When You’re Worn Down—and Your Team Is Too

Summary

Podcast Summary: HBR On Leadership
Episode: When You’re Worn Down—and Your Team Is Too
Date: April 1, 2026
Host: Kurt Nickish (Harvard Business Review)
Guest: Daisy Auger-Dominguez (Workplace Strategist and Author)

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Main Theme Overview

This episode dives into the challenge of manager burnout and disengagement, exploring practical ways leaders can rediscover and spread joy—even amidst heavy workloads, constant change, and remote work stressors. Daisy Auger-Dominguez, workplace strategist and author of the HBR article "Finding Joy as a Manager Even on Bad Days," outlines strategies for managers to foster sustained satisfaction and resilience in themselves and their teams.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Joy at Work

• Distinction from Happiness:
  “It’s about finding deep, sustaining satisfaction in one’s work... Joy at work is closely tied to purpose, alignment, and well-being.”
  — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [02:51]
• Joy is not fleeting; it is rooted in meaningful connections, inclusive environments, recognition, and empowering others.

2. Manifestations of Manager Burnout & Joylessness

• Common Symptoms:
  • Anger, frustration, cynicism, and chronic fear that hamper creativity, productivity, and decision-making.
    “When your manager’s worn down, inevitably your team ends up getting worn down. That energy gets passed over.”
    — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [04:31]
• Middle Managers Especially Vulnerable:
  Facing pressure from both upper leadership and frontline teams, often without adequate support or recognition.
  “It’s just a recipe for deep, deep burnout.”
  — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [05:39]

3. Why Focusing on Joy (Not Just Burnout) Matters

• Shifting the Lens:
  Constantly dwelling on burnout can be demoralizing and self-fulfilling; focusing on sources of joy is more energizing and sustainable.
  “I want to emphasize the joy and the lightness that we can have at work because I do believe that that helps reduce burnout.”
  — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [06:45]
• Addressing What’s Within Reach:
  Systemic causes of burnout (overwork, lack of resources) aren’t always immediately fixable, but managers can control the moments, atmosphere, and their own mindset.

4. The Challenge of Remote Work & Disconnection

• Hurdles in Maintaining Joy Remotely:
  Remote work makes it harder to pick up on team members’ emotional states and provide spontaneous support.
  “It’s much harder when you’re on a screen to do the things that we do when we’re in a meeting... You don’t have the same human exchange that most of us need.”
  — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [08:50]

5. Tangible Steps for Managers Seeking Joy

a. Find Your “Why” (Purpose)

• Lean Into Self-Reflection:
  • Explore what brings energy and fulfillment; ask, “What is your best and highest use?”
  • Inspired by the Japanese concept of ikigai (reason for being). “Finding your ikigai requires you to lean into deep self-reflection... What is the impact of our work, good or bad, on others?”
    — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [09:56]

b. Embrace a Beginner’s Mindset

• Overcoming Expertise Tunnel Vision:
  • Encourage curiosity and openness to new approaches for yourself and your team.
  • Example: Coaching an expert to reframe a tiresome project with curiosity shifted energy entirely. “As a beginner, let me look at this with a very different light, and 9 out of 10 times we can see something different...”
    — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [12:08]

c. Share Joy and Give Gratitude

• Personal Practices:
  • Maintain a “happy folder” with positive notes and affirmations from others. “Every once in a while I forget... I go and remind myself, ‘Oh, you know what? I’ve actually gotten a few things right. The work I do matters.’”
    — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [13:59]
• Team Practices:
  • Encourage teams to create their own happy folders or “data that matters.”
  • Regularly celebrate small wins and show gratitude.
  • Refer to Simon Sinek: “When we help others, we find lasting fulfillment.” (Paraphrased, [15:59])

d. Model Emotional Contagion—Be Intentional and Consistent

• Vigilant Leadership:
  • Words and energy from the manager can uplift or deflate a team. “We can’t underestimate the impact of how others see us and... our actions and our words have on others.”
    — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [18:16]
• Authenticity and Kindness:
  • Daisy recalls (Google) arriving late to meetings and noticing deference from her team—reminding her of the unintentional power and influence a manager holds.

e. Self-Compassion and Pre-Meeting Rituals

• Lead Yourself First:
  • Positive self-talk and mantras to center before meetings.
  • “When I’m kind to myself, I’m kind to others... I didn’t believe in the power of mantras. I thought they were kind of woo woo things... and I have now become one of the biggest advocates.”
    — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [20:06]

f. Team Rituals and Practices

• Examples of Joy-Boosting Practices:
  • Start meetings with a round of personal questions or gratitude.
  • Use questions like, “If you were to write a book about your life, how would you title it?” or, “What’s the wildest employee request you’ve ever received?” [22:06]
  • Begin one-on-ones by asking: “Do you need me to witness, help, or distract you right now?” (From Xander Grashow)
  • Aim: Build agency, connection, and psychological safety.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Joy vs. Burnout:
  “You may already be feeling burnt out about talking about burnout because it’s become the topic everyone’s talking about.”
  — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [06:32]
• On the Excess Focus on Leaders vs. Middle Managers:
  “We tend to highly focus on leaders, but it’s really the middle managers that are carrying out all of these tasks.”
  — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [05:39]
• On the “Happy Folder”:
  “Recently I was sharing this at a talk I did, and someone referred to it as ‘data that matters.’ And I love that.”
  — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [13:59]
• On Managerial Impact:
  “As managers... we have the power to lighten someone’s day and to also just destroy it, even with best of intentions and unknowingly... It is our responsibility to show up for others.”
  — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [18:16]
• On Knowing It’s Working:
  “You see it in the energy of your team... in how people collaborate. You see it in reduced interpersonal tensions.”
  — Daisy Auger-Dominguez [23:34]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:51] — What “joy” means in a professional context
• [04:31] — How joylessness and burnout show up in managers and teams
• [05:39] — Why middle managers are at particular risk
• [06:45] — Why a joy focus beats a burnout focus
• [09:56] — The importance of “finding your why” for managers
• [12:08] — Embracing a beginner’s mindset
• [13:59] — The power and practice of gratitude and the “happy folder”
• [17:55] — The influence of managers’ words and actions on teams
• [20:06] — Self-kindness and rituals to set the right tone
• [22:06] — Concrete examples for instilling joy and gratitude in teams
• [23:34] — How to know if it’s working (team energy and collaboration)

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Summary Flow & Takeaway

The conversation maintains a tone of empathy, practicality, and hope. Daisy Auger-Dominguez urges managers to begin with self-awareness and self-care, to bring curiosity and gratitude into their management style, and to recognize the influential role they play in shaping team culture. The episode is rich in actionable tips—ranging from introspective exercises to simple meeting rituals—that can help managers shift from a cycle of weariness to one of resilience and authentic connection.

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In sum:
When you’re worn down—and your team is too—the antidote isn’t to ignore the systemic issues, but to exert agency where you can: rediscover your purpose, show gratitude, bring curiosity, and be intentional about the emotional energy you bring to every interaction. Managers have the power to not only survive in tough times, but to help their teams find meaning, connection, and real joy in the work.

Transcript

[Kurt Nickish]

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[HBR On Leadership Announcer]

Hire right the first time post your job for [e-mail] onleadership. Then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistance, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com onleadership to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome to HBR on Leadership. I'm HBR Executive Editor Alison Beard. On this show, we share case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts, hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. We carefully curate this feed from across the HBR portfolio, aiming to help you unlock your next level of leadership. I hope you enjoy the episode.

[Kurt Nickish]

Welcome to the hbr ideacast from harvard business review. I'm kurt nickish.

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Foreign.

[Kurt Nickish]

Being a manager can be a hard job. You're distributing heavy workloads, delegating, shifting priorities, overseeing important tasks, and handling personalities and interpersonal tensions. You have to challenge your team, shield them, and inspire them. No two days are the same, so managing can be powerful and meaningful work. It can also be a grind that wears you down. And if you feel anxious or burnt out as a manager, that can trickle down to your team faster than you realize. Today's guest is here to help managers rediscover the joy in their work and amplify that joy throughout their teams. Daisy Augur Dominguez is a workplace strategist and author. She wrote the HBR article Finding Joy as a Manager Even on Bad Days, and she's here to share some tangible things managers can do to be joyful in their not so easy jobs. Hi Daisy. Thanks for coming on the show.

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

[Kurt Nickish]

So when it comes to your role as a manager, what do you mean by joy? I mean we're not talking about being happy every day at work. How do you think of joy in that context?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

For me, joy is more than just this fleeting feeling. It's about finding deep, sustaining satisfaction in one's work. It's that energy that comes from engaging in meaningful connections, in fostering inclusive environments where people feel seen, heard, and valued in empowering others to thrive. When you see your team in their flow, excited about what they're working on, like that's joy for me, joy at work is closely tied to purpose, to alignment, and to well being.

[Kurt Nickish]

We've often heard the statistics. Right. And there's the annual Gallup employee engagement survey that shows kind of a, I don't know, dismal, very low, sort of a third of employees being engaged in their jobs in the U.S. in your experience, is that different from for managers?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

You know, I think in many ways it's not different. And in many ways it is. When you see low employee engagement signals for managers, it means that something important is missing from their work. And it can be a reflection of various factors. Again, not feeling connected to the work, to their people, unclear expectations from the top that they have to then translate to the rest of their teams. And it can also be. Be a sense of an absence of recognition. Here I am working myself to the bone, and who cares, right? My leaders are not telling me that I'm doing a good job, and my team keeps on complaining about everything that I do.

[Kurt Nickish]

Right, right.

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

I'm failing at everything.

[Kurt Nickish]

Have you seen this in your clients? How does this joylessness manifest?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

I see it in many different forms. I see it in growing in anger and frustration, that sort of snapshot, snaps and moments that you least expected. I see it in a sense of this chronic fear and uncertainty that slows down their creativity, it slows down their productivity, it slows down their decision making. It just wears them down. And when your manager's worn down, inevitably your team ends up getting worn down. Right. That energy gets passed over. And I've seen it in just this growing cynicism about anything that gets put in their. In their lap to do. Like you've done this before. Why is this particularly, you know, causing you more angst than always? And it's this accumulation of all of these moments. What mostly worries me when it comes to this, the lack of joy and dissatisfaction with work, is it gets manifested in anger and frustration that then gets passed on. And it is not just a symptom. It becomes kind of this dark shadow that looms over daily interactions. And you feel it. You definitely feel it.

[Kurt Nickish]

Is this particularly hard for middle managers?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Absolutely. Middle managers are dealing with the relentless pressures from the top and the increasing pressures from the bottom. And by the same token, they're also not getting sometimes even the support from their own peers. We tend to highly focus on leaders, but it's really the middle managers that are carrying out all of these tasks and all of these strategies and that have to bring people together to get the work done. And when they are struggling themselves with lack of clarity, when they're struggling themselves with lack of recogn and resources and support. It's just a recipe for deep, deep burnout.

[Kurt Nickish]

Yeah, you brought up burnout. That's something that, you know, managers have toolkits to try to address. Are you arguing for something a little different here, like focusing more on the positive and trying to tackle burnout without kind of bringing everybody down at the same time?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Yeah, whenever I talk about burnout, I like to, you know, tell folks I'm like, listen, I, I, you may be already feeling burnt out about talking about burnout because it's become the topic everyone's, everyone's talking about.

[Kurt Nickish]

Yeah. And the more you repeat it, it's,

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

yeah, yeah, it just becomes this sort of self fulfilling prophecy, like everything's going to be bad. You know, I, I want to emphasize the, the joy and the lightness that we can have at work because I do believe that that helps reduce burnout. It helps bring people together. Sometimes we just have to find humor in the hamster wheel, right? Like, just know this is a relentless wheel that I'm on. But like, you know what, where can I find some joy in this every day? Goodness. You know, sadly enough, right, A new crisis, a new nightmare is going to come in front of me. A new problem is going to come in front of me that I need to solve for. And so how do I harness my energy and, and my spirit in many ways so that I can be prepared to handle all of these things that are coming at me with the right mindset, with the right level of energy. Right. And hopefully garner the right level of support that I need to, to get done whatever I need to get done. What I don't want to dismiss is that certainly the factors that lead to burnout are systemic failures, right? So overwork, lack of resources, lack of information, all of those pieces are systemic issues, but we can't solve them every minute of the day. And so the reason why I lean on joy is what do I have control over right now? What do I have agency over that I can make this moment at least a little lighter, a little better and be prepared to, when the moment is right, to address the systemic pieces that I, that I can address to try and avoid this in the future? Right? So, so how do I, how do I solve for what's in front of me now and safeguard my health, my well being and that of my team because that's my responsibility as a manager. How do I do that so that I can be better prepared to, to then address the really gnarly systemic issues that need to be addressed so For

[Kurt Nickish]

a manager who's managing sometimes remotely or remote workers, how is that impacting their ability to find and speak joy in their jobs?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

I mean, listen, there's a reason why burnout has become the recurring theme we're all talking about right now. And it is the aftermath of the pandemic and the aftermath of this new way of working. It's much harder when you're on a screen to do the things that we do when we're in a meeting. For example, at the end of a meeting, when you notice that somebody's energy level was low, or you notice that, you know that they were snapping at somebody in a, in a way that they usually don't, where you can just sort of grab them five minutes. I'm like, do we have five minutes? Can we chat? You want to walk around, have a coffee?

[Kurt Nickish]

Yeah, right.

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Like, we just don't, we can't do that. Yes, I can get on a phone and do that, but it's not, it's, it's just not the same. You don't have the same human exchange that most of us need. And that leads to a lack of joy and enthusiasm and just an overall sense of just appreciation for not just the work that you're doing, but the people that you're doing it with.

[Kurt Nickish]

You suggest that if you're a manager and you've lost your joy in your work, there are a number of things that you can do about it, starting with finding your why. Yeah, what does that look like?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Finding your why is one that it sounds kind of very simple, but we forget about it. We forget about why we go to work in the first place. I was really struck with the Japanese concept of ikigai, which really translates to a reason for being. And that's your purpose, that's your sense of satisfaction and fulfillment with what you do. And finding your ikigai requires you to lean into deep self reflection about what are the things that make you happy? And you know that, right? If you're a soccer player and I mentioned a soccer game, I bet you your eyes would light up, right? Energy all of a sudden shifts because this is something that, that's generating happiness for you. You know, what is your best and highest use is one of the questions that I ask leaders often when I'm coaching them. Because that, that makes you want to think about not just what brings you joy, but also what are the skills and the talents that you bring to the forefront. I know what brings me joy is connecting with people and it's helping them find their Purpose and you know, their happiness. And sometimes it's just helping them gain clarity over what, you know, what they need to do next. My highest and best use and when I am doing that, my energy levels are off the charts, right. And I can do that for hours. So securing the answers to those questions but also getting a sense of what do you want to be recognized for, right? Like what is it that you want to do? Do you want to be a leader? Do you want to be a manager? Do you want to be an individual contributor? Right. What is that highest and best use and how does that impact others? We don't spend enough time thinking about what is the impact of our work, good or bad, on others. And when we spend some time going through those, those self reflection questions, I think we get to a place of what we're uniquely good at and what brings us joy and happiness and where we can deliver that to its highest impact.

[Kurt Nickish]

So you lean into that. You also talk about embracing a beginner's mindset, which maybe for managers doesn't feel as intuitive, right? You're not supposed to feel like you're a beginner. You're supposed to know the answers.

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

That's right. That's right. You're supposed to be the expert. We spend our entire careers building expertise and you know, but what happens is that when you're an expert, you look at things with confinement, right? Of like there are two or three ways of doing this and we're going to do it this way versus a beginner's mind that allows you to really embrace curiosity and it allows you to look at things very differently. I talk about embracing a beginner's mindset as not just something that a manager has to do, but as something that you need to encourage your teams to do, right? Kind of channel your inner five year old, ask all the questions, explore new methods, reignite your sense of wonder for anything that is in front of you. I was just coaching a senior manager a couple of days ago, a project that was put in front of him and immediately he became sort of this grumpy, you know, cantankerous, like, you know, I've done this before. This is not going to work. I don't, I don't want to waste my time and energy on this, you know, And I just paused and asked him, okay, what if all of that were true? What does that say about you, right? That you won't try new things, that there is no other way of looking at things. What if we looked at this somewhat differently? What questions would you Ask. And then he started asking different questions. I was like, that's awesome. Okay, so what resources would you need? And by the end of that 15, 20 minute conversation, his mindset had completely shifted to, okay, there's a possibility here that I wasn't seeing. But you have to shift that notion of I know everything to, you know what, there could be something here that I don't know about. Right. As a beginner, let me look at this with a very different light, and 9 out of 10 times we can see something different and approach it differently and get a different outcome.

[Kurt Nickish]

You also argue that sharing joy and giving gratitude is important.

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Yes.

[Kurt Nickish]

Is that more about yourself or with the team?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

It's for both. I talk about it personally about those challenging days where I turn to what I call my happy folder, which is a collection of positive notes and affirmations that basically remind me that my work matters.

[Kurt Nickish]

These are things you've gotten from others?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Yes, yes. These are notes that I received from team members. These are notes that I received from partners, from consultants that I've worked with. Right. Like, over the years, when there's something that really, for me, it tugs at my heart because it's something that makes me feel warm and fuzzy, if you will. Right. I keep those and, and I go to them from time to time because every once in a while I forget. Right. I'm. I'm talking about this as a practice and it's kind of like building a muscle. You know, if you stop working out for a couple of weeks, your muscles start deteriorating a bit and so you have to try it again. And so for me, that happy folder is where I go and remind myself, oh, you know what? Like, I've actually gotten a few things right. Right. I was like, I can, you know, the work that I do matters. Right. The work that I do is what I'm meant to be doing. That's the place that I go to. And as a manager, we can encourage our teams to create their own happy folders, whatever that is. Recently I was sharing this at a talk that I did and someone referred to it as data that matters. And I love that. Right. Like there's. So we're surrounded by so much data, but sometimes we need to look at the data that matters. Right. That really means that something to us. But that, that spreading of gratitude is also about celebrating small victories, sharing moments that mean something to folks. Simon Sinek. I. I'm going to probably say this wrong. I'm going to try and paraphrase him. He. He says something like, when we help ourselves, we find moments of happiness. But when we help others, we find lasting fulfillment. That helping, that, that giving, that showing gratitude to someone, that approaching your relationships with that sense of gratitude and generosity, that's what creates a network of mutual support and growth and in many ways, resilience.

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[Kurt Nickish]

I went back and I listened to an episode that we did with a CEO. It's titled How One CEO Creates Joy at Work, Episode 661. The guest there was Richard Sheridan, and he talked about how easy it is as a manager to create fear. Right. You can easily just walk around and talk to people about what they're working on and when they expect to deliver it, and are they coming in on the weekend to finish it up. And you can easily create fear. And he doesn't want to be that kind of manager, that kind of leader, that kind of CEO. But he also said it just takes constant vigilance to keep sending the right signals and not the wrong ones. Does that sound familiar to you?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Absolutely. We often forget the tremendous influence and power that our words have and that our actions have on others. Right. Sometimes we're human and we'll have a bad day or we'll just be short with someone and all of a sudden that becomes. Becomes the one thing that that person remembers about you all day long.

[Kurt Nickish]

Oh yeah, I have a few of those, yes.

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

And especially because of the role that you play and we may not like it. I know I struggle. I struggled for years. I would, I remember I would go to meetings. And I remember, especially when I worked at Google, I was always running late because we were. We just always scheduled meetings 25 minutes at a time. And I was running from meeting to meeting. And every Time I would go, the front seat was always available to me and people would be sitting in the corner, sometimes on the floor, and I would look around and go, why did save that seat for me? I'm late. My penalty is that I sit on the floor, right? And they will look at me and go, like, well, you're the leader. Like, you're the man. Like, we, we have to create this space for you. And I remember struggling with that so often. And then I just gave up. I stopped asking because they just always did that for me. But we can't underestimate the impact of how others see us and the tremendous impact that our actions and our words have on others. As managers and as leaders, we have the power to lighten someone's day and to also just destroy it with. Even with best of intentions and unknowingly. So, you know, it is our responsibility to show up for others in a way that not just helps give them the clarity and the tools and the resources that they need, but that also helps them feel that they're, that they're cared for, that they're supported, that this is a place that they're meant to be. Those feelings of empathy and fondness that we all crave as humans, we as managers have an opportunity to show that with. And it doesn't take a lot of effort, but it's absolutely requires intention and consistency.

[Kurt Nickish]

So how this looks may vary, you know, team by team or by manager. But what are some of the examples of things that you like to do that you've seen clients do to share joy, give gratitude, and, you know, instill joy in their teams?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

We all lead differently, right? We're all different humans, but we often forget that before we can lead others, we have to lead ourselves. And so I like to think about making sure that I'm being kind to myself, because when I'm kind to myself, I'm kind to others, right? When I say to myself, you did a good job, right? You are worthy. These are mantras that I say to myself. And I have to be perfectly honest, before I wrote my last book, burnt out to lit up, I didn't believe in the power of mantras. I thought they were kind of woo woo things. And I was like, ah, you know, that's not me. And I have now become one of the biggest advocates and I have mantras all over my office that just help me get centered before I go and have a conversation with someone else, before I go coach someone, before I go lead a meeting so that I can go into that Space showing up as my best self, right. So that I can help create a space so that everybody else can show up as their best selves.

[Kurt Nickish]

And that keeps you from being defensive or getting short in the meetings that you're about to have?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Yes, it, it helps you come into a space. How many times have you been in a meeting when the manager rushes in and they're like, they're just going through all the talking points and you can see that they're bothered. All of a sudden the tenor in that, in that meeting changes. People may have been laughing before and cracking jokes and all of a sudden everyone gets tense. Everyone, you know, it's. It just that that energy gets spread so quickly. So why not do the counter of that, right? Why not just do two to three minutes and I, and I do this. Whether it's an in person meeting or whether it's a video meeting, it's just, okay, how do I want to show up? Right? Let me go into that meeting with the right mindset, the right energy so that we can get done what we're going to get done and so that people leave that meeting feeling better than they did before they got there.

[Kurt Nickish]

Any other favorite things that you've seen clients do that you've seen other managers do to celebrate their teams, to show gratitude, to find joy for them?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

I mean, these are simple things. And I used to do this and one of my team members, I can't remember who I borrowed it from, but before every meeting we would spend five to 10 minutes answering a different question every week. That was a very personal question. Kind of like when you were young. What did you dream of being? If you were to write a book about your life, how would you title it for HR colleagues? What's the wildest employee request you've ever received? Questions like that. Everybody goes around the room. It can usually take five to 10 minutes. But it's this really great energy setter for folks. Moments of. Oh, you feel that way too, right? That that energy moment. I think that those are whether it's questions like that, whether it's starting out your meetings with a gratitude round where everybody goes around and just says some one thing that they're grateful for either on a team member or that happened that week. Whether it's making sure that every time you start your one on ones instead of going right into the agenda. I have a colleague of mine, Xander Grashow, who's an executive coach, who taught me this line and I love it. It's do you need me to witness help or distract you right now. And the energy changes from that person serving you to you giving agency to somebody else to actually ask for what they need to do their work better. So those are just a few examples of phrases and activities that we can all undertake to create spaces where our teams can truly thrive.

[Kurt Nickish]

How do you know when this is working?

[Daisy Augur Dominguez]

Oh my gosh. You see it in the energy of your team, not just in the output and the delivery, which is that productivity piece, whether we're all so keen on. But you see it in how people collaborate. You see it in the energies. You see it in reduced interpersonal tensions, most of the tensions that as managers and leaders we need to resolve for this person doesn't like this person or this person's not delivering their project on time and so then this person is still waiting for it. When you see a reduction in that is when people are really, truly working together in a way that they're managing their energy, they're managing their resources, and they actually trust and enjoy working with each other. You absolutely see that in it. And it's not a result just on work output, it's a result of energy in your team. And it's the people that say, hey, we need to stay an extra three hours. I got you, right? I'm gonna do this instead of I'm sorry, I'm out, I did not sign up for those extra three hours and you need to find somebody else. You see that in those moments and you see that as a collective experience across the teams.

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