When One of Your Employees Is Working Against You

Summary

HBR On Leadership: Episode Summary - "When One of Your Employees Is Working Against You"

Release Date: April 9, 2025
Host/Author: Harvard Business Review
Guest: Adrian Gostic, Co-Author of Leading with Gratitude
Duration: Approximately 35 minutes

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Introduction

In this episode of HBR On Leadership, hosts Dan McGinn and Alison Beard delve into the challenging scenario where an employee actively works against the manager and the organization's interests. Featuring insights from executive coach Adrian Gostic, the episode offers practical strategies to identify, address, and mitigate the impact of subversive behavior in the workplace.

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Understanding Subversive Employees

The episode begins with an exploration of subversive employees—those who intentionally create problems, manipulate office dynamics, and undermine colleagues to appear indispensable. Such behavior not only disrupts team harmony but also hampers organizational efficiency.

Key Quote:

“Some employees don't just cause problems, they create them on purpose. Subversive employees manipulate office politics, undermine colleagues, and make themselves look indispensable, all while frustrating the people who actually see what's happening.”
— Dan McGinn [00:41]

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Case Study 1: The Problematic IT System Administrator

Scenario: A manager faces challenges with a tenured IT system administrator who deliberately misconfigures devices, creating issues that he subsequently resolves to gain favor with senior executives. This behavior leads to inconsistencies in service quality and breeds resentment among team members.

Discussion & Insights:

1. Initial Approach – Leading with Positivity: Adrian emphasizes starting interactions with positivity and gratitude to understand the root cause of the behavior.

   Key Quote:

   “There's some reason why somebody's being subversive, and the best thing for any leader to do is to start with positivity... identify the good things they're doing versus just beating them up for the things that may be wrong.”
   — Adrian Gostic [02:12]

2. Distinguishing Difficult vs. Toxic Employees: Adrian differentiates between difficult employees, who may be challenging but manageable, and toxic employees whose behavior is detrimental to the team.

   Key Quote:

   “There are difficult employees, and then there are toxic employees... those toxic employees, those are the ones where, yeah, we do have to take a firmer, more disciplined approach in our leadership styles.”
   — Adrian Gostic [02:52]

3. Escalating to Senior Leadership: When direct interventions fail, Adrian advises preparing a compelling case backed by data to present to senior leadership, highlighting the inefficiencies caused by the subversive employee.

   Key Quote:

   “You have to try and bring it back to the business need... use cold, hard facts.”
   — Alison Beard [08:05]

4. Implementing Systems to Prevent Manipulation: Suggestions include introducing a ticketing system to ensure equal treatment for all requests, regardless of the requester’s rank, and setting clear metrics for performance evaluation.

   Key Quote:

   “Time should be the metric that the helper is judged on, whether it's the VP or whether it's the admin.”
   — Dan McGinn [07:30]

5. Direct Conversations and Coaching: Adrian and Alison stress the importance of having direct, fact-based conversations with the employee, outlining the consequences and offering support through coaching or training.

   Key Quote:

   “You have to try. But you're right, Alison. Of course, that's where we have to start.”
   — Adrian Gostic [10:45]

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Case Study 2: The Knowledge Hoarder

Scenario: A manager struggles with a team member who, despite being a deep technical expert, hoards information, is poor at time management, and exhibits defensive behavior during feedback sessions. This individual's cultural background is cited as a possible factor influencing her managerial style.

Discussion & Insights:

1. Understanding Underlying Causes: Adrian highlights that knowledge hoarding can stem from fear of losing a competitive edge or feeling overwhelmed by constant demands.

   Key Quote:

   “Sometimes it's because they fear they're gonna lose a competitive advantage, but it's often just because they are too pressed for time...”
   — Alison Beard [17:17]

2. Implementing Structured Check-Ins: Introducing regular weekly meetings to set clear goals and monitor progress can help address time management and prioritization issues.

   Key Quote:

   “One of the simple ways you can do that is Monday morning asking for a weekly check-in...”
   — Adrian Gostic [21:26]

3. Encouraging Humility and Openness: Fostering an environment where the employee acknowledges the need for change and is open to continuous improvement is crucial.

   Key Quote:

   “She has got to be able to have the humility to say, I'm willing to change and I need to change...”
   — Adrian Gostic [18:38]

4. Utilizing External Coaching: If internal interventions fail, engaging an external coach can provide the necessary perspective to help the employee recognize and alter her behavior.

   Key Quote:

   “If this person is that valuable to them, find them a coach who can help them.”
   — Adrian Gostic [22:55]

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Case Study 3: Toxic High-Performers Creating a Cliquish Environment

Scenario: A senior manager in a small, predominantly female team faces issues with two exceptionally skilled employees whose dominant personalities lead to a cliquish and subtly bullying work environment. Despite their high performance, their behavior undermines team cohesion and the manager's authority.

Discussion & Insights:

1. Assessing Managerial Weaknesses: Adrian points out that the manager's reluctance to exert authority and address subtle bullying has allowed the toxic behavior to persist.

   Key Quote:

   “This is a weak manager who needs to... be a little tougher here.”
   — Adrian Gostic [26:39]

2. Promoting Accountability and Clear Expectations: Establishing and enforcing clear behavioral standards, possibly with the support of HR, can help mitigate toxic behavior.

   Key Quote:

   “This manager and she's admitted I'm not the best micromanager. She needs intervention from HR...”
   — Adrian Gostic [27:55]

3. Creative Solutions for Workplace Dynamics: Reassigning office spaces to reduce direct interaction between toxic employees or implementing team-building exercises to foster inclusivity.

   Key Quote:

   “Simply putting them 50ft across the floor from each other could have a really profound change.”
   — Dan McGinn [28:55]

4. Direct Conversations and Firm Boundaries: Engaging in candid discussions with the problematic employees, outlining unacceptable behaviors, and the potential consequences for continued misconduct.

   Key Quote:

   “You have to create some documentation, but it's taking a lot of my time and resources to manage this, and we got to figure it out.”
   — Adrian Gostic [30:13]

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Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode underscores the importance of proactive leadership in addressing subversive and toxic behaviors within teams. Key strategies include:

• Starting with Positivity: Approach problematic employees with gratitude and understanding to uncover underlying issues.

• Data-Driven Advocacy: Present clear, factual evidence to senior leadership to highlight the impact of the employee's behavior.

• Implementing Systems: Utilize structured processes like ticketing systems to ensure fairness and accountability.

• Direct and Firm Communication: Have candid conversations outlining expectations, consequences, and the path forward.

• Leveraging External Support: Engage coaches or external resources when internal efforts are insufficient.

• Evaluating Managerial Practices: Ensure that management practices support a healthy, inclusive, and respectful work environment.

Final Thought: Effective leadership is not about avoiding conflict but managing it constructively to foster a thriving organizational culture.

Final Quote:

“This is a problem best tackled directly and with a lot more backbone.”
— Alison Beard [33:07]

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This episode serves as a vital resource for leaders facing the difficult task of managing employees who work against organizational goals. By implementing the discussed strategies, leaders can navigate these challenges, ensuring both team harmony and organizational success.

Transcript

[Molly Wood]

Why should you listen to the Worklab podcast from Microsoft? Because it delivers actionable insights for business leaders on how to leverage AI to access untapped value, turbocharged decision making and sharpen their competitive edge. That's W O R K L A B no spaces available Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alison Beard]

Asana is where work connects, where projects, teams and company goals are seamlessly intertwined with AI to propel your organization towards sharing shared success. Try for free [e-mail].

[Molly Wood]

Before we begin, we have a couple of questions. What do you love about HBR on leadership? What do you want less of? What would make HBR on Leadership even better? Tell us. Head over to hbr.org podcastsurvey to share your thoughts. We want to make the show even better, but we need your help to do that. So head to hbr.org podcastsurvey thank you. Welcome to HBR on Leadership. Case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts, hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. Some employees don't just cause problems, they create them on purpose. Subversive employees manipulate office politics, undermine colleagues, and make themselves look indispensable, all while frustrating the people who actually see what's happening. So what can a leader do? In this episode of Dear HBR, hosts Dan McGinn and Alison Beard tackle this tricky leadership challenge with Adrian Gostic, co author of Leading with Gratitude. They explore how to expose subversive behavior, make a compelling case to senior leadership, and set up systems that prevent manipulation. Here's Adrian explaining why expressing gratitude to a subversive colleague should be the first step to getting to the bottom of their behavior.

[Adrian Gostic]

There's some reason why somebody's being subversive, and the best thing for any leader to do is to start with positivity. Start with the carrot versus the stick. Now, I'm not saying you won't get to the stick, but you always try to understand where somebody's coming from, why they may be acting in the they are. And you begin by valuing who they are, and you begin by identifying the good things they're doing versus just beating them up for the things that may be wrong.

[Alison Beard]

That can be really hard, though. Once an employee is making things difficult for you day after day after day, how do you begin to address those problems, even if you're coming at it with an attitude of positivity?

[Adrian Gostic]

Yeah, it sounds like you've had some experience there, Allison. I can feel it's true. There are difficult employees, and then there are toxic employees the difficult we all have, and they can still make our lives miserable. And we have to find a way as leaders to work with them. Whereas those toxic employees, those are the ones where, yeah, we do have to take a firmer, more disciplined approach in our leadership styles.

[Alison Beard]

Dear hbr, I manage an IT system administrator and help desk employee who creates problems, then resolves them to make himself look good to senior executives. For example, he'll set up a laptop for a new VP of sales, but somehow misconfigure the vpn. Then when the VP calls about it, he'll act like it's a big issue and show that he's working day and night to fix it. So the VP thinks he's so dedicated and supportive, he'll email at night and give out his personal mobile number instead of the general help desk number. Meanwhile, when he thinks an employee is insignificant, the case will sit for weeks before he helps them. He's one of only two system administrators, and once a case is assigned, that person owns it until it's resolved. When I do spot reviews of cases and catch him doing this, I've warned him that he shouldn't be having problems after standard setups, but he just moves on and creates different kinds of fires. I'm unable to get rid of him. He has too many backers in management. He's been with a company for more than 10 years and has systematically cultivated their support by doing these kind of things. What can I do?

[Adrian Gostic]

When I was listening to this, I had flashbacks because I had this employee. I had a guy, I'll call him Sam. Who? Chester. My co author and I, we hired years ago when we were working together in a corporate environment. And the problem was like this. Clients loved him, the senior leaders loved him, and his teammates thought he was the worst human being who ever lived. And he would be on the road a lot. And when he came in, he would actually just make rounds from each of the executive offices, pretty much spend the whole day out schmoozing with the executives. His teammates couldn't get anything out of him. We couldn't get anything out of him. When we complained to our boss, the CEO, about him, he would say, work around him. He's a great guy. Clients love him. Just could not get him. We couldn't help our senior leaders understand that this guy was really a challenge and the team didn't like him.

[Alison Beard]

So what did you do?

[Adrian Gostic]

Well, thankfully on this one, he ended up shooting himself in the foot and finally ended up kind of showing his colors. But that doesn't always Happen. And there's a very good chance, if this guy here has been doing this for 10 years, this system administrator, he's not going to get caught. Right? He's just going to keep doing this. And so when you have this happen, you've got to start working the senior leadership yourself. You got to be a little political yourself, and a lot of leaders hate doing that.

[Dan McGinn]

Yeah. I thought this was a fascinating letter and a fascinating problem. I'm naive. I didn't think that people would do this kind of thing. We've been doing the show for a couple years now, and I don't think I've ever used the word diabolical. It's evil, but it's really cleverly evil. It reminded me of that cartoon that was on when I was a kid. There was that theme song. Here I come to save the day. He creates a problem, and then he sort of swoops in and sweats and works hard and solves it. I can see how annoying this would be to be his boss. But as. As a game goes, man, he's found a way to score the system, huh?

[Alison Beard]

It's interesting, Adrian, that you start with the idea of explaining to senior leadership exactly what he's doing, that actually he's a poor performer because he's not doing the initial tasks well. He's only solving problems. But how does he do that in a way that doesn't sound like he's whingeing or unable to manage his own employee or even jealous of him because he has these relationships with the top executives?

[Adrian Gostic]

And you're exactly right, Allison. This is a really difficult one because it's very easy to come in here and look like you're being a little petty. Oh, this guy's the hero, and I'm a little petty. And so you talk about efficiency. You say, look, we're not as efficient as we can be because of this. You talk about the steps that you're going to take because I got some of my people who may be distracted. Let me tell you what's happening with Sam here. And we're not as efficient as we can be. So we're going to put together a ticketing system, and we're going to make sure people live by this, because this is what's been happening. We've got 10% of our workforce who are the upper echelon are very happy, and 90% of people who are ticked off. And we can't run a help desk that way. So you have to try and bring it back to the business need that.

[Dan McGinn]

Ticket system was an idea that I thought of as well. When you place an order at a fast food restaurant, there's a little clock on the screen that starts ticking. And it does that because time to service is really, really important in that industry. It would make sense in this context that the moment somebody puts a ticket into the help desk, a clock starts counting. So it doesn't matter what the rank of the person submitting the ticket is. The time should be the metric that the helper is judged on, whether it's the VP or whether it's the admin start to measure the time it takes them to close tickets and incentivize them against that.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah, Adrian, I loved your idea about going to the senior leadership with some information on consequences. You could say in one sense, 90% of the people rate our services very poorly because they're not being responded to in a timely fashion. You could also say this is the percentage of time being wasted on dealing with senior leaders. Technical issues because of this one employee. Cold, hard facts do tend to work.

[Adrian Gostic]

Yeah, there's no doubt you come with your case ready because this guy's smart. You have to go in as if you are, you know, you're an attorney arguing a case before a jury here. And you've got to have your data and your facts that say, here's how we can improve efficiency. And I love Dan's idea. So few teams do this. We did some work once with the US Navy's Blue Angels. They're an elite fighter group and they do these 200 performances a year. Marvelous acrobatics in air. And everything is verbal. I thought everything would be computerized. It's not. And you can't exactly go, oh, no, no, your other left. You have to be really careful when you're up in the air. But when they come down, I love this. What they did was they removed all their insignias of rank, all their lieutenants bars or their privates bars, whatever they had. And they would all sit around in a room and debrief each other. And they could say, you, somebody who was sweeping the floors could tell the commander of the group, you were off on your flight line. And he would say, yeah, no, I was. I was 50ft off, and I won't let that happen again. And it's that idea of, we're going to be very clear about what went right and what went wrong and there'll be no elephants in the room. And so I think it's rare when teams really do that. And I think that's One thing that could help in this case.

[Dan McGinn]

I do think that part of this problem, though, might be hard to solve, because I've seen this in companies. Alison, do you have a favorite IT person?

[Alison Beard]

No.

[Dan McGinn]

Oh, I do. I'm not gonna tell. I'm not gonna play favorites, but I don't think it's uncommon. You know, you do develop a relationship with these people. You get the sense that some of them are more responsive than others. It's like any other kind of service thing, this idea that everybody needs to be equal. You can't go to your favorite person. He is sort of bucking human nature in that, don't you think?

[Alison Beard]

Yes. But if those executives begin to learn that the only reason they need to work with him so much is because he's creating problems with their computers, I feel like that might erode some of the trust that he's developed. But we seem to have skipped the idea of talking to this person directly.

[Adrian Gostic]

Absolutely not. No, no. This. No, of course. Yeah. Listen, you're exactly right. Yeah. And you know what? There's a very good chance he won't believe you. He won't buy into it. He'll want to know, well, who said this? And you'll say, well, I'm hearing it for a lot of people. Well, I don't believe so, because. So there's a very good chance he's going to argue, but. But you still have to try. But you're right, Alison. Of course, that's where we have to start.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah. I think it's really important when he does have a direct conversation with the employee, to come in very matter of factly with information. Not make it personal. Make it very much about what the team's goals are and outline what this means for him professionally. That you will be talking to senior leaders if this doesn't change. And that might change his status with them.

[Dan McGinn]

Adrian, instead of a random ticketing system where problems go to whichever IT person is available, should our letter writer assign cases and do so in a way that the problem person is not getting all the senior people?

[Adrian Gostic]

Yeah, I think this is the last kind of idea here that we might have with this. With this issue is that the manager does need to be a little stronger. The manager can take control of certain issues. One that the manager says, look, I'm going to be doing the assigning from now on. And also, at this point, if everything is tried and you've failed, you can control other things. You know, you can control this person's ability to even get a raise. You can control this person's ability to work from home. What's the perk that this person likes? At some point you might get to that point is that a manager has to exert some sort of influence to try and get the work in the performance parameters that he's look or she is looking for.

[Dan McGinn]

Alison, what's our advice?

[Alison Beard]

We have two suggestions. First, it's always worthwhile to have a direct conversation with difficult employees. You come to that conversation armed with facts about his underperformance, how it's so important for everyone to play their roles and serve the entire organization. But you can also explain the consequences that if his behavior doesn't change, you plan to talk to senior leadership, you might change the assignments he gets. It's probable that because this person does seem to be rather diabolical in his playing of office politics that our letter writer will need to start working this leaner leadership herself. We think that she should talk about the consequences for the organization, perhaps the percentage of people who are unhappy with their service, the percentage of time being spent on unnecessary fixes. And then we also would like to see her suggest solutions, her handling reassignments in a different way, even instituting a ticketing system that takes some of the choice out of the process and debriefing to get everyone working more efficiently in solving these tech problems.

[Molly Wood]

Why should you listen to the Worklab podcast from Microsoft? Because it delivers actionable insights for business leaders on how AI can help future proof their organizations by accessing untapped value, turbocharged decision making and sharpen their competitive edge in a world of rapid change and economic uncertainty. In the latest episode, Harvard Business School professor Karim Lakhani joins host Molly Wood for a vital conversation about the challenges and opportunities of transforming organizations with AI. Get the knowledge you need now on Worklab. That's W O R K L A B no spaces available wherever you get your podcasts. Unlike any class, book or podcast, Strawberry Me personal coaching gives you something unique a professional partner who's 100% focused on your success. It's not about advice. Your coach will ask the right questions, helping you uncover hidden strengths, break through obstacles and move forward with confidence. If you're ready to unlock your full potential, visit Strawberry Me HBR for a $50 credit. That's Strawberry Me HBR.

[Dan McGinn]

Dear HBR, I lead a diverse 15 person team at an IT company. We're all from a variety of backgrounds, professionally, technically and personally. One woman is our resident deep technical expert, but I've heard from her teammates that she hoards information and Gets upset when she's asked to share her knowledge. There are communication issues and she is poor at time management. She's always showing up late to meetings, missing them or proposing reschedules. She often fails to follow through on action items. I don't want to overgeneralize, but she comes from India where the corporate culture is more hierarchical. So maybe the problems stem from the fact that she is a middle manager while the majority of the team is junior to her, with only a couple of peers and a couple one level above her. When I've tried to talk with her about all this, she redirects to other team issues. When I ask her how things are going in areas where I know that there are interpersonal conflicts, she tells me, great. I've tried different ways to give her feedback at various times and in various areas, but she usually defends herself and rejects it. She says she's being unfairly scapegoated. I've had similar conversations with others on the team and they're open and receptive. So I don't think it's my style or delivery. How do I have these conversations with her in a more effective way?

[Adrian Gostic]

You know, this one is really interesting to me. I do a lot of executive coaching and yesterday I was on the phone with a fellow who. It took us about 45 minutes and everything was great. Everything's fine. I'm just beloved of my people. And yet there was a reason that the organization had asked me to coach him. Nothing would break through until finally we, you know, I did suggest doing a 360 with his people. And at that point he did say, well, I guess one thing they might say is, you know, I'm kind of Dr. No, I've been here a long time and I know what will work and I won't. I just don't want to listen to all their ideas. And I'll tell him right away, this won't work. Well, all of a sudden we started opening up and we started finding out, you know, the way he was being perceived. And so I think this is a little. What's happening here. This again, as we think about that idea of toxic versus difficult employees. I think this is just a difficult employee who is really overwhelmed and I think probably would stand to benefit from maybe a little coaching a360 on her so that she can see how she is being perceived by others.

[Alison Beard]

Yeah, I came at this letter really disliking the knowledge hoarder who's being described. But then I looked up some research that we've Published, which is really interesting and made me empathize with people who do have a lot of knowledge in organizations. Sometimes it's because they fear they're gonna lose a competitive advantage, but it's often just because they are too pressed for time and they feel that all these other people are depending on them and always asking them for stuff. That pressure causes them to just seize up and say, I can't, I don't have the time to do this one study. People would even pretend that they didn't have the information. And so I feel like if we can find a way to break through that woman's natural reaction, feeling pressured, like everyone's coming to her and she doesn't have the time for it. That's what our letter writer needs to do.

[Adrian Gostic]

I couldn't agree more. I think that's exactly right. The first place we start is that she actually might be that busy. And you're right. The first time you might hear this, you might dislike this, this woman as this hoarder and oh, I've known somebody like that. But then as you think about this a little more, you might realize that she just doesn't even have 30 seconds sometimes to explain stuff to somebody because it's going to last five minutes and I know it will. So I think there's a few things we might be able to do as leaders to help her. One would be to backfill, cross train somebody else in what she's doing.

[Dan McGinn]

What about this business of her being hierarchical and paying too much attention to that? Is that a mindset that a manager can try to make less of an issue for a subordinate? Is there a way to sort of open her mind to people being equal? Regardless of who's a manager, who's a direct report, who's a vice president, who's not.

[Adrian Gostic]

There were a few things I noticed in that. First off, he asked, he says, well, I don't know if this is an issue or not, but she's from India. And I say, well, that's not an inclusive mindset today. So that's probably not a good mindset for this manager to have coming in. And now let's say this person, this woman we're talking about here does have an issue with the level of person. Well, then it is something to talk about. And like we talked about in the last issue, this is really not something that we can have. But again, it becomes a values based discussion. It becomes an issue of we're going to help everybody no matter where they are in the organization. We're going to respect. But that has to be a value that we really believe in our team and we live up to. It can't just be lip service. I have to see it in you, my manager, and I expect it from my employees as well.

[Alison Beard]

I completely agree that, as we said before, a direct conversation with this employee and as you said, Adrian, making it easier for her. So, first of all, this is something we really care about, and we're going to incentivize you to do it. Secondly, what's the best way for you to do it? Should we assign you a mentee who you pass everything to, and then they pass it to the rest of the organization? Dorothy Leonard, who's a former HBS professor, has written a lot for us on knowledge cascades. You know, trainings, challenge sessions, campfire meetings, Just all different ways to get knowledge out of one person's head and disperse it to the organization without taxing that one person who has all the expertise. So I think just a brainstorming session with her might help her be less resistant to change and being confronted and criticized.

[Adrian Gostic]

One of the things as you sit and chat with this woman about this process, and I love Allison that you're talking about, it's the team. We're creating a team environment here, and how do we move forward? And she has got to be able to have the humility to say, I'm willing to change and I need to change, and that's okay. To have the courage then to move forward and to try this, but also have the discipline to stick with this. Because as a manager, hopefully you're going to be meeting with her at least once a month and saying, okay, how are we doing? And you're going to set aside at least an hour for this, and you're going to take a little time because this is just as important as all of her other deliverables to help her grow and develop and become this team player that everybody needs.

[Alison Beard]

I love that idea of ongoing coaching.

[Dan McGinn]

Adrienne, when you hear that she's late to meetings, failing to show up, failing to follow up on things, she sounds like she has some organization problems and time management problems. Is that an area you would attack here?

[Adrian Gostic]

That's a good question, Dan, because we are making the assumption she is overwhelmed, she's incredibly taxed, she's putting out a lot of of product. And one of the things that a manager has got to figure out first off is really is this person producing all this output as well. One of the simple ways you can do that is Monday morning asking For a weekly check in, say, okay, what are you working on this week? Great. Okay, so these are your goals, these are your deliverables. Great. Next Monday morning we're going to meet. And now if you find out those deliverables are the same pretty much week after week, then you've got an issue that she's really not accomplishing all that you're thinking that's happening. And then there really is a time management issue that's going on here or a performance issue. But if she is crunching out a lot of stuff, then it might be also a prioritization issue. It might be. The problem is she doesn't know which issues are the most important. And this is something that a manager can really help with, helping her understand. These are the top five issues that you should be working on this week.

[Alison Beard]

Let's assume that she tries to talk to this woman, encourages her to change, but she's still faced with this defensive posture, rejecting that there's even a problem. What's the next step for a letter writer?

[Adrian Gostic]

The last step, really after you've tried this as a leader is to that idea. Maybe it's somebody on the outside can help, maybe a coach can help. This might not be a long process, it might be three months or six months. And it doesn't have to be tremendously expensive. But this is obviously a valued employee from what I'm hearing here. So if this team member is that valuable to them, find them a coach who can help them. Somebody from the outside. Sometimes just an outside perspective can help shake us up and help us realize that maybe we're not being perceived in the way that we should be.

[Alison Beard]

Terrific. So, Dan, what are we advising our manager?

[Dan McGinn]

So we see a couple of issues here. Clearly one of them is the way that this woman is managing her time. Maybe she needs more resources, they need more staff. Maybe she needs help prioritizing. Maybe she needs weekly check ins. So this issue of time constantly running late and dropping deliverables, we see that as part of the problem. The larger issue here is one of respect and values. She's not treating her co workers with as much respect, that she's acting as if she's above them. We think this is probably not a cultural issue and we think the fact that she's a native of India is probably not a good mindset as a manager to assume that's the cause of this. We'd like the letter writer to have a direct conversation with her, let her know this is a problem. Maybe do a360 to show data and evidence that this is a problem help her recognize that she needs to change. If nothing else works, consider an outside coach who can help her with both of these issues and it might be as short as a three month engagement in hopes of finding some results from this person.

[Alison Beard]

Okay, let's go to the last letter Dear hbr, I've been a senior manager in the home office of a membership organization for more than a decade. We have less than 50 employees and most are women under age 42. People on my team come from non traditional work environments. They sit next to one another in cubes and have become best friends. A social powerhouse in our small office, both are exceptionally good at their jobs. But here's the problem. They share the same dominant personality traits and their mood or activities tend to set the tone for their whole work area. When challenged, they're very good at seeming to be team players, but in reality they're cliquish and even subtle bullies. If there were only one of them, I probably wouldn't be writing this letter. But they gang up on everyone, including me. Due to their independent work. I don't always know where they are or what they're doing. Neither seems to think they need a boss, and that's pretty clear in how they treat me. They're not out and out rude, but I don't feel any support. I'd like to separate them, but our office can't accommodate that right now. I should note that they'd be surprised to hear themselves described this way. Many of us simply work around them rather than inviting conflict. My question is how much should I let them get away with as long as they do their work and do it well. Co workers at various levels tell me I should clamp down, exert my authority, and make them report what they're doing. Leaders above me see their professional limitations and are quick to call me out on their behavior when something goes awry. But micromanaging is not my style, and since much of their unpleasant behavior is subtle, I have a hard time telling them where the line is between okay and not okay when I provide corrective feedback. They understandably want specifics, but they're so adept at cover your ass behavior that the examples I give end up looking like opinions that can be debated. I've involved our HR manager and he agrees I'm in a tricky position. I've managed talented, difficult people with success before and can tolerate it, but I'm weary of the conflict. Do you think one or both of the women have to go? Experience tells me they could be replaced and life would go on. Or is there something else I can do to mitigate these issues? Wow, Adrienne, what do you think about this one?

[Adrian Gostic]

Now this is now again, when we were thinking about, is this person toxic or are they difficult? These two are toxic. There's no doubt. And yet I see a couple of big issues arising. First off, with this one problem is with the manager. You know, you've got two younger employees, or junior employees, I should call them, who aren't paying attention. And the manager needs to be more assertive. I mean, this is a weak manager who needs to. Who's letting two people run amok, and that's just not appropriate. The second big problem is with this HR guy who says, boy, yeah, you got a problem. And it's like nobody's helping each other here. I would say there's a big problem as well with this manager says, look, this is not my strong suit. I don't like to micromanage people. I expect people to be grown ups, hr. I need you to help me. And so I think both of them working together, HR and this manager, both of them have a role in this that's going on. Whose issue is this? Now, of course, these two employees are toxic and we need to deal with them as well. But I think that's the first place we start is looking at the behavior of the manager and the behavior of.

[Alison Beard]

HR and even pulling in some of those leaders that are criticizing the employees and how the manager is handling them, but then not offering suggestions for how to fix the situation.

[Adrian Gostic]

Oh, absolutely. Managing people is hard. I mean, we're all crazy in our own way, and these two are just being allowed to run amok. And this manager has to bring them together, or probably better separately, and say, here's what's going to happen. This is not appropriate behavior. I can argue with you, but something has to change here. You're not happy, because I'm hearing lots of things and I'm not happy with this behavior. And so while there's some limitations of space, I'm sure you can still separate these people. You can move people around and they can be removed from each other. And the question is, do you fire one? Do you get rid of both this, that, and the other? Well, I think first off, you start seeing if you can change this behavior. The good part about this, unlike the question we had a few questions ago, they don't have senior leadership support. They don't have HR support. Really, the only thing that's stopping them from improving their behavior Is a manager who needs to be a little tougher here.

[Dan McGinn]

Yeah. This idea that I think it would improve the situation if I move them apart in the office so they were no longer in adjoining cubes, But I just can't do that right now. I agree with you. We should lean a little bit harder on that. Think creatively, Find a space. I think location drives a lot of human interaction, and Simply putting them 50ft across the floor from each other could have a really profound change. And I think I'd urge this manager to get creative on solutions for that.

[Alison Beard]

But I think that direct conversation that Adrian was suggesting is important first, because I think that if my manager separated me from my best friend without explaining to me why, I would get pretty ticked. Hopefully, Amy never does that to us. Dan, I think being very firm with him. You said, Adrian, completely agree with you on that, that a direct conversation needs to happen immediately.

[Dan McGinn]

I wonder if this letter writer is feeling enough urgency around the potential personal costs that she could experience here. She says leaders are quick to call me out on their behavior when something goes awry. I mean, it sounds like there's a set of people that are getting pretty fed up with our letter writer, too, that she's not really handling this very well. I wonder if she has enough urgency. Not around just sort of. This is a problem I need to solve, but this is a problem for her and her career.

[Adrian Gostic]

Yeah. And I think the dialogue that you two are having is excellent, because I think one of the things that, as you sit down with these two independently, one at a time, you really have this discussion of. And it has to be very clear that, you know, you aren't happy. I'm not happy. We have to come to an agreement, and I'm going to give you some time, but it may take six months. We're going to put this in place. I'm going to create some documentation, but it's taking a lot of my time and resources to manage this, and we got to figure it out. Now, if this my way doesn't work for you, that's okay. You won't be able to work here, but it's okay, because we're all going to be a lot happier. And they need to know in very clear and concise terms that their jobs really are on the line with this, that this behavior cannot continue. Because right now, she is the one being blamed for all of this.

[Alison Beard]

How can she better enlist support from HR from those senior leaders? Adrienne, do you have any ideas on that?

[Adrian Gostic]

Absolutely. This is one where this manager and she's admitted I'm not the best micromanager. She needs intervention from hr, which means HR will be involved in these conversations because they're going to throw up smoke screens. They're going to say, that's not right. They don't sound like dummies, these two. And so there's going to be a lot of verbiage that's thrown at this manager. This manager needs the HR guy in there with her. The second bit of intervention that she needs from HR is training that she needs these two to be coached or brought in or trained or maybe the whole team needs it. And there are appropriate, respectful behaviors within the workforce that have to be respected. And again, this comes back to that idea of creating some values.

[Dan McGinn]

Yeah, I question whether the notion that you can just move one of them out is realistic. It sounds like their performance is okay. And as she says, a lot of their behavior is subtle. It just seems like it's not apparent to me that they've crossed an egregious line that would warrant termination. So I wonder if her hands are a little bit tied on that front.

[Alison Beard]

Especially because they are such good performers. She's not just gonna have to replace one solid employee. If the solution is firing them, she's gonna have to replace two.

[Adrian Gostic]

Well, I hear that a lot, especially, you know, government organizations or organizations with perhaps unionized employees where a manager will tell me, I can't just fire somebody. And so it's a really good point, is that the first step you always take is to try and work through this. But there may be other options where you might, within different parts of the organization, be able to move people, transfer them out, create new opportunities that don't involve your particular team. Sometimes a second chance can be just as good for somebody else on another team. Breaking these two apart.

[Dan McGinn]

Alison, what's our summary?

[Alison Beard]

So, first, we want our letter writer to recognize that this is a really big problem. She has a set of toxic employees on her hands, and people are starting to blame her for letting the situation fester. We think that she needs to talk to them, probably separately, be firm, explain that their behavior isn't appropriate and that it needs to improve, outline all the ways that should happen, even mention that HR and senior leaders at the organization agree there's a problem and let them know that their jobs are on the line, while at the same time acknowledging their strong performance and explaining that they're valued. We think it's wise to enlist HR and other managers either in these direct conversations or just in supporting team training. About appropriate behavior or even coaching for these particular employees. There are creative solutions like splitting them up, but we think that this is a problem best tackled directly and with a lot more backbone.

[Dan McGinn]

Adrian, thanks for coming on the show.

[Adrian Gostic]

Oh Dan Ellison, it was a real pleasure and thank you so much.

[Molly Wood]

That was executive coach Adrian Gostic in conversation with Alison beard and Dan McGinn on Dear HBR Gostik is a co author of the book Leading with Gratitude. We'll be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation about leadership from Harvard Business Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, be sure to leave a us a review. And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books and videos with the world's top business and management experts, you'll find it [e-mail] this episode was produced by Kurt Nickish and me, Hannah Bates. Kurt is also our editor. Music by Coma Media Special thanks to Ian Fox, Maureen Hoch, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Kaboz, Nicole Smith, Anne Bartholomew, and you our listener. See you next week.

[Alison Beard]

Hi, I'm Amy Bernstein, HBR's editor in chief.

[Molly Wood]

And I'm Amy Gallo, a longtime contributing editor to hbr. Along with Amy B. I host our Women at Work podcast, which now releases.

[Alison Beard]

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[Adrian Gostic]

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[Alison Beard]

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