What It Really Takes to Be a Manager

Summary

HBR On Leadership: Episode Summary - "What It Really Takes to Be a Manager"

Podcast Information:

• Title: HBR On Leadership
• Host/Author: Harvard Business Review
• Description: Leadership isn’t a trait; it’s a set of skills. Whether you’re managing up or motivating a team, HBR On Leadership is your destination for insights and inspiration from the world’s top leadership practitioners and experts. Every Wednesday, the editors at the Harvard Business Review hand-pick case studies and conversations with global business leaders, management experts, and academics from across HBR to unlock the best in those around you.
• Episode: What It Really Takes to Be a Manager
• Release Date: September 25, 2024

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "What It Really Takes to Be a Manager," Ellen Van Osten, a professor at the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve University and co-author of Helping People Change, delves into the nuances of transitioning into managerial roles. Hosted by Alison Beard and Dan McGinn, the discussion revolves around real-life dilemmas faced by individuals aspiring to become managers, offering actionable advice and insights grounded in research and practical experience.

---

Case Study 1: Reluctant Academia - The Professor's Dilemma

Listener's Question: Dan McGinn presents a scenario involving a professor at a small university who is being pushed to become the department chair—a role that would shift his focus away from beloved teaching and research towards administration and bureaucracy. Despite his reluctance and the previous chairs' short tenures, his colleagues believe he is the only qualified candidate.

Key Discussions and Insights:

1. Understanding Management Material:

   • Ellen Van Osten ([02:43]): "Management material to me is really about having what it takes to be effective and successful in working with others. The manager's role fundamentally is about being able to connect with people and lead them to accomplish something."
   • Emphasizes that managerial skills can be developed rather than being innate.

2. Reframing the Decision:

   • Alison Beard ([05:52]): Suggests not viewing the decision as a binary "yes or no" but exploring alternative solutions such as limited tenure or redesigning the role to mitigate disliked aspects.

3. Negotiation and Role Redefinition:

   • Ellen Van Osten ([06:39]): Recommends having one-on-one conversations with peers to discuss department goals and possible redesigning of the chair's responsibilities to distribute burdensome tasks.

4. Consequences of Declining the Role:

   • Ellen Van Osten ([10:30]): Highlights the potential negative impact on departmental leadership and representation within the larger university system if the position remains unfilled.

5. Strategies for Decision-Making:

   • Alison Beard ([08:47]): Advocates for making the role "tolerable" for a limited period as a pragmatic approach.
   • Alison Beard ([09:56]): References Bruce Tulgan’s advice on handling requests thoughtfully, emphasizing the importance of due diligence and providing well-reasoned explanations if declining the role.

6. Potential Upsides of Accepting Management:

   • Dan McGinn ([11:23]): Shares anecdotal evidence where reluctant acceptance of a managerial role led to unexpected career growth and satisfaction.

7. Comprehensive Advice Summary:

   • Reframe the decision beyond binary choices.
   • Negotiate role terms and consider limited tenure.
   • Communicate openly with peers and superiors.
   • Recognize potential personal and departmental benefits.

Notable Quotes:

• Ellen Van Osten ([03:16]): "Management material is the kind of thing that one can develop, which is encouraging. Right? Gives us all hope."
• Alison Beard ([09:56]): "Bruce Tulgan would say every request that comes to you deserves consideration. So it should never be an immediate yes, and it should never be an immediate no."

---

Case Study 2: Managing Without Authority - Navigating Family Business Dynamics

Listener's Question: Dan McGinn introduces a situation where an individual has been effectively managing a team without the official title or authority in a family-run mortgage company. Despite his contributions and success, his relative, the branch manager, resists promoting him, citing vague reasons and possibly favoring financial incentives that discourage transparency.

Key Discussions and Insights:

1. Complexities of Family Businesses:

   • Ellen Van Osten ([26:38]): Highlights the intricate personal and professional dynamics inherent in family-run organizations, suggesting that these relationships add layers of complexity to promotions and role definitions.

2. Building a Professional Identity:

   • Ellen Van Osten ([28:11]): Recommends establishing a business-focused relationship with the branch manager to shift perceptions from familial ties to professional capabilities.

3. Strategic Conversations:

   • Dan McGinn ([33:19]): Advises initiating discussions about the future direction of the business and the listener’s potential role within that vision.
   • Ellen Van Osten ([30:53]): Encourages asking the branch manager actionable questions like, "What's one thing I need to do more of or do differently to be successful?"

4. Leveraging External Opportunities:

   • Ellen Van Osten ([20:11]): Suggests exploring opportunities outside the current organization to broaden horizons and potentially find roles better suited to his aspirations.

5. Enhancing the Resume and Professional Development:

   • Ellen Van Osten ([22:52]): Recommends self-assessment to identify skill gaps and pursue additional education or certifications to bolster management credentials.
   • Alison Beard ([24:09]): Emphasizes the value of transferable skills and encourages confidence in presenting a unique background as an asset.

6. Overcoming Age and Experience Barriers:

   • Alison Beard ([17:48]): Counters age-related insecurities by highlighting the advantages of maturity and experience, and the transferability of skills across industries.
   • Dan McGinn ([24:09]): Notes that in certain industries like government, age discrimination is less prevalent, suggesting a more favorable environment for experienced professionals.

7. Building a Compelling Narrative:

   • Ellen Van Osten ([21:33]): Advises preparing a narrative that clearly articulates contributions and impact, supplemented by strong references to overcome initial resume screenings.

Notable Quotes:

• Ellen Van Osten ([16:38]): "It's never too late to reach for your dreams."
• Alison Beard ([19:08]): "If she recognizes all those things and approaches this move with more confidence, it could help."

---

Conclusion

The episode underscores that becoming an effective manager is less about inherent traits and more about cultivating essential skills and navigating organizational dynamics thoughtfully. Ellen Van Osten, along with Alison Beard and Dan McGinn, emphasizes the importance of:

• Self-Assessment and Growth: Continuously developing managerial competencies and being open to learning.
• Strategic Communication: Engaging in meaningful dialogues with stakeholders to negotiate roles and responsibilities.
• Flexibility in Decision-Making: Considering creative solutions beyond binary choices to align personal aspirations with organizational needs.
• Leveraging Networks and External Opportunities: Building relationships and exploring roles outside the current organization to advance career goals.
• Confidence and Narrative Building: Presenting a well-articulated personal story that highlights unique strengths and contributions.

By addressing these areas, individuals can better navigate the challenges of transitioning into management roles, whether within academia, family businesses, or other organizational structures.

---

Notable Episode Quotes:

• Ellen Van Osten ([02:43]): "Management material to me is really about having what it takes to be effective and successful in working with others."
• Alison Beard ([05:52]): "Maybe one of the compromise areas is a limited tenure. Could he be willing to serve for a year, or does he feel like that's too much, even?"
• Ellen Van Osten ([16:38]): "It's never too late to reach for your dreams."

---

For more insights and discussions on leadership, subscribe to HBR On Leadership available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Share this episode with colleagues and friends to inspire effective leadership within your organizations.

Transcript

[Alison Beard]

Asana is the number one AI work management platform. It's where work connects to company goals so your entire organization can move forward faster. Try for free [e-mail].

[Dan McGinn]

You know there's.

[Alison Beard]

Another HBR podcast you might like. Coaching Real Leaders takes you inside real life leadership coaching Sessions.

[Dan McGinn]

Host Muriel Wilkins has advised CEOs for nearly 20 years. Listen in as she helps guests work through their hardest career challenges.

[Alison Beard]

Find new episodes of Coaching Real Leaders.

[Dan McGinn]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ellen Van Osten]

Welcome to HBR on leadership case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. Do you have what it takes to be a manager? Ellen Van Osten says managers aren't born. Van Osten is a professor at the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve and co author of the book Helping People Change. In this episode, she takes questions from listeners who are struggling to move into management. She offers advice for what to do when you've been tapped for a managerial role but don't want it, or if your supervisor is blocking you from earning the title of manager. She also has suggestions for how to make the move to manager, even if you only have informal management experience on your CV. This episode originally aired on Dear HBR in August 2020. Here it is.

[Dan McGinn]

Welcome to Dear HBR from Harvard Business Review. I'm Dan McGinn.

[Alison Beard]

And I'm Alison Beard. Work can be frustrating, but it doesn't have to be. We don't need to let the conflicts get us down.

[Dan McGinn]

That's where Dear HBR comes in. We take your questions, look at the research, talk to the experts, and help you move forward.

[Alison Beard]

Today we're talking about managers in the making with Ellen Van Osten. She's a professor at the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve University, and she's the co author of the book Helping People Coaching with Compassion for Lifelong Learning and Growth. Ellen, thanks so much for being on the show.

[Ellen Van Osten]

Oh, thanks Alison. It's really a joy to be with you and Dan today.

[Alison Beard]

So what does management material mean to you?

[Ellen Van Osten]

Management material to me is really about having what it takes to be effective and successful in working with others. The manager's role fundamentally is about being able to connect with people and lead them to accomplish something.

[Dan McGinn]

Is that. Is that phrase management material? Kind of a loaded phrase. It suggests almost a binary construction where either you are management material or you aren't management material.

[Ellen Van Osten]

It can be perceived that way, Dan and I think in some cases people like to think of it As a born manager, all the research is that management material is the kind of thing that one can develop, which is encouraging. Right? Gives us all hope. Knowing if you've got what it takes and knowing how to be more effective is something that requires ongoing intention, usually and effort.

[Dan McGinn]

Dear hbr, I'm a professor at a small university. I love my job and by all relevant metrics, my career is thriving. I'm well liked by colleagues and I'm popular with students. I see myself as a very productive member of the faculty and I believe others see me this way too. Here's the issue. I'm being pushed to become the chair of my department at my school. This is a middle management position. It involves bridging the gap between faculty members and university administrators. Accepting this position would decrease the aspects of the job that I love, teaching and research, while increasing aspects of the job that I detest. Meetings and bureaucracy. This is a voluntary position. I've told everyone who would listen that it's not the job for me. However, I'm the only qualified faculty member in my department who hasn't already served as the chair. My colleagues are suggesting that I really ought to take a turn. The last two chairs have quit after one year. They seemed really unhappy in the job. I can't help but feel I'd suffer the same fate. Should I just suck it up and take one for the team or should I stick to my guns and refuse this voluntary post?

[Ellen Van Osten]

This is a great question, Dan, and it's a great question because I think so many people can relate to being in this position. I've worked with others who are in sales positions and being asked to be the sales manager or engineers who are being kind of pushed to take on the role of manager of the engineering department. So very similar, even though the specifics are different. And this person is asking should I just suck it up and take one for the team or stick to my guns and refuse this voluntary post? So it sets up this a B, yes. No notion. So that would be my first thought is to open the possibilities up so that there are more than just one or two ways to move forward.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah, I completely agree. So I empathize with the letter writer that if you really enjoy aspects of your job that are hands on and individual work, being asked to become a bureaucrat is not a great position to be in. But at the same time, it does seem as if there's something of a rotation going on in his department. And so maybe one of the compromise areas is a limited tenure. Could he be willing to serve for a year, or does he feel like that's too much, even?

[Dan McGinn]

Alan, it sounds like you're suggesting don't approach this so much as a decision, but as a negotiation where you kind of come up with alternatives. What other options besides time limiting or saying yes or no would you come up with, or would you suggest?

[Ellen Van Osten]

Well, one of the things I would encourage the professor to do is have some conversations, one on one, with his peers, where he could talk about the overall goals of the department or the work of the department, and how the role of the chair supports that, but also gives him a chance in those conversations to be transparent and talk about the ways that he already contributes to the broader shared purpose of their work. And one option in addition to Allison, what you mentioned could be maybe splitting up aspects of the chair's responsibility. So maybe there's certain committees that the chair needs to serve on. There might be others in the department who could serve on those committees on behalf of the chair. But I think in dialogue, one on one with individuals, that would create some important connection around their kind of shared work and also engage people together in thinking about what's possible.

[Alison Beard]

I love the idea of trying to redesign the role because it seems like he's not the only person who doesn't want this job. So talking with administrators, talking with the rest of the family, faculty brainstorming ways in which this job can be made a better one for everyone. I like the idea of starting that conversation about how to make the job one that people will want to do, or at least not hate doing.

[Ellen Van Osten]

So, Alison, what really that brings up for me is, could he endure it? I love the phrase at least not hate the role. And that's also, I think, a possibility here is that if you could redesign it so it's tolerable for a short period of time, we could do a lot of things for 12 months, 18 months, 24 months.

[Dan McGinn]

Alison, I think you're editing an article right now on the art of saying no. Is there anything you've learned from that that would apply to the situation?

[Alison Beard]

Well, I think that Bruce Tolgan, who is the author of that piece, would say every request that comes to you deserves consideration. So it should never be an immediate yes, and it should never be an immediate no. And then he would say, you need to do your due diligence on exactly what's required. You know, our letter writer assumes that there will be a lot of meetings in bureaucracy. How true is that? You know, how many meetings is it a year? Is there any flexibility around that, and then if you decide that ultimately you want to say no, you need to give a well reasoned argument. So you need to say, I am respectfully turning down this opportunity because I have X, Y, Z research projects that are going to be so critical to the university's standing in our field. It's really important that I devote all my time to that. Something to explain why he's making the decision that will probably be quite unpopular.

[Dan McGinn]

Ellen, universities are unusual places in that professors often get tenure and have a lot more power to say no to things like this request, even though our listener seems to have the ability to say no. What would you advise them in terms of the fallout from doing that? And just because you have the power to do something, to avoid something like this, does that mean it's a good idea to do it?

[Ellen Van Osten]

Yeah, that is a great question. Dan. You are so on target that universities are kind of unique places, right? They're unique systems. I think the implications of that, that I would suggest he wants to think through would be the relationships he has with his peers in his own department and the implication for the department, because what happens if a department is left kind of without a leader is that the voice of the department becomes marginalized in the school or in the system that they're in. Those chairs meet with other chairs. The chairs often sit on appointments, committees. And so there is a potential missed opportunity for the department and by extension his peers and maybe even himself.

[Dan McGinn]

At a previous job, a bunch of years ago, I worked in a department that was a little bit like this one. We definitely were not tenured, but somebody needed to raise their hand to become the editor of the section. And there were a lot of downsides to the job and nobody was really enthusiastic about doing it. But eventually one of my friends reasoned that, hey, if one of us doesn't do it, they may hire somebody who's really bad and that will be painful and costly for all of us. So a little bit reluctantly, he raised his hand, got the job, and he ended up being surprised and loving it and doing really well at it. And he went from a writing career into a very successful editing career because he, he took the job to avoid some other bozo getting it. So I think you do need to think a little bit about the, the downside of a really bad person getting this post and the potential upside that you may surprise yourself and like it more than you think you would.

[Ellen Van Osten]

I have a similar story too. So there are often many benefits that are hard to see when we initially can't see a lot of the good things. But if we could think more openly and more in a balanced way about what the possibilities are, then we might be surprised.

[Alison Beard]

So Dan, what are we telling him?

[Dan McGinn]

First, we think he needs to reframe the question he's asking. He's very focused on this as a yes or no. Take one for the team or just stick to my guns and decline the position. We think there are a range of options in between. He might try to time limit the position. We think there might be an opportunity to job craft here, to redesign the position, handing off the parts of it that he finds less attractive or more onerous to other colleagues. We think he needs to be aware that even if he does have tenure and has the right and the power to say no, that there could be costs to saying no. The department standing could go down if he does decide to say no. We think that taking advice from Bruce Tolgan would make a lot of sense. Deliberate over it, do your due diligence and then make a well reasoned, well crafted argument that explains exactly why you're declining. And finally, if he does decide to go into this, be aware that he may surprise himself and there may be unexpected upsides. There's certainly lots of people who take battlefield promotions or become a manager somewhat reluctantly who end up thriving and end up enjoying parts of the job. So don't count that as out as a possibility.

[Alison Beard]

Asana is the number one AI work management platform. It's where work connects across across every department. Even in the most complex organizations. Asana is where AI is seamlessly intertwined with every project, team and goal. Try for free [e-mail] that's asana.com Dear HBR, I've worked in local government in Australia for 13 years. I took a major turn when I moved out of a 20 year marketing and communications career into policy development and governance. I'm a natural at IT and have transformed our department and the organization's approach. I get lots of great feedback from my boss and my peers. After two years I have demonstrable runs on the board and I do a lot of informal management whenever I get the opportunity. Here's the problem. I'm 50 years old and have made lots of sideways moves, often because I've had to follow my spouse around. The last time I managed a team was quite some time ago, but I really want to take a step up to a more senior position. Unfortunately, opportunities in my organization are limited. Many bosses are rusted on until they retire. I told my employer about my ambitions and was Encouraged to apply for roles that come up, but they are few and far between, especially during the pandemic and I'm feeling my age and the competition of younger candidates with more recent and more formal manager experience on their resumes. Did I wait too long to make a run at this? Was my mid career switch a mistake? What can I do?

[Ellen Van Osten]

This one really hits home. Alison, this letter writer really is a great example of something that all of us can suffer from at different times, and that is to think that it's too late, to think that something, some opportunity has passed us by. It's never too late to reach for your dreams. However, it does mean, given the context in the situation, that it's likely to require some additional thinking and effort, maybe some steps on her part to be able to reach those dreams. But right out of the gate, I would focus in on what it is that you really would love to do.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah, Ellen, that was my immediate instinct too. She seems to be really thriving in this new organization and role and it's exciting that she wants to move up and take on more responsibility. The question is, with limited opportunities, how does she do it? So what are some of those steps that you think she should take?

[Ellen Van Osten]

Yeah, I think Alison, it always starts off with mindset. So she's very aware of her age and age is kind of where we are. We can't really change it. Right. So I would ask the question, how can you turn that into a strength? She has the maturity that younger professionals don't. From her experience, she's also demonstrated her commitment and enthusiasm, which employers die for. So instead of focusing on the past and what she wasn't able to do, for whatever reasons, focus on the future and what she really hopes and aspires to accomplish. However winding the path has been, I.

[Dan McGinn]

Wonder if it's important that she's working in government. We think of the tech industry as a place that is a little bit notorious for age discrimination and for thinking that young workers are better workers. So I wonder if her views about her age should be tempered a little bit because she's in an industry, industry that historically has been pretty favorable for older people.

[Alison Beard]

You're both making excellent points on the age issue. 50 is not ancient. It's not close to retirement if you plan to work into your 70s. And she does have a lot of experience in marketing and communications and collaborating with people and leading informally. The other thing is we are in this world where everyone acknowledges skills are transferable from one industry to another. Claudio Fernandez Arous, one of our frequent contributors Wrote a post about why he likes unconventional resumes. Sometimes when you've done things outside of the industry or even the function that everyone else has been in, it allows you to sort of bring a more innovative mindset and more energy to the job. So I think that if she recognizes all those things and approaches this move, you know, her candidacy with more confidence, it could help. No one's told her that she's out of the running. In fact, her boss told her to apply. The problem is that there aren't many roles, but the roles are coming and she should go for them and not be afraid of all these younger candidates who, you know, might outshine her because they tick the boxes. She can go in and prove that she has something different and better to offer.

[Ellen Van Osten]

I think you're so right on target, Alison. Which brings me to another thing that I think she would need to, like, naturally do next to network. And she's obviously talked to her manager already and has gotten some positive feedback, as you mentioned, Alison, I would encourage her now to open that up and be intentional about identifying others who are in roles that are exciting for her, that she could see herself aspiring to do or to be in and to seek them out and schedule meetings with them. And the meetings I would encourage, she approaches those as informational interviews. Connecting with people and having conversations on an ongoing basis may surprise her in terms of what kind of opportunities could emerge.

[Dan McGinn]

Ellen, should she be spending more time looking outside of her own organization to try to find opportunities?

[Ellen Van Osten]

You know, I don't think more time would be the key, Dan, But I do think sometime for sure, because there's natural constraints. Because it sounds like there's not a lot of open opportunities currently and might not be in the near future, she owes it to herself to at least kind of cast a wider net and explore possibilities outside of the organization. That might also help build her confidence, too, and it might help her see how her kind of unique background, maybe unconventional background, sets herself up well to be successful in a different organization or in a different context. So, yeah, I think that's a really good point and definitely something for her to consider.

[Alison Beard]

I think her hesitation is that these people who she works with now know her and know her strengths and her skills and probably know that she could be a manager and is ready to do so when the right opportunity comes up. Whereas outside people only really look at her resume. She might not even get through the door because she doesn't have that team leader experience. If she starts going for these external opportunities and someone says, wait, but you don't have management experience. What should she say?

[Ellen Van Osten]

That's always a tricky and sometimes uncomfortable spot to be in. I can empathize with her for sure, but I think she does have the experience. She has a story to tell that's a great story. And part of her preparation for those conversations would need to be to clarify the work that she has done. Maybe prove it to herself, actually, so that she can articulate it clearly. Three or four particular things she's done and the impact that they've had. Another would be to get referrals, folks who would speak on her behalf, which is pretty common, right. If she could not only have references ready, but have references that might even write a letter that she could submit with her resume or application materials, that might help get her past kind of an initial screen where somebody might look at a resume and not see an actual title of manager and be kind of quick to set it aside as a result. So couple things to consider that might help her with that particular situation.

[Dan McGinn]

Is there anything else she can do to bolster her resume for this bid, whether it's internal or external?

[Ellen Van Osten]

I think there's one other big area that she'd benefit from focusing on Dan, and it's to take an honest look at herself, kind of hold the mirror up, so to speak, and assess her capabilities. Does she have the knowledge and the skill skills to be able to be viewed as having the management material to be successful? It's possible and probably likely that there's some knowledge areas that she might need to shore up on or skills that need to be further developed. And the good thing about kind of the pandemic is that there's a lot of opportunities to learn online. So we have access, actually to a lot of great courses and workshops and podcasts like this and other resources that can help her. And that's the kind of thing that if she could invest in that for herself, but also then be able to communicate and convey that to hiring managers, it shows that she is a lifelong learner and willing to continue to develop and grow, and it's hard to be able to teach that. So that kind of speaks for itself as a quality that managers need to possess to be successful going forward.

[Dan McGinn]

Great. Allison, what's her summary?

[Alison Beard]

So, first, we want to assure her that it's not too late. She is happy and thriving and wants to move up, and we think that she should continue to follow that dream. We'd encourage her to change her mindset about her age. She does have experience and maturity that younger colleagues don't have and about her industry switch. Because her skills are transferable, we want to see her adopt a growth mindset and to move in the right direction. We suggest networking, being intentional about connecting with others and roles that she would like to have, and figuring out what management looks like in this organization. Then build the knowledge and skills that she needs to be seen as successful if she doesn't have them already. She could also look outside her agency, but if she does, she just needs to be ready to tell her story and line up references that explain why her past and informal management experience is relevant to the job she wants.

[Dan McGinn]

Dear hbr, for the past two years I've been what some people call a stupid visor. I've been managing a team without the title or authority. I work at a mortgage company where a relative is my branch manager. He recruited me away from a startup and I came in as a sales assistant five years ago. My official title is still assistant, even though I mentor, train, and hold my sales agents accountable. My pay structure is similar to managers in other industries where I receive overrides on everything my sales team does. My relative has told me multiple times that I'm not ready for a management role, although when I ask what skills I'm lacking, he's never specific in his answers. I don't know why I'm being snubbed. Maybe it's greed. Managers aren't paid on a flat commission base. Instead, they get to keep whatever profits are left over in the branch accounts after expenses are paid. They control the P and LS and they're kept secret from everyone. They could be making anything from 0 to $100,000 per month. If I were officially the manager of my team, my relative would earn less. There's no incentive for him to promote me, but maybe it's another issue. I worry that he's having a tough time envisioning me as a manager because he knew me as a child before I was well educated and profess. It feels as though no matter how much I accomplish, I will still be his younger relative. Is there a way to overcome this? Should I get an MBA to prove without a shadow of a doubt that I have management capabilities? Or should I make a lateral move to a new company where there are more promising opportunities for advancement?

[Ellen Van Osten]

Well, right out of the gate, Dan, I think family businesses are loaded with lots of complexities. So this letter writer is dealing with a couple of challenges, right? You've got potentially a financial incentive system is stacked against him and seems pretty plausible. You know, it could be happening but then also there's this dynamic where his relative is the branch manager. I would encourage that he sets out to have some conversation over a period of time. Not just one, but a couple. Finding out, like, from the branch manager, where he sees the business going. So engaging in a different kind of conversation with this relative in another conversation, he could then bring back some ideas. And then lastly, where those conversations ideally could move him to is to be able to open up a discussion where he says, hey, I really, you know, I'm excited by where the organization's going. And also, here's the ways that, you know, I would envision being able to contribute in the future. Do you see a role for me? So it's not avoiding kind of the hard question, but it sounds like he has to first establish a different kind of relationship. So the branch manager sees him as a business person, not just kind of the child that he was at the family picnic. What do you guys think about that as a starting point?

[Alison Beard]

Yeah. So it's interesting that you're suggesting that, Ellen, because from my perspective, our letter writer is saying, look, I've already proven myself. I mentor, train, manage all these sales agents. I am a manager, and I want to be recognized for that work I'm already doing. So I get your point that he can't just come in and say, I deserve a promotion. Give me a promotion. You know, it has to be a more collaborative conversation than that. But at the same time, I feel like he has proven himself to some degree and is still stymied. So how do you recommend he overcome that? You know, he suggests getting an mba, making a lateral move. Are there any other options that you see for him?

[Ellen Van Osten]

Well, continuing his education, getting an MBA or pursuing some additional certifications, all of that is important to do, regardless. I think an interesting point about this that he makes that caught my attention is that should he do this to prove it to his relative, the branch manager, my response to that is he should do that, seeking additional education and furthering his own development to prove it to himself. While I agree with you, Allison, from what we know, he certainly is on a great track and having some good impact and doing some great things. He might be suffering from a confidence issue, which would be understandable because the branch manager is not good giving him any sort of recognition. Right. So that's one. But I think the elephant in the room which you're addressing is that he has been doing good work and he is not getting recognition, but actually, he's not even getting headway with this relative. The Branch manager. So another option would be to address that a little more directly. Right. And if there's one question, I often call it, like the million dollar question that our letter writer could ask, it would be, what's one thing I need to do more of or do differently to be successful? And once I demonstrate that, what doors open for me here, so it tends to be generative, it opens up discussion as opposed to kind of closing the door. You know, like, this is what I'm doing and I deserve this, and if you don't give it to me, I'm leaving kind of thing, which is what I would not recommend in this situation.

[Dan McGinn]

As I listen, Ellen and Allison, as I listen to the two of you, it seems like there's sort of a different orientation in the sense of should we look backward at what the person has done and why that existing track record should be sufficient to get the listener the promotion now, or should we look towards the future?

[Alison Beard]

Honestly, I think he should just get out of this organization. I think the incentive structure is super weird. I think that the relationship with his relative is always going to be an issue. And he's gotten some great experience, even though he hasn't gotten a title. And just like we told our last letter writer, he can apply for the kind of jobs he wants at other organizations and talk about all the experience that he's gotten at this mortgage company.

[Ellen Van Osten]

So that really working with family is inherently difficult. And so on one hand, will this ever change? Who knows? It's very likely that it may not, because you've got personal dynamics, family dynamics, beyond kind of just what we all deal with in our businesses and in organizational life. So if some of those are insurmountable, which sounds like it might be, then I can't say I disagree. However, I am a bit of an optimist, or at least I think he owes it to himself to open up a dialogue with this person, if nothing else, to get some practice being able to reflect and articulate the kinds of things that he is doing and has been doing in the ways that they are contributing and to see if the branch manager will at least respond to him and give him some more concrete feedback. And if nothing else, I think he does also owe it to himself to explore opportunities outside of the organization, but to be upfront about that in the conversation. And if there's nothing there for him in the next 12 to 18 months or 24 months, then I think the writing is for sure on the wall. But then everybody kind of agrees to that, and it might be just time to kind of move on.

[Alison Beard]

Dan, what's our summary?

[Dan McGinn]

So we think this is a complicated situation, which is not unusual with family businesses. You've got relationships that go back many years, even into childhood. You've got a weird financial structure. We think that this listener needs to have a couple of conversations with the branch manager. First, talk about the future of the business broadly. Don't focus just on his own situation, but more is the business going to grow? How has it changed? What capabilities might it need in the future? Then maybe in a subsequent conversation, talk about the individual possibilities for the listener directly. Might there be a role for him down the line that's bigger than the one now? Ask that question, what can I do more of or do differently to try to be more successful here? And listen very carefully to the answer. If there is no answer, which is basically how the branch manager has responded to this in the past, that may be a strong sign that it it's time to explore other opportunities. This listener should be confident. He's developed some great skills, he has some great experience, and he'll have a good story to tell to a future employer.

[Alison Beard]

Ellen, thanks so much for coming on the show.

[Ellen Van Osten]

Thanks, Alison. This has really been a lot of fun.

That was Ellen Van Osten in conversation with Alison Beard and Dan Mc again on Dear hbr. She's a professor at the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve and co author of the book Helping People Change. We'll be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation about leadership from the Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, be sure to leave us a review and when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books and videos with the world's top business and management experts, you'll find it [e-mail] this episode was produced by Kurt Nickish and Sanni and me, Hannah Bates. Ian Fox is our editor. Music by Coma Media. Special thanks to Maureen Hoch, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Kabaz, Nicole Smith, Ann Bartholomew and you, our listener. See you next week.