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- [00:01]
Kurt Nickish
AI is transforming the world, and it starts with the right compute ARM is the AI compute platform trusted by global leaders, proudly NASDAQ listed. Built for the future. Visit arm.com discover.
- [00:25]
Hannah Bates
Welcome to HBR on leadership case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. What's your leadership vibe? Is it confident or compassionate? Aggressive or collaborative? Or maybe none of the above? Suzanne Peterson says many talented professionals get held back from leadership roles for relatively intangible reasons like their vibe. But she argues that aspiring leaders can learn to alter their everyday interactions in small ways that can have a big influence on their professional reputation. Peterson is an associate professor of leadership at Thunderbird School of Global Management at Arizona State University. In this episode, you'll learn how to adopt markers of different leadership styles to be seen as influential or likable or both. You'll also learn how to shift your thinking from a focus on competence alone to building relationships that will help you move forward. If you're an aspiring leader trying to get to the next level, this episode is for you. It originally aired on HBR IdeaCast in November 2020. Here it is.
- [01:50]
Kurt Nickish
Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from welcome to Harvard Business Review. I'm Kurt Nickish. There's a roadblock many people run into at work. They get the feedback that they're not ready for a promotion or a new project, and when they ask why, no one puts a finger on it. They're missing a certain something, something intangible, which to be honest, is not very helpful. But it's common that when it comes to leadership to identify leaders, that it's a bit squishy for too many superiors. Leadership is a vibe that someone gives off, and some people show it much better than others. Our guest today has some advice for this situation. How to know your own leadership style, how to understand how others see it or don't, and then how to change your behavior so that you can break through to the next level. Suzanne Peterson is an associate professor of leadership at the Thunderbird School of Global Management at Arizona State University. She's also a partner at the consultancy cra and she's the co author with Robin Abramson and RK Stuttman of the HBR article How to Develop youp Leadership Concrete Advice for a Squishy Challenge Suzanne, thanks for coming on the show.
- [03:07]
Suzanne Peterson
Thanks so much for having me, Kurt. Happy to be here.
- [03:12]
Kurt Nickish
Does that situation I just described sound familiar?
- [03:15]
Suzanne Peterson
It absolutely does. And you know, it truly is a squishy challenge. And I have to tell you, as much as this applies to people at work, what we find is this is relevant to anybody. I mean, whether you are trying to be more collaborative with a team, whether you want to impress that new father in law, whether you're trying to influence your spouse, be more authoritative with your kids, be a trusted friend. Style matters. And it tends to be something that we find people are constantly trying to navigate. But it isn't always at the level of awareness of what am I doing or not doing that really makes a difference in how I'm perceived.
- [03:52]
Kurt Nickish
It sounds like it's not only your own awareness, but also the awareness of managers above you is part of the problem.
- [03:58]
Suzanne Peterson
It absolutely is. And all too often when we're talking to managers of people we coach and we simply say, what's the biggest challenge here? Usually we'll hear something like, you know, they're just not really ready yet to sit at the table. They just don't quite have the gravitas. They're not engaging enough, they're not charismatic enough, they're not dynamic. Or it can be another version of, you know, they're a little off putting, they haven't really figured out how to manage the relationships, they're not politically savvy. There's something that comes up, but when it comes to actually delivering, say, a performance review, they're not very good at actually saying, let me tell you what it would look like for you to be more influential or for you to disagree a little differently than you do. They simply give these large general buckets that leave feeling a little bit confused in terms of, I understand what you mean, but I don't know what to do on Monday. And then the real problem is, is people, when they're given this feedback of you need to be more confident or you need to be more assertive, they take that as being personality. And so it's very difficult to say, you know, maybe I can't change that, Maybe I'm not confident, maybe I'm not assertive, maybe I am a little too direct. Whatever feedback I'm getting, we read it as quite attributional. You know, style and personality are not the same. Personality is much more who you are largely unchangeable. And style, on the other hand, is not personality. It's a set of behaviors, it's a set of habits. It's what you do. So the quickest thing we come to when we talk to a manager or somebody that we're coaching and we say, you know, people really find you Arrogant? Well, frankly, we don't care so much whether the person is or isn't arrogant by personality. Instead, what we're looking at is, well, what are the behaviors that equal arrogance?
- [05:44]
Kurt Nickish
So when the managers say, you're putting off these attributions and they say, not confident, what are the behaviors that are leading to the manager or supervisor having that opinion or giving that attribution? What are they seeing?
- [05:59]
Suzanne Peterson
The biggest ones, usually we will hear when we get indicators, is that people will fall into one of two buckets. They either are giving off what we call the power behaviors or they're giving off what we call the attractive behaviors. Neither one is good or bad. The idea is the power behaviors in the positive is when you get these attributions of dynamic, charismatic, confident, commanding, an expert, articulate, easy to listen to, influential. But on the downside, that power style sometimes is intimidating, aggressive, off putting, cold, not relational. Sometimes when someone's in a meeting, they say, wow, that person's very abrasive. What we'll find is they'll say, well, I'm just direct. But actually it's really that they. Not that they were direct or had a comment or that disagreed, but they disagreed in a very disagreeable way. They interrupted the person maybe not once, but two or three times. 2. They pretty much said, you're wrong and I'm right. That's what made them abrasive, not the fact that they disagreed. But on this whole other side of the spectrum is these attractive markers as well, which those attributions are passive, quiet, deferential, nice, easy to talk to, great mentor, great teammate, collaborator, all good stuff. But on the downside, sometimes it was all the things around. Weak, too passive, too deferential, not really. A leader doesn't have gravitas, doesn't get listened to, too detail oriented, too many qualifiers and their statements, too many ums and uhs when they speak. And this hurt the them a little bit. So we all have the ability to go one side or the other. It just depends how and when they're used.
- [07:54]
Kurt Nickish
And where do people, most people who are at that juncture where they become technically competent or good at their jobs and they are looking to advance and gain more leadership and influence in their organizations, where do their styles typically hold them back? Is it when people tend to have a more attractive, approachable, likable style? Or is that just a nature of where they are in their careers and it's difficult to get a more powerful style? Or the other way around? Like, what's the common pathway Here.
- [08:25]
Suzanne Peterson
Yeah, I think it's a great question. And certainly context matters, culture matters, the industry matters. In terms of what's more perpetuated as a style that works, what works in the finance industry might not work in the tech industry or the fashion industry. But to your point, what we find, if I can tell you which one's easier, we clearly find that it is a little bit easier to coach people to go from a powerful style to an attraction style. So easier to get somebody who might be a little too abrasive, too difficult to get along with, too dominant, whatever the attribution is. Easier to give them tools to lean more attractive than it is to give people who naturally lean a little bit more attractive to get them to move up to power. Certainly not impossible. We do it all the time with people, but that's a little harder. But I think, to answer your question more directly, probably when we see somebody get a little bit stuck in their career, it's more often the lean attractive.
- [09:26]
Kurt Nickish
Yeah. And then the reaction for a lot of people is to try to take charge or take ownership of a project. And they think that leadership is authority. And as they adopt kind of a more powerful stance, they often get pushback for that. That often works against them.
- [09:43]
Suzanne Peterson
Yeah. And it's a classic over rotation style. It's very minor tweaks, can make big differences. So usually when we do, and we have so many clients that want to listen and want to take the advice, and what they'll do is if we tell, and this is an example, recently I'm working with someone who needs to lean a little bit more powerfully to get listened to. So, and I go to him and I say, here's, you know, two or three things you can do. Well, he, instead of doing two or three things, does five or six of them. Right. So now he's, you know, starting the conversation, he's interrupting during the conversation. He's raising his hand on their video conference every five seconds.
- [10:22]
Kurt Nickish
Sitting at the head of the table. Yeah.
- [10:25]
Suzanne Peterson
You know, making intense eye contact, contact. He understood the behaviors and said, I get it. I need to make a few tweaks and changes. But we're always backing off, saying, you know what? Not, not that much, really. One or two would have been fine. It's just a slight flex. Right. We want you to flex your style. We're not trying to change anybody. We need people to all be very authentic to who they are. But we all have range. And as soon as we find somebody's range and say, we think your range from Going powerful to attractive is about here. Stay within your range and it's all very authentic.
- [11:00]
Kurt Nickish
Yeah. I was going to say this feels like for a lot of people, it feels like they've already set a precedent at their job and they're known in a certain way. And that to change might feel foreign at some point, right. Or inauthentic, like you're not really being yourself or at least the work self that you've created in the culture of your organization and in your experience there.
- [11:26]
Suzanne Peterson
We're all changing our style all the time. Most of us understand that, you know, how you behave at a happy hour is a little different than a board meeting. Right? That there's a natural flex without becoming a different person. But the example I like to use is imagine you're on an airplane. Remember when we all used to do that a little more? You'd go on an airplane and let's say you were trying to put your bag in the overhead compartment and it's all full. It's full. You were too late on the plane. You don't know where you're going to put your bag. You don't really want to check it. And you notice that the person sitting, sitting in the rows with you, they just put some things up there, like a really small purse or bag. There's their food up there, a hat, right? What would you do naturally? Are you the type that's going to move people's stuff around and put your bag up there? Are you going to ask people, would you mind putting that under the seat so I could put my bag up there? Or are you a person naturally, who's going to say, I'm just. I wouldn't interrupt people and tell them to move their things. I would never touch other people's things. I'll ask the flight attendant to help or I'll just check my bag and deal with it. No right or wrong here. We have kind of a natural place. But let's assume that that person whose stuff was in the overhead that had just the food and the bag and the small hat or whatever, was a 17 year old with headphones sitting there. Would you be more apt to go to that 17 year old? And most people, even if they originally said without context that I wouldn't move people's things, say, well, maybe if it was a 17 year old, I would, okay, well, what if instead it happened to be your CEO? Are you still going to go to the CEO and say, hey, would you mind moving your hat? Most people would go, probably not. If I'm going to sit next to my CEO on the ride probably. I don't want the first conversation to be me moving his stuff around or her stuff around. So the point is it's based on resources. When we feel resourceful, we behave more powerfully. So we're changing it all the time. I want you to think more specifically in every situation you go into. How do you want to be seen?
- [13:28]
Kurt Nickish
It sounds like this is a process, right? It's not really sort of changing your style overnight, but it's trying some things on, seeing how they perform and really trying to work towards something rather than really just flip a switch, so to speak. What do you tell people about this journey? What should they expect?
- [13:48]
Suzanne Peterson
Usually what we tell people first of all is make small changes, so don't try and do too much. Sometimes one, two of these markers as we look through the list that's even in the article. Picking one or two things is plenty for you to start to change perceptions. And two, we tell people, don't get so wrapped up in how you feel. Focus more on the behavior. Sometimes, frankly, we're going to go into situations and say, I do not feel confident. But the question is, I really don't want people to know that. So what can I do that shows confidence that has me behave more confidently? And the idea is those emotions catch up with the behavior. When I give a presentation, for example, there's no way 100% of the time you're going to feel confident. But if I walk out there looking down, my shoulders down, I can't look at the audience. I start out and say, so glad to be here and thank you, and I say, sound tentative. I've already maybe lost that audience. So if I think, let's see, I need to go out there, I need really good posture, I need to look the audience in the eye. Doesn't mean it's always easy. But I go out there and I need a strong two minute start where I'm able to say, here's three or four things I'm going to talk to you about today that are going to fundamentally change your leadership. For example, now I have the audience's attention, which then begins to give me some confidence. For example, and now I say, actually I'm okay. Gosh, any of us that are parents out there of anybody who is, we do this with our kids. You know, sometimes we can't be the authoritarian and the, you know, an authoritative style every time, right? Eventually it's like, yeah, you're a dictator, but we also can't. We Feel we can't be, you know, open and diplomatic and whatever you want, be your best friend. But sometimes saying, gosh, my child's going through something tough. How do I want to be perceived Today I want to be perceived as a great listener and the next day I need to be perceived as the authority that's going to say that behavior is not okay. So it changes if you flex it. If not, we get attributions as parents too. You're this. And people that flex more don't get those same attributions. They're more strategic with their style.
- [16:03]
Kurt Nickish
What about for women or people of color? How do they need to think about this differently? The research on the double bind for women, for instance, is really clear, right, that they have to show warmth and competence. So it feels like the flex you're talking about is already built into that double bind that they have. How does this thinking change if you're approaching this problem as a woman or as a person of color?
- [16:32]
Suzanne Peterson
It's a big issue. And when we get asked a lot, you know, first of all, style does apply to everybody in many cases. I mean, we work with just as many men on their style as women or people of color. But make no mistake, it can be a little tougher in those areas because of the fact if we just take women, for example, there is a natural trade off. The research is clear that the more successful that women become, their likability factor often goes down somehow. We aren't rooting for the successful woman. The comments are, who does she think she is? Oh, she's so right. Or gosh, she's abrasive, she's difficult, wouldn't want to be with her in the meeting. And there's a level of it. It's harder for women in many cases to shoot to that right, that midd ground. So we don't shy away from it. We're not going to fix all biases and problems, but we are telling women to be careful a little bit more. So just so that they can still be absolutely who they are. But we want them to bring their strength as a leader, not have it be framed as, you know, that woman leader. We want it to just be as a leader. So what we might say is, absolutely, you need to disagree. You need to be able to negotiate hard for your promotions or your compensation. We would never tell them to stand down, but we might say even more important that you, you disagree a certain way. Even more important that you really show and engage in the warmth side of things so that when you Go powerful, you show balance. Or if it's the opposite side, you know, you're very warm, you're very engaging. People love being around you. But interesting how you're never invited to those two and three person meetings on the management team. They tend to happen without you. How do you step into that without calling them out and be considered abrasive? But how do you naturally, you know, make sure you're not excluded? So we will say the problem's the same for everybody, but that certainly it's highlighted a little bit more when women or people of color don't tend to display the same traits. Or really my favorite one, and this one most of us can relate to, it's how a woman will be labeled emotional. Like you're a little emotional. That person's emotional, she's drama. But the man is just intense. He's intense, he's dedicated, he's passionate. It's really the same behavior read a little differently perhaps because of gender. And that's usually the thing to overcome is to say, hey, I don't know if we can fix that today, but what we can fix is let's don't have you be read as emotional, but let's have you get your point across and let's help you do that.
- [19:06]
Kurt Nickish
How does the pandemic change all of this? I just think about so many people now working from home, so they are connecting with their managers over video conference.
- [19:16]
Suzanne Peterson
Right. And it's true. What does your style look like virtually? Does it translate virtually? Does this idea of how do you lean powerfully in a virtual environment? How do you lean more attractive in a virtual environment? A woman I was talking to, she in the background happened to have. Which was probably one of her children's, but it was a cereal bowl. But the angle of her camera, it was like Fruit Loops or something like that. That was just sitting there with the spoon in there. And the whole time I'm listening to her and she's brilliant and all I can look at is the cereal bowl.
- [19:45]
Kurt Nickish
It's like a newscaster when they have a crooked tie. You kind of lose track of what the news is.
- [19:50]
Suzanne Peterson
Yeah, yeah. You just can't help it. And so clearly she probably didn't mean for that one. But by the way, sometimes what you want is to say, listen, I'm this powerful and strong leader, and sometimes you don't see me that warm and engaging and I'm okay that my dog's gonna sit on my lap for a second and there's a cereal bowl and my kids Artwork on the back, maybe that's exactly what you need to draw people in. These are all style pieces, and there's a level of normality, but there is still when you go on, get on video and you say, you know, how do I want to show up? Gosh, am I trying to be deeply accessible and warm and, hey, life's a mess today. Well, then go for it. Or are you actually trying to say, listen, I made this meeting very important. I dressed for the occasion. I made sure the background and the lighting was right, because I'm projecting something else.
- [20:37]
Kurt Nickish
Suzanne, who out there is somebody that maybe a lot of listeners would have heard about or know that you think really bridges this divide between likability, attractiveness, and a powerful style really?
- [20:55]
Suzanne Peterson
Well, I think Roger Federer, the famous tennis player, not only are many people a fan of him because of his play, but clearly here you have someone who is deeply competent, very confident. You know, he's formal in many ways, how he dresses, right. His record is, you know, quite dominant. He has an intensity with when he plays. He's prepared, he's disciplined. All these tend to be power markers. But on the other hand, so engaging when he's interviewed, so humble, deeply appreciative, likable, seems to be very honest with his feelings when he's lost and how it's hurtful. So he tends to be notice, quite popular with so many. And I think it's this combination of great at his job, but also people really are drawn to him, and many of his opponents don't necessarily have that feeling. So he's one example that comes to mind. The other might be of Jacinda Ardern, the Prime Minister of New Zealand. First of all, she's the youngest female world leader. It was well publicized when she brought her young child to the un Right.
- [22:08]
Kurt Nickish
She was pregnant in office. Right?
- [22:10]
Suzanne Peterson
Pregnant in office. There's pictures of her walking barefoot. They call her out by her first name basis in her country, so there's a lot of informality and warmth there. But, gosh, you know, she's known for being very pointed. She asks the tough questions. If you watch her eye contact when she's speaking. She displays a lot of competence, quite articulate, very, I would say, a lot of declarative statements. So we could analyze her, but she's one that comes to mind that seems to play both sides of that coin as well. So those are just some models, you know, that, you know, we happen to think walk that line well.
- [22:48]
Kurt Nickish
Well, Suzanne, thanks so much for coming on the show to talk about your research and to help people with this.
- [22:54]
Suzanne Peterson
Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
- [23:01]
Hannah Bates
That was Suzanne Peterson in conversation with Kurt Nickish on the HBR IdeaCast. She's an associate professor of leadership at Thunderbird School of Global Management at Arizona State University University. We'll be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation about leadership from Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, be sure to leave us a review when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books, video with the world's top business and management experts. You'll find it all@hbr.org this episode was produced by Mary Dew, Ann Sani and me, Hannah Bates. Ian Fox is our editor. Music by Coma Media and special thanks to Rob Eckhart, Adam Buchholz, Maureen Hoch, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Kabaz, Nicole Smith, Ann Bartholomew and you, our listeners. See you next week.