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- [00:02]
Bonnie Hammer
Just promoted Wharton Executive Education's People Management for Emerging Leaders gives you tools to manage teams, projects and performance. Live online 6 weeks learn more at whartonemergingleaders.com.
- [00:26]
Alison Beard
Welcome to HBR on leadership, case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. Bonnie Hammer is the former vice chairman of NBCUniversal. But her role in the media industry wasn't always that glamorous. In fact, she's held just about every title there is in the television industry, from production assistant to producer to President. And if you don't know her name, you definitely know her work. Throughout the 2000s she led major networks like USA, Syfy, Bravo and Entertainment Tonight. Hammer is one of the most influential people in media. She joined host Alison beard on HBR IdeaCast in 2024 to reflect on her decades long career and what it takes to navigate and thrive in one of the most disrupted industries, media.
- [01:23]
Interviewer
So at the start of your career, were you looking for a job that would come with a lot of change and dynamism or. Or was it just something you had to figure out to survive in the industry?
- [01:33]
Bonnie Hammer
Let's just put it this way. At the start of my career I was looking for anything to do that gave me a paycheck. I had a passion that I started with which was photography, and I figured that somehow I'd make a living that way. So my first jobs out of college were working in a dark room at a commercial photography studio and it led me to a photo editing job and that was kind of boring too. I really worked at finding something with my passion until I tripped into a position that led me to a job which led me to a career. So I think the first one was giving up a dream that wasn't leading me anywhere and kind of what then became my philosophy in life. Following the opportunities. And my first opportunity wasn't exactly shining. I was the lowest grade production assistant on a kid's math TV show of public broadcasting in Boston, literally following a dog around the set and cleaning up his poop. I knew it was an opportunity. I was in a television studio and who knew what it could lead to? And I cleaned up the poop with a smile and realized from then on it was about attitude and following opportunities.
- [02:54]
Interviewer
So how did you identify those opportunities that you knew were going to lead you in the direction that the industry was also going?
- [03:03]
Bonnie Hammer
I didn't look at it towards leaning me to the opportunities that would help me grow. And I think that Is one of the obstacles in the way with, I think, a lot of young people trying to navigate the workplace. What I did was follow opportunities where I would learn, learn almost anything. New skills, how to do something I haven't done before, Meeting new people that I hadn't met before with the hope that one of those opportunities would lead me to the next step, as opposed to seeing it as a ladder where you climb rung by rung by rung to get up to the top. I think if you do that, especially these days when industry is changing so quickly, that the likelihood that that job, that position, or even that industry would still be there in 10 or 20 years is not realistic. So for me, it was taking on different things that at least sounded interesting or had a new skill set that I could lear, could broaden myself. And part of it was sometimes it was the only thing available. So do I not take it and do nothing and complain, or do I take it and just see where it leads me?
- [04:19]
Interviewer
And when you could see changes looming, you know, whether it was the rise of cable or the digitization of the industry, I think you went through seven mergers to become what is now NBCUniversal. What did you do to figure out those learning opportunities, but also places where you would be safe? You know, like, how did you try to stay ahead of the change?
- [04:44]
Bonnie Hammer
Well, I think first and foremost, what people have to do is not fear change. Change is going to come whether you want it or not, Whether you try to control it or not, your boat is going to be rocked. Whether you do it or. Or the ways do it, you're going to get wet. In our world, change is inevitable. So rather than waste time fearing it and complaining about it and being a naysayer, my gut has always been, embrace change. Because you have no control doing anything else. Yes, there's always a moment of, I can't believe this is happening again. And as you said, I've gone through seven corporate changes and eight different bosses and somehow still navigated my way through. So the first thing was embrace it, meaning it's here. What I have to do is figure out a way that I can fit into this new world, which means figuring out what their culture is. Doing your homework. Talking to people, Are they more creative than financial base? Are they more interested in the bottom line than a great hit? Do they give good feedback and criticism, or are they quiet and just watch? So understand what the culture is and try to accept that. Then basically try to figure out where the door is going to be open. Meaning what are Your skill sets, what have you done before? What do they need? And how can you fit into their world? And then try to talk to people, get advice on where and how you can fit into this new culture. The minute you become negative, the naysayer, they're not going to want you around. The minute you seem positive, optimistic, I want to learn. This is what I've done before. I'd love to fit into your world. Show me how it empowers the new powers that be to take you under their wing and want to help you, grow you, and have you be part of their new regime. That was my way. It was finding a door rather than walls and obstacles.
- [06:58]
Interviewer
Yeah. And I think what's so impressive is that you've done that not just when you were sort of a lowly production assistant, but you've done that when you were a really senior executive trying to figure out what a new regime would feel like and work like.
- [07:13]
Bonnie Hammer
Yes, it happens at every level. And in some ways it's easier when you're younger because you can fit in a lot of new areas. But. But once you have a style of management and you're in a much more senior position, embracing it can be more difficult because you've developed your own style. And will that style fit the new regime nine out of ten times? It can and it will. And I kind of joke that the reason I can be in a room is because I've been in so many rooms that I've figured out a way where the door is, where a window is, where a crack is, to figure out a way to fit in and join that new culture. It doesn't mean I'm not going to have a voice or I'm going to give up my voice or not be authentic to me or my style of management. It's just being open to figure out how my style can integrate with the new style, the new tone. I've still always remained Bonnie. I've still led my team, my people, in the same way, but I had to figure out how to translate their values, their bottom line, their definition of success, to all of my people so we could still have fun and do what we do, but have a translate in a way that they understand and get it.
- [08:41]
Interviewer
Was there ever a time during the industry ups and downs and the mergers when you were really worried about the future? And if so, how did you stay focused?
- [08:51]
Bonnie Hammer
You always worry about the future. People keep saying what's happening now in the business is the biggest change that's ever happened. AI is going to come in Companies are restructuring, getting smaller and smaller. The truth is that's happened from the get go. What happened with cable over the decades that I was lucky enough to be in it, we basically outdid broadcast in terms of revenue because we had two sources of revenue coming in. So we were making a lot more money than broadcast was making. Then everybody said, peacock or streamers at large, we're going to completely blow away linear tv. Guess what? We're all going to still survive it, but differently. And because I've been around so long, each decade, something else was surely going to kill something else. There'll always be something new, always be something threatening it, see what it is, learn about it, understand it, and then try to figure out how the two can co survive while you're navigating your way to see where it really ends up.
- [10:04]
Interviewer
So I do want to talk about NBC's entrance to streaming with Peacock. It's always difficult with new technology. You don't want to enter if it's not going to pan out. You don't want to be too early, but then you also don't want to be too late. And NBCUniversal did start a bit behind. So how did you approach that challenge as the person who was tasked with creating Peacock?
- [10:27]
Bonnie Hammer
Well, in hindsight, Steve Burke, Brian Roberts were right to wait. However, for the five years leading up to when we started, I and several other senior people within the NBCU family were pushing them to jump into streaming. We're late, we're late. We have to do it. Look what's going on in the world. And they kind of listened, but not really, until one day Steve said, okay, we're going to do this and I want you to lead the charges to at least launch it. And my reaction to him, other than me being one of several who were pushing it, was, why me? I am so not a technological buff. I'm a content creator and yes, I'm a leader. But I was very honest saying I this isn't my world. But I think the honesty was what led him to put me in the position because he knew I knew how to lead, he knew I knew content, and he also knew that I didn't need to be the smartest one in the room, that I will surround myself with people who knew a lot more than I did and let them teach me and help me grow a team that can launch it.
- [11:48]
Interviewer
Talk me through your process for making important decisions, whether it goes back to green lighting a show or hiring a key producer or making your own career move, like saying, sure I will take on launching this streaming channel. How do you weigh the pros and cons? Or consider information versus instinct?
- [12:09]
Bonnie Hammer
This has grown over time and the easiest way for me to describe it is the ABCs all the way to G of gut. I'll start with A. Analyze what are you trying to do? Where are you trying to get to? Whether it's a show or a career decision or anything else, and really take the time to figure out what it is you want and why. B is brainstorming, which is my favorite thing, because it's collaborative. Get a bunch of people together and talk about it. What we always did with every single show before we greenlit it. I had every one of my senior people, even people who had nothing to do with creative, sit in a room or read the script before they came in and we would brainstorm the good, the bad, what we like, what we didn't like, et cetera, to just see where people are coming out, then see, compare. What are you trying to do versus what has happened before, either in your life or other shows that were on other networks or other streamers before. Did it work? Why did it work? If it didn't work, why did it fail? D which I love as well. Find a devil's advocate. It is what most people do not do because most people don't want to hear negative stuff. Find somebody who is going to pick apart whatever you are choosing to do just to see where the holes are. It's not so they can talk you out of it. It's so at least they're going to give you a side of whatever you're deciding that might not be in your mind. And E is the effort that you put into what it is and finding the experts that are in that world. So you know what the red lights, green lights are in that decision. Someone who already has a job, someone who's already produced a show, somebody who is, you know, an expert in directing visual effects that you haven't done. F simple the facts. You know, you actually have to know the facts of what you're doing compared to what has come before. And then G is gut. You know, trust your gut, especially when you've been been in that world before, done what you've done before. So for me, it's using the two brains, the brain in your head and the brain in your stomach. And when together, you may not be guaranteed success, but you're definitely going to limit failure.
- [14:42]
Interviewer
So it sounds like also that gut instinct, even if you're operating in a completely new environment, there are Parts of your experience in different realms that will inform it in a really positive way?
- [14:55]
Bonnie Hammer
Well, absolutely. I have one. Once we were trying to do a show called Political Animals, which everybody on the team was absolutely positive was going to be a huge success. I'd had Sigourney Weaver and Ellen Burstyn. We had a great producer, we had a great director. We did none of the ABCs of gut checking other than check our gut. When we got the ratings, we were absolutely shocked because it did worse than any other show we had ever, ever done before. And. And the first thing I had to do, I owned, not my team, but I owned the failure. Wrote a note to my boss before the ratings were public, said, we are devastated. We have no idea how or why this happened. We're going to figure out what went wrong. But I just want to let you know before the ratings come in, officially, you know, we blew it. Just totally blew it. The other instance was a show where we all knew my entire team. The script did not fit USA network. It was a little too dark. Actor wasn't really known, but it was kind of interesting and quirky. Nothing about it fit what we wanted to do in usa, but the director, writer we thought was exceptional. The character involved was fabulous. And. And we made the decision consciously that nothing about this should fit on usa, but it is too good for any other network to get it. And we decided we are willing to take a calculated risk and do this. And what happened was this is Mr. Robot, which did incredibly well, was a huge success for usa. The conscious, calculated risk worked out and we were willing to fail if we had to because we knew all the ABCs all the way through gut of making that decision and we were willing to fail.
- [17:02]
Interviewer
And so the contrast with Political Animals is that you didn't do A through F, you just did G. Correct. You are this person who's, you know, risen to the very top of your industry. And that meant that you went from managing small teams to managing huge ones, like more than 2,000 people. So how did you figure out that transition? You know, you seem like you rely very much on interpersonal connection, you know, collaboration, team culture. How do you maintain all of that as your span of power increases and make all of those people, you know, who you're managing feel as comfortable as you are in managing change in a really difficult, dynamic industry?
- [17:48]
Bonnie Hammer
First you have to maintain the values you had when you were leading a smaller group, meaning collaboration, caring, empathy, creating a high bar for success, but having really good communication in that process. So it's Knowing what your brand or your culture is for managing your team and then teaching that to all your direct reports so they can push it down. There has to be consistency and an understanding. Some of the ways I helped do that. Once I got into larger teams and multiple channels that I was managing, I would do what I called breakfast with Bonnie once a month with probably about 20 in each breakfast, from executive assistants to directors. And we would sit in a room. I would do a very kind of fun, easy open. I would talk about at the moment what was going on, what was succeeding, what was not succeeding within our own world. And then I would open it up to questions. And I would literally say to people, this room is Vegas. Whatever happens here stays here. Nothing is going to go up to your direct boss or up to anybody higher in my room. I need to understand what's working and what's not working in our division. And I know you guys are truth tellers. So tell me what's happening, what's working, what's not, what messages are you getting? Do you feel comfortable? Do you feel like you're growing? I wanted to hear the truth. And eventually somebody would raise their hand and open up and tell me the truth of a problem that existed or an attitude or something that wasn't happening, that should happen. And I would learn about what's happening at the more junior levels so I could fix it, or at least I'd be aware of it, you know, because it wasn't bubbling up to my level, I didn't know about it. And I got to know a whole lot of people on the lower levels. And because I went through every single level getting to where I am, I appreciated everything that other people do on the lower levels that most people don't get are so important to the product. I did that for years and it worked incredibly well. So you have to articulate your values, people have to understand your culture, and you have to push those values down all the way to the entry level people as well. When you do that, people stay within that culture and want to stay and grow within your world for a long time.
- [20:39]
Interviewer
So it sounds like you're willing to hire people who have different leadership styles than you. What specifically do you look for to make sure they're going to be the kind of people who approach challenges the way you do?
- [20:54]
Bonnie Hammer
Well, I think often people hire people because of skill set or in the early stages because of degrees or the school they went to. Yes, skill set is important, Basic smarts, intelligence. But for me, it's a quality of a person when they come in, are they willing to listen or are they just going to babble about themselves? Do they give other people credit in the conversation you have with them, or do they take credit for themselves? I look for tone. I look for somebody who has some grace. I look for someone who I think can be trusted as a team member who's willing to collaborate. So listening rather than talking, asking smart questions, that shows they want to learn. All for me go way above any kind of degree or skill set experience.
- [21:56]
Interviewer
Yeah. And when you have team members that you don't see embracing change in the way you want them to, how do you give them critical feedback? What's the key to doing that?
- [22:09]
Bonnie Hammer
Well, Well, I think first and foremost you have to give that feedback. And I think oftentimes in the workplace, people watch, they judge, but don't necessarily have real conversations with those that work with and for them. And they may wait for the end of year review, but I don't think that's enough. You have to have the tough conversations with people who you think have the possibility to grow, and even those you might not think can grow, but you should give them another try to let them know what's going on or not going on. Ask them how are they doing? How do you think you're doing here and why? And then tell them, well, let me tell you how I see it. And I just want to help you learn and help you grow. And I don't believe people can grow without a little tough love and being told the truth. But it should come in a helpful, useful, positively tonal way.
- [23:11]
Interviewer
I feel like one real struggle for managers now is working with people who are very, very good at what they currently do, but need to learn something new. You know, for example, it's me. I'm an excellent editor. I'm a great podcast host, hopefully. And I need to learn genai. I need to learn these new technologies, but it's sort of easy for me to rest on my laurels. So how do you push those people who are great performers to do more and challenge themselves?
- [23:44]
Bonnie Hammer
First and foremost, I always look for those people who will raise their hands and say, I want to learn. I don't know anything about AI yet. And what's the best way to do it? It starts with a conversation that says, you're doing amazingly well. Everything I ask you to do within your skill set, your task, your title is great, but the world is changing. And I think for you to grow and I think for you to have a Runway within this world, this company, this Skillset that you've got to start reaching a little out of your comfort zone. And here's several ways in which you could do it. It's basically approaching that individual in a way that again, doesn't sound like, oh, my God, I'm going to lose my job if I don't learn this skill set, but in a way that is offering them the possibility. And if they jump at it, fabulous. If they don't, you can still give them a little nudge. But if they really don't take you up on it, then as a leader, as a boss, you have to realize what their limitation is.
- [25:00]
Interviewer
I just want to say, for the record, I attended a large language model lunch and learn this week, and I also went to a conference where I learned about all these AI tools. So I'm trying. What advice do you give young people who want careers in media or any other really fast changing industry today?
- [25:21]
Bonnie Hammer
My advice is to understand that you have to work at your worth to get what you want. That in order to stand out, you have to be seen. Which means coming in early, raising your hands for opportunities, staying late, not seeing anything beneath you, particularly in the first few years during those learning years.
- [25:47]
Interviewer
And yeah, a reminder that Bonnie Hammer picked up dog poo in her first job.
- [25:53]
Bonnie Hammer
Yeah. Yes. Did I complain to my friends and family? Of course I did. But when I showed up on the set, I did it with a smile and anything. They asked me, you know, to run out for three lattes, I did it knowing that if I was optimistic, if I was positive, they would want to have me around. And if you're positive, people are going to want to continue to have you around, then you have to perform. If you're asked to do something, do it. Do your homework, do it well. If you're going to miss a deadline, don't BS about it. Basically say, I'm not going to have it in on time. This is the reason. I'll definitely have it for you. Bye. And give a date. People have to trust you and. And then you have to master the skill set, whatever it is. Then raise your hand to learn as much as you can for opportunities outside of your skill set, even if you're not going to get extra pay for it, because that too will show people you have the energy, the eagerness, the desire to learn more. Make sure that you don't go into a situation pretending that you know what you can do if you can't do it. Ask questions, learn. Show people what you know and tell them what you don't. It's very hard to win back trust, but it's very easy to empower others to want to help you and teach you. I think it's important to, you know, remain humble, have humility, even along with confidence. You don't need entitlement and arrogance. That makes a huge difference in the middle part of your career in terms of how you navigate it. And, you know, once you get a little bit more senior, then it really is the ABCs have got in terms of how you grow and, you know, learning how winning is wonderful, but you also have to learn how to lose, learn from losing so that you can move forward and understand all that is is a learning experience. And it was an obstacle, but it's not a stop sign. It's not a dead end. Use it to challenge yourself, to find a way to win in a different way. And then ultimately it's just embracing change because it's going to come for you no matter what you do. So learn how to run towards it and embrace it.
- [28:18]
Interviewer
Well, Bonnie, that's such great advice. So many pearls of wisdom in this conversation and in the book. I really appreciate you coming on the show, Alison.
- [28:26]
Bonnie Hammer
Thank you for having me. I always enjoy talking with you.
- [28:33]
Alison Beard
That was NBCUniversal Vice Chairman Bonnie Hammer in conversation with Alison beard on HBR IdeaCast. Hammer is also the author of the book 15 Lies Women Are Told About Work and the Truth we need to Succeed. We'll be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation about leadership from Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, be sure to leave us a review. And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books and videos with the world's top business and management experts, you'll find it all@hbr.org Special thanks to Maureen Hoch, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Gabaz, Nicole Smith, Ann Bartholomew, and you, our listener. See you next week.