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- [00:02]
Rovo/Atlassian Representative
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- [00:44]
Amanda Kersey
Welcome to HBR on leadership case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. I'm HBR Senior Editor and Producer Amanda Kersey. Serving on a board can expand your influence, strengthen your leadership skills, and even open doors to bigger opportunities. But getting that first seat and figuring out how to contribute once you're there can feel daunting. In this episode of Women at Work, you'll hear from eight women about how they stepped onto boards, what they learned in the process, and how the experience shaped their careers. You'll also get perspective from Ellen Zane, the former CEO of Tufts Medical center who now sits on multiple boards. Here's host Amy Bernstein.
- [01:38]
Amy Bernstein
Have you ever thought about joining a board? Research suggests women's presence improves the decisions these groups make and in turn improves financial performance. Being on a corporate board gives you a say in how the business is run, including how it treats employees and customers. If you're a senior executive, experience on a public or private company board boosts your CEO eligibility. If that's a goal of yours, being on a nonprofit board is where many directors get their start or stay. It's a chance to stretch your mind, your skills, your network. It's a way to have an impact on your neighborhood or your alma mater or your industry. But maybe you haven't thought about serving because it sounds like another suck on your time or the benefits aren't clear, or you were waiting for retirement, or you just didn't know enough to dive in, or no one asked you. Well, let's test those assumptions and fill in some gaps. Eight women volunteered to tell us how they landed a board seat, gained confidence there, and grew personally and professionally. I hope their perspectives round out your sense of what the work is and that they inspire you to sooner or later try it for yourself. And if you're doubting your qualifications, lani Hollander, one of our volunteers, will tell you. Just don't.
- [03:03]
Lani Hollander
I think, especially if you're getting started with a smaller nonprofit board, the main thing that matters really is passion.
- [03:09]
Amy Bernstein
An interesting passion and interest is how in 2019, Lani got invited to join a board. Although networking was key and getting A master's in nonprofit management must have given her a leg up. The invitation came from the executive director of a humanitarian organization in Thailand, whom she'd known for several years. Back in 2015, Lanny worked for a different humanitarian organization and the two partnered on programming. They got along so well that after Lanny left that job, they kept in touch through regular calls. During one of those calls, it became.
- [03:47]
Lani Hollander
Apparent that their board needed some new people to join, that they were looking to recruit. It really felt natural for me to get involved, and I felt that I had skills, especially working in the nonprofit sector for over a decade at that point, specifically within small nonprofits, like nonprofits with $300,000 of annual revenue or less, I felt that I could contribute as a board member.
- [04:09]
Amy Bernstein
The role suited her. She went from participating in meetings to preparing the agendas, to suggesting the group reelect officers, to becoming its chair.
- [04:19]
Lani Hollander
I always felt really included. I always felt like I was able to express my opinion or make a point. And there was incredibly good rapport and communication among everyone. And so I think that that created a space for people to show up as themselves, to communicate without fear of judgment, to be compassionate, and to make space for one another.
- [04:44]
Amy Bernstein
She stepped down at the end of 2022.
- [04:47]
Lani Hollander
And that's mostly just because I work. My life has changed a lot. I got married, I became a mom. My daughter just turned two. So it's really just more of like a personal capacity thing.
- [04:57]
Amy Bernstein
For now, she keeps a list of nonprofits to approach when she's ready to jump back in. I'm also considering jumping back in. About 20 years ago, I joined the board of a non profit women's journalism group. And a few years later, I led the board of a friend's nonprofit. The two organizations could not have been more different and their meetings could not have been more different. But in both cases, I was flying absolutely blind. I didn't know the rules and I wasn't sure what was expected of me. Getting up to speed was really hard and so humbling. Now, all these years later, I've had a couple of decades more experience. I've been in senior leadership roles. I've led large teams and complicated projects. And I've been thinking about boards again. And if I join another board, yeah, I will definitely be a lot better prepared. Partly because of that experience and partly because of this episode, Ellen Zane is here with me to give context and more insight as we hear from those eight volunteers. In her last day job, she was CEO of Tufts Medical Center, a position she held until she retired in 2011, only to ramp up her career on boards. Right now, she's on many. They're a mix of public, private, private equity and not for profit. And on top of all that, she directs the Women on Boards program within Harvard School of Public Health. That program prepares executives, and not just those from healthcare, to become directors themselves. So, Ellen, thank you so much for being with us today.
- [07:03]
Ellen Zane
Thank you for inviting me.
- [07:05]
Amy Bernstein
How did you get into the whole board business?
- [07:08]
Ellen Zane
A lot of it is serendipity. When I announced that I was stepping down as the CEO at Tufts Medical center, shockingly and unexpectedly, my phone started to ring and there were a lot of boards looking for women to assume in the corporate board area. But all boards position. Healthcare is such a large sector, whether it's life sciences or healthcare provision, insurance technology, medical technology, pharmaceuticals. So there were many, many opportunities. And the truth is, my first six months after I stepped down, I was flying around the country interviewing these companies, telling them all, I can't do it all. But it turned out to be an incredible opportunity because there is a huge need.
- [08:00]
Amy Bernstein
So, you know, it was the serendipity of your stepping down as CEO of Tufts Medical center, which means that you were already very prominent in your field. Why did it take the trigger of your retirement from Tufts?
- [08:18]
Ellen Zane
First of all, I was on one public company board while I was working. But there are rules through the SEC and other areas where typically full time executives don't sit on more than one for profit board. So once you step down, the assumption is that you have more time. So when you step down, that's when they come calling, typically, at least on the for profit side.
- [08:48]
Amy Bernstein
On the for profit side. And you had served on a nonprofit board before?
- [08:53]
Ellen Zane
Several. I had been on university boards and some other nonprofits as well, including the hospital on the campus of the National Institutes of Health in Washington.
- [09:03]
Amy Bernstein
Now, did you realize when you joined those boards that they were essential first steps to getting into the corporate board work?
- [09:12]
Ellen Zane
If you ask a recruiter, they often say that sitting on a not for profit board is not a precursor for sitting on a for profit board. Others of us who have done both believe that it is. Because while it's a different form of governance, interacting with management, interacting with other board members, interacting on financial issues, personnel issues, strategic issues, you know what the content areas are. You have some basic ground rules, for example, the difference between the governance of an organization and the operations of an, as they say, noses in, but fingers out on the board side. So put your nose in so you learn and understand how to govern. But in terms of the day to day operations and the management, that's up to management. Once you're on a board, you don't do that anymore.
- [10:03]
Amy Bernstein
So you learn what lines you can and cannot cross. So Ellen, before we go any further, let's do sort of a 101 on boards. Why do they even exist?
- [10:14]
Ellen Zane
Because there is a difference between the governance of an organization, the oversight and governance of the assets, whether they're charitable assets or financial assets. That is why boards exist to oversee that. So that management doesn't have exclusive rights to use those assets. That. So boards are governance while management is operations and execution. So it's really oversight of some type of assets.
- [10:45]
Amy Bernstein
Mm. Boards have a specific set of functions though, and they have committees about finance and committees about compensation. Talk to us a little bit about how boards actually function.
- [10:59]
Ellen Zane
What they all have in common is usually the number one responsibility is the hiring and firing of the CEO. And when push comes to shove, it comes down to that. But they have other oversight. They have strategy responsibilities in terms of weighing in on that. Audit responsibilities, compliance responsibilities for the correct compliance of the organization. Particularly boards having to do with financial services. Most for profit boards have for committees, they have audit, nomination and governance committees. And the third is compensation. They'll have some other committees, perhaps a finance committee, perhaps a human resources committee. But the name threads that you see in almost all boards are the audit, nomination and governance and compensation.
- [11:53]
Amy Bernstein
And nomination is really about the nomination of the CEO, right?
- [11:57]
Ellen Zane
No, that's usually about the nomination of people on the board.
- [12:00]
Amy Bernstein
Oh, so other board members.
- [12:02]
Ellen Zane
And who sits on what committees? Oh, I see of other board members.
- [12:05]
Amy Bernstein
Oh, you're self governing.
- [12:06]
Ellen Zane
You self govern. That's right. And you even give yourself pay raises. That's the other thing you do.
- [12:11]
Amy Bernstein
Oh, awesome. The finance committee is where Patti Newhold Ravi Kumar started on each of the five nonprofit boards she served on while she was president of the University of Central Oklahoma. She'd been the university's CFO and before that its associate VP for planning and budget. And so naturally the Regional Food bank and Chamber of Commerce and others wanted her overseeing their money.
- [12:40]
Patti Newhold Ravi Kumar
And I'm fine serving on a finance committee, but I want to move around when I'm on the board. I don't want to be pigeonholed. Right. And so if another opportunity comes up on the development committee or on the governance committee, I ask to be moved to those places so that, number one, I can give my experience and expertise to different areas. And then number two, so that I can get that experience in return. The next board that I may serve on, I may not serve on the finance committee at all. Finance was a stepping stone for me. It was not a destination. But sometimes you have to rely on what you have until you can create what you want to be or where you want to go.
- [13:24]
Amy Bernstein
And if you want to stay within your specialty but branch out into unfamiliar industries, that's an option, too. For instance, Jolene Morse has a doctorate in risk management, and she's no surprise on the risk committees for two boards. One's for a public hospital, and the other's for an orthotic and prosthetic association. So both in healthcare and industry, she had zero professional experience in before scoring those seats. And in 2020, what I really wanted.
- [13:55]
Rovo/Atlassian Representative
To do with a board position was continually learn, challenge my own way of thinking. So I would have a look at the position descriptions and say, that kind of doesn't sound like me, or, oh, that's something, you know, that I might be interested in. So I really sort of done a lot of prep work leading up to actually starting to apply, to really narrow down where I thought my value proposition could be.
- [14:23]
Amy Bernstein
Here's how she positioned herself during the interviews.
- [14:27]
Rovo/Atlassian Representative
It was at a time where, you know, risk was sort of front of mind for a lot of people, but they didn't have a depth of knowledge. So for me, it was really saying, risk is something that I'm quite passionate about, but I think that it gets undersold because people do it because they think they have to, rather than, how can this add value to my strategy? So for me, it was really bringing a different perspective to the conversation around that.
- [14:53]
Amy Bernstein
So, Ellen, I listened to Jolene's story, and I say to myself, really? You just sort of decide you want to join a specific board and you get on the board? Is that how it works?
- [15:02]
Ellen Zane
No.
- [15:03]
Amy Bernstein
Okay.
- [15:04]
Ellen Zane
It is not. Firstly, we all have to remember it isn't about what we want per se. It's about what the boards need.
- [15:11]
Amy Bernstein
Right?
- [15:12]
Ellen Zane
And I think a lot of people who desire board service think about it in reverse. They think about what they would like.
- [15:20]
Amy Bernstein
Right?
- [15:21]
Ellen Zane
And we need to understand and be patient where boards have opportunities that match what we want. But first and foremost, boards are gonna do what they need to do for themselves.
- [15:32]
Amy Bernstein
So who makes the match?
- [15:34]
Ellen Zane
It's very interesting. If you ask a board recruiter and they're out there, if you ask them, they'll even tell you that not more than 35% of all seats that are given in boards come through A recruiter. Whether it's not for profit or for profit, it's typically who you know. And networking is important, right? And I always tell people, you never know who you're sitting next to at a breakfast on an airplane. That's how this happens, where someone knows you and someone knows a bit about your background and the skill set and the judgment that you have. And someone says, this might be a good match for a particular organization or company.
- [16:17]
Amy Bernstein
That's how Anna Manning came to the board of the elementary school connected to her church. Someone knew she was a lawyer, reasoned she had sound judgment, and badgered her until she signed on. Seven years later, she's all in as the committee chair for curriculum and Standards.
- [16:35]
Anna Manning
But when I first started on the school board, I knew nothing about children's education and just the amount of lingo and acronyms. I was a bit more reticent about coming forward and saying, wait a minute, like, why are you doing it? Like, what does that even mean?
- [16:51]
Amy Bernstein
Then in her day job, she moved into a strategy role that fortuitously let her see its board of directors in action.
- [16:58]
Anna Manning
A lot of them have been on boards for years, like boards of huge banks. And I saw people coming from completely different sectors who would say, wait, what? You know, you should be thinking about this from this lens, or you should be thinking about it from that lens. Or they would stop a whole meeting and say, sorry, what does TFG mean? And I was like, oh, yeah, I can do that too. And I just started being a lot more curious and a lot more persistent with the things that I would ask and the sort of line of inquiries that I would take. And when I actually did that, I found it never really let me down.
- [17:33]
Amy Bernstein
Ellen, you know, Anna's experience is one that every novice has. The rules are weird. They're not intuitive. I had that experience. It's as if there's no on ramp into these conversations. You must hear from a lot of women in your work with the School of Public Health, right. What questions come up and what do you tell women who are new to this whole world?
- [17:59]
Ellen Zane
I do get the question often about when to speak up and when not to and how to judge that and gear it. It's an EQ skill and understanding that you should ask questions. And there is no question that's too small.
- [18:15]
Amy Bernstein
And you have a responsibility to deeply understand.
- [18:18]
Ellen Zane
To deeply understand. Some questions, however, are better offline because it may take people down a rabbit hole that they don't want to go in in the middle of a board meeting. It's reading the room and knowing when it's important to speak up and insert yourself into the conversation and when it's not.
- [18:41]
Amy Bernstein
Mm. I mean, am I adding. Am I pushing the conversation forward, or am I just repeating myself what others are saying? The obvious. Speaking up doesn't guarantee you'll be heard, even when you're technically the leader. Which caught Lindsey Schwartz off guard. She's been on the board of directors for the center for Excellence in assisted living for 10 years and was its chair for seven.
- [19:04]
Lindsey Schwartz
My vice chair was a male. The immediate past chair was a male. And at one point, we had an executive director who was a male. And it was hard to get a word in. And I. There were a few times where I was like, I have something to say. You all need to listen. And when I said that, I think that was like a, oh, okay. We are not giving her space to talk. And I also just kind of took over, like, going through the agenda and, you know, making sure everyone was heard. That was something that was really important to me.
- [19:30]
Amy Bernstein
For many women, Lindsay says there's another aspect of reading the room. Watching your tone.
- [19:37]
Lindsey Schwartz
I would always think, oh, do I sound like a bitch when I'm being assertive? And I think I would just whisper to myself, don't worry about that. And if someone thinks you are, you're not. Or who cares? I mean, I have, like, a really good therapist that was like, you need to speak up, and you're not. You're not being a bitch. And, like, we would talk about some of the things that were going on or the way I was treated. And I also. One of the things I think is so important is finding a mentor. We had an incredible board chair, Pat Giorgio, and having her, too, and just reaching out to her when I needed. But I would always joke with her. I'd be like, I'm always thinking, what would Pat do? Because I saw her in a vote that no one wanted to be the person to do the motion on. It was just a very politically charged vote in motion. And she passed over to vice chair, and she made the motion. And seeing that, and I was like, well, I don't think she's acting like a bitch. She's taking lead. She's being a leader. She's doing hard things. And I think it was that and having my therapist, too, and just realizing not everyone is going to like what you have to say or agree with it, and it doesn't mean you're wrong, and it might not mean that they're wrong, but I worry about that.
- [20:56]
Amy Bernstein
In the beginning, this sort of self monitoring is common, including among directors of public companies. After interviewing 43 of them, researchers Tiffany Trabetowski, Courtney McCloney and Morella Hernandez described their findings in an article called How Women on Boards Navigate the Warmth, Competence Line. The line being that delicate balance of empathy and directness that people expect from us navigating. It becomes ever more delicate when you see these people quarterly, when the stakes are always high. This is why women deliberately pose ideas as questions, like I wonder what would happen if softly, politely. It's why they slip in their credentials. It's why they make a real effort to get to know other members personally, so that when they disagree with them during a meeting, the challenge doesn't feel so threatening. As board president of Alaska Dance Theater, Lori Moore deploys another of the tactics. Waiting to weigh in on a major decision until everyone else has.
- [22:05]
Anna Manning
It's not great to be the one kind of pressing your opinion. I want to hear everybody in the room, and if I get give my opinion first, sometimes I don't get all of the information or I don't get everybody collaborating within the room. So in those types of situations, what I'll do is I'll present the facts really, really flat, you know, in a very competent manner, and then really encourage other people to jump in and be more assertive about their opinions. And then I can come over top and collate all of those opinions into a true decision. It's actually helped to be on a board because I've been able to practice different ways of tackling the competence versus warmth type of dynamic. As somebody that works in technology, I make that calculation all the time. And sometimes what I found is that bleeds into my work life too. It's helped me figure out ways to be more assertive without coming over as dominant or not a team player.
- [23:18]
Amy Bernstein
One of the reasons women resort to these tactics is there's no onboarding that explains what the norms and expectations are. That's the position Anna was in when she joined the elementary school board.
- [23:30]
Anna Manning
It was kind of like throw you in. Here's the agenda for the meeting. Here's the papers. Go.
- [23:37]
Amy Bernstein
If you find yourself in a similar position, ask the chair so that you can enter that first meeting clear on how and when to contribute. Actually, best practice, Ellen says, is to suss out the culture before assuming the role.
- [23:53]
Ellen Zane
It is your job to understand that culture both within the board and within the management team and the board's relationship to the management team. And by talking to members of management and Talking to colleagues on the board, and if their stories are similar, it's a better shot than if they're all talking differently. And you think you're getting the company line. You never know everything. But it's really important to do your homework, because if the culture isn't good, you won't have a good time on that board.
- [24:26]
Amy Bernstein
So it's perfectly okay to call up other board members and introduce yourself and say, I've been offered a seat on the board. I'd love to get your take on how this board operates.
- [24:38]
Ellen Zane
It's perfectly okay to speak to whomever it is who's recruiting you, the board chair, head of nominations, or governance, and say, I want to talk with other.
- [24:47]
Amy Bernstein
People on the board, and that person will make connections.
- [24:50]
Ellen Zane
That's how it should work. If they're reticent, it's a red flag.
- [24:54]
Amy Bernstein
Right? Okay. That is excellent insight. So any board is the big leagues. Any board, these are people who have a lot of experience, who are used to the kind of the infighting, who know how to work the dynamics. What do I need to know? How do I equip myself to be a fully participating member of a board if I've never been on a board before? Given that everyone else seems to know all the unwritten rules, it is important.
- [25:28]
Ellen Zane
To do your homework right and to be prepared. And if every board for profit, not for profit, have board books, they have materials that need to be read. And you need to come prepared, you really need to do your homework, not only about the material being discussed at the board, but about the organization, about the management team, and about your colleagues on the board, know who they are and know what their backgrounds are, and understand that you are there because you bring something. And what is it we look for in a board member? Mostly it's their judgment. So I've been on a board of a semiconductor company, and I knew zero about semiconductors. And I told the CEO that, and he said to me, ellen, I have more engineers than you can count. What I need is someone who has good judgment, who's run a large organization and understands the thinking that I go through when I have to make a difficult decision versus someone who doesn't have a lot of employees. So what you bring right now is someone who's run an organization, and I need that now for this board.
- [26:36]
Amy Bernstein
Speaking of homework, Adele Wapnick did a ton of it after signing on to the board of a foundation. It's called Surgeons for Little Lives, and she actually named it as a favor for a family friend. She was still in advertising then, and the pediatric surgeon founders appreciated her strategic thinking so much that they invited her to join them.
- [26:58]
Adele Wapnick
And so I said, yes, it was an absolute pleasure to do so. So I felt like I was part of the founding, but I wasn't really. The surgeons were the ones that did, but they were always aware that they really did need laypeople, et cetera, because they, you know, their world is very specific and quite specialized.
- [27:15]
Amy Bernstein
But then she had to become proficient in that specific, specialized world of children's emergency care for two reasons. So that she could knowledgeably market and fundraise to the public, and so that she could develop her influence internally with a board that has now grown to 10 members.
- [27:34]
Adele Wapnick
I read a hell of a lot. I've learned so much about our country and what is going down and what we face in our public systems, whether it's education, health. Also, not only did I understand more about the medical field, but I also put a lot of effort into understanding how NGOs operate, how people were doing and how they got donations and how they connected with their donors, et cetera. So, yes, a lot of reading. And then the. The one surgeon that's on our board, he was a neighbour of mine down the road, and we would spend hours walking and talking. So I think I got a lot of insight through the conversations that I had more informally with him, actually, than a structured kind of learning process.
- [28:15]
Amy Bernstein
Another part of being a fully participating member of a board, Anna discovered, is piecing together the full picture of a conflict or proposal. From her first board meeting, she sensed that to grasp something complex, she couldn't simply rely on the people who'd come before the board to present.
- [28:34]
Anna Manning
And sometimes people, frankly, think because you're on a board, you're automatically a bit scary. So I've made a point of making good relationships with staff throughout the school. I will make sure that at least one day, and usually a couple of other half days within the year, I am present in school. And so I can actually just say to the English teacher, we've heard in our meeting that this particular reading scheme is going really well. Can you tell me what you think about that? And I'll say, oh, to be honest, I don't think it's going that well. I think we need to do a bit more training and I need to be supported to do that. So then I can go back and say, I've spoken to the English lead, this is what she thinks we need. How can we make that happen? Then I can make sure going back into school that that actually does happen. And then I can look at the data down the line and say, did that actually. Was that actually useful, having those different contacts within the organization that you have the ear of? Or you can listen to them and be curious and maybe you'll never have the full picture, right, but you can at least start to get under the skin of. Is what I'm being told right? Does it stack up?
- [29:49]
Amy Bernstein
This nosing around that Anna does exemplifies the autonomy and rationality that set women apart from According to two professors who study corporate strategy, when Marguerite Versema and Louise Moores interviewed directors of publicly traded companies, these are the comments they heard over and over. And I'm going to quote some from an article they wrote Women show up well prepared and concerned about accountability. Women aren't shy about acknowledging what they don't know. Women ask in depth questions. Women modulate competitiveness. These behaviors enable boardroom discussions that are more nuanced and deeper. Another notable observation from Marguerite and Louise Women appear to be less worried about how they are perceived and less likely to adhere to board norms. Instead, they want the board to make the best possible decisions. Period. So know the norms, but know that deviating from them can sometimes be a great Flex.
- [31:00]
Rovo/Atlassian Representative
Meet Rovo, your AI powered teammate Rovo connects to your organization's knowledge and lives on Atlassian's trusted and secure platform. Connect Rovo to your favorite SaaS apps to get the personalized context you need a Unleash AI with AI powered search, chat agents and studio. Get started with Rovo, your new AI teammate powered by Atlassian@rovo.com.
- [31:35]
Ellen Zane
KPMG makes the difference by creating value like developing strategic insights that help drive M and a success or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG make the difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us insights.
- [32:01]
Amy Bernstein
How much time does serving on a board take up? There's a real range.
- [32:06]
Adele Wapnick
I probably spend about a day a month if I have to collate all.
- [32:10]
Anna Manning
The hours two working weeks. But often stuff's done in the evenings, it's done in the morning before work, or it's done at weekends.
- [32:18]
Lani Hollander
I think that maybe when I started I was looking about an hour a week maximum. But when it was high and I got really involved it was maybe three hours a week.
- [32:28]
Patti Newhold Ravi Kumar
So if I'm on five boards, I have accepted the responsibility of being in five places at some point during the month. I've also committed to the drive time to get there. So even though the meeting might have only been an hour, might have only been two hours. It was 30 minutes there and 30 minutes back.
- [32:45]
Amy Bernstein
Here's a new voice, Amber Hall.
- [32:48]
Amber Hall
When I set out a few years ago to say at some point I want to join corporate boards, I knew that I would have to do the things ahead of that right. To get me board ready.
- [32:56]
Amy Bernstein
She leads product design and development at her company and she's on the board of her graduate school program at Northwestern.
- [33:04]
Amber Hall
We meet twice a year. The meetings are half day and then there's usually a lunch component with students to meet and greet. There really is no required in between. But there have been initiatives that have come up as a result of the conversation in the meeting where myself or other board members have raised their hand to say, hey, I'm willing to meet additionally to give perspective and feedback on. And so you can see in the roughly 18 months, feedback that I've provided or others have provided is now woven in into a syllabus or directly informs even the case studies that are being brought in. So I would say, I think to actually drive impact, you likely are to contribute in some additional ways.
- [33:55]
Amy Bernstein
Ellen Amber mentioned that from what she's seen, to drive impact, you've gotta do a lot more than the baseline requirement. Right. So how do you get a realistic sense of the time and effort involved in being on the board? The commitment, is it as simple as asking the recruiter?
- [34:18]
Ellen Zane
The recruiters won't know. The recruiters will say to you, if there's a recruiter, they'll say to you, it's four meetings a year, it's a day and a half.
- [34:26]
Amy Bernstein
Yeah.
- [34:27]
Ellen Zane
And you fly to whatever place and that's where you go.
- [34:29]
Amy Bernstein
Right.
- [34:30]
Ellen Zane
Or zoom. They do a lot of zoom.
- [34:32]
Amy Bernstein
So zoom must make it all much easier.
- [34:34]
Ellen Zane
It does. I have to say most boards now, for profit and not for profit, do a lot of their board meetings or committee meetings by zoom. But you need to ask in the company how many committee meetings there are. Is it the same time as the board meeting or is it at a different time? Is it live or is it virtual? And typically what has been the commitment for a director over the course of the past year or so? On the not for profit side, I have found that time commitment can almost be endless.
- [35:09]
Amy Bernstein
Yeah.
- [35:10]
Ellen Zane
As organizations they tend to be more needy than for profit boards who have football fields of people who are responsible in their job to deal with a lot of things. Whereas on not for profit boards they look to their trustees or directors to to have input on many more day to day issues and if there's a problem, if the roof falls off, it can suck a lot of air out of the room. And all of a sudden you have a lot more meetings than you ever thought you would have.
- [35:44]
Amy Bernstein
But the commitment is more than the meeting. There's all the prep as well.
- [35:48]
Ellen Zane
There's prep and then there's conversation. So let's say a not for profit is looking to buy a new building or to expand their organization. There's issues about the real estate, about the tax on that real estate, about what would go into the building, what's the strategy for it. So it tends to creep up.
- [36:09]
Amy Bernstein
Can you set a boundary?
- [36:11]
Ellen Zane
Typically, no, you can't. If you want to be on that board, it's the hand you're dealt. And I have seen situations where people say, I just don't have the bandwidth to do this right now. It doesn't happen as often as people wanting to make a difference and wanting to try to see it through. If there's a difficult or thorny issue happening. At the moment.
- [36:37]
Amy Bernstein
Only one of the women we've heard from is paid for her board work. The rest are volunteers. That one woman is Jolene, who gets between 10 and 15,000 Australian dollars annually, depending on how many meetings there are that year.
- [36:52]
Rovo/Atlassian Representative
Having that little bit of, you know, compensation, it makes it, you know, if you're having a hard day and you've just had a really, really busy day and you've got to sit through a four hour board meeting, sometimes it just gives you that little bit of extra motivation that you need.
- [37:08]
Amy Bernstein
Service can be indirectly lucrative though. For Lindsay, her free side gig opened up a money making one.
- [37:15]
Lindsey Schwartz
Consulting the exposure I've had and the professional development and the connections I've made really kind of set me up for success with being able to consult. And so that I think is probably more than any amount of money can help with.
- [37:33]
Amy Bernstein
Amber, who's on the board of the grad school program, hopes her involvement might position her to get a future gig as an adjunct lecturer. And hey, maybe those connections will help her grow her career in other ways.
- [37:45]
Amber Hall
So my network, just from who I know across industry is broader. There are people that work at some of the biggest corporations, biggest names, culturally, today on that board. Not that I've necessarily cultivated individual relationships, but just having them in my network, knowing somebody being able to reach out is great.
- [38:02]
Amy Bernstein
Ellen, the moment of the offer, is that like an offer for a job? Do they say, here's the job, here's the compensation?
- [38:10]
Ellen Zane
They do more or less go through a term sheet they say to you, and these are the four meetings we're going to have this year. First tell us, are you available? Because if these dates don't match, that often is a killer. And then they'll say, this is your compensation if it's a for profit board. And then they'll say, we'd like you to sit on the audit committee or the human resources committee. Does that match with what you would like to do? So it very much is a bit of a negotiation. Except for the compensation. No one negotiates their own package.
- [38:44]
Amy Bernstein
Well, so the comp isn't negotiable and the calendar isn't negotiable. What's negotiable?
- [38:49]
Ellen Zane
Almost nothing. Okay. I said to one board that I'm on, I'm not gonna fly around the country and coach. I'm too old. I'm not gonna do that anymore. I only go first class, take it or leave it. So you can negotiate on the fringes like that, but normally you don't negotiate your compensation at all and you don't negotiate the dates.
- [39:11]
Amy Bernstein
God, I so look forward to the day when I can look someone in the eye and say, I do not fly coach and have not burst into laughter. For people who are joining nonprofit boards, we already know that they're certainly not getting rich doing it, but they also take on some risks.
- [39:32]
Ellen Zane
Correct?
- [39:33]
Amy Bernstein
So what risks are they taking on?
- [39:36]
Ellen Zane
So anybody can sue anybody over anything. Whether it's legitimate or not is a different question. But board members of not for Profits can be sued. I was in a situation myself on a university board where we felt on a sub board there were people who were not working in the best interests of the university. And it came to the point where we had to tell them they needed to resign or we were going to sue them personally. So that was hardball. But those kinds of things can happen. Employees can turn around and sue the organization. Real estate people could say that they want your land and if you don't handle those assets correctly, they can sue the board. So people can be sued. And there are risks. In the not for profit world, it tends to be less. And most organizations do have indemnity insurance so that the directors or trustees are covered for their charitable activity. So usually on the not for profit side, the risk is less. I wouldn't say it's de minimis, but it's less than it would be on the for profit side. On the for profit side, the risks are very real. One should always ask what the D and O directors and officers insurance is. Most people will Say, don't worry about it, we've got you covered. And I usually say, I'll be the judge of that. And I want to see what the language says around the indemnification and what the limits of the liability are. That's part of the due diligence on going on a board.
- [41:17]
Amy Bernstein
What else do you advise the women who come to you? They are considering joining a board for the first time. What do you tell them to look out for that they may not even be aware of?
- [41:30]
Ellen Zane
We've covered a lot of it today in terms of how one participates. But two things I always mention to folks. One is, remember, this isn't just about you. As we mentioned earlier, put yourself in the shoes of the board and think about presenting yourself in terms of what their needs are. And it isn't about what you want, it's about can you help them in furthering their mission. That's one thing to be really careful not to talk about yourself and what you want. It is important to be able to say what you want out of it. But first and foremost, it's about the board. And the second thing is be patient. Normally, people who start to think about boards are smart people, they're accomplished people, they've done well. And sometimes they don't understand why the board doesn't come to a decision about their candidacy as quickly as they would want them to. It's not an invitation for a job, it's an invitation for a board. And it is different. Your bio should look different. Your CV should look different for board seats than it does for a job. And people need to know that boards meet every quarter or every month and they talk about candidates and they talk about the profile of what they want for the candidate. And it takes a while. And I think intelligent, smart, accomplished women get frustrated because it doesn't happen on a timeframe as quickly as it would for a job or as quickly as they would like.
- [43:08]
Amy Bernstein
Where do people learn about the bio for a board position or the resume for a board position?
- [43:16]
Ellen Zane
As you know, I do participate as program director at the Harvard School of Public Health and we spend a half a day talking about bios and CVs. Oftentimes, recruiters can help you. Some recruiters will say, get your bio right in the first paragraph because no one's going to read beyond that. It's important to not be too wordy. And in your first paragraph, instead of saying how you would have had certain skills for a job, to talk about what skills you bring to a board in terms of your Judgment and your savvy and your ability to work through difficult issues in a team with other board members.
- [44:00]
Amy Bernstein
So the best advice you could give is to talk to someone who knows how to do this.
- [44:04]
Ellen Zane
Correct.
- [44:05]
Amy Bernstein
Someone who actually makes these decisions for boards.
- [44:08]
Ellen Zane
Correct? Correct. I had a very, very accomplished individual who wrote a pretty good bio. But at the end, she wrote, and I make the best brownies you've ever eaten.
- [44:16]
Amy Bernstein
Oh, gosh.
- [44:17]
Ellen Zane
And I said to her, you can kind of take that out.
- [44:19]
Amy Bernstein
Yeah.
- [44:19]
Ellen Zane
It's just not gonna get you anywhere.
- [44:21]
Amy Bernstein
I love dogs and I love music.
- [44:23]
Ellen Zane
Yeah.
- [44:24]
Amy Bernstein
And I have one final question. So you've reached a point in your life when you think to yourself, you know, hey, I actually would like to sit on a board. What is my next step? I've had that moment of realization. What do I do?
- [44:36]
Ellen Zane
Network.
- [44:36]
Amy Bernstein
Network.
- [44:37]
Ellen Zane
And again, it depends what type of board you're interested in. If it's a community board, one needs to be involved in the community so people know you. It is shocking how often connections are made through networking. And once you hit a board, once you get on, it is shocking how it materializes from there, because then you begin to meet other people. People know people, and that's how it happens. It's not a science, it's an art.
- [45:06]
Amy Bernstein
Okay? So if you don't like networking and you want to be on a board, you better deal.
- [45:11]
Ellen Zane
Better deal with that. Cause it isn't going to fall in your lap. It's highly unlikely that out of the blue you're just going to get a call. It's usually because someone knows you, respects you, thinks about what you could contribute, and then asks.
- [45:24]
Amy Bernstein
Ellen, this has been so insightful. Thank you very, very much for your time and for your wisdom.
- [45:31]
Ellen Zane
Well, thank you. And I think it's great you're doing this for women. It's so important. So it's been a pleasure.
- [45:36]
Amy Bernstein
I hope we launch a lot of board careers with this one.
- [45:39]
Ellen Zane
I hope you do.
- [45:41]
Amy Bernstein
I'll leave you now with some final thoughts and words of encouragement from our volunteers.
- [45:47]
Lindsey Schwartz
I think we always have the. And I know you guys have done podcasts on imposter syndrome. Like, am I enough? Am I ready for this? And I think if I would have waited for me to be ready, maybe I would have only done this a year or two ago, and that that option may not have been there. And I wasn't always perfect. You don't have to be. You're going to make mistakes. And I didn't feel ready. And so I think just stepping out of your Comfort zone. It's really where we grow.
- [46:16]
Amber Hall
I don't know that I thought that I would have the voice I could, you know, but it was, it's really pretty democratic, right? It's like, let's hear every point of view and perspective. There's no hierarchy or there's no, like, bureaucracy. You know, being new to the board, I didn't, I didn't sort of have an expectation that I could throw my weight around from a perspective point of view. And I've been able to do that, which is kind of liberating but also really scary to be like, oh, I can use my voice. Oh, I can be really vocal about that. Oh, I can challenge. And I think that's been a really great experience for me and I think has also helped me find my voice professionally when I'm in rooms with similar titled individuals where I'm still very junior in my career. And I. I found a way to have the. Have the guts and gumption to say the things.
- [47:07]
Patti Newhold Ravi Kumar
I also was surprised to find out the different kinds of people who are serving on those boards. I expected that there would be a lot of people who were CEOs and presidents and lots of important titled people at these board meetings. I have to tell you, they're really important people, but very few of them carried big titles. It was nice to see how many people were coming from every walk of life to care about the mission of that organization.
- [47:37]
Adele Wapnick
If you look at being on a board and certainly an ngo, the real thing it gives you is a sense of well being. I think I underestimated that. You know, there's a saying that happiness comes from giving to those, etc. Then there's a lot of literature and research on that. And I don't think I truly believe that. Even though it's quite a common sort of phenomenon and concept, I didn't realize the sense of satisfaction doing something like this would give me. It was only once I entered into it. But my timing was right and my life phase was right. My kids have grown up, my career is extremely settled. I've got the time, I've certainly got the capacity and energy.
- [48:15]
Lani Hollander
So if you have that for a nonprofit that you're interested in, whether or not they've put out a call, go ahead and send them an email, introduce yourself and see where it goes, because I think it will only go to great places.
- [48:28]
Amanda Kersey
This episode first ran in 2023 under the title Ever Consider Joining a Board? If this episode helped you, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. While you're there in the app, consider leaving us a review. And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books and videos with the world's top business and management experts, find it all@hbr.org this episode was produced by me, Amanda Kersey on Leadership's team includes Maureen Hoch, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trexler, Ramsey Kabaz, Nicole Smith, and Anne Bartholomew. Music is by Coma Media. Thanks for listening.
- [49:21]
Ellen Zane
KPMG makes the difference by creating value like developing strategic insights that help drive M and a success, or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG make the difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us. insights.