collectively we are dysregulated, distrustful and disconnected…The first place we need to start regulating, trusting and reconnecting is ourself to something bigger than us that provides stability and agility at the same time.” — Brené Brown [27:47, 29:36]

• Leadership demonstration:
  Brown describes a team-building exercise with athletes: grounding themselves in their values dramatically increased their resilience and stability under pressure ([29:36]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A value that’s abandoned based on administration is not really a core value…That is a very short-term game in a long-term world.” — B (Brené Brown) [08:37]
• "Unproductive urgency is always action over impact." — B [07:13]
• “Pocket presence is very observable and measurable and teachable…It’s about anticipatory thinking, temporal awareness, and situational awareness.” — B [16:20]
• “If you’re creating a list of courageous leaders and you're defining that as people who don’t feel fear, don't put me on your list. I'm afraid every day.” — Cited leader, recalled by B [20:04]
• "Who we are is how we lead." — B [26:15]
• “I don’t think people are okay, Adi. I don’t think we're okay right now. Collectively we are dysregulated, distrustful and disconnected.” — B [27:47]
• “The first place we need to start regulating, trusting and reconnecting is ourself to something bigger than us that provides stability and agility at the same time.” — B [29:36]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:00] Brown on instability and the “settling the ball” sports metaphor
• [05:17] Systems thinking, permeable boundaries, and AI project pitfalls
• [07:13] Productive urgency vs. action for its own sake
• [08:37] Standing by core values in political times
• [10:25] Origin story of “strong ground” and the leadership metaphor
• [15:01] The move from 'executive' to 'pocket' presence
• [17:01] Breakdown of anticipatory, temporal, and situational awareness
• [19:15] How to develop pattern recognition—learning from mistakes
• [20:04] What is grounded confidence and overcoming armor
• [23:12] Steps to identify and dismantle your personal "armor"
• [26:15] Why leadership is so hard and the necessity of self-awareness
• [27:47] Practical advice: create time to think and reflect, even in chaos
• [29:36] Reconnecting to core values for personal and organizational resilience

Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, research-driven, and peppered with memorable metaphors from the sports world. Brown’s tone is practical and encouraging, but never sugarcoats the challenge and self-work required of truly steady leadership.
Actionable takeaway:
Slow down, do the inner work, build grounded confidence, and lead from deep values—especially when everything around you is in flux. As Brown says, “take a breath, settle the ball, and find your ground.”