HBR On Leadership: Moving Beyond Either-Or Decision-Making

Host: Harvard Business Review
Guest: Jennifer Riel, co-author of Creating Great: A Leader’s Guide to Integrative Thinking, faculty at the Rotman School of Management
Date: September 24, 2025

Overview

This episode explores how leaders can move beyond the familiar “either-or” decision-making paradigm to make stronger, more innovative choices using integrative thinking. Guest Jennifer Riel demonstrates, with case studies from the film industry (including LEGO and the Toronto International Film Festival), how seeking better answers—rather than merely choosing between trade-offs—can drive organizations to superior outcomes. She also walks listeners through the four-stage methodology behind integrative thinking, offering practical advice for leaders facing intractable choices.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The LEGO Movie: A Case Study in Integrative Thinking

• Background (01:31–02:56): The LEGO Movie’s blockbuster success is contrasted with LEGO’s earlier failed film, Adventures of Clutch Powers, which prioritized strict brand control (with a “boring and not very successful” result).
• Main Dilemma (03:12–05:12):
  • Trade-off:
    • Maintain strict creative control (protect brand but stifle creativity)
    • Or, give filmmakers creative freedom (risk brand but enable a possibly great movie)
  • Most companies settle for a compromise or optimize for one side.
• LEGO's Solution (05:12–08:21):
  • CEO Jorgen Vig Knudstorp insisted on hiring great filmmakers—but asked those directors to immerse themselves with the most passionate LEGO fans before production.
  • This created a new, integrative answer: filmmakers were entrusted creatively, but also inspired to safeguard the brand from the inside.
  • Notable Insight: The filmmakers’ deep dive into fan culture led to movie plot points (e.g., the taboo against using glue among LEGO fans).
• Quote:

  “If I want great talent … they’re gonna have to have control … But if I'm gonna do that, I can ask for something that I believe is gonna make a better answer. … Spend time not with me, but with LEGO's most committed fanatical customers.” — Jennifer Riel (06:15)

2. What Organizations Usually Do

• Typical Response (08:21–09:43):
  • Companies commonly treat such choices as “optimization” problems, endlessly analyzing compromises or building an uninspiring “Frankenstein” consensus.
  • Riel argues that sometimes no existing option is acceptable and “making the trade-off is unacceptable.”
• Integrative Thinking Defined:
  • Leveraging the tension of opposing ideas (rather than compromising), with the belief that the creative process through disagreement leads to better, novel solutions.

3. Another Film Industry Example: Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF)

• Context (12:11–13:13):
  • TIFF, once an inclusive, unprofitable local festival, faced a choice: remain accessible or become exclusive like Cannes.
• Integrative Approach (13:14–15:13):
  • CEO Piers Handling asked: “Why even make that trade-off?”
  • By elevating the audience prize, TIFF harnessed the city’s diverse film fans as an asset, making the festival both inclusive and a market predictor for Oscar winners (e.g., Slumdog Millionaire, The King’s Speech).
• Quote:

  “We measure the success of our festival against many factors… the films, the audience reaction … talent that emerges … attention from the industry and the media.” — Piers Handling (13:18)

4. The Four-Stage Integrative Thinking Process

(15:14–18:19)

Stage 1: Define and Explore Opposing Models (15:16)

• Get clear about the real problem and why current options are unsatisfactory.
• Take two opposing approaches to their logical extremes and fall in love with each—recognizing what’s valuable in both.
• Quote:

  “Force yourself not to find the balance.” — Kurt Nikish (16:53)
  “Engineers do this … provoke new thinking.” — Jennifer Riel (17:04)

Stage 2: Hold Models in Tension (17:04–17:49)

• Examine the side-by-side models: Where do outcomes overlap? What are their true distinctions?
• Probe for new insight by seeing similarities and unique strengths.

Stage 3: Generate Possibilities (17:49–18:10)

• Ask: “What do I really value? Could I create something better that combines these assets?”
• Brainstorm several new answers, pushing past the original options.

Stage 4: Test and Iterate (18:10–18:19)

• Prototype new approaches, gather real-world feedback, and refine solutions progressively.

5. Common Pitfalls and Signals for Success

• Where Organizations Get Stuck (18:22–19:18):
  • Avoiding the process altogether and making default trade-offs.
  • Failing to immerse in both models equally.
  • Rushing through model comparison as a perfunctory checklist instead of engaging deeply.
  • Not allowing enough time for genuine creative tension.
• How to Know It's Working (19:18–20:46):
  • Emotional signals: developing “genuine affection for the two models,” encountering constructive complexity, and spotting new possibilities.
  • Progress is indicated by discovering solutions that feel meaningfully better than what you started with.
• Quote:

  “If you really are able to push yourself to have genuine affection for the two models … that is a good sign that it’s working.” — Jennifer Riel (19:30)
  “Some of it’s managerial judgment. If this were an algorithm, it wouldn’t be all that valuable to you … it’s a process…” — Jennifer Riel (20:36)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Settling vs. Creating:

  “Most companies would have done what LEGO did the first time … and be surprised when the movie's not very good… You end up producing the result that you were trying to avoid.” — Jennifer Riel (08:23)

• On Iterative Prototypes:

  “Can you actually test those prototypes as you roll them out?” — Jennifer Riel (18:16)

Key Timestamps

• 01:31 — Introduction of the LEGO Movie as a case study.
• 03:12 — The creative control dilemma at LEGO.
• 06:15 — LEGO’s integrative solution: filmmaker immersion.
• 12:11 — TIFF’s challenge and integrative approach.
• 15:16 — Jennifer Riel outlines the four-stage process.
• 19:18 — Discussion of emotional cues that indicate progress in this unfamiliar process.
• 20:46 — Episode close.

Tone & Takeaways

The episode is rich in illustrative storytelling and practical how-to, delivered with warmth and curiosity. Riel favors optimism and creativity—encouraging leaders to fall in love with tough problems and trust the process of holding tensions, rather than defaulting to compromise or trade-offs.

Summary

Rather than simply choosing between two unsatisfactory options or compromising, leaders can use integrative thinking to generate innovative solutions that transcend trade-offs. By thoroughly exploring opposing models, holding them in creative tension, seeking new combinations, and testing ideas iteratively, organizations can produce results that protect their core values and achieve breakthrough creative or business outcomes.