B (5:46)

You know, I feel like for all of my adult life, you know, I've been told the deficit is a problem, debt is a problem. Right now I we have 38 trillion sort of national debt, way over 100% of GDP. At what point you know, does debt. I've been telling people debt matters and you know, the bond market seemed to live with it. People still are buying American debt, you know, at what point does this debt matter?

C (6:09)

The way it works is that the credit system is very much like the circulatory system that brings credit throughout the system, and if it goes to those who use it and produces an income to service the debt, then it's a very, very, very healthy system. But what are the mechanics that create a limitation to debt? What happens is like that circulatory system, credit, which enables spending, creates debt and debt has to be serviced. And when you raise debt service payments or debts relative to income, it's true for the whole economy, it's true for the government, it's true for every part that that squeezes out debt service payments start to squeeze out spending. So in other words, you have income, then you have debt service payments, and what's left over is what you can spend on other things. And when that squeezing out happens, it's like plaque in the circulatory system that then creates a problem. The second part of that is the debtor, creditor idea of one man's debts are another man's assets, so they have to be attractive assets. And when they hold too much debt and that you're then selling a lot of debt, the demand for that debt may not be adequate relative to the supply, which causes central banks to do what companies and individuals can't do, which is print money and buy that debt, which devalues it. So it's very much like me saying, when you say I don't want to get into too much debt, it's like telling a young person, don't eat too much cholesterol, don't smoke, don't do this, because your health is going to deteriorate. Your financial health will deteriorate. When you're asking when the heart attack will come, It'll come when those two things converge. It'll come when they're squeezing out those payments. Like, none of these countries have enough money. Look at the uk, look at France. They can't tax more, they can't go on deeper deficits, and they can't cut spending. That's the nature of the dynamic of when you're approaching the stage of the heart attack.

B (8:20)

So given the research you've done into these historic cycles, what's the biggest risk out there? Now we look back at 2008 and say, okay, subprime mortgages, maybe people saw that, maybe they didn't. Is the biggest risk what you're talking about now, these levels of national debt and debt throughout the system? Or is there something else that you're concerned about? Again, maybe from this historic cyclical perspective.

C (8:46)

I'm going to first answer it in the bigger sense. It's how we deal with each other, to deal with all of these issues. But I'm going to narrow it down to your debt question. There's a bubble and how a bubble gets burst. We have this debt dynamic, which means that either interest rates have to go up if there's not enough demand relative to the supply, and that curtails economic activity and then causes a problem. That's what causes bubbles to pop in the traditional sense. Or then they come in there and they have to print money and buy those bonds, which creates a monetary inflation. And that dynamic naturally leads itself to a stagflationary kind of environment. We have to understand how bubbles occur, how does stocks go up a lot? And why did the 20s, for example, lead to the 30s? And that has to do with the difference between what wealth and money is, what wealth is. It's easy to create wealth and we're creating wealth all over the place, but it's not money wealth. For example, if I issue, I sell, I'm creating a unicorn and I say I'm going to raise $50 million for a billion dollar valuation the world. And everybody says then you're a billionaire and that you've created a billion dollars worth of wealth. And so wealth can go up a lot, but wealth is not worth anything unless you sell it for money in order to spend. And so when wealth rises relative to money a lot, and there's a need to be able to convert that wealth into money, then that causes assets to be sold and so on all through history. The issue is when there are too many claims on money and there's not enough money, there's a dynamic that either leads to defaults or the production of more money to prevent the defaults.

B (10:41)

You know, another topic that seems critical and yet doesn't seem to be taken seriously, you know, at certain policy levels. Anyway, you've been talking about this for years. It doesn't feel like there's exactly a bandwagon, you know, of people who want to solve the inequality problem, at least in the U.S. you know, can these levels of inequality be sustained?

C (11:03)

No, they can't be sustained. This is, for me, like watching the movie for the umpteenth time. You know, okay, it's the nature of how the machine works. One of the great things about capitalism is this inventiveness can come along and then you raise living standards and so on, but it creates big differences in wealth that then become perpetual because then Those who earn wealth can then have their kids, have better educations and so on. And so if you take the Industrial Revolution, Industrial Revolution, that leads to the Gilded Age, that then leads to robber barons and the panic of 1907. You see this pattern again. So what we have are irreconcilable differences between the left and the right. So irreconcilable that the system is losing its power. The belief in democracy is being. You know, they won't say, I'm going to settle this by having a vote and we're going to compromise and so on. No, it increasingly becomes a win at all cost type of dynamic. You see the populism that's operating now and you see greater polarity, and that typically leads to a conflict in the 30s. The period that we're going through in many cases last time around was quite like the 30s. Four democracies chose to become autocracies. So which sides win out? That's the dynamic that we're in. If I look at societies over time and what produces success, it's very simple. First, educate your children well so that they're well, they're capable of working and being productive, and also understand civility. And then come out to a society in which people worked well together, following rules and guidance, with good leadership to be able to be productive together so that most people prosperity. And number three, don't get into a war, don't get into a civil war, an internal war that disrupts all that, or an external war. If you could do those things well, you'll have a successful society. So who has the intelligence and the capability to make the country good for most people is the question. And whose vision is that? And there's very, very big differences in vision. There is not a path that I can see to saying we're going to bring all those sides together, we're going to follow the rules and we're going to make the important changes that will bring us into balance to create productivity and prosperity for most people.

B (13:40)

So you mentioned technology as one of the key forces and the cycles of technology. I'm interested in your take on AI. We talk about AI endlessly, as you can imagine. I don't know if it's overhyped, I don't know if it's underhyped. I'm interested in to what extent you think it's going to reshape our very economy. And I'm also interested in how you use it if you do.

C (14:03)

I founded Bridgewater 50 years ago. This is the 50th year, I'd say starting 40 years ago, I started to get in the habit, which I'd recommend everybody do, is when I was making decisions, I would think, what are the criteria that I'm using to make those decisions? And I would write them down and were they what I would call my principles for making decisions? And that helped me understand how things work mechanistically, what are the cause, effect, relationships, and what are those principles? And then I computerize them. So when I'm dealing with the markets or I'm dealing with almost all decision making, it was computerized. And then AI has different versions. The word AI began in 1956. I used expert systems that would make the computer make decisions, as I would make decisions, like making a computerized chess game. And it would make decisions and I would make decisions when faced with the same thing. And I'd compare those two decisions and they should be aligned. And if they're not aligned, I'll reconcile the differences and we'd both get better. So I did that for a very long time. And now we have the more with ChatGPT and all that's happening elevated that and the capacity to do that. So I've experienced it, I understand it, I think it's phenomenal. But when I say it, it's how you work with it. It has to be a partner. It isn't something that you just follow or just even a source of information. When it works, it is like working as a good partner. It can never be your substitute for thinking, for understanding cause, effect, relationships. The computer doesn't have values, it doesn't have inspiration in the same way. It doesn't have emotions, it doesn't have those things that are so like, what are you going after in life? Who do you love? And all of those things. So it has to operate as a partner. But yes, I'm very excited. I think through the evolutionary process, it'll be very important. All technologies have pros and cons to it. So it's going to create great power. That power can be used for harm or for good. It will be the main war issue. When we're thinking about could there be a war with China or Russia or another entity, what kind of technologies can it be used? So, like nuclear, can it be used well, or is it going to be used harmfully? Secondly, it doesn't get us around our question and in fact exacerbates our question of the wealth inequality and that dynamic. You can see it happening if you're in the top 1% or 10%. Wow, you own stocks, and it comes down to a very limited number of stocks and a very limited part of that economy. And it's going through the roof. And it'll also be replacing jobs. How do we deal with that? That's going to be a big question. And then number three question is, who's in control? Will that. And when we approach AGI, is that going to mean that it can be in control and we're no longer in control? These are questions that lie ahead.

B (17:22)

So I want to talk about global trade and geopolitics. This current US Administration is very different from administrators in the past. I mean, we've really broken from a lot of the Cold War certainties. And I, you know, is the, the era the sort of Pax Americana global trade era? Is that over just given tariffs, trade wars where we are now? Or is this possibly just a kind of a bump in something that we'll see more continuous with post World War II era as we, you know, move on to different leadership?

C (17:52)

I think that it's important to understand that all monetary orders have, well, through history, broken down, all domestic political orders have broken down. Some last longer than others. You know, we had a civil war at one point and we got through it. Most countries, they last 50 or 80 years maybe, and then they break down. And most international geopolitical orders break down. So that's the norm. People don't sort of realize that. And it's like health. You can go down a list of indicators. Where is your education level relative to your competition? Where is your gdp? What are these things? I put together and I made it public, what I call countries power indexes. It measures economic power, military power, all these different powers. And so you could look at it like you could look at a human being's various characteristics. What is your stress level, you know, what is your cholesterol? And all looking like that. It is a reality that the relative position of the United States is no longer the same in terms of its dominance, whatever the measures I can use. And it is the reality that we have this debt issue and that we have this internal conflict issue. But it's like a person who has cholesterol and has these conditions that you have to then get over that. That's very, very difficult to do. And particularly in a world where the other powers have now become very strong themselves, you know, looking at history, it would be difficult. We have unique characteristics. We're a country of people have come. The best and the brightest have come all over, and we've created a system of a meritocracy that can get the best talent to go to the best schools and you can educate your people well and you can do all of those things and rule of law and all of those wonderful qualities that have made America great. If they can be regenerated and then you can work on those things together, you know, then perhaps. But one has to realize it's not like, is it just going to happen? And no, no, no, this is gonna be, you know, can we operate well enough to be able to get fit again? It's a long shot to that dominant power of being the best of the best. That doesn't mean we can't find a way of being successful. But what does success really mean? What is its form?

A (20:36)

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B (21:57)

So I want to talk about leadership. I would say HBR operates out of a sense that it's always difficult to be the leader of a company. It is particularly difficult now, you know, you've lived through ups and downs, booms and busts. What's your advice for senior leaders who are trying to navigate what feels like a particularly challenging time right now?

C (22:16)

Know what you know and know what you don't know. And knowing how to deal with what you don't know is more important than anything you know. Align yourself with your board and your shareholders in a way that you have, you know, your common purpose. And in that common purpose there has to be an element of what do you do in a socially changing environment so that you know how to navigate the possible consequences of saying something. And you have to be aligned with your employees in terms of what your mission is and how you're going to achieve it and operate in that way. That's the most fundamental thing. Because otherwise there can be consequences to what you say or what you do, so that you almost lose your own beacon of thinking, what am I going after? And how do I compromise those things to achieve that goal?

B (23:13)

What's your advice on how to build a really good senior team? You know, from your past, what. What worked and what didn't?

C (23:19)

For me, my mantra was always, what do I want in life? And how does that carry over to what I do in my business? I wanted meaningful work and meaningful relationships. I want to be excellent at my work and have a passion for it, and I want to have excellent relationships that we're not just doing this as in a transactional basis, but we're on a mission together. So I have meaningful work and meaningful relationships through radical truthfulness and radical transparency. That was my mantra. That means if I'm thinking something or you're thinking something, that we will deal with that. To operate, to make the team the best team in the world, the best team that we can, knowing that we're going to go through the ups and downs together and that it'll make us more effective as a team. And it'll also be a joy, because when you have those relationships that you go through, in many cases with decades or that kind of special relationship, you gain more effectiveness and you also gain the joy of it. What are you after, what are you going after and who are you doing it with and how do you operate together? Those are the most fundamental principles, I think, that you have to have.

B (24:32)

So, I mean, the principles radical truthfulness, radical transparency, which are, you know, associated with you sound really appealing to. And, you know, I mean, there have been reports that it was a pretty tough climate. You know, people talked about paranoia and punishment and all that. And I think it's true that your successor has undone, you know, some of the, maybe not the principles, but sort of the way that that was carried out. My question, though, is, you know, would you tweak anything if you were doing it all over again?

C (24:58)

I think the real question, most importantly is are you going to be radically truthful and transparent? Are you going to share what you think? Can you build that trust of doing it, even if it's tough? In other words, a lot of people, they find mistakes painful. They find Facing their weaknesses. Painful. But think of it as a great team. If I'm going to deliver the best team and that we work well together, we're going to have to do that. Okay? We're going to have to deal with that. We can't be avoiding that. And how you do that is the most important thing. And not everybody's going to like it. At Bridgewater, it was something like 30% of the population won't make it two and a half years. And a huge percentage of the population can't work anywhere else. They go into the other organizations and everything's behind the scenes and there's the politicking and then they can't have the discussions and there's a sense of dishonor, modesty. But you have to create that particular culture. And so the exactness of how you do that, in my belief, that is what I believe. That's what worked. That's what took Bridgewater from a two bedroom apartment and led it to become successful. And there are people here with decades that we have. That's extraordinary power. But how you do it, exactly, how do you balance those things exactly, you know, that's up to you.

B (26:26)

I think people are trying to figure out what is the appropriate work culture. For a while there was a consensus from places like HBR that, you know, you wanted your employees to bring their whole selves to work. DEI was a critical component to everything. Now there's a backlash. So the question is, you know, where do we want to end up? Like, to what extent?

C (26:45)

I want to end up where I want to end up and where I began. And what carried us through was I want you to feel totally free to be yourself. You should never not feel free to be yourself and then be considerate with others and to operate that way. And that includes feel totally free to say, ask any questions or probe anything and operate in that way. Otherwise there's a duality. The duality isn't good for you. The duality isn't good for the organization. But to know also how to have thoughtful disagreement, like, can I see it through your eyes? Can you see it through my eyes? And then we have to make a decision. For me, it was idea meritocratic decision making. So in order to do that, we had believability weighted decision making. I won't get into exactly how it goes, but in other words, there are certain people that you'd say they have credibility in these areas and not credibility in those areas. And then you try to make an idea meritocracy. I believe that there's a great power of diversity. In other words, I like when there's all different. I love the United States for that because it brought all these different people from all different cultures. There is no absolute truth. Each person has to make if they own the company or they run the company. They have to decide what's true for them. So when I'm answering your question, which sounds like what is the absolute truth? I don't know. But I'm saying that I believe in that. That's work. And that honesty where you have radical truthfulness and radical transparency and operating that way, that was good. That is what kept some people together. And it wasn't for everyone.

B (28:28)

What should every CEO be asking themselves right now?

C (28:32)

Well, I think who are you? What matters to you? Are you aligned with where you're going and who you're with or are you not aligned with that? What do you want is people sometimes can lose sight of who they are and what they want because they're in a job that says success is going to equal this. And then they can be operating inconsistent with who they are, what they want. Now you have to figure those things out, but you don't have to be precise. You know, do I like the people I'm working with? Is it effective? Are we winning and is this what I want to do and are we aligned? That's of paramount importance. I think if we keep figuring out if something happened, anything happened, there were causes that made it happen and if we can approach it analytically and say what were the cause, effect, relationships, we can learn how reality works. You get these patterns, the same thing happens over and over. Put your hand on a hot stove. It doesn't take too many times to understand how reality works. So like I have a principle. Pain plus reflection equals progress. The learning from the mistakes. How does reality work and how should I deal with it? It teaches you if you're open minded and you learn and including finding out what your nature is and what your strengths and weaknesses are. People have different natures. In other words, there's some people who they like risk. They're big picture thinkers and they operate one way. Some people wouldn't like risk or they want to pay more attention to details. I found personality profiles. Tests is good. I've created one by the way, principles you. It's online free. Anybody could take it. They'll learn about their nature. You have to know your nature and then you're in pursuit of a path that aligns with your nature. And do you learn along the way and you're also open minded as well as opinionated. I think that that's how you find how reality is and how you then should deal with it in a way that complements who you are.

B (30:42)

That sounds great, Ray. Thank you for being on the HBR IdeaCast.

C (30:45)

My pleasure.

B (30:48)

That was Ray Dalio, hedge fund manager and author of How Countries Go the Big Cycle. Next week, Allison speaks to Antonio Nieto Rodriguez about restructuring your organization around projects to add more value. If you found this episode helpful, share it with a colleague and be sure to subscribe and rate IdeaCast in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. If you want to help leaders move the world forward, please consider subscribing to Harvard Business Review. You'll get access to the HBR Mobile app, the weekly exclusive Insider newsletter, and unlimited access to HBR Online. Just head to hbr.org subscribe and thanks watching for to our team, Senior Producer Mary Dew, Audio Product Manager Ian Fox and Senior Production Specialist Rob Eckhardt. And thanks to you for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. We will be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I'm Adi Ignatius.