How to Manage an Employee Who Gets on Your Nerves

Summary

Podcast Summary: HBR On Leadership — "How to Manage an Employee Who Gets on Your Nerves"

Release Date: November 20, 2024

Introduction

In the episode titled "How to Manage an Employee Who Gets on Your Nerves," Harvard Business Review's "HBR On Leadership" delves into the challenges managers face when dealing with difficult employees. Hosted by Alison Beard and Dan McGinn, the episode features psychologist Art Markman, a former professor at the University of Texas at Austin and the current Vice Provost for Academic Affairs. Markman provides actionable strategies and insights to help leaders navigate and mitigate interpersonal conflicts within their teams.

Key Challenges Discussed

1. Managing an Interrupting Subordinate
2. Addressing Overly Polite and Deferential Employees
3. Handling Passive-Aggressive Team Members

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1. Managing an Interrupting Subordinate

Listener's Concern: A new manager is struggling with a seasoned manager whose communication style is frustrating—constant interruptions, off-topic discussions, and a general lack of likability among team members.

Expert Insights:

• Focus on Specific Behaviors:

  • Art Markman (03:11): Emphasizes the importance of addressing specific behaviors rather than labeling the employee as "unlikable."

• Provide Constructive Feedback:

  • Encourage the manager to help the employee develop better listening skills by using tools like notepads during meetings to jot down thoughts instead of interrupting.

• Utilize Self-Monitoring Techniques:

  • Dan McGinn (08:15): Suggests recording conversations to help the employee become aware of their interrupting habits.

• Emphasize Active Listening:

  • Train the employee to listen actively and wait for natural pauses before contributing to discussions.

Notable Quotes:

• Art Markman (03:31): “The light bulb has to want to change.”
• Art Markman (07:21): “We're designed to do things, not to not do things.”

Strategies for Improvement:

• Notepad Usage: Encourage the employee to write down points during meetings to minimize verbal interruptions.
• Time-Boxing Contributions: Implement a rule where the employee speaks only after a natural break and keeps contributions concise (ideally under 40 seconds).
• Recording Meetings: Allow the employee to listen back to recorded conversations to self-assess and adjust their behavior.

2. Addressing Overly Polite and Deferential Employees

Listener's Concern: A manager is frustrated with an employee who is excessively polite and deferential, to the point of coming off as condescending and hindering effective communication.

Expert Insights:

• Understand Underlying Causes:

  • Art Markman (17:25): Highlights that the employee's politeness may stem from past experiences with negative authority figures or cultural conditioning.

• Build Self-Confidence:

  • Provide the employee with small victories to boost their confidence, such as acknowledging their contributions positively when they take initiative.

• Cultural Sensitivity:

  • Recognize that societal shifts towards heightened sensitivity may influence the employee's behavior, causing them to overcompensate in professional settings.

Notable Quotes:

• Art Markman (17:25): “This is a fascinating letter because he's being overly deferential.”
• Art Markman (20:10): “Give people some small victories.”

Strategies for Improvement:

• Positive Reinforcement: Acknowledge and thank the employee when they engage more assertively.
• Specific Behavioral Goals: Set clear, actionable steps for the employee to become more assertive, such as directly stating their questions without preambles.
• Scripted Responses: Provide the employee with language templates to express disagreement or assert their points without excessive politeness.

3. Handling Passive-Aggressive Team Members

Listener's Concern: A manager is dealing with a passive-aggressive subordinate who communicates indirectly through gossip chains, causing anxiety and uncertainty about the employee's true feelings and intentions.

Expert Insights:

• Establish Direct Communication Channels:

  • Art Markman (27:07): Advises the manager to communicate directly with the advisory board member involved to break the indirect communication loop.

• Self-Reflection for Managers:

  • Encourages managers to assess their own reactions and anxieties, which might inadvertently contribute to the passive-aggressive behavior.

• Document Interactions:

  • Keep a record of all coaching conversations and behavioral expectations to create a clear trail for future reference if behaviors do not improve.

Notable Quotes:

• Art Markman (32:14): “When you can begin to talk about how this makes you feel.”
• Art Markman (33:18): “Because in fact he can break through and change that behavior.”

Strategies for Improvement:

• Direct Dialogue: Initiate a conversation with the employee emphasizing the importance of direct communication and expressing a genuine desire to understand and resolve underlying issues.
• Addressing Higher-Ups: Engage with the advisory board member to ensure support for the new communication protocols.
• Focus on Development: Frame the conversation around the employee’s growth and the benefits of improved communication for their career progression.

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Expert Insights and Strategies

Active Listening and Self-Awareness: Art Markman underscores the necessity for employees to develop active listening skills. Managers can facilitate this by encouraging practices like note-taking during meetings and recording conversations for self-review.

Building Confidence Through Positive Reinforcement: For employees who are overly polite or deferential, fostering confidence through positive feedback and setting achievable goals can help them become more assertive without feeling threatened or undervalued.

Breaking Indirect Communication Loops: In cases of passive-aggressive behavior, establishing clear and direct communication channels is crucial. This may involve addressing not just the employee but also other stakeholders who may be inadvertently enabling indirect communication.

Focusing on Behavior, Not Personality: Across all scenarios, Markman emphasizes addressing specific behaviors rather than attributing negative traits to the employee’s personality. This approach fosters constructive dialogue and paves the way for meaningful improvements.

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Notable Quotes

• Art Markman (03:31): “The light bulb has to want to change.”
• Dan McGinn (08:15): “It's like watching an instant replay of yourself swinging a golf club.”
• Art Markman (17:25): “This is a fascinating letter because he's being overly deferential.”
• Art Markman (20:10): “Give people some small victories.”
• Art Markman (27:07): “It's not just you want to say to somebody, you know, nobody likes you.”
• Art Markman (32:56): “It's about your reaction to it rather than the accusation.”

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Conclusions and Takeaways

Managing employees who exhibit challenging behaviors requires a nuanced approach focused on specific behaviors rather than personal traits. Art Markman provides a framework that includes:

• Specificity in Feedback: Clearly identify and discuss the exact behaviors that need adjustment.
• Empathy and Understanding: Strive to understand the underlying causes of the employee’s behavior, whether they stem from past experiences, cultural factors, or personal insecurities.
• Actionable Strategies: Implement practical tools such as notepads, recorded meetings, positive reinforcement, and scripted responses to facilitate behavioral change.
• Direct Communication: Establish and maintain open lines of communication to prevent indirect or passive-aggressive interactions from taking root.
• Focus on Development: Frame conversations around the employee’s growth and the positive outcomes of improved behavior, fostering a supportive environment conducive to change.

By adopting these strategies, managers can transform challenging employee behaviors into opportunities for development, ultimately enhancing team dynamics and organizational effectiveness.

Transcript

[Alison Beard]

Asana is the number one AI work management platform. It's where work connects to company goals so your entire organization can move forward faster. Try for free [e-mail].

[Dan McGinn]

You know there's.

[Art Markman]

Another HBR podcast you might like.

[Dan McGinn]

Coaching Real Leaders takes you inside real life leadership coaching sessions. Host Muriel Wilkins has advised CEOs for nearly 20 years. Listen in as she helps guests work through their hardest career challenges.

[Art Markman]

Find new episodes of Coaching Real Leaders.

[Dan McGinn]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator]

Welcome to HBR on leadership case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts, hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. Does someone you manage get on your nerves, but you're not sure what to do about it? Managing different personalities, even those that irk you, is part of leadership. But psychologist Art Markman says dismissing these employees as simply annoying could keep you from communicating more constructively with them. Markman is a former professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin and now the school's vice provost for Academic Affairs. In this episode, he takes questions from listeners who are struggling to manage employees who are unlikable, overly polite, and passive aggressive. He offers advice for how to offer initial feedback and how to coach someone to help them improve their communication skills. This episode originally aired on Dear HBR in June 2018. Here it is.

[Dan McGinn]

Welcome to Dear HBR from Harvard Business Review. I'm Dan McGinn.

[Alison Beard]

And I'm Alison Beard. Work can be frustrating, but it doesn't have to be. The truth is that we don't have to let the tension, conflicts, and misunderstandings get us down. We can do something about them.

[Dan McGinn]

That's where Dear HBR comes in. We take your questions about workplace dilemmas and with the help of experts and insights from academic research, we help you move forward.

[Alison Beard]

Today we're talking about Annoying Subordinates with Art Markman. He's a professor of psychology at the University of Texas. He's also the co host of the podcast Two Guys on youn Head. Art, thanks so much for being on the show.

[Art Markman]

Oh, it is great to be here.

[Alison Beard]

So have you had an annoying subordinate yourself?

[Art Markman]

Well, you know, to me, the biggest problem that I have is people who won't tell me what's going on with them and then assume I will somehow that there's a problem and exactly what that problem is, and then are annoyed with me when I haven't. Even if I come out directly and say, okay, there appears to be something going on, that's probably over the years been my biggest frustration.

[Alison Beard]

And also you feel like it's gonna limit their own career, right?

[Art Markman]

Well, any good leader is trying to groom people for advancement in the future. And when you have people who get in their own way, it is incredibly frustrating.

[Dan McGinn]

How is it different when it's the boss who finds the subordinate's behavior annoying? How does that power dynamic change the sit?

[Art Markman]

Well, it does and it doesn't change it. You know, you're certainly in a position to coach someone, and I think people are more likely to take advice like that from someone that they work for. As I always like to say, the old joke is true. You know, we say, how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? And of course, the answer is one. But the light bulb has to want to change.

[Dan McGinn]

Ready for number one?

[Alison Beard]

Yep.

[Dan McGinn]

Dear HBR, I recently took over a 10 person team. One of my direct reports is challenging. He's a seasoned manager in his 40s. He's technically solid, dependable, and motivated. The issue is that his communication style is super frustrating. He interrupts constantly. Once he begins talking, he doesn't stop until you interrupt him back. After just two weeks as his manager, I gave him direct feedback. I told him that I expect him to not interrupt me. I told him to try to focus his conversation to the task at hand. It didn't work. It's not just me. Other people are avoiding interacting with him. For example, we were meeting with my boss the other day. The employee gave several fairly long responses that drifted off topic. I could see my boss getting frustrated and giving off body language to wrap it up, but my subordinate did not pick up on it. When I initially joined the team, he would tell me that he felt frustrated about not being in the loop. But no wonder people keep him out of things. It's becoming clear to me that they just don't enjoy being around him. I have no idea how to deal with this. I can work with him on not interrupting people and keeping his answers crisp. But how do I even bring up that he's not likable?

[Art Markman]

Well, first of all, we have to acknowledge we all know people like this, right? There are people who seem oblivious to what's going on around them socially. And, you know, the letter writer starts by saying, how do I even bring up that he's not likable? It's not so much you want to say to somebody, you know, nobody likes you.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah, I think that's a bad conversation to have.

[Art Markman]

It tends to kill the conversation early on. You know, the interesting thing about this particular letter, though, is that it feels to me like this guy is unlikable because he's socially awkward, rather than unlikable because he's combative. Right. So you can start by saying, look, you've expressed that your goal is to be more in the loop. So I've noticed a few things that are getting in your way of doing that, and I want to help you to develop some behaviors that will counteract that.

[Dan McGinn]

So it sounds like the unlikableness. It sounds like we need to get feedback from other employees on specifically what the issues are and break it down into something that there's an actual specific thing to improve on.

[Art Markman]

That's right. And I think that even in this letter, there's several examples of things that this supervisor has already noticed that he can use as the basis of initial feedback.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah, the several fairly long responses that drifted off topic, the fact that he didn't notice the higher up boss's body language to wrap it up, Those were definitely red flags to me. What did you notice, Art?

[Art Markman]

That the interruptions, the droning on and on and on, which means making the same point several times. All of those things are reasons why people would ultimately dread having to interact with this person.

[Alison Beard]

Right.

[Art Markman]

And those are the ones that you then have to begin to address specifically. Because what we know about the human action system is we're designed to do things, not to not do things. So we have to give him something to do. So let's think, for example, about the listening better and not interrupting. So the first thing we know about a lot of people's meeting behavior is that they only listen to other people long enough to figure out what they're going to say next, and then they stop listening.

[Alison Beard]

I hope we're not doing that.

[Art Markman]

Okay, I would let you know. So tell them. Look, come into every meeting with a notepad, and as soon as you think of something you want to say, write it down so you don't have to keep rehearsing it in your head, which then keeps you from listening to everything everybody else says. Because it may turn out that by the time you start speaking, somebody else has already addressed the thing you were going to say, in which case you don't need to say it again. Then give them a very simple rule. If someone else is speaking, do not say anything. Wait until there's a natural break in the conversation before you attempt to take the floor. So what you're doing is trying to train him to listen for the social breaks that occur, as opposed to cutting somebody off in mid sentence.

[Dan McGinn]

I sometimes have a tendency to interrupt people and I've tried to correct it. And one of the things that's helped me. It's just a byproduct of my job. I often have to have conversations with people where we're recording the conversation because we're going to write an article or write something based on it. When I re listen to them, I'm much more aware because I'm not in that moment. I'm an observer at that point. I can tell when I interrupt. I can kind of tell why I'm interrupting. Interrupting. I'm much more sensitive to the proportion of who's speaking when. So I wondered whether this guy could find some excuse to tape himself in a few conversations and go back. It's almost like watching an instant replay of yourself swinging a golf club. It helps you learn what you're doing wrong. He might learn something from that.

[Art Markman]

Yeah. Language happens in the moment, and so it's very hard to replay that in your own head. We're not designed to hold onto an exact memory of the way a conversation went. So being able to re listen to it, I think is extraordinarily important. And even if this employee can't articulate this is what I was hoping to accomplish, as he listens back to a tape of a conversation, he will at least be able to hear a little bit more of why he wasn't effective at communicating whatever point he was making at that time by listening both to the way that he starts that conversation as well as to the meandering element of what he says.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah.

[Dan McGinn]

So, Art, it sounds like this is not just a question of how he improves his speaking in meetings, but he has to become a much more active and developed listener.

[Art Markman]

That's right. One reason why he comes across as unfocused and as not really being on point is because he's not really listening to what it is that anybody else is saying.

[Alison Beard]

How does he then come back to the points that he wanted to make sort of throughout the. The meetings that he's attending? I just. Tactically, I'm trying to understand how it works because I understand the impulse to interrupt when you have something relevant to say. Yeah, I do it all the time.

[Art Markman]

Right. And so you've got to wait for that natural break in the conversation. Look at that list and put a little check mark against the one thing that is most important for you to say at this moment, and then stick to it. Right. And this is hard. Clearly. This is something that this guy does. He'll meander from topic to topic without really wrapping it up. And when you talk to him about that, about picking one thing, help him to understand that the reason that you want him to do that is because if he tries to talk about many things, whatever great points he's just made are going to get lost because he's running from one thing to the next. But if he just hammers home a single point and everyone is going to hear what he says, and everyone is going to remember the thing that he was talking about, and if he has to come back later in the conversation to bring up a second thing he can do that.

[Dan McGinn]

It reminds me a little bit of the process that they use to media coach people who are going to be talking heads on television. They need to learn to pick one point they're going to say and to say it in a fairly concise, almost a sound bite. There's no way you can go on and on on a television format. It almost seems like he needs a modified version of that to succeed in his meeting settings.

[Alison Beard]

It reminds me of the advice that Kurt, our excellent producer, gives us.

[Dan McGinn]

Not to talk more than 40 seconds. Yes, exactly.

[Art Markman]

And that's exactly it. So the other joy of having the tape of the conversation is that he can actually take a stopwatch to his turns. And if he goes on for, I would have said more than a minute, but more than 40 seconds, even better, then he's gone on too long and he needs to practice thinking through. Here's a point I wanted to make in a meeting. Let me actually write out how I wanted to say it and see if I can write it out in a single sentence or two sentences. Because another thing that happens to people is that they start speaking without really knowing what they want to say. And so what you're getting is a series of successive drafts from them as they figure out the point that they wanted to make online. And you have to listen to that whole process. And if he practices saying these things concisely, even if he's doing it offline, that will actually benefit him in conversations as well.

[Dan McGinn]

I don't know what I'm saying. I'm figuring it out as I go. That's a great point. And I hadn't thought about this until you said it, but I tend to email things instead of having conversations because I know I'm a little bit stronger than communicating that way. So it might be that he may be able to circumvent these meetings to a certain extent by saying, no, I'll just send you an email on that.

[Alison Beard]

I did. Sorry, I was listening to you. And how can I And you still.

[Dan McGinn]

Remember what you were gonna say or not?

[Alison Beard]

And I do, yeah.

[Dan McGinn]

Did you write it down?

[Alison Beard]

I didn't write it down. I should have. So we all agree that the boss should have a conversation with this employee. Do the other employees need coaching to accept this guy a little bit more as he is? Maybe not the interrupting, but did they need to be taught to be more accepting, even if he's not someone they would want to go have a beer with?

[Art Markman]

I'm not sure about that, actually, because in some ways, part of this development plan is also going to have to be becoming more aware of the social feedback in your environment to the extent that you basically say to everybody else, you know what? We got to cut this guy a break.

[Alison Beard]

But aren't there just people who are socially awkward, and there's sort of nothing you can do about it except be kind?

[Dan McGinn]

Are you thinking of anyone in particular?

[Alison Beard]

Not you, Dan. Don't worry.

[Art Markman]

Well, we're having an intervention now, Dan. It may be in the end that that's where we get to, but it's not clear that anyone's ever worked with this person on this before. Right. Even though he's in his 40s. We've actually ignored a lot of these human elements of things in the workplace for a long time. And so people can kind of drift from job, job to job without ever actually getting tactical feedback about how to improve their interactions. And so I'm not sure I'd want to lead with, well, let's just accept that this person is just never going to be someone you want to spend time with.

[Alison Beard]

So, Dan, what are we telling this boss?

[Dan McGinn]

So we think it's great that this boss wants to work with his subordinate to try to help him overcome these behaviors that are holding him back. We think there are are a few things that will help this interrupting problem. First, we think that he would benefit if they tape recorded some of their conversations and the subordinate listened back very closely, maybe even with a stopwatch. Is he jumping into the conversation when there are natural pauses? Is he speaking longer than a minute? He should be trained to bring a notebook into these meetings so that if he has something that he has the urge to jump in and say, he can write it down so he can hold that thought. Some of these are really basic behaviors to try to cure this interrupting problem. The broader problem of he's not liked by his colleagues on the team. We think if he can get a handle on this interrupting issue, that might go part of the way there. This will be a little bit of a Difficult conversation. But if the boss treats it as an opportunity for the subordinate to develop himself, to bring out his potential, potentially to advance in the organization, if he can get past these issues, that'll put it in a real positive frame.

[Alison Beard]

Onto the next letter. Dear hbr, I'm the manager of a three person team and I'm having trouble with one of them. It seems like he's always trying to be overly professional and polite. Honestly, it's too much. It can even come off as condescending. For example, I was recently chatting in my office with a colleague. When it was about time for my weekly check in with this employee, he came to the door. So I said goodbye to my co worker and she left. Even after it was just the two of us, he offered to come back another time. He apologized for scaring off my friend, as he put it. I told him he didn't scare anyone off and it was time for our meeting, so he wasn't interrupting. On another occasion, he came to my office with a question and I was in the middle of typing, but I stopped when he came in. He apologized for disturbing me and offered to wait while I finished my thoughts. I said it was no problem and tried to quickly turn to his question to show him that it really wasn't a bother. I get that he's trying to be respectful, but it's overkill and incredibly annoying. I'm not sure if others have the same opinion. Am I wrong to react this way? Should I keep it to myself? Or as his manager, should I coach him to stop doing it? What should I say?

[Art Markman]

This is a fun one. And I got a mental image of this employee of being on the younger side.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah. We also know from this letter writer that she's a woman. She's a female boss.

[Dan McGinn]

If the worst problem this female boss has is that her subordinate is just too damn nice, you know, there are worse problems, and this one totally seems solvable.

[Art Markman]

Right? So this is a fascinating letter because he's, you know, being overly deferential. And I think that there are a few intersecting pieces to this. Right. One is the possibility that in the past he's overcorrecting for a behavior in which he was more oblivious to other people's time or he had a boss.

[Alison Beard]

Who was terrible and mean and that's how he's learned to act.

[Art Markman]

Right. Sort of like a shelter puppy who's had a bad previous owner. And one of the things that that suggests is that this supervisor needs to address it with kindness, despite the fact that it's frustrating A second component, though, that I think is important is that we have to place this into the current cultural context. I mean, you know, if you look at social media right now, outrage is the emotion du jour. There are lots of examples of interactions between male and female employees where somebody says something that they meant in a neutral way, in ways that can cause tension as well. And I think that for people learning to navigate that environment, you can see how someone might inappropriately carry that deference into the workplace because they're just conditioned to, if I do anything that could be perceived as offensive, then there's going to be something that turns on me.

[Dan McGinn]

So there's confusion about the rules is what I'm hearing. And one of the things I thought about in this letter also was whether there were some cultural differences here. When I interact with people from other cultures, at times some of them call me sir repeatedly. Some cultures are much, much more polite.

[Alison Beard]

I think we all agree that sort of her first step is to think about why this person is acting this way and try to get less annoyed and more empathetic. I also think maybe it behooves her to gather a bit more information and see if it is just her. You know, surely she can observe him in interactions with other people.

[Art Markman]

Well, and one of the things she needs to pay attention not just to this deference over interruptions, but is this deference happening throughout his interactions, even if they're just happening with her. So if he defers to her opinion all the time, if he defers to her view about how things should be done, then she needs to help him to gain enough self confidence to actually have an interaction that will allow him to disagree every once in a while. Because that is career limiting. You know, being overly polite is a minor annoyance, but where it rises to the level of something that can actually stand in the way of someone's advancement is when they're not really willing to stand up for anything that they're interested in, anything that they believe should be done right.

[Alison Beard]

So how do you build someone's self confidence?

[Art Markman]

Well, I think you need to give people some small victories. So at that point where he just walks in and you're interrupted in something and he immediately begins speaking at the end of that interaction, say, I also want to thank you for just moving ahead with the conversation. And likewise, if he comes in and says, you know what, I'm a little bothered by this memo that we're planning to send to this client or whatever it is, after discussing that again, be sure to thank him for I'M glad you came to me with that. It's really important that we get your input. Your expertise really matters here.

[Alison Beard]

I love that you're suggesting, not necessarily starting with this sort of let's sit down and have a conversation about your behavior, but more, let me look at how I'm acting. The moment he comes in the room and does something polite, you know, she says that, she responds, it's no problem. But is it a it's no problem or is it a it's no problem? You know, is she expressing her annoyance with her body language and her tone of voice, which will probably just make him become more polite and more scared and more deferential?

[Art Markman]

Yeah.

[Dan McGinn]

Might be something that the boss is doing that's sort of inviting and triggering this behavior.

[Alison Beard]

Possibly.

[Art Markman]

And it may not be her. It could be past bosses, as we said, or it could just be the boss. I mean. So I must admit, you know, thinking back to my college career, which is receding rapidly into the past, I remember going to a professor's office hours for the first time and being so afraid of college faculty that I could barely catch my breath in having a conversation with them. And they seemed utterly oblivious to my distress. You know, I think I'm kind of a normal, approachable person. Right. So I forget that gulf between subordinate and more superordinate person.

[Dan McGinn]

My first internship when I was in college, I remember calling my boss on the first day Mr. So and so. Because I thought you just addressed adults like that. And everybody looked at me like I had three heads, like, why aren't you calling them by their first name? I didn't know what the rule was.

[Art Markman]

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. So it may very well be that he's got to just get used to what it means to have a boss who is actually approachable.

[Alison Beard]

What if she tries to modify her behavior, build his self confidence in subtle ways, and he still keeps being overly deferential, not just to her, but to other people in a way that's gonna damage his career. What should she do?

[Art Markman]

Great question. I think a lot of what she needs to do is to think about how do you help people to be really tactical about these very broad things you say. So if I say to you I want you to be less deferential and you don't know how to do that, then you're not going to change your behavior because you're not sure what to do. So one of the things that you need to do is to say, okay, so here are three specific things I want you to try. The next time you come into my office and I'm doing something, I want you to ignore the fact that I was doing something, you know, knock on the door. And when I look up and say yes, I just want you to state your question right. You know, and that's a very specific behavior, and I promise that I'll react well to that. Number two, when you have something that you want to say in a meeting that disagrees with someone else, you don't have to apologize to everybody that you're going to say something that disagrees. You can say. In addition, I'd like to add this point, right, and give people a script. Here's the language. And basically say, okay, here, let's pick a few situations in which you could be more assertive. And in those situations, here's the script I want you to follow.

[Dan McGinn]

It's like when someone says or like too much, they just need to become aware that they're doing it, recognize that it's not a helpful thing, and work over time, through practice and through the scripts you suggest to solve it. You can get better at it over time.

[Alison Beard]

It's so interesting because I didn't really identify with this question at all because I don't consider myself to be overly polite, and I feel like I'm not surrounded by people who are super deferential. But, Art, when you were talking, it made me think of the fact that I used to. Whenever anyone gave me a comp about my work, I would say, oh, well, you know, there were a lot of people who helped me, and I didn't work that hard on it. Or, you know, just I would sort of brush it off. And my boss coached me to say, I want you to start saying thank you. Like, just say thank you. And I've started doing that. And it is just that little simple thing that I feel like maybe will in the future enhance my career because I'm seen as more competent and sort of deserving of praise, I guess.

[Art Markman]

Yeah, yeah. And I think that this idea of learning the specific things that you need to do in these kinds of social situations is important because we often give people very general, very abstract advice, and then we're frustrated because they don't seem to be following it.

[Dan McGinn]

So, Alison, what are we telling this female boss?

[Alison Beard]

So I think as a first step, she should step back and understand why this annoying employee may be as polite as he is and just approach the situation with empathy and kindness. She should gather a little bit more information to determine whether this politeness is more of a Deference that will limit his career in the future. She should try to change the dynamic just in everyday interactions with body language and tone of voice and comments that build his confidence. And then if those sort of subtle cues don't work, she should have a direct coaching conversation with him, telling him that she really wants him to succeed in his career, and she sees this one aspect of his behavior as possibly limiting him. And then work on a tactical plan for getting him to be more assertive, being very specific about three things that she'd like him to do to improve.

[Dan McGinn]

Alison, you did that very well.

[Alison Beard]

Thank you.

[Dan McGinn]

It's working. The coaching is working. Dear hbr, One of my subordinates is extremely passive aggressive. She will not speak openly with me about any issues she's having at work. And that's even when I ask her directly if there's any way I can help with her workload. Instead, she utilizes an elaborate gossip chain, and two weeks after the fact, I'll find out that she had a problem. She also has the ear of one of my advisory board members. If something isn't resolved to her satisfaction, I may get a call about my leadership. I constantly feel like I'm in a fog of anxiety. I never know if this employee is upset or not. Nothing she does taken on its own is enough for a disciplinary action. But honestly, I just want to fire her. I'm tired of her antics. Please help.

[Art Markman]

I mean, this is one of the tough ones where you have somebody that you think you're trying to work with and they're not willing to come out and say something directly to you, but they're going to make an end run around you. One of the very first things that this person needs to do is to sit down with that member of the advisory board and explain that it's not helping his relationship with his supervisee to be getting the feedback in this indirect way and essentially to try to cut off that communication loop.

[Alison Beard]

It's interesting that you say, talk to the advisory board first before even the employee.

[Art Markman]

Well, there's a multifaceted strategy here. One of the things you have to do is to make it hard for the employee to get what they want through indirect means, because if I'm going to ask you to change your behavior, you're going to do your best to keep going back to doing what has worked for you in the past. So one of the things that's really important to do is to try to make sure that that behavior that has been working for you doesn't work anymore.

[Alison Beard]

The letter writer talks about an elaborate gossip chain. So does this outreach to higher ups in the organization need to expand beyond the specific advisory board member? I mean, should there be other managers that he's talking to and having the same conversations with about this employee?

[Art Markman]

Well, you know, the place that closes the loop is this advisory board member. And so I think starting there is probably the best thing, in part because, at least initially, you don't want to damage the reputation of an employee that you're having difficulty with, Particularly if this turns out to be something that can be fixed so that a year from now, actually this person is a model employee, because it's hard to unring that bell if you start telling people this person's a problem. So part of what you want to do is to try and talk just with the direct source at the moment, that is that advisory board member, and, and really try to work this out in a way where this employee then doesn't become labeled as a problem.

[Dan McGinn]

Presumably, this plan is going to involve some sort of a difficult conversation with a subordinate. How do you open this can of worms?

[Alison Beard]

I view his first step as to say, why does this employee act this way? Why is she conflict avoidant? Are my assumptions about her passive aggressive nature correct, or am I doing something that's causing her not to come to me?

[Art Markman]

Yeah, here I agree with Allison. One of the first things to do is to try to figure out exactly what's going on and to make sure that you don't step into a meeting where you immediately begin to accuse somebody of doing something without provocation. One of the other interesting lines in this letter that stands out to me is I constantly feel like I'm in a fog of anxiety. I don't know about you, but I occasionally have people who disagree with something that I'm doing and I may not be getting along with. I don't live in a fog of anxiety as a result of that. And so one of the other questions that this person needs to ask themselves before doing anything else is, why am I so anxious about this employee who I'm not getting along with?

[Alison Beard]

I feel that it was a symptom of the fact that he doesn't seem to have a strong network within the organization and he doesn't have these connections to board members that she does. So he feels, although he technically is in a position of power, that he's powerless in some way because he doesn't feel supported. It's important to understand how influence works in organizations and make sure that you have it absolutely.

[Art Markman]

And I think on top of that one of the things that he has to look at is, well, what is my reaction when somebody actually does make complaint to me? Because anyone who experiences a lot of anxiety when they're not getting along with people, well, this is somebody who, if you come to me and give me a complaint, my first reaction might not be to really take that seriously, to sit down with you and try and work through that. My first reaction might be to get defensive. And if so, well, then why would someone want to keep coming back to you? This anxiety may actually be creating part of the problem. And so if that's what's happening, then when this supervisor sits down with his employee, he needs to sit down and say, look, I realize that there are times you've come to me or we've had discussions in which I haven't reacted well, I need to work on that. But I need you to keep talking to me directly and not be making that end run around after that. Actually, questions can be really helpful to say, okay, so please tell me what's going on and give somebody an opportunity to state their side of it, because now, I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm trying to understand the situation, this.

[Dan McGinn]

Idea that things are only going to get worse if we talk about this, if I let the cat out of the bag. I think if you can condition the person to say, hey, terrible things aren't going to happen. If you tell me you're angry, that might be a key to maybe changing that behavior.

[Art Markman]

And then you can begin to talk about how this makes you feel. Right. So you're not saying you did this. What you're saying is, well, when I find out from the advisory board member that you have a problem, even though I tried to speak to you directly, I'm frustrated by that because I can't help you to grow as an employee, and I can't help make the workplace a better place for you if I don't really find out what's going on in a way where we can have a conversation about it. So it's, again, it's about your reaction to it rather than the accusation, which now at least provides an opportunity for a productive conversation.

[Alison Beard]

I think also, Art, you mentioned emphasizing that this is a developmental conversation and you really care about the person's growth and the team's performance. I feel like putting that at the start of the conversation. Just saying I want our relationship to improve, I really want you to succeed in this job might be another thing that he could do to just set the right tone.

[Dan McGinn]

I'm Gonna flat out disagree with you there. Because the letter writer, the letter says, I honestly want to fire her. He doesn't necessarily have her best interests at heart here. He's coming at this with some not positive motives.

[Alison Beard]

Right. But I think that he. It's fine, turn it around. He is not working well with his employee. She is well connected in the organization. If they don't continue to work well together, he will not succeed.

[Dan McGinn]

So he needs to stop wanting to fire her and actually develop some positive feelings before he can sort of positively coach her.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah, absolutely. And maybe even spend a little bit more time with her to figure out why she's acting this way.

[Art Markman]

You have to start with that orientation. Even on those days when seeing that person and knowing what they're capable of makes your skin crawl. Because if in fact he can break through and change that behavior, then he may have somebody who's actually an extraordinarily valuable employee there. And so you've got to start with that orientation and then take it from there.

[Alison Beard]

So what if he has this conversation and the behavior just continues? What does he do then?

[Art Markman]

Well, look, the joy of the HR process is when you sit down to develop somebody, you can begin to document these things. You can say, well, here's the goal that we set. The goal we set was we're going to have open conversation about problems. And so now if you document, well, lo and behold, I'm getting another problem third hand. Well, you know, now you're creating that trail that you can come back to somebody and say, okay, look, we've talked about trying to fix this and we're not having success with this. Let's try this again. But at some point, maybe you might be better suited in a role working elsewhere in the organization or perhaps elsewhere altogether.

[Dan McGinn]

Maybe we could take the unlikable interrupting guy and put him in a cube with the overly polite, apologetic guy from.

[Alison Beard]

The last letter and throw in the passive aggressive lady. So what are we telling this manager, Dan?

[Dan McGinn]

This manager really has to do two things. They need to open a direct line of communication with the employee. Communicate that, look, if there's a problem, I need to hear about it directly. I don't want to hear about it thirdhand two weeks later. There's only positive things are going to happen when you open up to me. There's not going to be negative conflict. I know that these conversations are going to be hard for you, but in order for you to advance and develop, this is really something you need to learn to do. He also needs to have a conversation with the advisory board member, make it clear that he has a plan for dealing with this issue and that he's looking for support from the advisory board member to stop this back channel avenue of communication. In all these conversations, it's important to focus on actions and behaviors, not impugn people with intentions or negative motivations for all this. And again, to focus on the idea that this is a developmental opportunity for the person to advance their career if they can cure this behavior that's holding them back.

[Art Markman]

I think we got it.

[Alison Beard]

Art. Thank you so much for helping us work through these listener problems today.

[Art Markman]

This was great fun. I'm glad we had a chance to talk about it.

[Narrator]

That was psychologist Art Markman in conversation with Alison beard and Dan McGinn on Dear HBR Markman was formerly a professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, and now he's the school's vice Provost for Academic Affairs. We'll be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation about leadership from Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, be sure to leave us a review. And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books and videos with the world's top business and management experts, you'll find it [e-mail] this episode was produced by Kurt Nickish and Sanny and me, Hannah Bates. Ian Fox is our editor. Music by Coma Media and special thanks to Maureen Hoch, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Kabaz, Nicole Smith, Ann Bartholomew, and you, our listener. See you next week.