Are Your Best Employees Eyeing the Door?

Summary

HBR On Leadership: Are Your Best Employees Eyeing the Door?

Release Date: October 23, 2024

In this insightful episode of HBR On Leadership, host Amy Gallo engages in a compelling conversation with Kate Tyler, Development Manager at Shell’s oil and gas business in Argentina, and Rachel Spivey, Director of Google’s Stay and Thrive team. The discussion centers around a critical issue facing leaders today: retaining top talent. Through sharing personal experiences, strategic insights, and actionable tactics, Kate and Rachel illuminate effective methods to ensure that your best employees feel valued, engaged, and motivated to stay.

---

1. The Reality of Employee Turnover

Kate Tyler opens the discussion by recounting a pivotal moment early in her supervisory career. She shares her experience of a high-potential employee announcing his departure for Facebook, highlighting her initial inaction and the lessons learned from that oversight.

“When I look back on my career, I had one high potential employee come to me. He had worked for me for about two years and he came to me and he said, I'm leaving. I'm going to Facebook. ... I just let him go. Like, I didn't.” (01:39)

Rachel Spivey empathizes with Kate’s situation, emphasizing the challenges managers face when equipped with limited tools to address employee departures.

“I see it. I understand if you're not necessarily equipped with the tools as a manager or like how to have those conversations. It's tricky.” (02:13)

---

2. Proactive Retention Strategies

Amy Gallo introduces Kate and Rachel, emphasizing their expertise in employee retention. She outlines the episode’s focus on tactics to make employees feel valued and respected, alongside approaches to career development for high-potential staff.

Kate Tyler responds by explaining her proactive stance in monitoring employee engagement, especially in a post-pandemic environment where many are reassessing their career trajectories.

“I'm actually thinking about it all the time. ... So people are questioning, you know, whether or not they see a future here.” (03:51)

Rachel Spivey identifies career progression as a crucial yet underutilized tool in retention strategies. She advocates for managers to co-create holistic career paths with employees, aligning both personal and professional goals.

“I think people underestimate the value of career progression. ... creating that path really helps employees clear up and make sure that they know what their future looks like at the company.” (04:57)

---

3. Aligning Career Paths with Company Strategy

The conversation delves into the importance of aligning employees' day-to-day roles with the broader company strategy. Kate Tyler discusses the challenges at Shell, where the transition to cleaner energy sources has led employees to question their long-term fit within traditional business models.

“... people want to go and work in hydrogen or wind or solar businesses that we've started, and they're still very small business part of our company.” (06:13)

Rachel Spivey shares Google’s approach to supporting managers in these conversations, emphasizing flexibility and personalization in career development discussions.

“We have encouraged touch points around time frames when we are supposed to touch bases with employees around career development. ... which really helps me lean in, build relationship and rapport.” (07:09)

---

4. Understanding and Addressing Employee Motivations

To effectively retain employees, understanding their underlying motivations is essential. Kate Tyler reveals her strategy of asking direct questions to uncover what would cause employees to leave, leading to deeper and more meaningful conversations.

“I asked them, you know, I'm doing this podcast about retention. I am curious on what it would take you to move to another company. ... they were very specific.” (13:22)

Rachel Spivey reinforces the importance of direct communication, sharing how asking straightforward questions can prevent unexpected departures and clarify employees' true interests.

“Asking direct questions to direct employees can be uncomfortable, but it can save you so many surprises down the line.” (16:35)

---

5. Tailoring Retention Efforts for Diverse Groups

Retaining employees from underrepresented groups requires a nuanced approach. Rachel Spivey advises managers to "know your audience", understanding the unique drivers and challenges faced by these employees to create effective action plans.

“Know your audience, know what they want, what are their drivers, what's gonna keep them here, what's gonna cause them to leave, and then also start to make an action plan based off of that.” (17:26)

---

6. Navigating Retention in Large Organizations

Kate Tyler discusses the complexities of implementing retention strategies within a large company like Shell, where policies and procedures can slow down the ability to act swiftly. Rachel Spivey offers practical advice on maintaining transparency about processes and leveraging peer support to expedite retention efforts.

“We have to be transparent about the process. ... and work within your sphere of influence to also help accelerate things.” (22:28)

---

7. The Role of Compensation in Retention

The duo explores the impact of financial incentives on employee retention. Kate Tyler argues that while competitive compensation is important, often the real reasons employees consider leaving go beyond monetary factors.

“... the money is a convenient excuse to not have to actually tell you the truth of sort of what has been happening for the last several months.” (30:30)

Rachel Spivey concurs, emphasizing that while cash remains a significant factor, micro-engagements and recognition can mitigate the allure of higher salaries elsewhere.

“I think the micro engagements, ... money is not as big of an attractor.” (31:31)

---

8. Implementing Retention Bonuses and Counteroffers

Rachel Spivey discusses the strategic use of retention bonuses and counteroffers, highlighting their effectiveness in preemptively addressing employees' intentions to leave.

“Yeah. ... counteroffers as an effective tool. I know a lot of people, ... what? I've got this money, so what? And stay at the place where they really want to stay, then it's just, it's a perfect marriage.” (32:04)

Kate Tyler acknowledges the challenges posed by bureaucratic red tape in large organizations, which can hinder the timely implementation of such incentives.

“I do use the proactive bonuses that we have at our disposal pretty, pretty extensively. ... all this red tape in order to actually just offer the bonuses.” (34:07)

---

9. Retaining Talent in Smaller Organizations

Addressing the concerns of leaders in smaller or mid-sized companies, Rachel Spivey underscores that significant impact on retention can be achieved even with limited resources by focusing on personal relationships and engagement.

“The first lesson is you can make impact even with the small or the few resources that you do have. ... don't underestimate your value or the impact you can make.” (27:28)

Kate Tyler complements this by highlighting the importance of micro engagements and maintaining constant, meaningful conversations with employees to foster a sense of purpose and belonging.

“... it's in the micro engagements, in the day to day and the constant conversations that you have.” (28:53)

---

10. Personal Reflections on Retention

The episode concludes with personal reflections from both Kate and Rachel on how their approaches to retention influence their own experiences within their organizations.

Rachel Spivey emphasizes her alignment with the company's purpose and financial stability as key factors in her long-term retention.

“I have a purpose driven. ... It is also a part of my retirement plan.” (34:20)

Kate Tyler echoes the sentiment of purpose-driven work, noting her commitment to making a difference and the challenges faced in the oil and gas industry.

“... I am making a difference in the world or for those around me that I'm working with.” (35:42)

---

Conclusion

This episode of HBR On Leadership offers a wealth of strategies and insights into employee retention, emphasizing the importance of proactive engagement, personalized career development, and understanding the deeper motivations that drive employees to stay or leave. By integrating these approaches, leaders can foster a work environment where top talent feels valued, engaged, and committed to the organization’s long-term success.

Notable Quotes

• Kate Tyler: “I just let him go. Like, I didn't.” (01:39)
• Rachel Spivey: “I see it. I understand if you're not necessarily equipped with the tools as a manager or like how to have those conversations.” (02:13)
• Rachel Spivey: “I think people underestimate the value of career progression.” (04:57)
• Kate Tyler: “I'm actually thinking about it all the time. ... whether or not they see a future here.” (03:51)
• Rachel Spivey: “Asking direct questions to direct employees can be uncomfortable, but it can save you so many surprises down the line.” (16:35)

---

By implementing the strategies discussed by Kate and Rachel, leaders can enhance their ability to retain top talent, ensuring sustained organizational success and a motivated, engaged workforce.

Transcript

[Asana Ad]

Asana is the number one AI work management platform. It's where work connects to company goals so your entire organization can move forward faster. Try for free [e-mail].

[Muriel Wilkins]

You know there's another HBR podcast you might like. Coaching Real Leaders takes you inside real life leadership coaching sessions. Host Muriel Wilkins has advised CEOs for nearly 20 years. Listen in as she helps guests work through their hardest career challenges. Find new episodes of Coaching Real Leaders wherever you get your podcasts.

[Amy Gallo]

Welcome to HBR on leadership case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts, hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. Do you know how your best employees feel about their work? Are they really feeling engaged and motivated, or are they already looking for a better opportunity? What would it take to make them want to stay? Today, we bring you a conversation about how to retain your best employees, including tactics you can use to help the people you manage feel valued and respected. You'll also learn how to approach career development with your high potential employees. This episode originally aired on Women at work in April 2022 as part of a special series called the Essentials. Here it is.

[Kate Tyler]

When I look back on my career, I had one Hyatt potential employee come to me. He had worked for me for about two years and he came to me and he said, I'm leaving. I'm going to Facebook. And I remember at the time, like, he had such a cool job. I thought he was super happy. And he sort of showed up and he was like, I got this job. I'm moving to California. And I was a new supervisor. And I did nothing. I was surprised by it. And I just let him go. Like, I didn't. I mean, I look back on that moment. I'm like, what was I thinking? I didn't call hr. I didn't even look at what was at my disposal.

[Rachel Spivey]

I see it. I understand if you're not necessarily equipped with the tools as a manager or like how to have those conversations. It's tricky. It's hard. You don't know what to say. You don't know where to go.

[Amy Gallo]

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. The two women you just heard are here to talk with me about retaining employees. We'll discuss tactics you can use, which conversations to have, and incentives to offer to help the people you manage feel valued and like they have a future on your team and at your organization. Since losing that high potential, Kate Tyler pushed herself to figure out what employees are actually feeling and motivated by. She hasn't lost anyone in four years. In her role managing Shell's oil and gas business in Argentina, she leads a team of 10 and she tries to keep a regular eye on whether the engineers on her team feel engaged or not. Rachel Spivey has made retaining and developing talent her full time job. A few years ago, Rachel and a colleague of hers started Google's Stay and Thrive team which supports black, Latinx and indigenous employees who are thinking about leaving. The team also supports managers by sharing with them data on engagement and attrition trends across the company. There's a lot we can all learn from both Kate and Rachel's experiences and expertise. So Kate, I want to start with you. You manage 10 employees. How often are you thinking about whether they'll leave or not in this climate?

[Kate Tyler]

I'm actually thinking about it all the time. My team of 10 is 50% in North America, in the US and Canada and then 50% here in Argentina and particularly the recovery post pandemic a bit if I can say that. I guess there is a lot of opportunities I would say for a lot of staff. And people I think are really questioning whether or not they want to stay at their existing employ. I think they wrote it out through the pandemic but now they're sort of saying like is this for me? Do I want to be here? And so for some people I think it's I've spent all this time now with my family all the time. Do I really want to return to the office which we are here? Or it's for others that are saying I want to be part of the energy industry and you know, the business that I support is our traditional or you could call it older business models. So people are questioning, you know, whether or not they see a future here.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah, that makes sense. And Rachel, you're an expert in getting employees to stay or actually figuring out what's preventing them from staying or tempting them to leave. What's one tool or tactic that you think managers are under utilizing at this moment?

[Rachel Spivey]

Yeah, I think people underestimate the value of career progression. And what I recommend is that managers work with employees to co create a holistic career path. And again, it's not just work, is also thinking about personal. So work with your employees to create something that aligns with their goals, their career goals as well as their personal goals. And I think just creating that path really helps employees clear up and make sure that they know what their future looks like at the company. So when another company comes to them, they're not as tempted to take that offer because they know where they stand at their current company.

[Amy Gallo]

Right. Well. And it sounds like you're also saying, can I picture doing this or doing something similar over a certain time period. Right. In terms of the actual progression in your career.

[Rachel Spivey]

Yes. Or is it a stepping stone to get where I actually want? So sometimes when we advise clients, that's employees, we look at employees as our clients. We advise them to think of, even if this isn't going to be the end all, be all for your career, is this a stepping stone that's going to help you get to that place and so helping them to think about it more broadly and holistically?

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah. Kate, are those questions around career path, career development, are those questions you regularly get from the people you manage?

[Kate Tyler]

Absolutely. I mean, like I said before, the fact that we are sort of the traditional business of Shell and Shell's trying to transition to more cleaner energy sources, I'm having those questions all the time because I will say, actually, even in our traditional businesses, people want to go and work in hydrogen or wind or solar businesses that we've started, and they're still very small business part of our company. So figuring out the steps, Rachel, as you say, to get there, I think is something that I. Well, I try to do. I don't know if I'm perfect at it, because it is. It's many steps, actually. And I like how you said that. Rachel, I'm curious, what do you guys do specifically to support managers in that role of career development? Because we have systems in place, but sometimes they feel very forced. And so for me, I take a more personal tactic where, like, I'm talking about it more frequently. But I'm curious just on how Google manages this and what you guys give to managers to support them.

[Rachel Spivey]

We do have formal mechanisms. And then sometimes I personally, as a manager myself, I adapt them to what feels comfortable for me. And so that's what I encourage you to do. So we have encouraged touch points around time frames when we are supposed to touch bases with employees around career development. And they do give us a template. So, like, fill out this box here. Here, fill out this box here. I instead turned it into a conversational guide, which really helps me lean in, build relationship and rapport, and also better understand what's happening holistically in that employee's life. So, you know, are you trying to buy a car? Are you trying to buy a house? Are you trying to start a family? Those key things that can help me also understand where they want to go and drive that piece. And so take what your employer gives you, but then also customize it to a way that it feels comfortable for you to be able to action on a day to day basis with your employees.

[Amy Gallo]

Is that helpful, Kate?

[Kate Tyler]

Yeah, it is. It's also really interesting. Like one of the other sort of challenges that I have here in Argentina is one of the major employee value propositions of why people choose to work for Shell is because it's an international company. So there's this hope or desire by almost all employees here of being able to take an international assignment. And that specifically also in the post pandemic world is ever shrinking because we've proved we could do it virtually. And so finding a balance between those stepping stones, when that is sort of one of the major goals, can be really challenging in my view. I don't know if you have any advice, either of you.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah, well, I wonder, Rachel, when things are shifting and it's not clear what you'll be able to offer employees in the future, in two years, five years, how do you have those conversations in a way that still feel authentic, honest, and paint a picture for the person where they can see themselves at the company in that time period?

[Rachel Spivey]

One of the things that we try and do is embrace the moment. And so to your point about, you know, we also have highly sought after international rotation programs that had to be shut down. But in the hybrid work model, that means you can technically work from anywhere. So if you want to work from a different location, you could do that and kind of make your own rotational program. And so what I just always recommend is being transparent about what's in your control, what's not in your control, and then help them optimize for where we are in the moment. So as much as it's daunting because we're on a new horizon, I also want us to encourage just to think that it's exciting that we get to shape this together.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah, well, and I loved what you said about be clear about what's in your control and what's not. And I think, Kate, as I think about you having to have these conversations with people who think, well, I took this job because someday I wanted to work in France or someday I wanted to work in the Middle East. Right. To be able to say, I can't guarantee that. I hear that it is an important thing to you. I'm going to keep that in mind as we continue to navigate this uncertain future. I know what matters to you, and you're a Valuable employee. And I'm going to do my best to give you those things when it's in my control.

[Kate Tyler]

Exactly.

[Amy Gallo]

That said, I think we're all dealing with employees who are disappointed that things didn't work out the way they wanted or that there's a policy, for example, to come back to the office when they wanted to continue to work remotely. And, Rachel, in your experience, when employees are really upset about a specific thing and that's what's sort of driving their desire to go somewhere else, how do you handle that? Do you try to make exceptions to policies or rules? How much do you individualize these retention plans that you have for folks?

[Rachel Spivey]

Yeah, so I really listen to them and understand what's underneath of it. Right. I don't make an assumption about what that is. So back even when we were in the office, someone, they wanted to move to a different location, and it wasn't possible for their role. And a lot of people could have assumed. Well, they just. I thought they didn't like the commute. You know, they don't like the commute. They don't want to go back and forth. But then when we asked the employee and we said, what is really underneath this? They said that, hey, in this area, there are no other black children for my child to play with. And that is critical for me raising children. And so I want to be in an area that is more diverse. And when they, meaning their manager, understood the value proposition better, we were better able to adapt and make some better decisions based on the information. So a lot of times I try and number one, dig underneath. If we can make some exceptions, we do try to. If we can't, we can also try and within our realm, provide a timeframe for when that will happen. So, for example, maybe you can't move right now, but we do see a time horizon within a year for you to be able to move. And then the decision is really up to them. They might decide that they want to leave, or they might say, you know what, Actually, I do love the work that I do. I love my manager. I can wait the year to make that move. And so I think it's also just digging under there.

[Amy Gallo]

In negotiation terms, we call that their interests. Right. So they may say, I want a higher salary. I want to work in this specific location. I want to work from home. But then their interests are. But why? Why is that? What's driving that? That decision? And trying to understand that as a manager can really give you a lot of information that you can then respond to.

[Asana Ad]

Asana is the number one AI work management platform. It's where work connects to goals so your entire organization can move forward faster. Asana is where AI is seamlessly intertwined with every project, team and goal. Try for free [e-mail] that's asana.com.

[Amy Gallo]

Kate, you recently asked a few of your team members a really straightforward, simple question. What would cause you to take a job with another company tomorrow?

[Kate Tyler]

I did. I mean, full disclosure, I use this podcast as sort of a buffer, right? Yeah, I did, I did. I asked them, you know, I'm doing this podcast about retention. I am curious on what it would take you to move to another company. And actually when I started asking people this question, I found actually it opened up deeper conversations than I had expected. Specifically in like, what I was amazed by is that if it's financial, people have a number in their head. Two of my employees were like 20%, the other one was like 50% increase. So they were very specific. Which means that, you know, it tells me something that they had clearly thought about it.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah.

[Kate Tyler]

And then a few actually said that it would have to be that they felt that their day to day was more aligned with the company strategy, which I also found quite interesting because I've mentioned before, I've been, you know, our traditional business and so when our company is talking about what we're doing in the future in our growth businesses, it can be difficult on a day to day to produce oil and gas.

[Amy Gallo]

So. So what did you take away from those conversations? What do you want to do differently?

[Kate Tyler]

Specifically, I realized that their intrinsic motivations are just different and I think all employees are in different places. I actually just recently read an article in the New York Times about the love language of business. I don't know if any of you guys read that.

[Amy Gallo]

I saw that too. Yeah. Yep. For our listeners who haven't read that article, it's about, as an employee, what's your love language that's going to get you to stay Right. How do you feel valued and respected in your organization? And it very much encouraged managers to have these sorts of conversations and to figure out what exactly is going to make your employees stick around.

[Kate Tyler]

And when I read that, I immediately wanted my team to do it because it's how you show recognition. So I just, I've recognized that. I actually think that I need to approach my staff in a different way and also reward potentially in a different way. So those that are saying monetary, right, like we have discretionary bonuses that we can give out, like, maybe I should be Skewing more towards that. But then for those that said, the day to day feeling like it's aligned with company strategy, maybe, Rachel, to your point, it's having deeper conversations around career steps and what needs to happen for them to make sure that they stay at Shell.

[Rachel Spivey]

A quick tactical tip. I put that at the top of my one on one docs for all of my reports. So at the very top I put like how they like to be rewarded. And at my company, you can be rewarded monetarily in two different ways. I also specify like, which way do you want it? And that is a constant reminder. And so if they do something great, I can just click quickly, go back to the top of that one on one doc and reference. This is how this person likes to be recognized.

[Amy Gallo]

Right. So that's the doc. You keep your agenda for your one on ones and your notes and oh, that's so smart. I love that.

[Kate Tyler]

That's amazing. Rachel, did you just come out and ask them like, okay, between these two ways? Awesome.

[Rachel Spivey]

I love that. Yes, I'm very transparent and very direct, very east coast. So.

[Amy Gallo]

Actually, let me ask you that, Rachel, because this, this exercise that Kate did, using the podcast as an excuse, what would cause you to take a job with another company tomorrow? Do you feel like people should be just coming out and asking those sorts of questions?

[Rachel Spivey]

Yes. So asking direct questions to direct employees can be uncomfortable, but it can save you so many surprises down the line. So I'm a victim of it too. I remember about two years ago, I lost an employee by surprise and I was shocked. This is my job. How did I not realize that she was looking somewhere else? And so that really helped me remember that I need to be doing this practice thoroughly, especially within my own organization. The more you do it and the more hygiene you have around it, the more comfortable you get, the better results you have. And again, you want to avoid those big surprises down the line.

[Amy Gallo]

Rachel, many managers are concerned right now about retaining employees from underrepresented groups. What advice do you have about targeting your efforts to keep people for specific groups or populations?

[Rachel Spivey]

Yes, I think it goes back to know your audience, know what they want, what are their drivers, what's gonna keep them here, what's gonna cause them to leave, and then also start to make an action plan based off of that. So I find that in our past, we got caught up on just understanding the issue and not actually solving it. And so take the time to actually solve the issue and you can still be transparent about, hey, this is what I can do. This is what's in my control, this is what's outside of my control. And make good on those promises. Over time, you will see that that builds trust and credibility and that will also help people stay longer to see if you're continuing to make good on those promises that you committed to them at the beginning.

[Kate Tyler]

So, Rachel, you work for Google, which is heavy data analytics. So I think I read somewhere that Google does intermittent, like Salesforce pulse checks. I would love to understand, like, how you collect that aggregate big data and then realize these kinds of things, because I think that's something that just fascinates me. Like Shell does, you know, an annual pulse in our annual survey, and then it's up to the manager to do intermittent pulses. So curious how Google manages that.

[Rachel Spivey]

Sure. And I would just also say that we are not the end all, be all. We still have lots of ways that need to learn and grow. And we just introduced the pulse checks not too long ago. So don't worry if you haven't started yet. That's never too late. And so with those pulse checks, we do have a central team that looks at the data, sees how we're trending, and then also year over year or quarter over quarter, whatever regularity that you're doing the pulse checks, just checking what's trending, what's up, what are some of the top headlines or the higher scoring items? What are some of the lower scoring items? How does that change over time? And we also use the pulse checks to be able to adapt in the moment. So, for example, hybrid approach to work, how are you liking working from home? How are you liking your equipment? Now that we're going back to the office, are you excited to go back to the office? What are some of your concerns? And so that's the benefit of a pulse check, is to be able to adapt quickly and get a pulse of the organization more easily. But I am a big proponent of word of mouth and keeping your ear to the street. And so even without that, and even within my team, you can start to see trends before they pop up in the data. Because we're speaking to employees regularly, we're regularly engaging them. And so even without a big data system, if you speak to the people and use a grassroots approach, you can probably get to some of that data and information as well.

[Kate Tyler]

Yeah. Cool.

[Amy Gallo]

And Rachel, how do you make sure that what you're hearing is not an outlier or the squeaky wheel? Right.

[Rachel Spivey]

Yes. I personally feel, Amy, every voice counts and it's often a bellwether of what's happening more broadly, whether people chose to speak out or not. And so I really value every single Googler's voice. Now, where we do look at his trends, for example, if we see three or more people in the same team say that thing, then we can say, hey, this seems like a bigger, broader problem. But the way I break it down, Amy, is I have a team of 30 people now. And so if I get that, everyone's mad. Okay, well, how many people are mad? Well, actually it's five. Okay, so why are those people upset? Like, why do they want to leave?

[Kate Tyler]

And.

[Rachel Spivey]

And then if I get to the heart of it, two might be because they're worried about career development, two might be because of something else. And. And then I just try and just chop down the problem. But still validating. And so when I go back to that person who is concerned about career development, I can say, this is what this means for your career. I know that it could be upsetting, but this is what it means. This is what we're planning. And so I think just taking that approach really helps me both understand the size and the complexity of the issues and what are challenges for individual employees. And then you can solve that way.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah, I love that. Kate, you had another question for Rachel?

[Kate Tyler]

Yeah. There's obviously things that managers disposal in order to get people to stay. Right. There's retention bonuses you could give out. You know, you could do flexible work schedules or whatever that is. But oftentimes what I find is in a big company, implementing those mechanisms can be long or there's a big process or it's not quick enough. Because in my experience, if an employee is thinking of leaving, they've been thinking about this for months. This is not like a, I woke up on a Tuesday and I'm going to tell my boss that I considering going. And so how do you then quickly enough implement something that could actually retain them when you also work in a big company that has policies and procedures that can oftentimes seem like red tape in order to actually have the nimbleness or the flexibility that you need as a manager in the moment?

[Rachel Spivey]

Yeah. So one thing I would be is transparent about the process. So I find that even being transparent about the process and this could look like I have to go to this person and then this person and then this person and then this person to get an answer. Just being open about that alleviates some anxiety because you're also bringing them along the journey versus if you just give a general answer of. Let me get back to you. That could mean so many different things. And while that person is thinking about their next step and leaving that ambiguity, they could choose to leave. So I think just being transparent and then saying, okay, I'm at step two, I'm at person three, I'm at person four, giving them updates along the way. The other thing I think about is just rallying with your peers. And so I use and pull on a lot of managers, other managers in my sphere of influence that I can reach out to and say, hey, I need help with this. Can you help me? My employee wants to get over here. Do you have any roles open? Can you help here? And so work within your sphere of influence to also help accelerate things. The last thing I would say in that piece is also give feedback to your company. You have a voice too. You, as a manager, your voice should be heard and your voice should be recognized. So give feedback to your company and say, hey, I've lost three employees because of these three things over the last year. I think this is where we need to make a change and say it over and over again until you start to see some of that. And so we are definitely a bigger, larger company now, too. We have lots of steps. But I think the more that you realize that you also have some autonomy in there too, of making sure that the organization can be flexed long term, I think that that will help as well.

[Kate Tyler]

I love the steps, like, of the I need to talk to this person and this person, and then they need to talk to HR and this one. Like, I actually really love that because I don't know if I deploy that enough, because I do know, I do know those steps well.

[Amy Gallo]

And I can actually hear in my head so many people I know who've gone to their boss and asked for something because they want to stay or they've asked for a counteroffer, they've asked, you know, any of those things. Just that, you know, where do things stand? While I'm waiting to hear back? While I'm waiting to hear back, there's just a lot of room in that limbo to think and rethink what you want. But if you know, oh, we're on step two of four steps, and so far things are looking good, it can be a little more encouraging.

[Rachel Spivey]

Yes.

[Amy Gallo]

And your point, Rachel, about turning to your fellow managers? I think that the other element of that, that might be helpful also, if you do work in a large bureaucratic organization, is that they might have advice about how they've been able to get things either more quickly or what they've been able to offer what's been in their immediate area of control that they've been able to do because there's things that are possible that we didn't know were possible. But someone else said, well, this is what I did last month when my best employee was about to walk.

[Rachel Spivey]

Yeah. And a big piece of that and I didn't even cover it. Which is just say, I want you to stay. You mean something to me. I value you. I have a plan and a career path for you here. Start there. That is one of the biggest, most monumental things you can do. We also conduct exit interviews. And a lot of times in exit interviews, sometimes employees will say, this is the first time anyone's asked me why I was leaving or why they wanted them to stay. And so I think even just starting out with the fact that you matter, I want you here, I want you to stay. And this is what I'm going to do about it. That is a key message to drive home. Recruiters at other companies are driving some really core messages to your employees. It's a competition I think about what is the script that other recruiters are using at other companies to get my employees and how can I reframe that to keep them here?

[Kate Tyler]

Right.

[Amy Gallo]

Well, because they're selling, right? Yes, they're selling a current job and a future job to your employee. When you're managing, you're not thinking about selling, you're thinking about managing. But having that frame of mind, which I think, Rachel, is sort of what you and your group do is how do we actually convince employees that this is the right place for them? Assuming it is.

[Rachel Spivey]

Yeah, exactly.

[Amy Gallo]

I have a question for both of you. You both work at large companies and I'm sure many of our listeners work at smaller mid sized companies. And saying my place is not Google, my place is not Shell, I do not have these resources. What can I do to retain people if I can't offer them more money or a career path that involves living in another country or even a promotion like some of these smaller organizations, there's nowhere to move up. Any thoughts on what might work for those folks who have less at their hands?

[Rachel Spivey]

So I will say that the good news is my team started small. It started with me and one other person. So the reality is we did not start big. It was not this grand vision of what we were going to do or accomplish, but we were still able to make impact. So the first lesson is you can make impact even with the small or the few resources that you do have. And I think A critical juncture is managers. Managers are really key to an employee's experience and that is again, cultivating a relationship. And even if you don't have an opportunity to provide them, for example, a promotion, maybe you can give them great projects, maybe you can give them that recognition that they want. There are so many things at a manager's disposal and I really always encourage managers with this simple fact. So, so usually we work with an employee for on average of 100 days and we are able to see 86% retention rate with that. So this is after someone's already thinking about leaving, they have one foot off the door, we work with them for 100 days, 86% stay. Wow, what can you drive if you work with that person every single day? We only have 100 days, but what kind of impact can you make with that span that you work with that employee? And so I do encourage managers that you are the critical piece, piece of the puzzle and so don't underestimate your value or the impact you can make.

[Kate Tyler]

I think that was beautifully said, Rachel. You know, even though I work in a major company, we've gone through the highest of highs of oil price as it is right now. We've gone through the lowest of lows when it was in Covid, and quite frankly, a lot of our resources in the HR department have been cut. And so I've found for myself, for me to be as most effective as I possibly can is to show up in the spaces that no longer exist. And so it's talking to employees all the time and making sure that they feel that they're enjoying the work that they're doing, that they find purpose in it, that they are motivated to come to work. And all of those things, at least in my view, have always worked better than getting to a point where you're at a situation where the employee is now showing up at your door and saying, I got a 20% higher job offer at this other place and you don't have any now strings to pull at all. I think it's in the micro engagements, in the day to day and the constant conversations that you have.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah, I want to ask about money because there is this idea that it's the end all be all for people and if they leave, they're leaving because they got that 20% raise or that 50% raise. In your experience, is that actually true? How much does money matter?

[Kate Tyler]

I think that there's always a price. So in my view, I think that there will always be a price that someone will jump. But More personally, if you're in the ballpark of like, I would say, like 20 to 50%, in my experience, there's other reasons underlying that. And the money is a convenient excuse to not have to actually tell you the truth of sort of what has been happening for the last several months that they're choosing to leave.

[Amy Gallo]

Right.

[Rachel Spivey]

And I would say counteroffers are often the first time that someone feels seen or recognized. And a lot of times employees aren't even thinking about comp until another company comes and offers them more. And so I think that the micro engagements, I love that, Kate. The more you can make sure that your employee feels seen and recognized, the money is not as big of an attractor. And so the more you can do that, I think the better there is a piece of money. And it's not just about dollars and cents though, too. It's about lifestyle changes. A lot of the people we work with and the employees we speak to, they say, I want to buy a house and I can't do it on this salary. And helping contextualize it and humanize the elements of the money can really help the employers and especially the managers see the value in giving them more. And maybe it's like, okay, we can help with this down payment, or maybe you can't, but at least being transparent about that and letting them feel seen and heard.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah, there's always a reason behind the dollar number, right? Like the actual figure. And the reason might be I just don't feel valued. Right. I hear what my college friends are making and it's so much more. And that makes me feel undervalued. There's all those different reasons. I do want to ask about retention bonuses and counteroffers because I've heard more about retention bonuses in the last few months than I ever heard before. And I'm curious if this is playing a role in your efforts to convince people to stay. Rachel.

[Rachel Spivey]

Absolutely. That's the short answer. Cash is king still. And so in particular in the tech sector, there's these really high value unicorn startups that are popping up that are able to offer our employees lots and lots of money. And so I think in combination with inflation, so I think the comp conversation in relation to inflation makes comp even more important. So if you haven't addressed that question that employees might have around, hey, everything around me is going up. The prices of everything around me is going up. What are we doing to stay competitive? I think that's the real heart of it. But to your point, yeah, cash is king. And Proactive is better. So the more you can get ahead and offer them proactive bonuses. So before they're thinking about leaving and come to you with a counter offer, if you, for example, look at your top employees and you decide to give them a proactive bonus, that helps yield off some of the counter offers that might come later. Even still, we've still found counteroffers as an effective tool. We still see people stay. I know a lot of people, there's mixed reviews about counter offers. Well, they only stay for a little bit. A lot of times Googlers come to us and say, I don't want to leave Google, but I got so much more money and I want to again start a family, whatever that thing is for them, so what? I've got this money, so what? And so if you can help give them that, so what? And stay at the place where they really want to stay, then it's just, it's a perfect marriage.

[Kate Tyler]

I do use the proactive bonuses that we have at our disposal pretty, pretty extensively. Oftentimes what I'm finding. And there's several things that they need to stay. And there's just a really slow reaction. I just really wish that there wasn't all this red tape in order to actually just offer the bonuses or do a paid adjustment or to, you know, do the things that you need to monetarily.

[Amy Gallo]

Right. So this is clearly a topic you both think about quite a bit. And I'm curious, has thinking about it changed the way you think about your own retention at the company?

[Rachel Spivey]

For me, and this is what I also advise for my clients. I'm purpose driven. Where am I aligned? Where is my purpose? Where am I making impact? And I feel like all of those are in alignment at this current company. It is also a huge part of my financial future. And so being at this company for 12 years has led and opened up so many doors for me financially that I never would have thought of. And it is a part of my retirement plan. I'll be very frank. So for any company to come to me with another offer, you have to go big because there's always a number. Yeah, I've seen the value. I know what my path looks like. I can see a finish line. And right now I'm happy on my path to get there. So I think it does make me reflect and I think it also, it also encourages me to check in with my employees because it is confusing, especially if someone gets a new, exciting offer at another company. What does this mean for me? Should I be leaving? Should I be trying to get an offer and you always have to do that constant check in and re ground yourself. And for me it's that purpose. It's like my financial goals where I want to get in my personal and professional.

[Amy Gallo]

Yeah, that's great. Kate, how about you?

[Kate Tyler]

Yeah, I mean I will say I have spent so much more time over the last two years really reflecting on what, what really matters to me, how I want to spend my time. I'm also very purpose driven. Comp for me is is there but it to me, it's whether or not I feel like I'm making a difference in the world or for those around me that I'm working with. And so I think it's been a rough go, I will say, in the oil and gas industry over the last, the last two years. And so I absolutely have thought about it. But I see a huge role that I could play here now, also being in Argentina and supporting many of the staff here.

[Amy Gallo]

Thank you both. This has been such an enjoyable conversation and I think it's going to be so useful for so many people. So thank you.

[Kate Tyler]

Thanks.

[Rachel Spivey]

Thank you.

[Amy Gallo]

You just just heard Kate Tyler, a development manager at Shell, and Rachel Spivey, director of Google's Stay and Thrive team, in conversation with Amy Gallo on Women at Work. We'll be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation about leadership from the Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, be sure to leave us a review. And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books and videos with the world's top business and management experts, you'll find it [e-mail] this episode was produced by Amanda Kersey, Ann Sanny and me, Hannah Bates. Ann Fox is our editor. Music by Coma Media Special thanks to Rob Eckhart, Tina Tobymack, Erica Truxler, Maureen Hoch, Ramsey Kabaz, Nicole Smith, Ann Bartholomew and you, our listener. See you next week.